#35 - Victim Mindset, Impostor Syndrome, And Subconscious Beliefs - Kim Kokoska, Executive Coach

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Pearls on Gloves Off. I'm your host, Mary o'.

Carroll.

Today we have on a very special guest who I've learned an incredible amount from and I attribute a ton of my personal professional growth in recent years too. Kim Kokoska is our executive coach at Ironclad. With a deep passion for personal growth and professional development, she has had the privilege of helping individuals unlock their potential and find success in their own unique ways. Throughout her career, Kim has seen clients overcome challenges, find resilience, and achieve remarkable transformations. When it comes to guiding professionals in leadership development, she's committed to making a positive, enduring impact on her clients lives. Now, I invited Kim on the show because I think legal operations and general counsel roles come with some pretty unique challenges, especially when you're out there being an active change agent. Kim shares a very powerful framework on the drama or empowerment triangles and how to move from what is a victim mindset to an observer mindset. If you have no idea what that means, don't worry. She does explain it all very well. And I've always found this to be a really useful lens to be conscious of as you approach challenges professionally, but just as much personally as well. We will talk about the five subconscious beliefs about ourselves that stem from early on in our lives, but that can pop up later and affect the way we respond, act and feel to various situations. We also get into the idea of imposter syndrome and where that is coming from and how it can show up for different people and again, how to make sure we're conscious of how we're feeling and what we can do about it. I have learned a ton from Kim, so I really do hope you enjoy this special episode on personal and professional growth. Hi, Kim.

Good morning. Good morning.

All right, I was just thinking, when I first started at Ironclad, our CEO Jason said to me, let's get you set up with Kim. All of our execs have access to our executive coach. And I was like, really?

Everyone?

I have to admit, I was a little suspicious. I'd never worked with a coach before, right. And I remember there was this time when I was at Google and, you know, moving up the ranks, and my manager told me that I had been selected to take part in this leadership development program and I'd been given an executive coach. And in retrospect, like, I can see that was a compliment, it was a gift. But at the time, I remember thinking, oh, my God, do I need help? What areas am I deficient in? What is this commentary about their confidence in me as a leader. So I actually remember taking offense, and I never did take them up on the executive coach. And so I guess I don't know if you hear this all the time. How do you describe what an exec coach is? Why is it wonderful for everyone? I am a big believer now, but it, you know, my first reaction was not.

You're definitely not the only one. And I think, you know, depending on the organization, the intention of the executive coach is different. Sometimes there are. It's very specifically geared towards targeting a very specific area of development. What made the program and what made and makes the program special at Ironclad is that just wasn't Jason's intention. So coming in, it was early on, and Jason has shared this. Jason and I were working together privately, and his company was just getting started. And I think There were about 20 employees and maybe four or five execs. And Jason just was realizing, wow, I would love for my executive team to have some kind of full person support. Something that gives them a place outside of. It could lead to a potential therapeutic referral. But outside of their manager, outside of. At that point, there was no hr, but something that. Exactly. That just was a support for the whole person in all ways, in the best way we can, that allows the most full whole person to show up at work. And so that really was the intention and still continues to be the intention. It's purely voluntary, 100% confidential. There's no information that's coming to me that says we think these would be good areas for this person to be focusing on. And there's no information going out the other side. Unless, of course, it's like you, Mary, where someone's excited about the work that we're doing and they want to share it with a team member or sometimes a partner or a friend. And in that case, we fully support the ripple effect of what we get to do inside the room.

Yeah, I'm such a believer now. You know, I tell you all the time, you've changed my life. You've changed my perspective on so many things. It has been such a gift, and I wanted to have you on. I think we've talked about this briefly, so I'll just recap for everyone who's listening. A lot of the listeners that are here have the same background that I came from, which is this legal ops profession. It's fairly new to the industry. It's not always well understood by lawyers. And as a side Note, we had Dr. Larry Richards on episode four. He's an expert on the Psychology of lawyers. So we kind of delved into like the what's the deal with lawyers and why is it so hard to work with them? But in short, kind of the legal ops professions, we show up in a legal department and we're supposed to be a peer to all the lawyers at the leadership team level, but we're the ones who are not practicing law. And so the lawyers are used to seeing non lawyers as support roles and not strategic leaders. And in addition, the role is a change agent. We're supposed to go in and figure out, look across the department, make changes, modernize, digitally transform, and kind of bring the department into the future. So there's a lot of this like, moved my cheese type of reaction when we show up and when the roles exist. So it's lonely, it's difficult to get the respect you deserve, you know, which is partially why in my role, like the community is so strong. We rely on each other, we really need each other for support. But there's also so many folks in these roles that are just having a hard time because it's lonely, it's frustrating. And I wanted to start with our conversation really about this victim mindset. And I was hoping we could dive into that. And you know, I know it sounds like victim mindset. It's like, oh, I want a pity party. But that's really not what it's about. The highest level. Kim, how would you describe, you know, what that is and how it can be very helpful.

