Is it really a numbers game? The myth of a big following

Hello, bonjour, bonsoir, how are you? It's Mary Shiller, also known as Mary in Paris. I am a coach, author, and course creator, and it's really my mission in life to help you to live the life you really want to live, to give yourself permission to do that And if that includes having a coaching business, then I would love to support you in having the coaching business of your dreams that provides an income and an impact that will just blow your mind. I am here with you right now. I'm just going to double-check because I am supposed to be live here on, on YouTube. So let's see if I am. It looks like I actually am. Yes, I am. And I am really excited to talk to you about this topic of, is it really a numbers game? I want to break apart some myths surrounding this whole discussion of things like growing your email list, having a big social media following, etc., etc., because in my experience now, I've been coaching people for quite a long time. Related to business. It's been about 4 years now. This is something that comes up all the time as a stumbling block, which is the size of someone's audience. So if you are joining me live, please feel free to comment. If you're watching this on the replay, again, I welcome your thoughts and comments and questions. I'm happy to answer. So as a little bit of background, I started my coaching business back in 2016. 2016, in the spring of 2016. And at the time, I really didn't know that's what I was going to do. It was a rather spur-of-the-moment decision under some circumstances that looked a little bit questionable at the time even. But I just decided to go for it even though I didn't have any coach training. I really didn't know what to offer people, so I kind of just made it up on the fly. I priced things in a way that I thought would get me to my income goals the fastest. So I kind of broke a lot of rules in the beginning, and one of the rules that I definitely broke was the rule that says you need a big audience in order to earn $100,000 a year in any business, but particularly a coaching business. My first year in business, I believe I made around $70,000, $75,000, which matched the salary that I had been earning at a job before that. So I was pretty happy about that. And even the second year, when I first— when I hit $100,000, in the third year when I did the same, I still had a very, very, very small audience. And I will talk about that in a second. But if you are watching me right now and you take one thing away from this discussion today, I would like it to be this: that the size of your audience has very, very, very, very little to do with, first of all, how much of an impact you can make. But that's a different discussion. Today we're talking about income. It has very little to do with how much money you can make. What actually makes the difference, and you probably know what I'm going to say, is the relationship that you have with people that you come into contact with. When I started my business in 2016, I had a very small email list. I know it was under 200, and most, by far most of those people were from a business that I had tried to start a few years before that fizzled, and that business had to do with making websites for people and also creating promotional videos for them. So most of the people who were on that email list had not expressed an interest in what I started to do, which was life coaching. I was not a business coach in 2016. I was doing really specific life coaching in a certain niche area. And the other people who were on my list, which maybe at that time was around 50, I'm not exactly sure, but that would be the most, were on my email list because I had been— hi Anton, nice to see you— I had been doing a personal blog for about maybe 6 months by that point, by the time I started. It was a purely personal blog. I had done it as an audio blog. So every day, people who signed up would get an audio from me in their inbox at 9:00 AM Eastern time. It was like a 5-minute audio. And it was related to the topic I ended up coaching people in. When I started it, I had absolutely no thought whatsoever that I was going to become a coach. I was really doing this daily audio blog for myself. I remember one day saying, you know, I really want to have a record of my exploration of life transformation because I had gone through a pretty big life transformation in 2014 and I wanted a way to document that. And I thought, well, maybe I'll just record a 5-minute audio every day just on my phone and I'll put it up on a blog, and that way I'll have this record of my thoughts about all of this, and I can go back and listen. And then if people want to listen to it, they can. I will share the link in appropriate Facebook groups and stuff. But I had no thought whatsoever that I was going to be a coach at that point. I was running a very small Facebook group for friends and family who were interested in the same kind of life transformation. That I was. And I think some of those people were on that list. When I say small, I mean like 15 people or maybe 20 at the most. I don't even think it was that many. So by the time I decided to start my coaching business, I didn't have what you would call a big audience. I had maybe 50 people who had expressed an interest in the topic in general. And the only other people who knew me at that point were maybe people who had interacted with me in some Facebook groups that were on the same topic. Those people knew who I was because my transformational story was a bit unique. I had been interviewed by a few people, and so I had gotten some— what, looking back— exposure through that. But I hadn't done it for any other reason other than sharing my story, thinking it might