£30m Pet Brand Empire, Forbes List & Finding Happiness - Adam Reed | Midnight Podcast Episode 7

Right, we are back with episode seven now of the midnight pod. And we're just saying to Adam, I guess I'll let him introduce himself in a second. But yeah, been recording like two a week for the past. Well, two weeks. Trying to stick on that one episode per week for like the next year on that Runway. So give myself some time so I can actually leave the flat one time if I actually want to go away. But this is a big episode, in my opinion. Adam's pretty fucking underground, to be fair. In my opinion. Probably. Probably actually are like one of the biggest econ beasts in the UK that no one fucking knows about. Like, I will say that I'm sucking you dick a little bit, but yeah, me and Adam probably go pretty far back, to be fair, like five, six years back in the day, which I'm sure we'll dive into. And I think a lot of my mates that I see more often now probably don't even know the fuck you are and don't know as much about your story and shit. So I think it's gonna be a banging episode. And we've got Tokyo as well, ruining everyone's life as usual.

I don't mind. He's a good boy.

But I guess, yeah, first question, just give you the stage. Just. This is probably. You could probably spend half an hour speaking about this alone. But just like your background. When did you get into ecom? Up to now, really. Which, you know, is about, what, seven years or something?

Yeah. All right. Not good with timelines and dates, but, I mean, started drop shipping probably. I remember messaging you asking where you learning this stuff.

Yeah.

Added me to Murray's Facebook group. That must have been six years ago.

That's classic. That's like cult shit.

Yeah. Six years ago. James Beatty as well. Yeah. So drop shipped for probably about a year and a half. This is really cutting it short. Drop shipped for about a year and a half, moved into Print on Demand, then moved into custom print on demand in 2018. And yeah, have been there ever since, but that is, you know, the tip of the iceberg, really.

Yeah.

I can go in more depth if you want.

We can just bring the mic up a little bit. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. Because am I right in thinking I actually remember how we originally came across each other? Because you were, I think, a year above me in Newcastle. Were you in Newcastle?

You're not Newcastle. Yeah.

And I was Northumber. Cause I was fucking did shit in my elbows. And you had. What was it called? Like long line clothing. Yeah. Drop shipping. Like jeans and I'M pretty sure I like either. Saw what you were doing and basically ripped it off with one of my first successful dropshipping stores, which became Dusk, which was the brand I've referred a few times.

Yeah.

I think you messaged me being like, why the fuck are you using.

Yes.

I mean, what it was. I don't know if I knew.

Each of you didn't know. Well, we did. I saw you post Wavy Leggings on Facebook and I had you on Facebook because I was a promo wanker at uni and just added everyone and invited them to events. Yeah, that's what marketing was, you know, invite them to a Facebook event. So that's how I knew of you. And then I was like, this looks interesting. I'd already tried to start a clothing brand at uni and failed.

Yeah.

So I messaged you like, oh, using that thing called Oberlo. Yeah.

Yeah. This is gonna be a nostalgic episode.

And it went from there. But then obviously I started the longline clothing thing, which was just like a drop ship. Drop shipped streetwear. Brand.

Brand. Yeah.

And you obviously. We talk about numbers and stuff. I don't know what you were running at the time, but it can't have been as good as what we do because you went and made Dusk and I was like, you absolute fucker.

Yeah, I remember that because I had wavy leggings, which was like my first. Well, that was print on demand. And like, this was like May 2016. I think I had like a few brands before that which didn't do anything. Wavy leggings did like 15 grand in sales in like 3 months without Facebook ads. But then I was like, the margin is too small. Etc, Etc. Then I think that's when I joined Murray's Facebook group. Yeah, like seven figure kings. These are like, this is actually like, this is like in a few years, we'll look back on this sort of shit. Like, people look back on, like, I don't know, like, MySpace and Bebo and stuff and like all those. And like Tumblr.

Yeah.

It's like it's going to be in. In the history books, Maurice.

Facebook.

Well, in the E comm community. Yeah. And that's where then I started learning. This was like maybe a summer to like. So I remember I went home and I'd lost my job that I previously had the previous summer at Waitrose. And then I had a job at John Lewis the year before. And then in 2016, I didn't get rehired. And I was like, I literally had like 14 quid. I just remember thinking, well, I'm just gonna learn Facebook ads in a group. And you pick more ease.

You pick the right one. Yeah.

Joined a bunch of groups back when, like Facebook was, I guess what fucking TikTok is now. Probably figured out Facebook ads then. Yeah, that was the thing. I don't know if it's because I saw yours, but maybe. But then I started drop shipping the jeans, etc, and then that's when my.

Main drop stuff before that. That wasn't your first. I know.

That was my first. That was my first drop shipping store.

No way.

I had a brand before that, which is Gentry Club. Well, that was like 2015.

Oh, there's so much stuff I've skipped over. All the little I used to do.

Yeah, you're really crap at doing an intro. Tokyo's also trying to bite you.

Biting my sleeve.

What's he doing? He goes wild when guests come over.

Canvas, mate.

Yeah, he did that to Chris. Get down.

Get down.

He's going mad. But, yeah, that was my first drop shipping store, pretty much.

Okay.

And then the first one as well, that I discovered ads. And Obviously back in 2016, I remember getting like £1 cost per purchase. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

Please. Yeah. And yeah, I think you're doing similar stuff back then.

Yeah.

So cheap.

But you also run in Tiger Wednesdays because going to that.

I mean. Okay.

Very shit intro. Because you've got a good story.

All right, let's. Let's rewind. I was always one of the kids in school that was always wheeling and dealing, trying to make money, usually online.

Yeah.

And, you know, I started. I knew of Alibaba, AliExpress, Dhgate, all that stuff when I was like 15. And I was buying replica stuff. Obviously shouldn't be doing that, buying replica stuff, importing it from China, selling it on ebay. Because I needed to afford the lads holiday at the end of sixth form. Yeah. And anyway, I got shut down. While I shut myself down, I got a letter from customs and they were like, stop selling these fake Ray Bans. Okay, sorry.

I feel like that scam's still going on now.

100% stopped doing that. I actually started. I was like a proper nerd when I started my nerd. I was obsessed with Pokemon when I was a kid.

Yeah.

And so I thought, I'll start selling rare Pokemon trades on ebay. And I was the first person legit, the first person to sell Pokemon trades on ebay. And then loads of people started doing it.

Yeah.

So that was Interesting. Did loads of stuff like that whilst in sixth form and then obviously went to uni because that's what you do, apparently.

Yeah.

So your teachers tell you went to uni and everything got kind of like put on hold. I stopped, you know, trying to start businesses, making money for myself and started doing like promotion, which to people who.

In Newcastle is such a big thing as well.

Newcastle, Such a wit. It's such a weird culture. There's a big bubble with like promo in Newcastle. When we were at uni and I decided to start working in promo. Did that for two years working for another company and then decided, hang on, I can do this myself. So I teamed up with another lad and we started a night called Tiger Wednesdays in my third year of uni which turned into like a massive weekly night out for all the Newcastle uni sports teams. We had like 3,000 people every week outside Tiger, Tiger queues. Like you probably see them in London, but in Newcastle it was ridiculous. And I was walking down, what's the name of the main street in Newcastle?

Granger Street. I've actually, I've lost Northumberland Street.

Every, every Thursday I'd go down, pick up the cash, work out what I owe people and walk down Northumberland street with a grand in cash in my backpack to put in the bank every week in third year uni and think about that now. It's like, you fucking idiot. Like why you could. You could easily got mugged.

Yeah. People start to notice you.

Yeah. So I was doing that. Nobody really knew how well it was going except my housemates who also worked in promo. But anyway, thought I would carry on doing that after graduating, so stayed up there for maybe six months. Everything went to shit. New management came into our venue that we were using and didn't like me, kicked me out and got lawyers involved and, well, he says he got lawyers involved. I was being sent all these like legal letters and it turns out after having done research a few years later it was his mate who, yes, was a lawyer, but, you know, this was never going to get taken to court. But me being a naive 20 year old who didn't want to lose all the money he'd made and all this stuff and felt like if I have this behind me, I'm not going to get a job. I kind of gave in. I was like, you know what? Just, let's just leave it.

I think I remember that. I don't know if you ever mentioned that before.

Yeah, no rings a bell. Moved back to my mum and dad and obviously they were like, okay, what's the plan? So, started applying for master's degrees and jobs.

What degree did you get?

Sorry, yeah, yeah, linguistics. Pointless. Started applying for. I applied for a master's in entrepreneurship at Leeds. It's fucking stupid.

I did entrepreneurial business managing for six weeks before leaving. Stupid.

Anyway, got an interview for potentially, like, what would be if I was that sort of person, would have been the job of my dreams. And, you know, my mum and dad were buzzing for me and went down to London and was in this hotel. Couldn't really sleep. Woke up really early in the morning and it's cliche as fuck, but I put the suit on, I put the tie on and looked in the mirror. I was like, what the f. Why are you even here?

What was your first job?

It was. I had a interview for. To be an operations analyst for MI5.

Fucking MI6 just down the road.

Fuck. Well, sorry, boys. And I realized, like, okay, don't go to this interview. There's no fucking way you can go back on this because they're not gonna have you back. You've let them down. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, well, it's not me, so I'm gonna let him down. Packed my bag, got on the train, got home. I was like, shit, you've just thrown away what would be.

You didn't go at all?

No.

You just decided on the morning?

Yeah, I hadn't slept. I got a two hours sleep, got dressed as an interview. I was like, what are you doing? This isn't you. Go home. So I went home and I was like, right, I need to make business work for me now. Because I realized this is the sort.

Of person I am.

This is for me. Entrepreneurship.

Yeah.

So it's like the next thing you do, you need to take seriously. And it was drop shipping, which was like the least serious online business you could possibly start. Arguably best place to start, though.

Best in many ways to learn.

Yeah.

Especially back in those days.

So that was it. That's how I got into drop shipping. And that's when I messaged you like, yo, I've just seen wavy leggings. Where can I live?

Because I was still in uni at that point. I didn't. Were you in Leeds then? You're back home in Leeds?

I was back home in Leeds. Because you're a year younger, so.

Yeah. Yeah, you would have been. Yeah, because I. Yeah, at that point I'd already delayed a year because I'd done a year out when I dropped out and then went and worked in London doing this M and A shit.

Yeah.

Went back, tried to pretend I wanted to be at uni again. And then, yeah, I guess fairly similar story. And then how long were you doing dropshipping for? And how did that look?

I mean, things went well, a lifetime. I couldn't really give you an accurate timeline if I tried. I just remember because we went to Singapore to that conference and I was dropshipping. Then I remember we were in some.

Bar that was a fucking.

And you were saying, do you check your analytics, like, every. Every hour? I was like, no. Why? Oh, I'm obsessed with checking my analytics. All right.

Yeah, I don't do that at all now. How to get mentally ill do that.

So I was maybe doing like a grand or two grand a day in revenue. I do vaguely remember having my first 100 grand month, and I had this big Facebook group with like 30,000 people and I was teaching people drop shipping.

So I thought, yeah, I remember that.

And I remember posting in this group, oh, my God, I've just done my first 100,000 pound month. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I can't even tell. That's probably like 2017.

Yeah, that was 2017.

It was.

That conference was September 17th, right?

Yeah.

And there's so many people from that, like, in good and bad ways that I remember because. Yeah, like, people like Jordan I met.

There, which Jordan turned 18 that first night.

But then there's a lot of people like Steve and Evan Tan.

Like, you're shot if you. If you start name dropping.

Well, I'm not saying good or bad things, but I just. You don't really hear about those.

No.

You don't even like Murray Edwards Maury unless you just stopped being public.

But yeah, like, people probably will do a podcast in here and say, Jim Bottom Reed, we're in his Facebook group. Yeah, he's probably. In fact, you know what? Like a year ago, someone messaged me, like, adam, you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm good. All right, well, people are posting your Facebook group saying you failed and you've had to get a job. I was like, all right, cool. Do you not want to answer them? No, that's fine for them to think that.

Yeah. Fuck. But yeah, yeah, those Facebook groups are mad.

They were helpful at the time, but. And then get to a point where it's just a waste of time.

When did the pod transition start? Because the next distinct memory I have was that we're both in. Was. We had the office in Leeds. Yeah, yeah, same in summer. I think when it was, it was Canal something. Castleton Mill.

Castleton Mills. Castleton Mills.

