Being on Made in Chelsea & Launching a Beer Startup - Harvey Armstrong | Midnight Podcast Episode 48

There was a period between earning good money to the point where I couldn't pay my rent and I wasn't earning money. I was at the obviously the basic entry level of Main Chelsea. Not enough followers to earn anything on Instagram. So there's like a year and a bit where I was like, oh my God. I'm like. But I always had that in back of my mind that, you know, this is. Sometimes you need to take a backset to, you know, to go forward. I'm only getting to that point now. Three and a half. Three, about three years in where I'm like, I think my decision paid off.

Quick one, fellas. You probably heard a few months ago I dropped an E comm course. A very fucking guru of me. But it's not that. I promise you, 0 to 1 how to start a brand from scratch with no budget. Some budget, a bit of budget. Take your idea from a bedroom to reality to potentially 7, 8 figures in sales like I've done a few times based on my seven years of experience in the trenches and my current experience building my current brand space goods. It's no, no frills. We're had like 75 people go through so far. Not a single person has asked for a refund. Plenty of people have actually built some seriously impressive shit. Covers every aspect of the business, not just the front end stuff like Most gurus on YouTube and Twitter are talking about. Not just product market and all that shit, but the real shit, the logistics, the back end, the supply chain, the customer service, the finances as well. This covers the whole spectrum, every part, 12 hours of video. If you're interested in scaling a brand zero to one, actually turning our idea finally into reality, then click the link below, go check out Learn Real Commerce course and let me know what you think. I'll be glad to have you in there. Let's fucking go. Right then, we're back with the midnight pod episode 44 or something like that. We have the first, I guess reality TV star, beer entrepreneur on the pod, Harvey Armstrong. We are drinking prime time, which I guess in summary is a low calorie caffeine infused beer.

So yeah, both. So we've got two products. One is a low calorie lager, which you're drinking the classic.

Yeah.

And then we've got the world's first caffeine infused lager. Again, also low calorie, low carb, but just caffeine infused.

So yeah, because I'm not a beer drinker typically, because probably because of the carbs and shit to Be fair. When I'm trying to like, is that.

What it Is that what it is?

That's definitely. It has an impact. Whether that's just subconscious. I mean, wine's probably not much better. To be fair.

Calorific wise.

It's not. I usually go for carb wise.

It is. Yeah.

The minute. When I'm running and training a lot and trying to get shredded. I mean, I'm in shape.

Well, I've seen you're doing quite a bit of that at the moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hitting it hard. 100k a week running. It's crazy.

You're joking. No, that's mad.

Yeah.

Like, are you doing like 10k?

10.15K a day average? Yeah. Yeah. London Marathon. I'm going for sub 3. So I've never run a marathon.

Elite category.

Yeah. So apparently sub three is elite. I mean, yeah, I've done a 121 half marathon, so I should be able to do it 35 minute 10k. How much?

So what does that mean? You got to do each kilometer 4 16. That is insane. Because I got into running a little bit. I hate it over lockdown.

I used to.

Even at my peak I couldn't get anywhere near 416. And I'm fairly fair. Like, how long? Oh, 5k. Like nothing.

Oh really?

I couldn't even get near that.

So that I got down to like 17 minute 5k.

No, right, you're.

But yeah, I mean, anyone that watches the POD knows I was. I wasn't fat, but I was too stone heavier and was doing like 50 minute 10k. Like 4. Anyone that 5 months ago that scrolls.

A bit deeper into his Instagram would also know that because I. I had a little flicked a bit too far. I was like, oh, you used to be a bit chubby, mate.

I was actually thinking this because honestly, this is going on tangent already, but I put in my group chat the other day like a picture of me, but in fact it was bang on a year ago. It was the Euros. Yeah. And I was absolutely smashed. And I don't recognize myself because I was just like. And it was just like.

Did your phone stop you?

Yeah, I actually need to go back and archive all that. All that shit. So, yeah, certain people don't look at my profile. This don's just going through a good phase. Yeah. I guess that's a long way of saying that this, this beer is more to my liking. Because that's good to hear.

I mean, that's exactly why I developed it and started it. Exactly. For that fitness Focused, health conscious drinker that, you know, wants to enjoy a beer, wants to enjoy life, have a good time, but is conscious of unnecessary calories and weight.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

So going back to the start, my first question usually is, I guess, who the fuck are you? Would you do. But we've already kind of said that. But like, where did all this start? I noticed we have quite a lot in common in the sense that you went to Newcastle Uni.

Yeah.

You're one year older than me academically and you nearly sold your soul to the. The matrix, as I would say.

Yeah, I sold myself to devil for a little bit accounting. Yeah. So at Newcastle I did like a sort of collaborative sponsored course where I work basically part time for PWC and part time at uni. So it's called like the Flying Start course. Effectively it was a fast track to get in your ACA, so I did that. You know, you're 18 and you're, you're applying for UCAS and whatnot and I just wanted something. Yeah, I remember that.

I hadn't thought about that for years.

Remember when your GCSES meant something?

Yeah.

And I, at the time I was like, I want to do something that is progressive, that's going to earn me money. And this was a course where I could earn money at uni. I fast tracked myself through this qualification, which is tough to get and so I chose to do that. And then it's a four year course at Newcastle. So yeah, I did that. And then. So part of the parcel is that you then work for PwC once you finish, assuming you get a 2:1 or above. So then I did my like a year and a bit at PwC, got qualified and then I realized, as you say, like, this is a matrix. This is like, this is not where I want to be. Like, I'm working for the man. I'm just a cog in this like, system. I'm doing unvalued work. You know, your input is not your output. Yeah, your input is not your output. And it's just, it wasn't satisfying, it wasn't getting me out of bed in the morning and I was just like, I need to do something different, I need to do something for myself. And I've always had that underlying like motivation and drive. But it was just a case of like, I just, you know, I didn't know what it was. And then this kind of came to mind and then having that qualification with PwC and, you know, it does add credibility, it does give you like a sort of Stable base to one. Have the confidence to go and do like a business for your own. Because, yeah, I could have fallen back on that and I probably still can. I hope to God that I didn't have to. But, yeah, so I did definitely sell my soul to the devil for a bit. But it's got me to where I am now. So I do owe a lot to it for sure.

It's funny cause as I was saying before, I've never. Whether fortunately or just the way my path went. And I have a twin brother, as I've said many times on the pod, that's complete opposite to me and is like happier, non identical.

Yeah.

So we're very different. He's probably happier than I am, ironically. But it's just I never went down that path at all. So all almost like my entire worldview has always been from like, of course everyone runs their own business or whatever, because all my mates do.

But then temporarily, when going to uni went down that mental path.

Right.

I'm gonna go into.

But then I can't even remember what I thought. I think when I was there, I knew I would drop out before I even started, really.

So we just doing out of like, peer pressure of this is what it's meant to be done.

I started a few, like, online things while I was there and I eventually stopped going because I was making enough money to support myself. And then how long were you there? For like a year and a half. But I dropped out twice.

Yeah.

So when dropped out, went back.

So what course did you do?

I was doing business to begin with and then I did advertising and then switched to, I know, graphic design and then advertising.

So you went. You were like, right, I'm at uni now. I'm a fresher.

Yeah.

But actually I didn't really feel like.

So I dropped out after six weeks.

Yeah. What you.

Because I was just like this. I had like a culture shock.

Yeah.

I felt like the old one out. I always felt a bit like the old one out. Even in school I was like popular and. But I just didn't want to be there.

Where are you at school?

I'm from York, the north. How about you? Where are you from?

That's where our brewery's at in New York. I'm from. Well, I went to school in Dorset, Place called Sherburne.

I can't place the accent. Yeah, I thought you sound really posh. Don't really.

G', day, mate. I'm actually half Australian.

Oh.

So my dad's an Aussie. I grew up In Australia till I was 12 and then I moved to Spain. My mum's Spanish Gibraltarian, so I'm like sort of.

That's a pretty good mix.

Yeah, it's all right. Mix, yeah. Yeah. Chasing the sun.

Decent genetics in that.

So that. Yeah. But then when I was 13, I got sent to boarding school. So that's where the British accent comes from in. In England, because the sort of Spanish education system isn't that great, or at least my parents didn't think so. So they sent me to boarding school. So that's kind of where the British, like, accent comes from. So I was at Sherburne, like a school down in Dorset for five years and then went to Newcastle Uni and then lived in London and started my career here. So that's kind of. Yeah, very much British.

So were you working in the city then? PwC?

Yeah, yeah. Embankment was the office.

Yeah. Because I came and did a placement. When I first dropped out, it was kind of in the City, but also in Mayfair. In M and A, Mergers and acquisitions. I was just like, wearing a suit, faking it. I was 19, but taught me a lot. But then I was like, I don't want to work in the corporate world. So I went back to uni to do the creative stuff and then eventually dropped out. But. Yeah.

Ah, so you, what, you went. Newcastle Dropped out after six weeks because of cultural shock, which I get first year.

Just didn't want to be there. He always jumps on. Yeah.

And then you end up going to give the City a crack.

I mean. Yeah, my uncle fucking got me a place somewhere as one of them. Like. I can't say, like, I applied for like a placement. It was more just like, you can't be doing nothing. Come down here, pay 500 quid a month, live with me. Did that for like seven months.

What do you like? What didn't you like about M and A?

Well, I thought the exposed me to entrepreneurs and people making a lot of money, which I loved. First time I'd ever done that. But I decided then and there I never wear a suit unless I was choosing to wear a suit. And, like, going on the tube at fucking 7am is not. That's not the life, mate.

I was doing it recently because I've had a couple meetings, like, yeah. At the wrong times across London. Like peak hour at 9am or like back at 5 and I'm like. And it's hot now. I'm like, I can't live this life. I can't live this, like, nine to five thing. Imagine having to hop on this tube. No disrespect to people have to do that, but it's just, yeah. Fitting into this like structured nine, get back at five, six, whatever. And being in that like Rush movement.

Yeah.

Like people, I just can't do it.

So yeah, it wasn't for me. That's the thing I realized. But like, yeah, my original point when you're saying you started a business because like in my head that's what everyone does because that's what I'm so used to. But like you went into the working world first, for how long? Before you decided, I'm doing my own thing. And then what was that process?

So I did this four year course at uni which from the, from day one at 18 was with a view to go into corporate world. Like the whole, the whole kind of trajectory was you're gonna work for PwC once you finish your four years at uni.

Yeah.

So I kind of always went into it with like, right. I, I basically was like, right, what's the best way I can make money? And not that my whole like motivation is based on money, but it's like, right, finance, top end of employment.

Yeah.

Is finance. Right. And that say if I'm in banker, private equity, corporate finance, that's where I'm going to make top dollar within while working for the man. So I was, all right, I'm going to do that, that's what I'm going to do. And then once I got through it, through the process, like actually I looked at, you know, who employs PwC to their audit, who are these founders of companies? I was like, that's where the money's at. Not working for the man. It's being the man. So I was like, right, I know that, like, yeah, I could have had a stable like good career working in finance, you know, my paycheck, month to month pension, you know, topping up. I don't have a pension, but I'm probably not going to make it to 65 says Am I? But it was that, it was like, right, I know, I don't, that's not enough for me. That's not, that's not high risk or high reward enough. I need to do something for myself. If I fail, I fail. If I make it, I make it big. And that's what's going to excite me. That's what's going to get me up in the morning. And yeah, and I literally, I did. So I basically was gonna go on Love island at one point and I was an Accountant at the time. And I was doing it, and I sat down and I built a full financial model in that. So I looked at what the earnings potential is from Love island if you do well. So obviously a few assumptions.

Build a model around that. That's the ultimate irony.

Proper nerdy. Hammer glass on. All right, let's go. And I was like, right, so if you. If you, like, hit Love island, well, and you. You can. You can sort of ride the wave for like two, three years and you can make like a quarter million, half a million. Like, you know the guys who've just finished easily.

Yeah.

Davide and Atkinson, whatever they are, they'll earn a serious amount of money. And I was like, right, if I earn this amount of money, year one, two, three, and I reinvest it, and I took a certain savings amount, reinvested it, like a standard 7% return or whatever, and like an index fund, I was like, right, this is the return I can get. And then I was like, but if I stay within order, or I actually, I looked at corporate finance, I was like, this is where I want to be. And I earn 40 grand a year. 50, 60, 70, 80, 91, whatever. Up the corporate ladder to 40. I did up to 40 years old. And I. And Love Ireland, quick earnings in three years, Invested in the right way. Outplayed a corporate ladder. Invested in the right way. But I leagues. And I was just like, what the fuck am I doing? Like that. So like that. So dumb. And that was kind of the turning point. I was like, nah, this is like, there's more. There's more potential. There's more, like, opportunity out there. So.

So you didn't go on, Levant.

So I didn't in the end, only because. Because they didn't call me up. I was like, I was at the, like, the final stages, was just waiting for, like, a call for, like, a flight out there, which never happened, which is probably a good thing. Blessing in disguise. But I always did that with the view to promote primetime. So I'd already developed primetime, and I was at the early stages of it. So I was looking for, like, a vehicle that would accelerate that and, like, what could I do that gives me a social profile that allows me to then market the beer and just enhances its trajectory. So I didn't end up doing it. I then went, right, whatever. On to focus on this. And then that's kind of like how they're made in Chelsea. Yeah. Well, main chassis came around a lot before. But why I then said yes to.

