Transitioning from Legal Partner to Legal Ops with Mike Haven

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to Pearls on Gloves Off. I'm your host, Mary o', Carroll, and today I am super excited because this podcast allows me to have an excuse to chat with some of my dear friends. And today we have yet another dear friend, Mike Haven. Mike is the head of legal operations and associate General Counsel for Intel. A trained attorney, he comes with over two decades of experience in law and legal operations, including roles with K and L, Gates, NetApp and Gap. On top of all this, Mike is president of clock, the corporate legal operations consortium, which we all know is the leading global community for legal ops. Welcome, Mike.

Thanks so much, Mary. I'm really excited to be here and I appreciate being invited.

Yeah. So happy summer. For those of you who don't know, Mike and I have kids who go to the same school, so I know that you're in full summer mode and chaos. So before we get into all this, I have a very important question to ask you, which is the most important question of the summer. Have you seen Top Maverick? And why is it the best movie ever made in the history of the world?

Oh, my God. We saw it on opening weekend. Not on opening night, but we saw it the Saturday of opening weekend. And I have been excited for that movie forever.

40 years.

It was supposed to be released, you know, a couple years ago maybe, but the pandemic held it up. And I've been super excited to see it because like most people in our generation, it was one of my favorite movies growing up. And we even were able to drag my 17 year old out with us to see the movie. And the boys loved it too, which was amazing. But, you know, they. I don't think they loved it quite as much as we did because it really is a movie made for our generation, so totally. It was fantastic.

So, yeah, I just rewatched the old one and it's still.

Have you seen it?

Yeah, I saw it and I watched the old one again and the old one's still good too, but the new one is just. I mean, I think it's the best movie ever made. I really do. But I am also a crazy Tom Cruise fan, so for those of you who don't know.

Yeah, I mean, the flight scenes are absolutely incredible. So I won't spoil any of it for any. Anybody who hasn't seen it, but it. It's just truly a must see.

So good. Okay, so I am excited for the two of us to talk for real now because we haven't really had the chance to sit down and be in the same place. And talk to each other, at least publicly, about clock, its history, the transition, the future. And so for everyone's background, because I think there's probably people listening to this who don't know a lot of who we are and where we come from. I was involved in CLOCK since its inception and a part of the board and all since the beginning.

I became, come on, everybody knows who.

Knows who's out there, who knows who is out there listening to this. Tom Cruise might be listening. We have to tell him what's going on. All right, so I became president, right? We led, I led the organization starting in 2019. And that's where I think you have to help me with my memory. I believe we invited you to join the board then because you were such an integral part of the organization and such a great active and contributing member since the beginning. And then of course, I stepped down last year and then was very honored to be handing the reins over to you. And you became Clock president in sometime in 2021, right? Is that right?

That's. Yeah, you got it right. You know, I mean, while you guys were building up this organization, I was sort tagging along and helping with things and speaking at all of the events. And I was just one of the volunteers really, who was helping. And in 2019, I was asked to interview to join the board and the rest is history. So that's, you know, it seems like a long time ago now, but I guess it really wasn't that long ago.

Yeah.

And you, lots happened since then.

A lot has happened. You were involved in CLOCK for a long time. You've been involved in legal laws for a long time. I remember when, I think I probably got to know you best, even though we knew each other. Right. But when I got to know you best was the first Clock, London. And I believe you came to be a speaker and you were with us. And of course, at that time, if we all remember, Clock had no staff, no, no team members. And so it was all us doing, you know, rolling up our sleeves and doing all the work. And so you were put to work that whole like, what, 48 hours that we were on the ground as well. And I remember you were so helpful. And when we left, we were all like sharing a car to the airport. And like, mind you, we'd been working for 48 hours. We hadn't slept, we were jet lagged, like we were really tired. Really looking forward to getting on that plane and going to sleep. And in the car, Connie says to you, hey, Mike, it'd be really Great. If you write a blog post while you're on the plane and email it to me when we land. And I'm thinking, there is no way Mike is getting on this plane and going to go do some work right now. And you. And you walk to the back of the plane because your seat was, like, further in the back than ours, and you disappear. And the flight is long and we're tired and we finally land. You know, we see each other in the San Francisco airport, and you're like, I'm done. I did my blog. And I'm like, wow, Mike Haven is truly dedicated to this cause. Like, he is one of us.

