E15: When You're The Brown Girl In The DEI Ring: Experiencing Exclusion In Executive Leadership
In this livecast episode of Inclusion Unscripted, host Margaret Spence opens by framing the show as a safe, unapologetic space to discuss uncomfortable diversity and inclusion topics. She introduces the central metaphor of the 1979 song “Brown Girl in the Ring” to illustrate how Black women (and other people of color) experience exclusion when they are the sole representative in predominantly white executive environments. Throughout the episode she shares personal anecdotes, observations from consulting work, and a vivid story of a Black‑only networking group that failed to welcome newcomers, using these examples to highlight the difference between superficial inclusion and genuine belonging. Margaret argues that organizations often achieve diversity metrics without building the cultural infrastructure—respect, belonging, and equitable support—that allows diverse hires to thrive. She critiques tokenism, the emotional tax placed on minority leaders to educate their peers, and the systemic “backhand” behaviors that keep the brown girl isolated in the middle of the ring. The episode repeatedly asks listeners (HR leaders, CHROs, talent managers) to examine concrete exclusion practices (ignoring, not asking personal questions, failing to roll out the “red carpet”) and to shift from diversity‑only goals to a holistic belonging strategy. The call to action is clear: leaders must consciously design and continuously audit belonging at every level, otherwise diversity efforts become hollow and organizations risk losing talent to competitors who embed belonging into their DNA.
Chapters
You're like a circle that floats around me, keeping me safe and sound. And when I fall, you tied a rope to me. You're blessing me every day. I was down with an illusion, like a sparrow with broken wings. But now I shine with your reflection on me. I'm getting back up on Mafé. That you showed up.
Hey everyone, happy Friday to you. Welcome to Inclusion Unscripted, where we are not just talking about diversity and inclusion, we're living it every day. It's a part of who I am and a part of who we are. Thank you again for joining me on Friday for this livecast. We are here every Friday at 2:00 PM. Live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and, and on YouTube. So we are live on all the platforms. So thank you again for joining me. For those of you who are joining us for the first time, Inclusion Unscripted is built on one premise. This is a safe space to talk about diversity and inclusion. It is where we discuss the uncomfortable topics, the uncomfortableness around diversity and inclusion. It's where we say what doesn't often get said. It's where we challenge the status quo. It's where every week I come to bring you topics that are sometimes trending, sometimes they're real-life experiences that I've had over that week, and sometimes They're just things that I feel within the space of diversity and inclusion, we just don't talk about and we don't say it enough. And there's no way for us to feel that we can say what needs to be said without A, losing our jobs, losing our position, losing where we are. For me, this is a passion project. For me, every week when I show up here live, I'm here to talk to you about things that you are experiencing experiencing in your workplace. I'm here to talk to HR and talent leaders about how your people of color navigate in the spaces that you've created and how you could do better as an HR person, as a talent leader, how you can do better to build spaces that we can occupy and feel included. So that's our journey. So today I am going to take on a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Um, this one hit home and it's a touchy subject, but I'm going to talk about it anyway because I feel sometimes we need to be uncomfortable in our own selves to help other people be comfortable when we are in the room. So The topic today is Brown Girl in the Ring. When Black women show up in white spaces and how we are treated as Black women and how we are not treated as Black women. So that's today's topic, um, especially in the high executive spaces within organizations. How we get treated in those spaces that we show up in. And also, I'm gonna like tunnel a little bit to how we as Black professionals create inclusion for our fellow sisters and brothers. Because sometimes we don't create inclusive spaces for ourselves even. And when we arrive in places where we're not included, or we feel, or we don't feel that we belong there, or we don't feel that the foundation has been created for us to belong, we don't know how to unpack that. But I was talking with a friend today and she went to a networking meeting yesterday for the first time and she was brand new to this networking group. And it wasn't a group, it's a group of Black professionals. And she showed up in that group and nobody welcomed the people who were brand new to that space. Everybody clicked off into their own cliques, into their own spaces, and they never made the new people feel welcomed. And so that's part of— that's at the core of what we're gonna talk about today is how do you help people feel welcomed How do you help them feel that they belong? How do you demonstrate belonging in the spaces? And how do you make a commitment to not only inclusion, but belonging? Because you can include me and make me feel that I don't belong there. And that's sort of what happened, why I'm bringing this up. You can include me. You can feel, yes, you know, Margaret's included, but you can also make me feel that I don't belong there by your actions. And sometimes the actions that people do are so normal and so routine for them that they don't even see their backhand. They can't see their own backhand. They can't see that because you've always done it that way doesn't mean that it is inclusive. Because you've always operated in the same circle and