Zibby Owens: The Literary Influencer You Should Know (Season 2, Episode 6)

When I do things, I am trying to make a difference. I am trying to be a leader, and it doesn't have to be in politics. You don't have to be like that kind of leader. But when this pandemic hit, I had that in the back of my head. And as soon as I realized, like, we're in it now, what am I going to do? I was like, I have to make a difference. I have to help. I have to be a leader in the way that I know how. And that's in my little book world, really. Welcome to Take the Long View with I'm Matt Hall.

This is a podcast to reframe the way you think about your money, emotion, and time. The goal? Helping you put the odds of long-term success on your side. Zibby Owens is a writer and mother of 4 in New York City. She's the creator and host of the award-winning literary podcast Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, and before COVID-19, ran a literary salon with author events and book fairs from her home. Now she has launched many initiatives to help during the quarantine, including an online book club, daily podcasts, a new essay site with original exclusive essays from podcast authors called We Found Time, two Instagram Live shows, and an online bookshop. Zibby published her first article, a personal essay for Seventeen magazine when she was in high school, and has been writing ever since. Her work has appeared all over the place— Washington Post, The New York Times, Parents, Real Simple, Redbook, and on and on. She has appeared on Good Morning America, Good Day LA, Good Day DC, and just about every good morning or good day show across the country you could want to find. Uh, Zibi's a graduate of Yale University and Harvard Business School. Zibi has a marketing and branding background, and she currently lives in New York with her 4 children ages 5 to 12 and her great husband Kyle. And I'm proud to call Zibi a friend, and I've been on her show. Zibi, welcome to Take the Long View.

Thanks, Matt. Thanks so much for having me.

You are such a fascinating person for a variety of reasons we'll get into, but I wanted to start by talking about something that I find so peculiar in my own experience. I have had to pull my car over at least once, or I found myself crying one morning while I was shaving and listening to your podcast. And I was thinking, how many times when I listen to other podcasts have I teared up? Zero. The only two times are times when I've been listening to your podcast. And your podcast is not necessarily a sad podcast. It's a happy podcast for the most part, I think. But Zibi, what is it that is happening in your podcast that you think is touching people? Or is it just me?

I hope it's not just you, but maybe you're not listening to the right podcast. I think I have to add some other shows into your queue. No, I'm kidding. You know, I think when I do my show, it's not like a show to me. This is literally just who I am. I am literally just having these conversations the way I would with you, like if we were, you know, at dinner. And I am sort of not afraid to talk to people about really difficult stuff. And people are really open with me in return, and I'm really open with them. And I think sometimes getting that visibility into other people's souls, not to be cheesy, but, you know, innermost feelings and things they might not feel comfortable saying to other people. Hearing them say that can touch a nerve and make you feel less alone. And I think either it can make you cry like you matter, or it can help, or it can make you laugh. But it's really just the stuff of life. That's really all it is. It's just the stuff we're all going through all the time, presented in maybe a slightly different, more intimate way.

Yeah, well, for example, you wrote a piece about losing, uh, your best friend in 9/11. And you actually read several pieces from different times and reflecting on grief and that experience and your relationship. And it was so beautiful. First of all, if you're listening to this, go listen to that episode. I don't know what the episode number is, but it's such a beautiful— it's you not interviewing anyone. There's no guest. And it was such a beautiful thing to share. And it was unlike anything else I've ever heard. And so I would recommend that piece especially highly, but that's a piece with no guest. That's just you sharing your thoughts.

Sometimes I read the essays. I write essays all the time, personal essays and articles and things like that. And a few times I've decided to dedicate a podcast episode just to reading my essays. In that case, I was talking about my friend Stacy, who I lost on 9/11. And since that happened, you know, almost 20 years ago or 10 years ago, I can't even do any math. See, this is why I need you in my life. I've written about it over and over and over again the way that people do when they're trying to sort of work through something in their minds. And losing her was a huge moment in my life that changed everything else. And so I continue to write about it. And of course, it's not just my loss when I write about loss, it's everybody's loss. So you insert yourself into it. So yes, anyway, I guess, thank you.