Main Chelsea quick one Fellas, you probably heard a few months ago I dropped an E. Commerce. Very fucking guru of me. But it's not that. I promise you 0 to 1 how to start a brand from scratch with no budget. Some budget, a bit of budget. Take your idea from a bedroom to reality to potentially 7, 8 figures in sales like I've done a few times based on my seven years of experience in the trenches and my current experience building my current brand space goods is no bullshit, no frills with had like 75 people go through so far, not a single person has asked for a refund. Plenty of people have actually built some seriously impressive shit. Covers every aspect of the business, not just the front end stuff like Most gurus on YouTube and Twitter are talking about. Not just product market and all that shit, but the real shit, the logistics, the back end, the supply chain, the customer service, the finances as well. This covers the whole spectrum, every part, 12 hours of video. If you're interested in scaling a brand zero to one, actually turning our idea finally into reality, then click the link below, go check out learn real commerce course and let me know what you think. I'll be glad to have you in there. Let's fucking go. So going back to when you dropped out. Sorry, not dropped out, when you quit your job, was that like a hard stop and then you started that or like had you started playing around with the idea of doing this? So as I was overlapped.

Yeah, there's a slight overlap. So I a month or two before leaving PwC, I started the kind of foundations of primetime, the conception, the idea and started looking into like the feasibility. And then I was like, right, there's something here and then, but I wasn't sure. So I quit PwC. I went traveling for like four or five months. I went back to Australia where I grew up, sort of got sort of re engaged with like my old childhood mates. My half my family live out there. Like my dad's side got half brother there. So I went out, I sort of saw them kind of just switched off. I was in that kind of process, like figure out mate, what do I want to do in life? Is it entrepreneurism? Is it going back to sort of corporate life and getting a job in something a bit more kind of commercial, like facing. I knew it wasn't order, I was in order, which is like the deadest unvalued like area of corporate. So I was like actually if I was going to move, I was going into like corporate finance, investment banking, something that was like value add. But so I Went away and I was like, right, what can I do? You know, in that process? I was like, no, I want to, I want to do something for myself. So I came back and that's when I really hit the turbos on prime time. I was like, this is what I'm doing now. And then so I came back for like six, five, six months after and then I had that main Chelsea knocking on my door again and that's when I went, yeah, I'll do it because it will now add value to what I'm trying to do with prime time. So yeah, I kind of was like, right, I'll do that as a sort of means to an end, as a vehicle to kind of promote, you know, build a platform. One to actually get part time income that's going to keep my head above water because I need to pay my bills, I don't get money from my parents, I don't like to ask for it. I'm sure if I did it would be there, but it's not my sort of, not how I operate and. And yeah, and three, a job that allowed me to have a part time income but enough time to actually put to develop. Developing and building a business which as you know is not fucking easy.

How do you even start then? Because this. Was this the first thing you'd ever started yourself business wise or you had like little things before?

Yeah, so this. Yeah, so I went full cowboy in, in lockdown and tried to be a mask broker ppe, which I'm sure I don't know. Like so many people jumping on that.

I've heard stories about that. I had someone last night who fucking changed his entire business in Covid to sell hand sanitizer, mate.

There's so much money made in that, it's insane. It's insane. Obviously like the supply just what demand completely outweighs supply and there's just this gap for people to jump on. I was having talks with like the Mexican government, the NHS, as if I was like gonna sell them 40 million masks and be that like middleman. But the whole thing was just, it was just like this. Yeah, there's just too many people in the middle of this broking chain and it just like there was missed. There was like lack of trust. I got sent like fake passports. I got just all these people like trying to defraud the whole system and like jump in on a bit of like. Anyway it was all a bit much but off the back of that I was like what, what is like what are people looking for? And at the early stages of lockdown, like, people. Because that whole, like, thing wearing a mask was just so unknown to people. Everyone was quite conscious of putting this, like, horrible NHS blue thing. So I was like, there needs to be a fashionable mask, something that people don't really like, you know, that they can put in their face. So I, like, started a little company called Get Masked, which was like fashion mask. It was like nice polyurethane. I can't even remember now that wetsuit material, so they look better and you weren't so conscious about wearing them. And it did fucking well in the first couple months. Yeah. Like, well, nothing on the figures that you do, but for a little bloke in his lockdown flat, he's never done a business before. I was like, that's all right. Like, sold out in the first week, ordered again. Like, the margins were silly and it did well. But then like, three, four months in, it just flopped. What just started burning down because people started getting used to wearing masks. They didn't give a fuck what they were throwing anything on. And people also had, you know, a mask in their pocket, a mask in their drawer, a mask hanger. Then people got to the point where people just didn't need to buy masks. But it was a good experience and I did that in between primetime. But I had to put Prime Time on Park because it was locked down. It was the worst time to launch a bit. So I had it all ready to go and I was just like, lockdown? What, pubs aren't open. What? Yeah, I was like, I'm not going to launch online. The only thing that was going was E commerce. But you can't launch a beer brand online because people haven't tried it. They're not going to just buy something online.

Very true.

Yeah.

So how did you start it, though? Like, you literally sat down, decided you're going to start a beer brand. Like, most people wouldn't. First you wouldn't know where to start, but then probably wouldn't bother to figure out how to start. What was the process? Guess finding a manufacturer to some extent.

Yeah. Well, so, I mean, the idea, the birthing of it was the caffeine lager. That was the first set product. So we've got. So we've got the two. So, yeah, on the side we've got like 0102. So concept one, who've got concept two? So the, the, the beginning was the caffeine lager and this was like, I've.

Actually never ever seen that before.

It's the world's First. So no one's ever done caffeine lager. Well, that's actually, that's, that's the lie. This is the world's first caffeine infused low calorie lager. So it was done in America about 10 years ago. It was a huge, huge market and there was like a load of caffeine infused alcoholic products that were just like skyrocketing. And there was one product called Four Loko. Have you ever heard of it?

No.

Have you been? No. And it was basically, it's like really highly caffeinated, highly alcohol content cocktail mixer thing that was basically really cheap. It was like, I think it was like 14 and had like equivalent, like three, four coffees in it. Huh.

It's not going to spray everywhere. Give it technique.

Tap, tap, tap. No, it's not being shipped.

He probably does, to be fair at the top. Need to get out on camera.

Edit that out.

He only likes dog food. Yeah.

You poo a lot on the, on the balcony.

Yeah, no comment on that. I need to clean that up. Yeah.

I mean basically the conception of the idea was, was out in Ibiza and we were like on third, third night out on the trot and I was with my mates and they're fucking troopers, like they can go and go and go. And it got. Third night I was like, I can't do it lads. I'm not, I'm not coming outside. Just can't do it. And they were like, nah, come on, mate. I was like. And they slid me a coffee, slid me a beer.

Yeah.

And I like had the espresso, had the beer. And then I was like, oh, I feel alright, I can do this. I got this. And then. But my stomach, I was like, that's not a good mix. Like the creaminess of the coffee, the fizz I of the beer. I was like, this just doesn't sit well. But like physically I'm feeling I'm up for it. So that. Why is it not being combined? And then I looked more into it. I was like, well, you've got espresso martinis, you've got vodka red balls, Jager bombs, cafe patrol, you've got Buckfast. I never know that's big, big one in Scotland. But you've got all these products which caffeine and alcohol, but not being done in the most consumed form of alcohol in the world, being lager, like. So I was like, why is it not combined? So I started like looking into it from there and developing it and that was kind of like the beginnings of and it was, yeah, it was a case of like doing trial and errors with like breweries and doing like sort of small scale batches and trying to add in the caffeine. And we had like loads of like issues like the caffeine segmenting to the bottom, the beer going flat. What else do we run up against? All sorts of things. So a load of trial and errors. Then we got, we got like sort of guys in lab coats, like an R D house to fully like, you know, get their, get their mic microscopes out and figure out what the fuck's going on it.

Yeah.

And then we came to a solution that worked and then we sort of trialed that and it worked and it was great. So like it doesn't detract from the beer taste? Well actually it's a caffeine. We add a natural caffeine powder which in itself has a slight bitterness to it. So really it can actually add like quite a nice element to a beer. So yeah, so it's a nice like tasting lager, doesn't taste any different and gives you a little pick me up. And then off the back of that, we're about to launch this to market and I was like, there is a bit of kind of resistance around caffeine. Well, firstly, there are people that just don't drink caffeine, they're not coffee drinkers. So you're capping that market. So I didn't want to do that. And then there are people that are a bit like, oh, caffeine, alcohol. So I was like, let's launch assisted product number two. Just the standard lager that sort of really taps into consumer trends and needs, which is like kind of low calorie, like low carb, gluten free. So start developing that side. And then we just sort of merged the two so they're both low calorie, low carb, gluten free. And then one's just caffeine infused.

How much it costs to start a beer brand? That's the thing everyone wonders. I wonder that because I get that question in my DMs all the time. How much it costs to start on E Commerce. Yeah, work. Because like starting a consumable brand is definitely in my experience way more expensive than starting like a jewelry brand, which you can do for like 500 quid.

What to start? What, what does it cost? I guess the minimums are more.

Yeah, I reckon.

I mean you do want the beer now.

I reckon that that would cost at least like 30 grand to get one skew, like minimums off the.

Yeah. And what.

That's just a sku.

And then before like all the.

Yeah, I did that myself because I'm good at that.

But aid of graphics in you.

Yeah, so it's a lot more expensive than something else. But. But the barrier to entry is higher then. That's. That's a good thing.

It's that trade off. I mean, there's two sort of business models you can run in, in beer production. Either are a craft brewery, which is like a huge sort of industry. You know, Beavertown, Camden Hills. Like, guys, they have their own brewery and they. And, and they sort of work off that. But that obviously comes with a huge capital expenditure. You have to invest in a brewery. And I don't actually know the exact figures, but you're looking for sort of small brewery, like quarter million. Half a million.

Yeah.

But we work with a brewing partner. So a lot of these breweries across the UK have the facilities, but they have so much spare capacity. You know, they brew their own beer but they equally are working at 50%. So they contract brew. So they go, right, we can brew for you. And you basically pay them, obviously with a margin and you work in partnership with them. So that's the way that we work at the moment. And we have very like close relationship with the brewery in Yorkshire, who are like, you know, the top dogs in low calorie brewing. They like. We developed the formula and our recipes with. Well, we've completely developed the caffeine formula ourselves and then we develop the recipe for the low calorie beer with them and then we. We've got the IP over both the recipes and formulas and we just brew through them and that. Then obviously, you know, the startup costs are like flies.

Yeah, flies from the kitchen.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in this concert. Yeah, legit you are.

And everyone else watching.

Hey, guys. Yeah. So basically, to answer your question, what did it cost me?

Exposing everything.

Yeah, exposing everything. What have I turned.

I guess another question alongside that is, did you get investors involved or you like fully bootstrapping it was it just you. Have you got a co founder? So I've always helping you two co founders.

One is my mum's boyfriend, so we kind of started together. Yeah, he's from my mum. Lives out in Spain. He lives out in Spain. He's like always been in the alco industry.

Right.

Worked in sort of like distribution of alcohol for like 20, 30 years and kind of where the like idea sort of came to life with him because he had Experience. He knew, like, he's talked to you, how are we going to do it? And he kind of funded the initial stages of like developing the caffeine formula idea. And then I sort of took it over financially and I was like, right, I'm going to bring this to the uk. Once we'd like nailed this caffeine formula, like formula beer working, I was all right, you know, let's. Let's fucking like turn this into something. And then, yeah, I basically took it to London and then from there I put all the rest of the money in from sort of like conception, branding, like infrastructure building, the website, branding agencies to brand the products, the first production runs. All of that. That was all me. That was like my life savings, everything. Yeah, which is what you got to do, really, to like have that emotional and like physical attachment to business. So that. Yeah, yeah, you get into that mentality of you can't fail. I can't.

Because. Against the wall.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to an extent, I wanted to throw everything I had at it because I knew that would then put my. Yeah. Put my back in the corner and I had to fight my way out. So, yeah, so I. I basically funded it till very, very recently. We only just closed our seed round probably about a month and a bit ago. So, like, I like to think like a month and a bit ago is day one, because I bootstrapped the fuck out of it. Like, you can't. And you can't bootstrap a drinks business. Like.

No, I can imagine it takes so.

Much upfront capital to get going. You gotta be willing to lose millions before you start turning profit.

So.

Yeah.

So how did the business look in like, the first year? Like, how are you selling? Where did maiden Chelsea come into it? Because I know you mentioned that before and that's probably relevant to how you. I imagine. And then she got some traction. What's the story there? You get the first. First two products at the same time, or is it one and then the other? Yeah.

So we launched both at the same time. But yeah, I mean, main Chelsea, the part that has to play is.

As.

I was saying before I start prime time, the early stages. I don't even think we had the name by that point, but we knew there was something there. We knew what we wanted to do. We had the caffeine formula and we were like, right, let's do this. And I had mate and Chelsea knocking on my door for years before.

How does that even work for a start? Because I used to watch it when I was like, 15, 16. Then I just stopped watching it.

Yeah, sure, mate.

Yeah.

Now I still watch it. Yeah. How many times I get that? My missus watches it, mate.

