Demystifying Accounting Concepts for Law Firms

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Lynda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Stephen Libhart.

Hello everybody and welcome back to the podcast. Hope you're all doing well today. How are you guys today, Lynda and Sarah?

Great.

Very, very well. Very well. It's great to be here.

I got my second wind of energy after having— I got to class this morning for Working out, and I'm like, do you know it's Monday? Monday should not be this hard.

Oh, no kidding. No kidding.

Yeah, I don't know why, but she's like, the more you whine and moan, the more it's going to be like that. I'm like, okay, never mind.

Whatever, huh?

Yeah.

Well, we probably should jump right in, and I feel like we should have like some spooky music and some clouds rolling around real slow on the screen because today we're going to talk about demystifying accounting concepts for law firms. This is our Halloween episode in January.

I was gonna say, Steve, we, we were on our way to the gym this morning, my husband and I. It was like a Halloween moon this morning.

Oh, that explains it.

Yeah, so it's funny that you say that.

Ty's back.

Gosh, yeah, Ty's back. There you go, there's my Halloween moon.

There we go. So how do we demystify accounting for law firms? So boy, this is a good one. And you know, I'm teaching at the, at our bar association tomorrow, and a lot of these things I'm talking about, so Because attorneys quite often don't know what some of this verbiage is and they're afraid to say so.

Yeah, because they don't want to look dumb. And when they do ask a question, you can tell that they're kind of hesitant and they really want to know. That's the biggest thing.

Yeah.

You could start with just what's the difference between a trust account and IOLTA trust, IOLA, let's give it lots of names and acronyms, and an operating or payroll or any of the other bank accounts. I mean, the IOLTA, I just recorded a video on this exact topic because I don't talk about IOLTA in the blogs. Every— like, that's like the major topic. But, uh, if you think about it, they're separate accounts. They have separate purposes. The IOLTA account's holding money that doesn't belong to you until you've earned it. So I think that's the biggest catch. And there's a lot of rules governing it, and you have to look at your local jurisdiction for those rules, as well as your bar association. All these things that you want—

And where you practice, if you have multi-state.

You have to have more than one bank account. Typically, you can't just throw it all in one and call it a day. If you practice in Washington State and then you're in Oregon, you need to have separate bank accounts for that and separate offsetting accounts. So your liability account should be separated. That's going to save your derriere when you're trying to reconcile it, because now you're reconciling just this bank account and just this bank account. And it's going to make it easier to make sure, you know, that it, you know, it's fine with Issues are if it doesn't balance.

Absolutely. And, and, you know, why do we have to reconcile it? And how, you know, I was watching one of your recordings the other day, Lynda, and you were talking about if the bar says reconcile it every 3 months, do it every month. Don't just wait for 3 months.

Well, you know what, we've got bigger accounts and we soft reconcile. Like, we just kind of go in and reconcile it along the way, because if it's big, it can be a big task, and it's easier to find things weekly on a smaller one than Looking at like a big once a month or a quarter. I can't imagine doing quarterly. I mean, you have to be really small.

Yeah, you'd have to be. Well, and also some firms have like these flat rates or these recurring amounts. So you're charging these recurring amounts, but how do you know that everyone's aligning based on the payment processing, based on the, you know, if you're asking for the same retainer amount, no problem. But we just have to make sure the 5 different people you asked from, 4 of them paid. One was not paid yet. Are we matched up correctly? And that those liabilities align. So—

Well, and, you know, to your point, Lynda, a minute ago about knowing what the regulations are wherever you're practicing law in those different places, some of them will have billing requirements. Like if you're flat feeing accounts and you're earning in different levels when, you know, different things are done, what you have to do to bill. And then when you take trust money and, you know, all those sorts of things and that, that can become Very confusing for attorneys.

And the timing is important too, because you have to make sure that if you're billing and you're moving the funds, you know, you don't want to be letting it on paper move the funds but not physically move the funds.

Correct.

Correct. Which is something we see quite often. That's out of compliance when you do that.

That's jumping the gun.

