Troubled relationship? A talk about moving from conflict to calm

Thank you all for being here. I really appreciate your coming, and some of you may know me and Juliette, and some of you may not. So I'll start with a brief introduction of myself, and then I'll let Juliette speak on her own behalf. So my name is Mary Schiller, and I'm an author and Three Principles Coach. I've been working with people now for a couple of years related to the Three Principles, and and I've coached people in all different areas of life, everything from stress, dissolving stress, to helping them have better relationships, to helping them get through depression and kind of everything in between. And I was really excited to have this conversation with you today because I have teamed up with Juliet Faye, who is my co-host on a really special project that she and I are working on. And I'll let Juliet introduce herself and tell you a little bit about what we're working on together.

Okay, thank you, Mary. It's great to be co-hosting with you. So I'm Juliet Fay, and I'm based in Wales in the UK. And so my background is marketing and communications, and I recently, this year, came across Mary in March when I saw her interview that Molly Gordon did with her, and the title stood out for me. It was 'Can PTSD be changed or cured by an insight?' I was intrigued about this and watched the recording, and since that time I have been consuming a lot of materials myself about Three Principles, but also I signed up for Mary's program. And as we got to know each other, we discovered that we had some interesting things in common in terms of our experiences, which we may both touch on a bit more as the call goes on. And we have begun to work together and we're launching an enterprise called Soul Care. And the purpose of Soul Care really is to reach individuals and families who are experiencing conflict and arguments, and also to look at helping those who work in that sector, which can be quite a stressful field to work in. So yeah, back to you, Mary.

All right, thanks, Juliette, that was great. One of the reasons why I wanted to offer this talk is because I personally have gone through a relationship, more than one, that has seemed to be based on conflict, that almost seemed like the foundation of the relationship, to the point where I couldn't really see how that could ever change. I don't know if you can relate to what I mean, but if you can, please feel feel free to type a note in the chat box to us, that sometimes in a relationship you can get to a point where it just seems like there's no way out of the conflict except perhaps to make a decision to leave the relationship, if you can do that, or just walk away from the situation. And for me, that was a very distressing idea because One of the relationships I'm thinking of is my current marriage, and I really didn't want to do that. And yet there was so much conflict in this relationship that I couldn't really see the forest for the trees. It seemed like no matter what I tried to do to kind of fix things, it either made it worse or it didn't change anything. Significantly, let's put it that way. You know, I tried lots and lots of different techniques and things and, and nothing really seemed to help. And so, you know, one thing I would also like to mention is that later on in this call we're going to provide a way for you to continue this conversation with us if you'd like. And I can tell you that it really wasn't until I came across what we're talking about that things started to shift. In that relationship for me. And so it's such a— it's hard for me. I get choked up very easily, but it's hard for me to talk about this without getting choked up because I really felt like my marriage was not going to survive. There was so much stress between us and so much distance between us that it just looked impossible to me. And I tried everything I could think of to, you know, from marriage counseling to all different kinds. I bought books, I bought programs, I talked to all different kinds of experts, and I tried everything I could think of, and nothing really made a dent. And It wasn't until I discovered something pretty key, which is what we're going to talk about today, that things started to turn around. So with that as a preview, I'll let Juliette mention why this topic is important for her.

Yes, likewise. I found myself in a marriage that was just punctuated by arguments. Kind of with regularity, particularly at the weekend, I think, because, you know, you're busy during the week with all the daily sort of activities. Come the weekend, you know, it's like clockwork. And as Mary said, there was just— particularly for me being in the communications field, you know, it was just hugely frustrating to not really understand. I didn't really— couldn't really see why we were arguing. I mean, clearly it wasn't because the bin was overflowing, you know, or whatever kind of trivial thing would spark an argument. And I found it just, just, yeah, just really, really frustrating that I couldn't really get to the bottom of why we argued. And in my case, sadly, the way that I ended those arguments was leaving my marriage because we didn't, we couldn't see through it or get through it. And like Mary, even though I left my marriage, of course you won't be surprised to hear that didn't actually put an end to the arguments. But it's through what we're going to talk about today, I can see now why we couldn't stop arguing. But I couldn't see it at the time at all. And I think, you know, for a lot of us, we, you know, we go about our business, we do our jobs, we look after those we need to take care of, and there's this thing in our life that, you know, we just don't get. And as if you're on this call, I'm guessing you'll all be aware of how draining it is, how exhausting it is, you know, how you're kind of waiting for the next argument. And it starts to color everything, and I don't need to tell you it's no fun, you know. It really isn't.