you feel comfortable in that circle doesn't mean that you shouldn't check your own self to see how you create inclusion for others. So that's, that's what we're going to unpack today. We're gonna unpack it in a raw way, and we're gonna unpack it so that all of you can understand, especially if you're trying to build executive leadership development and you're trying to create executive-level development and you want to bring a Black person into an executive role where no one exists that looks like them. It is going to come down to a lot of belonging, not just inclusion, because oftentimes we decide that we want diversity, which is what everybody now wants. You all want diversity, but the reality, none of you really want to become diverse. That's the truth. I keep saying that week after week. None of you want to become diverse. All of you, especially in places where there are no diverse people, all of you are holding on to your spot because we coming in the door threaten you. We threaten you. We threaten the close-knit community that you've created, and you don't really want to let that go to let us in. You know, the question that I ask, and I asked it last week and I'm asking it again. Last week I spoke about the NFL, and this week I'm talking about Brown Girl in the Ring. There was actually a song called Brown Girl in the Ring. You can go look it up. It was a song back in 1979 called Brown Girl in the Ring. And, and I'm Jamaican, so I could come with this. It's Brown Girl in the Ring, fa la la la la. And that was the tune of Brown Girl in the Ring. For all of you who don't know who I am, let me take a moment to introduce myself. My name is Margaret Spence, and I am the host of Inclusion Unscripted, and I am the founder of the Inclusion Learning Lab. And our goal, my goal, is to build inclusion into everything that organizations do. You can build diversity, but if you don't build inclusion, and you don't build belonging, and your programs are not built fundamentally on respect, nothing that I do as a consultant, nothing that your DE&I director does internally will make a difference. Because if you cannot respect us, you don't create inclusion. And if you only respect us partially, you don't create belonging. That is the fact and the truth. So here is the question, the bold question: should we stop trying to get into spaces where we are not in right now? Should we leave those rooms to the people who are already in them? Should we put ourselves through the emotional taxation of educating people on what we want? It's emotional taxing to ask employees to educate an organization. No, go do your own education. It's emotionally taxing to do that. We are not here to educate you. We are here to help you find a path for us. It's up to you to educate yourself. That's the first message from today's podcast. So the question If we are not in spaces, if we are not in those spaces, should we try to get in those spaces? And for Black History Month, that is a question. For Black History Month, it is the question 2022. Should we attempt or continue to attempt to walk in the spaces? And when we get an invitation to the space, Is the carpet fully rolled out for us, or is the carpet still rolled up or only partially rolled out so that we can say we have diversity, but we will never create inclusion because we don't roll out the red carpet to everyone? We continue to roll the red carpet out only to the people who were already in the room. So this is a tough topic. It's a hard topic. It's a tough topic because I felt this week of all week I needed to bring it. I need to bring this to the Inclusion Unscripted podcast and this table. We need to bring it here. You know, one of the challenges that I have always felt as a consultant is I give organizations tests. They don't even know that I'm testing them. I test them because if I am the consultant in the organization and I am probably the highest comfortable level diverse person in the organization, I, I've got the most comfort level in the organization and I can talk to the C-suite and I can talk to the executive leadership team. And I am the most comfortable person that you have within your midst to say what needs to be said. If I feel uncomfortable in that space and if I don't feel that I belong, how is it that a person who is working for the organization, how are they going to navigate in the space if I, as the consultant, don't feel comfortable in the space? Or if I am made to feel by direct action that I don't belong? How do employees navigate that? Because I'm the person coming in to say, here's how you build a diversity inclusion program. Here are the tenets and the spaces. Here's the things that can be done. But then if opportunities are created where I end up feeling that I don't belong in those spaces, and I don't belong in that spot, how will your employees ever feel that they belong in those spaces? How will they ever feel that? How will they feel it? And how do we as diversity practitioners, people who are doing the work of inclusion, the work of diversity, the work of building inclusive spaces and policies, within organizations. How do we navigate when we of ourselves don't feel that we belong in the space that's been created for us? How does that work? See, that's the question. Because if you can't help the consultant feel that they belong, you darn sure can't help the employees feel that they belong. That's a fact. So have you ever gone out in your role and been in a space where you are the only Black person in the space and you watch how people operate around you and just how they pretend that you aren't there? I'm gonna let that one sit for a second. Have you ever been in a space where people pretend that you're not there? How many of you have experienced that? And then you go, wow, okay, I'm gonna have to figure this out on the spot. I'm gonna have to figure this out. Have you ever been to an event, my non-diverse folks that listening, have you ever been