Marilyn Wechter: Staying Sane While Staying Home (Season 2 Episode 4)

If you can in essence say, "I don't know where this is going," and acknowledge that this is really frightening, but have a deep sense that we will come out of it. Again, I don't know what the next door is going to look like, but I do have some faith in my—our ability to weather adversity. That's resilience. Welcome to Take the Long View with Matt Hall.

Matt Hall. As you know, this is a podcast to help reframe the way you think about money, emotion, behavior, and time, helping you take a longer view to put the odds of long-term success on your side. We're joined by repeat guest Marilyn Wachter. I call her my Mr. Miyagi, though she does not know who Mr. Miyagi is. Let's talk about Marilyn's background just for a second, but Her full bio will be in the show notes. Marilyn is a licensed clinical social worker since the early '90s. She has a private practice for 40 years, Marilyn, 40 years, and has been working with individuals, couples, and families. She supervises psychotherapists and consults for agencies and schools. Also, one interesting thing that I don't think I've mentioned in past backgrounds is back in Marilyn's early days, she worked as a production assistant for Children's Television Workshop in New York City, conducting research into children's learning patterns to be implemented into, at that time, the new program Sesame Street. Marilyn participates in study groups with peers and senior colleagues and maintains memberships and leadership positions in numerous professional organizations. She is the kind of person you want in your world when it is full of uncertainty and isolation, which is what our current predicament finds us full of now. Marilyn, welcome back. Thanks very much.

Good to be with you.

So let's talk about first, how come— have you not watched Karate Kid? Do you not know who Mr. Miyagi is yet?

I know a little bit because you shamed me into learning about who Mr. Miyagi is.

Well, you know, now that you have plenty of time on your hands— well, I'm not saying you have plenty of time. You may be busier than ever. But now that there is ample time at home to watch television, I recommend going back and watching the great Mr. Miyagi teach Daniel-san. Then you'll know my, uh, comparison. Okay. But it's a, it's a comparison of respect. Um, most of what people hear from investment firms and my professional life, I am the lead person in an investment management or wealth management firm. Most of the communications focus on one, how no one could have predicted this. Uh, which is so true. No one could have predicted this. Um, I don't remember anything in my 46 years happening quite like this, meaning Corona, COVID-19. The amount of time it normally takes for the markets to recover following other dramatic drops in the stock market is another theme that people hear from investment or money firms. And then the third piece I seem to hear everyone saying is like, what what the experts foresee happening next, what this means, and what big action you could take. I didn't want to do any of those things because I feel like you can get those things everywhere. And in fact, we're going to do our own version of that in our firm's newsletter. But I wanted to spend time with you, Marilyn, focusing our attention on the kinds of things people won't hear. And it's really about how to deal with feelings, emotions, and behavior during this crazy period. I mean, massive uncertainty, the highest level of isolation I think we've, we've had, at least in my lifetime. And I feel like this period requires a level of mental and emotional resilience that for a lot of people maybe hasn't been tested before. What are your thoughts?

Well, somebody— I heard somebody say that 'When one door closes, another door opens, but the hallway is hell.' So I think we're in a position basically where life as we knew it is no longer, and it's doubtful we'll go back to that. Some new balance will emerge, but we don't know what it is yet. And so we're in this hellish in-between where we don't know, and human beings deal with things by trying to make meaning out of them. So we listen to all the experts telling us, by May we'll know something, or this is what we should do, or wash our hands. All good, but we're hungry for it because it's our attempt to make meaning and make something known. The definition of trauma is too much over too short a period of time and a complete lack of external structure. So we don't have any external structure right now that we can hang our hopes on or our beliefs on. So one of the reasons why I think it's useful to talk is we have to focus on what we can do. And what we can do is create internal structure. And I think that's the goal of this kind of talking and of people learning how to fall back on what's resilient within them.

Mm. You have talked to me in the past about this idea of having soft knees. Yep. And I've been thinking a lot about that recently. Can you explain to our audience what that analogy is really about?

