7 Years in the Ecom Trenches & Life Lessons - Matt Kelly | Midnight Podcast x 44 Podcast *BONUS EP*

Hey guys, welcome Back to the 44 podcast. Today we've got a very special guest, Matthew Kelly. I'm very excited for this one. This is someone who e commerce wise, I'd say definitely my journey. Someone who I've looked up to quite, quite a lot. I don't know. Yeah, literally like, I don't know. I've always seen you as like the guy who's a couple years ahead of me in terms of where I want to be, brand building wise, all of that and yeah, but if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself what it is exactly, you do what you've done.

Yeah, well I guess obviously I started my pod like four months ago, so maybe some people it's crossover audience wise. Never really been on the other side of it, which is why I want to do this, I suppose. Yeah. In summary, Ecom entrepreneur. I've been doing it like properly since I was about 18, 26. Now again I feel like I've done so many different things in econ, which is probably good and bad. Yeah, I've never focused on one thing but. But I've got a depth of experience. Yeah. And like in the highs and lows as well, which we can get into I guess most notably in the past few years built two pretty big brands, Midnight City, neither of which I'm involved anymore. Got that to like multi seven figures in revenue. Then Neon beach, which is like the fucking famous catastrophe staple story, which got to like eight figures in revenue then came crashing down. But it was a fucking good learning curve. Now I'm working on my next brand, Space Goods which I'm fucking rocking.

Yeah.

Hasn't launched yet but with this one I'm trying to take it to the next level, get to like nine figures and shit. I mean everyone fucking says that but we can get into that later on. And I guess prior to that. Yeah, like stuff I've not really shared on my pod is like previous to like Midnight and Neon because I did probably like four years I actually had a brand, a clothing brand before I even got into drop shipping. So I kind of went like brand drop shipping, traveling. Then you went back to the brand building space and then. Yeah, it's been a journey like. Yeah, I like reflecting on I've done. I think it's useful like I never used to put content out that intentionally. It was kind of like just built a bit of a niche personal brand following. Like even like you say you knew I was. It's like.

Well yeah.

And then obviously the pod. Yeah. Recently started sharing more and yeah, I've come to the point now where it's therapeutic for me to talk about it.

Exactly.

Yeah. Like the bad that I went through. And then I was like, people actually really are interested in.

Very insightful.

Even watching.

It's just fun speaking to people because otherwise you sit on a laptop all day staring at a screen.

It's something to do.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess in some way I'm an ecom entrepreneur. I would say I'm a creative at heart that figured out how to make money doing stuff that I like rather than business person that has to like outsource the creative side. For me, it started like designing logos when I was like 16. That's literally where it came from. Like, and then I was really into music. I had a music YouTube channel and. Yeah, and then, yeah, I'd probably say in summary, I'm just a bit of a fucking weird creative entrepreneur that's still very much figuring out I do not position my personal brand. Someone that's made it, because I fucking haven't made it about highs and lows is in the process. Yeah, but I think that's what people want to know more of because like you get all these podcasts, these big bigger podcasts like Diary of a CEO, which don't get me wrong, are great, but when every fucking guess is a billionaire, I think it's a bit less relatable, 100%. And Pete, there's a lot of underground people, probably like myself included, that have got interesting stories. I think that probably more relatable, I.

Feel like with the whole Neon beach thing, right, this is like, it's something where there's so many lessons that you must have learned from that and so much like value that you can give. Because I feel like even the fact that, let's say it didn't go well right in the end, very fucking bad. But that's like, that's that'. Key. You can obviously, you now know that yourself. That's like the. Probably the best learning experience you can probably get ever business wise, to be honest with you. Because you had a successful business that was huge. And then obviously.

Yeah, yeah, we can go into that. We can go.

This is what I was going to say because obviously even myself, you know, I've watched quite a lot of your stuff about Neon beach and all that, you know, talking about it. But again, if you want to sort of maybe just explain Neon Beach.

Yeah, I mean, do you want to play this chronologically? Because I want to go back to that. Yeah, 100% because we'll mention this first.

Even, obviously you started E commerce with dropshipping, right? Yeah, this is pretty much what we do.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, well, I guess, yeah, the neon story quickly. I mean, episode one of my pod, kind of probably 70% shared what happened. I mean, it's probably even more traumatic than it sounded.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, in summary, what happened there, I guess in like a one minute nutshell, was with that brand scale it super quick. Literally got it from like zero to a million a month in like six months. I mean, ultimately it was drop shipping, but the nature of the product is drop shipping. It's, you know, it's a custom product.

Yeah.

So I don't really count it as like kind of day drop shipping. It was like branded dropshipping, you know, like dedicated factories, all that shit. Yeah. Scaled it too quick. I was running it alongside Midnight. So like mid, mid, like summer 2020 was a fucking great time, like biggest months I've ever done for both brands. Everything's going super well. I was, I thought, like, you know, I fucking made it. Like, give me a year or two, we'll sell both these brands and we're done.

Exit side. Yeah, Everything's planned out.

Yeah. I guess looking back now, I mean, scaled it too quick, in hindsight, had zero employees, zero, like proper employees in the uk and she. It was all like freelancers, agency stuff, which is fine. It was probably like the biggest business in terms of like people in the UK on the ground, like ever. Like, genuinely. I mean, it's got to be up there. Like, it was fucking big. Like the first year it did 8 million quid and then midnight did 2 and a half. So the business did 10 million quid in 2020 with just me as a director. And then, yeah, long story short, I moved all the production from China to the uk. Think, like, trying to improve the experience because it's all right from China, but like Covid was perfect timing for that sort of product.

It's a good step to take. It is for the progress.

But it made shipping terrible. So, like it wasn't. It was manageable, but it was like, you know, six weeks shipping, whatever. It was getting like three star reviews and shit. I thought, we'll bring it to the uk, put like half a million quid up front into this UK factory, which in hindsight didn't do enough due diligence on. They bit off more than they could chew, basically, and then effectively just couldn't fulfill any of it. And they had their own problems because of COVID Because they were a B2B supplier. I was left with 2 million quiz worth of orders that disappeared, which is quite a lot because the AOV was like 300 quid, so it was like 600,000 orders to do the maths. Obviously social media heavy. We had this thing with Love island that went up so there was like TV campaigns going out. This is November 2020 when it started to become a problem. And yeah, like, oh, you start getting chargebacks, your Facebook ads.

What was the payment process alike?

Yeah, I had to change it like three times, but. And yeah, obviously customers don't care about that. They don't realize that. And then, you know, a picture of me comes out with a flash car into like some Facebook group. Yeah, no, no, it started to get very messy. Like the Daily Mail got involved and it was horrible, horrible time. Like November to February 21, I'd say it was like peak issues. And yeah, like the business lost like 2 million quid in like four months. Yeah. And then long story short, basically got bailed out by private equity fund which. Which taught me a huge amount about that whole process. Like learned what lawyers actually do day to day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, worked with them for six months and now sold my remaining shares in that. And yeah, it kind of wrapped up a very bad situation and yeah. Solved the problem at the expense of my probably mental health because that's the most important thing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Throughout that. How are you coping, like mentally? That's.

Oh, I wasn't insane. Yeah, it was a terrible time. I think I've got PTSD from that, to be honest. Like. Yeah, almost a six month period primarily.

Even, even when there's little drop shipping issues, I'm always like, yo.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So I can't imagine something on that scale.

Yeah, the thing that made that really bad was it's one thing like the business going tits up thinking like we're gonna run out of money, but it's another thing having like my face and my girlfriend's face at the time plastered everywhere, plaster everywhere, like, this guy's a scam. Eyes.

Yeah.

Which couldn't be further from the truth. I mean, why would a font bow.

You out if you're a scams have issues at the end of the day.

Yeah. I mean it's just such a public issue and it was made very public by like TR and whatever and it was like the perfect pr.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. I honestly think, like health issues aside, probably doesn't get much worse as an entrepreneur, like Genuinely, I've never heard, even.

As an entrepreneur in general is, I would say, tough, like.

Yeah, like mentally, it's not for everyone.

Yeah, honestly, I was like suicidal about it at some points, man.

I can't even imagine.

But yeah, like, I have some close mates that I spoke to you about it because they're all in like the E comm space.

Yeah.

But it was even then it's like still my problem ultimately.

Yeah.

And like my ex girlfriend I was mentioning before she moved in with me and she was really good, she helped me a lot, to be fair. But even then, like, I didn't tell her the full extent of issues, which I regret to this day, to be honest, because I think it probably had a negative effect on what happened with that relationship. But, yeah, taught me a lot. Hardened me and definitely humbled me, which I think was a good thing in many ways. But, you know, just get back on the fucking horse.

You must be ready for anything now.

Yeah, honestly, like, I don't. I don't think there's much that can stress me now. Yeah, I, like, obviously stressed me, but not to the same extent.

Was. Was there a lot of reflection?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like.

Like time off, sort of.

Well, yes. I spent six months working with these guys at March till September, like on like a good salary and shit, had 20% equity and like the new business they set up around that. But I knew from the start I was never going to do that long term. It was just like, that was basically the deal. They put all this money in to pay all the customers back, which was like 2 million quid in the end, by the way. And, you know, that's money that could have come to me if the business hadn't gone wrong, hypothetically. But I had to put things right in that respect. So. Yeah, and then there was a lot of reflection, I guess. Like, it was kind of weird. It was like, oh, fuck, I'm not like the leading business owner anymore. I felt like I've got a 9 to 5 now kind of in my own business, but that was what I had to do and it taught me a lot.

Yeah. At the end of the day. Yeah, that's what you thought you had to do. Like, I guess you sort of got into a corner, you know, I mean.

Yeah, there was literally like, well, if I don't do this, you know, if someone don't come in and bail it out. Yeah, what's gonna happen?

You face the music, I guess.

Yeah. 100 on a big scale. So, yeah, very tough time. Definitely come out of that with a lot of learnings. Yeah. Like, I feel like more world aware.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So prior to Neon beach, how did you actually like get into E commerce in general?

Yeah. Going back, like the first E comm thing I ever had was. There's loads different to. This would have been like start of end of 2014, even like golden age. Yeah. I had a clothing brand called Gentry Club. Like this. This was like way back. Like I bought. I worked in John Lewis in the summer and bought stock and like put a logo on a gilding T shirt. And the kids in the year below who ended up buying from my brand a few years later, by the way, so there's no beats. They took the piss out of that. And that was like my very first thing. Like, didn't know what the fuck I was doing. Didn't sell anything. Like, sold like 500 quid's worth and had like two rounds worth of stock.

Yeah.

Didn't have like ads running or any of that shit. Then I had a leggings brand called Wavy Leggings. This is when I was rowing at uni that did all right. I did like 10 grand in revenue with no ads. So I was like, something works a little bit. That's print on demand.

Yeah.

Then I guess moving on a little bit came and I was still in uni at this point. So I was dabbling with a few things, but wasn't really 100% into E comm yet.

Experimenting here.

Yeah, it wasn't a real business at that point. And then like mid 2016, just before I left end up dropping out of uni, I discovered Facebook ads, I suppose from like a Facebook group. Started drop shipping, ripped jeans back when, like Geordie Shaw was popping. So I was.

That's a good time. That is a good time for that.

Technically was drop shipping to start with. But then I started doing like 30 grand a month in revenue while I was in uni. I was like, oh, wait a minute, let's just stop going to uni. I had a little office like this size in Newcastle while I was still at uni studying advertising. Ironically, then that became a brand when we started buying our own stock and we became a brand called Dusk.

Right.

So we had like Luke Hemings from 5 Seconds of Summer of Massive Bands. I'm a sucker for that. Sort of. He was buying our stuff. We started doing like Sherpa jackets, which is a fear of God rip off.

Yeah.

And like looking back, okay, that was like ahead of its time. It was in terms of like, it Was actually like a legit fashion brand like we had. We moved to a bigger office and shit which is like 1200 square feet in the toffee factory.

Was this still drop shipped or.

No, this was like fully holding stock using a third party warehouse. I'd have been 21. My mate got involved who was a year younger than me. He runs saw with US agency now episode 23 on my pod. And then that would have been like February 2017. So I'd like stopped going to uni at this point. I mean I told my parents I'm just dropping out and they're like, okay, fair enough, whatever.

Yeah.

But then we kind of fell out. Me and Ollie, who were running the brand at the time. Then we had a lawsuit over the name. Like we couldn't keep selling it and it yeah, basically just faded. Like we just had to stop selling stuff. Like we sold off the stock and probably came out with a few grand each. I don't really remember. And then like summer 2017. This brings us to. I was like, well, I don't know anyone in Ecom. I'm not going back to uni. I've not really made any money. Yeah, I've got a bit of experience. I know Facebook ads now. So I got back into the drop shipping space, set up a few different stores like back in the golden era, I suppose. I remember I had a store selling leggings because I'd obviously done the wavy leggings thing but I didn't want to do print on demand because margins weren't big enough. Started scaling that. Then I went to. I started traveling like Europe by myself. I literally went on a two month trip. It's on my vlog, it's on my vlog channel if anyone wants to check that out. Golden times, I suppose because I was just like, if I don't move and get out, what am I gonna do? Sit in my parents house?

You must reminisce on it a lot. All of them. All of them times.

