Episode 139- A talk about homeschooling with Manisha Snoyer (she/her) from the "Teach Your Kids" podcast

Hello. Welcome to another episode of Unpacking Neuroqueerness. This is your host, George Muniz Gund. Today I have another special guest on the podcast, Manisha Snoyer. We're going to talk a little bit about homeschooling and Manisha's platforms and a little bit about her work and her history. Welcome, Manisha.

Thank you so much, George. I'm honored to be here on your wonderful show.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you. So my first question I wanted to ask you is tell us a little bit about yourself and what got you into the homeschooling world.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for asking. So I really think fell into the homeschooling world by accident. I never imagined in a million years that this would be the area that I would be focusing on. But what happened is early on, I started my career in my twenties as an actress and I was auditioning for a lot of shows. And like many young actors, I was not making a dime on my acting. And so I thought about, you know, what other skills do I have? And like many actors, decided to start tutoring. So I ended up tutoring children in many different subjects. I taught French, math, sat, sat 2. And as I taught more children, the subjects kind of just layered on until I knew how to teach 18 different subjects. And it's kind of teaching is a bit like languages where once you teach one subject you can start teaching other subjects. And and then I started also teaching in school. So I taught in some very elite private schools and I also taught in public schools. And I was a sub for the New York City school system. I taught in the bilingual schools. And so that really gave me a chance to see the entire spectrum of the education system, ranging from these schools that costed $60,000 a year to a attend and were supposed to be, you know, the best education money to buy to some really great public schools. But, you know, everywhere I went, it felt like the education system was completely broken. In, you know, in Brooklyn, I was in a great public school where a lot of kids had IEPs and it was me and 30 kids. Sometimes there was a teacher's aide. I wasn't really prepped on the learning differences of the different children. I was mostly focusing on behavioral management. In some other public schools that weren't as good quality, it was just basically people coming in and yelling at the kids all the time. No one seemed to be enjoying learning. And it was very clear that these kids were just going to leave school and go to prison, which Made me feel really angry. And then in the elite private schools, the kids were just competing so intensely with each other that the parents were getting four hours of tutoring a day. People were crying because they were so worried about the sat. And I just felt like, this is a disaster. And so at a certain point, I decided to stop acting. And I thought, you know, how do I want to make an impact in the world? And so I decided to focus on education. And I realized that in Brooklyn, there was a whole movement of parents who were starting what were called homeschool co ops. Now, sometimes we refer to those as micro schools or learning pods, which is essentially group of parents gets together, hires a teacher, and then the kids would go to school two or three days a week, and the rest of the time, they would homeschool. And I thought this was kind of cool because it was cost effective. It was these wonderful learning environments where parents, some of the kids were doing dance and. And art and math. And I was really surprised when I started discovering this movement that the parents were very different than I imagined. They were not religious, they were not kind of anti establishment. They were people in tech and artists and entrepreneurs who just felt like, I can do better than what private or public school has to offer. And so at the same time, I was a host on Airbnb. And so that gave me the idea, well, what if I kind of started Airbnb for education? So I would kind of a marketplace where teachers could start their own small homeschool co ops, and you could get around all the legislation of starting a private school by kind of doing this hybrid model. So I started a company called Cottage Class, and that was the marketplace for micro schools. We ended up starting a lot of really cool education alternatives. Many of the children came to us, did have, you know, autism or ADHD or anxiety and. Or mental health issues. And then once they got into these tiny schools, they just thrived. And so that was really exciting. But as I did that, I kind of just became even more and more interested in homeschooling. And I felt like even with these schools, in some ways, they were kind of recreating school in a way they didn't need to. And I was really excited by the fact that these parents were taking the power back over their children's education and really curating it to be whatever they wanted it to be. So that led me to start my second company, Modulo, which is a platform where families can find curriculum resources. Homeschool co ops design their children's education, get support, and I'VE built a curriculum planner with 200 different archetypes of students, different special needs, different preferences around learning. And so that's what it's evolved to today, is just even much more modular than the original approach. And then recently I founded the Teacher Kids podcast and online homeschooling community. Because I think that one thing I've learned is that just community is kind of at the core. Core of all of this. I mean, there's so much pain and violence in our world, and school is one way to make community, but it's created communities that are very clicky and exclusive. Whereas what I've seen in the homeschooling environment is very inclusive, loving, supportive, diverse communities. And people are uniting around that shared value of education, which makes the communities even more strong. They're sharing skills, they're sharing resources. So community has really become my main focus today.