help someone, because I didn't have a business to promote or anything like that. And so I had gotten a little bit of visibility, and I had a few people who had expressed some interest in what I was talking about. But at the time, I had no idea if that was going to translate into actual earning. No clue at all. So when I launched my business in, I guess it was probably about March or April of 2016, I can't remember, I, you know, I sent out an email to my small list saying, I've now decided to become a professional coach. Basically, I mean, I said it nicer than this, but, you know, more eloquently. Here are my offers. And I had made a page with all my offers on it. It was basically 3 versions of the same offer at different price points. The lowest price was like $1,800. And I think there was one for $2,000 and then there was one for $2,400. I said, if you'd like to chat with me about any of these offers to see if this would be good for you, here's how to have a free Zoom call. And I had a link for people to sign up to talk to me. Well, lo and behold, I had a lot of interest, or at least enough interest, I should say, to generate $6,000 within my first about 10 days. Of sending that email out. And the whole first year and second year and everything, it just kept building from there. And what I learned from that was something so crucial, which I have carried with me ever since, and which is what I'm trying to convey to you now. You don't need a big audience to make good money. What you need is people who know you people who are familiar with you, people that you have some sort of relationship with that you've developed in some way who may want to take the next step to work with you. That is what you need. So there's no magic number. So I'm saying that there were probably 50 people on my list who were at least somewhat interested in the topic that I was going to be coaching in. I don't know how many of those people were actually interested in coaching But I had developed a relationship with them over those months because they heard me every single day in their headphones if they chose to listen to the episodes, which I think a lot of them did. Because I remember one day I screwed up the timing and the email didn't go out, and I got messages from people, emails saying, are you okay? I didn't get your audio today, and I was worried that something happened to you. So I know that they were listening and paying attention. But like I said, I didn't know if that would translate into business. But what I learned from that experience was that it's way more important to have good relationships with the people who are in your circle. That will take you a lot further than just building up numbers to build up numbers. That just doesn't make any sense. So if you're joining me live today, I'd love to hear any questions or comments you have on what I've said so far. I'm going to take another sip of water here in Paris. It's 6 PM, but it is still in the 90s, so it's a little warm. I do have air conditioning, thank goodness. We're surviving. I think that many coaches unfortunately see this whole discussion of audience and followers and all of that and get really intimidated by it. And this is a point that I really want to make today. And they think, gosh, if I don't have at least a few hundred followers on Instagram, or if I don't have an email list of, you know, a few hundred people, How am I ever going to make any money at this? And it's interesting because I had a discussion with another business coach. I think this was maybe in my third year of business when I had started to kind of switch over to business coaching. But I also want to be clear here that I was making $100,000+ as a life coach. Let me say that again. I was making $100,000+ as a life coach with no coach training and a teeny weeny audience by industry standards. Okay, so I don't want you to think, oh well, you just started making money because you started doing business coaching. Absolutely not. The first, uh, 3 years of my business, 2016, 2017, 2018, that was all that I was doing. And I think I started to bring in some of the business things in 2019, but I remember this very distinctly where I had put an offer out to my email list, which at the time I made this particular offer was, I think, 500 people. I can't remember exactly, but it was, it's never been, my email list has never been bigger than 1,400. I'll just say that even today it has, it isn't. So I know it was way, way, way less than 1,000 people. And I put this offer out and it was a wildly popular offer. I had no idea that that would happen, but it was wildly popular. And within— and I, and this was the funny part, was I— it was a last-minute decision to put this offer out to my email list. And I did it at a time of year when you're not supposed to do this. I think I sent it out on December 26th. And that week between Christmas and New Year's, I think it was, it was either $20,000 or $23,000 of sales that I made as a solopreneur with a small email list. And I remember another business coach was asking me about that one time, and he said, oh, you must have a very large email list. And when I told him, no, actually I don't, he was absolutely stunned. And I said, well, it doesn't really surprise me all that much because I have a really good relationship with the people on my email list. I feel like I know many of them personally, and, you know, I've developed relationships with them. And so that's really the key to me, is it's not about how many, it's how close are you to them, how well Do you know them and how well do they know you? I'll give you another example of something that I did that was a big lesson and something I won't repeat, which is earlier this year as I'm talking to you, I