HomeSchooling: A Discussion with Manisha Snoyer

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All right, guys, welcome back. Today we have a very special guest on the podcast, and we thought that this was something really, really, really important to talk about. Because while none of the four of us homeschool our children, we do know that there is a decent chunk of our population who do homeschool their kids for one reason or another. So today on the podcast, we have Manisha Snoyer, and Manisha is the founder of a company called Teach your Kids. We also have Tash on the podcast today. Say hi, Tosh.

Hello.

And this is Shannon.

I always forget to introduce us.

Okay, so Manisha, talk to us. Talk to us about teach your Kids and how you started in this space.

Thank you so much, Shannon. Well, first of all, it's so great to be here. I absolutely love your podcast and I've learned so much from it myself. So it's really an honor to be on the show. So I was a K through 12th grade teacher for 20 years. I've taught over 2000 children in three countries in public school, private school, school after school. And in my own experience as a teacher, I have to say I really felt like I witnessed an education system that was broken at every level. From kids going to schools that cost upwards of $60,000 a year and getting four hours of tutoring every night and throwing up because they were under so much stress to seeing, you know, even in some of the best public schools, that Every teacher had 30 kids in their classroom and just really not enough time or resources to differentiate learning kids that were just sitting in rows instead of moving their bodies and feeling like this homogenous one size fits all curriculum was really not the ticket for profound learning and joyful learning. And so I started kind of becoming interested in creating a company and discovered this movement of families who were curating their children's education. And by that I mean homeschoolers. And what I was surprised is that it wasn't people who were kind of standing at their kitchen table six hours a day teaching math and arithmetic, but people who were outside in the world doing nature based learning, doing cool adaptive learning technology. These kids were really happy and thriving in a way that they hadn't been in traditional school. And so flash forward. During the pandemic, I launched a nonprofit called schoolclosures.org it was the largest organization helping families impacted by school closures. From there, I developed Teacher Kids, which is a podcast and online homeschooling community. We support families in whatever way they need, whether it's finding tutors, choosing curriculum, just getting confidence that they know what's best for their child, or getting support with social emotional development. So it's really the full spectrum and it's, I guess I should just add, it's pretty inexpensive to join. It's like $15 a month. But we give scholarships to anybody who asks. So it's really meant to expand access to education for anyone who Needs it.

Well, that sounds amazing. And I know, you know, I. I attempted homeschooling during the pandemic. We'll all notice Gracie's back in school now. Was very eye opening to me in. But I do think, you know, I'm sure given the right circumstances, I probably could make it happen. I just struggle a lot with the discipline of, you know, being the person in charge of my child's education. And so what do you say to the parents who maybe are on the fence, you know, when it comes to homeschooling? They're thinking that, you know, you know, maybe the, you know, curriculum at school isn't exactly what's best for their child. Maybe they've been trying to work with IEP teams. You know, I know Tosh and I, we both have really amazing IEP teams at school, but I know that there's a lot of parents in our community who don't have that. So if they're, you know, going back and forth about homeschooling, what would you say?

Well, that's a great question, and there's lots of dimensions to it. So first of all, I think we should address the. This problem of people thinking like, homeschooling is like, pandemic homeschooling. So during the pandemic, every single parent in the country for a period of time was forced to homeschool their children. And some parents just said, okay, I'm like, opting out of school altogether and I'm going to join a little nature co op, and that's going to be our homeschooling. And those parents tended to have a pretty positive experience. And then on the other side, there were parents whose homeschooling looked like supporting their children through six hours a day of Zoom classes and trying to help them with the homework. And that was a very unpleasant, stressful version of homeschooling, first of all, because, you know, and, oh, my goodness, these teachers had to just flip what they were doing in two weeks. You know, but doing. Trying to do what looks like school in a traditional classroom on Zoom is just not gonna work. You cannot get kids to just sit and listen to a lecture on Zoom. I mean, a lot of times they didn't have the right dev or equipment. Maybe, you know, if there wasn't a room for each sibling, they all had to be crammed into the same room. I mean, it was just. There were districts that were short 20,000 devices, so. And parents just had no context for what their children were learning in class. Like, second grade math is taught in A very specific way, how is you, how are you as a parent supposed to understand that method? Or how the, how your teacher wants your child to write an essay. So it resulted in a lot of fights, a lot of stress, a lot of time. Homeschooling is completely different. And I also want to mention the parents who had been homeschooling were under a lot of the same stress because their kids were cooped up, they couldn't do the usual activities. So what homeschooling is and that. And I will say, you know, there's all types of homeschooling. There are definitely people who do sit at the kitchen table six hours a day, you know, but the kind of homeschooling that I've witnessed is more like an hour of math, an hour of English language arts, and then do what works for you. And so I think that it's really important, first of all to just take your mind out of this context of pandemic school homeschooling and look, and actually look at what is homeschooling. And the best way to get a flavor for what homeschooling looks like is to just join a local homeschooling group, go on Facebook, you can join my community and just attend a meetup, talk to parents, see what their daily lives are like. So that's the first aspect. And then the second aspect I would say is that if you are thinking about homeschooling, some of the advantages for a child with who might be on the spectrum, and of course every child is different, is that the homeschooling environment is like orders of magnitude more peaceful and sensory safe than the typical classroom. You can really create it to regulate the sensory input of an autistic child's learning environment and create the ideal conditions for them to learn. So that's a huge plus. And the other aspect is that many autistic children have special interests that are educational but may lie outside the typical classroom curriculum. So providing that space for autistic children to dive deeply into their interests will contribute to their happiness and overall well being. So I just think that those are like really important points to keep in mind when you're thinking about this environment. And maybe though that's a good start for parents, considering this choice is like get a flavor for it, you know, by going to a local group. And then after you get a flavor for it, maybe try it during the summer, see how it goes. And then the third thing I would say is that if you do want to homeschool, I really suggest reevaluating all your goals around learning. Because the, the way that our school system works is that the, the government is supposed to standardize learning for every child. So there's a certain, I mean, I hate to say it this way, but like a level of mediocrity that everybody is supposed to reach. And the curriculum is designed to suit the biggest variety of learners equally well. And that's really hard to do. But when you're homeschooling, you can think about like, well, what kind of skills are important for my child to learn? Do they need to know multiplication or not? You know, I mean, do they. Do they need to prepare to have a vocation or be well rounded? You know, you can kind of call all of this into question and then you start realizing there's a ton of debate around educational standards. So what's right for my child and how do we curate an education around that?