Yeah. Wow, wonderful. Because I. And I think I can certainly relate to the importance of community, but I think the right kind of community, because I have noticed that in traditional schools, like, because people talk a lot about, you know, one of the main points they use to defend traditional schooling is the. The community aspect. But from my experience, and from what I understand, from what I've gathered, the experience of other neurodivergent, either autistic or ADHD or dyslexic students or beyond that, we don't. We tend to not have, like, good experiences with those circles because it's very standardized and very molded, and they're usually not very accommodating. Like, I remember when I went. And I think it's like, because I've gone to school back in Brazil and then also a little bit here in the US and both places, as far as I remember, particularly during grade school, it was really hard to get accommodations. I remember my parents advocating really hard for me to be able to use a computer. And it was. The school would not allow it. And it was, you know, considered a, you know, a very good school. It was a private school in Brazil. And like, you know, they. They called themselves, like, very inclusive and everything, but then they didn't want to let me use the computer because they felt like it would somehow take away. Because I. I see that argument a lot about they say it would take away from the other kids or that they say that the other kids would need it because they're assuming that everyone is the same and has the same needs. So. Yeah. And I've just noticed in general, like, in these circles, like, it's important to have, like, community around the same with people that are doing the same thing. Yeah, because then we all kind of understand each other. And it's the same way of, like, of what I found just socially, like, because a lot of people talk about their college years as being, like, I don't know, their high school years or their college years as being, like, very, like, where they did most of their socializing. And it's interesting because for me and a lot of other people, it was a struggle to socialize during those years because everyone else was so different and, like, following these other molds. And then it was when I discovered the neurodivergent community online, and I started interacting with. Not that, you know, like, I've had other friends because, like, I. It happens to be that I'm also an actor. And. And so I've had acting friends as well. But even so, like, I feel like there's just a different level of understanding with the neurodivergent community because we have so such similar experiences and similar ways of seeing the world. And. Yeah, that leads me into my next question. When. What. What was your first experience or contact with neurodivergent kids? And what motivated you to. To, like, come up with the system that best fit. Fit their needs? What were some of those. Some of those needs? And how did you, like, adjust compared to the other students?

Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think, you know, when I was growing up, I'm a bit older than you. There were a lot fewer children being diagnosed with learning disabilities or different needs. And in my own experience going through school, I felt incredibly isolated and weird and didn't really have any friends until I got to college. So I can certainly empathize with that feeling. And the way that the school environment is set up is just really not conducive for socializing in that students are sitting in desks and they have 30 minutes of this incredibly loud recess. There's no type of room for anyone who has a sensory processing issue or needs to kind of step in or step out or thrives better with screen time. So I really want to acknowledge that. And one of the biggest insights I had almost only recently is that there's this huge love of kind of a peer culture right now in our society that the kids need to be around their peers the same age, which is, like, completely debunked by all child developmental psychologists. And children need to form healthy attachments with their primary caregiver, and that provides the foundation for connecting with all kinds of people. So I did want to mention that. So in terms of my own relation to this community, I mean, first of all, there's me. And, you know, I think, although I haven't gotten a diagnosis, I connect most with being perhaps twice exceptional and having imposter syndrome around that, but going, you know, as a teacher, often when you're tutoring kids, you're encountering kids who do have learning disabilities or might be diagnosed as gifted. So they are the students who are really not fitting in well with the traditional school system. So I encountered a lot of anxiety. You know, some kids were gifted or proudly gifted or had sensory processing issues. And then once I was in the process, public schools, I taught in a lot of classes with IEPs. So you really see the whole spectrum. Autism, dyslexia, ADHD, sensory processing disorder. And then, you know, and then it's kind of natural. Homeschooling is still such a bold choice that the people who are going to make that leap are really quite desperate. And it seems that the most desperate are children who have been diagnosed with learning disabilities. So it's natural that within that community, there's a high number of children who are on the autism spectrum who have sensory processing 2E, dyslexia, gifted, profoundly gifted. So that has been a lot of my experience. And then in terms of how I supported those families during the pandemic, what I did is I started talking to a lot of families about their needs, and I was trying to see. See what types of curriculum would work best with different children. And so in addition to talking to families, I also was doing a lot of research within the Facebook homeschooling groups. And, you know, a parent would say, hey, my son has dysgraphia and sensory processing disorder. We're looking for a writing curriculum. And other parents would jump in and say, oh, my son has the same issue, and you could try this. And then so I kind of started noting that, and then I did so started doing a lot of interviews with different parents, and I was able to kind of narrow my questions down to five or six and always find a curriculum that the child would love. And so from, you know, it might be okay, they're on the spectrum and they love nature or they have dyslexia and they love video games. They're going to like this particular app. And so from there, I built 200 different archetypes and was able to build a curriculum planner for children who had learning differences.