Yeah, another time I can remember was you were interviewing Mitch Albom, who is most famous, at least I think, for writing Tuesdays with Morrie. But you asked him a beautiful question about his experience doing Tuesdays with Morrie versus his latest book, which I think is called Finding Chika. And he got emotional talking about the difference between those two books. And I remember I was shaving in the morning, getting ready, and it stopped me. Like, it was such a beautiful moment. I really— I was— it just was stunning. So I love that you bring those things out.

'Cause I asked him what the difference was in losing Mori and losing Chika. Now I'm trying to remember, but yes, he started crying and then I was crying. But now I feel like this is making it sound sappy. Most of the time people are not crying on this podcast, but yes, there are times of a lot of emotion and people opening up.

But I think you have a unique ability to zero in on the juicy stuff. That's what I really like. And we'll get to this, but I don't know how you do it because you, you read so much and you have highlighted so many great authors and you really get to the core of the core. And I think that's just really rare. So let's go quickly to away from tears and more to like, to the juice of what you do. If you were, I know we're not going to any parties these days, but if you were, we were transporting ourselves to a normal sort of party scene and someone said, "Zibby, what do you do?" How would you answer that now?

I would probably still say, I, you know, I host a podcast called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books and I'm, I'm a writer, although usually I don't feel comfortable saying I'm a writer since I haven't, you know, I'm not, it's not like I'm a bestselling author or even really an author. So, but yeah, I would say I host a podcast, although these days I'm doing a lot of other things. You know what I'd probably say? I'd probably say I host a podcast and do a million other things in the literary space.

Okay. Well, in some ways it feels to me like you're also building a community and you're shining a bright light on people you see as rock stars. I think I've heard you say before that you consider authors to be rock stars. It feels like there's more than just a podcast happening, like that you're really building some new community or a community I don't see much of.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I need to find a better way to answer that question myself. No, you're right. And in another way, I'm also sort of building this little mini media company because now I have a magazine and a podcast and I'm doing all these like little talk shows and I'm trying to build up a bunch of different offerings, but what I'm really trying to do is help readers, help authors, and help moms get through life. So I'm trying to, I don't know, help as much as I can.

Yeah, especially during this time where we kind of, I think, all need all the help we can get. I love in a recent article you wrote where you're giving tips for making time for reading. I really like your sense of humor. You said, "Hey, read before bed every night. Make it a habit. Yes, I know all you want to do is drink wine, check Instagram, and pass out.

That's okay too." I mean, that's usually what I want to do before bed, but I also read. So I mean, I don't know, I just like tell it like it is. I'm a mom, I get it. I'm just like, I don't know, I don't know. I just try to say what people are thinking.

Well, let's go back for a minute because, you know, when I met you, the podcast was still in its early days. What was the original inspiration for starting to build this community and drawing more attention to authors? What got you going?