Yeah, for sure. And then a real turning point was this was all I was in like Facebook groups and shit. And then there was like this event called the Econ World Summit or some bullshit scam. All the guys speaking there were like.

It'S like a mastermind.

But it was in Singapore, so I got like an economy flight to there. This was like September 2017 it would have been. And that's where I met. I credit that as being like the turning point, people. In Ecom. I met a guy called Jordan. He was 18 at the time. Doing like a million a month dropshipping, you know, Runs a brand called Gleaming. He's like one of my best mates. Is like 23 now, I think, and. Yeah, a bunch of other guys. Yeah. And then it's kind of the butterfly effect, because, like, you put yourself in a room like that. And that was like, my first exposure to, like, a different world. Like, first time into Asia, first time I've met other people that didn't just want to get a grad job.

Yeah.

And then I went to Bali, like, Australia. Bali. There was like two years of basically just. I met these guys, met more people. Bali was really good. That's the best place to go.

Yeah.

If you want to network, in my opinion.

Really.

And it's just. It's a great lifestyle, particularly when you're, like, early 20s, whatever, making a bit.

Is it all just, like, digital stuff?

Is everyone just doing all digital shit like in Changu? Yeah, it's just nice weather, pretty cheap to live in. Like, I get messages saying what I want to, like, do my own thing. Where should I go? Just go to Changu in Bali. And I think right now it's quite difficult to get to, but do the quarantine, whatever.

Yeah.

And, yeah, did that, like, spent pretty much 2018, 20, rest of 2017 and 2018, like, traveling all around the world. Like, there's some. Some mad on my YouTube actually. Yeah. I had a few different stores. I had one store where I was selling. I say stores because they were never intending to be like, a brand or anything. It's literally just like, what can I make the most money? And I would just do free plus shipping, like kitchen stuff on the pod that you listen to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like, products like this Ice Cube Genie, which was like £2 manually express. I sell it for, like, 14 quid shipping.

Then ones where they're just stupidly cheap to source. It can't not work.

Two pound cost per purchase on Facebook, like, and I just run, like, the same page.

Yeah.

What was the CPM like?

Oh, I don't even know. But it's cheap.

Yeah, yeah.

And it just works. And I got. Yeah, I think I got that to, like, 500, 600 grand a month in revenue. Probably making like 50, 60 profit. So the margins are slim, but obviously at scale, it's still a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, kept doing that pretty much up until, like, the start of 2019. And then I was a bit, like, I started to see, like, Facebook bringing in, like, feedback scores. And she was getting a bit tougher And I was like, well, I made some money now. Definitely didn't spend it wisely on a lot of things like bought a stupid car and shit the first time. And then, geez, think about. It's a long time now. And then like March 2019, April 2019 even. I moved to London with Fred and another guy called Sebastian. Here I literally met through like friends of. Friends are like, fuck it, let's just get a group and I get a hostel house.

Were they all like E Commerce?

Yeah, yeah. And then that's when I started Midnight. And I was still drop shipping, but I was like, almost went cold turkey. I was like, well, I've got money now. I know I want to build a brand. And that was always what wanted to do. Take your time and that's more creative, it's more fulfilling. I wanted to do something I could tend to exit from like drop shipping was getting. Getting harder. Like the margins were slimmer and slimmer and slimmer and it just wasn't fulfilling. Like I'd made a few hundred grand at this point, like in the bank. And I was like, I really should have put that in Ethereum, by the way, at the time. And then, yeah, that kind of started like the next chapter, I guess, in my head, which was, yeah, building Midnight and then that went on to like 2019, was focused on Midnight City Jewelry. Got that to like a million quid in the first year, which, looking back is pretty good for a brand, like, especially in that space. It's so competitive now. And then launched Neon at the start of 2020. Random. Both for 2020, which is obviously what I just spoke about. And then kind of brings us to 2021, which is like the fucking learning year. That was like a two sets back, five sets forward sort of thing. And then now I'm here. So that's kind of like a very. Yeah, very expedited rundown.

So you've been in the game for a while now, which I guess.

Yeah. Honestly, I feel like it's a shame. I really should be retired by now if I was smart. Because I see guys that have been in the game a lot less. But I don't know, everyone's.

Everyone's just got a different journey. That's all that is. Yeah.

Yeah. So I've done a lot of different things. Definitely built up experience in a lot of areas that I think is. Yeah. Is valuable now.

Life lessons for real.

Yeah.

What I want to know is what do you think of the drop shipping industry just at this current time now, obviously it's been a while since you've even been involved in that. Right. But people are still doing it, I guess. We're still in that industry.

Yeah. Honestly, like, I started going on, like, money Twitter a few months ago, and I saw these, like, kids, like, how old are you?

I'm 18.

Yeah.

To me.

And they're doing, like, TikTok shit. Like, yeah. 100 grand a month organically and shit. And I think, fuck me, like, shiny object syndrome. So I think, in summary, dropshipping is the single best way to get started in E Comm. If you have no money or experience.

Yeah.

Because it's. Hopefully gives you some money if you do it well, but most importantly gives you some experience. Because, like, I think the thing a lot of people look past with, like, online is, like, you actually have to have skills to be able to do it. Like, I don't know, like, when I was maybe like, 22, 23, like, when a lot of my mates from uni or whatever or like, from home, I think when I first got this Audi R8 in 2018, I remember a lot of people started kind of noticing what I was doing. Yeah. It would have been when I went on that podcast that you listen to in, like, it's called. Yeah, yeah. And that came out. I remember that. That went around like a uni group chat. What's this guy doing? And then loads of people from, like, Union Shit were like, oh, I want to do Ecom. And it's like, well, no, you don't want to do Ecom. You just want a car.

Yeah.

Shiny object syndrome.

Probably still saying that. Oh, I wonder.

Whereas to me, it was always a genuine passion because it came from wanting to design logos.

Logos.

Like, you know, I only started making a bit of money from Ecom, like, three, four years in.

Yeah.

It wasn't like.

Exactly.

And that was, like, compounded experience from, like, a clothing brand while I was in school. I think it was pretty much that first one I mentioned, then the other brand, which did, like, six figures in revenue, but then we had to close it down. So it's actually more than two brands, everyone. I've run, like, a few different things. And then, yeah, drop shipping, like, at that point it was. To be honest, I just wanted to make money so I could travel and meet people.

Yeah.

And it was like, the catalyst for learning and everything else. Freedom. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, freedom. Yeah. And honestly, looking back now as well, I don't think that lifestyle's for me anymore because I'm a bit older, but, like, living in Bali, like making like 300 grand a year profit from a laptop.

That must have just been insane. Yeah.

But, yeah, I get. I guess I wanted to get back into the brand building space to kind of do something more fulfilling and obviously Covid up travel for everyone anyway.

Yeah.

But like, I wouldn't want to be like island hopping, so to speak. Yeah. These days, although there are elements of me that still, like, gets the itch for that. Yeah. What was your original question? Drop shipping. But yeah, I think drop shipping is the best place to get started for sure.

Yeah.

And, yeah, like, I guess I thought we kind of died out because of Facebook, but then TikTok.

Yeah.

It's been like the resurgence, the renaissance of dropshipping. But for me, it's like I'm now. Yeah. I guess I've mentally graduated to, like, I want to do something longer term because I've been there and done that.

Yeah.

And got the experience and, you know, I could probably do drop shipping now, but it would just take away from trying to focus on a bigger thing.

Yeah. There's no. I feel like you've outgrown it now. You know what I mean? You. You've done. You've done your.

Yeah, yeah. I think you just learn a lot by starting drop shipping and like, you know, you learn about cash flow, customer service, obviously, ads, website, everything. It's like, it's like a degree. It's probably a much better degree. I feel like business.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Isn't it? And obviously with drop shipping, like, it's. It's not hard at all to start a store and start a business technically. Like, it's so easy to literally just get a store made and just get it launched. You can do it in a day.

It's never easier.

It's mainly just mental barriers, though, to be honest.

Yeah.

For the majority of people.

But a lot of people just think, oh, I've got to buy someone to make a logo, you know, I mean.

It'S like, yeah, 100%. Like, I remember just doing everything myself.

Yeah.

I remember distinctly being in Barcelona in summer, like May 2017, maybe June, on that summer trip by myself. And I was literally sat in the shittest Airbnb just making a website to sell these leggings.

Yeah.

Like, it was not glamorous at all, but they're like, obviously the glory days. Looking back. Definitely.

Yeah, that's the come up.

Yeah. Like, I think I read something on Twitter and it says, like, when you look back at like the struggle days, it's like the most beautiful but it's actually true.

It is so true.

When you were doing drop shipping back then, were you just doing Facebook?

Literally just Facebook.

I mean there wasn't even too many other platforms.

Didn't do Google anything, didn't do influencers nothing.

That's crazy. Like with Neon beach site, were you multi marketing?

Yeah, that was more. That was like heavily googling Facebook. It's actually more Google than Facebook and a bit of like Snapchat and shit. Didn't really do tick tock because like slightly premature I felt. But yeah, that was more, more broad because I'd built up that experience for other platforms from like midnight and.

Yeah, yeah. Was it. Was there a lot of money on the back end as well with that kind of brand?

Yeah, like big fat email list. I think we're doing like 20 of revenue from email. You know, all that sort of stuff. Too shabby. Like even organically, like if you turn the ads off, it probably do 100 grand a month because there's just so much eyeballs.

Yeah.

And when it's known when it's a.

Product like that, you know, people don't buy it on impulse. They might see an ad and buy it nine months later.

Did you ever do like PR or anything like that?

No, I guess I got unintentionally a lot of negative. Well, I get was kind of PR.

Because I've always thought of that. I've always thought like, I mean, I've had offers, you know, I mean like when you get like emails, pr, whatever. Yeah, I never done it.

I don't know, I think for my next brand I was speaking to someone, they said I should definitely get into like the PR space from like a founder's perspective as well.

Yeah.

Because a lot of like these brands and like I was saying before like the whole strategic narrative, getting a brand that can sell for like 5x revenue. Like look at Gymshark, like how they've done that with Ben Francis. It's such a great founder story and a lot of big, big brands have it. Like Netflix has the story of I think you didn't want to pay the fee of sending the disc back, whatever it was. And like there's loads of similar examples. So yeah, I've been thinking about that a bit more just from like a personal brand perspective but also just from a business thing.

Am I right in saying that you like paid to get like verification or something like that?

I think I mentioned that in like another pod. Not the first. I just literally just basically in summary, it wasn't verification actually. It was to get the username to get rid of code. Oh, yeah. I think it's both. And then verification didn't work anyway.

Yeah.

So I paid 5 bitcoin off the record, which obviously now is a bit lower than one foot at peak. That was like 250 grand. And to get two letters off a username for brand that I'm now no longer even own.

You've had a tough journey.

That's quite funny. But it is what it is.

I mean, it's better than the guy who paid like, what, 10,000 or something for a pizza? 10,000 Bitcoin. Oh, yeah. That story that you should always hear.

Yes. I. I just. I don't think it's worth paying for that shit. I've been scammed on verification as well, which was a dirty story, but I'm not going to go into that in case he watches. But. And people, I now have as well for like, three grand. Five grand.

One thing I remember because obviously we had, like, a similar type of, like, store, same sort of niche.

Right.

And I. I was very like. We had like 50 million views in the ads. You know, there's like a lot of, like, eyes as well.

Yeah.

And I was getting hit from, like, rappers and stuff. Like. Oh, let me get one. Then we got all of that.

Yeah.

Do you have any stories, like. Because I remember hearing what James said, Remy James about.

Yeah.

Chris Brown. Do you have, like, any, like, thing that happened in that sort of sense? Because I know I got scammed about influencer stories. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, probably a notable one was with Midnight City. I did a collab with Jay Alvarez.

Oh, yeah.

She's like. I wanted to. I kind of wanted to change the brand from, like. It was sort of like Love island respect to begin with. Like tattoo models and.

Yeah.

Which I actually think hindsight worked better. But I wanted to make it, like, barley aesthetic go a bit different. A bit like Two Jays. There's a brand called Two J's now. They've crushed that whole, like, Barcelona, like, tanned vibe.

Yeah.

And, yeah, I thought, like, J Alvarez is like the poster boy for this sort of shit. Paid him like 40. I think it was £45,000 for three posts, which is fucking insane. Yeah. That was like a big chunk. This was like three years ago now. And it just didn't do anything. It wasn't a scam. I mean, he did post it.

Yeah.

But it just. I thought, this is gonna blow up the website. And it just, just. I literally would. Didn't even notice.

Yeah. I've had times like that where it's like.

Yeah.

You just. It's just so weird. Like I'm just so reluctant with influencers now to just. Just do like upfront promos. I don't know.

Influence I've never had. Great. That great. They're a longer term thing like sponsor.

Them when you're like a big, big brand where they just spoil money away.

Yeah. And then like Neon used to send loads of signs to people. Like Mia Khalifa was one.

No way.

Obviously like I'm with that being funny, but they just didn't post. A lot of them just take free shit and don't post.

Yeah.

I mean obviously when it's like a 300 quid product, that's kind of annoying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But trying to think there's anything else major. Probably not really that. That was like the worst.

Yeah.