Fantastic. What were, like, some of the main things that weren't being like, even the kids that did have IEPs, what was what were like some of the main things that weren't being. Would you, would you say that weren't being really honored by the traditional schools?

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, first of all, I just have to say school is just so boring. So anyone who needs any level of sensory input is not going to thrive there. Any child who is kinesthetic is going to have an extremely difficult time sitting at a desk and writing. Like just as an example, if a child stands up during a class and starts walking around the classroom, that child will probably get punished. But that child, that's actually how that child is learning.

Exactly.

And you know, and your example of the computer, you know, I know not every student on the spectrum, but some students on the spectrum do really well on the computer, especially with video games. And it's just really, it's really difficult to differentiate learning for a group of 30 students, but especially with a group of children with special, special needs. And, and I'll give an example. So I was the music teacher at this one school and I'm, I've always liked to make things a little wild and fun. And there was this one kid, a four year old, and he just could not stop moving. I mean, every single day the teacher's aide was, you know, sending him off to the office or whatnot because he was making trouble. Just, we're just like running around, never paying any attention and picking everything up. And throughout the course of the semester, we were learning the different classical musicians and modern musicians. So I would, all of the kids would, I would have them like act out a story and each of the kids were, you know, playing a different part in the story. And so over the course of the semester, one of the kids was named Beethoven, one is Bach and one is Chopin. And you know, even someone was like Clara Schumann. And so we would just be kind of playing so games. And it was really wonderful. They were learning and they're all preschoolers and this one kid just like not engaged at all, just running around the whole time like crazy. And so the last day of class, I decided to not really do an exam, but kind of test their knowledge. And so what I would do is I would play a piece of classical music and then I would ask the kids to name the composer. And to my great shock, this kid that had been running around the room was able to identify every single composer for every piece of music, including Claire Schumann. And it was just. And none of the other children in the class could get like 100% of them. Right. And this one Child who I thought had just been totally tuned out the entire time knew every single one. So that kind of gives me still chills thinking about that. But it's just an example of how, you know, different children observe, absorb information and process the world. And it's really hard to get that one on one attention in a group setting. You can't.