Yeah, so if you are— thank you, Juliette— if you're so inclined, I'd love for you to write a comment in the chat box, you know, how— if you don't want to tell us what relationship has got you on this call today, you know, maybe you can share a little bit about kind of the impact that it's having on you to have a relationship in your life that is conflicted and, and very problematic. I know for me, no matter what I was doing during the day, this situation with my husband, my current husband at the time, was constantly on my mind. You know, I would go to work, but I would still be in the back of my mind always thinking about it. You know, I had times where, where I live, I live at the top of a hill and I walk up this hill from the subway to get home. And I would have this horrible feeling inside when I'd be walking up that hill. Like it was literally like the weight of New York City was on my shoulders. Like, I don't want to go into that apartment. I can't face this anymore. And it was almost debilitating, to be frank. I felt like it was just permeating every single aspect of my life. I couldn't make a good decision about my future. Hi, Monica. Thank you for joining. I'm going to just mute you real quick, but I'll unmute people in just a moment. I felt like I couldn't focus on really much of anything. My life just seemed completely consumed by these problems, and I couldn't, as a result, I couldn't, how do I even say this? I felt like my whole life was stalled, essentially. I don't know if that makes sense. To you, Juliette, or to other people here, but it was like I was just treading water and not going anywhere, and no matter which way I flailed my arms around, nothing was changing. And then I came upon something very new, which many of you on this call are probably familiar with. Which is called The Three Principles. And without going into a lot of detail about that specifically, I'll tell you what was a game changer for me, which was I saw that the things that I thought my husband was doing or not doing that were causing problems in our relationship, because constantly in my mind I wanted him to fix something about himself. Wanted something he was doing to change, or I wanted him to stop doing other things, or, you know, I looked to him as the source of this feeling of conflict that I had. And what I saw very clearly over time was that in actual fact, the way that I felt inside, the anger and frustration and all of that, was actually just coming from within me. It had absolutely nothing to do with him. And I'm going to pause there because that was such a huge revelation that it was just like— it started to change everything about the way I saw us interacting. So I'm going to throw it to you, Juliette, if you have something to say.

Yes, I can absolutely relate to that, wanting behaviour to change or circumstances to change. And really, in kind of looking around, trying to grasp some explanation or reason for the arguments, I Yes, I think it's very common that you do feel you are reacting to what you're presented with. You know, can be minor things, can be major things, but, you know, we'll all do it. We'll kind of feel, oh, you know, we look for factors from the sort of, they say, from the small, kind of, I'm tired, I've had a bad night's sleep, I've had a heavy day at work, to the major, you know, "You never do," "He never does," "He always does," you know, these sorts of things. And while you feel that they are the cause, you realize when you start to look from the point of view of this understanding that it puts you in a very powerless place where you are at the mercy of whatever is happening out there, whatever your partner or the person that you're in conflict with is doing, can— if you believe that all of that, all your feelings are coming from out there, then your day is completely directed by, not by you, but by everything else. And what you were saying, Mary, about that, you know, walking at home and anticipating You know, that starts to point to the fact very clearly that the person or the situation we think is causing the problem isn't actually there. So, you know, when you see this realization, when you see that the feelings that are bubbling up in you from despair— in my case, I used to get very, very angry, real rage— when you start to see that they are coming from inside you, not from what's out there, not only, as you said, Mary, does your kind of view of things start to change, but you see, you start to see the other person differently as well. Because equally for them, whatever they're doing, saying, however they're behaving, or if they're walking away, or if they're engaging in an argument, whatever's going on, they likewise are reacting to what's in their own head.