decided to try running some Facebook ads to grow my email list. I succeeded in growing my email list. I think I added about maybe 600 email addresses to my list, and I have not had nearly the success that I've had previously when my list was grown organically in terms of percentage of sales. I would have thought that it would have been better, but it hasn't been. And I'm not saying that that's true for everyone who runs ads, but they didn't work for me. And what has always worked for me, and this is why I'm telling you this, you don't need to spend money on ads to grow your email list. What has worked well for me and has worked well for a lot of people that I have coached over the years is finding a way to connect with people that is really fun, that is, you know, something that you can't wait to do, and do that consistently. Some of the things that have worked well to connect me with people are things like this, doing live free events. I have also taught low-cost classes. That has worked really well for me, as well as free classes. I have done audio series, and that's another really nice way to connect with people because they're literally listening to your voice in their head, so they feel a real bond with you. But those are just suggestions from my experience. You can find the way that works for you. I just really wish that this whole discussion of the size of your email list and the size of your following would really take a different tone because so many wonderful coaches are telling me that they can't get started until they have a bigger audience. As I am speaking with you, I just finished working with a client, a one-to-one client whose email list was small. It was under 50. I said, it doesn't matter. I want you to go ahead and put this offer out to them. And by doing that, she caught the attention of someone who then brought more people to her. So just because you have a small email list like that does not mean that you can't generate income, because that's exactly what happened for her. She sent it out it caught the attention of someone who was on her list. There was some nice collaboration going on there, and there you go, clients started to appear. Some people also say to me, I will never forget this one. I'll give you another example because this one was actually, I don't want to say funny, but it was just so obvious to me where this person had an opportunity and they were just completely overlooking it. So this was maybe 3 years ago or so by now, I can't remember, maybe 4. Uh, it was pre— before the pandemic, so I guess it was 2019. I was working with a client who had a very specific income goal and they had no idea how they were going to hit this target, and they had a deadline. They needed to make this money by a certain date for a specific reason. And I said, well, do you have an email list? And they said— I don't think they had an email list at this point at all. And I said, well, all right, do you have any social media following? No, I mean, I'm, I'm on Facebook, but I don't really share stuff about my business on there. Okay, well, who else is in your sphere of influence here? Who else is in your orbit? Let's look at this. And I said, have you had anyone, you know, have you worked with anyone in any capacity? And they said, oh yeah, actually I ran a small class live in my town several weeks ago and it was either like 10 or 12 people attended. And I said, okay, did they pay something? Yeah, they paid like $10 or something. $20, something like that, for this live workshop. I was like, okay, great. Did you follow up with them? Can you guess what the answer was? No, didn't follow up with them. Okay, do you have their contact information? Yes. Okay, we came up with what we felt was a great follow-up offer to those people. Now, this person said, well, isn't it weird that I haven't spoken to them since then. And this was literally like 3 months prior, so this wasn't like something they had just done that month or something. It was a while. And I'm like, you know what, it's okay. You're just gonna reach out to them individually and you're going to say, I've been thinking of you since we had our group workshop, and I have something on offer that I think might really benefit you if you would like to learn more about it. Here's how we can chat. That's what they did. They emailed all of those people who were in that group, and within— I don't know what it was, our coaching arrangement was fairly short, so it had to be pretty quickly— they had generated way more than $5,000. It was something like $7,000. I think it might have even been more than that. I know it was over the $5,000 mark. That was from doing personal outreach to people who had paid a few dollars before, they were then able to sign them up for a much more expensive and much more targeted, if you will, personalized coaching program. So what does that say about numbers? Is this really a numbers game or is it a human-to-human game? Because that's how it looks to me. To me, it looks like coaches need to connect with people as people and stop looking at them as numbers or leads or whatever. I know I have used that word in the past, and I don't anymore because I just don't like the way that whole thing sounds. It doesn't sound human, and I want us to be human. Where numbers can start to play more of a role is if you decide that you want to sell things that are lower priced. So in that case, then yes, in order to reach your income goals, you're going to have to sell more lower priced things, and having a larger audience can certainly help with that. But if you are someone who is trying to get to that $5,000 a month mark, you might be much better served doing what I just described that I had my client do about doing more personal