Yeah. Yep. Some may or may not have heard the. The original terminology that we used that described this victim triangle was the drama triangle. And that came out of some early work in the late 60s. A guy by the name of Stephen Carpman was a psychologist. His father was actually a Freudian psychotherapist. And he kind of ventured off of that work into this area we call transactional analysis. And really what transactional analysis is trying to understand how humans relate to each other. And there are some very clear patterns that we notice how people have related to each other in a relatively unhealthy way. It's everyone, people continuing to operate in these relationships to each other from generation to generation. So it sort of gets passed on. And if we're going to describe the victim triangle, it's pretty simple. And there's three parts. There's the victim who's in a one down position in relationship to the other, who, whatever it is that they're having some interaction with. There's the persecutor and there's the rescuer. And those are One up positions. And each person tends to enter into some interaction through one up, one of those places, but they'll move between those places within the interaction. And so, for example, in the change agent, whoever may be the change agent in an organization whose their intention is to bring something new for the good of the organization, the immediate response, actually we call this reaction often is immediate victimization. What are they doing? Why are they doing this to me? What did I do wrong? What's the matter here? And they're putting the change agent in the role of the persecutor. This person, this attorney, this boss, this partner is doing this thing to me. And as that person gets more and more upset about what may be happening, oftentimes either the persecutor or somebody else within the organization will come and try and rescue them, let them know that they're going to fix it for them, that this is their job now to take care of them. And so, and people move around within these particular roles. And what we've been talking about and what you and I have spent a lot of time with is the evolution or the alternative to this victim triangle, this drama triangle is what we call the empowerment triangle.

Yeah.

And the empowerment triangle is a place where we kind of flip. We flip that victim triangle up on top of its head and we have an inverted triangle. And in that inverted triangle we have the observer or the creator on the top, we have the asserter or the challenger and we have the nurturer or the coach. And. And in that triangle, we're thinking much differently. Our mindset in all the positions is what may be in this scenario for me, what may be the opportunity here, how may I be empowered in all of this scenario? So in that same situation, the change agent is really coming in from the point of view of I really am here to contribute something to the organization. I am here for the good of the whole. The person who's receiving the change can look at it from the point of view of, wow, what made this newness be calling me towards. And the rescuer or the person in the path that was trying to fix those feelings encourages, how may I support you in understanding and more deeply being able to move into what you are being called to do in this new scenario.

Yeah, and so much of all this is about mindset, right? It's like, how are you approaching the relationships and the challenges? And you know, I related to this so much because you're often, let's go to the victim triangle. You're often in a situation where you're Trying to make change. As a legal ops person, let's say you're the change agent. Everyone is against you. You're trying to roll a ball, you know, up a hill, and you're looking to your leadership team for support, and they're busy and not doing, you know, that much to support you. And I remember being in those roles, just being frustrated, blaming others, blaming the situation, and just looking around going, I not set up to succeed. No one here is helping me. Everyone's against me. I'm not getting the leadership team to put their foot down and no one really cares. This sort of sucks. I should just quit feeling. And. And I say that because I hear it all the time now with. With peers who are saying I'm in this role. And I thought I was empowered, but I'm really not. And my GC doesn't give me as much support. Everyone here is against me. I should just quit. I should just quit. And I think what you've taught me is, you know, as I try to coach people myself now, is what can you do in that situation? Have you to kind of move into that empowerment mindset? I try to ask myself all the time now, have I done, before I start to blame the situation and blame everyone around me, like, have. Is there anything I can actually do to change the situation? Have I done everything that I can? And if I were in someone else's shoes, you know, what would I tell someone who's hearing what I'm saying about my problem and my situation? And, you know, what would they tell me? Have you tried this? Have you tried that? And would my answer actually be yes or no? I just continue to blame everybody?