Yeah, you almost got that right. The only difference is that that was actually Sydney, Australia, we were flying back from.

That's why we were even more tired. Yeah.

Yes. And as you know, the. If. If you don't work that flight correctly, you come back with major jet lag. And because I was up all night writing that article, I was unable to get the sleep I needed to cure any jet lag. And so, uh, that was tough. But, yeah, that was. That's the first time I remember spending meaningful time with you as well. And we really got to know each other well on that trip. And one of the things you showed me when we were down in Australia, because you're familiar with that area, you have family down there, and you showed me the most comfortable underwear in the world. And you're like, mike, you have to go buy some of these bonds underwear, and they only sell it here, and you have to check it out. So I went and I bought a couple packs of it and brought it home.

They are the best. The best. And Mike, do you remember that? Yes. Now I'm laughing so much because, Mike, you're like, I don't even know this woman very well, and here she is telling me I have to buy underwear while I'm here in Australia. But it's true. Everybody gets bonds. They're the best.

So I came home with packs of bonds underwear and Tim Tams, and those were my amazing.

Oh, my God. You have a better mouth memory than me.

Well, as we said, a lot's happened since then, so.

So we did get to know each other. Well, I knew you were completely dedicated to the cause and you were such a great help to our team. And so when we came around to looking for new board members, and obviously it was not just that one trip, like, you continue to show up and contribute and do many, many, many great things for clock. So I thank you. And we've Talked about this before, but I'd love to hear it from you here. Like, why, you know, what was it about Clock that made you want to give up so much of your free time and sleep to giving to it?

Well, it all goes back to why I went into legal operations to begin with, Mary. I mean, I was a partner at a big law firm. I had a great job, I had a great trajectory. I had a book of business, and I was doing really well as a partner in a law firm. But I was pulled out of that in large part because of my desire to do something that I felt was far more meaningful for the industry and the world, and that was this emerging field of legal ops, which was about transforming the way that the business and practice of law. And there was a lot about the practice of law that bothered me that I thought needed to change. So I, you know, quit my partnership and took a big pay cut and went in house and started working in legal operations because it was something more meaningful for me. And then, you know, when Clock was getting started, I realized that that, you know, was really the vehicle that we were going to be able to use to effectuate the change that we all thought was so needed. And you can make change in your own organization, and that's a good thing, but if you can do it on an industry level, that's an even better thing. And Clock was about transforming the business and practice of law on an industry level. And that was something that I just pulled at me, and it was something that really was meaningful for me. So I dove in and wanted to help you guys build that up, and I was very lucky to have the opportunity to do that.

Yeah. And then you were a great board member. And then, of course, when I decided to take the role of Ironclad and I had to step down, it was a pretty, I think, easy decision to kind of turn to you and say, mike, I think you should throw your hat in the ring and take this role now. You had to think about it. I mean, I admittedly had to think about it when it was my turn to step into the role as well, because it's a big commitment. Right. And there's a lot of responsibility that goes along with such a big organization that has, frankly, a lot of sway in the industry.

The thought of trying to fill your shoes was utterly frightening. I didn't know if I had the bandwidth to do it. I didn't know if I was the right person to do it at first. Something that sort of bothered me at the beginning was that I Felt we needed a diverse leader in the role and because that's such an important part of what we're trying to change. And I believe we should always be the change we're trying to see. But, you know, I spoke to other board members and everybody felt that, notwithstanding the fact that I'm a middle aged white guy, that I was the right person for the job. And so then I moved to the thought of whether I actually had the time to do it. I was just starting a very big job at intel, and obviously that has to. Our day jobs have to be our first priority. So I wanted to make sure that I could give CLOCK the attention that it deserves and be able to truly lead the organization. And I just figured, you know, I'm still young enough to not need too much sleep, so I figured I would dive in and work really hard and do my best to fill your shoes. And there, of course, were some things that I thought needed to be different and change in clock. And we've done some things a little bit differently since then, and that's all turned out really well. So, you know, I was able to make that transition and now I'm just sort of used to it. And I'm working essentially two jobs, but I, I, you know, spend a lot of nights and weekends on this stuff, which is just fine.

