E36: Advocating For Health Equity: What Should We Know?

Hi everyone, welcome to Inclusion Unscripted, and I'm Margaret Spence, your host. Uh, thank you for joining us today. Um, I have a guest and we are going to have a blast, so hang on one second everyone and let's get this show started today. Hold on, here we go.

You're like a circle that floats around me, keeping me safe and sound. And when I fall, you tie a rope to me. You're blessing me every day. I was cast down with an illusion, like a sparrow with broken wings, but now I shine with your reflection on me. I'm getting back up on my feet, that you show.

So Inclusion Unscripted, where we're not just talking about diversity and inclusion, we're living it. We are live every Friday at 2:00 PM on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. And today I have the absolute honor of welcoming a guest to our show. Um, meet Dr. Kari Winchell. She's the medical director of community engagement and health equity and co-lead for the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and medical director of urgent care clinics, Carbon Health, and St. Mary's Regional Medical Center in Reno, Nevada. Deeply involved in her community, Dr. Kari Winchell is also the founder of Beyond Clinical Walls, the medical director of the Washoe— and I'm probably going to say that wrong— Washoe County Sexual Assault Response Team and volunteer as an assistant medical director with the Child Protective Services. During COVID-19, Dr. Kari Winchell joined the Reno Mayor's Task Force and Governor's Medical Advisory Team. But here's something else that I want all of you to tune into. She has an amazing TED Talk, um, that she just recently did, and we're going to add that to the show notes um, so that you can listen to that. But I think it's important that we read her full bio because I think as Black women, we have to honor the spaces that we sit in, and we have to honor who we are in the journey we've had to get to where we are. So I want to just keep reading her bio for a second. She's received many awards, including the 2022 Healthcare Heroes Award from the Nevada Business Magazine, the Community Service Award from the Washoe County Medical Society, the 2021 Young Physicians Award from the same county medical society, the 2020 PBSO Reno Spotlight Extraordinary Neighbor Award, the Sierra Nevada Top 20 Most Powerful Women award, and 2019 she was named one of the 75 Black healthcare leaders to know by Becker Hospital Review. This is who we've brought to today, and our discussion is going to be around health equity, it's going to be around our role as caregivers, it's going to be our role to empower ourselves in the healthcare process. So join me in welcoming Dr. Curry Winchell. Thank you for being here with me.

Thank you, Margaret, for having me. I am filled with gratitude to be on your platform and share health information. So thank you for having me.

Yes. And I, you know what, I, as I said, I can't get over your TED Talk. And I have to say, um, LinkedIn is an amazing platform and we met on LinkedIn and, um, Dr. Curry-Wentzel reached out to me and I said yes. And then And then we went through our whole trying to get her on here. But I have to tell you, I am so proud of just being able to see you as a Black woman physician and seeing your impact that you're having and the impact that you want to make. To tell you a little bit about my journey, I, um, have been in the HR risk management world for a number of years. And I started Inclusion Unscripted because I wanted to have the discussions that we're not having. Yes, everybody could talk about diversity and inclusion, but no one really wants to go against the grain of what we see every day. And that is the critical piece, the grain of what we see, and disrupting what people think. So tell me about your journey. How did you end up being and becoming a physician? Tell me about that first.

Well, you know, it is multifaceted. I have to say it started with the fact that I had a phenomenal father, a 99-year-old man who was a World War II, Korean, and Vietnam War veteran that invested in me knowing the importance of giving back in any way that I can. And that led me into the journey of becoming a physician, and it has filled my cup every single day. And through that, I knew as a, as a physician, I wanted to help people, but I wanted to help people in a nontraditional way. And so I have had the privilege of working as a physician, seeing patients in the clinic, working as a director, but also highlighting and advocating for health inequities and disparities and really bringing a light towards, you know, reducing them, but also advocating for marginalized communities, underserved and people of color. And so I have this opportunity to have a blended practice. And also, as you talk about, go against the grain and highlight why we have those inequities and provide solutions. So my journey has allowed me to have this really non-traditional form of delivery of healthcare, which I believe in, and that has turned into Beyond Clinical Walls, which also stands for Bio Curry Wenchel. And I can put forward free health information, and it's just been fantastic and just filled with gratitude to give back and help.