The money I spent and it didn't work. But influencer marketing. I don't know. It's a weird one is that I've never quite cracked it.

I miss.

I think very.

You plan on doing that with the new. With the new brand?

Yeah, I think. But it'd definitely be like a longer term thing and like sponsoring someone long term. You know, like a proper ambassador.

Yeah.

Ambassador post. Because I don't think posts work.

Did you have any sort of like systems like that with Neon beach, like Ambassador program or anything like that which you scaled?

Yeah. Christ. I mean it would have been a dirty Google sheet. It wasn't anything fancy. I've actually used like fancy softwares like Grin and there's another one called I think I tried influencer.com, which is Casper Lee's one.

Yeah, I've seen that.

Yeah.

Don't know if I actually signed up with them, but. Yeah. And you pay all this money for these fancy platforms. But I just came to the conclusion that Google Sheet is best way.

That's what I do. Like just like email outreach. Outreach. Va. Yeah.

It's so hard to complicate things with like fancy softwares and shit in a lot of ways. I remember I was paying, I'm not joking, like six grand a month for this conversion rate optimization software called vwo.

Yeah.

For Neon, like six months in and it just, it was too much to handle and like I shouldn't have been focusing on that like at that point. Like, I mean the conversion rate was like 0.3. It was crap. But it's still profitable. Yeah. So you know, conversion rate optimization wasn't like.

Why would you say it was 0.3? Is there like A. I mean, I guess with that type of brand it just, I mean that's just how it is.

As in, I think I was focusing on refining when I really should have just been focusing on the meat and potatoes. Yeah. I should have been focusing on getting the logistics better at that point.

That's.

Yeah, that's the problem. Rather than tweaking the color of an anti car button.

Oh yeah, yeah.

It's so granular and it might make a difference, you know, later down the line if you're 100 million pound brand. But it was way too premature to be focused on that and just building up like massive overheads which you don't need.

That's it. It's so easy to just fall into that. Whenever you've got, especially even just any store working, there's like always an app, you know, there's always like a new software or SaaS. Something man. Yeah, no, I mean, I fell into that and then you've got like just bills coming out that you forgot about. You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's crazy. I just think, I don't know where I'm going with this, but just focus on the fundamentals.

Yeah.

Have a deep like principles. People will message me and be like, what theme should I use? My store doesn't matter. Choose one. Like that can matter like later down the line, but fundamentally.

Yeah.

Do people want the product? That's, that's like, does it look decent? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And like if you don't have a gut instinct for that shit, it's probably not for you anyway. Like someone actually messaged me the other day, this is going on tangent and said, are you any good with Photoshop? I was like, I'm all right. Why. So can you edit this picture of my website? Like firstly, no, you could do that if you had any initiative. You could do that on a billion different free apps.

What percent.

You know? Yeah, people don't. I don't know, I just, I can't.

Even imagine just writing that message though, because I get messages of random, you know, random stuff all the time. I couldn't even imagine typing out even when I was like a beginner, you know, I mean, stuff like that, it's all mad.

Yeah. Crazy.

Anyway, back on track. What I was sort of thinking as well, which could be kind of insightful, is just like when you started Neon beach, did you know that? It's just so like interesting to me, but obviously, I don't know, like, did you know it was going to be as big as it Was. And like, how was it, like, even just like starting it, you know, I mean, like building it.

Yeah. Because I remember I literally. Because I was running Midnight at the time. And this is the thing. I already had a successful brand that I could. I should have probably focused on. In hindsight. I started it because I bought a neon sign, an LED neon sign with the Midnight City logo. Just for my bedroom.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then I was like, wait a minute, there's no one doing this online. This was like November 2019. And I was in LA in some co work space. It was a. We work in Hollywood or some shit. And I made the website, like, entirely myself, all the logo and shit, because I've always been good at that stuff. Literally filmed an ad like the next week and got sale in the first day. I think in month one, it did, like, underground.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, fuck, we're on something here.

Yeah.

And I was. I've always just liked that aesthetic, like pink lights and shit. So it was really almost like a passion project. Like, I didn't. Which is why it pisses me off and people are scamming. I already had a good business. I didn't need to start this.

Yeah.

And then. Yeah. Like, pretty much straight away I thought, like, this is going to be the one.

Yeah.

And then as well, like before went tits up. Like, I was getting approached by like, investment funds that I would really like this. There was one in Miami, actually, that I spoke to you for like two months. Would have been like September 2020. They were like, we've never seen growth like this. Like, we're interested in maybe doing a deal or whatever. Yeah. And I was like, fuck, this is gonna be a hundred million pound business. And I still think there can be a neon brand.

Yeah.

That gets to 300 million revenue. I really do. Because the scale is so mad. Like, potentially people just want the product.

And it's just hard.

Yeah, it's really hard. Product to scale, which is what I think a lot of brands have found. Like, there's a lot of brands that were around the same time that have disappeared as well.

Yeah.

There's like one or two that are still around. But I mean, I try not to follow them now because it's like, it's not 13.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, yeah, Like, I guess it started, honestly as like, bit of fun.

Yeah.

And then I was like, it's working.

Yeah.

Like, it was. I've. Nothing I've ever started, apart from this next one, has been that intentional. It always started as I'm Quite interested in that. Let's give it a go.

Yeah, it's a winner.

Like I'd rather start.

Yeah.

And figure it out than spend a year planning something which I think is such problem for so many people. Like even with space goods which you can come on to like the first product, I'll be honest, probably is 80 how I want it to be but I'd rather get it out and get feedback ASAP rather than work on it six months. Oh, this might be better. Like don't fucking matter until you have customers. So that's just the way I've always approached it which is probably. I'm quite high, high risk I suppose which has maybe got me in hot water in the past like going too quick. But I just think if something's working.

No, it's the best way.

Just put your, put your foot on the gas and like you'll figure it out.

Jump at the deep end in it.

Yeah, exactly.

How did you like even get into space goods and like how did you think of this brand idea?

Yeah, so I was having this conversation last night with this guy. I guess I probably need to like refine the founder story. But from a purely raw perspective, I'd always been interested in like psychedelics and like just general nootropics and obviously nootropics, illegal psychedelics aren't in the UK so I've only ever done them outside.

This is not advice, by the way.

This is not advice.

Yeah, yeah.

And then like I knew I wasn't going to stick around doing the Neon stuff. So the second that, you know, throughout like summer I'd. I've always had like a Google Drive of ideas. Like literally I could do this brand, I could do this brand. And I'd had the idea of doing something in the supplement space and it literally was a case of like started with that general interest. Like I guess it was something I cared about like mental well being and because it's probably been like my biggest challenge my entire life to be honest. And then I literally like reverse engineered. I was like, right, this time I'm gonna get it right. So what were the problems last time? So things like I didn't have a high, A repeat purchase rate so I need someone that can subscribe to. I want a small product, at least an 80% product margin which Neon never had Midnight did but you know all these things that tick boxes and I was like, well you know, it could be one of a few things. It could be like oral care stuff which I actually nearly launched by the way.

Like what? The whole like, teeth whiteness.

And then I came back, I was like, fuck that.

Yeah.

Then I thought it could be like, you know, some sort of. I thought he was a really interesting brand.

Yeah. Business.

I use that all the time. So I thought, could we try and compete with fuel? And I thought, I'm not that passionate about it. I think it's probably a bit crowded. And then I was like, well, nootropics. And I've always been interested in, like, I used to take like, dirty, like, pills and barley. Like, like, I've always been interested in like cognitive performance. And I was like, well, that's all great, but there's obviously a lot of competition in that space already anyway.

Yeah.

And then I was like, well, psychedelics are illegal, but I think there's gonna be. I think it's 10 years behind CBD in terms of like commercializing what. What used to be taboo, you know, Like, I don't like CBD personally. I don't smoke weed or any of that. But a lot of people love it. Like you've got like, trips, drinks. Trip drinks, whatever that is. So that's a great example of a brilliant brand that, particularly in the uk has like, dominated that space.

Yeah.

But then obviously, you know, you can't sell psychedelics. But then I was like, well, there's like natural mushroom ingredients like lion's mane and which I've taken before. And like, it helps me feel more calm and focused. Xyz, like, similar effect to CBD in many ways, just from a mushroom angle rather than. Right, right. Cbd, weed, all that. And then I was like, okay, all the brands in this space are very like vanilla is what I'd say. They're all very like blue, black, gray, like, aimed at middle aged women. They're all in capsule form and I can't swallow tablets. All right, so this is a weird thing. So I tried a new Tropic product last year and it was all. My mate gave it to me, was like sponsored by it and it was like all capsules. So I had to like pour. I literally can't swallowed it. This is just like a terrible experience. So I was like, well, there's got to be space for a brand that firstly doesn't do it in like such a medical way. It's more like enjoyment, like fun. Gummies, powders. Yeah, you want to drink or eat or whatever. Yeah. Similar to how Tripp have done it.

From a cbd, colorful packets and cans.

And then I was like, well, the mushroom space, like, isn't that crowded yet in terms of like Lion's main nootropics, all this sort of shit. But they're certainly not a brand that's pushing like the psychedelic angle, which. Which is a bit risky, I think. I mean, I'll find out.

Yeah.

And then I was like, well, you know, microdosing, like psilocybin and shit is like massive over in like San Francisco and still illegal. But it's a big, like underground movement for all that shit, you know, it can help you work better, more creative. Xyz, like can basically cure depression. There's a load of fucking studies going on now. Yeah, it's like a Netflix documentary. I forgot what it's called. I think it's a guy called. Is it Patrick Carhartt Harris or something? I should know his name. It's some big scientist who's like research, like devoted his life to like psychedelics and shit. So watch that documentary if you haven't. And there's definitely like an underground wave of. I just feel that like actual psychedelics are going to become just upcoming, more legalized over time.

Yeah.

But for now, the way I'm positioning it is effectively like the products are illegal. Microdose imitation.

Right, Right.

Which might sound ludicrous, but it's like introducing people to the cognitive effect of certain shit you take, which is like, obviously like the first product is called Rainbow Dust. It's essentially, you know, stuff that's already out there. To be quite honest with you, it's just probably a slightly more potent blend. But the way I'm positioning it is this is like. It's almost like an education brand as much as it is a product.

Yeah.

That's where I want to go with it. But yeah, I guess in a nutshell that's kind of how I came towards. It was like a few different things. I came from like an initial personal interest. Then I thought, fuck me, this could be like a billion pound industry or a billion pound brand potentially.

And then you're.

Your personal experience with it as well.

And then aesthetically, it's very much me. So I think as a brand, visually, it's like my best work because, like.

Yeah, right.

I've like done it all. Like, I mean, I'd like use developers and shit, but like creatively, like, I haven't outsourced anything. Like the whole visual aesthetic, like the colors, the logo, all that is on me. And I. I guess it feels like a combination of everything I've done in the past has led me to like this next one.

I love the Name as well.

Space.

Do you know when you plan on launching?

March. March.

Okay. That's soon.

So, yeah, no pressure, but the fucking product better arrive in time. So one product. One is in development. But right. The way I see it going in terms of products, I'm probably giving away way too much here. But I think there's three primary, like, desires from a human perspective that this product can help with or this type of product can help with. Probably four, but I think three main ones. The first one is like focus and like work mode, which is the first one I'm focusing on. The second one is sleep and like general, like being able to fall asleep, all that shit. Super valuable. And the third one actually I thought was gonna be like mood, but I think that kind of falls into the other two. I think the third one is sex because I'm super interested in how I know, you know, guys, myself included. I've taken my Viagra before and like, Silas. Whatever. Not all the time. Mainly when I was out in Bali in the past. I got it from Mate in Bali originally. And like, people watching whatever it's like to do, but everyone's taking it. Yeah. And then. Yeah. I just think that's quite an interesting category, but I think that's like longer term. But in terms of like the first year, an actual product type. The first product is a powder.

Yeah.

So something you can mix with anything, basically. Like mix it with coffee, mix it with water, whatever, like low calories, et cetera, et cetera. Second product is going to be gummy. I think gummies are great.

Yeah.

They're massive in America particularly. The problem with gummies is you can't get much ingredients into them. I've learned.

Right.

In the past few months. And then like cans and bars, I think, because I think something like this could be massive in like Selfridges, Waitrose, even like wholesale.

This is what I was thinking. Yeah. I mean, which I've never done before, advertising wise. Would. Would it be allowed, like Facebook, let's.

Say, elements of the way I'm positioning it. I think my be a problem. But in terms of actual products. Yes. Because there's a billion and one brands, you know, selling ultimately similar ingredients already.

Yeah.

But it's the first time I've gone into consumables of any kind. Right. So in terms of like, I won't say which supplier I'm working with, but like, instead of going straight to China, which is ultimately where everything's made, including, like everything that says they're made in the uk, it's probably sourced from China.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I'm using like a product consultant basically, which is a bit of a middleman. No, effectively like a lab that can, you know, tell me what I can and can't do.

Right.

Tick the right boxes and just bring my vision to life.

Yeah.

So it's literally a case of like I got on a call with them a few months ago. I was like, don't know what the fuck I'm doing when it comes to like ingredients. I'm not scientists. I take.

Just tell them what you want and.

Then how for can we make this without being illegal? How can we make it look like this?