Yeah. Oh, so good. So good. Really quickly, can I ask a question? So go back to the show.

Okay.

I'm a little off kilter today, so.

I don't want to interrupt and I'm just teasing.

Do all the tangents I'm known for going off on.

I love it.

Maybe not as much as Jean.

Same here.

To go back to like doing, you know, a little bit of research and homework and seeing what some of the modules or homeschool, you know, co ops, etc look like, being able to kind of make that decision. Like, okay, I, I want to homeschool my kids, but I obviously want them to be able to go in and have that interaction with. With other kiddos. Maybe it being in a setting.

Right, right.

You know, where you've talked about where there's like a specialty class taught or something like that. How would you go about having the conversation with whoever it might be, the, the owner or whoever of the co op of your child being special needs and like, behaviors, etc.

Right.

What inclusion would look like, you know, Sorry, I know that was if I just went like too, too deep, you know, because.

Oh, this is great. This is great. Go straight to the point. So, yeah. So first of all, when I say kind of try something out, I think probably the best example would be to try out a meetup. Like, for example, in the Bay Area, there's a group I love. It's an unschooling group and we can dig more into unschooling. But basically, families really support following their children's interests and they meet every Friday at the playground. And you see immediately when you enter that environment that there's A lot of diversity in terms of how children think and what. And so already there's so many families who have children with diagnosed learning disabilities that you will find immediately there's a lot of knowledge and awareness within the community just by entering into that group. And so I think that rather than maybe like, you do need to, if you decide that you're going to join a homeschool co op, so that might be a place where you go two or three times a week, or it might be a class. I would say, first of all, start by asking other parents who have a child with autism or are autistic themselves, what are the classes that you attend? How is the leader? Are they sensitive to the child's needs? Because that person is. Is going to tell you a lot more. I mean, of course the leader is going to say, oh, yes, you know, I support autistic children. Maybe they'll be a little more humble. But, you know, so that's. The first step, is just seeing what other parents recommend. And when I'm trying to find classes for parents, that's what I'll do first. I'll say, like, you know, is anyone in this group have a child with autism? What classes would you recommend? And they say, oh, this teacher is so amazing. Right.

Okay. Okay.

So then the second step is like, you go into that learning environment and you watch how the teacher interacts. You see how the teacher interacts with your own child. And I always see, you know, I'm always actually more interested not in what they say, but in what they ask. So is that teacher curious about my child, how they think, how they can support them? I think, you know, Shannon, you've talked about this on the show is like, it's just a gift to have an aide who is really curious and asks the parent about how to support your child. And so that's what I try to look for more than anything else. Is a teacher who wants to learn curious?

Yes.

Okay.

And you know what I wonder too, is these teachers essentially. Are they basically being like this sounds terrible.

Are.

But are they being rented basically by the co op to come and teach this class?

Like, is that.

I was wondering that too. Like, how did it. Sorry. And if we're going a little off.

Oh, this is great.

But how does that, you know, how does somebody qualify for. I mean, could you, as the parent, walk in and say, I'm really. This is something that I'm really passionate about. I would love to teach, you know, a class on this or totally.

I mean, the thing about homeschooling is, it's really a free for all. You have all kinds of learning environments. You have parents. So for example, some people will go to a parent led co op where there might be, you know, anywhere between six and 20 kids. And each month two parents take charge and they run an arc, right? So it's like three hours of project based learning, you know, maybe around sea turtles, right? And then the other parents get to take a break and have coffee or whatever. Sometimes it's a class in a homeschool center where they've hired a teacher who might be a professor at the local university or a young graduate student. You know, it could be that sometimes a science professor will offer a class to all the kids. And these can really like range in quality, for sure. Um, and then you have more of a. Then sometimes you have a group of parents who gets together and says, you know, we want to form this learning pod. Maybe it's in one parent's house or an after school center or a church and they go about and hire a teacher. Sometimes a teacher says, I want to start a homeschool co op. And they set up all the space and the curriculum and kind of get it going. So it really varies a lot. I think that if you, you know, if you're a parent who has decided to homeschool and you want some social support and you want some childcare support, those are basically your options is you can do something that's like a parent share, you can do something that's run by a teacher, or you can do something that's more formal. I mean, because the homeschooling population is growing so drastically, there's more kind of businesses that are opening up to support homeschoolers. Although I do have kind of a preference for the grassroots mom and pop shares.

So or, or for even those people who are religious and they want there, they want there to be some sort of religious aspect to it, component to it. Yeah. Okay, another tangent.

Sorry, wait, hold on.