But it's funny because I did not see that at all. That was not apparent to me at all. I walked through my day with this idea that unless he did something different, you know, and unless our relationship changed, I was not going to be happy. And I felt the presence of my marriage all day long, not putting that piece together though, that he wasn't actually like sitting next to me at work, or like you said, he wasn't walking next to me as I was going up the hill. Towards our home, I didn't connect those dots. That was not at all obvious to me. It really looked to me like his behavior and our situation and our marriage and la la la la la, that all of that was the cause of my discomfort and my anger I got mad a lot too. And it just was not apparent to me that that wasn't true. And that's what I find so interesting now, because now it seems so obviously true to me, but it did not look that way at the time. Not at all. And what's really interesting to me now is that You know, you might think, well, if you're looking back on that period now, which for us was quite lengthy, you know, we— our marriage hit some bumps. We've been together, we've been married for 19 years, we've been together for 20. Our marriage started to hit some bumps very early on, probably about 3 years in, and then it kind of slowly progressed, and around Oh, 2005, '06, things started to get pretty rocky. And then we ended up separating for a while, 2011, 2012. And a lot of things really got ugly. I mean, things got very ugly. And it just continued to seem like I was powerless, like you said, that there was something going on that was not in my control. And I couldn't stop it. It felt like a steamroller or something, just like we were just, it was inevitable that we were going to get divorced. And that was just it. You know, and I was kind of grabbing onto anything I could grab onto to try to stop that from happening. And by the way, this doesn't just apply to marriage, what we're talking about. It really applies across the board with conflicted relationships. And when I finally saw what you and I are talking about, which was that actually nothing he was doing was having any effect on me, it was that I was having thoughts that I was kind of paying attention to, that that's what was creating this feeling of conflict. All of a sudden I felt completely liberated and a sense of— I hesitate to use the word power, but that is kind of what it felt like. It felt like I was suddenly infused with power again. I did not feel powerless anymore in the face of this situation.

Yes. You talking about being infused with power, it is, it is, there is a sense of that because I don't know how many of you on the call will relate to this, I remember so clearly that, you know, in the aftermath of an argument when I was feeling dreadful, I desperately wanted to talk about it. Mary's laughing.

I'm laughing out of recognition. And I'll bet you there are other people, even though they're muted, they're laughing too. You want to talk it out, right?

Absolutely. And it— and I can remember clearly the feeling inside of just feeling horrible and feeling that, you know, it wouldn't— everything wasn't okay and it wouldn't be okay unless we could sort this out. And you won't be surprised to hear that trying to sort it out usually led to more arguments, or it just, it didn't really help. And I think it goes back to this idea that I can see, looking back at myself, that my— I believed that my well-being rested on me having a harmonious relationship. So if it wasn't harmonious, then I wasn't okay. Yeah. And that really bothered me. I mean, really, really bothered me. Like Mary was saying, you know, it starts kind of taking over your thoughts and coloring your day-to-day living. But also, ironically, the other thing that I wanted to raise is that during those arguments, you know, I was behaving in a way that wasn't who I wanted to be.

Oh yeah.

And so on the one hand, you know, there's this fear that this kind of— my well-being is under threat, because that's how it looked. And then there's me behaving in a way that, you know, it wasn't really designed to kind of, you know, bring someone closer and make things, you know, harmonious. And as Mary said, you know, when you start to see that your well-being is not your relationship, it doesn't come from your relationship, it doesn't, and it can't actually be harmed by your relationship. And I don't say that lightly. Once you realize that your well-being is completely separate from whatever interactions are going on with the person, whether it's a partner or a member of your extended family. As Mary said, you sort of go from this position of being, you know, battered and tossed about by the ups and downs of those interactions to it just calming everything down and things not mattering so much.

