Building Brands, Agencies & Travelling The World - Jem Bourouh | The Midnight Pod Episode 71

Jem's nervous because this is second ever in person pod. We're making this pink. As long as you can, speed, we'll be good.

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Right then back with episode 71 of the Midnight Pod. I was gonna say the first ever German guest, but Karl was the first ever German guest. We've got Jem Burra. Is that how I say it? Your second name?

Pretty much, yeah.

Is Cem short for anything?

No. So my mom's originally from Algeria and in Turkish, Zurich.

I was gonna ask you that.

Yeah. So Cem is also like a Turkish name but written with C. So C, E, M. So this is why like GEM is a bit original, I guess, because it's like the Algerian touch on gem, I guess, yeah.

How would you define yourself? I would say we've kind of known each other online for a while. Got to know each other better in the past week. Been very accommodating. I guess you're a serial E commerce entrepreneur and kind of in that space in many different ways. Agency stuff. Investing, D2C, the full fucking shebang. And you're one of few people that I guess has done both, which we were speaking about. But where does this all start? Because, like, with every guest I have, probably with you, maybe more than some. I don't really know about any of your past. And most of the guests, I guess, as well, are in the uk, where things are fucking UK style. How do you get into this space? Well, you're 24 now as well, because I thought you were older because of the shit you've done, which is fucking impressive. Go back to, like, childhood, teenage years. How did that look? And where did this all start? I guess.

Yeah, so started in Bremen. Grew up in Bremen. Second of May, 98, so turning 25, actually next week.

Oh, shit.

Gonna have a blast.

Yeah.

Grew up not, like, really a rich family, kind of poor, I'd say. Did pretty well in school and primary school. Secondary school was okay. Did good. Graduated and, like, I was always, like, thinking, okay, like, what am I going to do with my life? Right? And I don't know how it was in the UK for you, but in Germany, at least in my school, when you were graduating from high school, there was like, a yearbook where you had to, like, write, like, oh, the funniest guy in school, the guy who gets the most chicks, the girl with the biggest tits. Like, random shit, you know, the. The most memorable moment you've had in school. So, like, really weird stuff. And also one question was, where do you see yourself in 10 years from now? And this was 2016. I was like, yeah, I'll be a millionaire. And this is, like, literally what I wrote down. Like, people didn't laugh at me, but, like, you know, like, people just didn't really take it serious. And of course, like, back then, I never really knew. Like, okay, like, how am I going to do that? Because I was looking at a lot of YouTube videos, how to make money online. This is actually how it started in 2017 and December with Ecom, because I saw all these people all the way back then. Sebast Bedoya, I don't know if you've known him.

Yeah, fuck you. It's that brand. Thursday now. Yeah, he follows me. He used to be a guru, right?

Yeah. Yeah, man. I'm a great guy. Love him. We've actually been traveling with. With Piero and what's it called, and like, quick Europe trip. Like four countries in two weeks. I visited them 2021, I think, in Miami. Then we hung up for, like a week. Anyways, there was this quote, like, oh, what do you want to do? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? Millionaire. And I didn't know how to get there. Right. But then start with E Com, drop shipping, and kind of like, back then there wasn't really, like this one course on how to really get started and how to make money online or anything. So it was pretty much like trial and error. Right. And we're talking about 2017, and especially if we're talking about media, buying Facebook ads is like a very, very early start in my golden age. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, of course, like, there's been better ages, but if we're talking about all these kids on discord getting onto TikTok ads in 2020, 2021, I think we've had a relatively early start to all of this. So started with general stores. Not really successful, by the way. After school, 2016, went to university, studied business, economics.

I was going to say. Yeah, this is. You discovered it when you were what, 17?

19. Yeah. So, like, 18 started when? When I was 19. Okay.

While you were at uni.

Yeah, exactly.

Similar to me. The same as me.

Yeah.

I discovered business and then advertising, ironically. Then I dropped out. I actually dropped out twice. But I discovered Facebook ads at the end of 2016.

Damn.

And I don't even remember how cheap they were back then, but they were fucking cheap.