Before you tangent away from this, let me say that I think that there could be a big pro to this in that being. I feel terrible for our teachers. I think our teachers are exhausted and they are burnt out and supported by their districts. They're not supported, they're underpaid and they're asked to do a lot. And I think one pro of this situation is that if you are hiring in teachers, whether they are teachers or just people who, like you said, are really passionate about something, I think the level of burnout is probably a lot less in those Individuals, and they may be more willing to be more curious, and they may be more patient in, you know, what they're teaching because of that. And that is not at all. We love our teachers. We support our teachers 100%. So it's not to say anything bad about them, but that may be a pro. Is, you know, working with some professionals or just passionate, you know, parents, individuals.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and just kind of allowing them to have that creativity to design their curriculum and shape their curriculum and shape their. The way they teach the kids according to their instincts. I mean, what I usually tell parents is if you want to find a tutor, spend a lot of time looking for the person, make your goals clear, and then just let them do it. Don't be kind of like. Because I have seen some nice parents will hire a teacher together, and then every, like, the teacher's getting, like, 20 emails a day from different parents, like, asking them to change how they do things. And it's. That's not fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're.

Yeah, you hired them to do what they do. Let them do it.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and I think any good manager knows that, like, it can be helpful to have, you know, check every now and then. But I think, you know, teachers are artists, and they need a lot of support and encouragement and gratitude. I mean, as, you know, and gratitude really pays. So. But I would also say, like, don't just jump to outsourcing your homeschooling, because the best thing about homeschooling is that you're raising your own child and that family time, like, tapping into. I mean, I know that each of you who host this podcast are so active in your child's education. I mean, you do so much to ensure they're getting the best possible learning outcomes, because, you know, you parents just have this incredible knowledge, and there's something just unbelievable about being able to do that for your child. Like, it's so gratifying to teach your own child. I think that a lot of people are almost surprised by how wonderful that is. But, you know, as they say, it's like billions of years of evolution have turned you into the ideal teacher for your child. And it's. It's. You know, sometimes it is a sacrifice, but it can be just extraordinary, extraordinary experience.

So really quickly around just, like, state guidelines. Because I'm like, I'm always confused about that. I'm like, I have. I have tons of friends who homeschool. I am. I'm a Christian. So the church that I go to, there's a lot of people since the pandemic who have moved out of, you know, public school districts even have moved out of paying for those more expensive Christian based schools, you know, because it's, it's, it's too much.

Expensive.

It's expensive. People can't afford it. Yes. As a cost of living is crazy. So what, what does that look like? Like, how do you, I mean, because there's these standard testing in schools to make sure kids are. So how does that look like for homeschool? Because obviously you said there's lots of different curriculums you can choose from or.

Yeah, so it completely depends on the state. Some states have, sometimes states after, like New York state has, I would say, more strict standards, as does Pennsylvania. And they require, I believe it depends on your age, but like quarterly reports and I think annual assessments or maybe not every single year you're supposed to take a standardized test, but there are ways to opt out of that. And sometimes they will require a teacher evaluation as well and that you are kind of covering all of the curriculum, but there's not a lot of accountability. Like for example, sometimes you could say, we learned history by going to this museum and we learned geography by traveling the world. A lot of homeschoolers just see learning as happening all the time. So it can feel a little daunting at first when you see that, but actually it's just something that's happening organically. And so what most homeschoolers do is they'll just take pictures of all their work, you know, upload it to a Facebook fan page or a Google Drive, and then they have more than enough for what they need. And then some states are just like, you really don't have to do anything. You just fill them in a piece of paper and say, I'm homeschooling, you know, and that's fine. And you know, unfortunately a lot of parents are just, you know, just simply not going to school. Like, they're not filing the homeschooling paperwork, they're not attending. And there's a lot of data right now coming out saying, you know, where are all these lost kids who never signed up for school? So I, you know, I like the free for all approach. I trust parents. I think they're doing a good job. You know, as the homeschooling population grows, we're going to need to think more about accountability, probably, but it really depends. And, and if you want to find the laws in your state, all you have to do is go to the Department of Education for Your city and state and. And the laws are there, and there's generally a homeschool coordinator that you can contact.

Yeah, I'm gonna. I. I mean, it's not to say that there's not parents who are just like, well, I just don't want to do anything, and I don't want to, you know, force my kid to go to school. So I'm just gonna say I'm homeschooling. And, you know, that's. I. I would say probably less likely, but. But, yes, the accountability part, I'm sure is necessary.

And I would just say for your own. What my experience, like as a teacher and having observed lots of homeschoolers, is that if you want to be accountable for what your child needs to know, I recommend an hour of math and literacy. Like, if you have literacy and numeracy, your kids have a foundation upon which they can explore the world. So those are kind of the two. I mean, no one is really ever holding a kid back because they don't know US History or biology or.

What do we even remember from either of those?

Or even math. What do we even remember? Right? But. But you can have. And even for younger kids, I would say even 45 minutes of each of those subjects, just knowing how to read, knowing how to write, knowing how to do math. If those are neglected, you can run into problems. But if you just say, like, let me cover these bases and the rest we can do at the library, the museum, or YouTube, whatever, I think you're gonna be good.

I'm realizing so many things, My head's gonna explode. First off, like, I am very type one.

So, like, the pandemic.

The pandemic hits, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, we're homeschooling. And, like, called up my grandmother, who, you know, she passed away almost two years ago, but called up my grandmother, who's a special education teacher, and I was like, I'm going to need help. And she blessed her teacher soul, came to the house with a binder that had all of the state of Arizona requirements for education.