Yeah. And I think a lot of times people don't look at it that way. They think, well, I'm not really— I'm not keeping them. I'm not doing anything wrong. But you are, because you're not recognizing the revenue if the money never physically moves over. And it's really hard on us to have all that hanging stuff when we're trying to keep your records clean and pristine, you know.

Yeah, that can be construed as a, you know, an accounting mistake right there. And, you know, sometimes, especially with new attorneys— the class I'm teaching at our bar tomorrow is all new attorneys.

And that'll be fun.

No, yeah, it is. I've been doing it for about 16 years, but the word commingling always gets these looks in their eyes like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just really define that for me. And I, you know, I try to dive deep into that.

Well, you have also the opportunity to accidentally— somebody wants to pay you and they pay you in your operating account, and that was really intended for trust. How quickly are you handling it? Are you marking it correctly? I mean, it's not earned. So at that point, you really do— some people try to say, well, I just, I left it there and then I earned it like later that month in the billing cycle. Well, That's not the proper workflow. That doesn't work. And it's so fast for you to lose that money and get it commingled into your own stuff. So—

And some states require you to do that transaction like quick. You're not supposed to just leave your stuff and say, I'll do that on the weekend. You actually have to book stuff in. If you look at some of the rules and regulations, they require you to get the data in. Absolutely.

Consulting one that happened the other way. I'll just put all my consulting money in trust. It's earned. Go put it back.

Exactly, exactly.

Well, they're afraid of the trust going the other way, the other way. So they're figuring— what do they call it? A cushion.

A cushion. That was the word.

We hear the cushion word a lot, like, oh no, no, but that's because they don't have proper records. And usually the proper record keeping comes with hiring a professional to make sure we take care of it. We let you sleep at night because we're handling making sure everything gets booked in properly.

Well, you know, while you're on that subject, you know, this is something to demystify. When— and you guys run into this all the time, and so do we— when is the appropriate time to bring a legal accounting professional into your fold, if you will? I want to hear what you guys have as an answer.

Can I ask, when is it not?

Exactly. Exactly. We're one of the first people that should be brought onto the team.

They're just like the newbies you're going to be teaching to tomorrow.

Correct.

Um, those people— I'm always amazed when someone comes to us and said, I am just starting my business, I haven't done anything, I've set up the bank account, I've got the FEIN, and I don't want to do any of this without your help. I'm always impressed with a client that does that because, you know, I know I might be too small. I'm like, no, you might not be too small, we certainly can help you out. And then help them set it up the right way because it's so easy to set it up the wrong way and it's not what they do, that's not what they were schooled in. And to have somebody that knows how to hook it all up. It's not easy to map in Clio to QuickBooks or Clio to Xero. You got to know what to put, what accounts. And if you're not even that familiar with the chart of accounts, how do you— how are you going to know how to record it? And then if you don't record it properly, guess what? All the data is going in the wrong buckets, and you don't want that either.

So the question I have is, even if you were, you know, like you took your accounting classes and so forth and you learned it, is that really what you're wanting to do when you open your law firm? Exactly. Like, that's the biggest question I always have. It's like No, you went to— you retained this high-level degree for a reason, and you sought out for other reasons, and this is not where you should be spending your time. It's great for you to know. We always like to be super transparent as much as possible with— this is your business, this is how it runs, these are the figures. But, um, life happens. Things can happen. You get busy fast. You never know how fast you'll get.

Exactly.

Um, yeah, exactly.

So, and if you get into that mindset of, oh, I can handle the books, I'm going to be fine— I've seen it so many times where they get so granular on setting up the chart of accounts and setting it up incorrectly. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about, where they'll just— they'll, they'll have a line item for every single thing that happens and people's names and, you know, all kinds of stuff on the chart of accounts. And, you know, the poor tax preparer then has a mess to try to unravel. You know, what is Susie Jones? What does that mean on this chart of accounts? You know, it happens.

It's so true. Like Staples, OfficeMax, I'm like, why?

Well, Steve, how many—

Well, I wanna track 'em.

How many marketing accounts do you need?

Oh, how many sub-marketing accounts?

Yeah.

How many?

We've seen a lot.

