Advocacy & Empathy In Integrated Leave, Disability, & RTW Policies Post-COVID19

Okay, back to the panel. Zoom is my nemesis, I swear to you. All right, here we go.

You are doing a great job.

Zoom the nimbus. Well, hello everyone, thank you for joining us today. We're gonna give it a couple minutes for everybody to come into the webinar. We are live streaming today to YouTube. And thank you for joining us live. And I am so excited to be doing this today.

I am too.

I know, I know. All right. Okay, we're gonna go ahead and get started. Um, thank you all for joining us today on this live webinar. And we are taking a huge look at advocacy, empathy, and integrated leave and disability management policies across all spectrum, not just workers' comp. A lot of times we think of leave and disability policies in sort of a generality terms, but it's really across all spectrums and it, it transcends workers' comp and really focuses around HR. So again, welcome to the webinar. My name is Margaret Spence, and I'm joined today by Alicia Thompson. And we're going to give it 2 more seconds. We had quite a few people registered, and everyone that registered will get a copy of the webinar replay that you can share with your team. We are live streaming, as I said, to YouTube. So this should be quite interesting. Let's see. And we will— okay. All right, so here we go. Advocacy and Empathy in Integrated Leave and Disability and Return-to-Work Policies. Oftentimes we don't think about adding advocacy and empathy to it. Generally, it's just this big thing of, you know, we've got to give an employee leave, we've got to give them disability benefits, we've got to return them to work. We're going to take a stab at all of it today, and this is a part of our COVID-19 webinar series. We want to show you how to care about employees' well-being as well as focusing on their the, the rote process, the law-driven process of, um, of integrated leave and disability management. And also, you know, do you really have a leave and disability management policy? Is that true that you have one? So today's webinar is in partnership with workcompseminars.com— that is my website— and Lycia Thompson Coaching and Consulting LLC, and that is Lycia's website. And let me do some housekeeping before we get started. If you have questions as we're going, please put them in the chat box or the Q&A. I will check both of them. We are going to make this very interactive. We want you to participate. We want you to be a part of this. Ask questions. Feel free to pose the scenarios that are going on in your workplace now. So that we can attempt to give you some advice. As I said at the beginning, everyone will receive a link to the replay of the video. Everyone who stays to the end, and Zoom sort of tells us who stays to the end, you will get a survey following the webinar asking you about other topics that we should bring forward or other areas that you are struggling with in your organization. So for those of you who don't know me, my name is Margaret Spence. I am the CEO of C. Douglas Associates. We are an HR and risk management company based here in sunny, too hot Florida. I've spent about 32 years empowering organizations around HR and workers' comp, and we manage claims oversight for multiple organizations across the country. I've written 3 books in the workers' comp space, From Workers' Comp Claimant to Valued Employee, The Inter-Management Challenge, and my latest book is Leadership Self-Transformation: Helping Women Manage Their Career Effectively. So I am absolutely excited to be partnering to make this happen. So I'll tell you, everyone that I've done these webinars with, and for those of you who've joined us on our other ones, have been people in my Rolodex that I've reached out to and said, "Do you want to do this with me?" And I was so excited that we could bring this together. So our speaker has such an amazing career. She spent 20+ years at Macy's as their workers' comp return to work and managed care director, and she left Macy's and went over to Amazon, which is even bigger if you're in the retail space. We were commenting earlier before we started the webinar that we all live in this Amazon order place right now because of COVID-19. She became the senior Senior Accommodation and Disability Consultant with Amazon. So Alicia's career— and I spelled your name wrong. I just looked at it. I'm sorry.

It's okay.

I have an E instead of an I. And I was like, okay, I'm going wrong. It's all good. I'll fix it. I will fix it.

Sorry.

So she is also an energy leadership coach and strategic disability consultant. She works with organizations to help them understand how to integrate their return-to-work program, their leave and disability program. But more important than that, and one of the reasons why we're on this webinar today, she wants to ask you to bring more than just a partial process to the table, bringing to the table the human side of leave and disability and really focusing on how do we bridge where the employee is and where we need to get them to. And how do we use her skills as an energy leadership coach to make that happen? So we're going to talk a little bit about that as we go through the process. So what are we going to cover today? Oh my God. So we are going to cover a bunch of stuff. One of the things that I don't know that we are all thinking about post-pandemic leave and disability management. How many people are going to show up after this asking for something? And are we going to be able to give it to them? Who has a limitation? What documentation do we require? What should our post-pandemic leave and return to work policy look like? So before we get any further, Hang on 2 seconds. Let me stop the share and give us an opportunity to just talk through what we are seeing. So tell me from your perspective, where are we with leave and disability management?