to an event and you notice that all of the Black and brown people have formed their own little corner and they've all gotten together in a little square by themselves in a circle and they're talking and they're communing and they're laughing and they're there in that corner by themselves? Have any of you wondered why we will all push and congregate together in meetings, at events, at things sponsored by our companies? Have you ever wondered why? Why do we create this envelope around ourselves when we're in a space where you expect us to mix and mingle and we don't? It's because you haven't made us feel like we belong. See, when people are comfortable being with themselves and their kind, you don't know how to make space for us to come in the room. When you are comfortable being in the circle of the people that you've always been in the circle with your entire tenure, and we as the new kids come into the room, You are already accustomed to the circle that you created. Belonging says to you that, "Oh, we let Margaret in. We need to help her feel that she belongs here." That's what the other half of this says. That's what it says. That's what it says when we want to bring the only Black person or the only brown person into a room where we have no other person. So here is a scenario. If you are an executive leader and you've got lots of executive leaders and you bring one Black person in, one other person that you've promoted into executive leadership, and you bring that one person in the door, but that one person has nobody else that looks like them in that room. When you make them feel uncomfortable, who exactly do they go to for their support? That's a question. Who do they go to for their support when you don't make them feel comfortable in the space? How does that work? How exactly does that work, right? And this is the reason why when organizations promote in one woman, one person of color, we don't last. And if we last, we're lasting on the end of prayer and holy water. Honestly, that is the truth. That is the truth. That is exactly what happens. Because if we are in a space and we are the brown girl in the ring, and the ring is everybody else, and the brown girl in the middle is just sitting there by herself, figuring it out, and feeling excluded and feeling that they don't belong, then no one will exist in the space. Because what you do once, you'll always do.
Truth.
What you do once, you will always do. You'll always do it. There's always going to be a ring, and there's always going to be a lone person standing in the middle. And that lone person is being left there to figure it out on their own. And if you are the only one on the team, the only one in leadership, the only one in the executive suite, and everybody else has a camaraderie around themselves, we will not survive in that space. So when organizations look at diversity and inclusion, We have to challenge the organization to really take a deep dive on how they exclude. How do you exclude others? Give us the exact steps of exclusion. Is it that you don't talk to the person effectively? Is it that you don't talk to the person with respect? Is it that you don't ask the person simple questions like, "How are you?" Is it that you basically pretend that the person is not there even though you've let them in? Is it that? So we have to look closely at belonging. We have to look really deep at belonging and how we create belonging for people of color in your organizations? Why is it so hard for you to be comfortable with our, with us being in the room? Why is it so hard to help people feel comfortable when you invite them in the room? Why is that so hard? Why does that take a lot of dance to make that happen? Why? I don't get it, and I'm still struggling to figure it out and thread this needle with it. If you want diverse people in the room, you have to start asking yourself, when a diverse person enters the room, what will I do to help that person feel that they belong there, that they've earned the right to belong in the room, that they've earned the right to stand in the spot, that they've earned the right to be a part of the team. We have to do better at belonging because we can ask for diversity every single day and people will go home feeling empty because they don't feel that they belong. And that is the challenge. We can't just do the work of diversity anymore. We have to challenge the status quo around belonging. We have to challenge the status quo so that we don't create Brown Girls in the Ring, where you're the only one in the spot and you're feeling that you don't belong. You're feeling that you haven't earned the right to be there. That the message subliminally conscious and unconscious that is being sent says, "Why are you here?" That message gets sent. And, and here's the thing, the conscious and unconsciousness of belonging has to be unpacked. Consciously we create belonging and unconsciously We dismantle belonging. And consciously, we dismantle belonging. Because the invitation to the party means nothing if I can't dance on the floor. The invitation to the party means nothing if I can't sit at the bar. The invitation to the party means nothing if I'm not invited in the room fully. This is what we're talking about today. This is what we're talking about. Belonging as a core strength of diversity. But see, here's the thing for all of you, talent people, HR folks, CHROs in the world. Here's the thing. It is not my job to teach you how to help me belong. It's your job to realize that you're excluding me figure it out consciously. Damn, I'm excluding her. And when you figure it out in, you know, in your own brain that you're excluding me, then you make the course correction and you ask not for grace, but you ask, what can I do better? That's it. That's it right there. We have to do a better job of belonging. We have to do a better job of belonging. Because for me, as a consultant working with organizations, I can help you create