#51 - Mary’s Next Big Move and Life Lessons with Leslie Henthorn from Ironclad

Welcome to Pearls on Gloves Off. I'm your host, Mario Carroll, and today we're doing something different yet again. We are flipping the tables. You may have heard that I've recently announced that I'll be leaving Ironclad and taking on a new challenge. My dear friend and colleague, Ironclad's chief Marketing officer, Leslie Henthorne has agreed and offered to host today's episode with me actually playing the role of guest. So we do that today and we talk through some of my career path, why I decided to bet my career on Ironclad, and what's on the horizon. We also get into some personal things. We talk about mentors, we talk about lessons learned. We talk about what it's like to be a working mom, what does balance mean, and so much more. You may be also wondering what happens to the podcast after this. Well, good news. I believe at least it is my intention to find a way for it to continue to live on. There may be a slight transition period, but hopefully that will be minimal and we'll be back on track with new episodes soon enough. So, as always, I'm grateful for your listening and I hope you enjoy the show.

Hello, everyone, My name is Leslie Henthorn and I am the Chief Marketing Officer here at Ironclad. And in a strange turn of events, I'm hosting Mario Carroll, the world renowned Pogo podcast host, in basically her farewell episode with us as a team. So forgive me that I'm not going to do as well right off the bat, but. Mary o', Carroll, welcome to pogo. Is that weird that I'm in you?

I think it's, it's awesome. And I chuckle because so many people internally call it Pogo at Ironclad. And I remember being like, what is everyone? What is Pogo? And they're like, pearls on gloves off. And I said, oh, I see. I, I never heard that until a bunch of people internally had mentioned it to me. But yeah, that's the, the short, the shorthand is Pogo. I guess that's true.

You know what's so funny about that is I actually, I, I. Pearls on gloves off. Someone told me that was Pogo, but I've asked probably 14 times and now I only remember Pogo. So thank you for calling that out. I know your intro will say the real deal, but in terms of today, you know, I think one of the things we've got to just address right off the bat is the fact that you're moving on to a new position. And as someone who's worked with you for the last two years and someone I would consider a friend and someone I care deeply about. I'm really excited for you, Mary, but it's a transition moment.

It is. So thank you. It's been such an amazing run here. Epic experience. Some of the most fun years of my professional career, for sure, have been here at Ironclad. And, you know, transitions are hard. People keep saying, oh, it's bittersweet. It's always bittersweet. And I guess that's the right term for it because I'm really excited to start a new journey and to take on a new challenge, which we'll get into. But, gosh, I have made lifelong friends at Ironclad. I have learned so much. The company has grown, grown and changed. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I feel like my work here isn't done. Like, I kind of want to see it through and see what happens. But I trust you guys have an amazing team and it's going to continue to grow and flourish. So I'll be rooting for you and cheering you on from the side.

I feel that Mary and I will just say we have a lot to talk about today, but I will just say right off the top that for those that have actually gotten to meet you and talk to, you know, engaged with you at clock or community dinners and the woman that you are day to day is one that is, regardless of your impact in the legal world, is one that would be missed. But you add that on top of it and you add what you've done for this company and for the community. It's just one. We're so grateful for you. Like, we're just absolutely so grateful for the time and for the mentorship. You know, I came into this role and hadn't worked in a legal tech space at all and so learned a lot from you, learned a lot from this community. But you're just. You go above and beyond as a human. It's just something you do. And for me personally, for anybody listening out there, you've ever talked to someone or met someone who has the energy source, like, inside of them, you don't know where they get it. You don't know how they can have so much energy and just follow up on everything and be that great. That's you, Mary. So we are it greatly miss you day to day, but I know we're still going to be always each other's fans. So I know I'm still going to see you and talk to you. And I think the whole company feels that way as you move. And I, for those that haven't heard your trajectory, I think one thing that's really interesting is, you know, when you think about this journey at Ironclad, what brought you here to begin with because you were doing some really great things in the industry, I would call you like the founder of legal ops working at Google. But tell us a little bit about what brought you here to begin with.