So yeah, absolutely. Like, wow, that's, that's just a great example of like showing how like, if you change the setting, I mean not only how you're able to tap into like all these strengths that students might have that aren't being. And like very incredible strengths that aren't being, that aren't being seen because they're not really, the students aren't being allowed to flourish. And it's also like when you were talking a little bit about like kids that need to move around and, and that aren't able to, when it's like everyone, when they have to like be in their desk, I certainly related to having that like also like wanting to move around and not being able to. And then I actually came across something because I follow some neurodiversity accounts in Brazil as well. And I just came across this tweet or I think it was a tweet or a post by a Brazilian professor one day and he was talking about how he had this one student that did poorly on an exam, I think she scored 27% or something. And. And then he like, he asked her what was going on and she explained that she had hyperactive ADHD and that she needed to move around and it was hard for her to like to sit still and everything. And then he had a conversation with the entire classroom, like a conversation about neurodiversity. And. And then basically there was one more, like one more person with the diagnosis came forward and I think two more people that, two more kids that suspected or that identified with symptoms. And then he made like, he made space in between the last two rows of desks so those, so those students could move around during class. And, and then what happened is that the, that student that had scored 27% scored like 93% or something on the next exam. So that like, and then he said something like, if that isn't inclusive education, I don't know what is. And it was just this one like simple accommodation that he made. I always like to, to mention that story, like, even though I, it's been a while now since I saw that. But I was, it was like, wow, it was such a revelation to me because it was like, wow, like one simple adjustment that most people don't even think of making. Like, they would. They would. Because most schools would like. What I see is that they either force the. The. The student to. To be still or they. They separate the. The disabled students, which is not only not helping the disabled students, but it's also not helping the rest of the students. Like, another thing that I really liked about what this professor did is that he. He used that opportunity to educate the other students on neurodiversity and different brains and different learning styles. Styles. And like, yeah, I found that really amazing. Like, so I always mentioned that. I like to mention that. That example now because, like, that's when I started really realizing, like, wow, like, because I. I guess when I was growing up, it always felt like accommodations were like, people made it seem like it was such a big hassle to provide accommodations. And it's like. And it really isn't. Like, it made me realize that, yeah, like sometimes people don't realize, but it's just like even one little adjustment can make a huge difference.

Huge. And I really wanted to kind of pinpoint that because that is clearly a vision intuitive and highly skilled teacher that he was able to make that one adjustment that made such a huge difference. But when you think about homeschooling, you have a parent and a student and imagine how many adjustments they're able to make every single day to optimize their child's learning instead of just one thing a year. And that's why kids can go so incredibly far.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. What have you. Another thing that came up for me, what have been like, some of the main things. Have you also, like, because I know you worked a lot with neurodivergent kids and then also, like, have you met any neurodivergent adults or professionals or other teachers? And like, what have been some of the main things that, like, especially in community and everything that you've. You've been able to. To talk about and learn more, like, from their. From their perspective as well.

Sure. So it, it happens that often the parents of neurodivergent children are neurodivergent themselves. And that's been a really beautiful thing. So I told you that. That I use the homeschooling groups quite a bit for my research. And often what's wonderful is that the parents of these children are kind of paving the way for them to get a better education than they did. And so I've connected with a lot of adults that way. They've come to really Understand themselves as learners and then apply those lessons to their children. And I'll give just one example A lot, because autism does come up a lot in the homeschooling community. Some of the parents have been very, they're very opposed to an approach called aba, which is basically trying to change the child's behavior, change them and make them not autistic. And so instead they're using an approach that's honoring their unique strengths. So it's really cool to see that type of activism and awareness that's coming from the homeschooling community. And then someone who's had a big impact on me is Jade Rivera. She's twice exceptional and she writes a lot about twice exceptional kids and just got her EDD and cognitive diversity. And she's also started a micro school and has been really active in supporting families. So that's really great to see.

Nice. Yeah, yeah, that's, it's true, you know, a lot. I started realizing this over time also that most neurodivergent kids have neurodivergent parents. I feel like a lot of them, a lot of the parents. Also what I've been seeing is a lot of the parents end up discovering their own neurodivergence through their child. And, and I think it's really great because I've, I've also heard a lot about ABA and this whole mentality of like fixing or like trying to mold children into, into like neurotypicals essentially. And so I think it's really great that, that more parents are, are coming up with different like, you know, ways of actually like honoring their kids strengths and just accommodating the differences instead of like, instead of changing them. I'm glad that's, that's been happening more on a larger scale now because yeah, it's, I still see, I still see so much pathologization just like out in the world. Like I saw an article, oh my God, I saw an article last week about. It was from ucsf, which is a very like renowned institution and in a progressive city, which it was part of, like was so alarming that they had, they came out with this article saying like how we could use AI to cure autism or something like that. And I was like, I've been even considering writing a letter to them or like getting in touch with other people too and, and putting something together because it's so alarming to me that there's still this, this mentality and like it's such a progressive place like San Francisco, such a renowned institution like UCSF would still be putting out this, these kind of articles with this kind of mentality.