It's so funny the way that this has developed because in a million years I never would've thought this is where it would be 2 years later. I mean, it started because I had been doing a lot of online essays about parenting that had gotten a lot of traction and a lot of reads. And actually Kyle, my husband, who you know well, said to me one night, "You know, you should really write a book of parenting essays." And I said, "Ugh, moms don't have time to read books." And then I thought, "Oh, that's funny. I'll just make that the title of my book." But then the people I spoke to about it in the literary community didn't think publishers would find that funny, which has turned out to be basically true. So I talked to some friends about what else I could do, and also at the same time, you know, I wasn't even on social media. I had no platform. I had been freelancing. I co-wrote a book in like 2007. I've done some things, but today to sell a book, you have to have either an unbelievable novel, fully written, or to have a nonfiction book sold, you have to have some sort of expertise or background or following, and I did not have that. The fact that I was a mother made me just like everybody else, and my writing, while lovely, was not enough. So in the back of my head, this new agent I had, I had the idea that I needed more of a platform. And then I went to coffee with a new friend of mine who's a middle grade author, and she said, "You know, I think you should have a podcast." And I was like, "What's a podcast? Why would I even do that?" Anyway, I went home and I sat on the couch with Kyle, and we were trying to find the button for even how to listen to podcasts. And I was like, "I don't even— what would I even do?" But because I've always been somebody who always just like tears out magazine articles, and I'm always sending magazine articles to friends or things that I think are great, I was like, I was like, "Oh, I'll just read those. I'll read the articles on my podcast and save people the time of reading them." Or I'll read excerpts of books because I'm the person that people always come to like, "What are you reading? What should I read? What should I pack on this trip?" So I thought I would do that. And then I found out that was illegal and that I would need legal permission for every single thing I read. So I scrapped that idea and I thought, "Well, I guess I could just go to the authors directly." And I tried it. So I said, I literally Googled like easiest Way to podcast or something like that. And I did it on my phone in my bedroom the first time I read an essay, like you were saying, that I had already written and had gotten like, I don't know, 65,000 reads on HuffPost or something. And I started and I was like, I'm not even going to tell anybody I'm doing this because I was very public. I've written several books in the past and I was very open about the fact that I'm writing a book and then it didn't sell and I was like mortified at the failure. So I was like, I'm not telling anybody. I'm just going to quietly do this and then I'll talk to my couple friends who are authors and I'll see how it goes. And that's it. And somehow now it's become this whole big thing. It's so funny. It's just so funny.

Yeah, it is a big thing now. You don't strike me as someone who gets nervous easily, but what's something that's happened recently that's been either an inordinate amount of coverage or exposure that's really sort of taken you by surprise or that's blown you away?

I just interviewed Alicia Keys this week, and I was nervous. After I talked to her for 2 minutes, I wasn't nervous because it was just like talking to a friend or something. She's so open, and it was very easy. But beforehand, I was like, you know, this is, you know, trying to calm myself down.

Okay, so you've had 80-plus, I think, New York Times bestselling authors on your show, but have you ever had an author on where you hated the book? And if so, how do you handle that? Or do those people not even make it?

Those people don't make it.

Yeah.

I only want to have books that I feature that I like. Sometimes I don't end up liking them as much as I think I'm going to like them at the beginning, because for any readers out there, you never know, right? You can— it can sound amazing and then it can disappoint you, or it can sound so-so and then completely delight you. So you never really know. I try, I try to skim a book, um, and research the author enough to know for sure before I have it on. But yeah, sometimes there aren't books that I end up not loving as much as I hoped I would, but then there's something really interesting about the author. So it's really— it's getting harder and harder to pass on books because every book is really a conversation I could have with a really interesting person. And I think just to have written a book makes you an interesting person. It means you have something to say and a unique point of view, and at least the journey of writing a book that's really interesting. So I handle it by talking more about the person than the book.

So Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, that's the title. You want to talk at all about how the title came about? And then I wanted to ask you, is there room for dads and men? Is that another show? Is that a second podcast?

I've thought about that. I've thought about finding a dad to run that show and do a show. And a kids' show and all that. And I have, I mean, I have ideas like that a lot. I think that some dads do listen and I think that's great. I mean, at first people told me, "Don't make it a show for moms, that's so limiting." And I was kind of like, "Okay, if I could corner the mom market, I'm fine with that." Like, it's not like a small market. I don't mean to exclude, but it is my point of view as a mom of 4. That's just how I look at the world. So it by no means, is to exclude people who don't have kids or are dads or anything else. But maybe, who knows, maybe. I've talked to a few, you know, male authors who I kind of threw the idea past. But right now, that's not my next step. So we'll see. It's in the— it's on the list.

But the gist of the title is, hey, you're busy. I'm going to help you find the thing that you should, when you dedicate time, you should spend your time on.