I think I was running my first Facebook ads in 2018. Probably. Yeah, maybe end of 2018, November, December, I don't know. But, like, how I got started, bro, I was buying fake shoutouts on Twitter from, like, fake influencer pages, like, fake theme pages. I was buying bot traffic on Fiverr. So, like, I literally didn't know what I was doing. And I remember I was at a friend's place and I was checking, like, the Shopify dashboard, you know, like, early days when. When you're checking your live visitors, when you're getting a sale notifications, turn on all that St. And bro, like, I remember, like, I had 20,000 visits in a day and I was like, wait, like, why didn't anyone buy? And like, at some point I wrote, oh, fuck, it's fake traffic. But, like, how are you able to figure it out if on Fiverr it says real traffic and you give the people or the seller the benefit of the doubt, you know, because it's. It's kind of like the same thing when people say, at least people that are not inside of the bubble or making money online is impossible. Right. Or drop shipping is not a real thing. E Comm. Is not a real thing. Making money with your phone, making money with your laptop, it's not a real thing and it's not a real thing unless you really get to know someone or experience it yourself. On how it actually works. Because it's very, very transparent for people outside of the bubble on how this all actually works.

Yeah, it seems fake until you do it or know it.

Exactly. Yeah. And like many people don't even realize like how they want to start out or how they can start out. And I actually have had a conversation with a friend of mine who I went to uni with and like he doesn't really know how to get started. Right. He's working a full time job and like, like genuinely, I don't care if people have money or don't, like if I'm good with them, I'm friends with them, I care about how they are to me, how they act towards me and how our relationship is. Right. Not what they have or the materialistic things. I don't know. I consider myself not really a materialistic person. Besides watches anyways, he was really trying to figure out what he wants to do, but he doesn't really know how to get started. Because you know, if you haven't done anything entrepreneurial in your life, it's not as easy like, oh, you learn a high income skill and then you build a following and then you do some content marketing and then you do outreach and then you do this. But it's like people don't know these things. Right. So very, very like definitely very interesting conversation.

So how long were you doing stuff until.

Did you finish uni on? So I dropped out.

Yeah, you dropped out. How long into all of this stuff was that? How long did it go from running your first ad to realizing this is viable and this was a world you were gonna go into full time? Because for a lot of people that never happens. For most people that never happens. For me I think it took like fucking two years on and off. I was never like head down focused. It was like I started playing around with it, did little bits here and there and then finally took it seriously and whatever. And then once you see something happen, it's ah, okay, I need to double down on this. And how did you. I was Facebook groups. How did you even figure out this shit? Was it YouTube? Facebook groups, Discord.

So YouTube. How to make money online, for example, like a few other people, but also forums online. Black Hat World for example, and Black Hat World back then like super SEO heavy, Amazon affiliate heavy. And then they had like these journeys and people documenting what they were doing, right? And for example, like, oh, this is what I'm going to do, this is the goal and this is how I'm going to achieve. And then they were like, updating them, updating the thread daily. Kind of like Twitter, I guess, if people post every single day. But it was super interesting because they set what they're going to do, how they're going to acquire their clients. For example, this was Google Ads, right? And one guy was like, okay, like, I know Google Ads and this is what I'm going to do. And then he was like doing outreach on Reddit. Now, remember, this was 2018. This guy made like 10k in the first month of doing whatever he did. Like, he had a Google Ads background, but then he was just getting off the ground, like showing his PayPal balance and everything. And the conversations that he's had with, with the prospects and clients, I'm like, damn. Like, it's like, it can be that fucking easy if you just shut the fuck up, sit down and execute and just like, you know, focus on what you want to achieve and what your goals are, not just like all the bullshit left and right to you. So went to uni 2016, stayed two years, dropped out, went to a different university because initially I started international management and then I had all of my certificates and everything, and the specializations that they've had in this university were pretty bad. So I was like, okay, like, let me switch to a different university. I have all of my certificates, so let me just like finish. But business economics, but like a different, you know, specification. Anyways, I was actually enrolled up until 2021, I think. But I never went to uni because already in 2020 I was in Sweden. 2021, I was with my friends in Mexico with Julie and the other people. You met them. And it's very funny because Julian, I. We were always talking about, like, okay, like, we're never going, but we have these exams and especially because of COVID you know, everything was online and he actually managed to finish his bachelor, so definitely props to him. I did not. But, like, generally I don't care. Like, is it going to help me or not? Is it going to make me more money? Like, what is a bachelor? Like, it's a piece of paper for me, 100%.

Same for me. So in uni, you're working on stuff. Yeah. What does your setup look like at this point? You living at home, living with friends? Are you just dialed in 12 hours a day, skipping classes, like in the early days, how did the setup look? And I guess when did you realize it was viable to actually leave? Because you mentioned you could have stayed. Sound like a bit of a gradual. Gradual process.