Yeah. And first of all, thank you so much for the kind words and it's been such a pleasure working with you. And right back at you on all those aspects. I fell into legal. So many of us in the legal operations space, like nobody finished college and said, yeah, I'm gonna go be in legal ops, at least not in my generation because it didn't exist. Right. So I started my career actually in finance. I was an investment banker, I went into management consulting and by accident I joined a law firm called oric, a big international law firm. And I was working on profitability, working for the COO of the firm. And I was there for a while, learned a ton about how firms operated. Then I went to Google, did legal operations in an in house capacity for the first time. And you know, just to fast forward, all of my moves have always been about where can I have the biggest impact on transforming the legal function and the legal ecosystem. And I say that because when I started at oric, and I feel like I've told this story so many times, I remember showing up and understanding how law firms operate and what the business model was. And I turned to the leadership team and said, how are we getting away with this? Because it just seems so misaligned with what clients needed and so little collaboration, so little thinking, you know, how can we be doing this better? It was a lot of, well, this is how every other firm operates, every other lawyer operates. And so ever since, you know, my early days in legal at a law firm, I've kind of felt like there is a lot of change and disruption and transformation that has yet to take place in this industry. I'm very confident that it will happen, but how do we make that happen in a faster way? So when I went in house at Google, I kind of thought, okay, now I've got the backing of this big important client, we're going to start know, changing the way we do things. And we did a lot of great new things at Google. I built out that legal operations function, but I knew that I couldn't do it alone. And so that's when clock kind of started. I know that A lot of people say that, you know, I started Clock or I found a Clock. I think I would never take credit for clock. It was many of us who were the starting board who kind of came together in Silicon Valley and said, I think we have something here. This little book club of people getting together and sharing ideas and best practices. And that's really how Klok got started in 2016. And then, of course, that took off. And again, I poured a lot of heart and soul into Clock because I felt like, okay, now we've got all these companies talking together and now we're really going to be able to influence what happens in the legal ecosystem. And certainly we saw that. I mean, the rise of clock, the rise of the profession of legal operations created massive pressure on the industry to change. And all sorts of new providers entered ALSPs, Alternative Legal Service providers, flexible talent, legal tech, different ways of working with your law firm. So again, like, a lot of transformation started happening. And while I was there, while I was at Google and at Clock, like I said, the rise of legal technology really took off. And, you know, when I started in, legal technology was terrible. I mean, it just didn't exist. It was really focused on law firms. We tried to massage it and make it work for the legal departments. And then there was like the emergence of some bigger, more established, older legal tech companies that were addressing some of our needs. But really, not until, I'd say, the last 10, 8 to 10 years did we see the emergence of a lot more investments in legal tech and sort of the explosion. I remember watching Ironclad from the sidelines and being just really impressed that people liked what they were using as a technology platform. And you're in marketing, I've been in legal. All of us get together, we talk about how painful our tech platforms are, and it's a means to an end. And when you're doing legal operations, you're working on the people in the process. And the technology was always this afterthought. And as I watched our space change and evolve, I thought we finally gotten to the point where tech is going to be driving change in transformation in house. Because it's going to be, you know, it's going to be so good that people want to use it. It's a lot. I've always said it's like our consumer lives where we had cell phones and we had apps and you don't have to convince people to change. It's. You see it, you're like, oh, this is amazing. Why wouldn't I do it? This way and you know, tech finally got to that point in legal where the technology was going to drive change. And I saw that with Ironclad. And you know, I'll tell a quick story. We had Chris who, you know, was with us at Ironclad. He was one of the first attorneys at Google. He was the head of our commercial legal team. I did not know that. Oh yeah, he built the entire commercial legal team and then he transitioned into running legal technology for Google and he was eventually on my team at Google. And I remember, I mean, he could retire, he should go, you know, be in the sunset. But he is one of those who are never done. And he told me he was leaving and I was like, oh, you're finally going to retire and spend time with your family. And he goes, no, I'm going to Ironclad. And I was floored. I mean, I did not see that coming. And I remember thinking like, sad for us, sad for Google, big loss for me and my team. But the second feeling I had was a little bit of jealousy, like a little bit of, ah, you get to go join this like fast paced, high growth legal tech company and build something really amazing that's going to transform the way people work. And that seems really fun. So that's. It kind of got me thinking, you know, is there something for me at Ironclad? And I never thought that there was and I guess the story goes. And Jason and Kai, I talked to them and they had come up with this, this role. And after they told me about the chief Community Officer and what they had in mind in terms of building the community, it just, it like I couldn't sleep that night. I had so many ideas. I had a pad of paper by my bed, like writing down all the things that I wanted to do. So that's when I knew it was going to be the right move for me.