Because I was back home in York for a while and I was thinking about moving to Leeds, and then I thought I'd get an office in Leeds for you. And this was like, in between. This was like peak. When I was drop shipping and traveling the world, I suddenly had this weird. Yeah, I was doing big numbers. I suddenly had this weird, oh, I want to. I want to come back and get an office. But then I remember we obviously sat off after like three months. I think it was like July, August, September 18th.

Yeah. Because they actually emailed us, like, you're clearly not using this office.

Yeah.

Can we give it to someone else?

Like, yeah, yeah.

So impulsive. Yeah, that was.

I've done a lot of fucking mad impulsive things, to be fair, that I do think in hindsight, like, don't regret it. But. Yeah, you just learn, like, what you like and don't like. And at the time, I did not want an office.

Yeah. But you also, like, learn how impulsive and erratic you are as a person, which I never was growing up. I don't know why it started to come out now, now that I'm like a fully formed. Well, probably because I'm a form.

Well, I feel like you're a lot more mature and less erratic than me in my.

Oh, 100%. 100%. We can get onto that.

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I remember that. And then I went off to Australia or some shit. And that's about a few months before I started getting back into the brand building space.

But, yeah, I think so. Definitely the. The next memory that I have is the. I mean, drop shipping for me, I kind of lost touch with it. I stopped enjoying it. And because I stopped enjoying, I stopped teaching it.

Yeah.

And I just kind of took myself away from that whole bubble of Facebook groups and, you know, how to make money online, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that.

Yeah.

And just kind of moved into print on demand because you don't have to deal with inventory. So you can scale it as quickly as you like to an extent. But also you don't have customers leaving one star reviews opening chargeback saying, Hey, I ordered this 10 months ago. Where is it? So that was really, really good for me in terms of just like a step up, a step in the right direction. And I was doing that when we had the office with Eddie as well. And I remember it November time we had. Yeah, Eddie was there for a while.

Yeah. ILU rings, which he then sold. Yeah.

And I was like, we were chatting about all sorts of stuff. And I remember having a conversation about with Eddie, he said, you know, what would you exit for? I think you said, like, 10 mil. He said, like, 20 mil. And he said to me, adam, what would you exit for? I was like, I'd be happy with the mil. He's like, really? But, yeah. Anyway, so we're in the office.

It's funny looking back at you say when you're, like, a bit more inexperienced. I know.

And I was running this print on demand website and it was Q4 and I was doing like 17 grand a day. And it was the most I'd ever seen on a Shopify dashboard before. And I was starting to see issues with my fulfillment because my artists could not produce this artwork quick enough. And in January, we got, like a big backlash from that. It was quite hard to recover from. Oh, yeah, business. This was before, Remember the, like, the woman who managed the office, she'd email us and say, hey, I've got this person in Australia ringing, asking, asking for this business, asking where the product is. Oh, yeah, sorry, that's me.

Yeah, I remember that.

And she said, oh, don't worry about it, I've had it before. I was like, oh, really? She said, oh, yeah, I used to work customer service for pup socks. Oh, no way. So, yeah. And anyway, learned a lot from that come January, when I had all those issues come in. And then March 2019, had this idea for another brand and having learned from all the mistakes with the first one, knowing what I needed to do in order to scale sustainably without breaking anything, here we are. It's been a major success.

Yeah, because. Yeah, because you said earlier you've been doing the current brand. Are we allowed to name the current brand?

We can name it. I think people know by now.

Yeah. Crown and poor.

Yeah.

So, yeah, because I always tell people that you basically, in my mind, invented. Well, I just say you fucking came up with, like, the custom pet portrait niche. But I guess it's a bit. I mean, it's more specifically, like regal stuff in it.

Yeah, it's like almost like a common body. We were the first to do 100% digital anyway. Not by hand. 100%. And now there's loads of copycats, but they're not. They can't touch us. I'm quite confident in saying that. They can't touch us. We've invested so much in stuff they've not even had to think about yet because they've not had to experience the scale and the volume in November and December when it's make or break for that type of business.

Yeah.

So it's. Yeah, it's a different. It's just a different volume.

Previous one. What's the previous one? Printy Pets.

Printy Pets, yeah. Very small still.

Yeah, Because I remember that that was very. Is that still going.

Still ticks over. Yeah.

And that's basically the same. Just a slightly different spin, same idea.

It's the same business model, same sex. The. It's pets, man. It's.

Yeah, same.

Just different brand in different type of artwork, different team of artists, but everybody, like the core team are all the same. Yeah. The software that we've built ourselves is the same. Yes. It's just like Pretty Pets version 2, Crown and Paw. And it's just.

Yeah.

Learning from the mistakes I made with printing pets in that first year when that started taking off and, you know, getting things in place, investing in the places you need to invest to prepare for the scale that, you know is going to come. But maybe, I mean, didn't expect it to scale so quickly. Like, I was running the ads until we were spending like ten grand a day on Facebook. And I thought, I need to kind of be the CEO of the company instead of the ads buyer at this point and spoke to various agencies and decided on one. And he said the same thing. Like the owner's agency was like, you know, you need to direct the company. You need to be deciding where this is going. It's not just going to be a print on demand business. You know, you need to take it where it needs to go. And you can't do that if you're spending ten grand a day on Facebook and you're in the account. In the trenches. Yeah. I was like, yeah, fair enough. So outsourced that and, you know, got invited to their offices in la, took my brother and we had this meeting and we figured out, you know, we can, as a company produce this amount of orders per day without breaking. Because I said to them, I don't want to break this.

Yeah.

So then we backtracked. We figured out how much we can spend a day to not break the business, but still make a shit ton of money. And we did. And this was 2019. It was a huge success. Yeah. But also in 2019, I decided to go to Bangkok to like, another conference with a friend of mine. And the flight from Hong Kong to Bangkok was on Black Friday and the checkout broke because I wasn't on.

Plus, I remember this.

And we worked out that I must have lost like 300 grand in revenue in four hours. So yeah, I fixed some problems and created some new ones.

But yeah, I remember that agency. I ended up working with that agency. I'm not gonna name him. But you still work with them.

Yeah, still with them. Yeah. There's been a lot of personnel changes and you know, we have issues and we talk it out and yeah, for.

You're probably like. You probably get white glove treatment at this point though.

Yeah.

With like yeah, white glove treatment plus it's pretty good.

But yeah, so we did, you know, we did a ton of money in the first nine months. Not even a full year. So end of 2019, it was crazy. I think we did 10 million in revenue. Well, we. I'm have to say this because it's out there. We did 10 million in revenue and then 2020 didn't break the checkout on Black Friday, luckily. And we did 20 million in 2020 pounds USD. Everything's in USD.

Yeah.

So done. 30 million so far. Well, more because we got this year. But yeah, it's crazy.

Sick, right? So huge numbers compared to. Well by anyone's standards really. But particularly for a new fucking brand in the first year. On the second year, pretty much. First years. What's it looking like this year? You said you can't mention that or I can mention.

I'll just say it's not looking as good as last year because I think every E commerce business will have experienced such a positive impact from COVID 100%. Everyone's been at home buying shit so.

It'S not looking quite the same for me either.

Yeah. But I mean it's still very, very healthy and I'm happy where it is and finally figured out the direction we want to take. Not only Crown and Paul, but you know, the company as a whole.

And how many brands you mentioned? Two. You think you got more than two, do you?

There's three. The other three. Yeah. Everything's custom print on a manner. I mean I. I realize what a position I'm in in terms of a platform to build off. Custom print on demand is definitely where I need to be for the next few years because I've experienced so many ups and downs with it. I know all the issues people will experience when they're trying to scale. Yeah, I know. I know that there is a bottleneck when you're scaling past a certain level that people can't fix right now because there's nothing out there to help them. I can't really go too much detail but we've invested a shit ton of money.

Yeah.

To put us In a position where we could scale to 20 million in a year. 50% of that we already have. Well, yeah, exactly. So that was problematic and it's been fucking easy. It was easier last year dealing with that than it was dealing with printy pets three years ago. Doing less than a million in a month. It's. It's insane.

How much do you think you could possibly do with either one of the brands or all of the brands? Like if, like, do you think there is a ceiling? Like, could you do 100 mil with print on demand? Custom print on demand.

Oh, with custom print on demand, yeah. You can do 100 mil, but not with one of mine. There's a ceiling with them because of the type of product they are.

So you think you'd have to have like 10 doing 10 mil. You don't think you can get 1 to 100 mil unless it was a much bigger niche or something.

No, you can probably get 1,200mil, but it's going to be like a general store type thing.

Yeah.

And I'm. I know I'm not for that because I like the creative process that goes into.

Yeah.

And people probably listen, thinking, you're stupid, you've done all this stuff. Why don't you try go for 100 mil with one store? Because I don't wanna. Simple as that. Yeah.

That's a very like mature outlook, I think. I think a lot of people realize that. Cuz like we're saying again briefly before we start recording. Was it me? Was it, Was it also though, I was thinking about the other day and yeah, a lot of people are, you know, you'll ask anyone, what do they want to sell their brand for? Or just like whether they started a brand or. Or they want to start a business and they're like 100 mil. Well, I want to do 100 mil. And then it's like they pull this line.

Oh, it's a round number.

It's usually people that haven't even done five mil.

Yeah.

They say, I wanted 100 mil because.

And then reassess.

And people don't say a billion because a billion sounds silly. So they land on a hundred.

It's funny because you say this and it's so true. And then I think about myself and I'm coming from it totally oppositely. Like I'm like, I'd love to make a million in a year. And I did. I'm like, oh, that was pretty boring. Mmm. Added 10 million. I think 10 million is my sweet spot. I love going 0 to 10, 10 to 20 has not been as fun because it's a proven concept and you just refine the systems. Maybe 10 to 100 would be fun. I don't know. I'm not going to try it because I don't want to have heart attacks and not good sleep at night and be fucking stressed to my eyeballs. So.

Yeah, interesting. And the team behind it all, then. I know. I think you mentioned before, like a year, whenever ago, that you had a shitload of people.

Is it.

Is it as. How many? Is it like. Is it as many? What does it look like?

We've managed. We've managed to downsize. We've downsized because of a few different things we've built on the back end that just made certain people redundant. But we've got like 100 hourly staff. Well, team members, contractors. I couldn't even put a number on the number of like freelance designers we have because every single order, when I say we've done 20 million in a year, last year, every single dollar was related to an order that required a human on the end of a computer to design something by hand, which is insane. On Photoshop. Yeah, by hand, on Photoshop with a tablet. And this is something that I'm a mate, Carl reminds me of quite frequently. Like, it's impressive enough scaling to that level. It's fucking insane to think that you've scaled a custom design business at the end of the day to that level. Every order required someone to design something. It's not as simple as we got the order. All right, China. Hi. Ship it here. Cheers.

Yeah. Do you not think, in a way, though, I mean, as an observation, I suppose that's probably what has also enabled it to scale to that point because, A, there's less competition because most people can't fucking figure out how to do it. And secondly, like, the perceived value to a customer is way higher, which is obviously what I was trying to do with the Neon shit. Yeah, it didn't work out because it was fucking. Yeah, if there was a Neon on demand supplier, then maybe that would be different.

But yeah, no, I would agree this. The barrier to entry is higher than other types of E commerce business, but it's not too high that you can't enter it. And I've seen that from copycats, but we just deal with them and shut them down and make it so they can't be profitable. Or they're making 100 quid in sales a day, spending 90 quid on Facebook and I got like a quid profit or something. It's like, yeah, yeah, go away.

And so just going back to the team. So, 100. Whatever. Like, do you know the exact number? I was just roughly, like, 100.

100, 100. I would. I mean, it goes up and down every. Every month.

Like, and everyone's full.

Well, most people full time.

They're not 100 employees, they're 100.

No, they're all contractors.

Every single one.

99.

Yeah. And are they overseas? Philippines.

Yeah.

Yeah. And do you use an agency or is that literally all, like, upwork, all in house. All in house, as in, like, you hire manually hire every single one.

I don't hire them anymore.

Yeah, yeah, but. Yeah, but this, like, it's not an agency that's in between. No, because I used an agency called Go to Impact. No, you were good, by the way.

Yeah, I would love to try that out in the future, potentially, because it can be a headache, but at the same time, me saying it's a headache is kind of demeaning to my department managers, who, if you listen, which you probably are, have been with me since dropshipping. They've been with me for, like, five years. Can't fault them. Like, my CS manager attends pretty much every gorgeous webinar there is, and she is so excited to tell me about the new stuff that's rolling out, and she's so passionate about what she does, and I can just trust them to build teams, put stuff in place, you know, manage people, analyze performance, remove people when they need to be removed, hire new people.