Yeah, I think that what you hit on there, Mary, is really foundational to that shift from the victim mindset, as we'll speak about it here, to that observer mindset, to that personal responsibility. So really, the fundamental difference is have I really looked at my own part in whatever this dynamic is? Have I taken full responsibility for what may be happening here? And am I continuing to put myself in that victim place, blaming the system, the other people, the environment, the economy, all of these things?

And.

And not to say that those factors don't exist, because they absolutely do.

Right.

It's. How are we now going to respond to whatever those external environmental factors are versus just reacting to and keeping ourselves stuck in that disempowered position in relationship to our circumstance?

Yeah. And so I guess is that the main advice is to sort of think about what you can do to change the situation and to empower yourself or to turn yourself into more of an observer than a victim. Is that kind of the advice?

I would say that's the primary intention. What we haven't talked about here and what I think makes this model particularly valuable, but you won't see this, what I'm about to share as often in the literature as your. If you do decide to spend some more time in victim and observer mindset, in the drama or empowerment triangle. And that is what fundamentally pulls us into the victim mindset. And this is the part that is the most powerful, I think, the most interesting and the least talked about, especially in corporate environments, because it forces us into a deep introspective place and a vulnerable place inside of ourselves. And what pulls us into this victim mindset is these subconscious beliefs that we have started to create about ourselves really through the course of our lifetime when we come onto the planet. Some believe we come in with some of these beliefs already ahead of time, and some believe in past lives and karma, and that all may be true. Whether that's true or not, what we do know is that human beings are walking around with these primarily subconscious beliefs about themselves until we start to bring them conscious. And these beliefs about ourselves get formed through particularly our early 0 to 5 time on the planet. I'm going to go a little deep here. Want to go a little deeper? Yeah, absolutely. All right. So when we first come onto the planet as little babies, we don't know in consciousness that we're separate from the rest of the world in our consciousness, not in our cognitive consciousness, but in our wholeness. The infant has the belief, not even the belief. The experience of there is no difference between myself, my parents, the tree, the dog. It all exists simultaneously through the course of those first zero to three years. Fundamentally, there is a process we call differentiation. It's the recognition that we are separate within this whole. And as that differentiation is happening, you'll notice the infant starts to pull on the parent's ear, grab necklaces, grab their nose, and what they're recognizing is, oh, wait a minute, I'm pulling on this ear. This isn't my ear. Wait a minute. We're not all the same. You are not me. I am not necessarily you. And that's extraordinarily exciting and liberating and also terrifying. Oh, no, I am separate from you. What happens if you're not available for me at the same time, when the world is not going as the infant or adolescent or adult may want it to, if the needs are not being met in the way that they hoped that they are. Through love, through affection, through feeding, through attention, through all of the things the little brain or the adolescent brain or the middle aged brain starts to try to figure out what the heck is happening here. And especially the younger brain because it's still trying to figure out its place in the world. Its only answer is it must be my fault because I didn't get fed, because my mom didn't show up, because my parents are fighting, because the car got in an accident, because the storm happened. What did I do wrong? And so these little seeds get planted inside and these seeds become these subconscious beliefs. And these subconscious beliefs we start to live in without knowing that they exist. Yes. And if we boil them all down and there's hundreds and thousands of these, but if we break them down and if that's true, then what? If that's that true, then what? And we bring em all the way down. There's about five subconscious beliefs that we all tend to resonate with. One, two or three of them. And I'm going to say them. And as I say them, Mary, you've shared yours in the past.

I'm remembering.

Whoever's listening, yeah, whoever's listening, I'm going to encourage you to tune in. For some of you they may be obvious. For some of you may be, nope, I don't resonate with any of these. But just notice as I state each of these subconscious beliefs, which one kind of resonates? Which one you think, oh wow, I kind of do see the world through this lens. And they are, and they're cousins, I call them cousins. They're very similar, but they are distinctly different in the way we experience them. So these are, I don't matter, I'm not lovable, I'm not enough, I'm not valuable, I'm not worthy. And these seeds that got planted, we tend to then start to look through the lens of this belief and start to look for evidence that proves this hypothesis to be true. And as we continue through our life, we continue to generally see the world through that lens, particularly when we're in a interaction that challenges us or that there's something at stake or there's a possibility of something losing or that we're disappointed in. So if we go back to this victim mindset in one of these circumstances, Mary, when you went in to initiate this change and you were noticing this frustration and disappointment in how folks may have been responding to you, which of those subconscious beliefs was being hit for you?