Sure. The analogy that— the metaphor we've used has been a building and some of the very tall buildings which have some sway in it. The more flexible we can be, the more resilient we are. If we're brittle, we break. And so again, this is not the time for rigid rules, but it is the time for structure. This isn't the time to be really hard on yourself. It is the time to be compassionate with yourself. All of those things create resilience. If your feeling is one that it has to be a certain way and the world is no longer that way, it's hard to be resilient and you crumble. If you can in essence say, "I don't know where this is going," and acknowledge that this is really frightening, but have a deep sense that we will come out of it. Again, I don't know what the next door is going to look like, but I do have some faith in my— our ability to weather adversity.

That's resilience. So the question isn't how sturdy maybe are you, or the question is how soft are your knees? How much can you give and sway? Yeah.

And I think, you know, to that end, one of the things we talked about is to really think about what you're grateful for. That probably for most of your audience, we have roofs over our head, we have food, We have connections. And, you know, often in daily lives, we don't always stop to think, "I'm grateful for that." Now is really a time to think about what it is you're grateful for, what connections you have that matter, what position you're in, and then to start thinking about, "What can I also do for others?" Because the reality is, doing things for other people also feels good, and it's a way of feeling agency, that you can do something in a period of time where we all feel so helpless. So whether that means— think in your community, and are there people that you interface with who you know are really hurting? If you're able, pay them what you would normally pay them. Think about ways that you can look out for other people in your neighborhood who might be more vulnerable than you are. But the act of giving, which always feels good, is even more important right now, both for you and for others.

Yeah, there is a certain level of powerlessness to the current situation. Yes. I've been thinking a lot about how you can create some sense of power, control, for yourself. And things like gratitude, people are always talking about, like, you practice gratitude and meditate and think about gratitude. And it's so easy to dismiss. And yet when you do it and can form a habit around it, it does make an impact. It really does. I think sometimes people blow this stuff off as sort of soft or goofy or too Zen or whatever, but there really is massive value to changing the channel in your head for a while. And that leads me to what the media and social media are capable of doing. And I'm going to use this language, but to us right now, I feel like for the relationships I have that spend a lot of time sinking into the funk of the news, they have a hard time coming back out. And when they talk with me, I don't know that they want to come back out. What are your thoughts about the sort of— it feels to me almost like a sinkhole or the quicksand, like it feels like you go in there and then you have a hard time coming back out. And the media gets paid by having eyeballs. And so some of the sensationalism that happens doesn't feel like it's working in our best interests. What are your thoughts around what people can do to sort of help themselves with the nonstop exposure to the media, both like the traditional media and the, you know, social media is every bit as influential, if not more, than it's ever been?

I think it becomes essential to limit what one takes in. Again, if you think about overstimulation, it's too much coming in in a period and you can't process it. So limit your news intake, limit your social media, Read, read a reputable paper in the morning. Watch BBC News. For those of you in, in the Midwest, it's on at 5:30, Channel 9. It's BBC World News. It is non-sensationalized. It's good information. Watch The NewsHour on PBS, which airs here at 6 o'clock. Again, non-sensationalized. If you can, watch it not in real time so you can fast forward through pieces that are going to be traumatic. But take control over your media intake. Don't just be assaulted by it. You know, again, one of the things we can all do is to practice control in the areas we have control. And one of the things we can control is what we expose ourselves to.

So do that. In a sense, it's, uh, you know, in my world, people think in terms of a budget. It's like setting a budget or a limit around your media exposure. And we all have the ability now through our devices to set limits and screen time limits and app limits. But in some ways, I think no matter which channel you choose of the traditional news channels, you know, they're all working ultimately to get more eyeballs. And because the eyeballs equate to advertising dollars, and it really is hard to find an impartial and neutral or slightly positive news source. So I like the idea of whatever you're exposing yourself to, to set some limit or boundary on a daily basis so you don't sort of find yourself sucked too far in.

Well, one of the other things to say about newspapers is, again, you can control what you read and the pace with which you read it. Mm-hmm. So if you work on the principle, again, of trauma is too much over too short a period of time, so you can't digest it, Think about slowing intake so you're in control of the pace at which it comes in, as opposed to be bombarded by it. The more we have a sense of agency in this, the more we can feel some degree of what we can control.

Well, and technology offers us something that is, if you change your perspective, is a real advantage in this time period. I mean, what would we do if we lived in an era where we experienced this same sort of quarantine, but we couldn't connect virtually like we are now? People on my team, every day we've started the day with a Zoom meeting and ended the day with a Zoom meeting. And some people have said, I feel more connected to you all than ever. Maybe not in the physical sense, but we're sharing in ways that just wouldn't have been possible without the technology that exists. So what are your thoughts about how technology can, can make us— make this experience easier?