Yeah, you know, I, I know the, the working two jobs and frankly, now that I have one job, I thought life would be better. But working this one job is actually more than the last two jobs. But I don't know what that says. My family was all excited for me to have one job, but yeah, it's. We're workaholics at heart and so it's going to come out in one way or another. And I love the filling the shoes comment. I like to say filling my Manolos, but you're doing an amazing job and doing it in your own way, which you and I talked about right during our transition. I said, you're not trying to be me, and I don't think anything anybody wants you to be me. And like, the next iteration of CLOCK has to be Mike, and it has to be authentically Mike. And, you know, we want to get to know you. How has it been? How's the first year been? And you know, what have you seen, what have you learned and how is it different or not different?

The first year has been amazing. I mean, it was in the middle of the pandemic that we made the transition and we were in a very tough spot, just like most organizations out there were during the pandemic. I mean, obviously our revenue stream went down significantly, but we did what we had to do to stay afloat and put on some really cool virtual events. And hats off to Betsy and her staff for charging through the pandemic with so much dedication and courage and doing a lot of things differently. And credit to you for having that structure and that foundation set up before you left, which really helped us get through those rough times. And it also helped my transition a lot. So it was invigorating to be leading an organization that was, you know, going through some really tough times and having to fight through those challenges and then sort of coming out on the other side of it all once we started to get back out there again and put on an event like we just had last month in Vegas, which was hugely successful, and see it all sort of all that hard work and all of those rough days and nights come to fruition. So it's been quite a ride.

Yeah. And it was an incredible event. You guys should be very proud. I felt very proud to have been a part of that organization, Watching it from the outside this time, and it was bigger, it was better, it was more energetic than ever, which says a lot. You know, coming out of a three year old in person. Pause. And coming out of a pandemic where you're not sure how people are going to interact in person again. But you guys brought the, the energy and the, you know, that, that spirit that embodied what CLOCK was in the beginning and it was just out in force.

Yeah, I mean, we, we had a major focus on the human element of, of it all because we thought that people would come back from the pandemic and maybe be a little more introverted than they were before or maybe feel a little bit awkward being back in a room with a lot of people. And so we took some big risks to try to help people get through their personal challenges around getting back into the wild again. And I think those risks paid off. Even the people out there like you, who, or maybe not super touchy feely type people, when it comes to the Dear World presentation that we did at the beginning, I think people really appreciated the opportunity to be vulnerable again and just sort of get back into that groove of opening themselves up to others. Because so much about CLOCK in general and also the CLOCK Global Institute is about opening yourself up to others and talking about what your problems and challenges are at work and having people help you through that. So, you know, my. What I wrote on my body for the Dear World Thing was ask for help, because, you know, I have a personal story around that. But it's also so important that people in our community go out and ask each other for help with problems at work, because that's what we're here for, and that's how we all make progress together. So, you know, helping people get back into that mode of being vulnerable and open and communicating in a setting like that was a big step forward.

Yeah. And you guys were so intentional about that and opening with that, which really sets the tone, you know, for the rest of the three days that we were all together. And creating that openness and vulnerability from the beginning was. Was just really great. So, again, kudos to you guys for that.

Thanks very much. Thanks for being such a big part of it.

Yeah. And everyone, look, everyone who went there, right. We, myself included, we knew the risk. We knew what we were getting into. And those who decided to make the trip were super excited, right. And, like, knew they wanted to be there. And, you know, I was hugging probably a thousand people over the. The course of. I, like many of us, came back with Clock vid, You know, the Clock Covid.