outreach, about not being afraid to make an offer to someone and seeing what they say, because they may say yes, they may say yes. So again, I do see some people watching. If you're here, do you have any comments about what I have said? Any questions? If not, I do have one more thing to say on this topic of is it a numbers game, which is this: it's very easy for anyone who is trying to start a business online, and this applies to coaches and a lot of other people. It's very easy to get seduced— sorry to use that word, but that's the word that came to me right then— seduced by all these fancy strategies and tactics that people are trying to sell you out there. All these fancy funnels, sales funnels, all these different kinds of lead magnets. Do I hate that word? Yes, I do. As I said, I used it in the past. I don't use it anymore. You know, there are so many things being flashed in front of our faces, those of us who are interested in entrepreneurship and working for ourselves, that we can lose sight of what we're actually doing here. What we are actually doing is very simple. We are connecting with people and we are sharing what we can do to help them. That's it. Connecting with people and sharing what we can do to help them. If you have an interested person and an exciting, enticing offer, That's what makes money. That's all you need is one interested person and one offer that they like, and that's how money gets made. It's not that difficult. And what bugs me about so many of these other systems that people are trying to push at us is that they put all of these roadblocks in the way. They make people go through all of these funnel steps before they get to the actual solution. And what I'm suggesting is that instead of trying to get, you know, 1,000 people at the top of the funnel and funneling it down to, you know, 5, Why not just make personal connections with 5 people to start with? It's a lot more fun, it's a lot less time-consuming, it's a lot cheaper, and you'll get better results. I think a lot of people have forgotten that we are actual human beings who can reach out to others directly. I have done this many, many, many times. In my business where someone will have, let's say, been in a group program of mine. Uh, hi Mimi, no worries. Somebody will have been in a group program of mine and I will send them a personal note and I'll say, I'm starting a one-to-one coaching program and I thought of you, so I wanted to see if you wanted to chat with me about it. That is not difficult to do and it's not being rude or pushy or anything of the sort. It's being caring. And I think people— frankly, I am tired of being seen as just a number. And the way that I can tell that I'm just a number to someone is when I am not treated or responded to in a personal way. I'm not knocking people who have teams working with them, that's not what I'm saying. But like, for example, I joined a Facebook group recently for a free training by someone who is extremely well known in the online business space. I went to his training a few years ago. I've never bought anything from him, but he was offering this free training and I was like, oh, you know, I'll go. So there's several thousand people in this Facebook group, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out where the free training was taking place because there was no there was no schedule. It said the dates, but it didn't say the times, and it didn't say where or anything. I was like, okay, I don't understand where to even go. So on one of the posts, I just asked the question. I said, hey, I'm looking forward to this live training coming up over the next few days, but I don't see the times, and I don't see where they're happening. Are they happening in this Facebook group? And one of the team members responded to me just saying, click this link, click this link. I was like, well, what's on the other side of that link? And could you have said, oh hey, you know, sorry for any confusion, I can help you with that, here's what you do, you know? No, it was just click the link. Well, when I clicked the link I was taken into a, uh, chat in Facebook Messenger that was clearly a bot for this leader. And what was weird was I had already been in that chatbot before and never got this information. So I was like, you know, is this something I even want to be part of? Like, maybe the training is good, but I don't really feel like I'm being treated very well here. You know, it's two-word answers and chatbots. And, you know, maybe that's what is required when you have a multi-multi-million dollar business like I'm sure this person has. That's not how I want to run a business or how I want to even live as a person. It's just not what I want to do. If that's what you want to do, that's great. But you do have to start in this human-to-human way. And anyone who wants to start a coaching business, wherever you are in the journey, you can always, always, always go back to this more human-to-human side of things and forget these numbers, forget funnels, forget email list building, forget getting followers. Because my whole thing is You can have an email list of 5,000 people but not be making any money from it. You can have a following of several thousand people but not making any money if you're not connecting with those people in a great way, in a way that makes them feel important, in a way that makes them feel heard, in a way that, you know, just makes them recognize that you see them. To me, that's the most important thing. So again, if you're here live, I see a few more people have joined. Do you have any questions or comments about is this a numbers game and sort of these myths around having big, big numbers? I'm happy to answer. Hi, Mimi. I agree with you, Mary. I prefer