Yeah. So process was like this initially. Again, like, I didn't have any savings or anything, and I was working a job ever since I was 16. So I did everything from waiting tables in the winter to selling shoes at Runner's Point, which was actually back then with Foot Locker and Sidestep. But Runners Point was kind of like the runner's version for people that are going on marathons and everything. Eventually went bankrupt two years ago or something. So always had jobs, and I was never really able to afford, like, a crazy apartment or anything. Like, bro, back then, 2016, I never had a thousand euros to my name on any bank account. Like, just know, like, because I didn't have that right. And if you have expenses, if you have to pay for uni, if you. If you have to pay for your apartment, for food and everything, like, you're really. You're really scarce with, you know, spending money, not trying to waste money, because at the end of the day, if you have a budget of whatever, 600, €700, which is nothing, and you have to pay everything from that, Bro. Like, I remember back then that there were months where I didn't have any money at the end of the month. And, like, literally there was one month where I was asking a friend of mine, Marcus Richard, shout out to you, my friend, bro. Like, I asked him for, like, some money because my money came, like, in, what, after two days or something, and I had nothing just because my budgeting was off. Yeah. So, yeah, eventually paid him back the month after, and I think I made up for it. Good friend, like, still talking every now and then. He's actually gonna come to Bali. But anyhow, was living in a shared apartment, and I was moving apartments because I never really got along with these people. And they weren't just like, focus on bullshit and party and everything. I was like, bro, like, party is nice if you're in university. Right? But it's not really what I want to do 24 7. I'm not saying partying is bad. Like, I like to party. I like hanging out with my friends. I like going out, but having that 247 every single weekend. And, like, you know, Friday, Saturday, like, come on, bro, like, get a hold of yourself. So moved apartments. And I was actually going to the library always. I don't know if you ever went to the library, but for me, Whenever I went to the library, I had the feeling like, the social pressure. Everyone is studying, everyone is doing something, everyone is taking notes, summarizing, solving equations, all that bullshit. It's like, okay, like, if I'm in the library, I can work on shit. Eventually I was inside of an entrepreneurial organization called Enactus. So I had an office inside of the, well, Department of Innovation, I guess, from the university, so I could work there. I had 24. 7 access, so that was kind of sick. But that's essentially how it started. Worked a lot in the library, in the office, and eventually at home.

And how are you spending your time? Is it Facebook ads? Google Ads? Obviously general store, which is how most people get into drop shipping.

Yeah.

Like, how quickly did that go from just one person on a laptop to I assume, obviously, basically maybe hiring media buyers? All this shit. Yeah, like, how are you spending your time? What was the main lever? Was it Facebook?

Actually not, because the first store not successful. And I ran for six months. I never made a single sale on that store. So it was like half, like, I think 126 products. Half of them were like generic dropshipping products from AliExpress with Oberto back then. Yeah, yeah. And half of them was with Printful Pod and I just took like random vector graphics and put them onto T shirts and hoodies and everything. So first half of the year unsuccessful. And that was December 2017, up until June. And the store never made a single cent. However, I had some expenses, you know, the shout outs, the hosting and everything that you have the domain. And eventually I posted inside of a Facebook group. I wasn't an adleaks, but like all these other Facebook groups that all of these gurus had, right? And I said, oh, I had a store for sale. And I framed it in a way that. Not that I wasn't able to get any sales, but in a way that I didn't have time to run the store. So eventually someone just paid me like 250 bucks, which was €236 at that time. So I made some money back and was profitable with the first business, I guess, even though it's not like a crazy somewhere talking about. But I mean, profitable is profitable.

How did you make it start working?

After that point, I ventured into Google Ads and I didn't venture back into E comm. I ventured into freelancing, into media buying.

Oh, shit. Okay.

And then I ran Google Ads for other E commerce businesses and then I ventured back into E comm because I was like, okay, like now I understand the media buying side of things and now I just need to learn the logistics and the entire back end customer support and everything. And I mean there were great courses out back then and I mean I think one of the only courses I've ever bought, I mean there are a few courses that I've bought, but I think the understanding of really Facebook ads and everything came with two things. Which was John's course back then 2020, but also getting to know my friend Revenue Express. So Joseph. Yeah, but started dibbling in Google Ads and then made it work.

So 6 months not working Google Ads, started dabbling to try and make your own stuff work. But then you realize you were good at Google Ads and saw an opportunity in freelancing. Is that correct? Is that how it went?

Yes.

And then were you still at uni at this point when you started freelancing?

Yes.

And then how long do you start, how long do you freelancing for before it's actually going well and you stop going to uni if that's the time.