Not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Well said. But here's. Here's the great part of it, because so many people I know did come back with COVID And look, I mean, first, let me just say CLOCK did all the right things and making sure everyone's vaccinated and took all the steps. But it was. I mean, we were all. We were all ready to hug and jump on top of each other and, you know, shake hands and eat together. But everyone who got it, almost everyone, I think, came back to me and said, but it was totally worth it. Right? And I was like, oh, Clock was totally worth cover. So, again, a huge tribute to the success of the. Of the event.

Yeah. And fortunately, at least the people I know who came back with COVID weren't that sick. They were, you know, it was relatively mild. So thankful for that. And I, you know, I think if everybody had stayed contained in our little space, we would have had fewer of those cases. But everybody was out at other casinos and hotels and restaurants all over town, and there's just no way to contain it in Vegas.

Yes.

It's pretty crazy. Again, I think that the people who did catch it thought. Thought it was worth it. I didn't catch it. So I don't know.

Lucky for you. All right, and so, like, now that you're leading clock, I know that you came to it with certain passion areas. Right? Areas that you thought needed to change in the industry or that that were meaningful to you now that you're a leader and you've got this platform, you know, do you want to share what some of those are?

Sure. Well, DI is a big one. You know, that's one of those areas that we did do some stuff on before, but it was never a major pillar of our strategy or our focus. And I think it ought to be, and it is now. And you know, one of the things that we're focused on is forming partnerships with law schools, schools who are, and other educational institutions who are bringing in that pipeline of people who eventually could be legal ops superstars or parts of the ecosystem that are important. So we're doing a lot in the DNI area. We've formed a D and I committee that is full of incredible people and we have a lot of big ideas and things that we want to do there. So that's one. Another one is getting the membership more involved in the leadership of the organization for a multitude of reasons. You saw the fruits of the labor of one of these committees. It's called the Education Advisory Council, the eac, which is a committee of people from across the ecosystem, including law firm people and technology company people, ALSP people and in house people, all getting together to create the content that was presented at cgi. So rather than doing that in a silo on the board or just in staff, we had contributions from across the ecosystem on the content that should be presented. And, you know, what sessions we would accept and what sections we wouldn't. And it was really phenomenal to see that group do its work. And I thought it yielded an amazing result. And you know, frankly, we're. We're looking at other ways to develop the next generation of leadership in our community. And we're focusing heavily on the regional groups. We've got some of the regional groups kind of took a. Took a stall during the pandemic and now they're coming back in a major way across the world, frankly. I'm leaving on Sunday to go to Amsterdam for a Benelux regional event, a newly formed region and also the DACH region will be there as well. So there's a lot going on in Europe and in other parts of the world. We're truly a global organization and we're trying to get people from across the world involved not only in the participation in our community, but also in the leadership in our community. And that's a very cool thing to see. So that's awesome. Yeah, I call it sort of the democratization of clock, you know, we're not just a board of people doing everything for this organization. We are truly a community, and there is participation and leadership throughout the community. So that was one of the things that I was really focused on making happen.

That's so great. And I've seen it, I mean, for all of our own careers, right? How much CLOCK has helped in creating a platform for us for our own professional development, networking, and voice. Right? And now we're seeing the opportunities you are creating for others in the community to step up and have leadership roles and have their voice be heard in clock. And it really is showcasing them as leaders, what they're doing in their organizations and helping others come behind them. So that's awesome. Also wanted to react to your mention of the Education Advisory Council, which is great. And the content that you guys put together for CLOCK is.

Which.

Which again, was super strong and knowing how hard that is to do, because now more than ever, and I think this will continue to be a challenge for you all, is that there were so many people that were new to the role this time. Like, new to the role, new to Legal Ops, generally new to clock, and they are there to learn and absorb. And then you've got folks like you and I, who've been doing it for decades now, and you have people from different size organizations and different levels of budget and tech investment and resources. And somehow you've got to find a way to stay relevant and important and offering content that addresses people at all these different variations of that theme. And that's hard. How are you guys thinking about, right? Like, how do you continue to stay on top of that?

That is such a challenge, you know, because to your point, we have to serve that whole spectrum of members. And sometimes you'll hear from the people just starting out that there's not enough content for people who are brand new to this. You know, there's. There's. We actually heard that in Sydney, remember, when we were there, I think the second time, you know, we were getting into some more sophisticated, right. Content. And a lot of the people in the room there were sort of at the beginning of their journey, and they're like, well, we need. We need you guys to bring it down a couple of levels.