I have written about this before, that I almost ended my marriage because I wanted to talk about everything, you know, and it was almost like I could, I could predict exactly how those conversations would go, you know. I would start from a place of extreme frustration and And I would hammer and hammer and hammer away at whatever I thought the issue happened to be. And I remember Jeff saying a couple of times, like, I don't want to talk about this now. But I didn't let it go. I couldn't. I felt like I couldn't let it go because it seemed like you just said, like, if I didn't get this thing sorted out, that I wasn't all right. And I just was completely upside down about the whole thing. I was just not stable. Seeing that, that none of it had anything to do with the way that I felt, or like you said, had any real effect on my well-being. And I'd like to say one more thing, and then if it's all right, I'd like to open it up for some questions or comments that people have, is that what we're talking about can work and help even if it's only you that starts to see things from this vantage point. In the beginning, Jeff had no idea really what I was seeing, and I wasn't able to communicate it very well to him, but I could see it in myself, and my behavior as a result started to change. I started to calm down faster, I started to not talk so much, which was helpful. And very gradually, it took a while, and we still have our bumps. I don't want to say everything's perfect, whatever that means, but the tension level in our household started to drop precipitously, and it was so noticeable. It was unbelievable because it was very high, just the feeling in the room was very, very hot a lot of the time, and it just over time started to cool off so that I felt like we could actually have a rational conversation and not coming from that place of frustration so much of the time. But that was before Jeff had any real understanding of what we're talking about. It was really just because I saw it can have a tremendous benefit. So I would love to open it up to questions or comments, anything that you'd like to offer. So if you want to type a note in the chat box or raise your hand, I can unmute you. If you would like to ask something. Either way, typing or speaking, just let us know. I'll give you a second. Anybody? Everyone's quietly absorbing what we're saying. Okay, Helen says, "It may have cooled the tension, but do you feel love and connection?" What a great question, Helen. You know, it's interesting. I never actually thought about it like this, but I would say that what I realized was that we always had been connected. I just hadn't seen it. So something that had looked really broken and unfixable to me for so long, it started to— that started to look like a mirage that I had just been looking at and believing. And I started to realize that anything that made it look like we weren't connected just really wasn't true. So in contrast, for example, to other approaches you might say to conflict between people, we didn't have to do anything specific to quote unquote rebuild a connection. That connection had always been there. It just was obscured. By a misperception and a misunderstanding of what was really generating all these feelings we were having. So does that answer your question? That probably sounded a bit strange, I don't know, but Helen, let me know if you want me to follow up on something there. Kamika: I've been doing a lot of reading about the Three Principles lately, read several authors' books, but I'm still not getting it. On more than an intellectual level? What am I missing? Do you want to take that one, Juliette, or it's up to you?

Yeah, hi Kamika, thank you for putting that question forward. I think it's something Mary and I, Mary in particular, we hear quite a lot, and I must recommend Mary's done a great recording on that very question. I'm sure if you message her, she'll send you a link to it. Yeah, it's on YouTube. And I think you've probably, in your reading, you know, you've heard people talk about it being a realization that comes, you know, from, from the heart. And it's one of those slightly kind of curious things that the more we try and sort of grab it with our kind of analytical minds, the more elusive it can feel. So in terms of what you're missing, they might sound a bit counterintuitive, but one of the best things you can do is just sort of relax in your thinking and actually not worry about whatever you're thinking or feeling at any given time. Because it tends to be the worry and the judgments and the opinions and the criticism that forms around our thoughts or our emotions that actually, that's what actually kind of tends to get us into trouble and get us tangled up. And as Mary was talking about the heat in that, in her house, you can feel that heat in your own brain and you can feel the thoughts speeding up, really racing, And, you know, actually there's probably no thought that's ever come into any of our heads that hasn't come into everybody else's head at some point. You know, there isn't really any thought that you need to worry about because they all— if we don't worry about them, they will pass on through. And I know that there are certain areas in my life where I really didn't believe that was true. It's like, yeah, thoughts are about that past, but not about this. But I can tell you, Kamika, that if you can trust that they'll pass and you cannot worry about them, you will begin to settle down. And it's from that place of being a bit settled down that new thinking emerges. And the only way— I'm not going to convince you of this by telling you— The only way that you can experience that is to almost experiment for yourself about this not worrying about what you're thinking about. I don't know what you want to add on that, Mary.

Yeah, and not worrying that you're not getting it, you know, because ultimately What we're talking about is something that is innate. So there's no way for you to not get it because it's how you're already working as a human being. It's not like we're trying to teach you something you don't already know. You know, I think Sydney Banks said, you know, we have the greatest job in the world as we wake people up. We tap them on the shoulder and we wake them up. And that's kind of what it feels like to me, is that it's just a gentle realization that for some people can happen faster than others, but it doesn't matter in the end because it's something that's already at work in you. And so it's nothing to be concerned about if you feel like you're not seeing it the way that you want to, because that will— if you keep looking in this direction towards who you really are, it will start to become much more apparent. It's just inevitable. I don't know anybody in the 2 years I've been talking to people, I don't know anyone who has not experienced a shift in, in their understanding. It just, it's almost like it's once you start this Once you wake up a little, it just kind of is inevitable that you evolve. Does that make sense?

It did to me. Shirley's put a nice comment there in the stream. Thank you for that, Shirley, saying, um, getting the 3 Ps is a process of osmosis. The more you read, listen, participate in conversations about it, the more it seems to absorb into your being. Trust me, an intellectual understanding was me for a long time.