Yeah. You know, I went on to your YouTube channel and I saw your YouTube videos, different things on diabetes, on, you know, back injury. I read your article around that. And just to give you a little background, I started my career in healthcare as a— I'm on the insurance side of the house, and I've worked as an adjuster. I've worked in the workplace injury space, um, and I've consulted to a lot of health systems across the country. One of the things that got me when I was sitting in the desk as an adjuster is the fact that we would get— we would send an injured employee to a doctor and we would get back a report, and the report would be enhanced based on the person's race, based on the person's gender, based on different things that occurred in that doctor's office. And you would then get the phone call from that injured worker, and they would say, but Margaret, this is not what happened. That's not what I told him, right? But then I started experiencing this, as we talked just before we started. Um, my dad is 93, um, he's a two-time cancer survivor. I was caregiver up until last year to my 96-year-old aunt, my mother's oldest sister. And I remember taking her to the emergency room. She had— when, when I first— I call it inherited her because that's what it was. Her husband passed away and I was the only relative, um, direct relative for her. And my— I'm an only child, and my she had no children, so I sort of inherited all of the aunts and uncles that don't have any children. And when I got her, I took her to the doctor. First off, for 3 and a half weeks, I didn't know she was diabetic because the pharmacy list didn't have the diabetic medication on there. So I go to the pharmacy one day and I said, it seems like something's missing because she's acting a little weird. And she says, oh, have you been giving her the insulin? What do you mean, have I been giving her?

I like—

I mean, this is— you can't make this stuff up. I mean, so I, I said, no, I haven't. And she gave me a sample, told me what to do, showed me how to put it in, you know, how to inject her. I'd never done that before. And she says, oh, you know, she's on a ton of medication. And for years I've wondered why. She was on 32 different medications.

Oh, wow.

When I got her. And it took about 2 years. I had to hire an advocacy nurse to help me decipher what was what, because it was— they gave her this, she had a symptom, they gave her something else, they gave her this, she had another symptom. So how do we as people of color trust the healthcare system from an equity lens, given all of what we go through to access care?

So, you know, trust is such a powerful word, and it's earned, and it needs to be earned. And how we do that is by finding providers that, number one, understand or at least acknowledge that historical mistrust. And so I share with people of color, you should find a health champion, someone that acknowledges you, listens to you, hears you, and sees you, because your health is the most precious possession that you have. And so finding someone that you know is really going to put forward your concerns, not dismiss your, your, your questions. And even when you are asking, hey, I would love to know more why you're putting me on this medication, or why are you ordering this test? If you feel that when you share those questions, you feel enveloped with a level of respect and mutual information that is able to pass back and forth, that is what you need. And you need to be able to ask questions throughout. And so I, I share with people of color, find that health champion, find that health advocate. And if you're not there right now, look for somebody else because you deserve to have the best care possible and high-quality care. Right.

I agree. And I think that, um, one of the things that you said in the, um, in your, your TED Talk that struck with me is how do we evangelize quality healthcare? How do we make that the normal? Because I could tell you, I, I, I hearken back to when my dad was diagnosed with cancer. So, um, and at 93, he's smart as a whip. He, you know, has a lot of stuff going on. I often worry about him being alone and leaving him by himself and so on, you know, but he, um, he can get through whatever he needs to. But I remember it was almost 20-something years ago, and he went to the doctor. He, um, had a— he was having prostate issues and they evaluated him for the prostate. And one of the doctors in the process said, hey, I want to do an abdominal, an abdominal CT scan before you start radiation. And he— we were at his office and he looked through everything and he said, well, why haven't you had an abdominal CT scan? We can't start doing the prostate unless you've had an abdominal CT scan. It may have been the oncologist, radiology oncologist. And so he sent him for that. And we went and I dropped him off. He went in, no issues. He came out and he says, you know, the tech told me that I had a mass in my stomach. And I said, really? And he— I went back in and the tech says, well, we can't talk to you, right? And so we waited for the doctor to give us this information and it never came. And it stuck in my dad's head, and he kept saying to me, we need to get the results of that CAT scan. Of course, now we're in the road of, you know, he's getting beating and he's getting radiation for his prostate, and we're on that track. But there was this thing that was still inside of him that no one addressed. And I remember taking him one day, driving him to the doctor's office, taking him inside, him signing for the authorization, getting the report, and looking at the report going Holy moly, he's got a mass in his colon, right? And so that is the experience that we have as a reference point as people of color. It's either we're not diagnosed, we're underdiagnosed, we're misdiagnosed, or we're not heard or listened to in the process of accessing medical treatment. So how do we What's the best practice that you would say? I'm advocating for myself. What should I be demanding? And when should I make the decision to say, this is not right, I need to question it?