We did that last year. What you hear last year, we're brand new. Like, damn it.

Exactly. And so we did that this year at CGI with the Legal Ops 101 presentation that was done on Monday. And that was. That was really successful. And so we had, you know, we didn't make that mistake at CGI this year. But I did hear some feedback that we need to do more content for the most sophisticated cohort, and we certainly can do that. But, you know, pleasing all people all the time is certainly a challenge, but it's something that we are dedicated to trying to do.

Yeah, it's so hard.

We will improve upon that next year and I think we'll go back to what we used to do in terms of having the fundamental and advanced and mature. I think those were the categories, but different categories of content that people can sort of classify themselves where they are in their own maturity journey and focus on whichever level of content is best for them. So I think we're going to consider trying to do that again.

Yeah. Awesome. And what else is coming up in terms of are there other events this year you want to plug or what other sort of regional things are happening?

Well, we have a lot of regional events happening. I mentioned the one in Benelux and Dach coming up. And then we have our EMEA summit in October this year, which is off the normal schedule. We usually do that in January, I think it is, or February. But we're going to do that in the fall this year. And then hopefully in 2023, we'll get back to a more normal cadence where we're doing institutes in three different regions around the world. So hopefully we'll get back to the APAC region in 2023 as well.

Excellent. Looking forward to that and to just being in person again at all these things, which will be great.

Yes, indeed.

Okay, so changing gears a little bit, let's chat about your background. You were an attorney, as you mentioned, you were at a law firm as a partner, doing very well. Pretty big change to go into a legal ops function. You hear it more now, right? The lawyers who are deciding that's not the career path for them and pivoting, but you hear it more, you know, that's not to call you Old Mike, but earlier in their careers. Right. Like, you see, I've done this for three years. It really wasn't what it, you know, I thought it was going to be. I've joined a firm and now, like, maybe I'm more interested in the op stuff. And you see that shift happening, you know, sort of more at the associate level and such. What it was new then when you got into it, like how did. What. What attracted you so much? And that was a really big pivot. Because now remind me, did you kind of do the half, half thing for a while or did you make the full jump?

I sort of did a half. Half. Okay. So backing it up just a little bit. So when I first heard about legal operations, I had obviously no clue what it was. And most people didn't have any idea what it was back then.

A lot of them still don't. Right.

But yeah, and. And this was 10 years ago, so obviously it was a brand new thing for most people. And I was really fascinated by the idea that we could make changes to things that I had long seen as issues in my practice. You know, I worked at a great firm and I had a great thing going, but, you know, just generally across the board, I felt that there was an inherent conflict of interest between a law firm lawyer's obligations to their clients and their obligations to their firms. Because mainly because of the billable hour at the time, you know, that was just like, you know, it just didn't make any sense to me that I was being compensated based on how many hours I billed, because I felt that to provide the best service to my clients, I should be really efficient and not bill a lot of hours and that I should be compensated for being efficient, not for being inefficient. And that just was a problem, like in the back of my head ever since I started doing that work. It just didn't. Never really resonated with me. Why that was the way that we charged people for our services. And it was something that I, you know, thought should be fixed. And when I, you know, that was one of the main things that I was interested in solving by going over to legal operations. And, you know, it just was meaningful to me. It was something that I felt, you know, that and other parts of the profession that needed improvement were things that I felt I could make a difference in and help change. And so, you know, being one of those people who needs meaning in the work I do because I spend so much time doing it, that was more meaningful to me to, like, help change the industry than the work I was doing in the law firm. You know, client by client, it was just. I felt it was more meaningful. And so I went in house and I had a dual role. I managed litigation and legal operations. And so it was sort of an easier transition because I was a litigator. And being able to go in house and do litigation, too was sort of half of my job was in my comfort zone, and then half of the job was way outside my comfort zone until I learned the ropes and became a lot more comfortable doing what I do now. So, yeah, sort of how it all happened.