Oh, my gosh.

She went hardcore.

Well, and then.

No. And then I was just like, oh, my gosh, what have I gotten myself into? And then I went super crazy about, okay, I have to find the perfect curriculum for my autistic daughter. And I think that is where the type one in me can be a downfall.

Right?

Because it's like, I feel like, okay, it needs to be this, and it needs to line up, and it needs to do this, and it doesn't necessarily have to do any of those things. And I think one thing that I appreciate about this conversation is realizing that like, different children learn different ways and different things are important to parents. And for instance, I had a brief meeting with Gracie's team just this week and I was speaking to her ot and they were talking about how she was struggling to write small. She writes very large when she writes. And they were using a spacer in between words just to teach her about spacing. Because if you let Gracie just write, it's one big word, like I can read it. That's one big, you know, one big word with no spaces. And you know, I was able to, and they're very willing to work with us. But I, I said, you know, here's the thing, the spacer I'm here for, because if she's going to write, there has to be spaces between her words so that people can read it. And I said, if I'm, if I'm really honest, I don't care if she writes big. Like, do I want her letter, do I want her letter g to be 7 inches tall when she's 30?

Maybe not. But Gracie probably gonna be typing. She gonna be writing, right?

He already typed with the proper, yeah, spacing.

With spacing and everything situation. And, and so I said, I'm really not worried about that goal. Instead, why don't we work towards a typing goal? Like let's in, in her OT was like, oh, yes, like let's do that. That's so great. So I think it's being able to do those own things in your own home too. Like, you have so much more freedom with deciding what's really important to you and what's not as important to you for sure.

And I just want to kind of affirm who you are as a person, Shannon, because I am sure that you have transformed your entire school through the involvement you have in Gracie's education. I mean, your courage and your passion for your daughter's learning and enabling her to thrive has had ripple effects beyond what we could possibly imagine. I just have no doubt about that. And so I think it's important that we lean into our strengths as long as we're not operating from a fear based perspective. So you're actually thinking about what skills does she need and you know, what, voice to text is getting so good, nobody might even need. This is not a correct sentence. Trying to say, it's quite possible that people might not even need to know how to type in the future, much less write, you know, Incursive. But I will say that her ability to write now certainly impacts her self esteem, esteem, and her feeling that she belongs and her ability to thrive in the environment which she is in, which is school. And so I love that you're kind of weighing what's important and what's not important with all of those dimensions, the whole child. And I think as long as you're not saying, oh, my gosh, I'm so afraid that she's not meeting school standards, but I don't even know why these school standards are here or if she's going to need to be doing any of this stuff in the future. But I just feel like I have to. You know, that's not really a great way to apply your type A personality. But if your type A personality is like, I just love my daughter, I want her to thrive, and I am just this burning passion in me to make it work, then great, follow your strengths.

Well, and you said something I think is really important that I think that we forget sometimes, and that is, you know, empowering them and them feeling confident about the skills that they're learning. Like, how often are we thinking about that when we're doing our IEP goals?

Absolutely.

They very rarely seem to consider, how do these goals make Gracie feel? Like it's always about hitting a standard. Like, and I think that is a different way I'm going to approach our IEP this year.

Yes. And I will say that many of the homeschooling families I've spoken to who have children who are on the spectrum have told me that they decided to do it because their child was begging to homeschool. And I really believe in letting the child take the lead. And if you are thinking about homeschooling, if your child is asking you to homeschool, I think that's a very persuasive reason to give it a try. And if your child doesn't want to homeschool, I think that's a very persuasive reason not to give it a try. And one of the things that I love is that a lot of the parents who homeschool have children with autism also talk to their child about how their brain works. For example, you know, one of the parents I was talking to was saying that just the memory works differently. Like, their memory is inner words and their child's memory is visual. And they both have autism. Right. You know, and so it's, like, really exciting to explore and ask your child how they think and what will support them and what goals are important. For them and that will make them more passionate about learning as well.

Yeah. And then for those of our kids who you know, are non speaking, I think just taking from the cues, like Gracie maybe not speaking, but she, you know, can very effectively communicate.

So for sure reading exactly the cues. And I mean there's just so many. I always say to families like listen with your whole body. And that's, you know, parents are, you know, can be psychic in terms of understanding how their children and work and think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the parents who are again on, on that little bit on that ledge, but this feels scary and, and you know, they want to do the right thing for their child. You know, I love the approach of going and, and figuring out, you know, for instance, Jack is in plays top soccer. It's a special needs soccer team. And there I just chatted with a parent who was, she was like, oh yeah, Ollie, our, our son is homeschooled and at he homeschools at a, you know, kind of a co op in this area with also her teaching him a few days a week or whatever. So finding that and then finding like specifically if. Because you're already in the school district, right. You're Jack's fourth grade. So how would it be like I'm moving, I want to move out of this public education situation. Here's what he's struggling with on his IEP or do you even. Do you just let the IEP go and you move into, you know.

So it really depends on the child.

Okay.