I think that's amazing. And I'll just say one of the things I remember about meeting you, Mary, when I was interviewing at Ironclad is that we hit it off like a house on fire right away because you understand something that I'm not sure a lot of people understand. And as a marketing leader, I fully believe that community is one of the most important things that you can, can build, but not community. For the sake of community, you have to be someone who really understands what the community is going through every day and what they're trying to solve. And so it's very cool to hear how you got to where you are today because you were one of the People and I, by the way, so Mario, Carol, to give the entire founding team credit for Clock and the things that you were building. Absolutely right. It's always a team. We're with other people. But you took it to a level where you were able to think, I have this great job at Google. I'm influencing, I'm building this, but I could still go to the scrappy startup that is going to drive even more transformation and do it differently. And I know this community and kudos to Jason and Kai for having the vision to understand that they needed someone like you who was really deep in making the decisions around purchasing and what transformation would look like from a tech perspective. So I will just say you're a born marketer, by the way, and having the operations and the marketing background also makes you a born salesperson because you really can do all things. So I think that's awesome. Do you want to give us just a little tidbit?

Now?

The marketer in me is, I just got to get this clear. There were probably other companies that came for you at the time. Knowing what your background was and how you understand the community, why did you choose Ironclad then? Obviously, Chris had the connection and you met Jason, Kai, but I'm sure that there was like a brand moment where you needed to be aligned in your mind with the right one. And also, why have you stayed? You know, I think you're probably, I mean, well, I know for a fact you're a hot commodity. Everyone wants to work with you. Mary, so. So why Ironclad and why have you been here for three plus years?

Yeah, when I joined Ironclad, there was and continues to be no other legal tech company that I would have even considered. What I. And I knew Jason and Kai when they had started the company. They had come. Yeah, I met them, they pitched to Google and we thought they were, you know, really cute with their vision. And of course, a few years later they became this huge company that we were considering for as a vendor for Google. So I watched them grow. I remember meeting them both very early on when they started the company and even then the vision that they had. And I continue to think that the vision that, you know, Jason has for the future of Ironclad is second to none as a CEO and as like a leader of where he wants to take things. He had, he has vision. He didn't want to just create software that accelerated how you were currently doing. A very broken process. He saw contracts as a key pillar, a cornerstone of how organizations operate and why it's so important and why the data in there is so important to unlock and like, where can we go from here? I mentioned earlier that the customers were happy. That was really unique, really unusual. And it wasn't even that they were happy, they were like singing praises. They were willing to, like, spend their free time doing, you know, webinars and customer calls and like telling everyone else how great it was. Like, that was really unusual. And so there was already this burgeoning community and this feeling of, you know, something really special with the company. And then the product itself was uniquely focused on the user. It was walkup usable. It was no code you could configure it. You didn't need like huge technology teams or budgets in order to make it work. So all of that, you know, the customer centric, user first was really important to me. The reputation was really important, the investors. I mean, if you look at, you know, Sequoia, Excel, Bond, Y Combinator, it's like the who's who of Silicon Valley. And so for someone who's a little bit risk averse when it comes to, you know, jumping into a startup, it was like, okay, well, this one's not going anywhere. This one's going to be here for the long run. And what an amazing leadership team. Everyone I met that I interviewed with was just really impressive. And then the role itself, Leslie, you know, is really unique. And I appreciate you saying that. I'm, you know, a born marketer and salesperson. But what was so important to me was that when I said to Jason, I don't want someone to hire me for my Rolodex, I don't want someone to hire me because I have a network and, you know, I want to be a leader, but I want to get out there and like, advocate for the profession, advocate for legal ops people, help them do their jobs better. Educate the world on where the disruption and the transformation needs to take place. And Jason said to me, that's the job, you know, that's what community is to me. That's what I want you to do. I want you to be there for the community and to help all these people. And Ironclad, as a result, will benefit. And I don't think any other visionary CEO is, you know, thinking that way about community. So many companies have tried to mimic what we've done here. And I keep telling the folks who are new to the role, I have a really unique and amazing setup here because of what, you know, the leadership team and Jason had allowed me to do.