Get the packaging QC pretty much on.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And they effectively become like your in house nutritionist and like product development team, I guess, you know, they put a bit of a margin on it and pay them a development fee, all that sort of. So that's the way I'm working, working with it because I didn't want to be in a position where I go to some supplier in China.

Yeah.

XYZ ingredients together, it turns out.

Yeah.

Someone.

When it comes to like, yeah.

You'Ve got to be very careful.

So, yeah, I was conscious of that, which is probably me being slightly less risky for the first time in my life. Yeah. But yeah, that's the plan really. And then, yeah, I've gone down the fundraising route with this, which I think I've mentioned briefly on my previous pods or whatever. But the reason for that is twofold. It's firstly, I could have funded it myself. It wasn't that primarily. It's kind of two things. At first I didn't want to be the only shareholder because I learned the hard way that can be very lonely when shit goes wrong. If you're the only one that, you know, everything falls with you. If something goes wrong because you're the Director, you own 100% of it, whatever, like it was for me last time. But secondly, like, like I was saying before, like the whole strategic narrative, which is a term this guy Alex was on my pod has got me on in terms of like, how do I actually position this brand to make sure I can make 100 million quid in the next five years. Okay. Because that's what I want to do because, like, it's one thing having, well, I guess it's a few things. Like this brand I genuinely feel like can have a positive impact on people, which is gives it definitely like a mission because like I said, mental health has been a big struggle for me. I want to do Something in that space. But I'm also very conscious of to have an impact you need to have fucking money. And to have money you need to have a. Probably backing to an extent. But be a product that she sells. So you know, I don't want to be a science company that's developing something.

Yeah.

That's why for now it's a. It's a product that is legal and you know, leads towards that. So where was it going? So that. That's the reason I'm doing that to. And yeah, like just I've got a bunch of my mates invested actually and then two other guys who. One of them is. Yeah. Runs a company now. It's valued at like 2 billion quid. So like they know how to. He's actually coming on my pod. It's Jack from Wayflyer. So they're the guys that you bailed me out? Yeah, yeah, I think I can say that it's in like probably the main. So yeah, he's the biggest single investor and the reason I wanted someone like him on board is probably can't add much from an econ perspective that much because it's not his bag.

Yeah.

But what he knows is how to scale a company.

That's it.

Like they've gone 0 to 250 employees and I think 2 billion dollar valuation in less than 3 years.

Just the experience, isn't it?

That's just mad thing.

That's ridiculous.

And yeah like I've come to the conclusion now as well. I'd rather have 30% of a 500 million pound business which by the way haven't fucking done that would be insane. But then 90% of a 10 million pound business. Business.

Yeah, yeah.

All the boats on your shoulders that way then.

Yeah, I've. I think like just. I want to step away from the screen a little bit as well to an extent. Like obviously still in the early stages, very much in the trenches but you know, I want my day to day to be filled with more like speaking to like advisors, investors, whatever, whatever. Like even last night I met with these guys who were interested in potentially investing. I don't think I need their money at the minute but like they were throwing out loads of ideas. XYZ thing that we could potentially do and like and these are guys that been in the game like 40 years and I've definitely. I've got to the age now I realize how much I don't know. Whereas when you're a bit younger I think you're arrogant and you think I just do it all myself, like, I'm a baller. All this.

I'll take it all.

You want to just get the people who are the best at what they can do. Yeah, exactly. That's how it is.

So, yeah, that's really the plan is. Yeah, I mean, try and have a massive impact product wise and what I'm doing. But yeah, I think it's an interesting thought experiment to say, like. And everyone says 100 million quid and it's just like an easy round number. But how can you get there in two years? Yeah, which is probably pushing it. But like, it's like a game, just stretching the mind and you can't do that yourself on a laptop in a bedroom.

I've always said this, like, the power of delegation of roles is actually unrivaled because if you have someone who's amazing at editing and they're editing it rather than you and you focus on something else, that bits being done for you professionally at the greatest hit, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm actually so at that. Like, I'm. Even when I was obviously, like, it wasn't just me doing everything with Neon and Midnight, but I was so at delegating anything, like even customer service at the start because I thought I could do it better and I probably could do it better to an extent, but because I'm pretty well rounded in that respect. But it's just impossible. You can't do it, especially in this game.

Time is money, man. 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. So honestly, I'm so bad at that. Like, it's just shit at hiring and like organizing teams because I think as well it's a bit of like I ended up getting a few employees in in the end. Like actual pay employees before shit went it. So that was a bit of a mess. But even then it was like imposter syndrome because a lot. Few of them are older than me and I just found that quite difficult. But then you look at businesses like Gymshark and think, well, you know, Ben Francis was 23 when he brought his CEO and the guy was like 50.

Exactly.

So he must have got.

What was it? You just thought that you weren't qualified enough for it.

I don't know what it was just a weird like, this guy's older than me and they're working for me go concept. It was a great job for them and it's just to get past.

Yeah.

But yeah, I've always just been shitter because like I can do like put me, lock me in a room And I'll make get any brand to a million quid in revenue. I'm certain of it. Yeah. In a certain amount of time, like anything. But if I want to get to that next level and do something like take it from being a big bedroom brand to being a legitimate corporation, I mean that's what I'm really trying to get my head around. And yeah, I've got a guy called Jimmy coming on the podcast who sold a brand called Hair Burst recently and he's been speaking to me quite a bit. It's kind of like mentoring me a little bit. And he was telling me about that, like that's the biggest change in terms of going from like making a bit of money, like from a laptop to positioning a business that you can actually make like a real business.

That's it. Because even when especially drop ship doesn't.

Yeah.

So easy.

Real corporate fucking business systems underneath you.

And stuff like that.

Yeah. And I think that's where I've been having a challenge getting my head around. But I'm intentionally positioning the next one. So right from the start it looks like that because even now like one of, one of the investors, Alex, he came on my pod, he's like the smallest cash investor but now we're doing like twice a month. He's like mentoring me because he sold a business and made multi eight figures. He's been there. Like that's happened, John. Mean, he's been where I've been at the start. So just being humble enough to realize I don't know what I'm doing because I literally feel like I don't know anything. No, yeah.

Seriously.

Yeah. I mean, I know what I'm good at, but in terms of like, you know, getting to the big leagues, like actually making like, you know, 50 million quid personally or whatever, which everyone says they want to do and that's great, but you're not going to do it sitting in a bedroom.

I always wonder though, like how complex is it? How complex does it get? How high level does it get? You know what I mean? I don't know. You can never know until you do it.

What kind of like differentiates being a bedroom brand to being like an actual.

Yeah, exactly. I'm fascinated by that.

It's crazy.

There's obviously a clear step there because Gymshark went from obviously in. In their homes.

Yeah.

Doing that to like still being. Well, it's the biggest. Is it the biggest E commerce brand in the UK?

Yeah. UK.

500 million pound revenue. Isn't it crazy? Yeah. So I've. Yeah. That whole concept and I think having spoken to a lot of people about it, like these investors, and it's just about. It's. Yeah. Removing yourself, giving it structure. And also like the whole strategic narrative, which I've said a billion times. I think it's so true. Like, how do you position the business.

Yeah.

To be worth a huge amount of money to the right buyer.

Got structured. Right.

Another one.

How does it appeal to them?

XYZ products. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm kind of wondering is how are you actually going to structure the. Your business differently now? Are you gonna actually, like, do like drops kind of. Or are you just gonna continuously sell it?

Yes.

I think one thing I learned the hard way with Midnight City particularly is I didn't have enough newness and newness cells. So what I mean by that is I would make sure I have something new every month going forward.

Okay.

Whether that's a new flavor, a new skew, a new product.

Okay.

Monthly subscription.

Yeah. Something a new flavor.

Yeah.

Yeah. Brands that do really well. Like I mentioned Sunichi, like, Fred's nailed that because he has something new all the time. Yeah. And. Yeah. Trying to get him on the pod. But. But I never. I think with Neon, it's a bit different because it's like customized products and shit. But with Midnight, I didn't launch a product for like nine months and it was doing super, super well.

Yeah.

In like 2019 and then 2020 because of like the COVID boom. To be honest, I was like, how the fuck is it selling so well? We have like three best sellers and they've been the same for a year.

He wants me to keep the customers excited.

Exactly. Just keep the brand fresh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that would be the genuine approach. Yeah. But. But it's. It's also a subscription brand, so, you know, it'll be. I mean, I'll probably play around with a few things, but every product, the intent is that people subscribe because they feel the benefit and they want to subscribe.

Yeah.

And that's also how you get, you know, raise the value of a business.

So many routes you can take with that as well. MRR is the new thing, you know.

Yeah. Almost view it like a fucking technology company. Yeah. Rather than just an econ brand selling a product.

A product.

Yeah.

So one. One thing that I really want to sort of touch on, sort of know a little bit more about, obviously yourself.

To our break.

Yeah. Which I'm just not going to address.

Yeah.

We will not talk about that.

Yes. So pretty much what is your like, routine like as like a high level entrepreneur?

Let's say Definitely not high level entrepreneur routine. Yeah. I work from home, so yeah, I've kind of always done that. Which we were saying before. I think there's pros and cons to it. Live the flatmate, he runs a similar business. I've always done that for the past three years since I've been in London. I guess I try and give it more structure now than maybe I used to.

Yeah.

Almost give myself like a 9 to 5. Because I think the irony is everyone like gets into entrepreneurship or whatever because they don't want to go down a nine to five.

Yeah.

But then as I've got older, I realized probably need a bit of structure. Like I try not to work on like weekends as much and shit because otherwise it's just. Or consumer. I suppose for me genuinely, I get my best work done in the morning. Like I'll do like eight or two. Right. Like kind of deep work. I don't, don't eat. Like eat after. Well ate. You're like 2pm, have my lunch. Then I'll go like.

So you're looking forward to it. You're like, yeah, I'm gonna work for this food.

Yeah. Legit. Like. Well, I've just like always like intermittent fasted, but didn't even. I don't even think of it as a thing. I just don't eat breakfast genuinely. But that's never even been like a biohacking thing. I don't like breakfast.

Yes.

I like having coffee and mushroom. Coffee is. And then, yeah. Generally go gym in like the afternoon. Probably like 3, 4pm Want my dog. Which I now have my dog. Yeah. My little miniature sausage dog is on the product.

I saw him.

He's cute.

And then. Yeah. Then I guess what I do after that I go like sauna and try and meditate.

Yeah.

Which I'm trying to do more of now.

This is it. Obviously.

Yeah. A lot of people are talking about this now.

So meditation. Right. You've been. I know you posted on like your Twitter and what. What is it?

It's like floating sensory deprivation. Yeah. I literally. I've done that twice in my life. I've only started doing that.

Yeah.

Literally two weeks ago. But yeah, I just. My mind is super active. I think a lot of entrepreneurs are. I don't know if that's. As a result. It's probably partly because generally smarter people build businesses arguably like in a certain way of thinking, like active minds. But also you've got a lot going on. Like, you don't. You don't leave it in the office.

It's like a million ideas always going around your head.

Yeah, I've always just been a massive overthinker.

Yeah.

Like I was saying before, like, I try and say, well, that must mean I'm smart or whatever, just to, like, justify it. But, yeah, I think I've never really. I think, like, feeling at peace and shit is become more of a priority as I've got older again. I don't know, maybe it's because of how much stress I went through last year and I just felt like shit for ages. And yeah, I'm by no means good at meditation, but I'm definitely trying to get my mind as the priority going forward because nothing else matters, really. If you don't get that in the right headspace, that's it, man. If you're.

If you're trapped in your own mind, then you can't do anything.

Not free. Yeah.

Yeah. I find it hard to work when there's just a lot on my mind, you know? I mean.

Oh, honestly, like, even I think I put on Twitter the other day. I started using Twitter just as like a fucking. I never used to share that much, but it's, like, interesting to look back on in a few years, I suppose. And the first three weeks of Jan, I felt so motivated and everything felt really clear and good. Then we had a massive weekend. This weekend gone. I was doing dry January while I was trying, and then I think that just me up, not so dry dry. I texted my ex girlfriend and.

Oh, damn, fast.

No, honestly. Yeah, and then, like, I blocked her on Instagram and I unblocked her and, like, got in my head so bad. And that's not a good combination.

Like, was that because of alcohol?

Yeah, 100%. And like, honestly, like, part of me thinks I should do like a year and I drink, but I mean, like, there's obviously levels to it. If I have a bottle of wine, it's fine, but if I go out to 5:00am, two days.

Moderation.

Yeah.

In moderation.

I don't do that shit anymore. And honestly, yeah, I've had anxiety, like all week, so only, like, feeling a bit better today.

Well, you're retiring from nights out.

I really feel like I should, like. Yeah, honestly, that whole. That whole, like, ball in a club, like, whatever. Like, it's cool when you're younger. I'm just kind of over it.

The thing is, he's still got to force me to come out on nights out. You still got Your calm.

Calm.

I think I've realized, like, I've never been like. Even I was in uni, I was never like that into, like, big nights out. I much prefer, like, going to a bar. Yeah. With, like, mates or whatever.

Civilized sort of, like restaurants.

Yeah. Honestly, like, sounds silly, but, like, I think this whole, like, Grey Goose bottle show stuff is actually sparklers and everything.