Were you, like, big on Instagram prior to that or whatever you've scouted?

So I. When I. No, not even, like, when I left Newcastle, I was living with, like, three mates, three guy mates, one of which was, like, really good mates of a girl called Frankie Gaff, who was on the show at the time.

Yeah.

And he's like, a nice, like, good, attractive bloke. Anyway, they're always scouting for younger, like, people to come through the show. So they asked him. They're like, right, would you go on the show? Because he was obviously close to Frankie. And then through him, they. They were like, who, your housemates? They scattered out, me and the other two. And they basically asked me and him to come on the show and we went for the interviews. I was doing this PWC course that was like, I told you about. So I was like, yeah. As a business guy, I was like, right, I want to assess the opportunity. You know, I was curious as well, because I used to watch it.

Yeah.

And I was like, what do they get paid? What's the, like, structure? Like, can I juggle this with PwC? Can I make it work? So we both went for the interviews and sort of, you know, got the. Got the. Got the insights. And then always in the back of my head, I was like, it's not gonna work. I know. I've got to finish my aca. I've got another year and a half. They're not going to be corporate cogs. The Matrix kids aren't going to be chuffed about it.

Give me that word now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time I say I've just got all these, like, numbers.

Yeah. It's like Andy Tate.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also, like, dodging bullets at the same time. Yeah. And I was like, this is never gonna fly with these guys. To the point where I did run it past the partners at one point. I was like, can I juggle the two? Can I work for you guys? And can I also, like, out of hours, go and film for pw, for main Chelsea? And they were like. They assessed it and they were like, no, because out of how much time.

Like, does that even require? Not because I would wonder that. I do wonder that about programs like that.

Again, so many variables. Like, it really depends how much you're filming. Like, if you're. If you're, like, main kind of story, like, you're really involved in the drama that you're filming quite a lot. Like maybe like 20 hours a week.

Oh.

But if you're like, kind of like on the back sort of like storyline, you're like every week when all of blocks. When. Yeah, blocks. Like when the season's on. So we normally, like, film like two, three seasons a year, and that might be sort of three months per season. So you might have, like, two months off. Oh, this year we've had a really intense filming schedule. We've filmed from January till now, pretty much with a couple weeks in between.

And when Was this? Like 2020?

This was 2019. November, just before. When do we go into lockdown? 2020.

March 2020, was it?

Oh, my fuck. It was like, about six months before that. I started out in Buenos Aires, so I started on away season. So I flew out and again in the process of saying no, because even when they were asking me again at that point, I was like. It was such a scary thing for me because I was like, today, I just don't know about that world. So I said no. And then they doubled my pay and I said no again.

And then how much do they pay roughly? Can you say this? This is. That's gonna get. People want to know this.

No.

Is it more than. All right, another way to phrase it. Is it more than you thought it would be or is it less before you went on the show? It is. Because I wonder the same shit about Love Island.

You'd be underwhelmed by 100. It's not by any means livable.

But is it enough to replace a job? Like.

No, I wouldn't say so. No. No, not like, unless you were, like, filming, like, you would. As I was saying, like the a.

Like, and it varies depending on how big of a character.

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Because you get paid. That's a day rate. So you film once in the day, you get paid. If you don't film that whole app, you don't get paid anything. So it's like zero contra hours. So, like, you could get. If you're not involved.

Yeah.

You can suddenly fade into the darkness and you've. Your money would follow. You get nothing. If you're like, front end and you're filming all the time, it's all right. But it's not even at the, like, best case scenario, it's not great. So, like, what? You know, it's. It's a. It's a sort of combination between that and then what sort of comes from Instagram and what comes from that side of, like, yeah, your. Your revenue stream and that's kind of at the early stages. There's none of that either because you're new, you don't have a following. Like, it takes a certain following base to. Before anyone's knocking on a door to give you money for, like a brand deal. So there was a period between earning good money with PwC and a decent age. I qualified at like 22.

Yeah.

Yeah. Which is like. And then a big back step to doing that, like to the point where I couldn't pay my rent and I wasn't earning money. I was at the. Obviously the basic entry level of Main Chelsea. Not enough followers doing anything on Instagram. So there's like a year and a bit where I was like, oh, my God. I'm like. But I always had that in back of my mind that, you know, this is. Sometimes you need to set that back step to, you know, to go forward. So. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I don't want to cut my chickens before they hatch, but I'm only getting to that point now. Three and a half. Three. About three years in, where I'm like, I think my decision paid off, but I'm not sure yet. Not sure.

Yeah.

But it's getting there. I'm like, right. I think. Yeah.

So how did. Going back to the business for a second, because there's such gossip from Main Chelsea. I'd love to hear. Oh, my God. I've also noticed you have a tattoo of your logo.

Oh, yeah. Committed.

When did you get that? I thought about doing this. Yeah. Business.

Right.

Because my problem in the past is I've jumped between things. I was like, very like, oh, let's.

Actually think about it. Had you got neon beach tattoos, that.

Would be a bad idea.

Exactly. But I've got what I'm going to do. God forbid, if it does fail, I'm just going to get a nice little red X and then we start again here. And soon I'm going to have a sleeve of failed businesses. I think for me, it is that. And you know what the other theory behind it is that. Oh, God. I think, I mean, is that you can't, you can't. You can't wear anything branded on Main Chelsea because of like, oh, shit. Off camera. So I talk a lot like this and I keep my hand up and I was like, how can I get the logo into the camera?

That's hustle.

Yeah. I'll go, I'll do this. Yeah, I write that and I'll kind of like, itch my Beard and, like, talk.

They can't blow out or anything.

Do you know what? The other thing, I don't watch the show back, so I had. I haven't actually looked at whether it's worked because I haven't watched it since I started, which was on Buenos Aires, which is like two and a bit years ago, because I just. I hate the look of myself and the sound of my voice.

I've got over the sound of my voice through the pod, but I can relate to the looking at myself.

Paul, my housemate, obviously watches it a lot. And I was like. I said to him before I left today, I was like, mate, this is going to be the most monotone interview that's ever existed. Because I'm so monotone. I'm known as monotone half. And you're like. You've got a real, like, calm, like, monotone voice. I was like, yeah, yeah.

Is that bad thing?

No, it's not. Well, I mean, I've got the same. I was like, it's gonna be a real nice calm. No, it's not a bad thing at all, but it is, like, in it.

Nice chill. So, yeah. How did. Where was this when you went on the show and you quit? You quit PwC? Like, how much of your focus was on the business? And he said you went in with, like, a plan to obviously build your following, which then builds the brand. Did that work? And what was the strategy in terms of actually growing the business? Because Obviously, I know D2C. I don't know. Obviously you do DTC as well, I think mainly, like, how did that go?

So the strategy was always get on the show, use the show as a mechanism, as a platform to accelerate the growth of primetime and develop a platform where I could promote it. But, like, the first stage of that process was I need to make enough money from the show and from Instagram before I can really focus properly on prime time. Because I need to keep my head above water. I need to pay my rent, I need to pay my bills.

Yeah.

So the first year and a half of that process, I wasn't. So I was very much 90% prime Instagram main Chelsea. Like, what do I need to do in this ballpark to make sure that I can get to that point where I have enough of an income? And that took a while. Because you need to grow your following. You need to make sure that you stay relevant and stay on the show and you make enough of it, like, you know, an imprint that you don't like. It's cutthroat. Like, if you're not bringing good tv, you're off.

How does that even work? Just cutting back to that for a second while. I remember because, like, are they, the producers, making what happened? Are they making, like, the story? Or is it, like, I've always wondered this, or is it genuine or is it both?

It's all very real. It's all very real. Yeah.

Like, do they just spark up, like, situations that might. Certain things might happen in.

Yeah.

Like you're in a certain bar, say, filming, like, who's. I assume they're telling you to go there.

Yeah. Yeah. So then.

But it's real around what happened.

Yeah, they'll tell you together because there's a reason that you've got. That you should be there. Right. So it's like they will. It was. The best way to describe it is kind of like enhanced reality. It's like, yeah, there are conversations. There are, like, dramas that you would probably avoid in reality, but they'll go like, no, you're gonna. You're gonna meet here and you're gonna talk about it. I'm gonna. Yeah, we're gonna, you know, dive into it. And you kind of don't have a choice because, yeah, that's what you signed up for.

Yeah.

So that's kind of what it is. But there's by no means scripted. Like, everything's like, the core of everything is real. Like, real drama, real emotions, real relationships. Like. But. Yeah, but there's, you know, there's times where, yeah, you just avoid certain things, but you can't. Like, you know, you'd live your. You know, me and. Me and my ex, Emily, had, like, a really real relationship. Like, we moved in together, we lived together, and, like, you know, marriage, kids, that was all on the cards.

But how did you meet her, though?

Through the show. On the show.

So you both get cast as members.

So she was on it for, like, quite a few years before me and I just. Again, through the show. But you could call it the show. You could also call it just like, London social scene. Like, yeah, kind of knew of her beforehand through, you know, mutuals and stuff. But, yeah, I just took a fancy to her. I thought she was like this amazing, funny, like, girl. And I was like, it was actually so weird. I'd never met her properly, and I was like, just from her Instagrams, I was like, that girl, I'd know that I'm gonna click with her. That's like, I've got this intuition that she's the one. And I, like, went out my Way to. She was actually, like, best mates with my ex, Sophie. XX Sophie. And I was like, you know, I want to explore this. So I did. And like, it just turned into, like.

Well, they're best mates when you got together.

Yeah, they would. They were.

They were house that work.

They were housemates. They lived next door to each other. Yeah.

And she thought that was all right.

Welsh Sophie was with Jamie at the time, so we were exes, but she'd moved on and it was kind of like, well, you, you know, you. I know it's your accent, but you have moved on. And there was something so, like, real there. That Emily, obviously, she wasn't just like, yeah, that's all right. Like, she was like, this isn't all right. But yeah, it is. Like, that's like, I can't fight it. Like, I do want to explore it. And then it definitely caused a issue. Like, huge, huge issue. Which, you know, wasn't great for any party involved. But, yeah, it was worth it. Like, we had an amazing two relationship. Yeah. But things change.

Yeah. I was with my ex for like 18 months. She's like the first proper girlfriend I'd ever had.

Yeah, because you were telling me, like, this is the reason you got fat.

Huh?

Is this the reason you got fat from the break?

Oh, geez. I shouldn't be saying this. I mean. Well, no, it wasn't from the breakup. It's probably from the relationship, like, in reality. I mean, I'm gonna get in there, by the way, on Twitter, because I said I would never speak about this again on the pod, but it's topical, so it's fine.

You still not over it?

I mean. No, I'm well over it now, to be fair.

That's what someone love someone else that.

Won'T reply to my text. She better not be watching this.

All you are, reply to his text, please.

Yeah, no, she's not on a feature on the POD yet. Group chat content. Yeah. Fucking hell. Relation. Girls are weird.

Girls are weird. I don't understand.

But also. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, you can think someone I probably thought I was going to marry to my exact. Yeah, like, at the start.

So what's your story with the.

I'll keep this short. I mean, it wasn't on tv, so it's less interesting, but it just. It was like two years ago. It was. A friend introduced me on a double date and there was just instant chemistry and it went way too quick. And then we moved in together during COVID Temporarily, but then it wasn't temporary. And Then I think that that was.

The straw very, very mirrored.

I ultimately think moving in together, like, literally, unless you're like, married and probably in your 30s, is a bad idea. I actually think it kills it because you lose that kind of honeymoon, sort of excited to see each other phase. Well, and like, previous to that, I would see her maybe, you know, other weekends. And that's like you excited to see each other. You're. Yeah.

But not only that, also, as you were saying, like pre. Just into lockdown, that honeymoon stages burn out.

Yeah.

Because there's nothing to do.

So.

So it makes it a very intense relationship.

Yeah. And then living together is just.

Man, I did the thing.

You see each other's true colors, maybe. And we just weren't aligned on worldviews and what I wanted to do in my life. And yeah, it was just kind of, in the end, it was relatively amicable.

So you did two years or 18 months?

Yeah, it was about 18 months. No less than that. Even 16 months.

When did you meet her? Just before first lockdown.

Like May 2020. But in lockdown.

To lockdown.

Yeah. I shouldn't be speaking about this because.

You broke the laws.

Yeah, yeah. Broke the laws, yeah.

For love. It's fine, Boris. You broke it for a house party.

We had a lot of flat parties in that flat during COVID and the.

One that was over there with the rooftop.

Oh, yeah, legendary place.

There's some mad ones going on ours with Connor. Connor was like pumping the house.

Fights everyone was using. Hand sanitizing. It was all right.

Yeah, yeah. Everyone had masks on. Get masked dot com.

No, it's good, but.

So you met her through that and then obviously, was it partly, like, right, we're in lockdown. Like, I've met a cool girl. We could say, like, cool girl. But in reality, maybe not. And you were like, right, well, actually, what am I going to do tomorrow?

I think it was like, it was amazing. If you just came. It was short term infatuation. That was kind of. I probably called it, like, love. Maybe it never. Maybe it wasn't.

But, like, circumstantial to the fact that you didn't have many options and you were in lockdown, do you reckon, like, comfortable?