That's what you need.

Cyclical and, you know, teaching them new stuff that I need them to know. Like, okay, November, December. That's go time. How do we avoid backlogs with emails? Because 2019, not only did we have a backlog of orders, but I was sat in a Starbucks in Bangkok answering customer service emails because it was 4,000 emails that hadn't been replied to in over three days.

Because of the checkout.

Not because of the checkout, because no one had the fucking orders on time. Yeah. So, you know, I'm not afraid to dive in, but I was like, right, we need to. I don't know why we didn't do this in the first place. It's stupid. A business so big didn't have an order forecast. And then work it back to, okay, how many incoming tickets do you have per order? Okay, how many tickets we replying to per hour? Okay, how many staff do we need to deal with this many incoming tickets? Yeah.

Had a similar issue in Neon, to be fair.

Like, we did it in 2020 and it was different ball game. It was like smooth. It was just ridiculously easy. So. Yeah. But I'm excited for where it's gonna.

Go and just on that then because I think a lot of people right now, like, like I said at the start, I mean it's fucking big business. Particularly given, you know, seems pretty lean. Like you don't have an office or anything, do you?

No.

You just work from home.

Well, I mean I've had the office experience with you and I was like commuting for an hour there and back.

What's the point? Yeah, no, I completely agree. Especially obviously Covid, like a lot. I think a lot of people, I think office offices as a whole have like shifted in.

Yeah. I mean if you go back to the whole positivity thing, like I'll wake up one day and be like, I'll be sick to have an office and like build an in person team and just get to the best, the best talent in Leeds or London or wherever. I just build this giant company and then I give myself a slap around the face and I'm like, no, you won't enjoy that. You'll be bored after six months and then you've got all these responsibilities, all these staff to keep on the payroll and make sure they can feed their families or whoever, pay the rent.

Yeah, I think, yeah, you're a really good example of that because it's definitely a bigger business than most businesses in the UK that have an office, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I mean, obviously. But yeah, I think a lot of people that particularly like the econ space maybe haven't started at all. It's because I have no context. So like I want to build the next gym shark.

Like.

Of course you do because it's fucking, it's in the media everywhere. But yeah, I mean, I can probably say I don't think I want to do that. You know, fucking. I don't know. Whatever it is, 500 million billion revenue now and like, you know, a thousand employees just. It's definitely badass. I want to do it.

Yeah.

Cuz like right now you could fuck off anywhere in the world as you do regularly. Probably more regular than you were.

More regular now. Yeah, definitely.

Because just on that as well, because you definitely traveled, I think like quite a bit less than I did over the past few years.

Yeah. 100, I think when.

That's probably why you're doing better than me right now. But.

Well, I've always thought that like, you know, like the whole sliding Doors thing, because you were always saying, yeah, come to Bali. Come to Bali with, you know, all the lads that you were there with. And I always wanted to go, but. But I always didn't. And I always think, shit, if I'd have gone to Bali, I wonder where I'd be now. Would I be running a smaller business or a bigger business or. Yeah, totally different. Like, what would be.

It probably depends on the person, to be honest. You can absolutely build a massive business being a nomad. I honestly think you can. It's just about knowing.

But it's funny because, like, chatting to.

Eddie, everyone's got different things and he's.

Living with Tim and some other people and obviously you were in Bali with those guys. And I think I probably would have ended up just moving to London and I probably would be mates with a lot more. Well, would be. Makes a lot more people down here. But I don't think I'd be running as big a business as I am because removing myself from that has allowed me to be with my mates from home who I absolutely love and keep me grounded, but also just work away in. In the background and not care about fucking Instagram and Lambos and fucking all that shit.

Yeah, I think. I do think it depends on the person, though, because for me, like, if I'd stayed fucking living in York, I know for a fact I fucking hate my life, I might have a better business, but I just hate it. Right. So I think it's just being. So it comes down to being self aware. It's quite interesting, though, because two previous guests, one episode. Yeah, one episode will be up now. Jordan from movie, similar to you, like, still lives where he's from. He actually lives with his parents. I know you don't. You live in a fucking bougie house. You've been. But. And he was saying a similar thing. Like, for him it works. He likes being with friends that. That aren't actually doing the same.

Yeah.

Keepsing More focused, etc. Etc. And yeah, I can definitely see that. It just.

I think definitely there's pros and cons. And what I'll say is I will definitely. I'll say definitely, most likely either rent somewhere or buy like a second place in London just because I can come down and benefit from the network here.

Yeah.

I'm not saying I'm using the people down here just for the network because I'll have a good laugh and it keeps you mindless.

I bang on about network. It's probably just I prefer living there because I can go to cool places.

Yeah, fair enough.

Whereas if I'm in York, like, or even Leeds, I mean, I don't know Leeds as well, but there's not as much going on. I say that and then I don't. Then I don't go and do anything.

I mean, yeah, I don't really go out, like, into town much anymore anyway.

Yeah, neither do I.

Saying that I did the other week, but the hangovers, mate. Yeah, legit for me. But, yeah, I definitely do a lot more traveling now. But, yeah, free.

So one thing that I want to bring up then, because it's quite an interesting one. So the whole Forbes 30 in the 30 thing, it's obviously. You were on that. It's in your Instagram bio.

Yeah.

Which. Just playing devil's advocate, if you're not about that Instagram Flex, why is that in your Instagram buyer? Yeah.

So it's been in and out.

I'll open with that.

Yeah. I mean, for me, the Forbes 330 thing is an accolade that gives you.

Like, genuine credibility.

Yeah. Credibility in the space. And it's. I was proud of it, and it was validation from peers that this guy's doing well. Whereas a Lambo post photo of a Lambo or some super yacht or summer. Right, Cool. Yeah.

No, I agree in that respect.

Cool. Like, but what value does this. Like, I. I feel like having that there, and I've had a few people, like, message me, like, asking for help and advice and stuff, and I'm happy to give it. I've just opened up a can of worms there. I haven't. I'm gonna have people messaging me.

Just block them.

Nah, it's just an indicator that, okay, this guy knows what he's on about. And they will, like, people will take me seriously. Like you saying with the whole podcast thing, if I reached out to someone on Instagram, which has happened already.

Yeah.

And ask them a question about business, if they check my profile, they're gonna be like, oh, this guy isn't a fucking knob, Ed. Like, he's actually doing something. Yeah. He's not one of those million people who have business ideas that want. They want to help me. Yeah.

No, 100%. See that? Just.

Yeah.

How did that come about then, though?

Because, I mean, I mean, I wanted.

I've heard, like, you know, I've I've just heard people in circles say, like, it's not as exclusive as it used to be, or, like, it's more broad than people think. Like, I'm not saying it's not cool. Because I haven't got it. But they've definitely.

And I've never, I've not really. It's something. When I first saw it I was like 17, 18 probably.

Yeah.

And I thought that's what I want to do. Like that's the. I, I thought at the time that's like the pinnacle of being an entrepreneur. Been on yeah. List because you're young and successful and that's what I wanted to be. And so when the time came where I felt that was in a position to potentially get on it, I was like, let's just fucking go for it. I spoke to my mate who knew a guy who'd been on it the year before and I was asking him about this guy's business. He was like, this is a really close mate of mine who was talking to me about this and he's like, yeah, yeah, you need, you need to apply because you'll definitely get it. I was like, well, fuck it. Like, I've wanted this since I was 17, 18, I'll just do it. And I didn't really expect anything from it. But yeah, I had interviews. They checked, you know, claims and, and whatnot and like charitable donations that we claim to have made and all this. And they're like, yeah, this guy's actually built a big business. He's done what he said, he's not lied to us and he, you know, he's worthy of coming on it. But what I'll say is it's definitely opened up. Like they had one list originally, I think, and now there's like 30 under 30 lists in every continent and then you have it in E Comm and in like.

So what list were you on?

E Comm, uk, E Commerce, Europe.

And do you have to apply for it?

Because like, you don't have to apply for it. You can, you can be.

Could you possibly build like an underground billion pound crypto company at 21 and not be on it? Is what I'm saying?

100%.

100%. Like, is everyone that's on it, you can, they all applied?

No, you can be, you can be submitted or you can apply yourself. So I, I applied myself but was also. Submitted is the wrong word, but whatever the word is. Yeah.

I'm just jealous really.

Someone said this guy should be on it and then I applied for it and then got it.

But yeah, I think you definitely should be on it. From what I know.

It'S annoying because they had like an in person event in Detroit last week and I can't go because of COVID still, so.

But what. So every 13 to 30 in the world.

No, no, no. Like it's open invite as well. But you have to. I guess you have to pay to go. I don't know. Because Jason Wong, I want to say is his last name. The guy on in. He owns Dough Lashes.

Yeah, he's. I didn't know who he is, so.

He was there. Post on Instagram was like, you. I really want to be there. No, he's just there. He's just there. But there's like a slack thing that you get added to with like pretty much every other list are there. But I don't have the time to, you know, go through all these people and decide who I want to connect with. It was literally for me, like I wanted it since I was 17. It's there in front of me. All right, grab it. And that was it. And then I realized me. I can't believe this was what I thought was like the Pinnacle bin. But like, come on. It's just. And everyone at home was like, me. That's so sick. But like just ridiculous.

We were in Forbes magazine.

No, I doubt it. I don't think so.

I don't know the magazine anymore. Yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, I guess the Forbes.

Cover would be like the next level.

I know some sketchy guys who've been on covers of similar as well.

And it's Entrepreneur magazine and shit. What's that other one? Founder magazine.

Founder.

I've got this crooked story on that. Just to go slight tangent. Who's the founder of. Who's the founder of Founder Magazine? It's fucking Nathan Chan. So him and Greta Van Real, who's absolute. That beast. Yeah. She had like multiple brands. Whatever it is. She was probably one of like the earlier people that was a brand builder that like built a personal brand that I knew of, etc. Ended up meeting her and Nathan. I don't know if you're at this event in Barcelona.

No, July 20, VIP ticket. And I was. This is when your Rolex got stolen.

Yeah, it is. This is when my Rolex got stolen. This was. This is a good story. So there was like some. It was for the event and I had a VIP ticket. I remember going with Tim Caldwell if he's watching. Fucking funny bloke. To like the speakers. I think he was a speaker actually, which I still think is funny. Sorry, no offense, Tim. You know, it's all good.

But I think just to put in. And no offense to Tim, because I don't really know him that well. But from what you guys said and from his numbers at the time and he was invited to be a speaker, it just shows you that people just be plucked out of nowhere to speak at these events without having like a reference check or a background check or. And Tim's like a legit guy, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, it's funny because I remember taking the piss out of him at the time and he himself was laughing. But yeah, I'd have fucking done it. Like, it's a good.

Oh yeah.

Big good experience.

Yeah, 100%. But what I'm saying is like these. And I think this is what you're getting out with the COVID of Founder. A lot of these companies running these.

Well, I was getting on a slightly different point, but it's like, yeah, you.

Don'T even know who the fuck you listen to half the time. Like that we in Barcelona, there was so many black heart freaks.

There was literally a black hat meetup. And I remember saying, what's black hat? And they were like, no, no, literally, this is like we sell.

We sell fucking crack cocaine pipes on Facebook.

It was literally that shit. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, what the fuck are you doing here? I thought this is a legit.

Yeah, it's just funny. This is that econ convention. Yeah. If you've not been to an E Comm convention and you're interested. No, I would say go to one.

Yeah. I'm joking.

Definitely pissed five nights in a row and just laugh.

Yeah.

But don't go to it to like. Well, I guess in a way it's inspiring. But don't.

What I was gonna say to learn some really like high level secret.

Don't expect it to change your life because it's, it's, it's there. You'll go and meet some expensive, high margin tickets sold to impressionable young people. That so. But the thing with Founder. Yeah, it was. I just remember getting really pissed and then ended up at a bar with him and a bunch of other people. But he was just so pissed and it's just fucking funny.

And isn't he really short as well?

Really? Yeah, yeah, he's really small. He's really small. He's a really nice guy. It's just funny because he's really drunk, really Australian and really small.

Right, right.

And he was saying a lot of shit, I think. One thing I remember him saying, I.

Don'T know why it was.

I think.

I think it's because I.

Because I had that Rolex that got stolen and he said, rollie, Before Rolex, as in he said, you need to get a Rolls Royce before you get a Rolex. And I was like, wait, what? A Rolex is like six grand. The one I had a Rollies rolls Royce, like 200 grand. What do you mean? It was just some weird drunk shit, but I just remember it distinctly not get any.