Yeah, and help you save the time by not reading terrible books and not, you know, decision-making is really hard, especially when you're tired and stressed and time-constrained. So I'm trying to take some of that pressure off by curating the selection of books. So that's one way. And it's also just a way to show moms that I hear them and that they can hear me back, 'cause we're all kind of in this together, and it doesn't matter what kind of life you're living or where you're living or your circumstances. There's something so fundamental to parenting that we can all relate, and so I try to offer some of that.

Okay, so let me ask you a couple quick questions. When you're getting ready for something big, like maybe the Alicia Keys thing, what do you tell to sort of pump yourself up or turn yourself on? What's your self-talk?

My self-talk is my husband because I'm always with Kyle before I do these things and he literally comes in and he's like, "Come on, you've got this." I know, it's so sweet. He's like high energy, high energy, come on. So that's what he says and then I go and do it.

We all need Kyle.

We do. He's great.

What do you wish more people understood about books or authors? Is there something you've learned about, since you have this huge sample size of talking to authors, is there something you've learned that you think more people should really understand or is underrated in some ways?

I know that people think books are hard work, but they're more hard work than you think and more teamwork. A lot of people are involved in every publication. I think aspiring writers compare their manuscripts on their desktops to published books that are in stores, and it's not a fair comparison because, as I've learned by talking to so many authors, they've rewritten their drafts over and over and over again. Their agents have been over them, their editors have been over them, they've had other people read them. It's a team project in a way after a while, and I didn't realize that as much until I spoke to them. And I think it should be a comfort to people who are trying to write themselves knowing— I mean, you're the one who wrote a book, you would know better than me, but that's one of the things I found.

What about the thing that you just started, We Found Time, which are these essays? How is that different or complementary to what you're already doing?

It's complimentary. They're essays written entirely by authors who have been on my podcast or my new Instagram Live show. And I wanted to offer original content about all the things, not just books, that moms don't have time to do. So I came up with several categories of the things I heard people complain about the most. Moms don't have time to eat, work out, breathe, have sex, and read. And I, then I had authors write on all these topics. So now I have this whole backlog of essays and I'm really excited about it. And I have this great new editorial director And every week we're coming out with several different essays on these topics. We're going to expand and have other features as well to make it more of a whole literary lifestyle type magazine. I've been debating doing a print edition, but I think it's complementary in that they're getting to know the authors more. And one of my main sort of theories is that the more you get to know the author, the more likely you'll be to buy their book and to really enjoy their book. I feel like once you know the author— I mean, when I got to know you and then I read your book, it was a very different experience than had I read your book and then met you. It gives it a whole different flavor. Different layer of meaning, I think, to get to know the person behind it. So this is just an extra layer and essays that I hope people will laugh at and where that will help them or that will make them cry or that will just again make them feel less alone and more understood as they go about their busy lives.

You know, I want to ask you, uh, there are some people who listen to this podcast who are sort of businessy And you've had a few businessy people on your podcast, and one of them is Ray Dalio, who's famous for running one of the largest hedge funds in the world, uh, but also wrote a book called Principles. I find it very interesting. And you also had your dad on the podcast who wrote What It Takes. And then I've been on the podcast. Do any of these people have anything in common, or how do you pick, uh, your, your businessy folks?

You're all superstars, of course. How do I pick my businessy people? My dad, obviously, I was going to have on the podcast as long as he said yes, which I was not sure he was going to say. My dad is Steve Schwarzman, who wrote What It Takes, and he founded Blackstone a long time ago. I was really excited. I helped edit the book and was just so thrilled for him and couldn't wait to have him on the podcast. In fact, that was one of the most— special moments for me was recording my episode with him. Ray Dalio's team asked me to have him on and I was like, "Sure." So that was a thrill. And you, I met you and I really liked you and I wanted to see what your book was about. Then I ended up loving your book. So that's how you came on. I'm not averse to having more businessy people on, but I just haven't. I don't know. I'm not against it.