personal contact. Being in a loving, caring community is so important. I I'm right with you, Mimi. Absolutely. Because I'm gonna just show your comment because that's a really big one for me, especially because of what we've all lived through in the past few years. It seems like we need to foster this more human contact, even if we're online. We can still, you know, most of the people that I work with in my 5K Coach Club, for example, I have not met in person. Happily, I have met a couple of people in person, which is really cool, but most I have not. And yet I feel incredibly close with these people. I feel like we know each other. And we do know each other. You know a lot about me. I know quite a bit about you as well. And so that to me is what has made my coaching business what it is. It's not the money that I've been able to earn, which has been great. It's the relationships that I have formed along the way, which is not something that I expected. That wasn't what I thought would be the thing that has made this so important for me, but that's what it is. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I feel close to you too, Mimi. I mean, I feel like if we met in person, we would just strike up a conversation and we would be off to the races, you know. And I feel that way about most of the people in my community. The— as I said a moment ago, I think the unfortunate thing is that I, I don't feel as close to people now as I once did, and I'm looking for ways to reconnect with people. It's one reason why I'm starting to do more of these live streams on YouTube and elsewhere, because I really love this way of interacting with people and feeling this connection with you even though we are across thousands of miles. That's the real key, is letting people see you, letting people hear you, and the people who want to hear more and see more will continue to show up for you. And whether you have a live event that you host that has no one show up— I've had this happen— if you've had a live event that one person showed up, I've had this happen. Just run it anyway. Run it anyway. And imagine that you are talking to all of these people, you know, that you're talking to millions of people who love you. Hi, Anton. Hey, Mary. Do you generally advise letting people get to know you for a while first along the lines of what the author of Oversubscribed mentions? Yes. Or would you reach out to someone who has maybe only seen a few of your posts if you felt they could be interested in what you offer? Based on how you can see they're struggling with something. Yes. Okay, specifically I'm talking about reaching out directly to someone on a community where I've started being active again, a private community. So that's a really great question, Anton, and I guess I would say this: I have never Um, I have never cold messaged someone, if that's kind of what you're referring to. I have only gotten in touch with people who I have had some interaction with before, and I'll tell you why I haven't ever done that. So let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, because I'm, I'm happy to revise my answer if I'm misunderstanding. But I had a really, really terrible experience one time before I became a coach. Before, before I became a coach. Um, okay, got it, Anton. So I do have it right. So this was a really— I mean, I'm still upset about this, which is weird, but this is from like 20— what year was this? 2014, 2015, I can't remember exactly. And somebody who I had been connected to in a community, in a private community, had reached out to me and said, um, hey, you and I live near one another. Maybe we ought to get together because we have a common interest, you know. And so this was when I was living in New York City, and they didn't live in New York City, but they lived a close train ride away. And so, um, I was like, oh, that could be interesting, you know. And so we had a back and forth conversation. I think we even spoke on the phone. And then at some point along the conversation, and this person made me an, a coaching offer of like $10,000. And I felt so betrayed by that because I felt like, oh my gosh, here I thought we were having a really friendly conversation and I was making plans to go visit them at their home. Up the, up the Hudson a little bit. And I was like, are you kidding me? And so from that point on, I just said to myself, there is no way I will ever do business like that. Never. That just is never going to happen. So I have always made a point of saying things like, feel free to reach out to me you know, in general. I've said to people, um, when I first started coaching, a few people had found me because I had been posting in some private communities, but not posting anything like, I think I can help you. It was like I was sharing the links to my daily audio blog. This was before I became a coach, and so some of them had gotten to know me through that. But I have never cold messaged anybody. And, you know, I'm not going to say that you shouldn't do that, Anton. If you feel called to do it, maybe it's the right thing. I'm not going to say it's right or wrong. I'm not a prescriptive person like that. I just know that for me, it's not been the right thing to do, and that's just where I land on that. So let me know, Anton, if that was useful or not. I'm happy to try again with another answer if that wasn't helpful. And one other thing— oops— I could say about that is that if, if somebody were— if I were posting in a private community, I would want to think that my posts in there were not being looked at as potential client fodder, if that makes sense. And I would want to have a feeling of safety around that. And so that's— I'm not saying that's what you would do, Anton, but anybody who's