Well, as you said, it, it eases the isolation. I think again people need to keep in mind the difference between being physically distant but not emotionally distant. I think Zoom and Doxy and Hangout, all of these platforms have been a lifesaver for lots of us because there's something about the visual of seeing people that at least makes you feel not as isolated. So we've been having happy hours with friends, we have been doing video phone calls, so it aids in not feeling quite as isolated. So, you know, again, I think one of the really hard things is it reinforces the divide between the haves and the have-nots. So here we are with computers. Our kids have computers, our kids have iPads, they have connectivity, they have learning, they have things to stave off the isolation. We have to worry about the families and the people that don't have technology, that can't afford technology, and how isolated they're becoming as well. So I think for those of us who have it, it really brings in some comfort in the middle of a very distracting and distressing time.

One of my hopes is that the residue of this experience will be a greater sense of community. I can tell you when I've taken my dog for a walk and I see a neighbor, I'm so much more excited to see a neighbor that I barely knew. Yeah. And we're saying hello from a distance, but just even to see a happy person in the flesh. It's amazing how simple things like that— we saw a couple kids on from the other side of the street yesterday who were so excited to see us, and we, before, we would see them all the time and we wouldn't even react. My hope is that there is some residue to this experience that is positive or beneficial for the community. Do you have any thoughts about what you think might linger on post this experience?

I don't know, but one thing I would say is I hope some things are different after this. I hope we learn some things after this. I listen to the families who are having dinner with their kids for the first time because they're not racing to some practice or another, that there is a sense of togetherness that's really very nice. I joked with my husband that I'm gonna be healthier because I'm walking every day. That people are exercising. I think what we're gonna see is it— this experience is either gonna strengthen relationships or destroy relationships. And I think that those relationships that are more brittle or dysfunctional anyway will have a hard time weathering this because there's a lot of togetherness. The only people you can really be together with are the people that you live with. Now, that— the other issue are people who live alone, But for them, it's even more important to find ways to connect using social media so that they're not so alone. Somebody that I know talked about, if you live alone, cook a great meal, have a friend cook a great meal in their apartment, and then eat dinner together over Zoom to do things to change the social isolation. But I think, again, for all of us, what crises do is they exaggerate what's already there. So for some people, we have to really be worried about levels of depression and levels of anxiety that will be exacerbated by this. For most of us, be mindful in relationships of different styles of coping, um, and give everybody a lot of room. People are going to be tense and reactive in ways that they aren't necessarily usually reactive. So back to what'll change, I don't know. I hope that we really do think about what's important and what's necessary. We're learning all sorts of things about what we can do without. I think that has economic implications. I think that there are going to be massive changes in how we do business, what businesses survive, what businesses don't survive. But if we think about some of this environmentally, if we think about what can we learn from this so that when it's over— and it will be over, there will be an end to it. We don't know when or what it will look like, but we know that there will be an end— what we want to hold on to that we've learned from this experience. And that goes back to mindfulness again. So that don't try to just race through this, but really think about what matters, who matters. How it matters, and what you want things to look like. It is an opportunity.

Yeah. Well, for example, in the past in our firm, I was against working from home. Uh-huh. I didn't trust it. And now I see that in many ways, productivity is higher than it's ever been, but at a different rhythm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And getting back to that point you were making about people sitting down for dinner, I played a game that I haven't played since I was a kid with my own kid called Battleship. And I don't know what is happening, but it feels like in some ways this quarantine is forcing a simpler time or a simpler, slower connection. And I do think that part of the residue that will last for some families is Well, one, this idea that I've been tested in an interesting way and I did okay. Two, I think people are going to see that there are ways to feel powerful, not powerless, in the face of uncertainty and isolation. Yes. I think, three, it's going to force us to really take an audit of the inputs in our lives that help us and hurt us. The media that I absorb, does it make me more frenetic, or do I feel more informed and calm? And I think it'll make us in some ways appreciate the technology and the resources we have, because without those things, this would be a very different experience altogether.