Any of them.

It was funny.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah. Where was I? The Forbes. 30 into 30, so.

Found a mag cover. Oh, that was. Okay, that was a tangent you went on.

Okay, Forbes, I want to go on another tangent then. And I don't know if you'll let me speak about this shit, but obviously you don't have. You've not done, like the fucking super. We'll come on to that in a minute. Like the cars and shit. But you didn't really put that on, like, Instagram or anything. And Forbes thing came about, what, like a year ago?

Yeah, about six months ago.

When did you break up with your ex girlfriend? She gonna watch this?

Doubt it. After that, definitely.

You were with her for a while, weren't you?

We were together for probably about four years.

Was that from uni or after you. Yeah, after uni and we living together?

No, it was never a serious, like, this is the future kind of thing. It's very chilled, casual. But it was four years.

It's still. Yeah. And was it amicable when you broke up?

Very amicable.

Fair enough. I thought I was gonna get some. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, it was very amicable.

Have you had any female attention from the forum saying. Not that you wouldn't get it otherwise, but you're pretty ghost, you know, on social media.

I couldn't tell. It probably is because of that. There has been like, the odd. You know, there's people. Yeah, but you kind of. This, you know, this is a thing. So this is quite a good topic. So the first. After I. We split up, the first thing one of my best friends, probably my oldest friend, told me was, you need to be careful now, mate. I was like. And a few other friends said the same thing.

You need to be careful because you've got money. Yeah.

And then I said some. I was like, really upset about that. And I chat to my mom and she's like, adam, and you have a good judge of character. You know, people's intentions. Don't be stupid. It's like a. Yeah, actually, she's right. Yeah. Like, there's been. I. I went on a date with this girl and, like, the first date was, like, proper good. Got on really well. I was all right. Cool. Organize the second date. And when was this?

In recent months.

Maybe this is before I went to Portugal for the second time. So July.

Yeah.

And me, I was like, like the second date, it was just like, it was so boring. Like she was real. I realized, so the first day you get to know each other.

How did the first date come about?

Adapt an app. So I was like, right, now go for a little few drinks, blah, blah. It got on well, but you don't, you don't really get to know a person on the first date. You just can't. Second date. It was quite obvious that there was a chasm between us in terms, in terms of like what we're interested in. And I was like, this girl is not for me. And yeah, and she was into just posh is expensive. Not necessarily expensive, but just like posh, like boring. And I was like, nah, not for me. And then you think back because of what my mates have said, I think, oh, maybe it was because of this, maybe it was because of that. And she's turned up and I'm here just casually as Yorkshire lad, probably thinking I thought this guy was rich and all this shit. I don't know, it just maybe, maybe it wasn't that, you know, maybe it's just because of what people have said to me. I have it ringing in the back of my mind like it must have been because of that. But anyway, yeah, that was just one person. There are plenty of well intentioned girls in the world. They're. Yeah, they definitely outnumber the ill intentioned girls.

Well, I think that's another debate. But. Okay, well no, I will admit, like particularly when three, four years ago, whatever was like doing well drop shipping and then doing well with like the brands had the fucking fancy car and shit, I very much flexed it on social media and to be honest, I flexed it on social media because I wanted to get girls.

Yeah.

And it fucking works.

From everyone that does it.

And it works. It wasn't. I wasn't even doing it for like people to see. I was doing it because I wanted to.

As long as you're aware of it's gonna attract.

Yeah, and I was. And I definitely wouldn't do it as much now. And I've well got a girlfriend now. Depends if she's watching, which she won't be. Which is kind of part of the problem. Well, not the problem, but I think.

You should stop talk.

Yeah, I've got a girlfriend now, but there's been arguments lately. Nothing to do with this. But yeah, and I did That a lot. Like I'll be the fucking first to admit. Like there's a question I'm gonna ask after this. Because yes, I had the fucking cars and shit and I flexed it and still love cars. You know, I don't have a car right now, which actually is fucking, in a way actually quite refreshing.

Yeah, traffic here is shit anyway.

So why. You've never really done that whole. No, you're a simple. Definitely a. Well, you're a less material. You're a less materialistic man than I was certainly in my earlier 20s. Even though. Yeah, you were doing big enough. Well, as big. And recently bigger numbers than I was.

Ever doing, I guess.

Where do you stand on that? I know recently.

Well, to be honest to your podcast, I think it was with Tyler and you kind of changed my opinion on it.

Is that why I bought the fucking new Defender?

No, I was getting that cuz my dog. So when you talked about the network, it like instantly unlocks having a supercar and meeting these people. I thought actually that makes sense to me that. So I think kind of differently to you guys. I guess that makes sense to me. That's a good reason to have a supercar, to meet these interesting people that are perhaps going to unlock new experiences for me later in. Later in life and blah, blah, blah, blah. What I don't see is a good reason to buy one of these is because I need some likes on Instagram, I need some more followers. I need some people to think I'm fucking cool. I don't care. Like I need some girls to DM me because I need an ego boost.

Yeah. I mean, to be fair, just to put. I was obsessed with cars. That was the first reason.

The reason I posted it was because.

For girls.

But it's like I would happily have.

Had it if I couldn't post it.

I would. My mind is changing slightly as time goes by, but yeah, I spend more money on right some. So my. My drive and my motivation is just the freedom and just having the. Like this, this thought in the back of my mind that if anything goes wrong, I'm gonna be good. I can go live wherever I want, do whatever I want, when I want, with who I want. And if everything went to. With my, like my trading business, yeah, I would still be fine. So that's why I'm spending more on houses and assets and things like that as a. Well, I guess a car. Let's not go into that.

Your car's not an investment.

But that's why I'm spending it on like rentals instead of fast pieces of metal. I'll buy one eventually, I'm sure of it. Because it would be fun to have.

And you're a little more sensible than me.

Yeah. But at the same time I like experiences like. Like spending a fair bit of money just going random place. Like just come back from Costa Rica for two weeks in Morocco, 10 days surfing.

Yes.

Meeting cool people there as well. It's like you don't have to just network of entrepreneurs because.

Oh no, I agree.

These guys are fucking cool. And yeah, it's. Yeah, I'm enjoying it. It's good.

So you started doing that more lately. I've noticed like the whole. You think you did the surfing stuff and like have you just had like an awakening? Because obviously you did that like less. Less travel. Obviously not traveling full time or anything.

And awakening. It was obviously no longer been in a relationship. It was certainly not her. It was no one's fault. What I'm saying is I didn't come to Bali with you because I felt guilty that I'd be leaving my girlfriend behind. Not that she would have cared. Because I think we both deep down knew this is a casual thing. You know, if one of us wants to go off and move somewhere else and so be it, it's not going to work. So split up. And I think deep. Well, deep down we both did know that. But I kind of, I guess use the relationship as an excuse not to come to Bali and do that. And because I didn't do that then, I'm doing it now.

It's got more time now. Yeah, yeah.

And I don't have the guilt of our. Like, what's she gonna think? I think, oh, my dog's gonna be on his own.

So where'd you put the dog?

My mom or my brother will look after him. So.

Yeah.

He has been in a kennel for like two weeks before now and he was fine. He's like Rufus, man. He doesn't give a.

Get someone shout out Rufus.

Shout out Rufus.

How old is he? He's the same as Tokes.

How old's Tokyo?

16 months.

Rufus's birthday is on the 22nd of May.

So is this 12th of June. So very similar.

Yeah.

Shit, is it 16 months or whatever? June, July, August, September.

Yeah. A month younger than Rufus. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely enjoying where I'm at right now and just getting a good balance as well. Just between working.

Yeah. So like your day to day then? I think we've spoken about this a bit. Like, what's that? Whatever like, are you working? Firstly, more or less than you used to, like, time wise. And secondly, how does that time look compared to how it used to look when you first get started in the trenches?

Bit more. That's a hard one. And if my parents listen to this, they'll be like, yeah, he's such a liar. Because there will be. There's been multiple times where I've complained, like, I'm so bored, I've got nothing to do. All the work's just, just automated. And then like a week later I'm like, no, I don't have time. I'm so stressed. Got so much to do. Sorry, I'm too busy because I'm so erratic or have been erratic. I kind of managed to settle that down a bit recently. So generally the working day or week looks like a couple of calls that will tend to be half an hour to an hour long with various different people. Whether it's my internal team agencies we work with or more recently and more often now, new opportunities that I'm trying to pursue. So getting financing for certain projects we want to start or ideas I have, like speaking to manufacturers, speaking to a branding expert that I work with quite frequently now, developers to, you know, we're coming up with new ideas for redesign the website or add a new feature that's going to potentially move the needle in the right direction. But I'm not in the trenches. Actively setting up email marketing campaigns, checking the ads. Yeah, all that stuff. I don't, I don't, I'm not. I maybe logged into my Facebook ads account for the first time this week and it's. I hadn't logged in for maybe like three or four months because I've got an ads agency to do that. And they check in and they show me the account on the call and they'll tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go in and spend half an hour trying to figure out.

Yeah, so if you got abducted for three months, weird way to put it. If you fucked off for three months, would the business be good? Would it keep going? Like, how much you needed at all?

Right, keep going. Someone needs to pay off the amex card, but I'm sure, I'm sure someone will sort out. No, it. If I got abducted, well, yeah, I'm gonna have to log in and do something. I need to pay people. I still, I still don't trust anyone to actually like press the, the submit button when I'm sending all everyone's wages each week. I, I don't I don't trust people to pay our suppliers the correct amount. Even though the invoice is every week and it says it in black and white, I still don't trust people to pay off the Amex cards and stuff. I could, but I guess it's just me holding on to something to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, paying, paying bills. Fun.

And where do you want to go with it then? So, yeah, like. So is there like a clear plan to do X in X amount of time or. Right now you're just enjoying what you're.

Doing and there isn't like a financial goal anymore. There is an idea that I want to pursue that no one that I know of as pursued yet. And I think I'm probably the person to do it just from having done Crown and Poor, which is acquiring businesses in this space, leveraging the assets and the resources, the infrastructure we have, and building a group of, say, gifting businesses. Basically. I don't want to kind of get myself cornered into, oh, this guy only sells custom pet portraits. We can branch out and be a gifting company at the end of the day. Also looking at. I can't really go into detail on this, but more a subscription thing, which does tie into some existing websites we have. And then we've got two Shopify apps that we're developing at the moment. And obviously we have our software that we have considered rolling out as well in terms of software as a service business. And then also, I'll probably just take a chunk of money each year and move it into the property business. Buy some more rentals. And me, I mean, I'm moving into that space a bit as well and meeting people like, who are doing cool in property. And a friend of mine who actually used to. He's pretty much managed Tiger Wednesdays in after I'd graduated is he works in property. And he's always saying, like, let's go build some houses, because that's what he does day in, day out. But he does it for someone else. And I trust him because he's like, we've worked together before. I didn't really see it as him working for me, even though technically it was. It was. We were working together, he was running the business for me, I did fuck all. So I trust him to do a good job. So I have the money at some point, I don't know how much we're gonna need. And we'll go into it and build some houses probably and see where that takes us. But that's gonna be more of a side thing. And I think he knows that. And if he's listening, you know that now I'm not going to be there every day. Yeah. Doing so.

Similar thing that me and Tyler, I think, spoke about in episode four. He should probably speak to you about the property shit, to be fair, maybe because we were saying, like, you know. So I guess the question is, if, like, someone came along today and just fucking gave you 100 million quid, would you keep building, firstly that business, any business, or. And what would you do? Because I think it's a good question to ask. Obviously it's hypothetical, it's never going to be 100 accurate if it actually happened. And because I said I think I'd keep building stuff, but that's potentially naive.

Yeah, well, Tyler's episode, was he like episode two or three, four, and he said, I've got this mate who said he would probably just off surfing. That was me, guys, just for reference.

So did he say that?

No, you said that.

Oh, I said that, yeah. No, sorry, I was referring to you. Yeah, Because I think we'd have this discussion before.

Yeah. We were like, what's up, what's up? Or something. Yeah, because I was talking about selling and all this shit.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

100 mil.

Well, the 100 mil is just to say, you know, money was no problem and you just. Whatever, fuck your money.

Like, I definitely take some time out. I'd say like at least six months just to myself, just getting loads of stuff out my system, doing what I want to do. Go see some cool places, do some cool shit.

Yeah.