Say them again for me. So I think I know which One it is.

Yes. Yep. I don't matter. I'm not lovable. I'm not enough. I'm not valuable or I'm not worthy.

For me, I think it's probably the I don't matter or I'm not enough. And that stems from, I mean, we're going to go deep here, like, you know, like you said, adolescence, growing up under a sister who I was very close to in worship. And she was everything. She was super successful, super smart, super liked and popular. And I, you know, I think as you go through life, you keep some of that in the back of your head. And I'm sure there were other factors, you know, not just that, and we're very close and she's amazing, but you go through that, you find yourself in a new situation and you're. That stuff starts to show up again and people aren't paying attention to your project. And maybe I didn't do a good job. Maybe I'm not the right person to deliver this project or I think there's some of that comes. But then the reaction in sort of protecting yourself is of course to be like, no, it can't be me. It's. I'm doing all the things. It's because the software sucks, or it's because no one, you know, communicated this well. And I told them this 10 years ago. And, you know, all this stuff starts to come out where you're blaming the situation and pointing fingers at others rather than, you know, wondering what is it that's making you feel this way? You know, feeling like.

That's right. That's exactly right. And so what we end up doing in that is we're experiencing this. In your case, I don't matter or I'm not enoughness. And our tendency is then I've got to blame or change something outside of me to help take care of that feeling inside. And so now our focus becomes on something outside of ourselves that we don't. You don't actually have any control over.

Right.

To manage what's happening inside. Now, this is the other key to this process of how we move ourself out of the victim into the observer mindset. And this is the other part that I find the most challenging for people to internalize, to understand, to get on board for. Because we have been so conditioned to have our performance, our external world, determine our own value and worth. Particularly in executive tech industries where people are high performers, their value is based on how much they produce, how much they succeed. And so because that sense of self is so tied to some external result. That's where we end up getting stuck. Now, from this model, this lens, we move into the place that fundamentally, intrinsically, unalienably, the truth of a human being is that I do matter. I am valuable, I am worthy, I am lovable, and I am enough, absolutely, fully independently of any of my successes, of my impact, of my effectiveness. And so once we get that, then we can. That allows us to get the elevation to move into that place, that observer state, to go, oh, wow, okay. These things yet are true. Our software isn't as strong as we probably need it to be. Yeah, we're having challenges with implementation, but we hold it from this place of what is observational versus why it is getting in the way versus okay, this is our opportunity for. Yes, yes.

So, again, going back to the countless people who I talk to who say, this is my situation, Mary, you know, it's not working out. I think I should just leave. Would you agree? And, you know, I often say this is a hard role. This is the situation that you might expect at your next role. You know, what's to make you think that this is not going to happen again? And I heard someone say a great three things that I thought was great. You know, you think about your situation, you have three choices. Accept, change or leave. You know, and if you're going to accept it, then you got to stop complaining, you got to stop blaming, you know, it for what it is. And you have to. You live with it. I think the better option is to think about, can you change? What can you do to change the situation? And doing that with the observer mindset of, I'm going to take a step back. These are things that are terrible, that do exist and that, you know, just exist in the world, the economy. I can't change that. Okay, but what are the things that I can be more proactive about and be active in having an effect on how the situation is going to play out or how I'm going to feel about it. And then, you know, at the end, if you've really tried everything and it is a terrible situation and you see that it's not healthy for you, then absolutely, then you should leave. But there's. To me, there's choices in the matter, and it's not just I throw my hands up, this isn't working onto the next thing.

Yeah, interesting. I like the accept, change or leave model. I would slightly turn it to first, we just need to accept what is like. Yeah, being able to truly come in contact with what is versus through the lens of it should or shouldn't be this way. So accept, then identify, make a choice to continue to participate, see what we can do to change, and then make the potential choice if it does turn out that the choice is to leave. We've chosen to leave from a place of empowerment, from a place of I value, I matter, I'm worthy versus leaving from a place of victim.

Yeah.

And so.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's great advice. Anything else you want to touch on that we didn't touch on this topic?