Yeah.

It is cool if you're celebrating something, which. But most people aren't really celebrating something. I think they're just trying to go every weekend.

Yeah.

Yeah. Expensive in London.

Yeah.

Celebrating the useless.

I've never. I've never been sucked into that.

Have you seen people, like, being sucked down into, like, obviously go into money and then kind of go down that cycle?

Well, I mean, I probably did that to an extent when I was a bit younger, like, just going out, partying and stuff. But I've never. I'm much happier. Like I said, I have, like, a glass of wine, like a conversation rather than just can't hear anyone. It's never been my scene. I think probably a lot of people pretend it's their scene to look cool.

Or whatever and just fit in.

Yeah. And even, like, kind of getting deep here. But even, like on, like, Twitter, like, I tweeted about my ex girlfriend. This comes up in every post, my mind right now. Yeah. And I was like, oh. Like, I'm like, like emotional about it or whatever. And like, you get so many guys that, like, I'll just get over it. So, like, get more hoes or whatever. It's like, mate, come on.

Come on.

I don't know. I don't think that's what I think. That's just a front. I really do.

So would you say, like, the whole, like, girlfriend thing is that, like, does it keep you grounded? Maybe the fact that when you did have a girlfriend, it kept you grounded.

Yeah. So I've debated this since. In the past few months, since. Since I broke up with her, which I'm definitely not over. If she's watching, shout him. Yeah, I mean, I. I definitely. I was a bit of a dick. Looking back in certain. Certain cases, I was in a bad headspace. I didn't do anything particularly wrong. I just probably said things I shouldn't have said and so on. But yeah, definitely regret that because she definitely had my back and shit. It's kind of deep. Start crying. But what was I saying? Yeah. I've come to the conclusion, I think it is more productive if you've got a girl that's you're on the Same page with. Yeah, I think Iman said it in my book.

I was literally about to say toxic.

Relationship is the worst.

There's, like different levels.

Being like, actively single is slightly better. As in, like chasing girls and shit.

Yeah.

Probably everyone does to a certain extent when they're younger. Being like an average relationship is good. Then he was like, monk mode. Single is even better. But I don't really. I get like, lonely if it's like monk mode specs, I need to, like, see people or like. And then like, the best thing is having a great relationship. So. Yeah, I think. I think I've. I prefer probably having a good relationship than being single. As an entrepreneur, I think it's ultimately more productive because you're not going out partying and whatever. Like chasing girls. Even though not really doing that right now. Yeah. I don't know.

Do you ever have, like, phases of like, monk mode or like.

I've never done that. Yeah, I probably should. I'd like to try it. I've probably just lived in more moderation. Generally, I think, like, not. I've got. I've done like two or three months not drinking in periods, which definitely helps me keep my own mind in check because I. I just noticed like, if I drink loads, just gets me in a bad headspace.

Yeah.

I mean, it does with everyone. Like, you do stupid, like text your ex, which then brings out a bunch of other problems. He's off. What did I say? What didn't I say? So, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah.

It's about find a balance. As I've got a bit older, I'm starting to think, like, I don't. I'm definitely not like a player or lad anymore. Like, I don't want to be that.

I don't think most people are. They just.

When I was like.

They're just influenced into it, man.

That's it. They want.

So toxic being toxic.

Yeah. I really don't buy into this toxic masculinity. Like.

Yeah.

Playing like, literally, like, guys will say like hoes and like. Yeah. I think that's not me at all. I'm like a romantic cunt. Like, if I like a girl, then it's like love. Do you know what I mean? And that's very rare for me because not many girls have had that feeling for.

Right.

Obviously did with my ex girlfriend. Still do.

Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know where it's going. I've been deep in my feels about it.

It's just a situation, isn't it? You Know what I mean? It's.

Yeah, I think, I think she, it's a relationship podcast. I think stress that I was under made me say and do things that weren't a true reflection of my character in hindsight. And I'm not proud of some things I said to her and so on.

Yeah, I guess everyone makes mistakes at some point.

Yeah, I definitely made a mistake in that respect. I probably didn't appreciate her looking out for me in the way she did because I think it's quite rare. I think most girls wouldn't do that. I guess even girls wouldn't do that.

As entrepreneur, like there's always so many things going on, you know, I mean there's always a new, a new project or something you got focus on. You can just easily distract yourself with it. But yes, it's so easy to just also just forget what's in front of you. I don't know, like I've also just had things just in general, just anything like relationship wise, I don't know, don't do them. I don't really like that. But, but obviously I'm just talking about in general like business, families. It's always so hard to just, I don't know, there's so many things going on.

Yeah, you have to find a middle ground.

So hard to find a balance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like it's something I've debated with my mates a lot and they're all entrepreneurs, like similar age, some are older, some younger. But some people have this idea that like you have to make it before you can have a relationship, which I don't subscribe to by the way. And then, you know, it's in like they say, like you can't go near girls. Like you have to focus, focus, focus. Girls are a distraction, blah, blah. But then at the same time, like I said, if you're single you have needs. Like you're going to want to speak to girls. And so that's why I think I've come to a conclusion. For me, I'd rather be in a healthy relationship if it's right then, you know, just being single for the sake of. Oh, I've got to focus on. I feel like there's gonna be less focus anyway. I mean, I don't know, maybe it's rose tinted looking back, but there's, there's definitely. I like having someone to cuddle at the end of the stressful day.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's what I've definitely missed in recent months. And then it's like, ah, I Mean.

I think you just worked out what it is that you want. Like obviously different people at different stages in their life will want.

Yeah. That's what you learn. I don't know. It feels like there's unfinished business there for me, to be honest, with my ex girlfriend, if she's watching, which she probably isn't, I don't know, make it.

Into a clip or something.

So do you think you learned a lot about yourself?

Yeah.

Throughout that period of time?

Yeah. Do you know what as well? Like it's like anything in life. I feel like there's four pillars to like a truly successful life. It's like health, wealth, love and happiness. Right. It's not just money, it's. And a lot of people, like, I think it's human nature, particularly like guy nature. When you're younger you like want to chase the bag.

Chase the bag, yeah. Literally about to say that.

Yeah. And then you probably sacrifice like your mental health. I've certainly done that. But without that you've got nothing anyway. And then it's like health worth, love and happiness. I suppose like, like happiness ultimately is actually the goal. Like.

Yeah, yeah.

Like regardless of anything else, you have to make a bit of money and do some stupid shit and realize what doesn't make you happy to kind of realize that. But I think to be properly happy you have to have for me at least being more self aware now I want to be able to chase a mission but also have like a relationship with mates, probably a better relationship with my parents which I've probably not invested enough in over the years. And ultimately yeah, like I look at someone like Scooter Braun is like successful. I don't look at someone like Drake as, as like successful in my view as, as successful as him because he's got like no family life and I don't know, like my uncle probably shouldn't say this but he's a super successful entrepreneur. But I've always looked at him and thought, but you have no family life. He's like divorced twice, doesn't see his.

Daughter, I guess you could say successful in one aspect.

I just don't see that as fully successful.

It's a whole circle. There's a range of things.

Yeah, for me it's like, yeah, I guess like my, you know, 15, 20 year vision is like when I've built something great, made all the money xyz. But then what does it matter if you don't have a good circle of not just romantically like family, but also like a good circle of like Guy friends, girlfriends, whatever it is. Like. Yeah, I don't know. I think. Yeah. Maybe in the past year I've started to realize more what actually, like, adds up to be truly, like, the full picture. And it's different for everyone. I think too many people kind of just bullshit themselves thinking, oh, success is getting the bag, fucking dropping money in a club. And that is all cool.

Yeah.

But for me, like, I'm just happier, like, honestly, like, walking my dog and having a conversation with simple things.

Yeah.

Do you think your goals have changed since you were, like, 15, 16, looking into E Comm form and stuff like that?

And then.

Yeah, I mean, when it started, it was like, you know, the goal was buying Audi R8. Like, I think everyone starts with material goals because they're more precise and it's more easy to say, like, you know, I'll buy that car and then I've done it, or whatever, but then you realize that's not it. And then for me, that, like, whatever, cars were like, the material thing I chase and. And I think that's good. But, yeah, Christ. Getting pretty philosophical. But I think you realize I've realized as I've got a bit older, which I keep saying because I feel like I'm getting old now. But it's a more holistic picture. Like, I don't think you. I don't think the person that's made 100 million quid but has to do drugs every Tuesday to feel healthy is successful.

Oh, yeah.

They're successful in one way, at the.

Expense of their health.

Nice.

Yeah. And I probably used to think, you know, anyone that doesn't chase money, like, I don't know, I don't think I was ever chasing money anyway. I was chasing freedom and excitement.

Yeah.

And then money was a vehicle for that.

Yeah.

That's where I think, like, my parents have got me wrong in the past saying that you chase money. All this. My dad still says that. It's just not true. If I was chasing money, why would I, Like, I should I go get a job in, like, banking? Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't sell pink lights on the Internet. Yeah. That's much more flamboyant.

I mean, you genuinely enjoy making obviously, like, space, because, like, a brand like that, if you genuinely enjoy, then, yeah, you may be getting money, but you're. You're chasing your passion.

Yeah. And I think you just realize, like, you have to make money to be able to chase your passion. And like. Yeah, there's so many avenues to go down with that. But, yeah, I suppose I'VE realized now probably what makes me happy and I view success is, is more the four pillars. Health, wealth, love and happiness.

Yeah.

And obviously like work and businesses takes up most of your chunk in life time wise.

Yeah.

But I think there's always time for the other stuff as well. Like there's an interesting analogy. Analogy. I don't know if it's like a YouTube video, whatever. There's like a guy that puts like stones into a jar and he's like this looks full and he had sand and he said oh it looks full now. Then he has water and it's. And it's in the still room.

Yeah.

And like the message there is like such when people say like they don't have time for make time like I don't know family or friends or relationships. It's ultimately just priorities and being self aware and. Yeah. I suppose I feel like my age now for everyone, not just entrepreneurs is kind of like that weird stage where like you're like a proper adult now. Like you're not like a 18 year old where I felt like a lot younger but you're not. I haven't got like wife and kids yet. Probably like at least five years, five, ten years before that. I mean depending on whatever. And like relationships, like the relationship I was in with my ex girlfriend like that was like well I thought we'd probably get married one day.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? I don't know, maybe we'll get back together. But yeah, like the dynamic with everything changes because if I'm like getting into business with someone or into relationship with someone now it's like it's pro. I'm probably hoping it's going to be longer term because otherwise why would I bother it.

Yeah. There's no, there's no point thinking about like the short term at this point. You know, I mean like just even in general, like even with me, like I'm like yeah, like I'm sure I got a lot of time but like why do I need to focus on the short term? You know, I mean like let me just think about the long term. Like yeah, like it's cool to get a bit of money. Like you know just, just run up wherever like quick things. But at this point now just in.

General with everyone, it's a lot of like existentialism.

Yeah. And it's so evolved.

Yeah.

Realistically like there's no value in money. Like it's literally. It's non fungible like you can't touch money even though you have. If you had a 20 pound note. Like. Yeah, that's just a medium of exchange. And realistically if you're working a 9 to 5 sometimes you can be happy but if you're not, then you're medium of exchange is your mental health.

Yeah.

Realistically your, your suffering to make other people rich who are probably not happy anyway. It's a whole vicious cycle.

Yeah.

Yeah. I also think like another toxic trait and like, and I think I've been misinterpreted on my own pod and stuff and like my own family members. Like I'll like jokingly say like civilians or whatever. Not everyone. Like I'm not on nine to fives at all. All I have problem with is people that want to do something and don't pursue it. I think that's, that's the problem.

100.

I think 99.9 of people are probably happier not building their own business. I mean I almost wish I was one. Yeah. I'm not like I've never, when I've said like, you know, entrepreneurs versus it's an entrepreneurial podcast. So like that's the audience. But like my, my twin, I have a twin brother, non identical twin brother, complete opposite to me. We don't look alike. He has a 9 to 5, so to speak. Good job. And, but it's very different to me. Like and there's elements of that that I'm envious of. Like he's definitely probably happier than me in many ways. Certainly has been. It's a lot more stable. You know, he can kind of switch off a lot more than I can. Yeah, he's. Yeah. Like just less high risk. I suppose. So. Yeah. I don't want for a minute people to think when I talk about like distinction between entrepreneurs and civilians, which is a completely sarcastic tongue in cheek turn but like just people that aren't entrepreneurs. People should just be self aware and I think most people would be happier doing something that isn't entrepreneurialism because it's difficult. But only I only pursue this because I couldn't do anything else. Like I would quite happily. You know, I think there's a billion great careers that people can pursue. The only problem, the thing I have, empathy. Well, the thing that frustrates me when I like my own mates, for example, from home, which aren't all entrepreneurs at all, is when they don't like what they're doing but they're not willing to even back themselves.

Yeah.

I think that's the saddest thing. When someone can't even if it's like to go and get this dream job after uni, like they just actually sell.

Playing with no intent to actually change.

Yeah.

Or to. Yeah, exactly. That's issue what it is. And I feel like even just the whole like nine to five topic, wherever I was so careful because I know that it's so easy to be like, especially all entrepreneurs, it's so easy to be like ignorant about that type of thing. You know what I mean? Because we just can't imagine anything different, you know, I mean like, it's at least with me, like I've obviously I've never had a job.