And that's why I think it's so important to plug in into a homeschooling group and connect with other families who are okaying a child so you can. So that, so that's really key. But I would say just to start off, if you're just starting on homeschooling, I would say one concept that is sometimes helpful to people is to think about socialization and childcare and education as three separate concepts. So you're going to need support on all three fronts. Right. If you have parents who have two full time jobs and one parent might need to quit their job, or if you have two parents who work from home remotely or a stay at home parent, there are some changes that need to happen there depending on what level of care your child needs. I mean some kids are very independent and they're happy to work alone on the computer for hours. Other kids need a lot more attention. So just solve that. And then there's the educational piece. You know, does your, do you still have access to Special services as a homeschooler. In some states you do, in some states you don't. There's also often specific funding you can get, regardless of what state you're in, to help homeschool your child. Are you still going to need those special services while you're homeschooling? Is that IEP information valuable to you still? So you kind of can assess that on your own, and then. And then you can think about, okay, like, what kind of schedule are we going to have? What kind of curriculum are we going to have? And I think that those are kind of. These are the three pieces to consider, but you don't have to consider them all together. Like, school lumps all those three things together. But when you're homeschooling, you can kind of evaluate them separately.

Okay, okay.

Maybe we should talk a little bit about schedule, though, because I think that's a big concern. So most of the families, and again, like, I mean, children with autism are so different. Some have need for a really structured life, and others just really thrive having this kind of free for all type of environment. So there's no hard rule, but one thing is that a lot of parents recommend a process of unschooling, which is really spending most of the time allowing their children to follow their interests and putting mental health first before anything else. So lots of time to decompress and recenter, not fighting the passions and obsessions, but using those as primary and incorporating everything else around the passions and obsessions, and just lots of downtime to recenter.

Okay, so really quickly, the whole reason why I was saying that is because that's exactly what I was getting at, is that we have been, you know, my child is in fourth grade. He's been programmed that this is what school looks like. So there's already these, you know, these stigmas and these fears and these anxieties, you know, and so kind of just trying to let go of that whole mindset, you know, for them moving into this new phase.

Sorry. Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, that's. That's so right on. And I think that it's so. A lot of families recommend, and it's not necessarily best for everybody, but a period of deschooling where it's kind of a transition between what your environment was before and what it's going to be in the future. And especially with a child with autism, there are different ways that you communicate with your child and reason with your child. And some children have a real hunger for things being explained to them. And if that hunger Is there definitely explain everything as much as they need. I think that impulse to understand why things are happening in this way is great and you should really give all the explanation needed. So a period where you're just kind of like seeing what the passions are letting you know their child figure out this new environment, explore and then from there, you know, so, so that's like, that's really key is like, how do you transition, especially with a child who has difficulty with transitions. And that's why, you know, we have this summer break. So what is, you know, summer break like for your family? So then what people say over and over again is like to keep to rhythms and sequences, not schedules. So people really benefit often from having a flexible routine. So yes, like there is a lot of comfort in routine. So it's not saying a free for all, but as opposed to saying, you know, at 9:00am we do this. At 10:30 we do this. You have the same basic steps. So like every day we do breakfast, we do math, we do English language arts, but there's not a specific timeline. And then you also have that routine for bad days where there's lower expectations of what the steps are. So that can be really helpful. And then, you know, just like you're worried about, oh my gosh, am I, you know, am I doing everything that I need to do for school? You know, you can, you can empathize with your child having that feeling so.

Well, because it's deprogramming us too, you know, like such this box that we've all lived in.

Yeah. And then kind of along with rhythm and schedule is pace. Right. Because sometimes people, you know, especially, you know, I see this with families who have like an issue with like a lot of defiance against coming up in their child. There, there might be some fear, like, oh my gosh, they don't seem to be learning anything. And so, you know what, so what to keep in mind is that like next year, any time your, your child might suddenly make leaps and bounds in math or reading after you see no progress at all. And this is true for every child, but it's often more pronounced in a child with learning disability. So yes, you know, suddenly your autistic child can grasp what they couldn't get for years. And, and, and a lot of times the kids skills are a little bit all over the place. Like they can do algebra but can't tie their shoes or you know, and so that, and that's okay. You know, you can just discover what your own level of comfort is with that. But I Think that's kind of, you know, something to be in mind of. Just, like, don't put that pressure of, like, a linear pace, because learning doesn't happen that way as long as you are doing the math and doing the reading and moving forward and, you know, your kid enjoys the curriculum you've chosen.

Yeah.

You're on the right track.

Yeah. Because I feel like, again, some of that is just really. It starts with us. It starts with deprogramming what we think is absolutely, you know, it's not even necessary, and then we can work towards our, you know, our. Our child with more profound needs, and let's decompress from this, and then let's kind of start anew, you know?

Absolutely. And the thing is, I mean, Tasha, you have so much wisdom about your child. It's so deep and so profound, and fear sometime kind of muddies that up, as well as all of the messaging that parents get all the time that they're not good enough and they don't know what's best for their child. Because as. Even as a teacher, I was told, like, don't communicate with parents. Like, there's kind of, like, parents bugging us again. You know, What I've Learned in my 20 years of teaching is that parents really do know best. They do know what's best for their kid much better than what I know for their kid. And, you know, for example, like, I have a friend, he's a software engineer, and his son, like, didn't see the point of going to school and didn't see the point of learning math. And I said, why don't you just explain the point of learning math to him? And so he's like, oh, yeah. Well, actually, the other day, I was kind of talking about being a software engineer and this skill and that skill and kind of worked, like, yeah. You know, I mean, maybe it's, like, a legitimate question he's asking you. And so I just think that, you know, there's so much shyness from parents feeling like they don't know, but you really do.

You do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And go ahead, Shannon. Sorry.

We talk about the elephant in the room, which is, if I'm homeschooling my child, how do I get away from them?

Oh, this. Okay, you know what, Shannon? I am so glad you said that, because I think that is the. The biggest mistake that most people make when they're homeschooling is that they don't carve out that time to get away from their child. So.