Yeah, that's, that is actually really insightful, I think because people always hear out there, oh, we love community, we're building community. But I think companies that are willing to actually remember that community is not just so you can say you have a community and your brand gets stronger. Community is about the Persona and that means doing things, advocating for that Persona, regardless of whether or not it brings in pipeline or more signups.

Right, Exactly.

It's really being there where you need to be and it's not always tied to business outcomes. But how does it like really speaks volumes about how much you care about the community over the bottom line. I can see that you live, breathe and die that Mary, as someone who has worked with Mary for two years, she is constantly talking to members of the community all the time. You have your finger on the heartbeat of what is going on. And so, you know, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I do think it's important as someone who has a ton of energy and who is always focused on the next thing that we just say, why now? Why are you evolving to something new? Mary, you know, obviously we're going to miss you, but I think we all care about just like Jason and Kai have the vision of what a real community looks like. One thing I very much value about Ironclad is we care about the whole human and the human has to be doing what fills you up as an individual. So tell us a little bit about what's filling you up next and where you're headed in and why.

Yeah, yeah, happy to. And I just want to just double down on what you said about how important it is for us as a company at Ironclad to know our customers. You know, Jason and I talk all the time about we want to be the company that knows our customers role even better than they do. You know, we want to know what their problems are, we want to know what they're challenged with. And I have loved that about Ironclad. So why am I leaving? I mean, obviously super happy, love my role here, have been blessed. It's been some of the most fun times that I can imagine. So I certainly wasn't looking. But as I tell everyone that I mentor and advise, pick up the phone, you know, people are going to keep calling. It is important to always pick up the phone so that you know what opportunities are out there, you know what you have. But it also for me, people call me and then it turns into an opportunity for me to say, hey, I know other people are, let me help you recruiter, find the people who would be a great fit for this role. It's actually helped me to help my network as well. I have a bit of a cursed personality type in that I don't know that I don't like to sit still, but I see a big challenge and I want it, and I wish that it wasn't that way. And like, my family jokes about it like, I can't sit still if I see something like, I'll invent a project. So, you know, this opportunity and I'll just tell you. I'm going to a law firm. I'm going to be joining Goodwin Proctor, which is a big international global law firm. And like I said earlier, that's kind of full circle of where I started my legal career. I started at the law firm and, you know, at the heart, at the end of the day, my passion is legal ops. It is transformation. And I have always gravitated towards those roles where, like I said, for Google, for Clock, for Ironclad, where can I have the biggest impact on changing the industry, the ecosystem? And so I think this is my latest adventure is kind of no different than that. I started my career at a law firm, and I have been, when I started there, I kind of, like I said earlier, saw a lot of things that I think were the beginnings of transformation. And for those who have been paying attention to the market, like, the firms are finally, you know, after 20 years or so, feeling a lot of pressure from clients, from competitors, and they're really facing some existential threats now, you know, with the technology, et cetera, that is forcing them to think differently about how do we operate in the future, how do we pivot, how do we change our offerings? And if I think about where most. The most disruption is happening right now in our industry, I'd have to say it's with law firms. And so I have always been someone who's going to steer myself right into the eye of the storm.

She has to do it.

To do it. I got to take on that big. It's risky.

It is.

You know, they're facing, like I said, an existential threat. So going right into the unknown, trying something that's really hard, that has risk to me, is both terrifying, but also, like, thrilling and exciting and something that I just get really jazzed about wanting to do. And so I figure there's a lot of stuff happening here. I could either watch it from the outside and critique and say, oh, they should be thinking about this or doing this better, or I can dive in, roll up my sleeves, and Try to lead it for myself.