You're like, I'm maybe bored for two months. Because at the time I definitely was really into her. Like, I'm rarely into girls. I've come up with this. Nah, I mean, like, I think every two years almost to the month, I get really into someone, like, properly. And then most 99% of girls, I've ever spoke to, been with, whatever. Don't really care. It's more just been like a fling. Whatever.

Yeah.

And then. Yeah. I don't know. It's weird. Like every cycle, like when I was like 16, 18, 20, 22.

It's probably the thought of.

It genuinely is the thought of I.

Want to be on my own. I'm really enjoying it. And then two years go past, you're like, fuck me, maybe I'm going to be on my own forever. No one actually wants to be with me. I better figure out who does.

I'm just romantic. I'm a very romantic character. Like, I like all that shit. Like fucking flowers and dinners and I rate that. If you actually like someone.

Yeah, yeah.

I have no problem saying that. Like, I think there's a big like, culture problem. I think right now, like the whole red pill society, like Andy Tate and shit, which you've obviously seen him. And like, people are like, oh, it's, you know, you got to be a G and all this shit.

But no, no, man, that's the way to be.

I have that side. But yeah, like, that's the sweet way.

Girls deserve that. Like, I struggle. I'm a bit emotionally robotic. I like to.

I'm with most people.

I've cuddled, really, but not. That's my love language is touch. Yours sounds like more like gestures and like givings.

I just write like, you know, like romantic music. Maybe it's just in my head like 1975 and shit, you know, like the neon lights. I write. I just love all that, the whole aesthetic.

Okay. Candles lit cover, rose petals.

I just have. Yeah, it's always just in my head, this movie scene moment in my head, really.

But you're just living a movie on you.

You trying to. Yeah, I really am. So, I mean, create your own reality. Exactly. That's like the whole premise of what I'm trying to do in my existence.

So I can love it.

I designed that like five years ago. I'm very into like 80s synthwave shit.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the whole vibe. What the fuck is this? Space Goods. Spacegoods.com Rainbow Dust version one. My newest entrepreneurial econ brand venture. I spent six months in the trenches building this shit from scratch. We launched six weeks ago. What's it all about? The next generation wellness brand with a long term vision to essentially consumerize the pending psychedelic consumer goods market. Which might sound absolutely ridiculous. We're not quite there yet. The market's massively illegal. But what is this? Rainbow dust version 1? Is an all in one mushroom and adaptogenic blend designed to unlock your supernatural self. Essentially experience a sharper focus, sustained energy, Zen like calm throughout the day. It's an all in one powder. Tastes like fucking hot chocolate. Tastes delicious, works great, looks great, feels amazing. Essentially the broader concept here was to legally imitate a psychedelic microdose and like I said, experience those symptoms. You can mix it with anything, brownies, bake brownies with it, mix it with your coffee, have it without coffee, replace your coffee, put it into a protein shake. It's super fucking versatile. It tastes great. It replaces the stack of supplements I was previously taking. But you need to try this shit. It would definitely change the way you work, get you into that deep workflow. I obviously think that myself. Plenty of thousand plus first customers think the exact same shit. It's not just a pretty packaging, it actually works really fucking well. Keto, vegan, all that good shit. Trust me, you need to try it for yourself. Let's scale this shit to the moon. Spacegoods.com get on your rainbow dust subscription and see how you fucking feel. Let's do it for the boys. Spacegoods.com. Yeah. So, beer break. Well, we normally have a wine break. It was beer break. I like how this looks with the light, by the way. That's why I keep fucking spinning it.

It's got a bit of a light.

It's like reflecting on it.

Yeah.

So it looks wavy, but yeah, I was just saying because they're local, I genuinely would be more likely to drink. I mean, but by the time I've had three, I'm probably having 10, but I'd be more likely to have less of an issue with it and switch to another drink. So, yeah, I definitely rate it.

Yeah, I mean, good shit. Like it's 63% less carbs, so you can basically have three pints for the price of one.

Yeah.

Like, serious difference if that's like your concern, like the carbs.

It's probably just in my head a little bit. But yeah, I always think, well, so.

If you're a red, like red wine drinker, calories per red wine is more than a beer.

I mean, that also puts me asleep, to be fair. It's like a red wine.

Yeah.

It's not like a night out drink. It's a good pod drink.

Yeah, it's definitely like a mellow, mellow yellow. Like, ready for bed.

Yeah, this is good.

That's what the caffeine lagers for. It's the same with beer. Like beer makes you sluggish Lethargic, drowsy. So that's why we put caffeine in it, because some people don't want that feeling. Yeah, yeah, Prime.

So I'll link it below and fucking either go invest in the business or fucking buy some.

Or both.

Yeah, do both. Good on people that watch this.

Yeah.

Where were we going? I was going into fucking romance and shit, which all my viewers are gonna hate because I said I would never speak about X person again. But I feel like it's the midnight pod. It's not the midnight pod without some chat about the mystical elements of women in life. So coming back to the business, then, I mean, you're saying, obviously you have to stay relevant and shit and we'll probably come back to, like, girls in a minute. But was there, like a. A tactic to stay relevant in terms of, like. And alongside that, did you, like, what was the approach in terms of. All right, so you get followers, etc. How are you actually promoting the brand? What was the approach in terms of. From like, a business perspective of growing it.

So day one, the reason for our entry to Main Chelsea with myself and Sam, who's my business partner, and I basically brought him on as a partner and onto the show because in the process of going on the show, I basically said no a couple times. And in them sweetening the deal, they were like, well, you can bring a mate out with you. Because they were going to just bring me out on my own to Buenos Aires, like this other side of the world, on my own to, like, go and be this, like, ex boyfriend, like, drama, like, instigated guy. And I was just like, I'm not doing that. Like, I've got this, like, financial career that I work so hard for. I've got that in the bank. Like, I'm not. It's going to take a lot for me to fucking leave that all behind and take this punt. So they sweetened the deal being like, all right, you can bring a mate with you. And at the time I was in prime time on my own and I was like, it's so hard to do. I mean, sounds. Well, it sounds. What, you do all your business on your own, Like.

Yeah, I've always been a solo founder. I've now got investors around me.

Yeah.

Because I didn't want to do it completely by myself. But yeah.

Yeah. Which is impressive. Hats off. And maybe it's easier with E Commerce, but like with the beer company, like, you're so on the ground, like, you gotta be in bars, activating, like, you got, like, such a Like front facing business. So it's like really hard to do on your own. I was like. And like all these like ideas and like to not have like that sounding board and someone to go like, oh, what do you think of the name Prime Time? What do you think of these designs?

What do you think?

Like I didn't have that for like a long period. So I was like, I really want a partner. I really want. And so Sam was like a really good mate of mine at the time and his dad was actually doing, he's like a really sort of like accomplished like branding agent was doing our branding at the time. So I was like, right, who can I bring on? Who's, you know, in that, who's flexible enough to jump on the back of a startup that is literally, you know, worth nothing and could be nothing and equally who I trust and want to work with. And it just all kind of like pieced together. I was like this, you know, this good mate of mine, his dad's doing the branding, I've got a slot to go on main Chelsea with someone. I want to get Sam on board. So that's when he basically joined the party and we both went out to Buenos Aires together and from there on it was like, what you guys doing in Buenos Aires? And the story was we're here on business meetings, meetings in breweries and like manufacturers out in.

So they like put the brand into the storyline. Like.

Yeah, like not by name or by like visual because we didn't even have that at the time. But I just like, I guess just by context of like who we were and what we were doing, it's just like we are two guys who are business partners trying to launch a bit and that's what we're there for. And then sort of, then we kind of join the, the crew that are out there. But we were initially there for, for business. So it all began with, you know, it all began with Prime Time at the forefront. That was always the mission.

Yeah.

So yeah, and then through the process and then you know, when we actually launched market, which was only like 10 months ago and there was actually no product in hand and we could, we could, you know, we could actually sell something. You know, then we, we use the show to do like a launch, to actually do like a visual like representation of what the product is. And like we did like a launch party at the early stages. Literally now I'm doing another little like sort of primetime focus event on the show like on Tuesday. So it's like those little things where you can just get your brand name out there. Like even just like people that know me or follow me, but they know that I'm doing something. They might not know the name or what it is, but they're like, they know that I'm. I've got this business. So just. It's a. It's just that like brand exposure, that awareness, which the show can be a really powerful platform to get.

Yeah, yeah. How did you get like first stockists and stuff? What was the process obviously different to D2C? Where really I'm just spending as much on ads as possible.

Yeah. I mean our first sale was D.C. so we like. So we start. We have our own website and you can buy on there. And that was obviously like the. The sort of first like. What do you call it? The first sort of like touch point.

Yeah.

To sell. It's the easiest one. So like once we launch and we made it public and whatnot, like the first sales from. From our website, but then that's always going to be like the sort of most minimal revenue stream within the business model. So then I was just approaching bars. That's where the volume's at on trade. So you've got like three, maybe four revenue streams. You've got direct to consumer, where your margin's the highest. But yeah, it's just not the way that beer is consumed or even alcoholic products because people buy them. Supermarkets, they buy them when they're out in the pub, the bar, the restaurant or they buy at a festival. People don't really go, I'm going to buy my beer online and in two days when I'm ready, like, it's like very impulsive. So that was like, we got to start there. We have to have that as a base. But I know it's never gonna be the big revenue generator. So then it was on trade was our main focus. Because without on trade presence, you can never really have off trade presence. Off trade is supermarkets, off licenses, but no supermarket is gonna take you on unless they know that you're a known.

Trade is where you drink it on the site.

Yeah, on trade is like bars, pubs, restaurants, clubs, like retail space. And that's what is like B2B. That's us selling to the bar and the bar, then selling to the consumer. And that's where really our focus is at the moment. So our first few listings were literally calling easy wins, calling upon your mates. Oh, you own a bar, you own a bar. Years ago. So we started there and yeah, it was an early success in that. Not like, fuck the numbers are mad, but just in that the early metrics for a beer is that people like it for a start. People then repeat, buy it. Hello mate, what are you doing?

You're falling off me.

People then repeat, buy it. And even if you get a few of those, that's like, that's enough to go, right, we've got something here. Yeah, that's proof of concept. And for me, going back to like your question a while ago, like in terms of my self funding, for me it was always, I want to self fund it until I can prove concept. Once I can prove concept, I have a lot more bargaining power. A lot more like equity leverage to be like, right, this isn't just a concept of my imagination. This thing is called prime time. It's in a pub and it sells.

Yeah.

And it might sell very low volumes, but it go, it does trickle over and people want it. And it's just a case of getting a bit of money behind me, getting into. Instead of one bar, 10 instead of one pint per bar, 10 pints per bar. Suddenly the multiples compound just builds and builds until you've got this like snowball effect. And to do that it takes a lot of upfront capital.

Yeah.

So we've just, as I was saying, just closed our sort of first seed round which has now allowed us to really turn on the turbine.

Was that from angels or like private equity?

That was from private investors, some guys who are in the alcohol trade but in whiskey. So they have like a really, really high growth whiskey company is doing amazingly well. So they kind of have synergies with us but they don't step on our toes. So in effect they're not by any means majority shareholders but we have merged to effect like we're working together, we're sort of synergizing their like head office staff with what we need. So they've sort of taken and financial investment and operational investment.

Yeah.

So yeah, so it'll be a good partnership. It's early stages but you know they have an in house marketing team and in house PR team, an in house design team, sales team. You know, I'm a two man, three man bandish, so to be able to outsource that to them. Brilliant. And then we're also employing our own staff at the moment. Got my first interview tomorrow. Probably shouldn't have too many of these.

Yeah.

I was actually, I was actually gonna, as part of the interview process, I was gonna get them to down the pint and if I was like, if you don't do it in under seven seconds, you're not hired.

Got a bit of company culture.

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. But, yeah, so there are investors and. Yeah, like we. I went to all sorts of private investors, family, friends, guys in the industry. Like, it got to the point, basically we had enough interest and enough yeses that it wasn't about the money, it was more about who can operationally add value. Yeah, we can get the money from anywhere, but we want someone who can then come on board and open doors and pull strings. So I got to that point and these guys are that guys. So.

Yeah, so it's having the personal brand presence from being on the show. How would that.

With the investment or just the business in general?

Well, with the investment. Or is that irrelevant to the sort of people that are investing? Do you know what I mean? Or did you meet those people because maybe they'd knew of you through the show, etc. Etc. Or is it not work like that?

No, well, we met them through again, this very small world that is London. And it was just like mutuals, crossovers. Yeah, they're based in southwest London. We go out in the same areas, you know, met the md, met the founder and we had conversations on nights out.

Yeah.

Literally, like always the best business deals over drinks.

I said this every time and it.

Was like, I love what you're doing. Love what you're doing. Wait, hang on. What you're doing is quite similar to what I'm doing. You've got money. I don't have money. Oh, let's fucking talk. Yeah, let's put. Let's put two and two together. That's kind of where it began. And yeah, literally over a drunken balcony chat.

Yeah.

And yeah, to everyone that says a night out. So fucking unproductive then.

Well, I coined this term a strategic send.

Mmm.