Yeah, and you know what's kind of cool is that in the context of a relationship, I've noticed that, you know, now that my husband is sort of in this conversation too, he, he started to change even with just a little glimpse of the conversation and a little bit of understanding. It started to make a difference in his behavior. So I think sometimes we have this idea in our heads that, you know, there's going to be some kind of earthquake or something and we're going to wake up one day and everything is going to look totally different because we have this understanding and And it actually may be making more of an impact on you than you can see, if that makes sense. A lot of it is invisible. And I'll give you a really cool way of thinking about this. So I went to a training in February with George and Linda Pransky and Barbara Patterson. And one of the things that they were talking about was how we've been accustomed to looking at change on a horizontal scale. So we look at sort of the outer things as a gauge of how well we're understanding these principles. And he says it's actually not about that. It's a vertical line that we're on. Like, are we a little bit more conscious of what's going on? You know, are we, are we seeing more frequently that Oh gosh, it's not Jeff's inability to clean the bathroom that's causing me frustration right now. It's actually a momentary thought that I'm having. Are we seeing that more and more of the time? And that's been very helpful to me because it showed me that circumstances may or may not change. That's not really up to me. It's not up to you either. But my experience of what's going on can change a lot. And sometimes it can be incremental and very hard to see, but it's still having an impact.

I'd like to just come in and add something to the conversation as well in terms of when we're having an argument, maybe caught up in that very intense, speeded-up thinking, but actually in between times— and Mary's touched on this— of, you know, when you're not actually in the argument, but when you're perhaps anticipating the next one or recovering from the last one, it can be really helpful to notice the thinking that is going on in your mind. And I I say this because as Mary was talking, it brought to mind a conversation I was having with a friend. And during the conversation, the words "proper marriage" came out. And we both sort of paused and just, you know, it tripped us up a bit. And we kind of realized that there's an awful lot of thinking around what a relationship should look like. And for me personally, having, you know, left my marriage, trying to work that out at an intellectual level has been very painful and very difficult. You know, what's it all supposed to look like now? But going back to your point, Helen, about connection and love, I know for myself something that has started to happen is that the you know, the connection and love that was always there underneath, if you like, and was there obviously at the beginning of my marriage. That has surfaced and is now much more present than the hurt and pain and conflict that, you know, was very intense and went on for years, and which I see myself as the main cause of, or certainly saw myself as the cause of. Back then. And so you, when you realize that all our ideas about, you know, what a relationship should look like are all basically more thinking, you know, there is no model of a relationship that we can go to and say, "Ah, right, okay, we should be this and we've got to adjust that and change this and be this." And so I think for people who are, you know, maybe not sure whether they are going to be staying in this relationship or not, you know, being— once you start realizing that it's just about the space you're in right now, that is very, very powerful. Because we can get very sidetracked by, you know, wanting to know where we are and is this working, is this not working. And it's back to the point we were saying earlier about wanting to talk it out, you know, that is all a lot of thinking which exhausts us, and certainly in my case, and is painful. It's very, very painful. And when you start to see that both you and the other person, you know, are okay, it's like that's, that's a constant underneath all this stuff going on. And, and really, to Kamika's point about getting this and seeing it, it's, it's when you start to settle down. I can see the people in my family in a much more— a sense of who they really are is, is much stronger now, probably than it was when I was in the marriage, strangely.

Well, that, uh, that reminds me of something that I think is really interesting to talk about, which is a lot of times people are in a conflicted relationship that doesn't exist anymore, you know, but they're still living with that feeling of conflict. Either, like in your case, the marriage ended, somebody's passed away, maybe you don't see them anymore, whatever it is. And I know for myself, and I'd love for you to talk about this a bit more if you'd like to, Juliette, is I can look at relationships that I'm no longer actively in that were conflicted, and I see them very differently now. I don't have— I used to have a sense of regret over things, and I— it's not like I'm perfect or anything like that, and I'm looking back and saying, oh, you know, I didn't make any mistakes, but I can see the source of those mistakes was I had some thought at the time that looked right, and I acted on that, and so did the other person.

Yeah. Yes. Very, yeah, very much this topic Mary and I have talked about quite, quite a lot. And one of my favorite sayings actually is, "Seemed like a good idea at the time." Right, because that's all we're ever operating on. And it can— it sounds flippant, but when you realize that that is all we can ever do is You know, thoughts come into our mind and they either— we either kind of let them pass on by or we kind of grab onto them and we act on them. And not only is that what we're doing, but that's what everybody's doing. And when you see what the other person's behavior and words— when you realize that that's all they're doing, you know, they are responding to what is in their head in that moment. It opens up a space for seeing things differently, and it opens up a space for compassion, particularly for yourself. In my case, that kind of came together, you know, compassion for myself and for the other person. And it does, because, you know, the alternative is, is to carry shame or guilt or regret around with you for the rest of your life.