And travel, and travel and entertainment.

But you can actually go in, like the reason they think they need to do that is they think they need to track like how many Google AdWords did they do? How many things did they do on Facebook? That's a good point, yeah. You can put it into marketing and then sort by the vendor transactions to get that information. You don't want that all stated on your chart of accounts. That makes a lot of work. I mean, it just makes for an ugly chart of accounts. Yeah. Just like you said, people's names on it. I don't want to see anybody's name on the chart of accounts. I really don't. Maybe in the balance sheet with the partners equity section, okay. But the rest of it, I don't need to see them on the profit and loss at all. There should be no names there. And we see that sometimes. It's like, just looks like somebody doesn't know what they're doing.

Basically, it's the thing I think it's crazy too, is you're looking at the practice areas and revenue is revenue, and your practice management system is going to track those practices if you're set up correctly.

So you don't need it there on the—

Why are you being redundant with the redundant work? To your point, it's, it's a lot of work. So, but not to take away from what you were just going to say, Steve, I just thought that that was an interesting thing. We always see that and I'm like, okay, I get it. You have 4 or 5 different practice areas. Do you know how much time it takes for Like parse that out.

Absolutely. And I forgot what I was gonna say, but that's okay, it'll come back.

Oh shoot, I'm so sorry.

Oh no, no, no, no, that's okay. But you know, just that—

Why don't you do the cash flow and the profit? Why don't you talk about that?

The profit as far as, help me out here, where you're going.

Oh, I was just gonna say with the profit and loss, and this is a question you're gonna get probably in the next week or two. I've got this much money on my profit and loss, how come it's not in my bank account?

Where's my—

why isn't it in my bank account? Because some of it's on the balance sheet under your equity when you take a draw, you know. Um, some of it's in your assets.

Well, I didn't take that much out, Steve. I didn't take that much out last year.

Well, let's go look at it.

Yep.

And then also it's like you get that deadpan of silence. Did you, did you not take your boat out and pay for it out of company money? Oh yeah, I did that. And now, did you buy this or did you buy that? Or did you have Netflix? Did you You start adding that up, it adds up so fast.

And then all of a sudden it's like, hmm. The people that just go out to restaurants and take their families and everything and then put it in the firm as meals, you know, it's like, ooh, be careful. A lot with attorneys.

Yeah.

Well, and be aware of all the big changes that have happened for 2026 and changes that occurred for 2025 mid-year. I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot to jump through. It's a lot to Keep your eye on the ball and practice law, and then remember what you have to work to for your financials, because your financials of your person— if your business affects your personal life and the whole thing comes together. So do you want that whole weight in addition to running a firm and all of that? Those are the questions I think are, are the concepts of ideas of like, what, what makes sense for you to spend your time? Is it good for you to build the client, do the work, build the client, collect the money, and book it on there in the books, and then All the other things.

And meanwhile, you're missing $200 or $300 an hour that you might start, or even more, you know, that you might charge your clients. I mean, you need to focus on what you're good at and let us do the backend work for you. And the 2 combined together will really make you profitable.

Anybody in the profession, any accounting professional that's in this, that practices this niche, will be able to support you really, really well.

Not—

I mean, we, we're sitting, the 3 of us, as a reference, but just There are not very many, but there are a few of us out there that do this niche.

Yeah, we had quite a few of them in the Law Lab. We all love it. It's so fun to watch if somebody brings it, like on the week we do ask us anything. And we're sitting there and we're asking, you know, the questions that come. And then a lot of them will go, this is why we like being in this group, because we get to figure things out, things that are real life things that you kind of odd things that can come along the way. And with the collective mindset of the group. And the fun thing is to watch how everybody really figures things out.

Yeah.

Because they are all doing the same kind of work as us. They're all facing the same problems. And I think that sometimes having that ability to hire somebody at that level of the people that are in our group, it makes a big difference because you don't have to spend time explaining what's an IOLTA, what is it for. I mean, these are the things you don't have to explain. What's a client? fee or a client cost? Where does that go on the books? There's a lot of things that legal accounting has that's different than, um, regular accounting. And, and it's the fact that you've got the knowledge base behind it. Yeah, we probably charge more than the regular bookkeeper, but we're going to give you a better result.