So I think I've mentioned it on the pod before, but, you know, basically putting yourself in positions where social walls are torn down by ascending, but with influential, powerful, you know, interesting people, whether that be investors, people at networking events, whatever you want to call it. But like. Yeah, yeah, if you. There's definitely times where getting on it is very effective in terms of a business and networking perspective. It's just. Yeah. I think that the whole stereotype around networking is what a lot of people get wrong. They're like completely faking who they are. They're putting on this act. Just be yourself and have something interesting to talk about. Yeah, I know your. Which helps. But yeah, I've always done quite well with that. Just sending with interesting People, everyone I know now or is invested in my business I've met either from ascend of some respects, whether it was four years ago originally or through the pod. But then, you know, just one thing leads to another. If you're a decent person with a.

Decent idea, I couldn't agree more.

People buy into it and usually it happens in scenarios where it's less like formal.

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a commonality that you're both there. You both love that side of things, that socializing side, whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

And that, like, there's definitely. You align in that way. And then when you start to open up about business and there's some synergy there, then you're like, well, let's fucking talk. Let's, you know, there's something here and there's. There's a lot of people that hide behind closed doors and that probably saw a very successful business, but I think they make a lot harder themselves. Like, the classic is not what you know, who you know, like.

So true.

There's so much power in having a network and that, that support and being able to, like, work through your network that, you know, a lot of people don't put enough value in. And I owe a lot of. I don't want to say success because prime time, it's early, early stages, but a lot of where we are now to that, to going out, to being personable, to getting to know people out, genuine interest. Because I love business. I love people. I love to really understand what they're doing, why they're doing it, who they are, where they came from, you know, what makes them who they are. But, you know, if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't be where I am. So, yeah, it's important.

Yeah, I think it's so true. That's also kind of why I started taking, like, what started doing the pod. It started as fun and then I was like, fuck, this is a really mad effective networking tool because you spend like 90 minutes fucking speaking to someone and because I do it all in person, I refuse to do it on Zoom.

Yeah.

Like, well, most pods are like, sorry.

Mate, is that your wi fi breaking?

Exactly. I've thought about doing it, but then I was just like, nah, I can't. I need to keep the principles and do it in person because.

What are you saying? Two of your investors were from the pod?

Yes. Alex and Jimmy, who both invested. You've both built mad successful and exited from big, big businesses. Yeah, I meant through the pod. I met one of them actually, originally.

You met them, you must before to bring them on to the pod, right?

Yeah, but, yes, but it's because I had the pod that they then said, Jimmy, I DM'd. And Jimmy was on my recent video. It was a video I called like my mentor or whatever. And yeah, we're like good mates now as well. But Yeah, I just DM'd him saying, do you want to come on the pod? And he said, I'll go for a coffee because I watched your first episode and I think it's interesting. And then that's where it started. But yeah, just like putting yourself out there and you know, for a start, have something interesting to say. I'll know what you're talking about. But yeah, just fucking be authentic and put yourself out there. Because I actually think in like as much as I try and stay off like social media half the time, I just think in 2022, like a personal brand, that's what I'm gonna call it. Like everyone has a personal brand. It's just your fucking reputation. But if you don't make your own and put your own content out there and your own perception of yourself that people are going to think something, Whether it's on LinkedIn, an email, do you know what I mean? So you may as well if you're.

Shying away from social media.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you've sometimes got to just suck up, like the fact that maybe it's not you. Like, like, for example, like, I, I was never an Instagram, like focused person. I'd never done a face to camera, like face thing in my life. But then when I started the show and I knew that to make money and get brand deals and to like engage on Instagram, I was like, I've got a fucking man the up here and learn how to talk to the camera and, and do it. I'm gonna do my first one. I was like, I was on the way to the gym, I must have had like10,000 followers. I probably was like, where the. My blue tick. Why isn't it.

Yeah, I'm still waiting for mine.

Yeah, I got mine the other day yesterday. How much? That took a while. Yeah, yeah, I thought you had that age ago. No, no, literally. No, there's something, I think the, the algorithm was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it took a lot of like going against my. Well, I guess classic going against your comfort zone. I was like, I'm not comfortable doing this, but I know it needs to be done to get Where I want to get to.

Yeah.

And, yeah, sometimes you've got to fucking have that sacrifice and not sell yourself in any way. But, like, you know, I guess adapt yourself is probably a better way to put it, isn't it?

Yeah. Did you notice a big. Was it like. I guess it wasn't overnight, but how quick did you go from being like, no one knew who the fuck you were to, like, having a profile on Instagram and shit?

I blew up.

And how focused to London is main Chelsea? Because obviously I watched it when I was in fucking York. I mean, it's obviously got a massive audience.

I basically start the show and just blew up. Like, it took. I started the show and three years later I got my blue tick. So I just went. Yeah, it was a fucking slow burner. Like, it. No, real slow burner. Like, you know, the first season, you. You know, you. You get 10,000 followers, whatever. Like, doesn't really mean much. There's no brand deals coming off. You're not a big enough profile to start to have, like, a management or like, anyone representing you. You might get a few, like, free products or whatever, and then it's just a slow burner. It took me about, like, a year and a bit. Took me. Yeah, A year and a half until I was like, right, like, I can start making, like, a livable income off this and then, as I said, three years to get a little ticky thingy, whatever that means. Yeah.

And do you think, like, do you like having a following? Would you like to get to, like, 2 million followers or do you not give a.

No.

Is your focus way more about.

My focus has always been fortune over fame.

Yeah.

And if I have to have partly fortune, partly fame to get to that fortune quicker, then I'll do it. But if I could be known, if I could be famous for being. What's the word for it? Fortune. If I could be famous for being rich, I. Elon Musk, who is a celebrity in his own right because of his wealth and his business, like, like aptitude. I would do that.

Yeah. It's interesting.

Not because of celebrity status or Z.

List, majority of influencers are not rich. I mean, there's obviously some that are. Yeah. But there's plenty that look like they are, that.

Yeah.

I know someone I know for a fact they're way less rich.

Yeah. Just Instagram. Just like, that's what Instagram does. It fronts your best life. It fronts. Is like a thing that isn't real.

But then I guess the thing that, like, Instagram fame and what like fame in general and like having the blue tick and stuff that gives you something that I guess money can't give you in ways which is like status and like perception.

Yeah.

Especially as like a young guy because I speak to my mates about this all the time and like, like someone we know is like paid to get a blue tick and I'm thinking, ah, fuck, is it worth it?

A lot of people do that.

I mean, maybe it is worth it. I probably wouldn't do it, but I.

Think maybe from a stance point it is. Yeah.

Certainly for like a brand page. But then.

But again, depends how much really. It's a trade off. But I know a lot of people pay quite a lot.

Yeah, it's like I would definitely. I'd rather be, you know, wealthy and obscure and unknown.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, 100% than the other way around. But even from just like a niche like E Com, like the world that I'm in, where, I mean, even if this pod got massive, it would still be relatively niche compared to like when.

When, when the pod gets massive.

Yeah, yeah, true. But it's like, yeah, I guess I want to be known and respected by the people that I care about, you know, like people in my industry and like founders that I look up to rather than just some kids in like India, maybe viral on Tick Tock, for example. Like, maybe all the followers are just like random kids.

Yeah, no, yeah, you're doing it, you're doing it for you.

So. Yeah. And it's also not like I don't genuinely don't care, like if I get how many followers I have or how many views I get on the pod or whatever. It's more about if it helps the process of trying to build a better platform or it helps, I don't know, helps me get in front of a certain fund with my business because. And that goes through my mind, of course it's pretty tactical. A lot of the content I put out, you know, I mean, so, yeah, it's. It's like I don't really care about being. Having views or whatever. But.

But if, if you initial goal, which.

It does, then I do care.

Exactly, exactly. So with the prize in mind, with the goal in mind, it's like, what sort of means to an end, what can I use? What tools can I use? What's at my disposal to get me to that goal quicker? That's what I use the show for. That's always been the focus. It's like, right, this is a vehicle, this is powerful. If you Use in the right way, it can accelerate your business. Like, you've got case studies. Like, hell, brain's gone. You've got case studies like my ex. Ex girlfriend's fiance. No, I'm joking. Jamie Lang. Right. Candy kittens. So like that's like that, mate. It's hard to tell. It's one of those things, like taking it.

I'm gonna have to cancel him coming on the pod now. And I'm joking. He's not booked, but I think Lucy was saying she's trying to get him on.

Really?

Or his co founder, Ed.

Yeah, Yeah, I think he's less well known.

Maybe like he's.

He's the guy who's fortunate over fat. He's actually the guy. What? I. I don't know the exact. But he's like the, you know, he's the brains behind these hustler. He's the sort of. And then Jamie's obviously this like celebrity guy, face of like. Yeah. Is known for the brand, but not necessarily the guy, like doing all the fucking graft to an extent, but he's doing his own graph because the value in his profile and platform is half the reason of his success. And maybe all the half is Ed. Yeah, but what I've tried to go out and do is be both halves. I want to be the guy who drives it and. And I do. I do everything from like procurement, like marketing, invoicing, finance, sales. And then I also have developed this platform which allowed me to have a bit. Nothing on Jamie or. But a bit of a social profile. And it helps, sure. But if I had the choice, it would be Fortune over fame 100. 100. But I've had to. But going back to that sort of sacrifice thing, I've had to go, right, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna put myself out there in the public eye if it gets me to where I want to get to quick.

Are there any downsides to that?

Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's.

Such as what?

Such as, you know, you're exposing your whole life to the world. I went through a horrible breakup where I, you know, I fucked up and I regret it every day. But, you know, I cheated on my girlfriend and I, you know, I had to firstly deal with that personally, which is hard enough as it is, and understand why I did that, you know, why I didn't do it in a better way. All this shit. But then equally, you know, let everyone else see it. You know, my mom, that for me it's not even. It's not even the randomness. It's not the like guys that will troll you sitting in their basement going, you're a fucking cunt. It's like my close people, my family, my friends being like, you know, having, having exposure to that and being able to see like the ins and outs of it. Like, it's a bit like then, you know, you do feel like on edge. You then have to go, like, go back to. Everyone loved my Emily. Like, everyone loved her. So she was so ingrained in my family. That's a point where I'm pretty sure they, they saw her as a daughter and me as a, as a like son in law. I think it switched around at one point and, and yeah, I'll go home. After all that happened, I was like a bit on edge. I was like, fuck, I've really upset everyone around me because I've fucked up and they know everything about it. Yeah. Otherwise it would have just been a conversation between me and them. Oh yeah, this thing happened.

You both on the show. Yeah. How does like, are you then put into like different scenes and shit?

Yeah.

I mean, because it's like a really weird blurred line between like reality and what kind of looks like a movie. Like, the production is obviously like very glossy and shit.

Yeah. Yeah, they're very good at that.

Yeah.

Now they're very. Yeah.

Does that just make everyday filming, like, really awkward?

Yeah, it's definitely awkwardness. Like. Yeah. I don't know, you're. You're put in front of people that you don't really want to be standing in front. You have to. And you have to have that conversation and you just kind of. I don't know, I've definitely developed a thick skin to it. At the beginning I was like, fuck, like, what is this about now? It's just like, it's business. It's day to day. You just do it. You get it done. You know what you're there to do. At any point, you can go, I'm out. I quit. I had my resignation like any other job. But you don't. Why? Because everyone has a purpose. Everyone has a reason to be there. Mine is prime time, mine is growing that. So I use that as a justification.

Are you pushed into another relationship then with anyone that's there?

They would like, like to encourage that. Yeah, they try and like, that's all they want.

That's facilitate that.

Yeah.

Bring in like new people.

Yeah. And keep that like the flame where.

They bring in people that they think you might like. Is it, is it that scientific yeah, no.

Yeah. There's not much, like, data analysis. They wouldn't have. Well, yeah, they wouldn't have done financial, but yeah, like, they'll bring on. Yeah, like, attractive people that hopefully you'll, like, date and build a romance with, and they'd like to follow that story. Like, they loved following, like, I met Emily on the show and from sort of start to finish, like, they saw everything. They saw the moment I met her. They saw the moment I asked her how I said to be my girlfriend. I saw the moment I moved in with her. They saw the moment I. I told her I loved her the first time I told her I loved her in reality and on tv. Was. Was on tv. Like, because I knew that's deep. Yeah. Like, and part of me knew that I'm on the show. I loved her through and through, but I also knew that I was there, I was doing a job. So I actually saved telling her I loved her full camera. And it was the same because she was on the show and she knew what it meant. But it was the first time I ever said I love you was on the show. Like, a serious moment. And I did it in front of three cameras staring me in the face and 20 other people behind the cameras going.

Yeah.

I mean, and then they saw the moving in and the talk about children and marriage and me freaking out and her wanting that and then me cheating on her and then the breakup, and that's all on camera. And I could. I could go. I could go and watch that back on YouTube and get. And go like, whoa. And if we got married and it went the distance equally, I could go back and watch. That was the moment we met.

Such a moment. That's a moment we televised. And it's real.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's crazy.

As much you could build a. Build a full, like, story on it.

That'S probably even more intense than, like, the night Love island, because obviously that's six weeks, whatever it is.

Yeah.

And it's like, whereas this is over two years.

Yeah. And it's following your, like, real life. It's not like a scientific experiment, like, throw you in a pin, a pen. Like, they're basically, like, throwing a pen. Their thrones, their phones are taken away. Like, they're, like, detached from reality. They know, like, they're kind of. It's different. Like, main Chelsea follows your day to day. It follows your ups, your downs, like your real life. And for, like, you know, some people have been on it for seven, eight, nine years, and they would have, like, literally, like, some of them, like Ollie and Gareth. Gareth's one of my business partners. Amazing guy. Ollie's his husband and he's been on it. He was. I'm pretty sure he was the first. He did the first.