Absolutely. And if you really dive in, what you see is that the, the entire system is gained. It's geared towards blaming the student instead of accepting responsibility for its own failures. And it might seem kind of like a cliche or not very, a little bit naive to say this, but I have never met someone who I would consider a neurotypical student. Clearly there are those of us who struggle much more in the traditional school system. And my friend Jason really encourage you to use the word learning disability because the student is not an advantage when it comes to conventional school setting. But if you're really teaching people well, you're honoring all of their unique differences instead of labeling their differences as problems and errors. And so I think that paradigm really has to shift. And you writing a letter to UCSF and helping build awareness around all of the amazing people in the world who would not be believing in the traditional school.

Yeah.

Vibrant, brilliant society.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I go back and forth with like the term as well, you know, because neurodivergent is what I, what I hear mostly out there, but I think it doesn't, it doesn't get the idea across sometimes. And it's a little bit. It's like focusing on divergence, but it's, it's. I heard, I heard also neuro distinct, which I like a little better because it's, it's nice. It's more like. It doesn't. It's just got a smoother. It sounds like. It sounds better than divergent because diversion is like, because it's not like a lot of times it's not necessarily like a complete divergence. It's just a distinct way.

I like that.

Yeah.

Because in a way, if you, you have figured out the way your mind thinks, so it's distinct. Whereas other people whom might not have figured that out yet would, Would be neurotypical. But you defined what you are and how you learn.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or like another one I heard is neurodominant. Because the neurodominant is like, it's not even related to. It can. It can be like not even the, the individual, but like the dominant mold of the dominant mold of. Of like how. Like a mold of teaching or a mold of. Of. Like structure that is like, that is like the dominant. Dominant way that, that like the dominant mold that most people follow. So I guess like deviating from the dominant. But it's also because it's how people are, how people are molded like, how. I mean, the molds that people are taught or conditioned to fit. And a lot of times, because I've been discovering that a lot of times, like, essentially there are a lot more neurodistinct people than I think, than society realizes. But it's like a lot of people, they. They come across as you would. You would assume or interpret that they're neurotypical because of, like. Because they present like they. They seem to fit these molds or like, to, you know, to be a certain way. But it's really because they're very high masking because they've been conditioned to. And I was a little bit like that as well. And sometimes it's hard if I don't know someone very well. Like, they won't. They don't understand. Like, they're very surprised that when I tell them that I'm neurodistinct because. Or that I'm autistic or ADHD because they've. Because I'm able to. I'm one of those people that is able to mask to a very high level. And I felt like, you know, I've always been, like, a lot of my school years and everything, and even until recently, I've always been putting on this mask. And so I've gotten very used to it. But then at the same time, it's very tiring and exhausting to, like, constantly, like, mold yourself into something else. So then. Yeah, so then I've been realizing that I go back and forth because, like, I know that there's a difference in, like, the frequency and the intensity and, like, the ability to regulate certain things. But there is in. But there isn't really, like, one typical mold. Well, I mean, there's. There's a mold, but there's no, like, one typical brain. There's no, like, that. No one's brain. I feel like no two people have a brain that works exactly the same.

We have a whole universe inside of ourselves. So.

Unique. Yeah, exactly. What would. What would you say, Summer? I. I think we kind of touched on this a little bit. So I'm going to ask you what are some of the. Because you're talking about you. You created a lot of different curriculums. And so what are, like, maybe a couple examples of some of those curriculums that you've created and like, that are more, like, adjusted to folks with. With sensory.

So just to clarify, I haven't built any curriculum myself. Actually, I did create some curriculum a while ago for a French school, but mostly I have. There's so many amazing resources that have emerged. So mostly I help direct parents to the resource that works best for their child. So I'll just give an example. There's a wonderful reading app called Nessie and it an online digital app. It's really designed for dyslexic children. It follows the science of reading and it's relatively frequent that children who are on the spectrum sometimes have dyslexia as well. And that app is fantastic. There's another curriculum called Wild Math and Wild Reading and it's all nature based, so that can be fantastic for children who have ADHD or sensory processing issues. I also love Brain Pop. Again, it's a digital app so it's very conducive to kids who like to work to learn online. And. And then another one that I love for children with ADHD is right Start Math. It's all physical manipulatives and multi sensory and that one is, is great. Beastic Academy is a math program. They have an online and a physical version. And I found that children who are gifted are profoundly gifted and also children on the autism spectrum. Just love the online version, the physical version so much, but it really focuses more on conceptual understanding rather than route memorization. And that one is another favorite.