You absolutely can. Mary, if anybody can go into the storm and take on the challenge, I believe it's you and really appreciate that quality in you. And if you don't mind, do you mind telling us what the new role is? I want the folks on this new team that you're going to be working with to understand how lucky they are that you are that kind of a leader. By the way, you're going to dive in. In addition to being an amazing human, that's a good thing to have in someone that you're working with. You want someone to be in that foxhole with you to battle it out. So what are you going to be doing at Goodwin and Proctor?

Yeah, so I'm joining a global law firm called Goodwin Proctor. I will be the coo, the Chief Operating Officer, where I'm going to be leading the global operations team. It's a team that consists of about a thousand team members and we'll be developing and executing on transformational objectives, operational strategies. And so this team encompasses, you know, all the C level, so that the finance, client development, innovation, information technology, information security, marketing, comms, practice management, HR talent, kind of all those functions on the op side. And then also thinking about, you know, kind of the future direction of legal and how law firms will be operating. So. So it's really exciting. It's a big role, but something. Yeah. That I'm ready to do.

If anybody can do it, I know it's you, Mary, that is going to be really exciting. And I just, I'm very excited for this team. I'm not going to keep saying it, but I do think that when you're looking for your next teammate, you want someone who's down to earth and real and cares about what the outcomes are, but also is willing to deal with the issues and the problems so that the outcomes can happen. And I. I think that is totally you. So speaking of that, I'm going to take a little bit of a turn, if you don't mind, Mary, because your background is so fascinating and I don't know what people know or don't know. I think those that are Mary fan fans know a lot more about you than maybe meets the eye when it comes to your career and how you got here. But one of the things that I think is amazing about working with you as a woman in leadership is how you help people every day. You know, it's not just, oh, I'm the community leader, I gotta connect this and connect this. But you were saying something about how you would always pick up the phone and call. And I know this about you. When Covid hit or when we were in Covid, I came in a little after that. When we were in Covid, and we saw some, you know, in the past year and a half, we saw some legal opportunities being affected or we saw some of our champions. Like, I had people reaching out to me. Oh, Mary introduced me to this person, and this happened. What is it in your value system that has made you such a people person, a connector? It's phenomenal. I've never worked with someone who can do it so well. And I hope I'm not putting you on the spot with that question. What do you think it is that drives that in you?

I'm a connector at heart. I don't even. There's, you know, I've always been, as a child, as a college, like, after college. I love people. I'm an off the charts extrovert. You know, if I take any of these personality or leadership tests, it's. You are very highly sociable. Yes, I like people. And, you know, like, I always joke, people always say, oh, like, conferences like clock are so exhausting because you talk to a thousand people and then you go back to your hotel room and you collapse. And I say, yes, physically, I'm exhausted after a day like that. But I go back to my hotel room and I'm like, who should I talk to? There's nobody here. I'm bored. Like, I need. I love to be surrounded. Yeah, I love people and I love to help. And I think. I love to hear what's going on with people and what they need and what they're good at and what they're looking for. And then if I have another conversation where someone's, I'm looking for this, and I'm like, oh, you should meet so and so. That's just always been a part of my personality. So I'm glad that it's been helpful to people in their networks and their careers. But, yeah, so, you know, one thing someone once told me was when you're trying to do something and you want to get yourself out there, just tell people. Tell. Tell people you're looking for a role. Tell people you're struggling with X, Y, Z. And they, you know, they may not have the answer or be able to help you in that moment, but the next conversation they have where someone's, oh, I'm looking for, you know, someone like this person, and they go, oh, I just talked to Leslie and she was saying something that she Needed to find, you know, something, a plumber, whatever. And then you connect them and makes me happy. I like to do that.