Yeah. And when you start to see this clearly, you start to see how unnecessary that is. You know, it's not a badge of honor or something. You know, it's just, it's not obligatory to have those kinds of feelings.

Thank you.

What other questions do people have? I'd love to to see if we can answer a few more. You know, I can't say that I don't wish I had found out about this sooner. I would have saved myself a lot of years of suffering if I had known this. But at the same time, I'm not looking back on that period with any sense of regret like we were just talking about. It doesn't look like that to me. It looks like I was doing the best I could with what I understood at the time, and so was Jeff. And even just that simple, relatively simple realization has made a huge difference. For us. Because, you know, a lot of times you can kind of resolve a conflict with someone, but there's leftover stuff, you know, that people kind of throw into each other's faces and things like that. There's really none of that. There's none of it. Most of it is so— is forgotten, you know, because I can see that a lot of things were were creations of my own thinking anyway. They weren't real. So it's easy to just kind of go, oh, whatever, you know, I don't have to worry about that so much. And I really— I'd like to reiterate the point that I made a few minutes ago, which is that because for me, if there's one thing that you walk away with today, it would be that if you're experiencing a relationship that is filled with conflict, I just want you to know that if you have an understanding of what's really happening according to what we've been talking about, that has the power to transform things. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship will stay together or whatever. That's not what I mean. You know, 'cause Jeff and I just happened to stay together, but we might have made a decision to not be together. But the whole experience of your relationship will change. It's just inevitable. And it really only takes one person, which is you really, to help that to happen. It doesn't mean that the person, the other person, needs to do anything differently, say anything differently, be a different person. It's just not a requirement like I used to think it was. I think one of the reasons why relationships almost seem to be an exception to the principles is I know Michael Neal has said, you know, everything operates under the principles except for money and my marriage. You know, there are certain things that look like they are affecting us from the outside, and a relationship looks that way because we're interacting with another person. But over and over again, it's been proven to me with this that that's just not the way it is. It's never what the other person is doing or saying. It's always whatever happens to be going through my own mind at the time. And it's fun to kind of experiment with that. You know, like one of the things that I'm writing a new book, and one of the things I mentioned in there is I started noticing like some days Jeff would come home from work and he'd really be complaining and it would drive me insane. And other days he'd come home, complain about work, and I would think, oh, how awful, you know. And I started wondering, well, hey, why is that? Like, he's doing the same thing, but I'm having a completely different experience. So it's interesting to just notice what's going on in yourself. So I'm going to make one more pause here in case someone has another question, and then if it's all right with you, we would like to share something that we have on offer that we, we hope might be very useful to you or to other people in your life who could benefit. So I'll just give it a few seconds here to see if there's any other comments or questions that people have. All right, I'll keep an eye on the chat. Juliette, would you like to share a little bit and I can put this up on the screen? Can you see that?

There we are. Yeah. Can everybody see that?

I hope so.

Yeah, can you just give us a little nod in the chat if everyone can see the screen?

I can't see the chat anymore, so I'm going to rely on you, Juliette.

Yeah, I've got the chat screen up. You can just type in the chat if you can see this shared screen. Yeah, thanks Shirley. She can see it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay, so I'm going to move that over there. So Mary and I have developed a program to basically look at this understanding in terms of relationships a little bit deeper in a small group, and all the details are on the website, which Mary's going to give you a link to. But it's really— I know I know from my own conversations with Mary, and some of you on the call may also have experienced this, is that when you take an area like this, and you may find even today after the call, it's not unusual for people to be going about their business and for there to be just a sort of very quiet shift in your understanding. And Mary in particular, with her work, has found that these sort of fairly intensive short programs can have a profound impact on people's experience of life. And Mary and I have come together to do this because I'm sure you know some of our background, but we very much feel we We've been on different sides of the sort of conflict in families and had very different outcomes, if you like. And it's an area where, yeah, I guess we both wish we'd come across it a bit earlier.

They all have me, as they say.

Yeah, but we'd really like to help people perhaps see, you know, where this conflict is actually coming from, and in that way have more choice over where you go next.