And so this is interesting. So you and I both came from the law firm side. I obviously not an attorney, you a very senior accomplished attorney. And then we both kind of went into the tech space. Obviously you went to Gap for a while, but in house legal operations, big, you know, huge companies leading big teams, definitely the strategic part of the function, but running sort of all aspects of what is traditionally legal operations with our two very different backgrounds. How do you think being a lawyer by training has helped you in the role? And has it at all hurt you in the role? Like, are there any downsides to being a lawyer in your role?

No downsides that I can think of. I do believe that you can come into this role from a lot of different angles. You can come in from with a finance background, you can come in with an IT background, you can come in with, with a sourcing background, law firm pricing background. You know, all those things are helpful and obviously you can come in with a legal background. But really once you get there, you have to learn all of that stuff and you have to spin up on all of it and sort of be a jack of all those trades. So regardless of what angle you're coming in from, you're going to be learning a lot about other aspects of the job from day one. But having the legal background has been helpful for me, especially in the vendor and law firm management area. When I am speaking with senior partners at law firms about rates and AFAs and policies and procedures and all of that, they. I have some inherent street cred because I've been in their shoes. I've been them. I have been that law firm partner negotiating with in house clients and I understand their business models and I understand their challenges and they know I understand that. And I express my empathy for what they are dealing with. And that gives you some credibility. It also gives you some credibility in your own team when you know the lawyers in your own department are expressing their challenges. And you get it because you know, you, you know what it's like to be them too. So it's helpful in those ways. It's not necessary. It's not something that you have to have, but it certainly can't hurt.

I totally agree with you. I think it's definitely helpful. I mean, I've been enough of those meetings where someone said, you're not a lawyer, you can't possibly understand the work that I do. And I think I did also similarly have that background from coming from a law firm. The benefits that you had. I knew where the bodies were Buried because I was negotiating from the other side. But the credibility and just the why are you in this room? Question. I think that just goes away when you have, you know, that. That training and that background and are part of the club. So it can definitely help you. Now, I do talk to a lot of lawyers now who have this. I'd love to hear your reaction to it. Right. The thought that I realized I went to law school and I'm practicing, and I realized this is not for me. There's not a lot of really easy, obvious, like, professional gear changes after being a lawyer, you know, within your company. And so I'd like to try legal operations. That seems like something I could do. And my response is just to, like, shake my head, like, why would you. Why would you torture yourself and go into legal office unless you're passionate about some of the things that we do? Because it's hard. It's such a hard job. And I think others look at it and go, I, you know, I'm really organized and I'm a lawyer, so I could probably do your job. Right. How do you. How do you feel about that?

I couldn't agree with you more that I think, you know, looking at a job in Legal Ops as a Plan B because you're not happy in your current job isn't likely to yield much happiness in and of itself. I think that you have to have a passion for this work like you and I do. And for me, it wasn't that Legal Ops was a plan B. It was actually the plan A that I never knew about is what it was. And I was, you know, doing fine in my other role, but I found something that I was even more passionate about, passionate about and found even more meaningful than what I was doing before. And I think that's how you have to come into this role, because it is a hard job. It is. It's not. It's no cakewalk. It's actually really hard because we are change makers and change influencers in a profession where people hate change.

Yeah. And it's lonely, right?

It can be very lonely, which is one of the brilliant things about clock, you know, where you have your people in this big community who are all going through the same things you are, and suddenly it's not lonely anymore because you have your people, but you may not find your people in your own organization.

Yeah.

You have to find them, or in some cases, you have to find to find them outside of your organization. And that's what we're here for at clock.

Yeah. Are there Any parts of your job. The actual legal ops job where you go through your day and go, thank goodness I am, I have my legal training because this is helpful to me and I couldn't do this without that. Does that happen.

Sometimes with respect to contracts and understanding provisions in contracts and understanding risks and analyzing risk associated with contracts. So for example, as you're in the CLM space and you know that one of the ways to scale a contracts program is to allow some level of self help in the business, right? And you have to categorize what contracts are. Low risk, low complexity, enough to actually consider pushing out to the business for self help and understanding the risks and having that background as a litigator to understand, you know, what the potential risks are around. Not having legal review in certain categories is one example of something that I think my legal training is helpful.