So I think based on what I have heard and seen, I think we are still a little antiquated, even— and I, I say that with love because that is my career path I've been involved in for many years of my life, but my concern is still the same as it was then, meaning that there is still room for improvement regardless of how great an organization feels their program is. And then some organizations are still struggling to even have an environment that is open to integrated leave and return to work combined. And so kind of want to just focus on that a little bit with respect to the pandemic in particular. Creating a whole new environment that needs to be dealt with. And so what I really mean by that is ordinarily we would just look at speaking with employees who have limitations and then, of course, creating an environment for the interactive dialogue. And for anyone who's viewing who's not familiar with that lingo, interactive meaning just the employer reaching out to have a conversation with the employee so that they can gain perspective from the employee standpoint regarding what they need for an accommodation possibly in the workplace. So now we're dealing with not only that, but we're also dealing with people who continue to work during the pandemic because they are an essential employee, and they could have also been injured or become ill during that work process. So, we're adding that environment as well as bringing people back who may have been laid off or furloughed also could have been injured or become ill in the workplace prior to being furloughed or laid off. So, if they have accommodation needs, we're adding that to those that may have already existed prior to COVID-19. Could be temporary and/or permanent limitations that all need to be accommodated. So it just makes an already complicated process even more complicated. So just want to kind of walk down that road a little bit in a couple of aspects or a couple of areas, as Margaret alluded to. So just looking at what employers, I would hope, have already begun to say to this population of employees that we're discussing today. So I'm hopeful that the majority of employers have already reached out to them, but if that hasn't occurred because of everything else going on, and it's a lot, so I don't mean to minimize the work that employers are having to address, which is brand new because of this, the size and the severity of this particular pandemic. So in addition to everything else, I just want to actually plea or call to your attention not to overlook the employees who are not coming back at 100% because of these injuries or illnesses and the need for accommodations. And so what that really means is talking to them basically just— Letting them know they've not been forgotten because many of us are working from home right now. And a lot of people have never had to do that in the past. So you have the percentage who did it and wanted to and who's already done that prior to COVID. But now we have an increased number of people having to figure it out and navigate through all the nuances, which can create anxiety. In many cases, a lot of people are struggling working from home. And then you have the other people who love it and don't want to go back to offices. So thinking about all of that, some people that I've spoken to haven't heard from their employers since they were sent home. So that has created a different mindset. A lot of them don't want to go back. They have begun looking for other jobs because of all of these feelings that they have— that it has created for them, whether it's perception as reality or not, but they don't know because they aren't feeling valued. So that's one, one concern. And then the others who may have kept in touch and have a really good relationship are possibly ready to go back, but then what— they might not know the first steps about what to do if they've never had an injury or an illness before. So that leaves a person feeling quite anxious, worried, scared, and all of the other emotions that can accompany that. So I just want to just chat a little bit about some aspects of that or some avenues around that that could be explored. But to even begin the exploration process, I would urge employers to appoint someone who will be that person or persons who will begin to reach out. So even if there isn't a concrete date with respect to when you're opening up businesses, because of course it varies per state, and all of that information hasn't fully been vetted out by, by the federal government nor the local municipalities, and we're doing it differently depending on the individual states. Again, another different aspect to contend with. But meanwhile, that— this is the prime time, prime opportunity, in my opinion, to start making calls just to talk with employees, kind of getting their mindset around, we will be reaching out to you in the near future to start that process to create place— a place and an accommodation if needed. Here's what we need you to be doing in the interim. And so what that looks like is, if there is a need for an accommodation, the employees most likely will need new notes. So if they already were accommodated prior to the work from home, because of the amount of time that has lapsed, it's very probable that the effective dates of the note may have already been exhausted, may have lapsed. And so you want to talk with them about how to go about getting a new note. So there are concerns about even going to doctors' offices to do that. So that's a good opportunity to talk with them about telemedicine, for example. Depending on the type of injury, they may be able to have conversations to even show body parts and range of motion and things of that nature, which will enable a physician to write a new note if it's even needed. If someone has permanent limitations, then definitely we need to make sure if these are new, We need to make sure that that is documented in writing. So, we want to have those conversations now so that the employees are armed with the tools and the documentation that they need versus waiting until the state opens up the ability and the dates to start migrating back into the various workplaces. What we don't want to happen is that that happens, those dates are available, and no one has spoken to this— this percentage of the employee population, so now you're talking with them about getting this documentation, which will just further prolong and delay their ability to come back, and you need them. You know, we need them to come back to resume as much as possible the essential functions of the various jobs to get businesses going again. So timing is of the essence. But the other component that is also critically important is how are you speaking when you talk with them? What types of words, what types of messages are you sending? And I mention that because it's really important for employers to also meet with the employees who will administer these processes. And I would recommend those conversations take place first because as an employer, you really want to get in the head of your employees who are doing the outreach to people who are maybe even more frightened and anxious because they're not feeling at 100%. So that creates a whole different mindset around coming back to work. But what I mean about— go ahead.

So here's how I want to— I'd love to unpack all of that. I think For those of you on the webinar, and you can chime into the chat and chime into the Q&A, how many of you right now have employees who were on some kind of leave and disability program before COVID-19, and you anticipate bringing those employees back? Because I also think that employers are going to run into trouble wouldn't you say, when they make decisions about who comes back? Absolutely. You know, because you don't want to set yourself up for bringing some— you know, bringing one set of people back and not bringing— deliberately picking out all your people with disabilities and not bringing any of them back. So you've got those whole two divides. So when you, when you talk about, um, the supervisors and the managers and the people who are administering the disability policy, tell me what that would look like.

So I believe that it would be advantageous to just meet with them to empower them to have really open and transparent conversations. None of us knows all the answers right now. This These processes, along with everything else going on, changes daily. So being really honest and vulnerable and letting those employees also know that we understand they also are coming to work with some anxiety as well because of the uncertainties, but empowering them to actually be a part of the solution by offering up some suggestions, because they're the frontline working with, you know, on behalf of the employer to bridge the gap to bring people back. So if you are a senior leader, you're not on the phone talking to the injured employee who needs the accommodation. So it is imperative, I believe, to empower those individuals who will be working directly with the employees, bringing them back, but to give this other group just empower them to have a different type of conversation. And then there will be a lot of roundtables, I foresee, that are needed, meaning sit down and just brainstorm about how to best bring people back with appropriate accommodations, how to make that happen as timely as possible. Things aren't going to look the same as they did before, and in all honesty, I don't believe they should look the same because this is a prime time to to elevate or to tap into areas that may have not been working cohesively prior to COVID-19. This is a good time to also brainstorm now, but be ready with the quickness to start with those processes and figure out where the gaps in the processes were previously. How can we bridge those gaps? And for example, what I mean by that would be a scenario— many scenarios, actually— wherein the notes are given to the employer, whether it's given to the supervisor or to HR or whomever, but the employer has received a note that states an individual employee is in need of an accommodation. In the past, we have seen a huge gap in many instances, not all, But in many instances, there's a delay from the date that the note was written and the effective date for the return to work if the accommodation is in place. By the time that's received by the employer, several dates may have already lapsed. And then when you add those dates to the dates or the timeframe it takes to work through the interactive process to create the accommodation, now we're adding on more dates— —and then you add— and already add those things to the dates. So we want to really focus on looking at better ways to use analytics now because they— we're better, we're better now in this industry than we were even a few years ago when it comes to technology. And so I know there's a cost involved and a lot of employers are not wanting really to add to the operating expenses. However, when you look at big picture, long term, it would save money to get it right now versus ignoring it and continuing to do business as status quo.