Absolutely.

I had a California CPA once, just, it was a random conversation. I, I forget how we got connected. We didn't have a mutual client. And said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I work with attorneys, and started asking me questions. And I was like, I could clearly, very succinctly—

You knew.

Realize no, no, and no. Why the heck are you working with them? You're advising incorrectly on advanced client cost. You're advising incorrectly on the trust account. You're booking things in journal entry at the year end in the incorrect way. That's not how you handle trust funds with operating and as a business. It is not the same business. I'm sorry, friends. And there's so much compliance and needs that happen inside these firms. You can't just brush it under in a journal entry. Just doesn't work.

No, and that's something we see sometimes too. A lot of times somebody will be like, my, my, uh, account isn't— I'm having trouble getting this trust account balanced. And we just had this conversation not that long ago. And, um, it goes back years, sometimes more than a decade. The problem started back when they first started. And then you have to go in and detangle that. And I think a lot of times when you start working with clients, They don't understand the brevity of the problem because you have to really nail down where the issue is. And there's not a lot of people out there that know how to fix that properly, because if it's a closed period and a closed accounting period, how does that— how is that reflected? How is that corrected?

Yeah.

And a lot of times, you know, they don't, they don't really pay attention to it. And the answer from the attorney in which we've had this conversation, they'll say, Well, I'll just open up a new bank account. And we're like, no, because we don't know what's in the old one, and you're going to move all the money over to the new one. This is the same problem. We have to move it over, and if we don't know where it goes, then we don't have a way to make sure it's correct. That's not the resolution to the problem. It's not going to fix the issue. I mean, that's not a way to fix it.

Well, I guess, Steve, I could ask you, you move it to a new one, I guess. Do you understand what's left in the old one? As far as like what's uncleared? What's—

Well, once you move, once you move it over and lock me out of the bank account, I can't go in and pull statements and do all kinds of detective work, you know. No, no, no, please don't do that. And then, you know, that's one of the toughest things to explain to an attorney that wants to do that because they just— and this is part of the demystifying— they just want it to go away, you know, wave the wand and it's gone.

And in their mind, that fixes it, right?

And I always use the comparison with them, you know, when you, when you bring on a new case into your law firm, you don't just wave the wand. You really have to dig and what all the details are and do all the research and go out to LexisNexis or whatever and find the case studies on what you're, you're doing for your client so that you know how to proceed. And that's the same thing we're doing with your trust account. Don't, please don't open a new bank account and say, okay, I'm just moving the money and we're fixed.

And then how do we find out that the bank account is, is that you had a new one? Because all of a sudden there's a new one with a whole slew of transactions and the old one's broken and you go, can you please turn, you know, can you please reconnect it? And they go, oh, I closed that. I can't get that to reconnect. And then you're like, you did what?

And then it's a little bank up in the, out in the country somewhere that, you know, doesn't keep their records.

I'm, I'm cracking up because we're chatting and I'm looking out and I'm thinking about the, the squirreling method of all of these things. And there's a whole family of squirrels running up the street in front of me. But I'm like, that's exactly what—

I got my squirrel.

I know, right?

You know, that's how it got me.

There's, that's what's happening when you're doing that method and you're not being honest about it. Plus it, it does put you into a compromised position of compliance too, because Because now that you've— have you let people know that you've changed bank accounts? If you had uncleared items, how do you deal with that?

That's the other thing.

We have money in transit. Did you let the merchant account provider know? When did you move those funds? There's no shortcut, cookie-cutter way to doing this. So, so being diligent about it. I also think that the thing that firm owners, when we've— Lynda and I've talked to them, it's like, what do you see? Well, they're looking at a P&L and they're looking at a balance sheet. Are you, are you evaluating that trust account? Are you looking at that trust 3-way if you've been provided it? Have you actually looked at it? Has it been brought to your attention, the things that you need to be handling? And I'm not saying it's a great time to point fingers. Somebody did this wrong, this wrong.