So I think from the start, asking questions throughout any health journey or concern that you have is so important because that is going to be your go-to when you champion, whether it's your health or somebody else's health. And when I go back to your original question, when we talk about really evangelizing the importance of high-quality care in communities, I think we have to take a step back and look at when there are health fairs, when there are different, um, different opportunities to help underserved marginalized communities or people of color. We often see these pop up like health fair clinics and so forth. We're here for you. And we always think about the term meet people where they are. Well, one thing that I think we need to do just systemically is ask people where they are before you even go into those communities. Ask and say, what is it that you need? Or I, I notice that, you know, you have a concern about a certain disease and so forth. Can you tell me more why you have that? Because often we just go in, we put these services available, but we don't ask why someone may not feel comfortable going into the doctor. Where is that mistrust? Where are their concerns, their fears? And so I think if we could just take the time to invest in that piece, that is a huge gift and the ability to produce change. And another piece is really looking at providers having more education and becoming more cultural and linguistically competent because that also will help bridge that gap so people can communicate and share and feel comfortable. So all of those things are important, and as well as recognizing that there are race-based algorithms. And so to your point, Margaret, when you talk about how we are dying at a disproportionately higher rate, people of color, from specific diseases, well, when you look at algorithms that put you at a disadvantage from the get-go, it's hard to even close that gap if I am diagnosed just based on the color of my skin. And we know Race is a social construct. It has no biological or genetic elements. And so to diagnose, assess, treat based on the color of someone's skin, we are not helping people. And I always share, as a physician, I took an oath to do no harm. And that is why I am driven and passionate about removing these race-based algorithms, finding ways to improve health literacy, and improving the healthcare system overall.

It's true. I think I'll give you an example that was glaring for me. Prior to COVID, I flew a lot. I did about 30 weeks, 40 weeks on the road. And I would speak at conferences. I would fly from place to place to see my clients, and I— my team and I would be all over the country. And halfway through the year, I've always been— I've worn glasses since I was 9 years old, and I started having these clicking sounds in my eyes. Like, I'd rub it and it would make a clicking sound. So I thought, oh, I need new glasses, let me just go get some new glasses. So I went in, the pressure was elevated in my eyes, and the doctor said, it looks like you have hypertension. And I thought, wow, okay, this is weird. I didn't know you could have ocular hypertension. I already had hypertension, but here's ocular hypertension. Um, so I went to an eye doctor, walked in, filled out the form. They asked, you know, did your family history of glaucoma, family history of cataracts. My mother had glaucoma before she passed away years ago, and I knew that, and I knew she had had cataract surgery, and I knew my dad had cataract surgery. So I filled all that out and I walked in the door and the physician said to me, um, yeah, you're more likely to have glaucoma than others. What does that mean? Um, and he literally said to me, um, yeah, you're Black, you're Caribbean descent, and you're, you're Black Caribbean, and you're more likely to have glaucoma than other people. So here's the drops, go put them in. Okay, um, where do we start here? And I said, what does that mean? I don't understand. I don't understand. What— is there something that I need to fix? Is there a process? Is there— what is it that I'm supposed to be doing? I'm a curious person, so I started reading, and I went on to the National Institute of Health, and I Googled and read and realized that drops weren't the first things that should have happened for me. I should have had a procedure called SLT. And so I advocated, couldn't get it. He wouldn't authorize it. He wouldn't do it. And the health insurance wouldn't send me to a different doctor. And because you're locked into this, and, and so you end up in this cycle as a person of color, not being heard, not being seen. So when you decided to go on this journey, What doors do you still need to knock on or knock down to get physicians to hear you? Because as I listened to your TED Talk and I heard you talk about the webinar that you were on when they were talking about one medication for a person of color and give everybody else a different medication, how do you even overcome that when this is so baked in the cake. It's in the grain, it's in the ground, it's in the sand. I read an article, I read a couple articles in fact on our website. We put one up several weeks ago about the fact that a lot of research studies don't include people of color, but the end result is applied to people of color. How do we even dismantle this?