I think that's great. I definitely can tell you like to do that. I am an extrovert, too, but I need the downtime in a different way than you do. And it makes me wonder, Mary, you know, as you've been such a help to so many people in their careers, did you have anyone in your life that played a critical role in your journey? Is there someone that really either lifted you up or taught you about the vulnerability that you're talking about, which is be real about what you're looking for. Just tell people how it is. Don't hide it. That in itself, I think, is a superpower. And obviously, we're in the age of Brene Brown and vulnerability everywhere. But did someone teach you that before? Because this is something you've carried with you for a lot longer than when it was popular to you.

I have a lot of amazing, wonderful mentors, advisors, the personal. What do they call it? The personal board that's around you. And like I said, I love people. And I'm also an extrovert. So I'm an open book. I'll tell people my problems. I'll tell. If someone says, how's it going? I'll tell you what's on my mind for the day. And so I do seek advice. I seek help. A lot of learning through failure and experiences and trying things and figuring out what works and what doesn't work and having people along the way give you feedback. And I think that's how I've grown in my career is a little bit of not being afraid to just go head into the storm. And so if you're going to fail and need to pivot quickly, realize that and learn from it. I mean, people always talk about fail fast, fail fast. And failure's not bad. And it's not as long as you don't just fail. You know, you have to turn it into a success or pivot it and learn something.

Yeah. And having this safe space, I mean, I think about that as a leader all the time. You can push your team to try and fail fast, but if they think they're gonna get in trouble or if they think somebody. You know what I mean? Like you, You've gotta create the space that you can allow people to fail and try.

So true.

And that is awesome that you've learned that through your career and your personal board of directors. And probably because you're someone who does seek advice, it's not as scary to fail when you hear about other failure stories, you know what I mean? And really take those in. I'm going to ask you maybe a little bit more of a personal moment in this because I don't know if everyone knows you have three girls. And I always think that is so interesting. I come from three girls. I'm the oldest of three, all in three and a half years. Yours are very close together in age as well. And, you know, as you think about being one, a working mom and very much traveling all the time, how do you create that safe space for your girls to fail? By the way, I want you to tell a million stories about your girls. Mary is raising some amazingly smart, stubborn, and I mean that with love. Like you're not worried about them in the world. Because the stories she tells me about her daughters, I'm like, oh, well, they're just like you. There's no fear. So you must be creating that same space at home. How do you balance all of that, truly?

Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, as we all know that balance is a fictitious word. There is no such thing as balance. And I remember when I was expecting my first child and going to a bunch of amazing women leaders and trying to get advice. That's one thing I learned quickly is that there is no balance as a working mom. There's a lot of sacrifices that you make so that you're, you know, 70, 80% at everything. You have to kind of figure out what you're okay with. And there's trade offs in life. Like, I have very little social life, very little social life. But I get a lot of my energy and my sociability out through my job, you know, and my roles and like, being with people. But I do. I have three daughters. They are now 14, 11 and nine. So I'm dealing with the teenage daughter, which she'll never listen to my podcast. So it's okay to say, but that is the biggest challenge I think I've ever dealt with in my life is like teenage girl. That's a lot. Yeah. And I think you're right. It is also because they have, like my oldest has my stubborn, you know, have to learn things the hard way type personality. And for better, for worse, like, they're very independent because they have been forced to be. And so have they missed out on having mom be home all the time? Absolutely. Certainly, like people at school have no idea who I am because I don't volunteer, I don't drop off, I don't pick up like you'll never see me at school. Never. But I think they're doing okay. And when I am present with them, like we are present, you know, I'm. I turn it off, I walk away from my laptop and I'm with them. Yeah, they love public speaking. They want careers, they want to be successful, they want to study hard, and they're very independent because they have to be.

You know, I have to say this, Mary. First of all, everything you've said through this conversation shows up in that answer. Because when you're being super vulnerable about how you live in your personal life, two, you are being candid in a way that lets people also be vulnerable with you. I'm a stepmom of kids, and I haven't been in their lives their whole. And they have a mom. But what's great that I love that you said is I don't volunteer and I don't do these things because I think we as women are constantly comparing ourselves. Especially, like, if your friends don't work and you do work, if you're constantly feeling guilty for one or the other. And the women in the group that maybe don't work feel guilty that they're not doing that. And the women who are working feel guilty that they're not in the school. But the bottom line is kids adjust. And if you're present with them, when you get back to them, they know they're loved. You rarely hear honesty like that, Mary, so I appreciate that. Thank you.