Well, and. And quick side note, Manisha Shannon and I are both first responder wives. Wow. So sometimes we're, we're, we're deep in the solo parenting, you know, for days.

You're the wives of first responders. Yes.

So sometimes it's, you know, 24, 48, 72, 96.

Amazing. Okay.

Where does the reprieve come?

I can't send them to school.

Yeah, yeah, totally. So there's, there's two dimensions of this. One is what it's like to be with your child when you're homeschooling versus school. And the other is carving out that childcare time. So let's start with the childcare time. So I owe, what I say to every single parent is make sure you're getting at least three hours a week to yourself. And that's a tiny, tiny amount. Because if you don't get that, what happens is like, I saw a post in Reddit the other day which is like, I'm with my children 24, 7. I'm going nuts. Can I just get away for a week? I just. Is that allowed? And I said, well, why don't you just start with three hours? You know, just. Or an hour. Right. Five minutes. Start with something. And there's a wonderful writing program, Julie Bogart from Brave Writer. And she just carved out three hours a week where she would go the library and write. And that was the time she took for herself four kids. And so how do you get that time? You can do a child care swap, maybe find another parent who has a child who's autistic or is autistic themselves or just gets it right. A lot of people who homeschool our teachers and just swap once a week, you know that they're coming to your house or you're going to their house, or you sign up for one of these homeschool co ops, but you make sure you have that time. If you have the money, you hire a babysitter. Like, just, you know, that is a great solution. So you absolutely need that time. And the amount of time depends on who you are as a person. If you are a person who needs a lot of alone time, you carve out as much alone time as you need. That's really critical. And what you might find is that you actually get more alone time homeschooling than at school because you can actually determine what your childcare schedule is. You're not getting up early in the morning, driving your kid to school, picking them up, going to after school activities, making dinner, putting people to bed. It's like, where'd the school day even go. And so you can actually curate what feels best for you. The other thing is that you don't have a split reality where there's your child at school and you're at home and then it's. They're at home and you're at home. And this kind of change up is.

It's quite.

There's a lot of dissonance. Right. You're leading these two separate lives and then you come together and it's often the point of the day that you're most tired and have the least energy. But with homeschooling, you're really. You're kind of constantly redefining your relationship and getting to know each other. You have context for what's going on in your day. So the relationship is just a lot more peaceful because there aren't these weird breaks and changes like after school and summer. It's all part of one thing. So it's actually a lot less stressful. You don't have that kind of like craving the next. Next.

You know, when they're go back from break or.

Yeah. You know, you're just figuring out this kind of pattern that works for both of you and you're with each other when you're most calm and energized, not when you're most exhausted and annoyed.

Well, and I. And I think that's again, it too is just getting away from that mindset that you're sitting down at your kitchen table or wherever it is in your house, teaching them for six hours a day. You know, it's like letting go of that mindset. You know, that's not, I mean like you, like you've talked about and I'm sure you'll touch on here, but it can be out going out and doing things together and totally. Even the simple things of get. Going out and doing the, the grocery shopping or the, you know, whatever it might be. Yeah.

You can sleep in as late as you want.

Totally.

That makes sense.

That would never happen in my life. I love it.

What is sleeping in? I don't even know. Yeah.

You can also do stuff around the house. House. Like they can make stuff. Make food clean.

Yeah. Well, and. And I think that the great thing about that too is like teaching, you know, and specifically our children those, those life skills. Right. You know, if, if we don't know what's going to happen in their future. But teaching them those things of, you know, I'm going to prepare you to. To hopefully possibly be able to be living on your own here. Are you know, Absolutely. Here's how to cook, here's how to clean, you know, and. And not having it be this, you know, exhausting thing. Like, now you're home from school, you need to do your chores, then you can get on your. You know, it's again, breaking this mindset of this. Such. This.

Yes, exactly.

And I think making hand gestures right now. Nobody see me, but.

Yeah. And I find that a lot of parents find that their lives are much more relaxed. Relaxing once they start homeschooling. And, you know, it depends on the child. I mean, some children are just. When they get to be teens, they're so independent. They're, like, all running all around the city, going to different classes, hanging out with their friends. And some are more home bodies, you know, and so. And you just have time to kind of figure out your relationship dynamic, what you need, what they need. And it can be. It can be a really nice thing for people. You know, some parents are much more introverted. They need a lot more time to themselves, and they might have really extroverted kids. You can kind of find. Find out how to make that happen.

And then I'm thinking, too, you're talking about how, like, it's always the same. Like, there's not the summer break, there's not the fall break, the Christmas break. And then I'm. All I'm thinking is that means there's no transition to and from fall break and to and from Christmas break.

And how horrifying.

Yeah, horrifying that can be.

Because stressful for everyone. Oh, it is.

Gracie went back after fall break, and it was probably one of the hardest transitions back even after summer. Like, it was the hardest transition back we've had in a while. And it's like, wow, like, thinking about the fact that life is sort of like one cohesive.

Yeah. And you can constantly iterate and build upon it based on what you've learned.

And, well, again, it's taking that fear out of.

Of.

Out of our. Our children. You know, it's. It's. I mean, Jack is, like I said at fourth grade, and there he. There's been so much of this fear built in him. Whether it's okay now I know that this is. We're getting close to this break. And. And, oh, gosh, every day of the break, I'm going to ask, like, how many days of the break are left, you know, until we have to go back to school and.

Or the.

Just the fear of, you know, because he is becoming, you know, more aware. Like, I'm not I'm not like the other children. I'm. I'm. You know, there's just so much. There's so much of the. So much deconstructing of this, you know, societal. I don't even know what the words I'm looking for, but you know what I mean?