No, you don't want to do that. But you want to have a— we have project lists, so we have a specific workflow with a project list, and it's got columns and dropdowns in it. This means you need to move money from trust to operating, or Operating to trust, and then the notes why and, you know, where it's off, trying to figure it out. And we've got, of course, we've got the Life Love forms.

So that it's good that we put those things out there, but we ask you to verify too. Yes, correct. Correctly. Right. I mean, that's always— it's not an offense to us if we're being questioned to reevaluate. It makes more sense for us to go back and just double check. Did we see it the same way? Because, you know, like, A lot of people, one person could pay for a family of people depending on the type of law firm. One, you know, business could pay for a lot of people's businesses as far as like individual needs at a legal status level. So it's hard to know what, where is the documentation. And I think that's number one thing too, is getting documentation in the right place.

Mm-hmm.

And, and looking, I really feel like where it is part of the accounting process is looking at the practice management process.

Yeah.

And owning that correctly and then helping get the accounting process in line. It's a domino effect.

You know, you're correct. I've seen firms where they let their, their billing system, their, you know, the billing software just go crazy and never reconcile anything. And then they'll bring us in and we try to tie things back and they're like, oh, well, we just, we never close out those old accounts and, you know, we're never going to collect those balances. I ran into one, a huge one like that once, and I was like, oh my gosh. We have to start from the beginning. We have to start from the beginning and do this all over and clean this up. And it was quite a project.

And the rules do— I'm sorry, Linda. I was thinking, like, don't you find this funny about the interest rates charging the interest charges?

Oh my God.

I'm so not down with that.

Fine. You want to do it, but let's— I mean, it just lingers and lingers. It's a volume effect, right?

Well, you know, to, uh, to our attorney friends out there, we're not here to pick on you on this next comment I'm gonna make, but, um, I have seen— I've been working with attorneys for 25 years now or whatever, and I have seen this trend in all of those years that they get so tied up in credit card fees and bank fees and chasing $5 here and $10 there as opposed to paying attention to a $1,000 over here. You know, it's just, it's just crazy how they get hung up on those fees. And yeah, clients, legal clients are not accustomed to paying credit card fees. They feel like they're being nickeled and dimed. And, you know, there's this, this feeling out there, for lack of better words, that attorneys, you know, I'm gonna go get an attorney and oh my gosh, he's gonna charge me all this money and blah, blah, blah. And then me as the attorney says, well, by the way, Sarah, You have to pay a credit card fee on top of it, so it's gonna be another $45. Oh my gosh, you just blew several thousand dollars right there.

The only time I feel comfortable enough for that, if I'm willing to pay, uh, with the municipality paying like my property taxes, I gotta pay it. If I want to do a credit card, that's the only way I can do it. I usually go to the opposite, that I pay it ahead and get the discount. But if you— that's the only place I ever feel like anybody else tries to push that fee on me, I do feel insulted. And I think that with attorneys, they already have a bad rap for these long line item invoices and stuff. If you want to keep a good rapport with your clients, which is helping you build your base— because if you ask most attorneys, where do you get your clients? Referral. I'm referral-based.

Great.

You think that doesn't leave a bad taste in their mouth that they're being nickel and dimed? And every time you talk on the phone, it's, you know, $350, $450 an hour, and, and you don't feel like the work— it's staying Just staying in contact with the client is a big deal that an attorney can do. Just communicating. Because you take this big upfront retainer and then you don't hear from them. And then the biggest complaint from the client is, I don't know anything that's going on. And then the next thing you know, it's the end of the case and you have to cough up more money or they're not going to finish the job for you. It's like, wait a minute, I don't even know what you've done. And I get bills, you know.

It's an emotional thing. Working with an attorney for the clients quite often is an emotional thing. And when there's these surprises that are tossed in or the radio silence that you're talking about, you know, both of those can create more angst for the client. And I just, I'm just not down with charging credit card fees in a law firm. I always—

Isn't it Clio's, their annual report? That was one of the things that people complained about was the fact that they're non-responsive at all. And somebody said, I think one of the, at ClioCon, somebody said, attorneys, you want to be better than all the other ones and you want to get all these great leads? Answer your phone. Answer the phone. People want you to answer the phone. Have a system that they can reach you and contact you. And I thought to myself, wow, that's as simple as it gets, right?