diverse pipelines. I can help you build inclusion. I can help you figure out how you're excluding and your unconscious bias and all of that, but I cannot do the day-to-day of helping people feel that they belong in your organization. That is your work. That is your work. You know, we aren't even talking about thriving. We're just talking about belonging. Belonging takes a level of community. Who is on the island fully and who is not? Who is new to the island that I need to roll out the welcome welcome mat further? Who is not quite given the same level of passport and access? What are the subgroups within the room that we got invited to? What are the subgroups that are still going to exist, that are still going to create exclusion in the rooms that we are not in. See, when you could— when you unpack belonging, you unpack exclusion, you unpack what I call the brown girl in the ring. You unpack it fully. You do. Because belonging is at our core. Every single person wants to feel that they belong to something. Every single person wants to feel that belonging is at their core. Every single person wants that. Everyone wants to feel that when they are invited to the party, they can dance. When they're invited to the party, they can dance and have a drink and feel included and be part of the conversation. And feel that their voice in the room is important. Everyone wants this. No one wants the uncomfortableness of not feeling like you belong. This is the truth. So the question, when an organization says that they want diversity at their highest ranks, how do they help employees at that rank feel that they belong. And it can't be that the one person who's mentoring you is the one that helps you feel that you belong. It can't be the person that invites you to the party that helps you feel that you belong. The entire level within the organization that we are moving Black people into needs to do a better job of building belonging. We have to do it. It's essential. We have to do it not just for Black and brown people, but for women. So imagine if you're a woman, you're the only woman, and you walk into the room and none of the guys embrace you. You are immediately consciously conscious of the fact that you are not welcomed, that the high-level party is still gonna go on and you're not gonna be invited to the party. You're not gonna be invited to the party. So if we are doing the work of diversity, how do we do the work of belonging better? How do we do that better? How do we address belonging at its deepest, deepest, darkest level? And how do we address exclusion at its deepest, darkest level? How do we do that? How? We have to unpack this because we cannot ask for diversity, we cannot ask for equity and equality, we cannot ask to have inclusion created without totally requiring belonging. Lesson learned. That is a lesson. We have to ask for all of it all at once. All of it all at once. Because if we skip the belonging, we can never effectively create the diversity. People will come into the organization. They will spend a few minutes there. They will realize pretty quickly that they don't belong there, that the organization has not created a place for them to be, just be. It's not about even finding my voice. It's about feeling comfortable that I've walked into the space and people are there to say, "Yep, we are so comfortable with you here." Not the lip service, but the comfort level. Of that. So we have to foster it. For all of you doing the work of diversity and inclusion, we need to pause and really ask ourselves, at every level of this organization, how do people figure out if they belong? At every level of the organization, How do we help people figure out that they belong? How do we help them? What are the steps that we are going to unpack around belonging? What does that look like? How do we unpack belonging in our organization? Because we could unpack respect, we could unpack inclusion, We can unpack equity and equality, but by golly, the question for all of you is, can I feel that I belong in the highest spaces in your organization? Can I feel truly that I belong in the highest spaces in your organization, or am I going to feel Thank you for the invitation, but I don't feel I belong here. And if you are going out to recruit talent, can they belong on the teams that you already have in existence? Do you need to do teamwork around belonging? Do you need to do that work? Again, It is not our job to educate you on belonging. You have to figure out, wait, we are not a welcoming group for someone that doesn't look like us. We don't welcome people who don't look like us. We don't welcome people who have our financial status. We don't welcome people who are at our level. We don't welcome people who get the invitation. We have to unpack that. We have to unpack that. We cannot build diversity and inclusion on top of an organization that doesn't know how to create belonging. We cannot do it. We must build diversity and inclusion on top of an organization that is welcoming and creates belonging for everyone. If we don't do that, the work of diversity is negated. It is excluded. It is for nothing. It is for nothing. If we cannot create belonging, the work of diversity is for nothing. Because people will form their opinions about the organization based on how the organization makes them feel. How do you make people feel in the organization? Can they feel at your highest spaces that the carpet is fully rolled out? Can they feel that? And here's the thing. If you've always been comfortable with each other, how do you foster inclusion when you're living in your own circle of comfort? How do you make belonging exist when your circle of comfort is the people that look just like you? How do you do that? You can't do it. And that's the reason why the work that we try to do around diversity and inclusion often fails. Because what we want are the numbers. We want the numbers of diversity. We wanna say we have 10% more, we