I see. Cool. Yeah.

I also have a blog I'll share with you and you can share with your listeners called Cognitive Diversity and Homeschooling. And we've gone through nine different learning profiles and recommended math and English language arts and a complete curriculum for each archetype.

Fantastic. Yes, I'll definitely be sharing that in the show notes and I wanted to ask you also you mentioned earlier before we started that you are. I forgot the term you used because that you're, you're moving. That lately you've been digital nomads. Yes. That you. So tell me a little bit about like what that's been like. Like working from a lot of these, all these different places and then like differences that you've noticed in, in different countries as well and in terms of like the education and the culture and everything.

Oh sure, that's a great question. So even though I travel quite a bit, I mostly work with Australian families and US families and a little bit families in the uk, some in India. You know, the education system in the US has really gone downhill. It's very, in a very, very bad shape. Shape. Kids are leaving in rows, classes are overcrowded, teachers are leaving in a place like Europe, it's not that bad. The teachers are very well trained, they're well paid. But you still encounter a lot of the same problems in these group classroom settings. And, you know, I think it's almost universal that, unfortunately, we're not really raising as many geniuses as we to, because we're trying to accommodate the system for the almost like the lowest common denominator, like, how can we keep everybody about average as opposed to really honoring people's unique strengths and helping them cultivate them. So I think there's room for a new kind of education system where parents can be much more involved in their children's education with the support of, you know, getting child care support and with remote work on the rise and. And then combine that with extracurriculars and tutoring. And I think that it's possible that the US Will be really paving the way for that because it's an innovative place, but also because the education system is so bad that people have had to turn to other options.

Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's definitely. I think it's. It. It's. It's good that there's. People are starting to notice more like these. These issues and. And what needs to change and, like, how standardized everything is. And. Yeah, that's. That's definitely encouraging. It's because it's easy sometimes to, like, see how much still needs to change and then feel. Feel, like, frustrated about it or like, oh, my God, like, how are we gonna tackle this? But. And it's always nice to. To see, like, the areas that. That it is changing and then talking to people like you and that are, you know, that have developed all these alternate curriculums and styles and. And communities and. And it is a reminder that we are. That, like, change is happening. And. And yeah, that's. That's definitely very nice to see. And I imagine it must be. It must have been really empowering for you as well once you started getting. Getting involved with all of this and. And. And seeing that. That such significant change can. Can be made. Yeah. Have you. Another question popped up in my head. Have you, like, since. Have you stayed in touch with, like, a lot of the. The kids or families that you worked with, like, from early on? And, like, how has that been?

Yeah, I mean, that's been amazing. And some of the children, we started working together when they were 4 or 3, before the pandemic, and now they're turning 7 or 8. And so I've kind of been able to work with their parents and help curate their education since they start. Started homeschooling. And even kids that I used to work with when I was in my 20s in New York, there's a young woman who I'm very close friends with. I was 25 and she was 10 when I started tutoring her. And now she's all grown up and we just, you know, talked yesterday and now she's giving me advice about my life. That's been a real gift.

Yeah. Fantastic. Wow, that's lovely. What would you. Let's see. I might have. I think we did touch on this. Well, okay, maybe I think this is a little different because I know we talked about like the, the issues with like the traditioning traditional school system, but like, even within the. What would you say, like within the homeschooling world, what are some of the things. Because I know homeschooling has been around for a while, but not in, not quite like in, in this way. And maybe it's been like in the past, maybe it was kind of standardized as well. Like, what are some of the things maybe that you saw in the homeschooling world that are still kind of standardized and that, that what are the main things would you say need to change even in the homeschooling world for it to become more. More neurodiversity?