And so when you were working both at, you know, at Macy's and Amazon and your real-world experience bringing that to the table, Where did you see the cross-functional gaps? I mean, I know you described HR and you talked about supervisors and managers. For me, one of the things that I see from the consulting perspective, and you also from the consulting perspective, is everybody doesn't communicate cohesively. Right. And it seems to me like everybody has their own agenda when it comes to delivering a message around leave and disability policy. So what did you see in your real-world experience?

Yeah, I actually, I would say I saw the same. What I learned though that is helpful is actually creating a standard operating rate, SOPs. A lot of organizations want to historically, strayed away from that because of the auditing concerns. If someone, you know, outside auditors are called in from time to time to just take a look at programs within every organization. And so sometimes people have strayed away from putting any processes and policies in writing in the event that someone missed a step that would hurt in the audit. I have been around a while and seen it both ways, and I actually, feel as though placing processes and policies in writing is helpful with— from the standpoint of continuity, and then also delivering the same expectation or the same message of the expectations to the people who handle these processes. And I honestly don't want to keep saying that they are complicated, but having been in that world, being truthful, there are a lot of steps in the process that is— that are required to navigate to get someone back with accommodations. There are a lot of touch points. There are a lot of different teams that are working. For example, you have the workers' comp claims team who is speaking with the injured worker and explaining that this documentation is needed. It comes in in a wide array of of ways. It could be tight, it could be embedded in the HICVA form in small print. It could be easily overlooked if you're not trained to look for it there. So that's a point of training. And then it could come in on a separate note. It could be in a medical report. It could also be in an IME report. So it takes a really savvy person who is alert at work to be able to multitask all day, every day, and be on the phone and typing in the system. That person may be working with a nurse case manager. The nurse case manager is having conversation with the injured worker and also with the physician and may get documents faxed or sent directly to them. So now we're expecting the nurse case manager to deliver that, which typically they do, but where is it going? So that differs depending on the employer and how those processes have been created. So, for example, if the nurse case manager delivers it to the claims handler, claims handler then delivers it to LOA if the person's on a leave. But if the leave— if that document gives a return date, leave of absence is now sending it over to the return to work team. Too much, too many, it's confusing, it creates unnecessary delays, and those delays equate to money lost for an organization. So again, because I'm trying to stress the need to revamp these processes, particularly at this time in our lives when we're coming back to new environments anyway, why not take an opportunity to create a new environment for this chaos that often occurs in, in this, this world that we're speaking of. So cohesiveness is definitely needed. Where, where I come from in my prior work experience, we did a lot of meetings, cross-team meetings with the best of intent. We created processes, people walked away, everyone says, I understand, that's a great idea, that's how we're going to do it, and then you get a change in staffing, and it's busy because you're trying to get that person up and running as quickly as possible. So sometimes there are missteps in the training process because we're in a mode of we have to get this person, you know, on the phones and actually being productive. But those misses just make the matter even more complicated. So I, having looked back over many years and trying to work with teams cross-functionally to create a more seamless transition of all this paperwork. I'm now at a vantage point a little different because I've stepped away and really had some time to look back. And I've had additional conversations. And I thought I would never say this, but I actually have landed in the belief that these processes do belong in HR. And where I— where I worked and was the director, We brought the process into risk management, into the workers' comp area purposefully because we wanted to control the financial spend coming from the claim, from the lost time indemnity payments. We wanted to expedite the process and get people back to work to reduce that spend. And while we were effective doing it once we received the restrictions, But it's all the other moving parts that we still didn't have control of. So now when I look back at that, I actually am a firm believer that these processes belong in one area where there is oversight from one particular group who then has the ability and the power to mandate that there are audits. From time to time to check to make sure that things are— the touchpoints are successful, and if not, what additional processes need to be put into place. So my belief is reporting all of these processes, reporting into HR, because at the end of the day, if something goes wrong, HR will be the first team that knows, because the employee or their attorney, whomever, someone from EEOC, or whomever will reach out typically to HR to figure out who, who their points of contact really should be. So my recommendation at this point, which I kind of laugh because I wouldn't have said this many years ago because I was in the work comp department, I reported into risk management, and that's where I believed it belonged. I loved working through all of these processes because Previously, I was a work comp manager, so in my mind, it belonged in work comp. But if we're going to make improvements, as we should, then I just believe that if HR has oversight and truly understands the mission— because HR didn't always understand the mission because they weren't a part of these processes. They only got involved when a complaint arose. But if, and so no one was doing audits of the entire program, meaning the touchpoints with LOA, the touchpoints with claims, return to work, all of the nurse case manager, no one really is looking at all of it collectively. They're looking at each individual group. As silos. As silos. And that is wherein the problems arise and in many cases aren't really seen until the EEOC charge— excuse me— comes in or an attorney is calling and threatening whatever it is, looking for, you know, settlement or what have you. But why continue to operate in that type of mindset? So that's where I am, Margaret. My recommend— and if it's not HR, then, It might be called employee relations, or it may have a different title depending on the size of the organization, but the purpose would be the same, to have oversight, bring the teams together to create more seamless transition. How best to do that isn't sending an email and working in multiple systems all day, every day. So, for example, My experience has been I have 3 screens. I'm in leave of absence, checking to see if the person— looking at eligibility to see if they have eligibility remaining for a reduction of hours restriction or to see if they're nearing the point of leave exhaustion and how much— how fast do we have to work to get them back so that they're not terminated because you know, they exceeded their eligibility. So that's one system. But then I'm in the claim system because the date ended on one document, but I know that this person's telling me they still are disabled. So now I'm in the claim system and I'm looking because it would take— it's easier for me to do that and quicker than to then delegate that over to the claims handler to wait when they have a very active caseload as well. So to eliminate that, wouldn't it just be ideal to create a system wherein these other entities feed into and can generate reports, and these reports would then bump up against each other through advanced analytics? Surely that makes more sense to me, and that would be the recommendation. Yes, it's going to cost a little money. Yes, it's going to cost a little time to create it. But it can be done because we're in an age of technology, and just my belief is that anything can be done from a technological standpoint if you find the right people who are willing to take on the projects and talk with the people who handle all of these different aspects to bring those together. And I agree with that.