I will get bored and will undoubtedly build something. I couldn't tell you what I'd build. I couldn't even tell you what, you know, what niche or industry. But it would be something that has. Well, I would like to think would have an impact on people's lives who are definitely not as well off as most people. I think most entrepreneurs would do that point you become more of a philanthropist at that point because it's fun. But I think once you've. Once you've done it. And yeah, Crown and Poor is not anywhere close to these huge brands getting big exits like movement watches, gymshark, which is fucking gigantic. Nothing like that. It's a totally different ball game. But I've kind of experienced 0 to 20, 30 mil and I've had that experience. Like, I want a different experience. So maybe I'll take that money and buy a shit ton of businesses, do them up, flip them. I don't know. I have no idea. To put it.

Yeah, it's obviously, it's kind of like a psychological.

Yeah. But I wouldn't sit around on my ass for the next 50 years till I die. I would definitely move in. And, yeah, I would get bored of just like traversing the world with my dog. Although he'd love it. So.

Yeah. Because just on that again, we're speaking about this, like, briefly before we start recording. Obviously, I'm, as I've said a billion times, a podcast. I'm. I've been building this new brand because I just needed to get the next thing fucking going. But, yeah, like, I've kind of realized I feel like I'm probably done with the whole, A, like, bootstrapping it. So, like, just funding it all myself. Not that I need other people's money to do it. Certainly not the start, but. And then B, just like doing it myself. Because that's the thing with, like, Ecom. Particularly when it's like, even like you, you've got 100x people, but ultimately still you sat in your house every day on a computer. Not there's anything wrong with that, but, like, I quite like the idea of the next thing trying to go. And this is something I couldn't have done in the past and didn't have the experience, connections, whatever. Like trying to, like, fucking raise a load of money with a bunch of ridiculously smart people and try and do something like, a bit more monumental, a bit more like still E Comm. And this next brand will be E Comm. I'm starting it with a product which is a bit more standard, but I have this idea of a long story. Yeah. Basically want to go into the fucking psychedelic, like, mental wellness space through different products and shit. But that's. That's the sort of thing, like I've had a few meetings recently and it's like, that's the sort when you start speaking to the right people, it's like, fuck. That's the sort of thing which, yeah, potentially you're talking about, like, building a science company. Not just like, see, that's cool. That's what I mean.

Yeah.

Because I've been thinking about that.

Yeah.

So I don't think I can focus.

On the thing again.

You can have a big. From.

From someone, I think, having the chat before the podcast, you know, I'm in the process of trying to raise funds for a project. I don't necessarily need the funds, but. And we probably will use our own funds for the first part of this, but if it goes well, then I'm gonna be straight down to London, speaking to all sorts of people. Yeah, because I feel like I'm going to enjoy what we're building or trying to build. And if I do enjoy it, then I will go down the route of building that, you know, 100 mil, 50 mil, 100 mil. I don't want to get ahead of myself.

5 billion.

Yeah, fuck it. And I will go down that route because I enjoy it. But if I find out from this first acquisition that I don't enjoy it, then I won't do it. But, you know, you're never gonna know without trying. But yeah, the whole raising money, like. So as we were saying before the podcast, I've kind of glamorized the idea of bootstrapping. I always wanted to be that guy that just bootstra.

I think a lot of younger entrepreneurs do that, have some experience, I think.

Because we at that time, money is the be all and end all, and we put it on a pedestal. We both have, let's be honest, wanted money so bad. And because you have that in your mind, you think that it's so fucking scarce. And there's no fucking way that investor will give me 10 grand, 100 grand.

But I guess just on that, it is scarce when you have no experience.

It is.

But then when you hear experience, we.

Could have some fucking 19, 20 year old sat over there and I'd be telling them, like, lads, you. They have this idea and they tell me their idea, they want some cash. I'm like, all right, let's do it. But I want a percentage. But if that was me, I'd be scared shitless trying to approach someone.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But now we're here, I'm like, fuck me. There's so much money around for. People don't want to be sat on the cash. They want to be seeing people using it, putting it to good use, building cool stuff that helps people.

Yeah, just on that. So I won't say his name, but I had a meeting through a DM the other day, guy I look up to in similar space, and he actually put some on Instagram announcing the exit of his brand. I'm trying to think if I can say it because it's in a public domain. But, yeah, I won't sell his name. And he was saying he. He recognizes that, like, it was e commerce, E commerce changed now. So, like, it's definitely not as easy to start with, like, no money as it was. However, on the flip side, and I've started seeing this just in the past year, like, just by reading shit, there's more private money and like PE money, like VC money going towards E Comm and fintech probably more than anything else in the past fucking year than there's ever been ever. And obviously again, it comes down to, you know, fucking investment funds aren't going to give you money if you've never done anything. But if you've got any form of like, just, like, if you just. If you have. If you have it and you've got a decent idea, etc. Etc. And yeah, that phrase just kind of changed my mind. It's changed the way I look at things because, yeah, like, like you say bootstrapping is so glamorized. That particular. Like, it's almost like you want to be. And I'm guilty of it as well. You almost want people to think like, I'm working 18 hours a day, when actually you're working 12 hours a day. If you think you're working 18, you're probably working 12. You want people to think like, I hate my life. The whole Gary Vee thing. Yeah. And that probably was. I've only recently, swear to God, only in the past year because of, like the shit I went through and stuff. I reckon now, even when I'm properly grinding out, probably work eight to nine hours a day, tops.

Yeah, I don't do that. Do you know what? Even when we had the office, that was when you two were getting up at like 5am and getting to the office at 6.

I wouldn't do that now.

Fuck are these guys doing? And I would turn up at like 9, you'd be like, oh, you're late. Like, what?

Yeah, that was Gary Vee, I'm telling you right now. Even he has changed his tune now on that, though.

But it's just. It's just damaging, like, no money.

It's mentally damaging. I agree.

Yeah. I forgot what we're talking about.

Oh, you were going to say the points on having it.

Yeah, the phrase have it, have it. It's so you can't put your finger on what it is. But you know when someone has it and it's. I can't even explain this very well on the podcast, but like, so you have friends who have these ideas, but they're idea people and they will have these ideas all their life and they're like, I'm going to do this, I'm.

Going to do that.

Yeah, they don't have it. Then there's people like us who you might tell a few people, I'm going to do this. But more often than not, you'll just do it and then say, oh, I did this thing.

Or you'll tell them and then it will actually be there in a month.

Yeah, you'll tell them and you'll do it. And one of my pet peeves. And I could, I could rant about this for ages. And people in the past have got annoyed with me for saying being so harsh about people needs to be said. Say they're going to do shit and don't do it. It annoys me. It's wasting my time. Stop asking me for advice about this business you're never gonna start. You know you're not gonna start it. Stop. Like just don't waste my time about it. Yeah, but. Yeah, I couldn't tell you what it is, but you know when someone has.

It, there's probably a like psychological.

Yeah, well, this is. I found out a few days ago. Tell people about this. This post popped upon on my Instagram. It was like the Wonderlust gene. I was like, that's bullshit.

The Wanderlust.

The Wanderlust gene. I was like. So I was like straight onto Google.

The psychopath gene, Wonderlust gene.

And it was like DRD4R7 or something. I was like, oh, holy shit. This is, this is a thing. So I was reading about it.

Oh, it's real. It's not a concept. No, it's real.

I thought someone had just like, oh, I'm gonna make this cool post about like wanderlust and shit. Yeah, it's real. It's this gene. They're giving it this nickname Wanderlust gene. Call it the Gambler's gene if you want. Because reading about it, it turns out kind of predisposes people who have this mutation. Well, it is, it's mutation. And I'm not a scientist, so don't like fucking come for me if I get this wrong. But people who have this are more predisposed to risk taking. They don't get excited by the shit usual people get excited about. And my mom has told me since I was a kid, like, are you excited? I'm like, yeah, it should be good. She's like, I bet you're really excited. Just trying to be cool. I'm like, should I feel really something wrong with me?

Yeah.

Should I feel more excited? Like I'm not trying to play it cool, I'm just not that excited. And my ex girlfriend, when I bought this car, she's like, but you're so excited. I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be good. It's. Yeah. It's a car. She's like, oh stop. Like, surely you're excited. I'm like, shit, there must be something wrong with me. So I might actually do this test to see if I have this gene. But like gamblers have it, people who take risks have it, people who travel a lot have it. I'm not saying they all have it, but it predisposes you to have that kind of behavior. So.

Yeah, that's kind of deep.

Yeah. It's cool though because like my mom has told me so many times, I bet you're excited. I'm sat there like, should I be excited right now?

Well, I guess differently that comes on to a broader question and I'm actually a good example and I'll say the reason why in a minute. Knocks I'm fucking smoking, putting smoke in my own ass. But people say like, you know, generally speaking, like, are people born entrepreneurs or are they made entrepreneurs? That sort of shit. Yeah, I'm a twin.

Yes.

I haven't. That's why I'm saying a good example. Non identical twin. So technically it's the same as having just a brother that was in the oven at the same time. So different eggs and shit. Just a bit of biology. We look different, we are very different in a lot of ways. But it's the exact same upbringing, exact same school, everything. We even went to the same city for uni, went to Newcastle uni, went to Northumbria because I fucking fucked up my A littles because I was depressed and figuring out that I didn't want to pursue education. But. And we are like work wise, entrepreneurial wise, like the complete fucking opposite. He's an engineer, Rolls Royce, like great job and shit. Like definitely more like academically clever than me.

Yeah.

But like, and to be fair, and this is why it's an interesting example because he himself has tried like ecom and just doesn't have it.

Right.

So quit after like a month.

But what is it? That's the question. Well, is it the grit? Is it shit, I failed that I give up? Is it, how do I do this? Where do I start? What is it?

I mean, yeah, like whether it's E Comm or anything else, it's just because.

I. I mean it's totally different. But when I first started making money online and I'm talking I was making 200, 300 quid in sales with a drop shipping business. I started a Facebook group there and then because I knew number one, there's money in selling shovels and number two, fuck, I want My mates to do this so we can go travel. I wanted to build this business, work remotely. I wanted my mates to come with me on the journey. So I was like, right, I'll add some mates to this Facebook group. Not well. Maybe one of them followed my advice. The others said they were going to do it, didn't do it. And one of them is my friend Zach, who I've known since I was like 4 or 5 years old. And later down the line, he's like, you know what? I'm gonna try it. And he's quit his job and he's run an E commerce business now. So he clearly has it.

It.

It took, you know, he didn't. I don't know if he tried and failed when I first had him, this group, but he's working at End Clothing in Newcastle.

Oh, yeah.

Now he's running an ecom business. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. I've had maybe five or six notable friends over the years that have. I've helped him.

Oh, yeah. I know one of them very well. Fucking hell.

Oh, right. Okay. I wasn't actually thinking of him, but.

Me and Eddie were talking about that guy yesterday. Hell, yeah.

I haven't spoke to him in a while. I'm not gonna mention him on this, but haven't seen him in about a year, to be fair. But my experience of that is I it. And again, have to preface this sort of shit by saying. I'm not saying being an entrepreneur is better or worse, it's just different. Because in many ways I fucking wish I wasn't. Because I wouldn't have had the shittiest year of my life in the past year, for example. But the fact I'm still in the game says clearly I couldn't do anything else, so. And yeah, like, people that. And I've got like close friends and if they're watching this, they probably know who they are that, you know, they've said and people that aren't close friends from uni in the past or whatever, and they've, you know, help me start this econ thing, which for a start, they're only starting E comm instead of any other business that they could do because it's on me doing it, which is the wrong way to start anything. But secondly, like, the end of the day, like, I've not got much patience. People that talk, talk about doing something, not doing it. I think it's one of the most. I think it's one of the worst traits you can have in life, even on a smaller scale. Like don't say you're gonna start going to the gym every day and then not go. Yeah, because I'm not saying I'm perfect.

Every time you do that.

Just like a general rule of thumb, if you say you're gonna do something, either do it or admit that you weren't to do it and say, I don't wanna do it.

It creates a habit that you don't realize you're creating. Every time you say you're gonna do it and then don't do it, or you start and then stop. It makes it even easier to do that the second time, the third time, the fourth time. Muscle memory is like a mental memory.

Mental.

It's. It's crazy. Like, psychology is insane. And as soon as you. I think learning more about your psychology is one of the best things you can do if you're starting out as an entrepreneur. Like, I didn't read business books on how to make money and get rich. I read books by Malcolm Gladwell, like Blink Tipping Point outliers to this day. So good. And coming back to the twin thing, maybe because your twins is because one of you is why you're so far apart. Because you may be searching for an identity when you're younger and you. You have to differentiate yourself. If he's that, then I'm going to be this. I. We don't want to be the same with twins. We're similar enough already. We have to be different somehow. So maybe psychologically it's like distancing from each other in a different way.