Socially and just socially engineered environment.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very interesting.

Yeah. And it's weird because, I mean, school is socially engineered and it's fake. You don't, you know, that's not what adults do, really. You know, adults don't really go. And, I mean, unless you have, like, a very serious 1950s desk job style, like, you just don't go and sit and, like, listen to a lecture and then another lecture and then play for 30 minutes. You know, it's very weird. And with only people the same age as you that you didn't choose to be around that just got assigned to you, it's very kind of fake environment. And if you don't feel comfortable in that environment, you start to think you're really weird and you're different. Even though, like, who would want to do that? Can you imagine? Even. I mean, personally, I would. I just would never take a class. I just can't sit still for an hour and listen to a lecture. And I would, you know, and I would probably wouldn't even get a tutor. I would just read this blog and that blog or throw it on my podcast about the subject. Right. Like, I have my own preferences and, you know, and even when it comes to socializing, like, back to this group I talked about in the Bay Area. So they all go to the playground. And we know there was a child in that group who he's on the autism spectrum. And he. I mean, he was verbal, but he would just kind of come to the group. There were parents there eating and kids playing on playground, and he would kind of just circle around the group and occasionally, like, go in and come out, go talk to a parent, go back to the group. And it was just totally at his own rhythm and level of comfort. And like. Like, everyone loved him, and it felt really good for him. And he didn't just have to kind of be stuck with this group of kids. He could really just be in the flow with his own level of comfort. And I just. I loved watching that because that was so organic compared to the kind of, you know, I hate to say, but almost like coercive, trying to, like, conform his behavior and teach him, like, a set of social skills that might be happening if he was in a more traditional environment that could be, you know, really stressful for him.

Yeah, it's the constant. Our children need to fit into this mold, you know, versus social, versus having the. The typical children, you know, fit into their. Their. Our world, you know.

Yeah.

And it doesn't have to be either way. Right. It has to just be a way of everybody's just. Just. Yeah, there is no. You're different because you go to this other classroom or, you know, you're maybe not from this country, and so your English is not very. You know what I mean? There's just such this, like all these stigmas that are just set. Set up from the beginning, you know.

I mean, I think at this point, 20% of children have been diagnosed with a learning disability, which is not even counting all of the kids. Kids who haven't been diagnosed, especially under resourced families. And I just don't think, like, whatever we think of as typical is just, you know, nobody who wants that to be like, sitting at a desk listening to a teacher. And. And some people. And I will say, like, this is probably why more boys are diagnosed with these types of learning disabilities, is they're more likely to act out. And of course, that's a gendered remark. It's different for every family. But, you know, it's the children who are acting out who are getting the help they needed. But there are a lot more children who are sitting there in pain, not getting the help they needed. And we know this from. Yes, exactly. Like, mental health crisis. And like, gifted and profoundly gifted kids are often, like, bored, deemed stupid. You know, I mean, it's just having really strong emotional actions. We see the teen mental health crisis. I mean, I can go on and on and on, but, you know, and that's not to deny, like, there are, you know, like, this is a serious diagnosis, and it's a real challenge as a parent. It's not like, oh, everybody is different, you know, but. But I do think there is something to be said for that, that, like, who could fit in this mold? It's not a comfortable environment.

Right, right. Yeah.

So many good things.

Head.

Head exploding emoji.

Should we talk a little bit more? I know I'm not interviewing myself, but I feel like we should talk about curriculum a little bit. Yeah, that is.

That is good, because I will say, Manisha, there's. That is. I think one of the things that I've talked to with all of my friends who homeschool their kids is what. What is the. And again, it's such A societal like, you know, guy, we have to do the best thing. But what is the best, you know, curriculum out there? What's the best? That's what my children need to have, you know, and it's like, well, okay, everybody calm down.

Yes. The impulse for every parent is, is what's your child using? I want to use that one. But in fact, what's exciting is that because the homeschooling movement has grown because of Google and YouTube and everything, there's just so much. But it's also hard because there's so much and there's just a huge range of curriculum. A lot of it is terrible. You know, if you want to use a Christian curriculum, that's great. But I will say like a lot of them are not based on scientific evidence. So if that's something that's important to you, you might want to look at other one. I mean, so I mean, I have, what I've done is I have gone through all of the homeschooling groups and all of the curriculum and I've vetted them for accuracy and pedagogy and tried to see like what is based on, you know, what we know about how children learn and, and what curriculum tends to work for different learning profiles, so to speak. So the first thing I will say is that for children with autism and online curriculum especially an adaptive online curriculum can often be a fantastic choice. So there two curriculums that I know families often like are Beast Academy. It's actually designed for gifted children, but then specifically the online version, not the textbook version. Autistic kids tend to just love. It's based on conceptual understanding rather than memorizing formulas. And the other one, especially children who are struggling with math, is touch math. And it's a little bit controversial, but I know that a lot of autistic kids have really thrived with that. Great. See does that at school. There you go. It's a great choice. And then, you know, and then I think that, you know, a lot of it is self directed. Education just tends to work really well. Kids can find what they like and what appeals to them. So those are really good. Moving beyond the page, it's not entirely secular. I mean it's more of like religious and talking about religion as opposed to like saying, you know, it's still based on science, but moving beyond the page is one that I know parents like. And then on the other side of it, some autistic children do really well with this more like hands on curriculum, especially in nature based curriculum. So blossom and root can Be really good. And that's just like being outside. Using stone sticks and wild math and wild reading are also good for that, for that type of child. So those are ones that I really like a lot. And I have a. I have a free curriculum planner that's like based on kids interests that I can send you the link to. But it's based on like 200.