And when I think of the example that I gave in the TED Talk, and that is a real life example that actually happened to me twice. And it's happened in other areas as well, but on a macular schedule or a larger scale, that webinar. And I remember unmuting myself and sharing studies that backed up why we shouldn't use race-based healthcare. And so to your question, how do we move that needle and how do we have providers hear and listen? To this information. And it's been an upward challenge where I continue to share the information, I continue to share the data, but there is this thought of, it's what I've always done and I'm going to continue to do it. So what I've tried to do is, as providers, we are all about helping our patients and patient health outcomes. And I share, when you practice race-based medicine, your health outcome for your patient will be affected by that. And so, for example, when we talk about the hypertension medicine that I mentioned in my TED Talk, at this time it is recommended that if you have a Black patient to give a specific medication. Well, let's kind of unwrap that. Number one, we mentioned race is a social construct and there's no difference anatomically from someone who is Black versus white. Now, when we talk about genetics and ethnicity, that's a different story. But to combine race and giving a medication makes no sense, and it's hurtful and harmful to patients in the long run. And so I continue to have these conversations. I continue to push that needle, and it is uncomfortable. I know when I spoke up and I said something on those webinars, I— it was silence. No one said anything, and that has continued to happen, but I'm not going to stop. And there have been challenges where I've received messages, you know, well, this is just how I feel we should do this, or I'm just going to keep doing it this way. And so I meet that with a level of curiosity and I ask why. And so I feel, and this is personal to me, My passion and my drive and my hope of making change is to lean into a level of curiosity and continue to have those conversations, continue to discuss and share and have my data that supports it. Because although we know it's wrong, there are those who want to continue to, you know, move in that same fashion. And I think for allies, I want to kind of put this out there. It's something for you to think about. What other race do we say you are a specific race and we are going to give you a specific medication? We don't do that, but we are doing that for Black patients. And then one more little step further, just because I'm Black doesn't mean I am African American. It doesn't mean— and so when you categorize those groups and then you provide treatment, it's not right. And we have to think about how it's impacting people every single day.

Yeah, and that's a great point. So one of the lens of our audience is employers, and I've often felt that Employers don't do enough to connect health equity because they're often providing the health insurance that their employees are tapping into. Many organizations have wellness programs. They're cookie cutter. They're not necessarily designed for people of color or even women. Um, so how do you have a health equity discussion with an employer that sits in the vein of diversity, equity, and inclusion. What would you say to employers about how they should be advocating for their employees as they are the provider of the health insurance benefits that they're get— that they're handing out?

I would say first take inventory in all of the insurance companies that you are looking at and ask them, what level of diversity do you have in your service lines? Whether it's therapy, psychiatry, whether it's primary care, what level— when I say diversity, what level of representation do you have within that spectrum of providers? Because that's a huge piece. And we're not just talking about race, we're talking about intersectionalities. What parts do you have that can speak to my organization? And I think starting from there is helpful, as well as taking, um, a survey or questionnaire from your employees and, and asking them what type of challenges have they faced in the past with getting healthcare. And that is an opportunity to really find the best choice for your organization because you're taking two parts. You're taking in the information that your employees have shared with you of their challenges, then looking at the payers and making sure they can meet those requests as far as diversity. And then you have a roadmap to start to find what could be the best fit.

Yeah, that's a great view because I don't know that when, when employers are putting out, um, health processes, right? Diversity and inclusion leaders are never at that table.

Correct.

Diversity inclusion doesn't make it to the benefits discussion or to the health, healthcare access. Diversity inclusion is left to the talent process. How do we hire people? How do we train them? How do we develop them? But the reality is whole people show up to work. Yes. Entirely whole people. And so if we are asking whole people to show up to work, then we have to consider the entire employee experience. One of the things that we are seeing at a lot of our client companies in the work that we're doing is wellness and mental health and the struggles that employees are going through, whether they're working hybrid or they're working in office, the absolute mental health struggle that everyone is going through.. It just seems to be heightened right now. How do you address that, especially in the work that you're doing within your beyond clinical walls? How do you address that piece as well?