Is it hard to find good nonfiction businessy books?

No, it's just not my typical go-to book right now. Um, but I am interested. I went to business school. There's a lot of business stuff that I do find super interesting. It's just not my primary focus for the podcast right now.

Yeah, you wrote a great piece about— I'm not sure what, what parents intend for us to remember, but I'm going to tell you the things that I remember my dad doing with me or, you know, sharing with me that really have lasted or stuck. And it was so— it's so well done. You want to talk about that for a minute?

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what to get my dad for Father's Day last year, and usually I go with the same sort of tie or bathing suit or book, Swatch watch, one of these— one of my go-to gifts for him. But I was thinking about it And I was reflecting on our relationship and how, you know, as I'm a parent, the things that I wonder what my kids will remember about my parenting, hopefully not the times that I scream and cry in the bathtub and all those other things, but the good things. And I was wondering if my dad even knew what really meant a lot to me growing up. Then I kind of wondered, does he even remember it? So I just started making a list and then I made it into an article. Of like the stories he would tell me at night about Myrtle the Turtle or holding my hand, walking me to preschool, and just all these like little moments that ended up being what I remembered the most. So I wrote about them.

I think the first one was something like called Milkshake.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He would put me to bed at night and say, what kind of milkshake do you want? And I would say chocolate. Then he would put his arms around me, and I'm showing you, not that you can see this in podcasts, but and like shake me up and say, "Chocolate milkshake!" And I would laugh and it would be so fun. And yeah, it was so sweet. He would like stroke my eyes while I went to bed and oh, just so sweet and tender. It was really nice.

And one of the themes that ran through that piece was like the idea of giving your full presence to your kids, that his presence was in many ways a present. And as you were shopping with your your own child, you were talking about sort of whether the moments are perfect or imperfect, the value of understanding that not diluting your full presence is so important.

So really beautiful.

Totally.

I mean, the other day, I have 4 kids, as I mentioned, and my little guy is 5. And I don't often spend that much time alone with him because we're all together, but it doesn't even occur to me. And the other day we were jumping on the trampoline just for a minute, and he was like, "I've always wanted to go on the trampoline just with you." And that just like made me want to cry because I was like, have I never just been on the trampoline with him? Him. So it's just these little things and these little moments. I could have easily missed that moment by doing 5 more emails, but I didn't. And that's sort of what parenting is all about— finding the time to stop the emails and, and squeeze in the really important moments, because you never know when they're coming.

You're so nice and sweet and empathetic, I feel like, on the podcast and in real life. But you also have an MBA from Harvard. What was that about for you, and how does that— how did that time or that work, how does it influence, if at all, what you do now?

You know, one of the ways it's influenced me is because while we were there, they must have repeated the mission statement 8,000 times, which is to educate leaders who make a difference in the world. And I think about that a lot because when I do things, I am trying to make a difference. I am trying to be a leader, and it doesn't have to be in politics. You don't have to be like that kind of leader. But when this pandemic hit, I had that sort of in the back of my head. And as soon as I realized, like the day I was here and I was like, we're in it now, what am I going to do? I was like, I have to make a difference. I have to help. I have to like be a leader in the way that I know how. And that's in my little, you know, book, book world really. So it's inspiring that way. The connections and people that I made there have really continued to help. The reason I even went to business school, um, I've always been really entrepreneurial and had all these different ideas, which I still have. Like, I'm just like, idea, idea, idea. And half— I mean, probably most of them are terrible, but they continue to bubble up all the time. And one idea I had was— well, it's not even worth going into, but I had this one idea. And my dad had said to me, like, before you start any business, you need to go to business school. He went to Harvard Business School and he was a big fan. And I was at the time working in marketing at Unilever and to get promoted to the position above mine, you needed an MBA. So I figured, you know what, there's no harm. I loved school. I could stay in school forever. I really loved it. I thought about being a psychologist and getting a PhD, and I thought about getting a PhD in organizational behavior and all these other things, but this seemed like the shortest and it couldn't hurt. So I figured I would try it, and if nothing else, I could, you know, move up in the corporate ladder in brand marketing, and at best, I could have more tools to be an entrepreneur. So that's sort of why I went.