I think, um, so one of the things that I've, I've said in my own consulting practice over the last 21 years is I don't work in work comp. When I made the decision to leave the workers' comp desk and go out to be a consultant, I don't work in workers' comp because if you work in workers' comp, you actually miss the part about the fact that we've hired someone, you know, because workers' comp tends to keep people in this silo of it's a claim, it's a claim, it's a claim. The reality is it's an employee, it's an employee, it's an employee, you know. And so What you find is, you know, a lot of organizations don't do cross-functional training between HR and risk management. And one of the things that I've seen in my time is risk management loves to hold on to the pocketbook. We are so good at grabbing a hold of that checkbook and we drive everything based on the ultimate checkbook. Forgetting that there's an employee in this process. One of the concerns that I have now is I think that a lot of employees are going to come back to work needing accommodations, and I don't think that we are mindful yet of what that's going to look like. I mean, if an employee tested positive for COVID and they were in the hospital and they recovered, It's my understanding that they're still having symptoms and symptomologies going on, right? Okay. How much of that was a work-related exposure? A lot of states are taking the position that COVID-19 is not work-related. It's in the general environment. And a lot of employers are taking the position that didn't happen here. You know, we had nothing to do with that. Even though these may be essential workers that are working in an environment that's creating an opportunity for them to have a greater degree of viral load than other people. So, but here's where I see people going wrong is not being able to integrate workers' comp, COVID-19, regular accommodation, all rolled into one, and staying EEOC compliant staying risk management compliant, staying compliant with your requirement to have conversation with the injured worker or the affected employee, and having the appropriate documentation under one umbrella where in that umbrella, um, we have the ability to, um, to, to put information, you know, out there in this umbrella. So So the question is, you know, the question for you is how do we, you know, I think, how do we train our teams to understand their importance in this process? What's been your experience around that?

Big question, big question, Margaret. So So there are a couple of answers, a couple of responses I'll give to that. We've talked in the past about how it would be advantageous to cross-train new hires, meaning so when they come in, an accommodation need is an accommodation. Doesn't matter if it's occupational or non-occupational. It's still— requires the same process, first of all. And then temporary and/or permanent, still, you still have to go through the same process to create the, you know, to engage in the interactive dialogue process. Does the employee really need to have to talk with or sign paperwork and send documentation to all these different teams? Or would the employer, the organization, and the employee who, who was wanting to come back be better served with just having one contact person? But that one contact is then cross-trained, not necessarily through every nuance. I mean, they don't have to be a subject matter expert for the entire subject, but would need to know enough about the type of conversation so the employee then is only talking with one person. That one person explains, this is what's needed, this is how this process will look, and so at this time what I need from you is, you know, for you to send the note, really just send the note. That one person can then reach out to all these other teams, depending— people on these various teams, depending on what steps are needed in the process. But to eliminate the confusion, at least one person is aware of everything going on, and they can then reach out to HR or to the supervisor to create the accommodation. That's one way of looking at it. It just would eliminate a lot of— confusion. If that person happens to be out, though, let's say things have calmed down, they're taking a couple days off work, we have to have someone else who's obviously able to step in because we can't just leave that unattended because there's so much, there's so much going on all the time with trying to maintain the accommodation, making sure the person's able to perform the essential functions, and, um, And that can change from day to day, as we all know. So did I answer your question, or do you— Yeah, you did, you did.