It's, you know, as we're talking about this, I think slightly adjacent to this. And what's striking me in this change or leave scenario is how much our fight or flight system gets brought in to this scenario and our fight or flight system. Whenever we are faced with some perceived threat, we tend to go into a fight or flight, that's that change or leave. And there's a moment there to pause and recognize that we're in that fight or flight. And the fight or flight is a protected mechanism. But how can we pause long enough, get re engaged in our connected part of our brain, our part that is no longer in the fight or flight, which also, that's important to help move us into that observer. Because when we're in fight or flight, it's very difficult for us to make that move. And some of the ways to move out of that fight or flight is, you know, taking that space. It's our meditation, it's our yoga, it's some sort of creative pursuit. It's being in nature, it's spending time with family or friends. It's all of these things that we tend to ignore when we're in that fight or flight state. So to give ourselves the opportunity to let just the nervous system regulate is also fundamental to be being able to make this move and to be able to recognize, okay, how can I take responsibility? What is it I could be doing? How can I be making some change here?

Yeah, that's fantastic. And you know, I'm smiling because we've talked about this a lot and this is something I personally am now conscious of and try to work on, which is that I live in fight and flight. My superpower is my decisiveness and just action oriented and getting stuff done. But at the same time, with probably so many personal qualities, your superpower can also be your weakness, which is that, you know, sometimes need to slow down, take a moment, think about the situation before making a decision too quickly. So that's also been really helpful advice from you.

Yeah. The topic of burnout has also is a big conversation right now and really fundamentally what burnout is a sustained chronic state of fight or flight. And we can take short breaks, we can take a weekend vacation, but if we're continued to be in this chronic fight or flight state, eventually the system shuts down, we go into a freeze mode. So this is another opportunity when we notice ourselves in the drama triangle to some degree, that's probably a pretty good cue to recognize, oh, I'm also in fight or flight. And this is the time that again to create that separation. So to help prevent that burnout long term is also to be really attuned to where and what state we are in, as well as what position we may be in in the drama triangle.

So how do we do that as professionals? For the legal industry, burnout is a real big issue these days. There's all, I mean, legal Ops is no different. There's always something, there's always a fire, there's always fire. 400 things on your prioritization list with no breaks and more. Really, you know, why didn't you do that yesterday? Type of urgency. So you never really feel like you can take a break. And you know, I guess what do you tell busy executives and professionals who are builders and this is kind of the life that they thought they were signing up for and how to maximize their effectiveness?

Yeah. What we introduced this whole system and so that we bring so much consciousness to the state so we can be in the same sort of environment. It's how we're relating to the environment. Some of my most early teachers said it's not the issue, that's the issue, it's how we're relating to the issue that is the issue. So it's this high level of consciousness in regard to the state. I often when I start a session, I say, let's talk about the state of Mary as she's coming in and as we bring awareness to our state. Once we have awareness, that allows us to adjust our state. And one of the things I talk a lot about is mini breaks. It can be a 10 second break, it can be a 5 second break. I highly recommend 50 minute working sessions with a 10 minute break. As much as we can create these little mini pauses throughout the day that we can recognize. And in that moment, where am I, what state am I in?

Yep.

Connect to that place inside. The way emotion works is emotions are like toddlers to some degree and they need the attention. The minute you make connection, deep, full connection with the state generally will regulate but what we end up doing is avoiding it because we don't want to. We don't want to feel that disappointment, we don't want to feel that fear, we don't want to feel that sadness, we don't want to feel that anger. So we spend the whole day trying to control the things again outside of us to manage that emotional state. So the more we can take that pause, connect into whatever that emotional state is, be with that state it regulates. There's a toy, the Chinese, I think they call it a Chinese handcuff.

Finger cuffs or something.

Yeah, yeah, finger cuffs. And you put your finger in and the harder you try to pull, it tightens on you. You can't get your fingers out. But if you relax the hand, then the toy relaxes and you can take the fingers out. So it's that process of relaxing into whatever that state is that allows the states to regulate and then allows us to move forward.