Yeah, maybe, maybe. Although at the same time I can remember being, I don't know, roughly sort of 10, 12 years old, whatever, thinking, I know I want to do something different, but I don't even know what fucking business is at this point. And I didn't know what econ was properly until I was maybe sort of 17, 18.

Yeah. Yeah.

And even then I didn't have any.

Family members that have.

I have an uncle who's a serial entrepreneur.

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Absolute beast.

Yeah.

But not in E comm. And he actually didn't get started being entrepreneurs, that he was maybe 29. But I guess it's probably a bit different because it's a different generation. So it was kind of definitely different.

More interesting still.

But I see a lot of myself, well, a lot of me and him or whatever.

It's funny in it because I bet your parents.

Where's no one else in my family.

Really get it from. It's not us because my mum and.

Dad, my parents Aren't entrepreneur at all.

No.

Whereas my uncle is.

Yeah, my uncle. So I. When I was 14, I did my work x work experience at my uncle's graphic design slash signwriting business. And he's really the only entrepreneurial person over there myself in the family. And it's weird. Very strange. I mean, my granddad worked for himself, but not like from an entrepreneurship.

Yeah. I was just thinking, because obviously entrepreneurship is technically a word that humans have made up and.

Obviously. Yeah.

Right now I mean, like referring to business and shit. But going back to like this is going on fucking tangent. But so interesting. Going back to like caveman times. Obviously those genes and so on still existed.

Yeah.

So I wonder how it would have.

Looked like when they were caveman.

What did entrepreneurs look like 5,000 years ago whenever the fucking caveman age was.

Definitely the ones that discovered fire.

Yeah.

Probably Musk of the caveman.

It was, though. There was the dom that sat there just like.

Yeah.

Then there's the dom that's gone out and made a straw shelter and sold it.

That's it.

It's the guys got fish for people to use this draw shelter or something.

Yeah. The guys that realize you can draw shit on these walls with these bits of whatever they were using to draw. Yeah. Then he started selling them to the other cavemen for pieces of meat. That's. That's what the entrepreneurs did in. In that era. Yeah. That's cool, though.

Yeah. It's such a deep question.

It is. But I do think it's crazy how much like, psychology impacts your behavior and, you know, ultimately your outcome.

Like.

But there are. I think there are also ways probably to override it. Like if you have, like, I talk about wonderless gene, there's probably. I mean, you can override that. You can override a lot of stuff that you have that you're predisposed to be like. You can override it through nurture. Which is coming back to the twin thing.

Yeah. I think that this was the point I was going to make, actually. I just remembered the thing with that is I reckon you need something that starts you on that entrepreneurial path. Whatever. Like. Like ultimately, like, I chose. We chose to go to that event in Singapore and I still cite that now as shit as it was. It's like the first time I'd met other entrepreneurs and it changed my worldview.

Yeah.

Like, dramatically.

But the thing is, if I chose.

To go there, I might be saying no. Speak to you.

Yeah. And exactly the same. And you need that community. Like Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, blah, blah, blah. You need belonging.

Yeah.

And it's so easy for everyone else who isn't choosing this like entrepreneurial path to have community in their work, to have community and belonging with their friends that they can talk about about how much they hate the 9 to 5 job and can't wait for the weekend. It's so difficult for entrepreneurs to find that community and belonging. And then when you go to fucking Singapore, everyone is the same. You're like, fucking hell.

Yeah, you spray up another point actually. But yeah, that's so fucking true. But my point there was like, obviously that's where I think, yeah, actually something like a gene makes sense because like if I was whatever, 19, whatever, I was 20, 21 at the time that, you know, chose to do that. And obviously prior to that I chose to make a Shopify account when no one was forcing me, no one around me was doing it. But after that it's like people might say that they, you know, like friends when they're like, oh, I want to do it. When actually they want to do it because you've done it, but because they're now potentially in, I don't know, say they got a grad job and then now they want to start a business and then that's a much worse time to do it because now their surrounding is fucked. And there's a saying, some along the lines of like, experience breeds confidence. And so like, for example, like when I fucked up with Neon beach, like if I didn't know anyone else and that was the first thing I'd ever done, I might say, fuck yeah, Ecom's not for me. I might have said that. But I know that I did that in nine months when I've got it to like fucking 9 million in nine months or some bollocks. I'd done Midnight City, I'd done a clothing brand before. I know three or four good mates that are running brands that are all telling me, just do the next thing. Of course, because that's a different conversation. Whereas if you speak to someone that's never done that, they might say, oh.

Why would you want to get a job?

Yeah, exactly, that's what I'm saying. So experience breeds confidence. Like, yeah, that fucked me up for a while. But like I never for a second thought, I'm not gonna start the next thing and that be a success. Of course I'll start the next thing and of course it'll be a success.

Yeah, because.

Which is two sided. Firstly, because I know I've actually gone to the past.

I've never run a business in life thinking, what the fuck is he on about?

I just, I just genuinely, I don't even, I can't even see the risk like in starting a new business. I really can't. Like, I just feel that like yeah, I don't see it because I mean it's two sided. Firstly, because I've got experience and I have done it in the past and I'm not shooting blind saying like, for example, I wouldn't say I'm gonna go run a marathon and get a great time because I've never done it before and I don't train. But then the other side is even if I didn't have that experience and ultimately when you start and when I started and when you started, you don't have the experience. You still go into it thinking there's more to be gained than lost. And that's where, yeah, that has to be something in you. Because I didn't, you know, no one has any experience before they get experienced. By fucking definition. Yeah, but you still go into it thinking everyone else is saying, haha, why are you starting this business, you fucking loser? That's the. And you're doing it just to back yourself.

Interrupt slightly. Another thing that pisses me off is when people speak to me like, oh, I'm gonna start this business. I'm like, yeah, do it. Oh yeah. But I got no experience or I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. Don't know how to do Facebook ads. You think I was born knowing how to run Facebook ads? Didn't fucking exist. Like I had to learn. You need to go and learn. But anyway, back to it.

No, that's such a good point because like, genuinely I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I've been working on this new brand which is in a completely different. Don't know anything about the product. There's like two different products I'm working on but. And this is me with seven years experience, blah, blah, blah, like you know, I should have someone else doing it for me, as some people say. But like I would literally Google like, what is X?

Yeah, yeah.

What is fucking like what is this supplement that I'm interested in? And then I'll literally make a Google spreadsheet. I was doing this yesterday, so I'm not making this up. There's this product I'm trying to develop. I know nothing about it, but I know that it's cool. And I've been taking A similar one myself since this supplement. So I go on, I find 20 of the best looking brands that I found that sell something similar. I go on their fucking FAQs page, I find the ingredients they're using and then I never heard these ingredients. I put these ingredients in a Google spreadsheet, literally listen down. Then I start googling what is X? What is X? And you find Google has literally everything if you're willing to fucking search it instead of scrolling.

I think people don't realize that you actually have to put in the work they like, but they also don't realize.

How simple certain things are if they would just change the way they look at it.

Yeah, I think maybe they feel stupid for asking the stupid questions. But I asked really stupid questions in Murray's Facebook group. Like really stupid questions.

And I guarantee as well, like the most. I was actually watching Stephen Bartlett podcast from a while ago with some guy called.

Oh shit. I got a good story about Christian.

Angermeyer who I'd never heard of. This is actually where this came from. So some billionaire who I now know everything about because I fucking started Googling him for like three hours. And there was Peter Thiel was. I started reading this article about this guy. I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? Because he was in like the certain space that I'm now getting interested in and he's a billionaire and he was like 39. I was like, fuck, okay, self made all this shit. And there was like quotes of people talking about him and like some YouTube video and they just said so I think some like Forbes interview like why is he so successful? And the answer that someone else gave about him was because he's so curious and asks questions. Yeah, that was it. And that was Peter Thiel, who's the PayPal co founder. Yeah, that was saying I buy him. Like I'm not. Don't know the exact context that. But I just read that and thought, well of course. And like everyone's got a phone. But like it's not even. It's just such a basic thing. Yeah, but it's so important like the amount of time. I'm not joking. I must search define colon word because I don't know the meaning of something. At least once a day. I mean, not even joking, there'll be a new word I come across.

I mean people should be using the phones for that. More than scrolling influences feeds on Instagram.

I do that a little bit as well.

But like yeah, I mean so do I.

But I mean the amount of basic Google Search that I put in just to like find out shit per day is probably mad. And to a lot of people that would be like, oh, you're stupid. Why are you doing that? If you don't know it, you shouldn't do it. No, like the average person would say to me, trying to get into the space that I'm now interested in. Like, even my own parents would say this, to be honest. Yeah, but is that this actually a classic example. So like supplement product, which is what I'm doing on the next thing a consumable. The first thing my parents said to me and not talking shit, my parents. But like. And this is what a lot of people say is, oh, but that must be highly regulated. Like there must be. What if like a customer dies taking this? Like, firstly, like, obviously I've thought of that and then the answer to that is, well, just speak to a supplier, learn about it and white label a product to start with. So it's already been tested. All this. But secondly, if that's the first thought instead of me, I'm excited by this. Yeah, I'm getting butterflies.

Fail before you've started.

Like, that is why I think your point of. There's probably a fucking gene which would explain. There has to be something. Yeah, you're thinking there has to be something is what I'm saying because I would never even think that.

Yeah, well, that's if there is a gene. It's kind of sad because I would like to think that entrepreneurship can be developed in people. I can teach it in school.

Yeah, true. Tom. Billy speaks a lot about that because he said he was basically a loser until he was like 27 or something. And now he's a fucking billionaire or some shit.

I mean, could still be a loser if you're a billionaire.

Yeah, but like as in he wasn't an entrepreneur. Yeah, like he's just a lazy. And then he built.

All right, just like a lay about.

So yeah, because he talks about that. He says. Because it's a good point. But I feel like there has to.

Be something just touching going back to Steve Bartlett. So there's so much stuff I've brushed over that I did before I kind of moved into econ. So me and Zach, who I previously mentioned, started a vintage clothing business and we go to warehouses, buy all this.

I remember this.

And we go to. Because we both worked in events, we kind of knew how to promote events and we were marketers. You know, you'd create a Facebook event and invite us to the Facebook event. That's Marketing, isn't it? Anyway, this. This event in Nottingham somehow took off, so we went and rented this place. It's called. I can't remember what it called it. Really cool. Rented this place and we had this, like, vintage fair. But anyway, when we were going to get the clothing, we'd got a train because neither us could drive at this point. And now at the time, I was building for the business an app, an engagement app. Like, you know, all these, like, auto. Like auto follow things you can get from Instagram. I was building one for Depop, and if you don't know what depop is, like an Instagram ebay hybrid type thing. And no one had ever built one for Depop. And I was like, I'm fucking building this. I'm gonna make millions off it. So I built this thing and we started running it. We turned it on and it ran overnight. And it was like liking and following and commenting or every Depop account in fucking existence. And I woke up and we'd got like 30,000 followers overnight. Yeah. We'd followed like 3 million people. Some it was maybe not 3 million, but it was a lot. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I think I broke it. But there was clearly no, like. No, like, stoppers.

Yeah.

Like Instagram API, whatever. I'm not a developer anyway. Zach, man, like, this is insane.

Yeah.

So I was building that at the time. And anyway, I had followed Steve Bartlett and Dom McGregor. I think I've got Dom on Facebook and I've no idea why. Probably because I was a promo anchor. Never spoke to him in my life. But he's, like, looking for beta testers for this app. Anyone who does it or anyone who helps us out, I will owe a favor. Cash it in anytime. Not cashed it in yet. If you watch it, I hope they eventually watch it. Be great. I've not cashed this in yet. So I was a beta tester for, like, Bebo's Blab app. And it was like. It was basically a walkie talkie. It was a bit pointless.

Yeah.

The reason I opted in was because I was so interested in what these guys were building with these at the time. Big, like, Mimi Twitter accounts. They were buying them up and bringing them into, like, a group of.

And that became social chain.

That became social chain. But I followed Dom before I followed Steve. When he started Wall, I was following. Yeah. So for these guys. And the reason I bring him up now is obviously mentioned, but I bought Steve's book and he talks about just this emptiness that him and Dom felt when they went public with Social Chain.

Was that happy, sexy millionaire.

Yeah. Just this emptiness they felt. And I can I, I understand that feeling now because I was reading, I was like, what surely. And I've read it in the net. That will never work. The Netflix book, same feeling. They went, they, they went public and there was just no excitement. He was just empty.