listening, you know, most groups now have rules about that sort of thing too. Some people abide by them, some people don't. But yeah, I just don't feel right about that. Uh, hi Anton. Yes, totally agree. In my last paragraph I mentioned it would— oops— it would definitely not be a paid offer but rather a free call in exchange for a testimonial. But cold outreach doesn't seem right to me. I'd much prefer to just share and engage. If someone wants to get in touch, then Great. Yeah. So even with a free call, people can be suspicious. You know, they just can be. So I, if, if you wanted to do free, well, first of all, if you're, you're in my 5K Coach Club, you can do coaching in exchange for testimonials in the 5K Coach Club. That's something that you can put, you can put an offer like that in our Facebook group and just ask people. So that's one way that you can do that, and we've had some good success like that. Um, but yeah, otherwise I would find another way that feels more correct and more— I don't know, just more caring, I guess. And I know you're a very caring person, so you'll come up with the perfect way. Um, all right, any other questions? Happy to answer. Yes, Anton, indeed, I've done that before in the club. Yes. Oh yeah, do it again, do it again, Anton. People would be happy to do that for you. Hi, Mimi. Somebody once said you should comment on people's posts and befriend them on Facebook and message them. Yeah, it doesn't feel right to me at all. Are people still teaching that? Because that's just awful to me. That is just rude, and it's not the way to build an audience of caring people who are interested in what you're saying. It's a way to alienate people. And, you know, there's outreach, and then there's just being way, way, way over the top. And that's a strategy that I would never advise anyone to do. I just don't like it. There are so many nicer ways You know, invite people to a free talk that you're giving and, you know, invite people to a free call. Put the offer out there and say, if you'd like to chat with me, here's how to sign up for a time, you know, and share your Calendly link or whatever system you use. And so there are just so many other ways. I don't know why people are still teaching or even using tactics like that. And, you know, I don't want to come across like I'm knocking these big coaches who have these big audiences and teams and things like that. But I have had experiences with coaches at that level that have not felt like I was a number. I'll give you a great example of that that is happening this evening as I'm talking to you. About 2 weeks ago, I got an email from someone whose list I'm on. I had been in this person's programs in the past. I got this email and it said, uh, it said, our program starts soon, click here to join the Facebook group. And I looked at the name of the program and I was like, I'm not in that program because I would know because that program is really expensive and I would know if I were in it. And so I wrote back to them and I just said Hey, I think I might have gotten this by a mistake, so I'm just letting you know, and you know, in case this went to the wrong group, I just want to alert you. Got a very kind message back from their team member saying, yeah, we just realized we made the error, thank you so much. The next day, the coach themselves emailed me and a few other people and said, because you were kind enough to write back and tell us we'd made a mistake, you're invited to a live group coaching call. And that's what I'm going to tonight. That was an excellent example to me of someone who— this person does extraordinarily well, okay, into the 8 figures a year range. And yet they understand that they need to treat people like people, and they've impressed that upon their team members as well, and I really appreciate that. So of course I'm going to go to this group coaching call tonight. It sounds like a lot of fun. I have no idea what's going to happen, if it's going to be a Q&A or some kind of lesson. I don't know, but I'm excited about it. Okay, any other questions I can answer? Anything else you are wondering about when it comes to this numbers game idea? I hope that from what I have said so far in this video lesson that you can see that it's not only possible to make an impact, but it's really possible to make a wonderful income with a small audience if you know how to connect with people well, which you do because you're a coach, so that's what you do. And you just treat people like real people instead of like numbers, and you really Uh, thanks, Mimi. I'm sure I will. And you know, your heart is so big and your light is so bright, as Mimi likes to say, that if you just start putting yourself forward, people will see you and hear you, and they will want to hear more, and they will want to connect more with you. So that's really what it requires. It doesn't require huge numbers, and in fact, that can be a detriment in some ways, as I've shared. It really takes you connecting with one person who is interested in what you have to offer, and that's when the sparks fly. All right, well, thanks everybody who was able to join live. It means the world to me that you tuned in. I'm so, so grateful to you. And if you're watching this on the replay, I am eternally grateful to you as well. It's always such a joy for me to share what I can to help you have a life and business that is just everything you want it to be because you deserve it. So go out and create that for yourself. If you want to reach out to me, please feel free. You can find me on my website, maryinparis.com. Everything is linked in the description box below on YouTube. And have a wonderful day or evening wherever you are in the world. Thanks so much, everybody. Bye. Thank you.