Yeah, that's so great. And the practical advice that you've given me, you know, I've come to you and said, look, the state of Mary is I have back to back zooms. I am flying on airplanes, I'm saying hi to my family as I'm passing them in the hallways. And just back to back, no time to go to the bathroom, no time to get a bite to eat. And forget to even follow up on the previous zoom because I'm onto the fifth one from then. And you said, you know, just give yourself a minute, give yourself 30 seconds before ending one call and getting on the next one just to change kind of your frame of mind and get ready for that next person so that you're also just fully there and not still processing the last meeting. And so I have been trying to consciously just build in those micro breaks. And it really does help to be able to move from, you know, talking to one person internally at Ironcloud about something and then moving on to a podcast and then moving on to a public speaking session. It's like you do just need to change your frame of mind a little bit.

Yeah.

So that's been super helpful.

Another, I don't know what we'll call it, a theory, I guess, that I've found super fascinating lately. It's called Minimum Effective Dose. And Tim Ferriss four hour work week, he talks about this. I'm actually not sure if he came up with it or if he's just speaking more about it, but I love this idea that if we want to make some significant change in our life, whatever that may be, in relationship to our health and being our family life, our mental state, whatever it is. If we can implement the minimum effective dose, which means a very small change can have a very big leveraged outcome. If we can identify the minimum effective dose, for example, in exercise, we're getting ready to come around to the first of the year. So I'm sure there are lots of folks out there that are planning and intending their next resolution and they're going to be fired up about how they're going to hit the gym five days a week or six days a week and they're going to change their diet and they're going to do all of these things and it'll probably last. I think they say the average, the average New Year's resolution lasts I think 12 or 13 days. And so the likelihood of that having sustained benefit is pretty low.

Yeah.

And what minimum effective dose says is okay, if we can choose something that we can commit to longer term, we will get a highly leveraged benefit. So for example, in this exercise routine there are many high intensity, low commitment, 15 to 20 minute workouts. If we could commit to two 20 minute workouts per week and sustain it for the course of the year, imagine that's 20 minutes. So let's say 40 minutes a week times 50 weeks, that's 150 hours ish of working out that we'll do versus the 10 to 20 that we did in our high intensity January and then our on again off again throughout the whole rest of the year. So in relationship to these micro pauses, these little mini meditations, they have a profound effect. If we can commit to two or three 15 second pauses in a day, you'll see that supports more and more pausing without even recognizing it. Suddenly that becomes the habit between many of other transitions. So thinking about this minimum minimum effective dose I find super fascinating and it allows us to not feel over committed. We can make a decision to make some minor change without having to overhaul our process.

Yeah, this, I mean bringing this kind of back to the legal ops world, this is such, this is sort of the advice I often give people and even from in my ironclad situation seat where they want to, you know, implement software and it's a major change for the entire company, not just the legal department. And I often say do not try to do it all at once. Do not try to boil the ocean because it's too much, it's too much change. People freak out, they go running and they, you know, they react very poorly. But if you start with something small, this minimal effective dose and say, hey, what's something you guys don't like to do in this area anyways? Let's just try that, get that off our plate. It's not scary. It's not threatening to their jobs. It's just this little thing that we can work on, get them to say yes to that. It's the same idea, you know, they say, yes, they find it works well for them, they can stick with it. And then they say, okay, let's add a little something there. And we call it land and expand. But it's the same idea, right, of people around slowly in micro doses, and then the next thing you know, they're working out. Every day, you know, it's the same. You show the benefits. They kind of come over to the side and understand why it's good for them. The other thing that people come to me all the time with is imposter syndrome. And that's another theme that, you know, is everywhere and across all roles and responsibilities these days. But because this is such a new role, people didn't go to school for this. People didn't train for this. They're sort of brought in to learn and drink from the fire hose. And similarly, a lot of general counsels and clos will come to me and say, this is my first time. I've just been a practicing lawyer. I used to just do corporate law or litigation, and now I'm supposed to know everything. I have never touched that. But of course, we know that's not the expectation. You surround yourself with great people. But, you know, I guess, do you get a lot of sort of folks in executive coaching that say, ah, people think that I should know more, I don't know what I'm doing. How does that sort of show up?