Yeah, well, and also as well, people saying that they forget, if you want to build a big business, your entire team is going to be nine to five.

Yeah, exactly.

You need them and your customers. Exactly. So, yeah, like, I don't want anyone to think the message I'm putting out is. Yeah, that's like some. I literally think entrepreneurship is like an illness and if you have to scratch it, do it. But I think the sad thing is it's just simply everyone should. Everyone knows what excites them deep down. Like, even if it's like something small, like, I don't know, you secretly want to start like a hair and makeup YouTube channel. Your friends are telling you, oh, that's embarrassing. Yeah, start.

Do it, man.

Also really have a rethink about your friends. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So just little things I like is. Yeah. Like, I don't know, everyone has probably something that they know they would like to do or some people don't as much. Some people genuinely probably are happy. Well, although like happy in their job and there's no major ambitions and whatever. That's fine. Like their ambition might be just to fucking have a chill life. And that's. I'm kind of envious of that as well to an extent.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think the point is just the saddest thing is when people don't even try something that they want to do. If you don't want to do it, that's fine.

Obviously. Back in the day you said that you did like, you know, YouTube did a bit of vlogging stuff. You also said you did a bit of music.

Yeah.

There's anything you'd still thinking of doing?

Well, I used to want to be in like a band. That was like my thing when I was like. Well, I actually did. There was like a few obsessions when I was younger. I did rowing for like eight years. That was my life. So I wanted to be an Olympic athlete.

Right.

And I was pretty good. Like I was like as a junior national champion twice and all this. If anyone rowing, they'll probably laugh, but it's very niche sport. Right.

Right.

I've got a mate who's in the Olympic team now and is that the.

Ones doing the podcast?

No, but that's another guy. Yeah, from the same setup. But it's just not for me because I realized I kind of fell out of love with the sport and I probably wasn't quite good enough for the Olympics anyway. But that was like my first obsession that, that taught me like work ethic, honestly, more than anything, because I'll be in a boat at 6am, 12 years old on literally an icy river in York up north. And that was the first time ever where like I realized if you put effort into something, you can actually go and be good at it or be great at it.

There's progress. Yeah.

100 like. Yeah. So that's probably where I learned a lot of just hard work, to be honest. And then, yeah, the whole music thing, I kind of went through a phase, like an emo phase when I was like 16. I was always into music. Like I played guitar, sang a bit, I used to go busking and shit.

Oh, nice.

I'm definitely not like that good at singing. I'm actually better at freestyle rapping. Honestly, I'm pretty good.

Crazy.

Maybe we can do it the end. Yeah, let's do it. But then, yeah, I had my. I had like a YouTube channel when I was like 17 doing like Justin Bieber covers and it's so cringe, but I used to get like 5, 000 views. And then people said I look like Niall Horan and all this. But I was self aware enough. So now I wasn't quite good enough for the singing thing. But yeah, then I had like the vlog channel. Right. So I guess I always had a bit of me wanted to like put content out. But to be honest, like, yeah, I mean they were never probably the right things. Whereas the podcast now feels, oh, this is like the right thing.

Yeah.

But yeah, even for me, like I stopped doing like the music because someone from school said it was gay or whatever. I remember that.

Yeah.

And then that's kind of deep.

But yeah, so that, I mean, because even like with all of us, we've been in school very recently, you know, I mean like I, I still have so like vivid memories of just everything, man. And like I even remember like people telling me like I had one person when I was speaking about business a little bit. I Never spoke.

I.

No one knew what I did. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I wouldn't tell people anything. And I was still obviously doing jobs or whatever then. Even when I was in, like, when I was getting it to work, no one knew from my school. But this is before when I didn't get it to work. You know, I was trying, whatever. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna make this business. X, Y, Z, let me do this. And someone literally told me, said, you're not an entrepreneur. You are not. You can't be.

Yeah.

Just watch.

You know what I mean? And then obviously, yeah, that's it. But I feel like I remember from school, just in general, it was so toxic.

Just anything.

If you had a dream and you've actually. Everyone was. No one said about their dream.

Yeah.

No one would even say anything like. Which is away from the norm because it was so weird. But I was always one of the people who. I just didn't really care. I was just. I wouldn't tell people anyway because it doesn't affect me if they know or not. But, like, if I was gonna do it, I was gonna do it. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I think, like, the one message I've said a billion times, like, it's like, with trolls on the Internet as well.

Nothing better to do.

Man. People that hate on anyone in, like, any respect, particularly online, just aren't doing anything with their own lives.

Yeah.

And you really should feel sorry for them.

That's it.

Because I can't think of a time I've ever written a negative comment on the Internet ever. Even if there was something to write about.

Exactly.

Why would I put it out there?

Yeah. It's just. It's just wasting your own time as well.

Yeah. It's about. Don't be a complete cunt people, for a start. Yeah. Like, if. You know, it's so true, like, haters aren't doing anything more than the people are hating on.

I don't know anyone who's winning.

That's usually just like projecting their own insecurities.

Insecurities.

Yeah. It gets deep.

Yeah.

Literally.

And they're helping our engagement.

Going home or something. God knows. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. I think anyone that's writing hate comments should seek help because it's probably their own problems and.

And they're helping our engagement as well.

Yeah. Facts with the new on beach hate. Did you do any therapy thing or anything like that? Is there anything that maybe you did this to handle it? Because.

I definitely need A therapist now. I think I've had like therapy on and off over the years. Yeah, I actually ended up speaking to some of that. There was a guy that made a Facebook group. It was like in his mid-50s. I mean, obviously shambolic excuse of a man, but. And he made a Facebook group that, like, started all this hate. And I ended up speaking to him on. He wouldn't go on a phone call with me. I was like, mate, let's just speak. I was trying to be like, empathetic strange this man was acting. But yeah, I was like email back and forth with him and I was just like. I think he was shocked how honest I was. And then the Facebook group ended up getting deleted because everything got resolved anyway. But that wasn't really what you asked. But yeah, I suppose, like dealing with shit like that head on sometimes. Yeah, is a better way to go. Or you just ignore it. But at the time it was pretty heavy, so I kind of couldn't. But yeah, I think like therapy in general. I mean, this is therapy. Therapy. Yeah. Yeah. I think particularly guys have an issue with like sharing their feelings and shit.

They put on a front man.

Whereas I'm like a fucking deeply emotional person. Like. Yeah, that's just who I am.

I'm not scared to admit that.

No. Whereas I think it's such a strange. Again, it's like the whole like social media thing. Everyone wants to pretend that, like, they've never felt sad and shit. Like, yeah, like my entire personality is like ups and downs. Like, yeah, it's just. I mean, it's probably like even to a pretty extreme extent. But yeah, I think just speaking about shit, that's it. Like, I mean, like, even me bringing up my ex girlfriend, like every podcast right now, it's just therapy for me because I feel like I need to say it because if you've got all.

Them thoughts in your head all the time.

Yeah, yeah. I think that was why I started the podcast as well. I think, like, all you can ever be in life is honest and authentic. I think that's what everyone should strive to be. Even if that honesty upsets people.

Yeah.

And. Or. Or admits that you're wrong. Do you know what I mean?

I hate to keep on talking about Neon beach, but obviously I don't want to like. Or anything like, but obviously the one thing which really stood out to me as well is I want to sort of know, like, at what point did you know, okay, I'm going to have to just like get in the process, dissolve. Not dissolve, but like, I'm going to have to like, yeah, I can't continue this business anymore.

It's. Yeah, yeah. That's actually an interesting question because I spoke with my mate, I probably, probably in a bit of denial how bad it was for a few months and then I finally like got proper advice. My accountant, which by the way, they were fucking awful. They were reputable firm. They just didn't, they did not help me enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway. And yeah, I think that was the biggest thing, I think. And that's one thing I mentioned the first pod, like one of the biggest lessons, I think when something's actually going wrong, whether it's in business or your mental health or anything, or even just like you're fucking sad about. Go just admit that you've got, you want to speak about something.

Yeah.

Or you've got a problem.

Accountability.

Yeah. Like, and I think people are afraid to like I was probably afraid a little bit because I thought like, like all my mates think I'm a successful guy because I had been and I still consider myself a successful person because I'm always pursuing. But like, even to like, like my own parents, like my girlfriend at the time, like, it was like, are they gonna think I'm some like, fraud? Like, is she like, you know, is she gonna leave me? Because I don't know, maybe we're not going to Novikov. Not that we ever did. That's just, I mean. But yeah, and by the way, that was never the case. She was never in it for that at all. Yeah, yeah, like that was like an ego thing you deal with.

Yeah.

And I think because so few people speak about just general day to day ups and downs, let alone like catastrophic failures like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. And yeah, like that's why I wanted to share the last story.

Like I really respect you for what you've done. Obviously actually talking about it. You made a whole podcast. Yeah. And if you haven't watched it as well, I would definitely link is in the description. Yeah. I've ever watched, to be honest with you. It's just so raw.

I probably, There's a lot I probably didn't even say in that. But yeah, like, yeah, I think just admitting when something's gone wrong is very hard because.

Was it a weight off your shoulders?

Yeah, it was a weight off my shoulder when I started like realizing that like this happens to businesses all the time. Like, yeah, going into debt and like getting bailed out and it's just shit.

Happens to the biggest of businesses you see like all the time.

Like these businesses, every Premier League club is insolvent. Yeah, yeah, like literally. But they all just have Arab money back in them so it's fine, something like that. But yeah, I think facing up to like the realities of going very wrong at a large scale, like a lot of money involved definitely like matured me and made me thicker skinned because now I just think like, how the fuck can I lose? Honestly do. It's almost like fearlessness, 100%. But yeah, you have to like face, face the fucking beast to do that. Like I could have very easily, you know, just shot my laptop, so to speak, when shit was hitting the fan. But like it was every day, like just 15 hours a day, so much out. And that was a horrible, horrible, horrible.

What was like the sorting stuff I did, just dealing with like a whole.

Fucking load of shit. Yeah, I mean it's probably a lot of, it's a lot of a blur looking back now, just like dealing with customers, firstly deciding what to do, like ultimately then, you know, speaking with funds and private equity groups that you know, can help with this sort of situation and getting advice in that respect.

How long did it take to like find closure after that business?

What like legally I meant.

No, no, like yourself, mentally, you know what I mean?

Oh, probably only in the past, like few months to be honest.

Crazy.

Yeah. Like that's why I wanted to move on to the next thing.

Yeah.

And use that as a. And probably start the podcast. That probably.

That's why I put a lot of closure on. That's definitely a good, good way.

Massive learning curve.

Yeah, definitely. Huge learning curve. And I was like, it, well, let's try and use it as a positive because my personality, I'd call myself like a cynical optimist. I think I put this on Twitter the other day. I don't know where I've come up with that but like I'll like take the piss out of my own fucking fuck ups now because like no one's got any dirt on me when I put it all online already. Like, yeah, I used to have a Ferrari. Now I don't, but I'll get another one next year. Like, yeah, okay. What can they say now? Do you know what I mean?

What was it like having a Ferrari?

Shit really? Because I mean I used to have an Audi R8, which I much preferred a green one. Should have kept that car. Great car, four wheel drive, much easier to drive in London. That Ferrari is just like honestly a bit embarrassing, to be honest. I don't know, something about it just.

Doesn'T Much tougher to drive as well.

Yeah, yeah, much tougher to drive like. Yes, Pay attention. Yeah, like rear wheel drive, big flappy paddle gearbox. All this. 2014 as well. So it wasn't actually that modern, but yeah.

Do you think it was an ego driven kind of purchase or actually wasn't.

To be fair, because I've always been super passionate about cars, like ever since I was like 50. 1212 even. I was always a petrol head, it was never.

What's your dream car? I'm really. Oh, you've had.

It was my dream car. I mean, where'd you. I guess where'd you go from there? He's always like levels up. I mean, I think, you know, having a Rolls Royce color and then something would be sick.

Oh, the Cully.

My mate Tyler got lent one for a week. We're driving that around Mayfair. The black badge, like 450 grand.

That's just been motivation.

Yeah, it is sick. But at the same time, I mean, to be fair now the next car I get, I reckon I'll get a pink Tesla and wrap it with the Space Goods logo.

Wait, there's. There's a way you can write no for sure.

Well, a Tesla's already. It's electric. And yeah, I think they'll actually be on brand as well because I want to get not this exact thing, but the exact like brand Pantone Pink and then put this like moon logo. What do you want to call it? Yeah, on the roof. Oh, and then put like a QR code. Yeah, I just think it would be like cringe a lot of people, but I think it looks sick.

No, that'd be, that'd be sick because people would like take photos, it would.

Turn heads and that's what matters eventually.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, what was I saying? Like, yeah, I've always loved cars, so it was never, it's never an ego thing, but I think a lot of people probably thought it was, but whatever, like, I mean, there's an element of it, like, especially when a bit younger, it definitely attracts attention in good and bad ways. Yeah, because I was in like a car club with a bunch of older guys that I met through just having that car. So, like, there are ways that having something like that can actually kind of pay for itself, so to speak. But at the end of the day, like driving around central London like, like my mate Tyler's got a hurricane perfume and spider and he's getting rid of that now because even he said like, geez, like, it's just pain in the Ass to drive.