Because I think, um, I think one of the, one of the, the, um, one of the challenges I see, especially for people who are exclusively handling workers' comp or exclusively handling the HR side, is what's the cross-functional training that has to occur on both sides? You know, how do I train my team to understand why this is even important to them? You know, how do I train my team to understand, um, the importance of the interactive process? Um, one of the things that I, that I liked about, um, your description earlier is if, if the person is coming to a disability status via, um, um, workers' comp, that's where it gets even more convoluted because adjusters don't always understand what a disability means in terms of— they know what a return to work status is, but they don't know the rest of it, which is, um, what does this mean for the employer? They know what it means for the workers' comp claim, but they don't really have an idea what it means for the employer. And then when you take that on you got the case manager, you have the doctor, you have an IME provider, you have a person who's a second opinion in some states. Everybody's issuing a different thing. You have the treating doctor who may have his own opinion about whether the person's ability is in status or out of status. So when you're dealing with all of that, I know that SOPs is not something people want to write down. You don't want to write down your standard operating procedures. But if you don't do anything, don't you think— wouldn't you agree that a checklist is even a flowchart of where you should go? It's like you feel like you need to give— you have to give people some guidance.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And in addition to even giving the guidance, I think you have to meet with them periodically. Does that look like once a quarter? Does it look like biannually? But you can't just train them and then not circle back to— some people have weekly meetings with their teams. Weekly may not be necessary. Only the manager would know what their team needs. But my concern is when nothing is done and we train them on the front end and then we turn them loose and all of these other things are happening, and that is overwhelming just for that particular person who is dealing with Or even overwhelming for the claims person. That's how we lose talent, you know, in a lot of instances, because the job is stressful in and of itself. But when you add all of that, and then statutory laws often change in different states, you're adding that to, you know, ADA, you need to know ADA, you need to understand EEOC. Well, if you're in California, you need to understand FEHA. Plus you're adding that to everything else, so that just creates a lot of stress. So yeah, I am an advocate for bringing people together at least at a minimum, ideally quarterly is good. Ask them what they have questions around and then create some training to address that. That's just open-door policy at all times, it tends to work. Because if you're the manager or if you're the director, you're just a little too removed from the day-to-day real life, what those challenges look like.

Yeah, and that, that, that can be true. So one of the areas that I work a lot in is in healthcare, and I think for healthcare workers, I think this interactive accommodation process is something that we're not even looking at. And that is a huge exposure right now because we don't, we haven't really evaluated the psychosocial place that people are in. You know, where are they from a psychosocial standpoint? What are the, what are the accommodations that people are going to start asking for that aren't the ones that they asked for before?

Right, there's going to be a huge onslaught of, um, people going for treatment around anxiety, depression, um, all of those. Um, if you're coming from an occupational health side, usually you're dealing with physical needs versus the psychological, but now we're going to be adding them to probably existing or just brand new standalone. And so, so yes, but the process is the same, right? You still need the documentation, you still engage in the interactive dialogue to find out what they need, but I think the language that is used, not necessarily the language, but the words that are used I think needs to be different. Not so push, push, rush, rush, rush, even though time is of the essence, but we need to balance it with using words that are a little more empathetic. As the employer, we want people to know that they are valued and that we want them to come back. We want to honor their needs. And so just taking some time to train those employees who will be engaging initiating the interactive dialogue process on just acknowledging the employee, because they're going to want to tell you about what's going on. That's just natural. But now they're telling you a different story because they've had difficulty buying groceries. They've had difficulty paying bills just to keep their, you know, things that we take for granted, like the heat, the cooling, the water, all of those things. People are really struggling. Particularly depending on the job they have. Some people have not been paid, and so they're behind. They need to get back to work, but they're afraid to come back because when they come back, you know, COVID-19 has— they have— they already predisposed to, let's say, asthma, and so they're coming back and they need a physical or psychological accommodation, but how is the employer going to protect them? Because they also need to come back with a mask and be 6 feet or more away from their coworker. And so, those are— all of those are legitimate concerns that need to be talked about and addressed to make the employee even feel safe coming back. And that's a challenge because that changes. Actually, a couple days ago, I heard that— You know, while state, local governments are recommending 6 feet apart, the reality is if someone sneezes or coughs, you really need to be more like 12 feet away because of that, you know, it travels. And so I'm not sure if I've heard yet employers expanding that 6 feet from your coworker guidance, But I think that is probably going to also need to be addressed. So how do we do that? That's a case-by-case type of conversation. We can't issue an edict that would be a one-size-fits-all, and that just adds to the challenge. But yeah, so lots of conversations, but these don't have to be long, lengthy conversations. They just have to be direct, to the point, and then go back to the employee because you don't want to place that— that fear or the unknown. You don't want to heighten that for someone who is already in that mental state anyway.

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that is troublesome for me is if an employee already had some underlying mental health challenges. And I think at the beginning when we started, there might have been some overlooking of what you said at the very beginning, which is, are you reaching out to the employee? Even if we furloughed that person, are we still reaching back out to say, how are you doing? How are you managing? It's an uncomfortable conversation to have with somebody, especially if you call and they're boo-hooing on the phone and saying, I can't buy my groceries. I can't feed my kids, blah, blah, blah. And you're the bad employer for letting me go. But I think also people genuinely want to know that we care. And that's part of why we're doing this webinar, because it's really easy for us to fall into the policy places that we have to go. You know, we all know that we have to fall into the policy places, but we don't have to fall into the policy places where we remove the human from the human. You know, the HR is the first word in HR is human, human, right. And I think we often, we, we, we have uncomfortable conversations with people, But we've got to take a new edict, a new directive around this where we say, as an employer, I still have an obligation to the human person that's showing up in front of me. And now the fact that more people may ask for an accommodation can be troublesome for some employers. Wouldn't you think that that's where we're first going to go to? Really, there can't be anything wrong with you.