Yeah, I'm only honest. I don't know how to not be honest. I can't play poker. I have no poker face. And, you know, there's this whole, like, working mom versus stay at home mom thing that people try to make a thing. Oh, my God. I cannot tell you how much I adore. I adore the stay at homes. I love them when I see them. I worship them because I'm like, thank you. Thank you. I cannot do what I have to do if there aren't people like you who are making the day so amazing for our children. So I am appreciative. Like, they're so thoughtful in the way that they're volunteering and bringing things to class and, like, doing all the things that I'm like, wait, where's my kid supposed to be today? Oh, I forgot to send her, you know, with that. Oh, well, well.

And it does two things saying that, like, one, it helps your kid learn how to be strong and survive and deal with whatever comes their way. But two, I think acknowledging the women that are fed by something different. Because that's really, to me, what it's all about. Right. You are fed by this community and career, but you also appreciate the women that are fed by something different, and that could be being the one in the classroom with your kid. If all of us were to give each other that much grace, I think the world would be a lot different. You know what I mean?

Well, you also have to know yourself. And I'm a better mom for seeing them at a short period of time.

And more present and more there.

Kinder. Kinder. You know, kinder during the summer when they're around a lot. Like, we need some space sometimes.

Yeah. And that's okay, too. I think that's okay, too. It's a really good thing. We at Ironclad believe there is no one else who could do Pearls on Gloves Off. This is Mary's brand. So you're going to take hopefully this with you and whatever reincarnation that you want to do. And so at Ironclad, we're going to figure out how we want to change up the name. I know you'll come visit us from time to time. We still plan on working together in this industry in a lot of ways. But if you could leave the viewers on this and people in the community with just a thought around, because everybody's in a point in their lives where they have to make decisions every day. And I'm inspired by you and the decisions you're making for your future. If you could leave people with one of your mottos in life or something that really hits the point home. Maybe it is drive into the storm or something like that. But if you could leave us with one merry Isaac as you sign off in this version of Pogo, I would be so grateful.

Oh, I don't know if I have a Marian, but I think that is the advice. Do things that make you uncomfortable. Do things that you're scared of. Go straight into where the conflict and the storm is and don't be afraid of it. I had a guest on this recently who told me about his career path and his very supportive wife who was like, what's the worst that can happen? That's how I kind of see it. Okay, what if it doesn't work out? What's the worst that can happen? It's not the end of the world. I can do something else. And have the confidence in yourself to be able to take on something that is scary. What I've learned, and I'm sure you have, too, as we have moved up our careers and gotten higher and being exposed to CEOs and boards and, you know, Clos and all these people who we so admire, you realize, and I love these people and they're all very bright and smart, but nobody is doing it. For the fifth time, nobody's done it all. Everyone is figuring out a large part of their job as they go along. You know, that whole imposter syndrome, I hate it. I say shove it under the rug. Do not ever feel like an imposter. You are as good as everyone else. And if you're getting hired, if you're getting approached by a recruiter, someone else is betting that you can do this job. So don't ever be the person that doubts you.

Amazing. I completely agree. And I would just say that is it, Mary. Go into the storm. Don't be scared. Believe in yourself and good things will come. And you have left us all with that legacy here. So thank you so much, Mary.

It's been, like I said, such a pleasure, such a highlight of my career, so much fun, such great people and this is a magical place. So kudos to the exec team, to Jason and Kai for building something. I will miss working with you all day to day, but you haven't seen the end of me. I actually think that my new firm's San Francisco office is pretty close. So I'll be stopping by to say hello. And there's so much in the future of CLM and AI and I can't wait to see it, how it all shakes out. So I will be rooting for you and staying close and love to all you guys.

Thank you so much, Mary o', Carroll, ladies and gentlemen, and her last poco with Ironclad. But if I know anything, there's so much more to come. So can't wait to see where you go from here, Miss Mary. And we'll talk all the time. I'm going to need those calls.

So thanks and thanks to the listeners.