Yeah, I know you mean. Yeah.

Of the whole thing. He was the first guy in the first scene. And he's still on it now. He's gone on and off. Gone on off, but he's still on it. And he's. It's been on around for 11 years. So he could literally look back 11 years ago and he'd look like a baby.

That is.

That was it. Yeah. And you could follow his life and he went between straight, gay, straight girlfriend, boyfriend, girlfriend, this, that, then marriage with Gareth. And, like, their marriage was televised on tv. The whole marriage. First time, like, in the National. National Art Museum. What's a National history Museum?

Yeah.

Beautiful. It was the most viewed episode ever on main charity by like, fourfold. By, like, millions. It was like four and a half, five million versus the normal one or two, whatever it is.

Yeah.

And it was the most beautiful thing. Like, you watch it and you'll shed a tear. And obviously it was, like, one of the biggest gay marriages ever, like, in the uk, and it was a big moment for, like, the LGBT community. So it's great. But they. They will have that forever. And their children will probably also log into the YouTube and that's still about. And go, oh, daddy.

You can definitely look back. It's like, I often wish I'd, like, vlogged certain parts of my life, even just privately. Like, in my early 20s, I did used to make, like, travel vlogs. But even just watching them is, like. It's mad. But this is obviously on another level, because high production, it's like a literal movie of certain significant parts of your life. That's crazy. How long do you think you'll do it? Is there a timeline?

For me, it's a. It's a balancing scale that I've got in my head. It's. It's prime time. It's main Chelsea. Main Chelsea Prime Time. It's kind of like going like this. As long as it kind of is serving its purpose. Prime time's growing and growing. I'd love to get to a point where I can. I can let it go and I can just focus on Prime Time and do that. But for now, it's very much like, a value to what I'm trying to do. I'd like to think, like, a year or two more maybe on it. Like, I do I. I don't unenjoy. I've got some really good mates on it. I've developed some life like long mates from it. I've equally gone through the ringer and probably got some enemies and like. Yeah, you know, it has its like, emotional like tolls, but I do owe a lot to it. So, yeah, I would. I don't know. We'll see. Again, going sort of comparative to the matrix in the corporate world, like there are worse jobs. Like you're sitting there, you're having a bit of like a banter, chat, maybe sometimes drama, like with your mates and you're, you know, you're getting paid to do it and you make a TV and it makes people happy and smile or whatever. Beats working an office, buying a laptop for eight hours. Like, I'd probably still be happier doing that on its own if I was not doing Prime Time then working for PwC.

Yeah. Do you have like a specific goal with Prime Time? Obviously you said you feel like it's kind of just the start now because you've raised. Raised this round.

Yeah, so my goal is a five to seven year exit. 250 mil is the exit value that I want to hit and that's sort of based off the investment day. So a month and a bit ago, that's what my business model spits out. Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, ambitious, but realistically ambitious.

How do you think the business has to look to get to that? Because I've actually got a mate who has a. He needs to come on the pod. Actually, he just invested in my brand. He has a. A gin Tonic. Sorry, not tonic, it's a mixer brand called Elixir and it's been doing it like they've just raised a few million in a new round and yeah, it's a cool business. L I X I R. Yeah, I haven't seen. I was speaking to him about like valuations and plans and it's interesting how.

Like, what does he say?

His multiples and stuff just. It's just very different to Econ. How I would look at like D to C and like. Yeah, it's just interesting because.

What is it? What like, what's his multiples? Revenue multiples?

It's like way higher revenue multiples than Ecom.

Yeah.

Which makes sense because, yeah, like barrier to entry is way higher for a start. Like, it's generally more consistent once you've got like deals with retailers, et cetera, et cetera.

It's that brand like loyalty that you develop as a drinks business.

Yeah. Because he was saying, like, Fever Tree would buy them. I don't know if I should even say this on the pod. He'd probably say on the pod, but that was like his plan.

And FEMA Tree would be the equivalent in his field to like, Heineken or. Yeah, they're like that. Each like. And imagine it's the same vcom. What is. From what you've told me, like, boohoo will buy you out. Or there's all. They're the big dog. Yeah.

Like, I see like a png or Holland and Barrett might buy my.

Yeah, exactly. There's the big dog. Players, conglomerates allow you to gain your success and then they'll just wipe you out when you're. When you've proven. Proven a bit. And then, you know, and then scale you and take you to the next level. And that's like. It's not a sellout for me. It's. It's like a business move. Like, I would love to stay involved. Like, it. Prime time for me is. Is everything. It's like me in a bottle. It's like, what I love doing. What? Loved it. But it wouldn't be like, ah, five years. That's my hands. Thank you. It'd be like, sell out, but let me stay in control. But sell out. Because they will scale you to levels that you've never seen before. They will bring your, like, cost down to, you know, quarters of what you're operating on. They'll open up your distribution network to the world. That's the kind of buyout that I want. Do you know what I mean?

So it's. Yeah, definitely.

And it's, I imagine, similar, like with Holland Barrett, though, to buy you out, suddenly you'd be across the whole.

Actually spoke to Holland about today, so, I mean, planting seeds.

But do you want me to sign into DMS with my blue Tick and.

Be like, oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I want to check out this Lix, I think, quick.

Yeah, no, it's cool that they're all over. All over, everywhere. But it's like. It's similar to yours in the respect that they sell online, but online is never going to be their main thing because people don't buy bottled drinks online. Like, you're saying.

No.

So, yeah, it's like, where are they.

At at the moment?

Like, in terms of, like, how far in.

Yeah. And like, how much funding have they got? And I was. Their valuation at.

Oh, geez. I probably shouldn't say, but, I mean, they're like. They're like four or five Years in, it's pretty established. Yeah. I got a team of like 20 people, I think.

Do they boom through lockdown if they're like e commerce based?

Dunno. To be fair. I need to get him on the pod. He's called Matt as well. I text him earlier today.

Have you ever done a three way pod?

A few, yeah. A few.

The first three was three people with another drinks guy. That'd be quite interesting.

Oh, was in like with different founders. Yeah. That's a good idea.

Aligning found like similar.

I've done it with like two guests from the same business in the same place. That's a good idea though. Yeah, that's a good idea. Do you think this is something I think about a lot and like with my mates I chat about all the time. Would you say off the bat you're more bothered about securing personal wealth or building a massive brand? And obviously the two. There is correlations, of course, but like, would you rather say, get prime time to a billion pound valuation but you own fucking 0.1% of it and you've not really made that much money, but you, like, partner, you sold your soul to the devil, so to speak, and scaled the fuck out of it and you built this iconic brand that was like, you say you in a bottle. Or would you rather hypothetically only ever reached 50 mil valuation, but you personally took 25 million out of it? Because they're very different things. And this is what one of my investors and mentors kind of told me. He's like, don't chase the big valuation, chase personal funds. It's like that Drake line. Yeah, yeah, don't show me valuation, show me personal funds.

Is that a line from him?

Yeah, it is, yeah. Because obviously, like you read about all these unicorns and shit, like fintech and like, you know, valuations of X, Y, Z business. But then it's like, how much does the founder own?

Yeah, yeah.

Have they actually liquidated any of their equity? Probably not. Or, you know, can they even do that? Who's going to buy them out now?

It's man's really like.

And he was like, well, why do you want a valuation? You want personal cash at the end of the day, which you can then invest and secure you and your family's future. But it's an interesting, really interesting question.

It's literally what I've been asking myself for the last few weeks, like since this first investment, because I'm already thinking of a second one and I'm like, right, where am I, where am I going with this where am I getting diluted to? Like, what do I want from it? Like, massively, like, relevant question. And I'm 100% on the, on the side of. I'll take 5% of something massive, something huge, something that everyone knows about, a household name that is like, that leaves a legacy that people. Because I want to spread this to the world because it values the world. Like, it's literally a solution to the current beer market. People are drinking beer, taking needless calories, needless carbs, and this beer is just as good tasting and just like eradicates that. So, like, why? Yeah, so I want to share that. I don't want to be this like guy with 100 that's made a little dent on London. I want to be a guy of 5% that's made a dent on the world.

Yeah.

And definitely that way. And I want to also like take on investment probably quick. Like I did a pretty like sizable first, like seed round. Like more so than I probably should have. Not should have, but like more so than the standard industry, like seed round. I took on 400,000 and gave away, you know, the equivalent equity where I could have probably taken on 100, proved what I could do with 100, then taken on 2, 300 and. But I was like, I want to hit the turbos. I wonder if I can get like, get going and get this thing off the ground properly. Because one, it is a world's first. So if we dawdle, like, people can come up against us. Like, I've already seen that Brewdog have like put a LinkedIn post a couple days ago again.

Brew Dog are killers, man. It's crazy business.

But they put on, they, they put a LinkedIn post going along the lines of, what are your thoughts of a functional, functional range? And it's. They've got like three like, like, I don't call it like prototype graphics. One's caffeine infused lager, one's protein lager and one's CBD lager. And I was, I looked, I looked at it and went, oh yeah.

Oh no, gotta move.

Yeah, yeah, gotta move.

Or they buy you out in two years time. It's fine. Yeah, but then you wouldn't maybe be where you want to be if they did that.

Yeah. So that's like definitely, definitely like a, a rock up my ass. And it does make me anxious. I'm like, oh, like, yeah. But then, then equally there is a space to allow people like myself to, to, to like have that growth. Like Jubel. Do you know Jubel Yeah, I've seen.

Them on LinkedIn actually.

Yeah, peach snaps, like peach beer basically. And they're, they're like full niche and they're doing amazing well. And you, you do wonder like, well, why did no one else jump on board? Why didn't Brewdog just take that market up? Why didn't I? But there's like that, there is value in, in the co founders and having that vision and no, like corporate cog matrix kid could just come from, come from like Heineken and like go, right, well, I'm gonna do this brand and like do this caffeine infused, low calorie Logan niche or like peach lager niche because they just wouldn't have the right vision, the right touch, the right like mark on it. So they allow businesses like myself and Jubilee to grow to a point where they go, all right, yeah, you're legit now let's talk, let's talk numbers. And that's when the sellout comes. Yeah, so that's kind of the vision and I hope. Brewdog ab, you're listening. Give me five years. All right. Just let me do my thing.

Yeah, exactly. You gotta plant those seeds. It is an interesting one because, yeah, another thing I think about on the back of that is like, yeah, I feel like a big exit is like the Champions League final for any entrepreneur and it's very doable, but it takes a lot of time, of course, and it's fucking hard to get there. But like, I often think, all right, assuming everything goes to plan, which won't go to plan, but it probably goes something similar version of that plan eventually, like, I'm absolutely certain I'll make it to where I want to be, you know, within the next five, whatever you want to be. Well, we'll get on to that. But, but, but then let's just say hypothetically, I build this brand, I sell it when I'm 30 and I'm filthy rich, but then what? There's still like 50 years of life, but I don't die young. So okay, granted, start a new brand or whatever, start a new something. But maybe, maybe like you're saying maybe I'm better off at that point. I don't know, say PNG have bought me out and I want to work on the next generation, like psychedelics and which is like a much longer term thing anyway and would probably take at least five years to even start doing that. And then maybe that would be like my, my purpose in life beyond that because like, yeah, like making money is great and I've made money and lost money and whatever. But I think once you get a little taste of like making some money and actually more importantly, speak to people that have made big, big money, like a bunch of my investors and they tell you that it's not all that, then it's like, where'd you get fulfillment from? Then like, what are you chasing? If it's not just the back, what is your.

Like, go after the bag. I. I have, I have a clear one, but I want, I want to hear yours.

What, beyond just financially?

Yeah. Yeah.

I think I've got.

I mean, I've got steps. Clear steps. After prime time.

Oh yeah. I mean, I can only. I feel like I can only think like five years ahead. I really can. So the plan in the next like five years is to build this brand, to get a massive exit from it, which I'm. I think I'm in the right space to do it with certainly the right people around me.

So this is like how much your capacities on this right now, Swiss kids, like, well, 100%.

Ultimately, like even doing the pod that I consider part of that really, because I guess it's not entirely, but I think building my profile as a founder and like meeting interesting people that you never. I don't know, you might know someone that can one day help me with an element of that. So that's another string to the bow of people I know. And that was a little rhyme. But yeah, like all I'm doing now is, is that and the pod. Like in the past my problem has been trying to do too many things at once. Like in 2020, I was running two econ brands at the same time, which is fucking terrible idea. But now it's like, all right, compound the lessons. And I've definitely learned a lot of hard, less hard lessons. Like now I've actually got people around me, particularly on like a finance side because that's where I up in the past. And it's like just get in the driving seat. But also then trying to enjoy the process, which, I mean, I think being an entrepreneur is lonely anyway, like, particularly.

Working from home, like e. Commerce wise. Yeah, yeah.

Because like a lot.

Yeah.

I can travel all the time or whatever and I do travel a lot.

So it's just like one man band.

No, it's not one man band. There's like six of us, but they're all freelancers, agencies. There's no one in an office.

Yeah.