Yeah, yeah, I, I both professionally and personally, I don't think I've met a single person who hasn't had some experience of imposter syndrome. Of course, and really, from my point of view, this goes back to those fundamental unconscious core beliefs. And because of some experiences that we've had in the past, we start to create these subconscious, core subconscious beliefs. And so when I'm working with somebody in that imposter mindset, we go into identifying what that subconscious core belief is. And we also really work deeply with separating performance from that core belief. Because the truth is, even if you are not in the appropriate level position, which sometimes happens, and sometimes that perception is accurate, it really doesn't have anything to do with the core of who you are. It does deeply get in the way of your ability to perform within that environment. And so we work from the bottom up so we identify that core belief once we've recognized, acknowledged, started to build up that core belief. Now we can look much more objectively at what it is that I can be coached in what help I may need. Another big issue we work with so much is this idea of asking for help and how asking for help somehow reflects ineptitude or lack of competence. And the truth is, the more we can ask for help is more a reflection of our deeper belief and confidence in ourselves and the others around us. So imposter syndrome is really, yet again, another reflection of these subconscious beliefs being played out in the current.

Right.

Environment.

Do you think you can be a super confident person and still have imposter syndrome?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Because it's not about your skill set and it's not about not believing in yourself. It's some other part of your core belief deep down somewhere.

Yeah. This is the tricky part about these subconscious core beliefs is we can spend time with them and they will heal. Because really, these are built out of some hurt or some injury or some disappointment. And so as we become the ones that are attending to these hurts, they. They become smaller and we recognize that they are not the truth of us.

Right.

It's rare that they're fully healed. And so whenever they get touched, suddenly they feel like the whole again. And like, I haven't made any progress whatsoever, but they'll generally continue to be there. It's our responsibility, though, how we take care of those. So again, in this imposter syndrome, it's really discerning. What does that actually mean? Does it mean I'm not qualified? Does it mean I'm not good enough? Does it mean I'm not. I don't have the skill set. Like, we really need to explore that a lot deeper to find out what is behind that imposter syndrome, because it really is different for everyone and it's much more complicated than. There's not a generally a single situation that's informing that experience of imposter syndrome.

That's right. And I think what you also just said is that it can come and go, and it can be magnified in different ways depending on things that are happening.

That's right.

So you, you can. I mean, I have a lot of confidence in myself, in my role, and I know that I can do it better than anyone. But there will be moments and throughout the day or through the year or through your profession that someone says something or something happens that you get start to question yourself and maybe it's just for a split second or maybe it's for a longer period of time and it is something that's eating at you. But yeah, I think it's not you. It's not like you either have it or you don't.

It's.

I think everyone has it, like you said. And how much is it gonna have an effect on you?

Yeah, yeah. I think what you said there's so important and this is why we spend so much time on personal responsibility.

Right.

Because the world looks as we are. So if something has been triggered inside of us, we're going to see that outside of us. So the work is always bringing it back to what just happened, what's happening in here, which helps me then understand what's happening, how I'm relating to what's happening out there.

Yeah, it's so helpful. I'm just thinking there's so many things that you and I have talked about or talked through over the years and even just. And I've forgotten a lot of them that you've reminded me of today. But just being so conscious of these frameworks, these mindsets, these ideas, these lenses I guess is right the right word to. To look at things through and to be conscious of just taking a moment to pause. All these things are so useful both professionally and personally in your life. That again, why I think our experience together and why I'm such a fan of this whole executive coaching thing is just being aware of how you react to things and you know, how you can change that or just be conscious of what's happening or not happening to you in some ways.

Yeah. And the slight turn there is. If we are framing it in this thing is happening to me.

Yes.

Then we know we're in the victim mindset.

Yes.

If we shift it to this is happening for me.

Yep.

That we can look at whatever the experience is through the lens of there is potential learning, growth, development, upliftment for me here. Then it changes how we relate to every experience wherever happening. Right. So am I saying what's happening to me or what's happening for me?

Yeah.

And that slight shift changes how we relate to everything happening in our.

And no one's perfect. Right. Even we all hear this and we.

Oh heck no. We are always. We're going to screw this up all the time. We're going to be over there. It's the catch and the readjust. The catch and readjust. People ask me that all the time, Kim. How do I always stay in observer mindset. You don't. Yeah, you will. Rarely. You'll be there less often. Absolutely. Than you want to be. But now at least you know it's available.

So many moments where you're like, I know that I'm in that mindset right now. I'm going to get out of it. It's going to take me a moment. But at least you have the tools. So I can't thank you enough. And thank you for being here and sharing with the world all your amazing lessons. It's been a pleasure having you and speaking.

Thank you, Mary.