have 5% more, we've done this diversity thing. What we don't wanna say is that when we bring diverse people into our organization at any level, and in any situation, we also create an intense sense of belonging because at our core, we build belonging on top of anything we do for diversity and inclusion. That is the message. That is the message. How do you build inclusion and belonging with diversity? And how do you recognize within yourself when you're being not inclusive, when you're not creating belonging? How do you recognize that? How do you see it if you don't even see your backhand and forehand? How do you see it? And how do we call that behavior out So people can see it. Because if we are doing the DE&I work, if we're doing the work of equity and equality, if we're doing the work of inclusion, we cannot do it silently by allowing organizations to go about their business, go about their normal without ever stopping to think about how they have made people feel uncomfortable and not inclusive. We gotta do that. We cannot do this work without that piece. We can't do the work without that piece. You know, there's a thing on Instagram that says, um, I knew the assignment. I knew the assignment. This week, my assignment was to figure out if people could belong at high places. That was my assignment. That was the assignment I went on today, this week. And I realized very quickly that unless we create a sense of belonging, diversity will never exist. At least it won't exist in the highest places. Diversity will exist at the bottom of the organization, but it won't exist at the top. And I think this is at its core why we struggle so much to get diversity and inclusion pumped through organizations' fiber. We haven't really unpacked belonging at its core. And it's not belonging in the teams, it's belonging everywhere. It is belonging everywhere. So this is a sort of a tough conversation. You know, diversity can be deliberate, but belonging must be fostered. The challenge with organizations who want diversity is that you have to do the hard work. You have to do the hard work to build belonging. Your people cannot help you create belonging. You have to look in the mirror and ask yourself, how do I create belonging at every level? What will that look like? What do I need to do? And what will I do to make sure that everyone feels that they belong all the time? Not a little bit, not kind of belong, not half rolled out carpet, fully rolled out carpet that says you belong here. You are welcomed here. Your voice is needed here. Your voice is accepted here. And within this space, we include you. That is the challenge. That is the takeaway this week. From this week's Inclusion Unscripted Live. That is the takeaway. How inclusive are your exclusive spaces? When we are invited in, will we feel that we belong? And for those of us who are trying to get in the space, Should we stop trying and just accept that that's the space that they want to create and we don't need to butt our head up against the wall to figure it out? Give it up. Because here's what I know. If organizations don't create diversity at every level that people can see, you're gonna run out of people who want to work for you because your competitors will do the hard work. Your competitors will do the hard work. They will go out and do the hard work to create belonging as a core mission, as the DNA fiber of the organization, and they will create inclusion. They will create diversity. They will create equity and equality. And the next generation will walk in their door and they will not walk in yours. Because here's what I think people have forgotten. Profit only exists because of people.
That's it.
So if you don't create diversity, if you don't create inclusion, if you don't create equity and equality, and if you don't build a foundation of belonging, into your DNA and fiber, you will be like all the other things that no longer exist. Blockbuster. You'll be a dinosaur because your talent want to feel that they belong. Your talent, whether they're Black or white, they want to feel that they belong. All of your talent want to feel that they belong. They also want to feel that your leaders want them to belong. And if we don't create that, we will look back 10 years from now and realize that we are extinct, that your organization is extinct, gone, gobbled up by somebody else. So the charge today is to create belonging and to answer the question, when we are at our best, most inclusive self, how do we create belonging for everyone in our organization? How do we do that when we are at our best? That is the question. That's the question that we are going to interweave into this episode. Because the test is not diversity. The test is belonging. So thank you for joining Inclusion Unscripted, where we're not just talking about diversity and inclusion, we're living it every day. Join me again next week, next Friday at 2:00 PM Eastern live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube, where we will discuss another hot topic for Black History Month 2022. If you've missed any of our episodes, please watch them. We are available and syndicated on all of the podcast networks. Please tell a friend about the Inclusion Unscripted live program, and we look forward to continuing the dialogue with all of you about diversity, equity, inclusion, equality, women's leadership, career development. And thank you for joining me this week on Inclusion Unscripted.
You're like a circle that floats around me, keeping me safe and sound. And when I fall, you tied a rope to me. You're blessing me every day. I was down with an illusion, like a sparrow with broken wings. But now I shine with your reflection on me. I'm getting back up on my feet.
That you showed up was Thank you everyone. Have a great weekend. See you next Friday at 2:00 PM Eastern, live on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. Inclusion Unscripted with Margaret Spence. Take care. Bye-bye.