But yeah, I don't know if there ever will be, but a bit of me, a bit of me Thinks as I've got a bit older, I would definitely like to have like a more consistent. I don't want to travel all the time and be that like Bali Nomad, which I used to be. Bits of that are so cool. But then you actually do it and it's like, all right, I want some consistency. I would love to have polished concrete floors, office in Fitzrovia, pink walls, a fucking massive neon signing, quite a matrix. Well, like that, but like my own fucking version of it.

Yeah, but you'll lead it.

And I have a studio in there to do the pod. 50 people maybe. I don't know. I don't know if I necessarily want to run a thousand person company. Hypothetically. Maybe like 20 to 50 is like a good number so you can know everyone. This is like my vision. But then I guess like the goal.

Beyond this product or with another one.

I think with this business, I think.

Do you think this could be the next big thing?

I think it's the next athletic greens.

Is it? I need to tell you why I haven't tried it yet.

Because my longer term vision for this and it's been very problematic in the first three months is to build a consumer psychedelics brand because I think psychedelics, magic mushrooms, all that psilocybin, there's always Netflix.

What can you liken it to? Like what PureSport doing with CBD?

Like that kind of Puresport's cool brand, I think. Yes. CBD in general is about 15 years ahead of where I see psychedelics going. Psychedelics are still illegal. Yeah, that's just black and white, particularly in the uk.

So this is my question and it's probably good for the podcast so listeners can understand. So psychedelics are legal and what is that? And what is that offering that?

Why is it a psychedelic? Right. Because it's illegal. My longer term vision was I'm absolutely passionate about that market. I would like to have an impact on mental health, something I've struggled with a lot my entire life. I think a lot of people do silently. And I've like, I've dabbled in psychedelics to kind of explore my own mind, but also like microdosing and shit. So there's that like longer term view, obviously because it's illegal. I wanted to build, I wanted to start building a brand that is essentially ready for a market that I think I'm pretty sure is pending.

Okay, so what does this do? That is.

Yes.

So the idea of not illegal, but.

This is all legal ingredients. The initial concept was, and I built the product for Me mainly to start with. It's a legal imitation of a psychedelic microdose. So it has similar feel, basically.

Synthetic version.

It's not a synthetic, synthetic version. It's just. It replicates the effect.

But why is it legal? Like, what is it that makes it legal?

That doesn't have psilocybin in it. Right. Which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms.

But then it mimics the same effect.

I guess it's kind of like you get these alcohol replacement brands that, like, put a bunch of stimulants in and like certain shit that kind of makes you feel like you're drinking alcohol, but. But you can still drive because of alcohol. You kind of think about that. But the problem with that angle was, was when I was pushing that messaging on the website, Instagram, et cetera. The entire business is paid ads to start with. So, you know, we run on Google, Instagram, TikTok primarily.

Yeah.

All the platforms banned me in the first month, so Instagram account got disabled.

I'm banned on all this.

Yeah. So I had to change all the messaging on the website to basically remove the entire kind of concept of the business and dilute it down to just like, oh, it's a coffee replacement. Because.

Does it give you a buzz? Yeah, grab some now.

It's great product. All the reviews are genuinely really good.

Put something into my bit.

I mean, you can.

How's it work?

It won't taste very good. It's chocolate.

Neighbors is prime time.

Be an interesting mix.

It's chalky.

So about to pivot. I mean, that's one of a bunch of new products I've got in the way. But that's the first one we launched with. So, yeah, I've had to pivot the whole kind of messaging broadly just to be a bit more vanilla, to play it safe. But then the whole brand aesthetically is very indicative of psychedelics. Exactly. So that's all very intentional, but okay, so. So in a nutshell, that's what it is.

So what feeling do I get when I. When I take some of this?

Focus, energy, calm is what I sound.

It really does give you that.

I mean, it's.

Think of it, coffee.

Or it's like a very strong coffee without the crash. That's kind of how. How I market.

How much do you have this every day? Yeah, once. Just take it once a day.

I have it twice a day. So I just like shit like that.

But this is the sort of shit I need in my life, mate.

Genuinely, it's very good. I spend like, I've got a better version in the works. Got a version 2 on the way which is. Got a bunch of other new ingredients. But yeah, it's cool. And because it's a powder actually works. Shit like gummies are never that effective because. And I've had to become like a nutritionist in this process or learn a lot about it at least.

Where are the like origins of its use? Like where do you get this, like.

Oh yeah.

How does this get into this packet? And you have the confidence to say that it does X, Y and Z tribe out there that wants to use this like strain of something.

Well, I mean I work with a lab to make it all in the uk. So it's all made in the uk. All these ingredients have been around for fucking thousands of years. Like the concept as well. More, more product specific was I was stacking a bunch of supplements similar to the stuff that's in there. Yeah. Stacking a bunch of stuff like tablets and so on. And I just wanted it all in one. Similar to how athletic greens do the once a day vitamins, blah, blah, blah. I wanted the simplicity. I wanted to taste good and look good. And it's the way I see it is like the fact that the packaging is so different is one thing, but just most brands are very, very bland and vanilla in this space.

There's a lot of similarities. You've got the gradient effect. Gradient effect. You're looking for like a purpose. Functional product. Functional product. We're doing a lot of the same stuff here.

Yeah. So it's cool.

I like it a lot. I like it a lot. I'm gonna definitely give it, give it a pun. Might even shout you out on Instagram.

Yeah. So it's good.

Yeah. These, I mean, Paul's got it at home and he raves about it.

Yeah, it's good. I mean, obviously the thing with any consumable products and particularly supplements is there's only so much you can do you.

Good for a bit.

Yeah, you can have that one.

Yeah.

I'm nearly done with this. We'll see.

I feel like you want your red wine, don't you?

Maybe have to pull it out. The thing with the consumer product is there's only so like strong and effective you can make it while being legal. So do you know what I mean? It's never going to be like. A lot of people got the wrong idea when I first launched it because of like the controversial marketing and which I've had to dial down. Like I said they were thinking they were gonna like trip when they Take it. And I'm like, no, no, it's not a psychedelic. You're missing the point. It's not. It's not meant to make you trip. It won't make you trip. There's nothing in it that can. But it's meant to imitate a micro dose of a psychedelic, which doesn't make you trip anyway.

But it's funny what that placebo effect can do for consumers. 100 people, if you, like, give them that thought. Like, say with the caffeine beer, people go, oh, what caffeine beer? Oh, it's gonna taste. Oh, they're going, I can taste the coffee in here. And you go, nothing to do with coffee. There's no coffee in there. But they've got. They've been like, pretty. No. So, like, that's what. Yeah, you have to be careful of. How are you doing with it? Are you, like. What are your, like, monthly revenues like?

Yeah, it's good. We've done like 300 grand the first three months now, so. Got like a thousand subscribers. And because that's the thing, when I. Before I started this, and I've done way bigger numbers of previous brands, means only three months in, it's growing very well. But it was less about the revenue numbers. I was very focused on how can we get subscribers, because that's where the value is.

Yeah.

It's almost like a SaaS business in that respect. Because obviously people can cancel, but if people, you know, you want people that subscribe and stay. Like, I'm subscribed to athletic greens, which is like 90 quid a month.

Yeah.

So the lifetime value in me as a customer, even just over a year, is like nearly a grand.

I know you're obviously three months in, but have you got, like a. A metric on how many of those subscribers stay? Like, how much of that can you.

Like, attribute to churn rates? Like 25 so far. It's too soon to say, really. So, like, more people are staying than are canceling, which means by default, if we keep growing, it'll keep going up.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. You've got reoccurring revenue, like stability.

Yeah.

Cash flow, like security, you know exactly what's going on.

It's much better for, like, building models and shit and, you know. But it's the sort of business that, if you want to grow quick, could require a lot of capital. Because if I know that someone stays for, on average six months, say at 40 quid a month, whatever that is, like 300 quid value. But then we then it's like we can spend 200 quid to get a customer, but we don't make the money for like five months, not at that stage yet. So I have enough data, but at that point you could really just throw money at the wall on terms of Instagram, because right now CPA is at 30 quid, so it's like basically profitable on first order. So yeah, this, this is my scale though.

This is what triggers me so much about the E commerce business model, is that it's almost like formulaic. You can get to a point where it's all right, it's my return on.

Ad spend is like an algorithm.

Once I've got it right, I can just pump it like a funnel and just pump it and you just like can churn out like, you. What's your like, return on ad spend? Is that the right metric to use?

Yeah, like blended roas is really what you look at. So like overall ad spend and overall rev. Overall revenue. I mean, right now it's like a little under 2, but because the product margin's 87%, that's good enough. Like break even's like 1.4. Fuck blended ROAS.

And what do you think you could get that to? Do you think you get that to like 3, 4?

I wouldn't want to if it was, if it was a three or four. We too small. I'd rather be, and this has always just been my mentality, I'd rather be at a million a month ASAP, at break even than 300 grand a month profitable.

Oh, what, you think if you get to 3, 4, you're just getting less?

I think if you're at 4 ROAs, it's inefficient. It's never going to be at 4 R US if you're scaling really, really quick.

Oh, really? Why?

Yeah, that's just my approach. But without that, can you not pump enough money into it to ad spend by default? Generally, the more you spend, the less effective it is. Pound for pound, it's just like fucking how CPMs rise. That's just how the ad platforms work, particularly in a new brand when you haven't got like mad returning customers, like mad brand awareness yet. So, yeah, it's obviously ecom compared to like retail or whatever. And I know pretty much nothing about that, but I'm trying to look at retail as well, just to diversify, ironically. But like E Comm is very much like on the day, like you spend the money, the customers are there today or at least on like a 30 day basis is like the biggest window I'd look at and like trailing performance. So, yeah, so when you start, it's throwing a lot of money at the wall. And that's where most people that are maybe starting brands entirely bootstrapped or have never done it before, or they're starting in 2022 where ad costs are fucking five times what they were when I started in 2015. It's like, if you don't have the money and knowledge and also like a fucking very well executed website brand product, it's almost fucking impossible to scale quick. But when you know what you're doing, like I kind of do now. Yeah, it makes it very, very viable to scale quickly.

From your first business with Neon Beach, Right?

Well, that wasn't my first thing. I done loads of shit before that.

First successful thing.

Should we say my jewelry brand was my first successful thing? Properly successful?

What gave you. My question was gonna be like, did you get to a point where through previous businesses, you earn enough to put aside to then sort of rid that psychology of fuck, I haven't got money to do this. If I don't, if this isn't a success, I'm fucked. Like, have you now from your previous businesses, gone into space, kids thinking, I've got a couple whatever in the bank, I know I can do this. I'll treat it as more of a, an exercise, a hobby than make or break.

I mean, to be fair, I thought about this a lot because I started making a lot of money when I was like 21. Basically like 22, maybe with. With the previous business, the jewelry one. So I had a clothing brand before that. I've done a lot of.

So which one made you the most.

Money out Net beach, but before went.

Wrong and then so do you. So I heard you. It went amazingly too. Too amazingly. Couldn't keep up with supply. Supply chain broke.

And then I got bought out. I got a distressed exit, basically.

And how did that look for you, that distress exit?

Yeah, it was decent, but it wasn't.

Did that give you enough to put in the bank? Let's have some.

Yeah. And I'd made. I've made money before that as well for like years. But I mean, I was definitely not the most financially successful when I was younger. I spent all my money on cars and travel and a lot of. Yeah, I don't regret any of it because I had some mad experiences.

Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

But yeah, I mean, fuck. Do you know what it is to answer that question? Like, I've never. I think since I was maybe 21. I'm not really worried about money. Not because I was like necessarily making so much that it never crossed my mind. It was more because I just started to have such a good network that if I was ever fucked, I would just ask my mate to invest in my business. I've just. And I was just so convinced in the compounding effect of just sticking with E Comm. I know so many people that.

I.

Met when I was younger on like, in like Bali, for example, met a lot of people out there when I was like traveling all the time that were like, they were into like drop shipping when Facebook ads are really cheap. So they made a bit of money at the time.

That's a classic Bali thing, isn't it?

Yeah. Went into NFTs and crypto and I never did that because I knew I wanted to build a brand. I dabbled with a load of different brands.

I wasted money in crypto, prove what.

I could do, like very much 0 to 1 in multiple different markets. But I never stuck with anything to get like that 10 million quid plus exit. I mean, I saw 20 fucking 26, so I'm not crying about it, but it takes years to get to that point. I mean, whereas now I feel like I've done a shitload of groundwork and it can be like bamboo from here because. Because yeah, I've had lots of wins, but also fucking big fuck ups, which I was very public about, which most people aren't. And like a up to that scale, by the way, when I was 24.

Can you tell me more about it?

You need to watch episode one.

Oh, I'd rather you just give me.

A quick, I mean in 30 seconds, synopsis. Yeah, I was running my jewelry business which was doing a few million in revenue anyway, profitable. I then launched this as like a side thing at the start of 2020. So just before lockdown. Perfect product, perfect timing in hindsight. Literally. Yeah. Instagram ads, like it went from zero to a million a month in like five months. I was like, what the is? Yeah. In revenue. Yeah. From zero. Yeah. And then what were your ad.

What ads were you putting?

I was spending like 600 grand a month on Instagram ads.

But what was your actual assets?