Here is the website address. Soul Care is our joint venture that Juliette and I are in, and it's totally focused on ending family conflict and also helping people who work with others in that field. So if you're interested in learning more about the program, I can type in— you can type it in the chat box, maybe Juliette too. It's soulcare.org. Calm, and it's a 2-week class. It starts next Wednesday the 21st. We'll have 3 calls like this one, except they will be— everybody will be on camera and, and speaking. So there'll be 3 live calls during the 2 weeks that will be recorded, and they will take place at the same time. And we'll also have a private Facebook group I will— we will very happily answer any questions you have. You can email Juliette, I put your name there, at solcare.org, or visit solcare.org/calm, and you'll get some more information about the program.

Just wanted to add in as well, although it says there that the live calls will be recorded, they are only recorded for the participants on that program. They wouldn't be publicly at all. So it is a safe space in which to look at this understanding. The Facebook group likewise will be secret and closed, and it's only people on the program. And so what we're trying to create, as I say, is a space where people can explore, feel safe, and have access to us, obviously, in the Facebook group, but it wouldn't be shared outside.

No, and in fact, the group on Facebook is marked secret, meaning nobody can even see see that it exists. So nobody would know that you were there except for us. And, you know, I— a lot of obviously what we'll talk about in the program relates to this understanding of these principles because that's about foundation of everything that we do. And what's so interesting to me is how that understanding starts to permeate every aspect of life. You know, it's something that has been such an incredibly positive thing for me in everything that I'm doing. And even, you know, I hate to even say this, but, you know, if you had told me that I would be, you know, running a program like this a couple of years ago about ending conflict in relationships, I would have said you were kind of nuts because I thought I— that would have been the last thing that I would have thought I knew anything about. But it wasn't— it didn't take much for me to understand what was really happening under the surface of that relationship. And now I'm just very, very excited to be able to help other people who are facing something similar, whether it's with a spouse or a child, parent, friend, you know, work situation, whatever it can be. I'm just thrilled to be able to talk with you about it. Does anybody else have any questions or comments? Anything at all?

If you want to share anything that's occurred to you during this call or anything that you've seen, that would be great.

That would be a nice way to kind of close things out. So feel free. We've really appreciated your presence here.

Can you see that, Mary?

Yes, but I can't see— oh, Monica has a question. All right. Let me— okay, thank you, Helen. I'm gonna unmute you. I'm unmuting you, Monica, so go ahead.

Okay, I hope it works.

Can you hear me? Yes, I can.

Okay, I really appreciated you mentioning the vertical dimension that George Pransky spoke on. I mean, you don't have to talk about it now, but I think that might be the clue that I'm gonna pay attention to where things change don't come right away. You just sort of stay in there, and I think maybe that's how maybe things can change because it's a vertical dimension, not horizontal. That's just— so I appreciated your talk. Thank you.

Thank you, Monica. Yeah, I think that if we're talking especially about relationships, you know, we can have an idea in our heads about how something is supposed to look, you know, but while we're kind of caught up in that illusion, we're missing what's really happening in our own understanding and our own level of understanding and consciousness. Thank you, Kamika. Appreciate that.

Thank you, Kamika.

Thank you.

Sure. Anybody else have a question or comment while we summarize? Well, I will say that I would love to see you join us in the program that starts next week because I know it's going to be a lovely experience. I've known Juliette now for a few months and have just thoroughly enjoyed my, my work with her, and she's just such a lovely presence, as you could tell from this call, and is very, very grounded in this understanding and particularly in this area of relationships. I feel very privileged to be working with her, and it would just be an absolute joy to have you join us for those conversations.

Yeah, thank you, Mary, and, um, and thank you all for joining us on this call. Um, I, I'm sure you, uh, get the sense that it's an area that Mary and I both feel very privileged to be working in and where we feel that we can make a big difference. Because I guess we both feel, you know, if it can help our situations, kind of, yeah, pretty much anyone.

That's a very precise way, concise way of putting it. Thank you, Essie. I'm glad to hear that you're interested. I really do feel that way. I really feel like in my own case, if it can help me to disentangle myself from that massive spider web that I was in around my marriage, and it did it fairly quickly, then I know it can help anybody. I really do. I really do. Thank you for being here, Shirley.

Yeah, thank you for the comments as well. All right, see you again.

Yes, hopefully we'll see you again, and look for some more information. And again, it's solcare.org/calm for the program information. Thank you so much, everybody. We'll sign off. Adios.