Well, I want to go back to one part because I think something that you mentioned, Margaret, was so powerful. Having a DEIB person at the table is huge as that level of representation. I am so fortunate that I get to work with someone who is at that table, an amazing DEIB global head who helps. And so we do need more of that at the table. When it comes to mental health, there is a stigma that is associated with marginalized communities, people of color, as we know. And so how I approach it is trying to provide information that is nonjudgmental, that is digestible and available. And I think that is a way to meet people in a way that is different. I also lift the curtain and I share my struggles with things that are going on in my life. And recently I can share with you one level of being able to really connect from a mental health standpoint is I recently lost my father. And as physicians, we are trained to, you know, to deal with death and we see it often. But experiencing loss and grief in a way that I have never experienced was really challenging. And when I look at the healthcare space and I look at providers and the access points to mental health, there are so many different barriers. And so I have a barrier just being a woman, a person of color, and then also as a provider, because there's this concern if you seek out help or therapy or anything of that sort, Will that compromise my occupation? And that's something that people don't look at, um, and realize, um, as providers we help people, we're here for you, but we also need to make sure that there is access for those who are giving that care. And so I am lifting that curtain, sharing my journey of grief and loss and how that has been a part of my mental health and how I'm trying to navigate that, and hopes of helping people and putting resources with that. And so I've done videos, as you know, through Beyond Clinical Walls. I'm writing about it in hopes that people know that they're not alone.

Yeah.

And thank you for sharing that. Um, can I ask what was your dad's name?

Yes, Bill Curry. Also went by William Curry. An amazing man.

Yes, and we honor him, we honor him for, for the journey, um, because without him you would not be. And so we have to honor him as, as we go through this journey, you know.

I—

and thank you for sharing and, and sharing your journey and vulnerability and, and your spirit about all of this with us. Um, I want— there was something that struck me, two things, because I work with women leaders, and I was emotionally shaken in your TED Talk when you talked about being untitled.

Yes.

And I don't know that we— and even as a DE&I practitioner, I don't even know that I say it enough. I got a lot of backlash months ago when people asked for my pronouns, and they wanted my pronouns. And I said, I'm not giving you a pronoun. My pronoun is Margaret. And I said, I want people to accept that my pronoun is Margaret. It's not he/she, it's not her, it's none of that. It's Margaret. And I was pretty adamant about that. And members of the LGBTQ community tried to educate me, and I said, but you're not, you're not getting it from my lens. As a Black woman, I'm often called out of my name all the time, so I'm not going to allow you to her or she me, right?

That's powerful.

It may be great for people to have a pronoun and use that pronoun, and I have no problems with people doing that, but for me personally, Margaret Spence, I will not allow you to do that. You will call me by my name. Don't say she did or her did or don't say any of that. Say Margaret did. Acknowledge me because when you don't acknowledge me, you get to pretend that I'm not human. So I listened to your talking about being in the room, not acknowledged as a female physician, not called Dr. Kari Wenzel. Um, but I also listened to your spirit talking about Black girls and the spirit of Dr. Elizabeth Crumpler, the first Black female physician in 1864, and the fact that there's 877,000 physicians right now and there's 2% Black women representation And I heard you say it's going to take 6% of the general population. The challenge that I see is how do we reach girls early enough so that they are empowered to think that they can walk this road?

It starts from, you know, elementary, preschool, and allowing that imagery to be with them. Because when you see it— and I know we've heard it, you can be it— but it's so true. Because when you see someone And this happens to me often when I do have a person of color, and especially if it's a child and even if it's an adult and they see me and I walk in and I say, I'm Dr. Kari Winchell, you can see this amazing connection of— and they'll ask me, you're the doctor? And I'm like, yes, I am. And the sparkle in their eye and my eye that happens because there's this imagery, there's this connection. Um, that happens. And so we have to start from a young— from preschool and just continuing to show that it is possible, but also providing the resources to help you get through it. And so when you look at people of color, women, we often don't have the same network that others have. And so there are so many different challenges when you are applying for medical school. How do you get those clinical hours so you can add it to your application. And often that's networking. But if you don't have that, um, the resources or the connections, you're not able to complete your application. So we need to have more resources that help guide you. And that's why I love, you know, Black Girl White Coat. I mentioned them in my talk because they are helping, you know, women of all professions that want to go into healthcare and giving them that help, that helping hand that we often are not able to get or know how to even find. And I also want to talk about, Margaret, that you mentioned the untitled. Um, that is something that is happening to me and it continues. And it was important to me to mention it because when I said untitled, I was speaking to all people, all women, because there is this thought, and as you mentioned, that you can make me disappear or you can just not place my name a part of it. And it's something as a physician I worked for. And if you ask me, I will share with you, I want to be called Dr. Bayo Kuri-Wenchel. And through that, I can share with you, I've been met with resistance. It's almost as if because I said that, and you know where I'm going often with intersectionalities, Angry Black Woman, and so forth. Oh, I, I, I'm boasting, or I'm being prideful. No, I earned this title and it's a part of me and I shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. It's something that is a part of me and I'm proud. And so it's something that we have to think about as we are being inclusive with language. We should also be thinking about asking people how they would like to be called and honoring it in any way that they answer, because it shouldn't be just one way to be inclusive.