Right. That makes sense. And that's where I would normally partner with the lawyers, my stakeholders on the team to get to those analyses and those decisions.

And you can, which is why you don't have to be a lawyer to do our job because we work collaboratively with teams and we have people who can do that part of the job. And so it's not necessary, but it is helpful to have that level of understanding.

Yeah, I agree. And so I always tell folks, if you're going to hire and you can find a lawyer who has that passion, has that business acumen, you know, then you've, you've got the unicorn. There's not, I wouldn't bet that every single, you know, trained lawyer has that interest, passion, acumen, etc. So when you do find them, I think it's, it's, it's awesome and it works really well. Now this elephant in the room that I'm going to address with you, and you may not want to address this, but as you were looking for or you had some offers, right? And we are good friends by that point and you had reached out to me about these offers and asked me my opinion of, you know, which path should you take. And you're my cave and you had some great offers, all good choices to be made. And of course I was going to tell you for the cause, you've got to get the highest compensation because it matters, right, to all of us that we keep pushing the upper limits of where legal ops can go and how high the compensation can be and how high the title can be. And it takes all of us to kind of be the first movers in that. I, I know that you are doing very well. Like you got, you got the package and we're happy, you know, that I say we, like we agreed that it was the right package for you to go after. But knowing that, I mean, and, and you've maybe heard Jen and I talk about this topic. The most of the people that I know and the people are pretty transparent with me about their compensation who are getting the big numbers that I think that they should be getting at. Certainly, you know, big company, high levels of responsibility, strategic roles, big teams. They are often the people who have a J.D. in addition to now doing pure legal ops work. And the folks that are not lawyers by training are still making it into the top levels. But I don't think their compensation is quite the same. Do you think that that's true? Are you seeing that or hearing that?

And I honestly don't know, Mary. I haven't been focused on what people are earning. I know there have been a couple of surveys. We did one at clock a couple of years ago. There was another one that recently went out, I think through legal operators and I haven't really looked at that data, but I also wonder how good that data is, you know, in terms of benchmarks you mean? Yeah, like in terms of how much that's truly depicting what's happening out there. So I don't have a lot to say about, you know, who's making what out there. I do know that a lot of companies place high value on this role and they should. I think in almost every, well, at least every interview I've been in since my first legal ops job, I have said, half kiddingly to the people who were interviewing me that I would be happy to take just 10% of whatever I save you.

Oh hell, every year.

And if you pay me that, I'll be happy. So 10%, not, not of like a specific number, but of what I save you.

Oh totally.

And if that were the case, if anybody had accepted that, I'd probably be retired.

Yeah. I would be so rich on my first year.

Yeah, right. And so the companies that understand that value and the value that we're delivering out of our jobs are happy to compensate well for it. So I'm not sure if it's about having the JD or not or if it's just about the company and the people who run those departments understanding the value that this role brings.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's true. Look, it's important to me. I ask people what they make, they tell me. And so I've got like a mental database of this and you know, I want to push the envelope here. And so my, you know, I'm going to keep getting out there and making sure that exactly what you said, that it's value, that they understand the impact and that it is compensated fairly and not, not for the fact that you have a JD because you don't really need that for the role, but really for your skill set and the impact that you bring.

So yeah, I know I'm not supposed to really be asking you questions, but I'm curious if you have any other information about that. Like do you, do you think that people with jds are being better compensated out there and is there data to back that up?

I, I do think so. I do not have, you know, data that is real data other than the store individual like patterns that I'm picking up on. And, and part of it is often I think they start out as a lawyer in that company and they shift over and so it's not like they're going to a new ladder. Right.

And, and that makes sense.

So that could possibly have something to do with it.

That makes a lot of sense.

And then when you're hired in, they're like, oh, you're a jd, you're at a new company, I should put you on the lawyer ladder because you're a lawyer. So that could be part of it too. Anyway, lots to get figured out as this profession matures.

Indeed, indeed.