Right, right, which is totally the wrong approach to take because we don't know how this has impacted individuals. And people process pandemics, anything new and out of the ordinary. I mean, people process change, um, you know, when, when their lives change from the norm that they are accustomed to. People— some people struggle with processing the change, and we're talking on a small scale normally, but so now you amplify that by the pandemic and that we've been on a stay-at-home order, that just adds and heightens some underlying, um, um, situ— or conditions that some people ordinarily have been able to manage. And so I think it ideally We have to have separate conversations, though. The leaders have to have separate conversations with those who reach out to these employees, because the mindset of the person who's making that contact has to be in a different place, even though they too probably are feeling some anxiety as well. That's natural and normal, so I don't want to downplay it. I mean, as you said, we're— We're humans. It's normal to feel different about everything going on. Some people are angry even. And so that's a whole nother topic, right? A whole nother level of emotion. Some people are angry at their employer. They're angry because they can't go, you know, to a store normally, or they have to just change their everyday life. And some people carry that anger longer than others, so they're going to bring it to work with them. So ideally, as a leader, we need to have conversations with the people to find out if— are you in a mental place? Are you able to show compassion and caring when you're talking with someone who has maybe anxiety as well as depression, but they also have a physical injury that needs to be accommodated as well? So they're in a different mindset altogether. And they're afraid. So it is a lot, but we need to— my recommendation is, and I guess that's what I kind of meant without, and I should have been more specific, but that's what I meant when I said what type of language, what type of words when we're speaking with them, how do we sound? Are we calm? Because we need to be, you know, we don't need to display or place our anger and our frustration. We don't need to join and jump into their situation and co-sign with what they're feeling, but we want to hear them. We want to let them say what they need to say, but we still want to respond to it by acknowledging and redirecting because to not acknowledge doesn't feel good. So I don't know that everyone's capable of showing up that way. Um, it takes a certain skill set to, to be of that mindset, to be able to put your concerns to the side while you're dealing with someone else because you're trying to be helpful to them and not damaging. But not everyone can or wants to because that's a lot of thought involved in just being able to show up in that way. And so that's why I said I think it behooves a manager to be able to have conversations. I mean, we're all on Zoom anyway, and so why not start having those conversations with the people who need to then talk with the actual employee who has a need? For all we know, the person who's delivering the call also has needs as well. So those need to be addressed before putting them in a situation wherein they are— needing to show the empathy, the compassion, the empowerment. You know, transparency works. For some people, it's awkward. I've always found that it's beneficial to be just honest. Be honest. If we don't know answers, say you don't know. Go get the answer and come back and then deliver. But to pretend as though you haven't heard what someone is expressing as a concern just makes the matter worse. And in many cases ends up with an employee losing faith and trust in their leadership. And we don't need that right now either. So— Right, right. Lots of conversations. Just, I really, really, really want to encourage managers, people in leadership roles to please reach out and start having these conversations, FaceTime, You know, going through apps are available, ideal because you can see the emotion on people. And you may need to just work with the people that are your direct reports first, then bring them together with these cross-functional teams. And bringing them together, meaning the leadership, bringing those folks together to create strategies to navigate. But we have to be— Understanding that most people are not coming back like, I'm happy to be back, everything's good, because everything isn't good yet. It's better, and we're still evolving, but we aren't there. And so we need to acknowledge that and meet people where they are, but we still have to get the job done at the end of the day and do the right thing for the people in need. It's not going to be— right, yeah.

So if you're going in to work with an organization what would you be saying to them first? And what is your vision for what a proactive or strategic integrated disability management program would look like? So I really want to hear, and what I want to share with the audience, because Alicia and I have had a bunch of different conversations, and Her take on this is very different. It's different from what we think of in our own way of managing ability versus disability and managing accommodation. And so I really want to ask you to be open to hearing how she frames this and then how the tools that could be used, because one of the concerns that I have, and this will give you a couple seconds to frame this up, but I think one of the concerns that I have is that those of us who are practitioners who are in this road here now, we're often forgotten in the practitioner process. You know, we, we, we get into this and we're doing this work. It's hard work. We're having to listen to multiple challenges that people present to us. And we also need a voice and a place to go to, to talk through the challenges that our employees bring to us that end up becoming a part of our energy space, a part of our DNA, a part of our mental state. And so oftentimes, um, nobody talks about the practitioner, us, those of us who are listening to this, those of us who are in the trenches every day. And, and I often, and I think right now it's going to get worse. I think more employees are going to present themselves with more challenging dichotomies that we have to be able to listen to it, not take it on, not feel personal about it, be able to do our job effectively and then push through at the same time, but go home to our families going, okay, I'm home. I've just had 50 employees dump their entire life on me. And I don't know where to go with this either. So having framed all of that, tell me what your thoughts are about this.