It goes back to what we were saying before. If we can't look at this and find things to be grateful for, within it, then I think we're missing an opportunity. And I don't mean it to sound Pollyanna-ish. I really mean it as a coping device, as a way to create structure. Again, when we lose external structure, it becomes really important to create internal structure. And one of those things is really by thinking about what's important and what matters.

Is there anything else you think we should have talked about that we didn't that you think would help people who are listening to this taped conversation, anything you think that would help them as they make it through what could be another, you know, 30 days, 60 days, who knows? I think the idea that there will be an end, date uncertain, right? But we will get back to some form of normal life, albeit maybe different in some ways. A new normal. Yeah.

Is there anything we should have talked about Well, you know, it's like the Alcoholics Anonymous prayer: Control what you can, let go of what you can't control, and know the difference. The only thing that we have control of in this are our own reactions. So focus on your own reactions. Look for places where you can create agency. Look for places where you can create structure. That are real. So stick to a schedule. Get up in the morning at a regular time. Schedule in a 9 o'clock X or at 11:30 Y or a 3 o'clock Z. Have some structure. Again, we all do better with internal structure. Take the weekends and do whatever, but create structure for yourself. Comb your hair, get dressed, I know somebody who sees patients remotely and she puts perfume on in the morning because that's her normal routine. Do things that remind yourself of who you are and what's solid in your life. So know the difference between what you can control and what you can't, and control what you have control over. Can I say one more thing? And that has to do with money. Because I think that for lots of people, even if you're sitting on plenty, it really does remind you of your position of scarcity and abundance. And to panic right now— and I think people who work with Matt Hall and his firm hopefully really are seeped in that and know that they've made a plan that makes sense, and it still makes sense, but to really be aware of how you can panic yourself about money. Again, we don't know how deep this is going to be or what it means. Hopefully you're in a decent position and have saved money so you've got cash, but again, we'll come out of it. Try not to focus on that right now. We don't know where this is going to go, so I'd almost say to you, don't look at your numbers. They don't matter right now. We don't know where it's gonna go with it, and you're only gonna freak yourself out. Wait, stick with your plan, stick with your trusted advisors, and then once we hit peak or bottom, whichever way we put it, then you can start thinking about that. But right now, don't add that extra element to what is of panic, you can't do anything about it. So be mindful about how you're thinking about money and how you're thinking about your position with money. And again, think to the reality that you're probably in better shape than lots of other people, and giving and taking care of other people feels reassuring as well. So I do want to add that about money because I think it's a really important thing right now because We're being bombarded with it. And yes, it's really scary and it's, it's not good. But try to stay, I have a plan, it's a reasonable plan, it will see me through this, and we'll deal with what comes up. But right now we don't know what that is. So my gnashing my teeth about it isn't going to help me, it's just going to make me more nuts.

Thank you for that. The only thing I would add is we've been focusing and, and steering some conversations towards the micro actions that we can take that make makes sense at this time. Absolutely. And I think that's part of what is maybe not as satisfying as making like some big dramatic, uh, decision or move. But the way I feel you win as it relates to the financial piece of this puzzle is to chip away in these sort of smaller micro-level actions like rebalancing and tax loss harvesting, some of the systematics smart things that you can do in the face of periods of uncertainty, right? And really learning to embrace— in some ways, if the whole world was perfectly certain and you invested in that, you would get CD or bond-like returns. From our perspective, over the long run, you get rewarded for tolerating or embracing or learning to ride through some of these periods of uncertainty. That doesn't mean they aren't uncomfortable, And it doesn't mean that, that we like them. We own the exact same things our clients do. So we feel it too. But the best way to win long-term is to embrace some of the micro-actions that do actually make some sense.

Right. But that's again, knowing what you can do and doing that, but also knowing what you can't do. So by all means, do what you can do and what makes sense. Just know the difference between what you can do and what you can't do.

Great. Thank you, Marilyn. Um, really appreciate your time. And, um, you know, I'm hopeful that this helps people and is different from what they might hear from some other people in my same industry. And thanks for being a repeat guest on the podcast. My pleasure. How many credit cards do you have? Please note, the information shared in this podcast is not intended as advice. The intent is to share meaningful experiences. I am likely not your advisor, nor wealth manager, nor financial planner, and my opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by Hill Investment Group. Investing involves risk. Consult a professional before implementing an investment strategy. Thank you.