Simple as old school.

But, um, yeah, it's so funny that something so easy is—

I guess going back to what you both were saying, because I feel like we're all 3 of us are in the same bucket, we always often hear, well, I'm going to switch to this merchant provider because I can have the client pay for the fees. Okay, where's the value as far as if you're offering to your point, Steve, sometimes it's an emotional thing. Other times, okay, you're the attorney is, is making a payment plan for you so that you can make it affordable, right? The package is at—

Yeah, good point.

Okay, that's fine then. Oh, I understand the need to want to say, hey, for that convenience, I'm going to ask that you pay that credit card fee. That's understandable. But on these bigger ticket ones, I get it. But if you think about it, you're a lawyer yourself. How do you want to pay for all the other services? You want your points. It goes both ways. I feel like we're in a, in an interesting conundrum here where we're saying, hey, wake up.

And well, do you guys remember, did you work in the time, at the period of time when they weren't allowed to take credit card payments?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. And that was a big deal when that came along.

Yeah.

You know, and it changed a lot. I mean, cash flow.

Yeah, exactly.

That's what I was going to say, Mr. Attorney. Your cash flow just— the door just opened up and now you want to charge them a fee for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is in that same report that Lynda brought up, the Legal Trends Report. It talks about the convenience of paying. And so it's interesting. Now, mind you, I get it. It's very frustrating right now because fees are ridiculous. Um, it feels like every time you turn around, you're paying a little extra for here and a little extra for there. So I understand. But I, I agree, there's, there's some kind of balancing, um, act to this whole thing. And if we were to have a conversation with people like us and say, hey, look, let's see what it looks like. You know, if, if you, if you want to do the test model and you want to test it out, let's see how quickly you're collecting. Where's your cash flow?

I like that.

You know, if that's what you want to try, um, or how, what's your turnover rate? Like, are your clients staying with you? Is the referral bucket still happening?

Sure.

I mean, if you're at the top of your game, you're going to have a lot of referrals for—

Well, you, you guys know that I'm an Airstreamer. I run around in my Airstream.

Yeah.

I'm the treasurer. I'm the treasurer of our Airstream club. And now that's a nonprofit. That's a whole different scenario. We do pass the credit card fees on because we're, we're a nonprofit. We don't, we don't make any profit. That makes sense. Yeah, you know, but for these high-tech, you know, like to your point a while ago, Lynda, when I go into a restaurant and I see that they're going to charge me the credit card fee, it's very offensive.

Yeah, it is.

It's off-putting.

Yeah.

And when you start to look at it, when you go out to a restaurant, you see there's a lot of things added onto that thing. I'm like, what the heck are all these things?

You know, try a hotel.

I know, right? Yeah, you have to like figure out like, what am I paying for exactly? Okay, what was the actual price of the meal? And then, you know, I'm— we're kind of cherry picking, but, uh, it's that same kind of concept. Um, there's a lot of demystifying accounting concepts that we could probably cover as we go along throughout the year of 2026, and maybe we just highlight them as tips.

Yeah, I like that idea because I have a whole list that we didn't even get to today.

So, well, I'm sure you do, Steve.

Steve loves his lists.

It's, you know, Mr. KPI here. So, but I hope everybody today, we hope you got a lot of information out of this. And, you know, obviously reach out to us. Tiara is going to share some information with you. And, and for those of you that Lynda mentioned, the Law Lab, you know, if you're new to law firm accounting, don't let that intimidate you at all what we talked about today, because when you come into the Law Lab, you are in a safe environment and you get to ask all kinds of questions. To help you out. And I love it that you brought that up and how you described that, Linda. So thank you.

You crack me up, Steve, because we started out with spooky. This is a scary episode. No, now he's blurry.

Now you're safe because we did this.

Now you're safe.

You will forever be safe.

Bing.

There you go.

Take it away, Tiara.

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Thank you.

Bye, everybody.

We'll see you later.