Well, I put all of this in the show.

Notes for people.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's based on like 200 different archetypes of children that I've created. That's a combination of any learning disability, but also preferences for screen time, preferences for different types of activities. So what I usually say is, like, think about what types of activities your children gravitate towards when given the choice. Do they Want to watch YouTube videos? Do they want to play a video game? Do they want to play outside? Do they want to build with Legos? And from there, you know, find a curriculum that incorporates those skills because that's probably how they're learning.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Good.

That's good.

So good. Oh, my gosh. Are you ready to homeschool, Shannon?

Yeah, let's do it.

Let's do it right now.

I kind of feel. I'm feeling a little empowered right now.

Oh, good, good. That's my goal. I just want to empower parents to do what's the best for their family and their child.

Yeah, yeah.

Whatever that choice is.

Yeah. And, and, and again, I, you know, I'm sure Shannon will echo this. I. I think there's a. There's a place for both. You know, it's just absolutely. Homeschooling may just not be for some people or for some kids and definitely not taken away from, you know, those in the public, you know, school system, teachers, etc, that are, you know, trying to fight the fight.

Fight the good fight. Yeah. And I honestly believe that any family can homeschool, and it doesn't hurt your local public school. There are still ways that you can engage. And if you're not ready to take that leap, I fully support you as well. But I've seen single moms on welfare who homeschool. I've seen, you know, every kind of family with every kind of challenge make that choice. And I will just say that I realize today there is one type of family I don't think should homeschool, and that's the kind of family that's like, pressuring their kids to learn before they're ready. And I think there's a type of homeschooling that's very much fear based. And like when my child is two, they need to learn how to read, they need to do math. And it's not about what the child needs and wants, it's about what the parent needs and wants. And so what I hope for every family, I hope and pray is that they will find the courage to follow their child and their needs as opposed to operating from this fear based viewpoint. Because I think that ultimately any parent, if they really check in with themselves, they want to follow their child. But sometimes these fears can get in the way.

Yeah, yeah. I think that again, it's just breaking down all that, you know, programming, the programming that's happened.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is a perfect place to wrap up. I think just that final thought, I think is just perfect.

So good. And you know what helps break through the fears more than anything else is love. Because love is such a powerful force. And when you see that your child isn't doing well and you want something better for them, all of these misconceptions can just come crashing down.

Yeah.

My goodness, I like it. Manisha, why don't you tell our listeners how and where they can find you?

Absolutely. So I'm very easy to find. You can go to teachyourkidspod.com like podcast, very easy to spell on Apple podcasts, where teach your kids on YouTube, I would say Google teach your kids with Manisha, but it's also on the teacher kids pod. All the links are there. As I said in the beginning, you can listen to the podcast and get information and support if you join the online community. You know, there is like, we ask families to pay $15 a month, but if you cannot afford that, literally all you have to do is just send a message like you subscribe and it's free. And then you should get a confirmation email and then you just say, hey, Manisha, I can't afford it and you're in. I don't ask anyone to prove why they can't afford. I just trust that people who can afford it will help sustain the community and people who can't will just get access to the educational resources and from there, you know, I mean, we have child life specialists in our community who can give you advice on any type of learning disability, where to get diagnosis, how to get access to special services, what funding might be available in your area. If you say, hey, I want to find a coding tutor in person will find someone for you, you can say, I want a free math tutor. We'll find someone for you. I want to learn Japanese Or I want to find a homeschool co op or a local group. Literally, like, I'm feeling overwhelmed. Anything. The community and also the teachers and the child life specialists will be there to support you. So I really hope that people will ask questions. Feel free to challenge anything I said. That's why we're here. And Instagram, Manisha Instagram. Also, you can find a Teacher Kids at Teacher Kids.

Okay.

Yeah. And what I just always say is it's really all about empowering parents to have faith in themselves. So I don't know the answers. You do.

Yeah. So good.

Need to be reminded that.

Yeah, a lot.

Yeah. Like children. We need to remind ourselves, like. Like we do our kids. Right.

And that's why community is so important. I mean, we talk about it a lot, but, you know, that's. You guys have found each other and you've built this incredible community. It's just if you don't have that, you need that. You need other people who've been before you, who've been behind you. You need to be helping others. You need to be helped. It's just that's like food. If you're not. It's like, if you don't have community, it's like, you're not eating. It's life.

Like, you got to go to the meat market market.

Like Britney says every time we say that. From the beginning.

Because if they're not and they come in on that and they'll be like, huh?

What was happening?

What?

What was this podcast I just tuned into? What's happening?

The Kali podcast.

Oh, my gosh.

You have been just so wonderful. We appreciate you.

You so great to be here, and I appreciate you, and I'm just. I'm so happy we connected, and I just, like, can't wait to keep collaborating with you and getting to know your community better. It's just. I feel so happy and energized after this conversation.

I feel like my brain has been opened after this conversation.

That's what I said. Enlightened. You feel empowered. Yes. Yeah, it's good.

I love that fighting.

All right, guys, well, we will make sure we update all the show notes so that. That way you can just click the fancy little links in the show notes and in the email, and you guys can find Manisha that way. And we are going to say goodbye, ladies, say goodbye.

All right, guys, we will catch you.

Back here next week. And because you loved this episode so much, if you wouldn't mind hopping on and leaving us a review, we'd really appreciate it. Have a great day, guys.

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