Tell me what you're doing when you feel your absolute best.

I really love the feeling of writing. I love it. I lose all track of time. I am so immersed and happy and in a place that is very calming for me. I have a lot of anxiety normally, and so I'm always— I have a lot of energy and I'm like running around doing all this stuff. But when I'm writing, I'm just sort of centered and sitting and focused. So I love that. I also really love reading. It's the same benefits, really. And yeah, those are two of my favorite things.

Well, speaking of writing, you told me once that you have— or I'm gonna say this— you have an amazing title for a book called Forty Love. Is this ever going to become a real thing?

Matt, I've been working so hard on this book. I am so frustrated, I want to throw it out the window. So I rewrote it three times and I actually sent it out to a few publishers and it's not quite right for the 5 that I sent it to, but a couple of them had really specific, great comments that if I just could sit down and implement, they even told me other editors that they think would really go for it. But I don't know, the rejections alone of these couple of people, I'm just like, I don't know if I can do it again. So I have this book, it is completely written, there are parts of it I really like, It's emotional and I think it will help people, but I don't know. I'm not sure. Hopefully after the pandemic goes away and I can scale back a little bit some of the offerings I'm doing and have a little more time to focus on writing again, I'll do it. But I don't know. I don't know. It's here.

You've got the title nailed. Do you want to tell people what Forty Love means?

Well, the book is about falling in love again at 40. And I am divorced and remarried, and I married my kid's tennis pro and my tennis pro. And it's very sort of salacious, and nobody expected me to do that. And, you know, it's a trip. It's sort of based on my own life, which is where it gets me into trouble. So I fictionalized it and based it somewhere totally different and ended up developing some characters. But yeah, it's about— starting over, starting over at 40.

I love two stories that I know connected to Kyle and how you met Kyle. One of the stories was about sort of Kyle rejecting giving tennis lessons to your son. And that's part of how he met you was like, "Hey kid, you're not into this. I'm not going to teach you. Go get your mom." And there you go. I love that story. And there's another story that, which is one day I played tennis with Kyle and afterwards we were talking and he told me a story about a tennis camp he was involved in, and kids really wanted to be in this camp. It was really a high-energy, fun tennis experience. And at the end of one day, he noticed a young girl who was in tears, and she was late to the camp and didn't get to experience it. And Kyle and some others redid a whole second camp just for her.

Yes, I remember that.

I mean, that is such a— if you shared all the nuances and color of that story, it's just so beautiful. And it's speaks to the kind of person Kyle is. But back to you, I want to talk about how you define now for what you're doing, or maybe it's not even related to what you're doing now, maybe it's related to your family, but how do you define success or fulfillment? Because you're doing, you're cranking out so much stuff and you're building this great community. What does success or fulfillment look like? Is it just more or is it something else?

I feel very fulfilled right now. I'm really happy. But yes, I'm constantly trying to build towards something else, and I don't have something specific in mind. I would love to have a book on the bookshelves in bookstores. I would love to just go to a bookstore these days, but that is a goal that I haven't crossed off the list yet. So I would really like to do that, although I do have a new deal for two children's books from Penguin Random House, so that's exciting. It's about—

Congrats!

Yeah, a girl named Princess Charming, um, so that's fun at least. But I really would like to get a a real book on the shelves. Success, I mean, every time I get an email from someone who's like, "Your podcast helped me get through the day," or, "The fact that I watch your IGTV shows is the only thing I do in quarantine that gives me any sort of rhythm," or, "This book, you showed me this book and it came into my life at just the right time. It's just what I needed." I mean, it's amazing. So I feel like all these little jolts of satisfaction constantly. It all fuels me to do more and more and more. And I know that not everything I'm doing is getting a bazillion views or anything, but if I reach one person and I know that they're getting something out of it, I feel really successful. So I just want to like amplify that and reach more people.