So honestly, my response to that would be maybe a different response than people might have expected, but I am a firm believer that because of the type of work that we do in all of the areas that we've been talking about, not just on the accommodation side, but also in leave of absence These are all positions that take a lot away from a person if we're not careful to try to separate and have some type of work-life balance. And then now sometimes people are going to be working more hours than they were previously because they're working from home. Sometimes it just happens that way. But I think we have to encourage people to be careful and to honor their own needs as well and take some time to make sure that their head is in the right place, to be blunt. But sometimes you need help with that. So helping could just be reaching out to a coach, someone who can talk with them to help them see things differently. So there are opportunity— I believe that there are opportunities in every aspect of life. So it comes down to how we choose to look at life and as individuals, and then it comes down to how we choose to show up in the world. Um, so what I mean by opportunities, even in the midst of the tragedies that are occurring and have occurred, um, it is devastating. Um, it takes a toll on even the best person who operates at the highest level of of intellect and emotional health. However, repetitive— repeating these— what am I trying to say? So I'm trying to say when we continue to hear the news and when we have family members and others that we know who are really facing a lot of devastation, naturally would take a toll. And then you're trying to work with all of that in your head. You may be losing sleep and all of that. So I think reaching out is good. I mean, we're not saying— just reaching out is a part of mental health, positive mental health. Reaching out just to get clarity around how you want to show up in life and in work, I think, is one of the best things people can do to acknowledge it. Clarity can come in the form of a couple of sessions. I mean, I'm not talking you have a diagnosis and you're going to— to receive medication. I'm not saying that. I'm talking about the people who are accustomed to functioning at high levels, but because so much has been and will continue to go on, you want to show up with your full authentic self at work, but sometimes it's hard to even process who you are now that all this has occurred. I think we all are— should be evolving to be better, not worse, but to be better people. But I think it's a good time to reach out to talk with coaches who've been trained and are certified, because there are a lot of people out there coaching that haven't been trained or certified. So, and being honest and transparent, you want to find those who I think have gone through some specific guidance around tools that can be implemented. And utilized, and it just helps to gain focus. Values, for example, is a big, big thing, a big area for me, because some people, I don't know if they have really sat down and thought about what their values are. What do they stand for? What do they— what will they not stand for? I mean, those things are important. And so thinking about just how you want to navigate through life, you want to be empowered, right? We want to be confident. Sometimes it's hard to be confident when you're confused. So speaking with the coach might only take 60 minutes, 90 minutes, 3— it may be 6 months. It depends on the individual, but know that coaches are available. That's the purpose of going down that road as a career path. So I'm speaking from the point of bringing those types of— that type of, um, guidance into the workplace because it can only help. It's not, it's not a negative at all. Um, so I hope that is helpful. Um, just one last thing on that, but, um, speaking of physical energy and, um, mental energy, two different things, right? But they, they work together cohesively, and sometimes we just look at one and not the other. I did. I've always worked out, so in my mind I'm looking at physical energy, but I have learned the importance of also tapping into mental energy, meaning you want to know how to elevate your own individual mental energy. So if we're feeling kind of low, kind of like overwhelmed because of everything going on, there are tools and guidance around how to look at these situations, finding opportunities within the madness, if that makes any sense. It's hard to do that for yourself if you don't even know that this philosophy exists. So that's why I think, if I'm answering your question, my recommendation is to reach out. Yeah, I think so.

I think one of the things that also, if I would add to that, I think that as employers, we have to start thinking out of the box. You know, how do we support our employees, but also how do we support our team members? And if a person's coming back into the workforce force post-COVID-19, and you see them having challenges, do we just stop at taking a doctor's note from that person? If that is that our only obligation? So this is how I want to frame this up. Is, is it our, is it our only obligation to just take the doctor's note from that person, process it and give them their leave? Or do we now in this time decide that we're going to add an added piece of instrument for people to help them through this. And within your leave and disability program, how do you now take a different look at that leave and disability program, shake it free, and say, okay, typically what we did before is we process the paperwork, because that's really what we're doing. The government says I must have an interactive conversation with you. The government says I must offer you an accommodation. The government says I must determine where it fits in my business The government tells us to do all of that. OK. But now this real person is coming back to you scared, vulnerable, unnerved, and having underlying issues that are now surfacing in your workplace. What do you offer to that person? Do you then kick in and start adding telemedicine? Do you kick in and say, do I offer telepsych— psychological treatment? Do I kick in and say maybe I need to add some coaching? The EAP. Add coaching, you know, add coaching to my EAP program. So I think what, what, what Lisey and I are trying to say to all of you on this webinar and those of you watching us live and those who will watch this into perpetuity as we put it out here is if we continue to think that we are doing business as usual, We are not doing business as usual, and we shouldn't want to, and we shouldn't want to. So we, we've, we've got to reevaluate the tools in our toolkit. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and in that toolkit comes tools that— here's an interesting thing. Prior to December 1, 2019, did any employer really effectively utilized telemedicine? That's, that's funny. Almost. Yeah. No one did anybody actively and proactively utilize telemedicine March 1st and prior to March 1st, 2020, even though it was available, even though the technology's been there, the doctors have been there, the facility's been there. We've been, we've had this available to us for the last probably 3 to 4 years.

And we've spoken about it, yes, and tried to encourage it.

And we never did it. So imagine this. The employee comes to you now, and part of what we're trying to say to you is the vision. The employee comes to you now with their medical note, and it's not quite right. Typically, we would say, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah. Now, how about if we kick in the telemedicine piece? Or the employee comes back to work, and you see them struggling in the workplace. You recognize that it's not just the front end piece. It's not just the work itself. It may be all the other challenges they're dealing with. They're in overwhelm. Do we then say we have an obligation to provide them with an additional resource that might be coaching to help them now on a one-on-one basis? Because typically we don't deploy coaching to line employees. We only deploy it to executives. Because they're the only ones that have mental challenges. Nobody else in the organization has a mental challenge, right? You know, who knew, right?

We have to, yeah, so revisit those policies. Yeah, right.

That's, that's, that's really the basis for what we're trying to say. That's the basis for what we're both trying to get across to you now, is this is not about the book. Right. You know, we can all put it all into this cute context of the policy, the procedure, the, the, what we expect. All of that has gone out the door. Yeah. All of it. And, and we are open to litigation now more than ever.

Oh, it's, and it's going to come.

And it's going to come. And we're open now to, um, people asking for different types of accommodation. Yeah, right. Um, if I'm— if I have asthma and I have underlying lung issues and a part of my workplace is to wear a mask, it is mandated for me to wear that mask, how are you going to navigate that as the HR person, right? When my doctor says the mask is going to inhibit my ability to work effectively, are you going to then say, as a part of our leave and disability policy, We're going to create some at-home parts of this so that we are able to utilize this employee to their full potential. You know, employees are not disposable. They're not disposable. We may have sent them home. We may have furloughed them. We may have put them into unemployment. We may have put them on this cocoon status right now, but every organization has expended time and energy. To bring and to train and to develop an employee. Yeah. That person's skill didn't go away because of COVID-19. And if we're going to reopen and reopen effectively and take our businesses back to where they were before and to take our organizations back to where they were before, a lot of what we covered on this webinar today is going to be essential in the process. So I want to ask you, Lisa, to wrap this up. What are you— what is your, your parting thoughts to everybody on this webinar?