Yeah, and I agree with you, and that is so powerful what you just said. It is asking me and then honoring me when I give you the answer. It's not I give you the answer and then you debate me because I want give a different answer than the one you expect to hear. As we wrap up our time together, I want to know what's your big vision for what you're doing? What would you like to say to us as people of color, as employers that listen to this, as organizations that may be listening to this? Big vision, and then tell me what you want us to know.

My big vision is to really reduce health inequities and disparities and remove race-based medicine in all healthcare systems. And when I say that, yes, you know, getting rid of those algorithms, helping providers understand how race does impact their health outcomes. Algorithms, and then also thinking about as we start to— and we're making some progress, but more needs to be done— removing those algorithms, still being mindful of how it will— how it impacts those who are already labeled with those incorrect classifications based on their race. So my big vision is to share this message of race-based medicine and reducing health inequities on a bigger scale and putting it forward through different mediums. And I see it through health literacy and really highlighting that as a Black female physician, I'm here to help and inform and give a new way of delivering healthcare. So I hope that you hear me and see me and take note that I'm going to keep moving. And I— if we're organizations, I really want you to think about continuing to ask why and thinking about doing things in a new way and go on an uncomfortable journey, because I think that is the first start. When you have those uncomfortable conversations, when you really delve into the things that aren't working well, and then reaching out to the DEIB, reaching out to health equity professionals, That is how you're really going to be able to make change. But when you ask them, listen to them and really be invested in putting forward that information.

So, Dr. Kari Winchell, how do we stay in touch with you? I popped your website up on the screen. Um, I know you're on LinkedIn. Um, I know your website, but tell us how we stay in with you. How do we continue to listen and uplift your message as we go forward?

Please reach out to me at— on all forms of social media. LinkedIn, of course, is my jam. I love LinkedIn, but I'm also on TikTok and Instagram and Twitter. Um, but I, I also have a YouTube series called Beyond Clinical Walls, and it's free information, health information on different topics. And I also have a website as well at drbcw.com. So please reach out to me. I love questions. If there's a topic you want me to address, I will do it. So please reach out and I'm just really invested in helping people. And thank you, Margaret, for this opportunity because health equity is a part of social justice and I appreciate I appreciate you allowing me to share this information. So thank you.

Yeah, and I'm so honored you're here, and I would like to invite you back. I think that this discussion on health equity needs to be continuous. I think at the beginning of the year we'll look at some other dates and just really talk about— because we don't do enough discussions about our own mental health, our own healthcare, you know. And I freely share all the time, you know, I'll say I've got this, that, or the other, but it's the solution that we need. It's how do we engage? And maybe next time we'll do a webinar and we'll invite folks so they can ask questions and they can be engaged and we can put that out and market it ahead of time. So I'd love to have you back, Dr. Kari Mitchell. You're not getting rid of Margaret so quick.

Oh, I'm finally in! You can tell my face, I'm all in. Thank you, thank you. Um, I, I would love that. Let's keep the conversation going, um, because once you know, you can do— you can help yourself and your family. So let's, let's keep it going.

Absolutely, we will, we will. And thank you so much for joining me today, and I so appreciate you. Um, for all of you that have joined in, we have a question in our comments. Um, Someone said, great show, thank you for sharing your journey. So we do have some listeners who have listened and on LinkedIn Live, and the show will stay on LinkedIn and we'll share it again. And we appreciate you for being here. Again, thank you all for joining us on Inclusion Unscripted. We are here every Friday at 2:00 PM Eastern for a phenomenal show on diversity, equity, and inclusion, thinking outside of the box. Because again, as I said, we are not just building diversity and inclusion, we're living it. Our experience says every day as people of color shape the direction that we should all be taking as it relates to equity, equality, and inclusion. Thank you again for joining us.

Keeping me safe and sound. And when I fall, you tied a rope to me. You're blessing me every day. I was down with an illusion, like a sparrow with broken wings, but now I shine with your reflection on me. I'm getting back up Thank you, everyone.

Take care.

Thank you.