My ads were me in my bedroom, I reckon. My bedroom. No videos of me speaking. I reckon most. I reckon I was like the most famous person that no one knew who actually was in that year, arguably.

What are you saying? Do you want to.

Yeah, I just got this sign, blah, blah, blah, that was in loads of the Ads. So is that one.

That's so sick.

Yeah. I mean, it's a classic ecom case study. Long story short. Yeah, grew too quick. I then had a supplier basically go bankrupt. Couldn't fulfill 2 million quiz.

With all the supply paid up front.

2 million quids worth of orders disappeared. I then got savaged online. I had the Daily Mail at my door. That's how bad it was. Everyone's calling me a fraud. All this shit couldn't be further from the truth. And, yeah, I was like, fuck, this is a problem.

Wow.

So, yeah, anyway, long story short, go watch episode one.

I'm going to. I'm definitely going to. Just to hear the full story.

Genuine horror story.

And the exit was what, off the back of that, you. You ended up finding a buyer who's going to take you in a. Yeah.

Basically bailed out. One of those guys is now one of my best. Yeah. Yeah. All the money, you know, the vast majority of the money that was put into that deal went to customers.

Did they just basically pay your debts off and take.

And then. And then some? A little bit, yeah. But it was a little bit. It was the very best of a shit situation.

So you didn't cry.

It's the very best of a shit situation. But.

And are they still operating?

Still operating.

Are they doing right?

Don't really know, to be fair. I mean, they're not doing as well as I was. I think that's. But I can hold my head up high and say, I did the right thing in that situation. You know, I took the brunt of a supplier's error and took, you know, the. Probably nine months of severe mental damage it did to me.

Was it really, like, taxing?

Oh, it was. Worst period of my life by far. I was, like, suicidal. That's how bad it was. It was genuinely.

I can imagine. And like, you like to rely. I'm in a similar position like you, relying on a supplier. Like, we don't have our brewery. We'd rely on the supply.

Yeah.

Spikes. We have to. We put everything in them if, you know, if their demand. If they can't keep up with.

Yeah, there are some insurance. But, yeah, I didn't have any of that in place. Yeah.

I'm starting to get it in place because our demand's starting to go.

The business was way too big, given the lack of experience I had helping me with it. Like, it was insane.

Well, that speaks volumes in that. Whereas now I did something which is.

A lot of experienced people around me.

Experience that, like, it wasn't I wouldn't see it as a failure. It was, it was so successful that you weren't ready for it, which in itself.

And then it broke. Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know. No, no.

22, three year old I was 24.

Would be able to like deal. That growth is insane. 02.

Yeah.

It was like Drake once said, zero to 100 real quick. No, yeah, literally zero to one mil real quick.

Yeah. So the thing I've got good at over the years is I'm very good at 0 to 1. I reckon I could get any business to like a million quid within a few months from a bedroom online. I really do. In any market. Because you build the skill set.

Is there a formula that effectively.

I think there is to an extent.

What is that?

What I'm naturally best at is like brand, like I do all the branding, all the visuals myself. Like I don't take the pictures for the website and shit but like the concept, the name, you know, the angle, that's what I just naturally have always been good at. Since I was like 18, I started doing that shit.

So it's good. So it's good, it's good. Obviously branding, but then it's like an effective website user interface.

Yeah, I guess, yeah.

Good funnel, like, good.

I guess kind of three key things I think is like the concept and like what it is, I guess how you sell it, like the website, how you position the offer, the pricing and then how you get people to fucking buy it, which is ads. In layman's terms, they're the three moving parts.

Yeah.

Obviously there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes. The fucking admin, the finances, the logistics, blah, blah.

Yeah. But the actual margin, like where do you go and find a product that has the right margin to you even bother with? Like, where does that come from? Do you know what I mean? Like, do you pull it from China and put a nice like.

Yeah, I feel like everything starts. And everything starts in China.

Yeah.

Generally, I mean this stuff's all made in the uk, but.

Yeah, but there are certain products that you can just like have like ridiculous margins on. Like when I was doing the mask stuff, I could land a mask at 50p.

Yeah.

UK and sell it at seven quid.

Yeah. I mean I wouldn't touch anything with.

Like the margins of so small because.

Of canned as well in it.

Well across the board. It's just such a. It's just a really high volume, low margin business model.

Yeah. I mean everything has pros and cons because like people will Speak about, like, you know, for example, this has an 87 product margin, but it's kind of irrelevant because by default I'm expecting to spend 50% of revenue on ads as a minimum.

There you go.

So. So, yeah, in E Com, you need to have a big product margin just to even start.

It all balances out.

You have to spend on that.

It's all about net. Net profit, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, every business just, you know, the P L just looks different because, yeah, there's different. Different things to consider in the model.

And yeah, like with us up front, you know, sales are minimal. You're in minimal pubs and you throw a lot of money at it. You know, half million, million, two million. Suddenly you've gone from being in one pub selling one pint to being a thousand pubs selling a thousand pounds a week. So that compound. And then if you were to take your foot off the pedal off the marketing and just hold all your. All your capital, you. That. That ball would still roll. Yeah, not forever. Yeah, but you would definitely. It would definitely still roll. You have to keep being active and, and in this sort of like, consumer's eyes and creating awareness. But if you spent five years building a brand and everyone love prime time and, you know, like, the way that we drink, whatever your choice of wine is, or like, everyone's got, I drink Prony, I drink Heineken. You know, if they just suddenly went into the darkness and you never saw a Heineken advert again, you were still doing Heineken for the next few, four or five years until some other brand got in your ear and into your mind and made you.

That's why it differs.

So there is this, like, reoccurring revenue to an extent. You can't put a figure on it, but that there is this, like, underlying, like, ball that's going. And that's what we're starting to experience. Like, we are, you know, we're in one pub in the area and then. Because, like, there's 100 drinkers in that pub that love prime time. If you pop up in the pubs around, there's also 100 of those guys that drink there. 50 of them drink next door and next door. So you put your beer there, then they'll start drinking there and suddenly you're. You're just. Yeah, so it's. It's like a. It's quite an exciting business model, I think.

Yeah.

And the multiples are huge. Like, I mean, my 250 million exit plan is based on, you know, as I Say it's ambitious, Realistically ambitious. Like Camden Howes who sold to AB and Bev.

Yeah.

For 85 million after.

Yeah, I read about that.

Yeah. I think after four, four or five years. Four or five years and they didn't have a footprint much further than London. So they were selling well and they were really high volume, but they hadn't really gone further than London. Obviously Camden's where they, where they started, but you know, they're in. Don't know how many pubs, but same with Beavertown. Beavertown sold for 50 million to Heineken for a majority shareholding. So I think the valuation at the time was about 100 million. Again, five, six years. In meantime, another big, like craft brewery. 120 million. But these guys hadn't even got further than London. Like I see prime time within 5 years being UK wide, if not like European, if not global, because it doesn't have a restriction. It doesn't, it's not, it's not a craft beer. It's not like, oh, we're from Camden, we can only sell to camp. Like, our beer is, is a beer of purpose, a beer of function. So it's like, there's no reason it shouldn't be in the Alps in France because you want a caffeine beer. When you've had a long morning skiing, you have a cabin beer. I see so many people having a coffee and then a beer. So no capping bit. Yeah, you can like explode way quicker than them. So 250 million exit is doable for sure.

I like that. Yeah, no, it's fucking interesting. I love hearing about different models and shit because there's a lot of synergies, but then they're very different at the same time. And yeah, I think, I think all entrepreneurs ultimately probably fucking think similarly in some way to how they view the world.

And, like, it's definitely like a different state of mind. Like Paul, my housemate, the same thing, like entrepreneur. And I moved in with him after my breakup, Remini, because he, he's in the drinks industry as well. And it was just like I spent every night, like on my own with Emily. But like, I'd stay up to one o', clock, two o' clock on the computer. Like working. Emily would be like, come to bed, come to bed. Like, you know, 9, 10 in the evening, she'd have the TV on from 6 o' clock and like, I was like, I want to be around somebody that's doing the same thing as me because it's fucking lonely.

That's what I've always done.

And to have that discipline, like, to have Paul, who's also. I'm like, mate, you still. Are you still working? He's like, yeah. I'm like, thank fuck.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm about to do something, like, I get so weird when I, like, on my own, I'll start, like, making weird noises and screaming at the wall, like. I don't know.

It makes a big difference. Makes a huge difference, the people around you, for sure. Well, I want to ask you a few final things.

Oh, God, here we go.

I mean, I haven't even thought what I'm going to ask. Well, I guess what do you think's been the hardest thing about the past few years? Not even just business. I mean, your professional personal life, which has been aired on TV to millions of people alongside building a business, alongside, obviously, the personal and relationship challenges and maybe anything else that you haven't mentioned. What do you think's been the hardest part of all that as a. As a blend of experience?

The hardest part was definitely the decision to go and Main Chelsea. That was like the hardest decision I've ever made. I was anxious for, like, a month. I put the decision off for months. Not months, a month. And for me it was like, right, leave a secure, prosperous, stable career behind in finance I'd worked five years for, got a qualification for that, will provide a good, like, standard of living or take a punt on this rally TV show that pays absolute pennies and that may or may not pay off and that may or may not support this brand I'm trying to build. So, like, that. That decision was fucking, like, so scary. And then. But then once I made it, I was just like, right, I've made it now. Like, let's go. Like, you know, two feet, like two feet deep. And then that was. That was the scariest moment for sure. The hardest moment was this breakup with Emily on. On tv. That's horrible. And like, Because I loved her, like, fucking loved it. And I fucked up and I fucked up because we were just in such different stages of life and I just. I don't know, I was a coward and I just didn't tell her how I felt and I just instead acted how I felt and that obviously then reciprocated and. And hurt her way more and me and then had to get aired world. So that's what, you know. So that was tough. Yeah. How's that.

For sure? All right, final question, which I ask everyone, yeah. Which puts everyone on the spot, is if you give three bits of advice to your maybe 18 year old self kind of going into or maybe like when you finish uni or like younger self knowing what you know now just about life and the journey and business. What would it be?

Oh wow.

Just broadly speaking. I've been asked this question before my own pod and I couldn't answer it.

Don't do drugs.

That's probably, that's one.

What. Oh this is gonna be controversial but for me don't go to uni. Fucking get stuck in. But that said if you have that hunger and that, that vision to be an entrepreneur because I wish now that I am in this position I'd use those four or five years at uni and PwC to get a head start where I am now.

Yeah.

So I would go back and not I would have started at 18 and I've learned and failed and learned and failed but I still think I would have been in a strong position than I am now. What else network like don't, don't, don't under value the power of people and like associating with people on the same journey as you. I think whether it be entrepreneurism or you fucking love accounting or corporate finance or marketing whatever fucking dive headfirst with an associate with those people because they're only going to make you better at what you're trying to do and yeah. And it's fucking powerful. Was it three things?

Definitely. That's two. I guess don't do drugs is the first one.

Yeah.

You got one more.

Oh I got that much wisdom to give thanks.

Or else it's like a therapy session always is.

The other thing, as hard as it is, don't be a short termist. Try and look at, try and look at the long term goal. So easy to like say yes that like night out to. What's it like the carrot that's like dangled in front of my face like the easiest one but like try and try and like look further into the future like that it's mad what you can do if you put your head down and look back six months and go fuck. Like look where I've come. And that's what like for me that's like I went through this horrible breakup. I almost lost my business. Another whole story went, got into bed like the wrong people, lost my girlfriend obviously. And I was at this point where like I was gonna lose it all and I was just like I'm just gonna get my head down. I haven't really taken up until now and I look back now and it was about six months ago And I'm like, fuck. Like, what I've achieved in that time is like amazing. But, you know, at the time I was like, it'd be so much easier to go for a bit. It'd be so much easier just to. Just to go on holiday. It'd be so much easier just to, you know, get that short term satisfaction. But you've just got to go in that, like, think long term. Because that long term, once you've done it will become very short term. Like, if you can just do everything for two, three years, you can look back and go, two, three years. That was fucking. Now look at me, I'm sat on a yard.

Time's gonna pass anyway.

I've done my bit. I'm. Now I'm fucking like, feet up, relaxing. So like. Yeah, I think sort of, yeah, it's really easy as young people to like see time as such a. I don't know, like a concept, but it was a set. My mum was the reason that I made that decision made in Chelsea. I was like, I don't want to do it. I don't do it. Like, the fear factor was just like, up here. My mum, from the age of 55 perspective was like, javier, it's a blip in the ocean. It's a drop in the ocean. Like, do it. If it doesn't work out, you look back, you'll laugh, it'll be. It'll be nothing. And like, it's so true. You look at, back at. When I'm 55, and if that had fucked up, I'd look back and go, so, worth the risk. Yeah, so that's it.

That's good. Very, very wise.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was a long episode. I mean, we probably could go on for fucking three hours. But I learned a lot. I think there's a lot of gossip and a lot of business shit in there. And it's an interesting story. I'm intrigued to see where you take it. As usual. Go fucking check out Prime Time. And yeah, check out Harvey. You probably already know who he is. Maybe don't go and watch some of the old. The old Made in Chelsea episodes where he's probably made to look like an idiot for the whole country.

Don't watch any.

Look, subscribe to the pod. Plenty more episodes coming as part of season two and beyond. And we'll catch you in the next episode. Cheers for watching. Peace.