Reed Hastings, the founder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously I'm not on a level with any of those guys, but I understand the emptiness because they've, they expect money to fill this void or this, like this to be the achievement. And with the Forbes 30 under 30 thing, I expected that to make me feel awesome. And I got it. I was like, oh, so now it's.

Like you're my entrepreneurial depression.

Yeah. So it's like figuring out because like making more money isn't going to make you more happy is like. Yeah, it's complicated. But yeah, the depop thing's a funny story. So. Yeah. Ended up with like a cease and desist from them a week later and end of story. Yeah.

Yeah. Just on that point you mentioned. I mean, yeah, I feel like everyone, obviously there's levels to it and yeah, you've definitely made more money than I have certainly in the past year. But like last year when Pete like things were going peak well for me and like my outlet was always cars. And like I think I said on the previous episode and it was like fucking spine chilling moment. But I just, yeah, I remember just kind of having that realization when I bought that Ferrari, which by the way, I didn't even like that car. The R8, which was nearly half the price was way more fun.

Right.

And just think, oh, like for sake. Like, yeah, it's a bit. This. Yeah, that's not very pro.

Yeah.

I don't know what it was. I think I went mad with cars.

And like it's not, it's not that it's not going mad. It's. We're looking in the wrong places. Like you just need to be grateful for what you have, which is this is, this isn't me being deep and shit. I'm just like reiterating. It should be exactly what Steve said in his book. It's like he's fixed it because he's figured out that actually he just needs to be more grateful for what he has and what he's done and where he's at. It's not about constant. Well, to an extent it is about always striving for more because you want to keep growing. But at the same time, well, yeah. Not just your bank account. This.

Yeah. I think that's the point. And obviously you can be grateful for you what you have now. Still want more than be grateful then. But I think, like, in the entrepreneurial sense, like, you realize that even, like, starting this podcast, like, I've realized just, like, how much I enjoy just fucking sitting down talking shit.

You're making money off this right now. And if you do in the future, who gives a shit? You just enjoy this. Yeah, it's a release as well. It's an output. Like, just been able to.

And I'd. I probably got. I probably went through a few years. I think I can't do anything that's enjoyable unless it's like, making money, you know, I mean, like, yeah, if it's not driving revenue, I'm not gonna do it.

As if, like, when you're a newbie, Ching sound on Shopify is like, internally connected to your happy. Like your dopamine.

Yeah. I've not heard that in years. People have that. No virgins.

But the guys listen to this. Maybe they're just starting out and they're waiting for that Cha Ching sound.

Yeah.

As if it was like, connected to dope.

That would give you depression and extreme bipolar, which probably did to me, like, I feel like E commerce again.

The game is the app.

Shopify into my underlying mental health issues. Yeah, like, it's just like the ups and downs.

The whole dopamine thing where you get like a like or a notification, it's.

Even worse because it's financial.

Cha Ching sound. They didn't put it there for no reason or because it sounds cool. Yeah, it's because it triggers the dopamine.

So true.

And it gets you hooked and you want to make another sale. And who gives a shit if you spend a hundred dollars on a Facebook ad that gets you a $50 sale? You've got a revenue screenshot you can share in your Facebook group.

Like, I feel like we're getting into a deep part of the pod, but it's fucking usually the best parts. One thing we nearly started speaking about earlier, or I wanted to mention was I feel like somewhere that's so common but just not spoken about enough and probably exaggerated by Covid and shit. It's just how fucking lonely like, starting a brand or a business and just generally being an entrepreneur is.

Yeah. Not even the start. Like, I've felt, just in general, major loneliness is. What year is it still? 2021. Yes.

This year. Yeah.

It doesn't necessarily have to be when you're Tucked away in your bedroom, saying no to your friends who are going out to the pub or on nights out. And you want to build this business. It can be when you built your business and there is just no one around to talk to about it because no one really understands your mindset. And when you do try to talk to them, they don't want to talk about that, or they will try to talk about it. And bless them, they do try, but they just don't get it. They don't understand them. Is my parents. So my parents. My dad, specifically, specifically will, you know, he clearly is really interested in it and he wants to understand and he asks these questions and I want to talk to them about it, but it's very hard for me to do that when the replies I get and not as in depth as I would love it. I can't have a proper discussion about it. Yeah. It comes down to just a difference in mindset. Like, there was a time, and I think I told you this, there's a time ages ago where he was like, oh, you want to be careful, otherwise you're gonna. This is years ago. You're gonna be careful, otherwise you're gonna have to sign up for that. You don't exceed the VAT threshold. And I came to the office. It was just good to be able to talk to you. Oh, my God. My dad's just told me this. I'm like, why has he said this? Like, this is just totally the opposite mindset. Yeah. Just having you and Eddie there to talk to about it was so good. It's. Yeah.

I think it's lonely in two ways. Firstly, it's lonely physically because particularly when you're getting started, you're not in, like an office. You usually literally in a bedroom or in your house. And then even when you get going, you're less likely to be in a big office or anything. So, like, you, like, you got fucking 100 people, but you. You work from home. And that's by itself most time. And then it's secondly lonely. And this. This is probably for as lonely but not physical is the, like. Yeah, I guess the men outside, like people like a. There's less people to relate to in general. So unless you have that circle, which is, I think, why I sought that circle so much by like. Which is why when I see London.

And like, I've not met Tyler, I've not met Billy, I follow them both, both on Instagram. I met Fred once and I see you guys all together and I'm jealous. I'm like, you fuckers. Like, I don't have that in leads.

Well, that's the thing. So, like, yeah, that was. Yeah, I just. I couldn't live, like, in York or. I mean, as long as I had entrepreneurial friends around. It was just like, I ended up just landing here because this is where the people that I'd met initially through traveling, which was initially because I went on that fucking Singapore event.

Yeah, yeah.

And I wouldn't have gone to that Singapore event if I hadn't joined a Facebook group because I was fucking lonely in uni while trying to learn Facebook ads. Right. So, like, there's that butterfly effect.

Yeah.

And then like, you're saying just then, like, yeah, you speak to your parents, but basically anyone that's not an entrepreneur, like. And again, it's not saying entrepreneurship is better or worse, whatever. Even though 99.9 some people watching this are either entrepreneurs or pursuing entrepreneurship, it's just different.

And I mean, you don't necessarily even have to be an entrepreneur. Like, so would you consider an influencer to be an entrepreneur? Will you consider and only finds girl to be an entrepreneur? What do you consider, like, well, watch.

Episode three about this. In some ways, yes. In other ways, no.

Because I'm just thinking, like, they probably experience loneliness as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. True.

Especially that we only find girls who are tucked up in the bedrooms or the random hotels they book to take photos or take.

Yeah. If they're making ten grand a day sending ass pics, then, yeah, we're still jealous.

It's still lonely.

Yeah, true.

Yeah.

Because, like.

But just being able to speak to people who experience. They basically work on their own in solitude. You don't have to be an entrepreneur. Even artists or writers.

I mean, to be fair, obviously Covid meant a lot of people that were used to going to the office every day were suddenly experiencing. That was quite interesting actually, because I remember my brother forget the exact conversation was like last year when he was working from home for him, ages was like, you've always done this. I was like, yeah, yeah. It's not like. And you've been saying, I've got a great life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's quite some of the time, like, elements of it, obviously when I wasn't traveling and so on, but obviously now.

Yeah.

Most people have gone back if they had an office job that they're in the office at least some of the time. And if they're not all the time, they at least, like, have more people by default that they're working with.

Yeah. Whereas like, yeah, I don't know, maybe that's why I sometimes have those feelings of it. Should I just get an office and build like an in person team? Is it secure my loneliness? Who knows? Yeah.

I honestly don't know if I'll ever do that or if I'll ever change your heart. I don't know.

I don't know actually. Maybe when I'm 40, 50.

Yeah.

I don't know. Family business, generational wealth and all that.

Yeah, maybe.

What has he got in his mouth?

He's been. No people listening, can't hear this, no dog. And do you think, and this is coming on to like somewhat, which has been going through on my mind lately because of the current situation with me living alone.

Right.

Like, do you think entrepreneurs should have entrepreneurial partners?

Ah, this is such a good question.

Kind of led on to a different.

Topic, but this is a really good question. I think about this, I've thought about.

It a lot and I've debated it.

A lot recently as well.

Adam, single, for the record, I think.

It, I think it depends on the person. Like for me, I've never had an entrepreneurial girlfriend, so I would quite like to experience it to know if that works for me better than a non entrepreneurial girlfriend. Do you know what? She doesn't have to be entrepreneur. Just work remotely. Let's go.

Yeah, I was about to say that.

Like, just work remotely. That's sound, that's fun. I'm not sure. Well, I am sure, actually. I was gonna say I'm not sure I could have a girlfriend who works in an office, but I have had one and it was fine and it works. And just because that relationship didn't work doesn't mean that's the reason it didn't work. That wasn't the reason it didn't work. So I think it's different for everyone. If you, if you, if that's a deal breaker for you, you're not a bad person for being so like, it's not even fickle actually for having that as a deal breaker. She has to be an entrepreneur. She has to work for herself. That's your deal breaker. That's your deal breaker.

Like, yeah, I think for me I probably actually said, and I've currently got a girlfriend, but like previously said, and my girlfriend isn't entrepreneurial. And yeah, I don't think I want an entrepreneurial girlfriend. But I've said to my current girlfriend, I do find it frustrating sometimes that she has. She works in advertising in the big like 500 person office, like just like more like traditional and like she can't travel. So I remember previously I'd said and like months ago, I really want to go to fucking Amsterdam for a week. I just like 1, 2. Because that's what I would have done in the past. She's like, I can't go.

Right. And what did she say?

And I was like, well, this is when everyone was working from home. And I was like, well this actually comes on some more like a mindset thing. But I was like, well, you can go because all your job requires is that currently when she wasn't going to the office, you're online between 10 hours. Yeah, granted, we're not going nine hours. Different time zone. Like if we just go to somewhere in Europe an hour ahead, behind, whatever. Yeah, what's the problem? And she's like, no, it won't work.

Well, first, see, like you just using that as an excuse.

I don't know, maybe. But I think it ultimately comes down to she's never done that, so it feels out of pattern. And again, like, this is what I mean. Like she. You don't have to be entrepreneurial, you have to be non civilian.

Right.

And I say that flippantly.

I remember saying that for the first time in that office in Leeds. I was like, what the.

What I mean by that? And I've said on previous podcasts and just like, it's like you were saying like game is YouTubers, like they're not necessarily entrepreneurs but they're not civilians in the respect that they're not doing, you know, nine to five prescribed lifestyle.

Yeah.

And again, I have to say this, it's not better or worse, it's just different. So don't give me. But that, that would be the. That that's the thing I've potentially found.

I was trying to experience what a relationship with someone in that position is like. Because I think, well, just thinking from my perspective, I felt guilt for, for no reason. Because if I said to her, I'm gonna go here for two weeks, she wouldn't. She said, yeah, fucking go have the time of your life. Didn't need to feel guilty. But in my head I just did. Whereas if I was in a relationship with someone who can move remotely and go with me, then I'm not going to feel that guilt because they're going to be coming with me. This guy's gonna chew the microphone to bits. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've also got mates one actually spoke to the other week who's an E comm entrepreneur. Don't know if you know him, what's his name?

Can you say the name?

Yeah. Flores.

Oh, yeah, I know.

I don't know him. He's an Amsterdam. He's Dutch. The most beautiful man I've ever met. Most aesthetic boys.

He had a pretty fucking grow up, though.

He was always. He was always a good looking boy, no homo. But I don't know his girlfriend, but I know his girlfriend. I don't think he's an entrepreneur. But she quit her job to work for him so she could travel with him. That's what he told me.

Wow. I wouldn't do it.

And then Jordan, Jordan's girlfriend. His girlfriend is actually a bit of an entrepreneur. I was on holiday, well, I guess holiday in Mallorca with him and her and Fred. It was like a fucking quadruple fourth wheel or something. I think Liv was meant to come but didn't come because of work, ironically. But yeah, his girlfriend travels with him, so it works for them because that's the lifestyle he wants as an entrepreneur.

Yeah. So I think it's. Everyone's different. Everyone wants something different from their relationship. So. But yeah, you just find what works for you, really. But yeah, it's an interesting one because you see, like, there's not many, obviously there's a lot of lads that will kind of like, flout the wealth for clout. Flout for clout. Whereas there's very few girls who will. Who are like entrepreneurs and who are quite open about what they're doing. Yeah, he's Doris.