It seems like I get tickets everywhere.

I go because people are, you know, they think you're trying to cause trouble.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And don't get me wrong, it's very cool. Like, I remember going on like a third date with my ex girlfriend. I picked her up in that Audi R8 and you feel like a fucking taller. But I mean, girls don't care about that. They honestly don't. I swear to God that they care more about, like, sending them flowers.

I'm taking notes here. It's a small thing.

It's a small thing.

No, seriously, I've learned that. And yeah, yeah, like, it's cool for you. Like, it's guys care about.

Yeah, yeah. Same with the gym.

Yeah, very true.

You know, the bigger you get, the more guys compliment.

Yeah, I think it's more the guys that compliment you in it.

Yeah, yeah. 100. So, yeah, cars are cool. And I'll definitely get another silly car again, because I love cars. I don't love the Flex. I've always loved cars, but there's definitely an element of. It's like kind of out of my system a bit. Sort of grant out of that flexi stage.

Yeah. I remember you talking about, like, on that growth your podcast a while back, you're talking about how one day you wanted to own a group of brands and that's how you like what you wanted your end goal to be.

Right?

Is that still the same?

Yeah, I can definitely see that. Like, I initially used to call my, like, group company, like, infinity85. So I had this infinity85.com and like, midnight and Neon ended up being the first two under that. And I don't know, I guess now because. Because I always think, like, yeah, let's try and, like, make all the money in the world before 30, whatever, like, whether it's 31 or 29, whatever, you know, like, it'd be nice to, like, be fully caked by 30 and, like, not have to worry about money ever again. Take care of your family, whatever, xyz. But then it's like, let's assume that happens because I'm sure it will. What? You've got 50 more years of a career. What the fuck are you gonna do? Yeah, you need. You need something to work on, keep.

You grounded in it.

So. And then I think, well, hypothetically, I build space goods and sell it. There's gotta be a next thing after that. And I don't know, I think a group of brands, because I've always worked on so many, like, brands and Shit, like someone like the Hook Group. So the founder, Matthew Moulding got the same first name. Must be a sign. He's like 55, billionaire.

Okay.

I'm sure he's not doing it for the money anymore, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, made all the money.

Obviously, with space because, like, you bringing value to your customers, you know, I mean, there's real value there. I'm sure there is. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I think just finding and you hear it from a lot of successful entrepreneurs. Like, George Heaton said it, like, it's about the mission and shit. And like, Gary Vee obviously pushes that message a lot. These guys have already made all the money, so it's probably easier to have that perspective. But yeah, it's also like, I always think about this, like, so say someone sends you 100 million quid to your bank account tomorrow. Right, Cool. What are you gonna do tomorrow? Granted, you might like, how would you change your life from what it is right now? For me, probably wouldn't change it much. Apart from I'd probably buy like 10 cars and I'd get my own podcast studio and like, you know, Mayfair, whatever. But like polish everything that much. That probably do differently ultimately. Yeah. I mean, I'd probably still do. I mean, I still want to build a business.

Yeah.

I might just hire people a lot quicker and maybe be in the trenches slightly less. But when you actually, like start to think about that, it's a bit scary. It's like, oh, then I should probably work on the stuff that I would do then, now anyway, and then. But as a result, I'll probably end up having enough of an impact to actually make all that money.

Yeah.

Which isn't the thing that you chase in the first place anyway. Yeah. Don't know. That's quite an interesting way of thinking about it. That's a mad perspective because people always think, and I've not made 100 million quid at all, but, you know. Yeah, that's. That's like. But people always think just like social media and. And like. And I thought myself and I spoke to my mates about it, you think, like, then it's done. Like, once I made, then it's done, then I can start my life.

Yeah, yeah. But it doesn't make sense.

Like, I don't know, I think you should pursue something and it's not all going to be fun and games at all, but, like pursue something which is net. Like net passion. If it's like, if the 10 of 10 of it that you love is worth it. It makes like the 9% whatever. Because every business and job has good and bad parts, everything. But if it's like net good for your soul, then you should probably do it, John. I mean.

Yeah, because then I guess even when issues arise, like you know that, you know, in the end it's, it's, you know, obviously when the issues are solved, you know, it's still, still for you.

You know, I mean subconsciously you want to wake up in the morning and work on that project. Even though there's the cons that come with it.

Yeah.

You want to get up and you want to do that task and you'll get it out the way because you want to do the next thing because that's actually your passion rather than ah, I'm slaving away at this. I just, I don't want to do it.

Was that what was like with Neon beach at the start?

Yeah. So the observation I had with all that shit was it went from like started being like a passion project like loving the star. And it's kind of the same with Midnight as well. But that didn't go wrong. So different. But then it just found myself like even when it was going quite going well before I hit the fan, I wasn't doing the bits I enjoyed anymore because suddenly I'd like team of 30 people in the Philippines which ultimately reported to me I had, you know, I had to step back and think about, oh, I'm a business owner rather. Rather than just like a creative making some shit.

Yeah.

So I mean like there's always gonna be an element of if you're trying to build a big business, like you probably can't just do like. I'm not gonna just do like logo design. You have to build a fundamental understanding. But yeah. What was the question?

I mean like, like with Newton beach, right?

Yeah. Like enjoyable.

Yeah.

To becoming less enjoyable. But the money was there so it was like exciting to then just being a fucking hellhole for like six months.

What kind of role would you want to working now in terms of your own business like space goods if you had all of the systems in place and then.

Yeah, honestly like I feel like where I'm best and I think I'm probably better than most people at this at my stage and like age and experience level is just kind of the ideas guy and like, like I said like 0 to 1.

Yeah.

I think I can do it in any industry. Yeah. To an extent. Like the creative vision, I suppose. I guess broadly speaking that's kind of like all the front end stuff I love genuinely. Yes. And like, you know, and I've built up enough of an understanding for like backend stuff like, you know, barcoding, 3PO, all the stuff that no one fucking talks about in any ecom stuff they all talk about ad spend. No one talks about.

It's all about roas.

No one talks about like customer service automation or like dealing with agencies or cash flow. Because it's fucking scary and boring.

I mean a lot of people don't get there.

Yeah.

At least in Orange shoe, I guess.

True. So yeah, I guess I'd like to just focus on the front end stuff. And probably the one thing I realized as well, which is why I want to spend less time just sat at a computer, is I want to do it with more people. Which is why I like the podcast because I found the most enjoyable time is just sitting, speaking about. I'm interested in not even necessarily doing it, just talking about it.

Like a social project sort of thing. So you all kind of build it together.

Yeah. Like one thing I was thinking as well, and I mean I'm probably getting so busy now, but like my focus now is the podcast on the new brand.

Yeah.

And I think they tie in nicely together. But I'd like to do some charity thing. I don't know, I was thinking about setting up a charity called Rock Bottom. I don't know what it is, I don't know how I position it. I don't know how it would work financially, technically or whatever. But like some element of the brand basically like a charity to support the mental health of entrepreneurs. Because I think it's such like mental health for young people in this generation, particularly like post Covid is fucking challenging for everyone.

Definitely.

But I think even more so I would say I'm someone that struggle with like poor mental health my entire life, to be honest. But then it's made even worse by the stresses of entrepreneurship.

Yeah.

And it's like it's a recipe for fucking disaster.

Yeah.

And yeah, I don't know, I'd like to potentially have some positive impact in, in that way.

I think that'd be amazing because as far as I know there's.

There's nothing like that.

Yeah. Like even if we don't even think about it, even if it starts with, I don't know, once a month there's a pop up event that's free to come to and just guys and girls, like young entrepreneurs come to and just get like free advice. I can network and I don't know, whatever it's like it's paid for by the charity, that sort of thing. I don't know. I don't know what it could be specifically, but that's probably like a cause I care about beyond just making the money. But again, you need the money and to build a business to facilitate that. Which is the thing that I think a lot of people lose sight of. Like, you don't want to be the starving artist. Which is why it's kind of funny because I've had, like debates with people. Like, I'm not a socialist at all, but I completely emphasize with. And so I'm definitely a capitalist. And I'm not saying I'm a Tory or anything, but what this gun. A bit of a tangent, but, like, I find it funny when you get people that went how clearly have a very privileged upbringing. I call them champagne socialists. They've never worked, they've never had, you know what, maybe they've got some grad job that their dad slinged them.

You know, they love to empathize, they.

Love to hate on entrepreneurs that are trying to make money and build something and so you need to pay more taxes. But then they go back to their 4 million pound house and sorry, having never paid tax themselves in their life, having never created anything. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I'm kind of taking the piss out of those people because they know me. But I believe, like, capitalism and like, people like Elon Musk, like, that's why I don't think you should necessarily tax entrepreneurs and wealthy people way more. I mean, it's a way bigger debate. But, you know, those people are probably doing better, having a better impact than the government ever could anyway. Like, for example, one thing I don't get, and I don't know if I could ever do anything about it, is I walk through London, why is the homeless people. But genuinely, why do homeless people exist? Why can they not go somewhere? How can we have a state where the NHS is free?

Yeah.

Which is an amazing thing. Like, Go to America. It's a show.

Yeah.

Yet, I mean, I don't know the economics behind it, but it just strikes me as like, how is that thing. Yeah.

Any stuff.

Like the Grenfell Tower. They didn't like, facilitate any of the victims, but they did big Ben with £8 million.

Yeah.

I think stuff like that is very.

That's where, like, I'm a capitalist 100%. But that sort of pisses me off, I think, like, where are they spending this?

Very questionable.

Where are your priorities at the end of the day. That's why.

But then.

Yeah.

What's going on like behind the scenes.

Yeah.

I mean that's like whole conspiracy.

Yeah.

I'm pretty.

It's all corrupt, man.

Yeah.

100%. Yeah.

It's not going to get demonetized even.

Co. And I mean that's a whole of a story. But yeah, I just found it mad how like obviously like covert affects a lot of people but I think the mental health side of things had a negative effect on more people than Covid.

It was overlooked. It was overlooked.

Massively overlooked. Particularly for people that run like physical businesses like restaurants. I don't know how the they even got through that.

Yeah, yeah. I couldn't even begin to imagine.

But it's kind of weird because if you look at some forward thinking countries, like the Scandinavian countries that they have literally. No, I think it's more to do with the law system than anything. Like they, they actually try and help people rather than penalizing people for true addictions. That. That's kind of the main vicious cycle with people that end up on the streets usually.

Yeah.

It's usually either debt or drugs or the mixture of both. Yeah. You should cause that kind of cycle.

Yeah.

It gets that bad where homeless people actually commit crimes just to get around in prison and get that food every day and stuff like that.

Yeah. I don't know if we can fix that. But yeah, I guess I'd like to have try and think I could have some impact. Yeah. Yeah. Like socially as well.

Even if you help like 100 people like during your lifetime, at least you've actually helped. Yeah. That impacted it like positively and actually changed their life. That's a kind of outlook that I would kind of think it's a good.

Route like purpose wise. Yeah. I mean 100.

Yeah. Yes. I suppose like I was thinking about this as well. Like because speaking to Iman like he's so Iman Gadzy. People that don't know he's on my pod. Like he's incredibly like he's like a 40 year old man. He's 21. It's mad but like he has like a clear life mission and, and I started thinking about like what's my life mission? Like, geez, I don't know. I don't know exactly. But probably like when I think about like the business I'm trying to build like the podcast, maybe I'd do a charity thing. I don't know. Maybe having some sort of broader impact on like the mental health support of like creatives and entrepreneurs. Because that's what I feel like I am. And that's.

Yeah.

Where I feel like I've struggled the most.

Yeah. And you're not alone. Like there's so many people that have that, you know, I mean they probably.

Haven'T even spoken about it.

100.

Yeah. That's why I'm so honest about it on, on the pod. On this pod.

So I respect that because it shows people the reality that not everything is rosy when it comes to businesses.

Instagram is very detrimental right now. People just. It's literally just a highlight real, isn't it?

Like mine's also highlight real. But yeah, I guess Twitter is a bit more like trying to share and like obviously like YouTube videos what's on.

Your mind, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Because on YouTube they can actually see what you are for you, you know what I mean? Whereas yeah, obviously on Instagram it's just like a few photos. Your life probably looks amazing.

Let me stand by a roll, take a picture.

Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

Yeah, legit. Like I cried in my bedroom this week because I felt so. I don't cry that often to be fair. I don't know what it was.

So just being like overwhelmed with everything.

I think hangs out from the weekend, missing my ex girlfriend and then just. I don't know, it's probably just a build up of things. Probably like ptsd. Yeah, to an extent because I'd never done that before. Probably time. Yeah.

There must just be a lot of just stuff under the COVID that you probably don't even like you don't even acknowledge that. You know, I mean just obviously from.

Yeah, even I think lads are really bad at this. Like maybe girls as well. But I can only relate to guys. Like you'll speak to your mates but you won't really speak to them.

You won't let it all out.

You.

You still hold something. I'm. I'm bound.

I think that's just like human nature, particularly like male human nature.

As much as I try it's kind of like it.

It kind of has a innate feeling that you feel weaker and less alpha.