That's lovely. Where do you want people to learn more about you?

They can go to my website, zibbyowens.com, Z-I-B-B-Y-O-W-E-N-S. It has everything. It has the podcast, it has the new magazine We Found Time, partners, all my COVID-19 branded offerings, my virtual book club, which I'm really excited about. That's where they can learn about everything. And also to follow me on Instagram @ZibbyOwens because I'm always posting what I'm up to.

Yeah. What is sort of the best long view example from your life where you've like delayed gratification and it's really paid off? Do you have a great example from your own life of where you've taken a longer view or sort of taken a short-term sacrifice for some longer-term gain?

I would say having kids. Yes, that's a good example. I've taken the long view on kids and sacrificed everyday happiness as I muddle through that. No, but in all seriousness, it's like hacking away at some sort of like a sculpture, like a little bit at a time, like trying to get some of these things across to the kids or changing a behavior or all this stuff and each day it seems like it's just not having an effect and I just have to keep at it and then one day it will pay off and I get glimpses that my influence is helping. But I have to say, I have to just think far ahead and not stay in the moment, in the moment of the kid tantruming or feeling like a failure and remember that this is my job and I will make X kid more empathetic or Y kid, you know, more resilient or whatever it is I'm trying to do that day. And, um, I have to be in it. I just have to go for the ride.

Have you taught them any lessons either from what you're doing with Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books or lessons about affluence or wealth that you think have really stuck with them? What you've taught your kids either about business or about money?

Everything I'm doing is to help people. So I'm always talking to the kids and showing them, you know, when I say I'm going in my room to do a podcast, "Why are you doing a podcast?" Or even my 5-year-old asks, "Why are you interviewing these people?" So I'll just say I'm doing it to help them. I'm trying to help other people. And, you know, even during COVID-19, we'll go to the dinner table and I'll say, "Okay, well, today I gave money to Mount Sinai Hospital because they're doing really amazing things to help other people. And we all gave money to them today. Surprise. Sorry." So I share with them when I donate to certain places because I think it's really important and I explain why I've donated. And why it's important and why I give of my time and why I'm not doing my whole podcast. All this stuff I'm doing, I'm not doing for money. In fact, I told any small businesses that wanted to be a sponsor, advertise on my show, I just can't in good conscience accept money for that right now with everybody struggling. So I explain that to the kids and that not every job, not every endeavor is about earning money and that fortunately I can do this as a service and it's something that I love and that I hope they love. It's so important to give back that I've sort of used all my free time to give back. And also, you know, also it's enjoyment for me. But yeah, just the importance of making other people happy and giving back to other people and doing what we can to help others.

I like having you on this side of the microphone. I like getting to ask you questions. You do such a good job inquiring about other people's stories. I love hearing people on your podcast talk about their work. Some people are great writers and maybe not as good talking about their work. But you get— you do add a new dimension or a new layer to even books that I may not read. I just love hearing about their method or their process or the way they develop the characters. And I've bought everything from cookbooks to lots of other things that I didn't expect to read because you helped me get interested or added some sort of spice to a story that was enough to sort of stretch me into a new category of the, at this point, online bookstore that I may not have visited recently. So thanks for what you're doing. I think no one else is doing it, especially not the way you're doing it, because it's a different type of leadership. It may not be the type of leadership that everyone who has a Harvard MBA embraces, but I love the way you do it. So thanks for everything.

Aw, thank you. That's really, really nice. Thank you so much for having me on your show.

What book has changed your life? Please note, the information shared in this podcast is not intended as advice. The intent is to share meaningful experiences. I am likely not your advisor, nor wealth manager, nor financial planner, and my opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by Hill Investment Group. Investing involves risk. Consult a professional before implementing an investment strategy. Thank you.