Just licking my hand, it feels like.

Got a good topic to go on to next, by the way. But there's like, Grace Beverly is probably the only person I can think of immediately that comes to mind as a girl who's in a similar age to us, who is an entrepreneur doing shit.

Oh, she's an absolute beast.

Yes. Fucking.

Absolute beast.

Fucking smart. But it's like, then you look at her life, you think, whoa, she. She works a shit ton.

Like, yeah, she's. She's grinding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a lot more successful than me.

Yeah.

And probably you, to be fair.

Yeah, 100.

Oh, fuck it.

I'll say fair play to her. I mean, I don't know when she started these brands like Shreddy and Talibut.

She bought a great personal brand first and she. And then.

Yeah, true, that's.

She was very smart with that. She was a very smart influencer.

And I always thought it'd be such a good idea to just like, I'll be the E Comm Similar to what Billy's doing to an extent. Like I'll. I'll do all the E Comm shit. You just be. Be. You just get bare followers.

I used to think that. And that's what. That's what Gen Flow do.

Right.

You ever heard of Gen Flow?

Nope.

Yeah, they're a business. London based.

I think they're a business. Okay.

They're a business. That's London based, that. You know, that's London based. That. Yeah. Builds brands for influences. I think if Tallow is actually one of their brands or was one of.

Their brands to an extent, don't he. With like Leon Scott or someone or Release.

Yeah, it's not quite the same because it's not their brand. That's just more like influencers off. But. Right. Yeah.

No, but I think he has some equity in it.

Alex Cannon does. Yeah. That's different, though. I mean, he's an influencer owner.

Right.

He's not an influencer, just doing a collab. It's not quite the same because they're just co founders.

Right.

Whereas Gen Flow will go to an influencer and say, we'll build a brand for you. Here's X, Y and Z that you need to.

Do you reckon the influencer gets much say in terms of the brand that gets built? We want to build a fucking.

I don't know. Too much to. Honest. I know Rob Lipsett did these fuel cakes, these protein pancakes.

Right.

He's that fitness influencer. But I don't know exactly. That works. It's quite an interesting model.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So the other thing I was gonna come on to because I said Grace Beverly, but also a follower because she was on the Apprentice. Camilla Ainsworth is quite active.

Oh, yeah. With that Milk brand or something.

Yeah. It's funny you look at. So I went out, I still apprentice Milk. Milk. Yeah, I think Milk.

I've watched it. Yeah, that's it.

And I obviously. I don't know how long it's been going. Maybe like. I want to say 10 years old, to be fair. So let's say when it started. Yeah, actually let's say it's been going like 15 years. I'm 27 now. So let's say I was 12, right. And it. It came out and I was like, oh, these guys are fucking cool. This is great. It's a TV show about entrepreneurs. Then you grow up, you don't go on the Apprentice. Fuck that. And you build your business. And then now I watch it from a different perspective and I'm like.

What the fuck are they doing? Wow.

Where did they find these people?

It's reality show.

Yeah.

And you realize it's a non reality reality show.

But I think it probably changed when he stopped hiring them to be his assistant or his apprentice or whatever it was and started just giving them money.

It's effectively Love island with the business niche.

Yeah, yeah, it is. But that's my reaction. I don't watch Love island, but I watch the Apprentice, mate.

Yeah.

And then the Dragon's Den. So we got us to go on Shark Tank because they thought we were a us business.

Oh, yeah.

This was when we first started, like, come on, Shark Tank. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How much money do you want to raise? I was like, nothing from you. And you watch Dragon's Den and people will assume you like Dragon's Den because you're an entrepreneur. I find it boring.

And I think Dragon's Den, small scale.

The people on there are crazy. Giving up so much equity.

And they're also small. They're also shit businesses.

In most cases they are, but it's like, do you not realize how valuable equity is?

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but my experience of Dragon's Den, in most cases, these businesses are doing like 40 grand a year in revenue. Like, they're fucking tiny. Not everyone, but.

But I can't believe when I was a kid, like, that I was like looking up to these shows and I think it's. It's dangerous to have these people operating at this level as the aspirational figures for young people. Like I said, Maybe I was 12 when the apprentice started and maybe I watched Dragons. Den was like 14, 15.

You've opened up a whole other can of worms there.

These are the aspirational figures for young people who want to work for themselves and start a business. These are the people they're watching on tv.

Would you not think that starts with. And this is a whole other fucking debate. And we spoke about in episode three a bit like. Because obviously way less people want to be entrepreneurs. Like, I think the bigger problem in.

General is people you think want to.

Be entrepreneurs then don't want to be entrepreneurs.

Being entrepreneur is like, been a rock star these days. It's ridiculous.

No, no, as in way less than, I presume, way less than, like civilians. 1% of people actually pursue entrepreneurship. But I think the problem starts with like, Geordie Shaw and shit. Like, people grow up, like the most impressionable age group, maybe like, I guess 10 to 18, whatever. Like 16 year olds.

Yeah.

Particularly girls grow up Thinking being Marnie off Geordie Shaw is like the career path.

Oh, dear me.

So, I mean, Jordy Shaw actually were.

Filming a scene before Tiger Wednesdays. Yeah, I was like.

I remember seeing them film.

Can you get these out? The fucking club open in 20 minutes. Like. No, we're just filming a scene they're using. It's all fake, guys. Oh, maybe cut that out because, yeah, they were. They were filming a scene in like the. The Tiger Tiger. It's gone now in like the VIP area. Yeah, it's like. It's called the Lofts now. So they're filming like a scene in the VIP area in Tiger Tiger. And the VIP area tends to be where you would sell your tables and your bottles and all my stuff would go after the shifts. I was like, the. Like, we've got a thousand students queuing outside, waiting to get in, and these bastards are filming a fake scene for this TV show. Yeah, get them out.

That was like royalty in Newcastle. I used to be like, I was 18, like, first year, and I see them filming, thinking, oh, my girlfriend at.

Uni, I think it was first year. I remember she was in Legends and they were filming in Legends and Scotty T was like trying to. He was like.

He used to shag like every fresher.

Let her. Let her come in and she ran me like, Adam, Scotty T wants me go to go back. I was like, right, I'm going out Legends. Not. No idea what I was planning on doing to. Scotty sees huge. But anyway, she came out, she's like, yeah, proper weird. Like, they asked my passport and stuff before they would let me through the barrier to like, the VIP bit. I was like, wow, that's weird.

Just on like VIP in. Going on other tangent here because I. I don't remember. It was like, it's like Bottles, like tables and bottles are thing. You're like clubs like that in Newcastle or in like.

I don't think it is anymore. I don't know.

You get a table and a bottle in London club, you easily spend like three grand.

But mate, it's Newcastle. It's probably like 20 quid.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Yeah.

Like, who's gonna go to it vip? Like the local joiner. Well, I mean, back then, I suppose.

Yeah. Yeah.

I remember going to Top Top was good.

Yeah, I liked Top Top.

And they'd make out.

It was like. Oh, yeah.

It's funny, looking back, you'd think it was like super exclusive. Like. Like you're really lucky if you get.

In sort of thing in the VIP area, like you would often see. Not often, but sometimes see like the odd like really like peripheral celebrity just walk through like Joe McEldry or something from a Zealand. Oh my God, Joe McKelvey.

I remember 50 Cent going there.

Yeah. I.

After an arena show at the. What's it called?

Yeah, there was some actual decent people. Me and my housemate took S Club 7 on a night. Well S Club 3 at that point on a night out. This was in the third year of uni because I was running the event at Tiger. There was a bit like freshest thing and some freshers events company, yeah. Booked S Club to come and perform. And there's like Paul Bradley and Joe turned up and they did this set and then they were in like the staff room in the back. So I went through obviously to like. I wanted to meet up but I was like, oh, speaking to the manager, just chatting away and I saw them was like my housemate was with me because he's like, fuck, come on, he loves this shit. He's like, come on, we need to go beat S Club 7.

So classic.

He went into the back and you were like, where's good to go around here? And so we. And my mate worked at one of the clubs. He worked at Bonbar. So we're like, we'll take you to Bonbar. So we went to Bonbar of S Club 3. And yeah, bizarre situation. But you just. So many like, just. Just like bygone celebrities. I forgot what we were talking about.

I remember Bass Hunter. I remember Bass Hunter performing massive in like 2008. Yeah, he got like a what, a residency in Samjax some before. I get paid like 200 pound a night. He came down from his IB for 200 grand a night. 200 pounds the night in Newcastle, basically.

Yeah. He still. I think he still makes with the old manager of subjects by the looks of things. Hell yeah.

It's mad. It's just like funny how your perspective changes on like dealer celebrities as you get older and realize like what the world is.

I forgot what we were talking about before. The price of Trebles three troubles for five. It was not any more, mate. Six quid rip off, is it?

Jeez. Yeah, well, just bringing it back before we attempt to close, I suppose. Yeah, these podcasts are always like. End up being like half about the actual topic, then half about just like fucking weird and wonderful things about life. So what's the plan over the next year in life and in business, this.

Is quite a short time frame is.

But okay, you can do a lot in here.

Strap myself into my desk for the next two, three months, get through Q4, have a big one. Hopefully close my first acquisition deal within the next seven days, which would be exciting. And I have toyed with the idea of doing like a limited series content potentially. Podcasts are just like YouTube videos. Again, just limited content. Limited series content.

Sorry, you get more views than me.

Dunno. Literally just updating people in terms of this is the revenue, this expenses is a profit, this is how much we paid for it and being very transparent about it and showing them how long it's going to take me to pay myself back to essentially get to the point where this business was free and now it's cash flowing me X amount and it's also worth this amount of money. So anyway, that that deal should close in the next seven to 10 days. All been well and that will be the start of a wider project, a wider direction for the company operating at a slightly higher level. Release these two Shopify apps that we have, which will be quite fun because I've never run a software as a service business without getting a cease and desist from Depop. Continue investing in property. Probably not as much maybe, I don't know. Like I always said to myself, if I can, if I can do 100k passively personal income, totally passively through property dividends, whatever that kind of gives me. I don't know why I have that number in my head, but I feel.

Like that gives me.

It's all you need really permission to do and take more risks with my E commerce company and software companies. So do that. But in the meantime, also keep traveling, keep going to these cool surf camps, meet new people that are not perhaps in the business space. Maybe come down to London more often, meet more people, get in more circles. Definitely need to meet the sort of people you're meeting with by the sounds of it. And yeah, just keep, keep building the business. But I think for me, realistically, Crown and Poor probably had its biggest year last year as, as it currently stands as the Crown and Paul, we know right now at the time of recording we are working on some new stuff that could potentially take it in a slightly different direction. And then if that works out, there's no telling how big it could be. So it's quite a lot that we're working on. Got fingers in a lot of pies, so it should be quite, quite a fun year.

Sick. Well, banging episode I think. Try and wrap it up there because we could probably go down a billion different rabbit holes and start speaking about like 10 episodes existence theory or something. Bollocks. Yeah, we'll do a part two at some point.

Simulation theory.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Yeah, yeah.

Simulation theory. This dog is a simulation.

Ah.

But yeah, we'll wrap it up there. I hope you enjoyed the episode as usual. Listen to this, watch it wherever the you want. Spotify, Apple music. We're on YouTube obviously where you're watching episodes every week is the plan. And I mean people have asked me where do I reckon I can get this to like subscribers wise in a year. I suppose because it's a podcast, it's not really about subscribers technically.

What's it about?

Listeners. I guess that's a combination like what.

The stats on like can you see?

Well yeah, I mean I'm so new to this. This is another thing. I was just googling how to start a podcast, how to get on Spotify and shit. But yeah, it's a cast but we like it's getting way more views listens.

On YouTube you have LTV and repeat, repeat customer percentage.

Yeah. You can see like mad listeners amount of people realizing the drop off rate. Yeah.

This episode might be too long and everyone drops off halfway through.

Adam, that was most people don't listen to the whole thing. Yeah, yeah man.

Leave some like golden nuggets.

You probably need to do the. The thing that professional ones do is a little clip at the start of the best bit. Yeah.

But just make sure, make it a thing that at the end of the episode people just drop some absolute bombs of knowledge so everyone has to stick around. Oh wait, they just click to the end. Yeah. Shut up.

Yeah, true. I have to start doing that actually for your part two. But yeah. Hope you enjoyed the episode. Listen to it, subscribe like et cetera, et cetera. We got some bangers coming on the way, I promise you that. And yeah, cheers for listening. Cheers for watching. See you on the next one. Peace.