Yeah, yeah. Twitter thing, the whole alpha male.

That's what I was about to say. Is that the reason why? Is it just because the culture.

Yeah, it's been definitely present to us, to be honest.

Yeah. I just think, I think you know, you're getting older and a bit more self aware when regardless of what stereotypes are thrown around on social media, you still know it's not you. So I had that realization with like the Whole like, alpha and like, money Twitter G thing. It just isn't me. Like, no, I don't want to call girls like hoes and it's just not me. Like. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, like, not every girl I've ever spoke to I've fallen in love with. But yeah, it's just. I don't know, I think it comes from like, rap culture and shit as well.

Oh, yeah, that plays a massive role. 100.

I don't know if you, like, listen to rap whilst you're working or do you try and.

Yeah, I'm very eclectic. Music tastes like, honestly, like, my favorite band is the 1975 because I've always just been obsessed with them from a musical perspective. A lot of people would say that's like gay and shit. Whatever. Like, that's their opinion. I just think Matty Healy is just a creative genius. Their aesthetic inspired a lot of the neon stuff I've done. I'd love to get him on the podcast. Like, and I love like Drake and shit as well. But I like. I like a broad range of stuff. I literally listen to classical music. I listen to fucking death metal in the gym.

Yeah, same.

Because I'm such a musical person. Like. Yeah. And then like, like lo fi beats. I love listening to and working and. Yeah, but I like music makes me feel something. I mean, like, I kind of like getting in my fields about like a time gone by.

Nah, it's a kind of way to cope with things. Or like, again, like how the podcast you can, you know, speak about when you listen to music and you can relate. It's like so therapeutic.

Honestly. One of the most like, beautiful life experiences I. I think I've had. It's just like I used to do all the time. Just like a late night drive through like London in a fast car with very loud music. Just by yourself.

Yeah.

Or with someone else, but probably by myself. Just playing like somebody else by the 1975 minus is going on walking down.

The beach, earphones in and preferably evening and just, just walk and just think. Let it all out in your brain and then. Yeah, I think that's really therapeutic on my part anyway.

Yeah. Because like, I just associate certain songs so strongly with like, certain times. Yes. Yeah, I get that. Oh my God.

We reminiscent on just songs from. From just like back in the day. Just classics of like, like rap wise, you know.

Yeah.

And I. I could tell him where exactly I was when I was listening to that song 100. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Yeah.

So powerful.

So it's like another thing as well. I feel like people speak to my mate about this because he's also been going through like some romantic issues and. And I was like, oh, when I listen to like certain songs, that makes me sad about this girl and shit. But then it's like if I put like future on in the gym, I like, oh, I feel like a fucking G again.

Yeah, you feel like a boss straight after.

It's like there's a time and a place for that. But I think it's also good to like feel shit. I don't know.

Yeah, Good to let it out.

It's kind of. It's. It's quite a nice feeling, like being nostalgia about something. And like, I don't know, I always think like nostalgia is like a beautiful sadness.

Yeah, yeah.

So deep. But because, I don't know, it's one of those not even just like girls and shit, but like times gone by. Like, I think back to when I was like 22 in like Bali or whatever, and it seems like such a beautiful period.

You can never go back.

You don't realize it.

Yeah, you can never go back.

It's like a staple of it.

Look at the same with this. I look back when I'm 30 and like this time or whatever, podcast era. Yeah. And like you almost get an awareness that the time you're in now is gonna have this like retrospective movie filter. And it's going to be a beautiful.

So many things don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Like there's so many, like, little day to day things that are just. They're not actually that deep, you know, I mean, like, if you think about it, like, you just have to just enjoy the present. That's the most important thing, you know?

I mean, enjoy the moment.

That's it.

Yeah. I get so deep about that. I'll literally lie in bed at night and think like. Like time's going by.

Yeah, yeah. Always ticking.

Tick, tick.

It's almost scary, but it's like.

That's again, like, what's it called? Existentialism.

Yeah, it is like existential dread or something. I don't know if it's dread or just like awareness, like pure awareness. It's like the awareness of the fragility of time.

And you know the term nihilism.

Yeah, yeah.

Like when. I mean, literally when, like you think nothing actually matters. Like we're on this rock in this black abyss, just.

Right.

Just.

You can use that to your advantage.

You can't.

Yeah, yeah. I Guess nothing matters. But then it means that everything matters because.

Yeah, exactly.

Give it meaning. Like, it's almost like, what's the meaning of life?

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, it's all so that we may as well just try and try. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, the most beautiful things in life, I think, are just like, giving me. Giving meaning to things. I don't know. You. You give it your own meaning.

Did you learn anything more about, like, yourself or anything, like maybe these type of topics? Obviously, when you tested psychedelics.

Oh, geez. I mean, yeah, so I've dabbled. Not a huge. I'm not psychonaut by any means, but I think I said this in the imam part as well. My experience with psychedelics in legal countries is like. I described it and think it was such a good description, actually, in hindsight, and it was off the cuff and I was like, drinking alcohol or whatever. Drugs is like an up, then you get down and then you come back to base level. And this is base level. My perception of psychedelics, broadly speaking, is instead of going up or down, you go out and in, Right. And there is no come down or whatever. It's just out and then you're off. So if this is like this axis, you know, I mean, it goes out on the other axis.

It's like a different perspective.

That's a good way of putting it.

That's really how I'd describe it. And yeah, like, yeah, I don't think.

I could handle it, you know, I.

Mean, again, I'm not, like, I'm not a fucking expert in that because I. I listen to a lot of. About, like, ayahuasca and like, dnc, which I've never done, by the way. And that's like, really. That's like, God level. And they say, like, you leave your body. And I've never done that. I quite like to try it. Like, this guy called Dan Murray Serta runs a brand called Heights, which is a cool brand, kind of a competitor.

Great name, to be fair.

Yeah, it's semi competitive. It's a cool brand. And he speaks a lot about how he's done, like, ayahuasca. Like, I think he said, like, once a year for the past, like, 10 years. And he said it's an incredibly emotionally painful experience. But it's so therapeutic because it, like, brings up. This is what I kind of want to try. He said it, like, brings up, I don't know, like, child trauma and you can, like, heal. And do you think.

Do you think you'll Try it.

Probably at some point. I don't know.

I feel like you've got to be ready. Like I don't know.

How do you know when you're ready?

You hear horror stories about this but then you also hear like enlightenment stories.

Yeah, I've heard people like, people say that you just stay in that trip forever.

It's like a double edged.

Someone said that they were in it for like it felt like they've lived a lifetime.

Yeah.

What Mad, you know, you know what I mean?

Like it's like they stuck a whole lifetime worth of.

I think I just panic in that. Well, I can't really say much. I haven't done it.

So yeah, it's mad like that's.

I don't even know.

The whole brain is like a lot. I don't know. Like I'm not religious but I definitely think there's like there has to be something. There has to be something more than just.

Yeah.

Cuz there's like when you die, you release dmc, like.

Yeah.

So obviously everyone says, are they. I've had like a near death experience and their life flashes before the eyes. That's usually DMT releasing from your brain. Then people like come back and they say, yeah, I've seen Jesus. But usually it's probably something replayed in their past. Yeah, it's hard to like stay obviously.

Because find that so interesting.

Really interesting. And people have like, they've, they've signed up to have their body weight. Like they know they're about to die. They're like terminal and like there's a minute difference like when they pass away and that could be their soul. Something no one knows.

A change.

It's like the exact same Jesus like difference in weight. They've. They've done it across.

The soul weighs a certain amount we.

Have to think about because it's. Realistically, it's your, it's your ego trying to. Your ego saying it's weird because we don't know anything else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Outside as if it's widely known. The general thought it was accepted if that was just a widely known fact. But no one actually gets to that point where they can, you know, I mean, live to tell the tale. Or if they do, then, you know what I mean, it's like, yeah, there's.

Those conspiracy theorists, like oh yeah, I died and came back to life. Yeah, I saw this and that.

Yeah, whatever.

This is the thing that you'll just never know, you know what I mean? You'll never know until you know that's.

The beauty of life, though.

Yeah. That is the beauty of life. You don't know what's next.

Yeah, yeah. It's like when you think about what is outside the universe, you just can't. Your brain doesn't work.

Yeah. You can't compute. It's like, what the fuck is all this? Isn't it like colors or something?

How small everything is in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah.

Like this mic is absolutely tiny, but.

Then it's like a molecule that makes the mic is even smaller.

Yeah.

Like levels and it's identical to the.

Patterns of the universe. Worse.

Yeah.

Everything just gets smaller.

And also the how we percept, everything is built on radio waves, which are technically energy. So like, realistically, we can't see past certain spectrums or hear past certain spectrums. Like there's studies that are saying, like, if you cut a plant, it screams but we can't hear it.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan posted some about like plants that look like birds and it makes you think like. Yeah, it's all connected, man.

Yes.

Something mad is going on.

Like the Fibonacci sequence as well. Like the 61.8.

Yeah.

Like everything's like mathematical.

Yeah.

But then it's like, what came first? Like math or.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It makes me think I'm just living in a simulation.

Yeah, bro, I always, like, what's wrong.

With living in a simulation if that's all we know? Like, realistically.

Yeah, very true.

Like there's a high level chance that we're in a simulation. This gone off or what?

That one's fine.

But like, who cares? Yeah. Like make. Make the most of it. Yeah, that's. That's how you have to play the game. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It's weird. Like we're literally starting to go into simulation within a simulation with a metaverse.

Like, you're not involved in any of that stuff, are you? Crypto.

Well, not really. It's probably an area that for the first time I feel like, fuck. Like this shit's new. Like. Yeah, I think, I mean, yes. NFTs. And I think like 99 of it's a scam in terms of all these projects and so on, but I think it will become just another avenue to like, do business and. Yeah, exist. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Have you seen any integration with space goods?

Well, I mean, there's nothing I've specifically planned but like. Like in like common sense, I think, like, surely it'll get to the point where you can try the Flavor of something in the metaverse. Do you know what I mean? That's.

Pretty sure they have something where.

You can like the easier application is like clothes. Like you'll be able to try on a pair of something and it'll be accurate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's where I see like the metaverse. But I don't think I personally I don't think you can replace like human contact with meeting in the metaverse. I just don't like it's better than a zoom call. Maybe. But you get sore head from wearing the VR headset.

Exactly.

I feel like, yeah, like the Internet, like obviously the Internet is probably one of the other huge things which has happened in recent times, let's say where I guess it's sort of like changed the world, but the metaverse take it even a step further with like the goals it has to sort of like change reality. So world the Internet did not change, you know, I mean like that's probably the maddest thing is the Internet. But for the metaverse to change reality, that's never been done before. And I don't think stuff is possible.

NFTs are just going to be applicable applications are within the real world rather than just on the metaverse. Like in terms of just. It's pretty much just have like saying you have a receipt. Yeah, except it's just digital and it's a lot easier for proof of concept like, or proof of authenticity, all of that stuff. Like I'm pretty sure Stockx will probably implement something like that. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah.

There's already. There's already digital real estate in the metaverse, which is crazy.

I don't see the point in that, to be honest.

I think with a footage build one.

On Minecraft in it.

Yeah, exactly. My house in Minecraft's worth 14 million.

14 ETH.

Yeah, you still can't feel it. It's like it's. It's still not a real woman in that. But you got all these like you get all these insults again, all these girls in the metaverse.

I really want to speak to someone who's like fully invested in the idea of the metaverse. Like why.

Unless it becomes like human realistic maybe. How? I don't know. But then like look at.

Because then you're playing with science 20 years ago.

Yeah, that's true.

Look at the first iPhone. What 14 years ago.

I said this to you the other day, literally the first iPhone was 14.

Now you can make a cinematic film on a phone.

Yeah, I know.

Everybody think about the exponential.

Yes, but then your feelings, even when you're playing a video game, it's still you that you feel. It's not your character that feels. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I guess you still never out get out of. You know, I mean obviously you can get lost in the game. Yeah. But you can't like actually be in the game.

Yeah. So true.

Crazy. Because it's going to build its own ecosystems anyway and kind of be self sufficient in terms I think it's going to be really good in like the gaming industry. So obviously my dad's in the gaming industry so he knows quite well like it's very reliant on dopamine releases. But imagine instead of having to pay you like to get a certain thing, you can earn it with built in crypto. It's kind of a crazy idea like. Yeah, play to earn.

I feel weird even talking about this because I don't know a thing about it. Yeah. I mean I feel so unqualified to talk about this.

It's crazy.

Yeah, no, I feel like just in general I'm happy with obviously everything we touched on. I feel like we're at a good spot now and again. I really do appreciate you for coming on.

Thank you.

Again like this, this is podcast that. Yeah, no, I feel I'm just gassed to do this one, you know, I mean especially obviously I can ask you questions which I had E Commerce wise, everything wise about your journey. There's a lot that I've learned from you today. Yeah, no, I appreciate you coming on but yeah, anyway, his podcast will be in the description. Yeah, yeah, all of his links will be in the description. 100% check that out. But yeah, thanks guys for watching. Don't forget to leave a like comment. Subscribe, all of that.

Yeah, subscribe man.

Please, please, please. We'll see you next Saturday for next pod. Yeah, thank you.

Peace.