Other things. Let's see. Another thing that I've noticed right now is this. We're in the time of this great resignation and there's a lot of job hopping. I mean I, I changed jobs during the great resignation and a lot of others do and I've noticed there's like an excitement, explosion of opportunities for Legal ops people at all levels.

Right.

The I need someone with 10 years of experience in legal ops, good luck to you. And the I'm looking for someone right out, you know, entry level role and everything in between. It's, it is a great time to have even one year of experience under your belt in Legal Ops. Isn't.

Really is. I mean there are so many jobs out there, it's ridiculous. And that's just a testament to the evolution of our profession and the industry and the more frequent recognition of the value that this role brings to the department. So I know it probably makes you very happy to see and it certainly does me too.

Absolutely. Very, very happy to see it. And it's growing and it's, you know, it's global. I mean the, the amount of opportunities around the world. And I'm excited to bring some guests from all around the world because I don't often yet to hear kind of what's happening on the ground and what the roles look like and who's getting hired. But there's a lot. There's a lot happening, so it's cool.

Surely is. And, you know, I've. I've recently hired for a few roles in my team, and I had to go out and find those people a lot of the time. Like, it wasn't like we were just looking at all of the resumes coming in. I mean, that's obviously part of it. But, you know, to hire well in this market, you have to go out and recruit people.

You really do.

Yeah. And that's what I've been doing lately, and it's been successful, but it's certainly a challenging market to hire in right now.

And why do you think that is? Because that was always my experience. Like, I always worked with recruiters, but I ended up finding my own people a Because. And I don't know if this is the case for every legal department, but you're sharing your recruiters with the rest of legal. Right. And so they're used to knowing how to screen resumes for lawyers, paralegals, legal assistants, and then there's this, like, weird bucket of legal ops people. And that's a very different background and pool of people to be pulling from. So that might be part of it. And then also the scope of the role, you know, we talk about this all the time. It's still undefined. And you might be looking for someone who's got outside counsel experience or reporting experience or contracts experience. And, you know, people say they've done legal ops, and you can't really tell what they've done and what size company and what it really means. And so, yeah, it kind of does depend on you talking to people and who knows who and using that clock network and community. Right.

I was doing that at CGI a month ago. I was recruiting people for my intel team in addition to all of the other responsibilities that week. So it was a really helpful time to have that opportunity, and I think it paid off.

What kind of background people have you hired, I guess, in your last few roles that you've hired for?

So one person who recently joined my team is just starting her second career. She had an amazing initial career that didn't even involve legal ops at all. But she was obviously an incredibly competent professional in her former life and took a break and wanted to come back out into the work world. And, you know, she's going to be an absolute rock star. So that's one example of, you know, we're still in that phase in our evolution where we can't. There isn't just a huge stable of experienced legal ops people. Sometimes you have to go pick them from other areas and train them. Yeah. And there's a lot of great people who can do operations more generally or have been in operations in other functions who can easily translate to legal operations. And so I think people hiring out there have to think more broadly and keep an open mind.

That's exactly right.

Another one who recently got an offer from us has more of an IT background, but he was a leader in IT for his previous companies and is just a phenomenal human and worked a lot with the legal department in his role and wanted to go into a legal department. And so that's another example of somebody who'd never been in legal per se and never done legal operations per se, who's going to be a complete rock star in legal operations. So we're still bringing people in from other areas and training them up.

That's so awesome. And that's going to be great for them because they're learning from the best.

Second best. Behind you.

Mike. It has been such a pleasure to catch up with you here and to chat. I know we're sort of out of time, so I wanted to thank you for your time. Any last words you want to say to anyone?

Keep fighting the good fight. You know, we're all out there fighting for the same things and looking for the same changes. And, you know, as I pointed out at cgi, in order for us to make that happen, we have to be working together and doing. Doing this together. So let's stay in IT and keep going.

Well, thank you, Mike, for all that you do and how much time and energy you give to this cause. And we all appreciate you. So thanks so much and hope to do this again soon. Talk to you soon.

Thanks for having me, Mary. I appreciate it. Bye. Bye.