That's a great question. So the biggest mistake that parents use make is to try to recreate school at home. And it's natural that parents are really scared that their children are not going to learn what they need to learn. And in many cases, parents have had to homeschool. They didn't have a choice about it. Their child was told that you may not attend school anymore because they were not, you know, fitting in at all with the environment. And so parents feel like, oh my gosh, now I have to do everything the same at school, otherwise they're gonna fall behind. I'm a failure. But actually, you know, Benjamin Bloom did these studies on one on one mastery learning, which is if you use a good curriculum, a mastery based curriculum, meaning you're learning one thing before you move on to the next. You, and you learn one on one. So basically, and one on one can simply be maybe a student studying independently and getting support from their parent as needed, you are going to learn 90% better than when you're in a group of students. So what we've seen is that a lot of the homeschoolers who do well do an hour on math, an hour of English language arts every day, and that's it. They don't need to pile on a bunch of other stuff. And with that approach, you're able to go through the whole K through 8th grade math curriculum in six months. The learning is so much faster. And that takes us back to the beginning of the conversation when you're talking about making an adjustment. So rather than making one adjustment per year, you're making a million adjustments within every hour. Right. To help optimize that student's learning so they can learn at their own pace. And then the other thing is that parents really need a lot of self care. And so I always tell parents when you start homeschooling, you really need to come up with a good child care plan. When are you going to be with your child and when are you going to get time to focus on yourself? And you should have at least three hours a week. That's your time for your own projects. And so that really helps. And then especially with children who have sensory issues or on the spectrum, just making sure they have a lot of downtime. It's possible that schools are really, really traumatic experience for them. They might have gone in loving to read and now they hate reading. So just making sure that you might even want to take a break from any learning or just not call things learning. And we often refer to this idea of B schooling. Even several months or a year, children are just given space to do what they need to do. And then another thing to keep in mind is like just do the learning when the child is focused and happy. If they're having a bad day, you don't have to keep to the schedule. You can take the day off. It's not a big loss. And your learning can happen all year round. So those are kind of some key things to keep in mind, especially if you are homeschooling a child who might have a more heightened emotional reaction to the world around them.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I know. We also, we talked a little bit earlier about the, the socialization and community aspect and how to, how to, like how to still, how kids can still have social socialization while being homeschooled. So I was wondering, like, what are some of the main examples of like groups and such that, that are able to have to bring those homeschooling communities together and have, have, have socialization for the kids. But, but you know, in the community where we're all like focused on the same thing.

Yeah, that's a great. So first of all, I don't really like the word socialization. I talked to, I had an interview with a cognitive psychologist named Gordon Neufeld and he uses the term social capacity. And so this idea of kids hanging out with Other kids their same age has something that emerged afterwards World War II. And actually, it's pretty unhealthy for kids to be picking up habits from other children and forming their attachments with other kids as opposed to their parents, because other kids are going to abandon them. The parents are always there for them. So I say, you know, make sure you start with that secure attachment and use that as the foundation. And then it's wonderful for your child to have other influences beyond you, not just other kids, but other parents. And so for that, what you would want to do is probably plug into a local homeschooling group. And if your family isn't religious, you would maybe want to look for a secular group or an unschooling group, or maybe you're okay connecting with other people who are religious. And that's. And I usually find, like, Facebook or Meetup is the best place to do that. And, you know, certainly you want to have a group that's inclusive, so you might want to ask some questions about that. There was a group that I just loved in San Francisco, and I observed their meetups at the playground every week. And there. There was a. There were a bunch of children of all different ages, all different. You know, I mean, you could tell people were leaving in school because something was not right. And there was a child there who was transgender, quite young. There was also another student who was a bit older and very, you know, on the autism spectrum. But I think definitely, I would describe as someone who would have difficulty interacting socially. And it was so beautiful to watch this group interact because there was the playground, and then there were adults kind of sitting on the sidelines having their picnic, having snacks together. And I watched this child with autism, and he would basically kind of circle around the group of kids, kids playing, and then every now and then, go in, chat with someone, go back out, circle around, go talk to a parent. And I felt like he was really relating in the way that felt healthy and good for him and without being pushed into a situation that felt uncomfortable. And I just. I'll never forget that image, because I felt like that's the ideal. Yeah, we're looking for.