So, I guess I would ask leaders to also be honest with themselves about everything that you've stated and then more. So, you know, during this time as we've been navigating the way we have, but then planning for the future next week even, that soon, think about what concerns as a leader you have. I mean, what causes you to wake up early or to stay up late at night? Being honest with yourself, what are those concerns? Write them down or make a note. Don't ignore them. And then do something about reaching out to find help to navigate through this huge sea of multiple avenues that we need to address with a quickness, actually. Time is of the essence. So just thinking about how to create a new and better work environment, we don't have all the answers, and that's why partnerships are just important. What do those partnerships look like? Do you need to bring in a consultant? Probably, because a consultant has no objective, has no— they're not tied to the way things have been done. So they're coming in with a fresh set of eyes, knowledge that has been gained from working with other organizations, and can help with making the changes that are needed. And then to Margaret Spence, adding coaching, leadership coaching doesn't always, in my opinion, mean leaders as in managers and VPs and senior leadership, but leadership meaning self-leadership as well as leadership of others is how I look at leadership. So if we've invested time and money into hiring these good employees who now have a different mindset around everything involving their lives, then why not offer coaching for leadership in the workplace but also in lives as well? Finding out what, what these fears are, what holds people back from creating new visions on how to move them forward. The healthier a person is from the psychological standpoint, the better they're able to provide quality work in the workplace. And we need for all of our— all of our places of employment have been struggling for a while now because of everything going on, and then some were struggling prior to. So we need people to be healthy, to show up in a good place mentally to execute these processes. So I think consultants are available, people who, like myself actually, who stepped away to learn new skills to bring back to places of employment. That was my mission, wanted to just add new skills to what I already knew as a leader because it just makes it better, easier, just more understanding environment to work with individuals. People are worthy of some assistance, especially right now. So I guess I'm going to leave with a quick quote. I just happened to read this. It's an Oprah Winfrey, but I like it. I think it's applicable. And she says, We can't become what we need to by remaining what we are. So that is kind of what we've been talking about the whole time. Let's choose not to remain the same. We don't want to be status quo. We want to think outside the box, shake things up a bit in a positive way, and create new vision, and stand up powerfully, and walk toward it.

Yeah, and for those of you that participated in the chat, Rebecca and Cheryl, thank you for, for, you know, giving us the information, and thank you a lot, Rebecca, for your suggestion on the mic. I appreciate it. It's always good to have good team energy when we're doing these webinars. I want to sort of, before I go back to to, uh, to sharing my screen. Um, I want to basically, um, talk to everybody about what we have going up— going on next, but I want to wrap a little bit around, um, leaving everybody who's participated today with a, with a call to action. The call to action is: how do you reinvent How do you reframe your leave and disability policy starting now? What can we all do to reframe it? What can we do to decide that what we've always done is not going to work? What we need to do now is something completely different. And how are we going to reframe that moving forward? And that's going to be the key here is, What do— how do we connect our employees, their challenges that they're going to face with our leave and disability policy, while simultaneously educating our leadership team, our managers, our supervisors to understand the importance of accommodation and the heightened importance of accommodation in the workforce? Because the last thing we want, which we're going to have, It's a ton of extremely stressed out people coming back in our work environment, and then we being the trigger that accelerates them over the edge. So that for me is my biggest concern. And when we started to put this together, that was our concern. We don't want to create triggering incidents that take people who are in vulnerable situations already and trigger them into something else. And so I want us to be mindful that we must wrap our arms around employees who are coming back to work who are not the same people that walked out the door 8 weeks ago. These are different people coming back to work for us. So we have a couple of upcoming webinars over the next couple weeks, and if you're in our mailing list, you will get, um, emails on this. Um, we have a webinar on compensability and causation. With workers' comp, investigating workers' comp claims, which I think is extremely important. We have to start doing a little bit better job of how we investigate COVID-19 claims that are presented. I'm going to do another webinar with Ed Fuchs with Fisher and Phillips talking about Beyond the Curve: The Post-Pandemic OSHA Compliance, and we're going to give you the framework of a a COVID-19 response plan. What happens if an employee tests positive in your workplace? What do you need to do from an OSHA standpoint? And, and then we're going to have this amazing roundtable event on the psychosocial impact of COVID-19 on your workplace, redefining mental health and work-related mental injuries. So we will do that as well. So all of these are coming up over the next 2 to 3 weeks. I want to thank, um, Alicia Thompson, um, for coming and joining me on this webinar. It's been an amazing journey, and I want to thank you for that. Um, before we go, can you give everybody your website information?

Yes, but thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to come on your platform and to speak to so many people about such an important topic. So yes, um, I also put together a checklist if anyone would like that, just send me an email and I'll send that to you just to give you some points to think about if you may have already begun that process. But if not, hopefully this will add to your topics to think and plan around. My website is www.liciathompson.com, and my email address is licia@liciathompson.com, and my telephone number is 513-445-8363. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you. So, um, again, thank you all for joining us, um, on our webinar series. WorkCompSeminars.com is who's sponsoring this. Our website will be live on Friday, and I am so excited about that. We've done revamped it and it'll be back up and live and ready to go. Again, thank you for joining us. We appreciate all of you that, that stayed the whole time, and we will also be sending you our survey at the end, so everyone will get a survey from us. Again, thank you. If you have any questions post the webinar, please feel free to pose the questions to us and we will be glad to answer them, and we will be surely planning some other webinars with both of us together.