I like that. That makes a lot of sense. And I. It does remind me a little bit of how earlier, like, you know, early in school, I think this was also when I was living in Brazil, but I'm sure it happens here as well. Where I remember, I was in second grade, and I was in the classroom, and it was recess time. And, you know, a lot of times during recess, you Know, because I didn't. I didn't feel like I fit. Fit in very much with the other kids. I liked to maybe just hang out in the classroom or maybe I would go outside and hang out a little bit, but like on my own maybe, and I had maybe, you know, I would talk. There was one person, one other kid that I would talk to or maybe like one of the hall monitors or the employees there that I would talk to. And, and maybe there was. And I think there was this one time that I stayed in the, in the classroom and I was like, I talked to my teacher a little bit or something, or maybe I was just in the classroom just kind of decompressing. And I remember there was like this concern from my teacher that she was like, oh, well, don't you want to go hang out with the other boys or something? And I was. And I remember feeling like, no, I. Because they just. I didn't fit in with them. So I was just like, no, I'm okay. Yeah. And. And. And then it made me realize how there is like such. This like, strong. There's kind of a pressure from, from an early age to, to like, make a lot of friends friends and like have like, have this, this social group or whatnot. But I found that. And I think this is also like the way that a lot of autistics naturally socialize is. But I've. I've found that I, I do a lot better with like one on one with like getting to know people one on one. And I think it builds deeper connections as well. Like, because for me, groups are really like, big group gatherings can be really stressful because with the sensory stuff, especially amongst other things. But like, the main thing I would notice is that I'm trying to keep up with everyone and what everyone is saying and what the conversation is. And it feels like the conversation is changing so fast. And this can also be like. It can also be hard to, to. To adjust if you have adhd, because then you're like, you know, you're having to keep track of all this and then something. What would happen too, and something would pop up in my head and I really wanted to. To talk about that subject and I couldn't just like freeze and talk about that one subject with that one person because the conversation is always moving and it's just so much going on at the same time. And like, I. Because I know that for some people, like, they do better in big groups and, and that's good. But then it's like for me, I was like, wow, I really need, I could really use like some one on one time with each one of these folks and, and then, oh my God. And then like we build these great connections. And so I guess a lot of times if you're kind of like quieter or you're not engaging so much in a group, people will kind of assume. Another thing is people will assume that you're non social or that you don't want to talk to anybody. But it's more like. And I would always appreciate it because it would happen. I was lucky that a lot of times like other people, you know, the ways that I built great friendships. I think I've had at least maybe two or three friendships that started this way was that the other person would come up to me and say something and we would just kind of start talking one on one and like sharing experiences or relating to something or such and then that we would build that great connection. So yeah, that definitely the host, like you know, the concept of what they call socialization but you know, the, the way it's like the way it's thought of and the expectations and everything and how it's like how individual connections are much more important. That's really been something I noticed too. Yeah. Yeah. Well, those are pretty much all the questions I have for you today. I know we're at about one hour.

It was so good to meet you.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to kind of say about one thing you said earlier about masking. I think that for all of us it's really a life, lifelong pursuit to try to live as our true self. And it's so exhausting and sometimes that's kind of naturally weird. People like me, we have a gift that we feel more keenly when we're not in our truth. And so in a way it can accelerate us, accelerate us towards that which is really the best way to live in our truth. So I hope that you will continue to find ways and communities where you can be your full self, your whole true self.

Thank you. Yeah, it's been like especially the last couple years, it's been really great like discovering like the neurodivergent community and I even you know, joining support groups. I started joining support groups for like with other autistic people lately and just like it's like really I, I feels like I've found like my people, I found like the people that I'm most aligned with and it's, it's very non forced. It's also easier to unmask when it's a more like a smaller group or more like intimate, one on one. And it's, it's a lot less forced. Yeah. Because I'm not like, forcing myself to fit into a group and I can actually just unlike. Yeah. I can see how, like, especially at early ages, this is so important to like, really pause and be like, do I need to do things this way or does my child need to do things this way? And. And what if we do things this other way? So, yeah, all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you again for coming on.

Thank you so much, George. It's been a really beautiful conversation. I'm so happy that we connected and can't wait to see what you do next.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I will, I will be in touch. I'll. I'll. I'll be sharing the. The links for the resources we mentioned in the show notes. And thank you once again, everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you once again, Manisha. And I'll see you next time.