So I never really went to uni. That's the thing, right? And I went maybe the first year, but if you're in there and like getting to know some people. But after that I never really went to uni because it was like I was enrolled, okay. And I still wrote the exams. So I went there and studied like two nights or something. And I remember I had a friend of mine in uni that was always going and every, every two weeks he was always going to my place and giving me all of these summaries and everything because I was like, okay, I can do this to make money and make a living and I can do this kind of like for the paperwork because I figured like I might as well just have it for the cv, right? So eventually he came to my place and I always started summarizing everything and then I had the notes and then I was going to uni and just writing the exams. So started to dabble that in 2018 with Google Ads. But then it wasn't that I was like, like crazy. Full time income crazy, like making money like 100k a month. No, it wasn't like that. I was thinking like, okay, how can I get another thing on the side where I can financially support myself, right? Like 100%. Where it's not like, oh, like I'm focused on retaining a client or something or like if someone burns, you know, it's not going to work out. So I was actually still working. Not still, but I started working With Dell, so the computers. Yeah, but it's actually a funny story because I already knew about Fiverr and everything back then and I was responsible for Switzerland after point of sale, so warranty, extensions and all that kind of stuff. So I had to send out offers, do Excel sheets and everything. But bro, what I did is I got a developer.

How do you get into that though? Massive company hiring user freelancer, just application classic internally. I'll just like, yeah, you mentioned Fiverr.

Yeah. So this is, this is what happened after I had the thing because I was like, okay, like this is what I have to do. And I thought, okay, how can I be inside of the office and work on my own stuff while outsourcing it? So I knew what I had to do and I was thinking like, okay, like if I have to do Excel sheets and everything, it's not really that hard because there is macros within Excel and then you can also have mouse macros and everything. So I got this guy to do a macro for me to do the respective things that I had to do. And then the macros worked out fine, like they were exporting the data, saving the file names with the respective clients with the dates and everything. And I remember and I still have videos of this and I sent one of them to Rinus actually, because I talked about this on his podcast too. Because there were times where I was inside of the office working and literally had my foot on the table, like my feet and just like chilling, filming. And then so I was responsible for Switzerland, but I was in Germany. So my boss, quote unquote, was in Switzerland, but the regional manager, whatever for Germany was literally in my row. So I was on the, like he was at the window and I was on the very, very far on the opposite side. So, you know, if he had to go to his place, he of course had to pass me and he was seeing what I was doing and he was asking me like, oh, what are you doing? Like, very old guy, 65, close to, you know, being done with work and like having a great life. So he was asking like, jim, what are you doing? And I was like, oh, I did this, this, this. Because I knew he was like old and he might relate. You know, it's not like some 30 year old guy who's like, no, you can't do this. This is how you have to do it. This is the man. I wish more people would work like you in this company. And then you literally just went back and sat down. So I did that for like a few months. But like mostly automated. And then I was able to go into home office after like what, two, three months or something. And literally I was only working on my shit. So I had some side income that was fixed still enrolled in uni. And then I was doing also my other. My other stuff. Right.

Other stuff is in drop shipping or other.

Other stuff. As in Google Ads, as in Ecom. Other stuff. As an adult CPA affiliate. Yeah, I did. I did a lot of stuff. Adult CPA 2019, 2020.

But all driven by Google Ads because that became your.

No, like, man, I tried so many different business models, like from Amazon fba. Sorry, not Amazon fba, Amazon affiliate. With, With. With like websites, you know, to. To like SEO optimized websites, kind of like review pages and everything. So I tried that. Adult CPA dropshipping, of course, Print on demand trading, you know, I think everyone has tried maybe trading. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it, I guess.

A lot of stuff.

A lot of stuff. Yeah.

So how long was this going on for and how did things progress? This was the next few years. Doing so many things.

Yeah. So this was 2018, 2019. And then eventually, like I made some good money, like five figure months. Five figure profit months. And I was like, okay, like still living in a shared apartment. So what is the next step? And I figured, okay, like at some point you cannot fulfill by yourself. And then it kind of like goes from freelancer to building a team to entrepreneur to, you know, not changing your time for money, but hiring people and having leverage with these people. So essentially started hiring for customer support, number one thing. And E Comm, of course, but also media buyers. Yeah.

All in the Philippines or in Germany? Both.

So customer support in Philippines and also.

Living in Germany at this point. When did you get into the whole. You mentioned living in Mexico and obviously Bali more recently.

Yeah.

When did you decide to start seeing the world, I guess, and becoming a bit more nomadic?

2020. 2021. So 2020, say like four and a half, five months in Sweden during the cough. Cough. Everything was closing down in Germany. Everything was like shut down. You couldn't go partying, you couldn't go like, I remember, like, even after 10pm if you were going out, the police was outside. So if they saw you, you had to have a reason for why you were outside. If you were working in the hospital and all that kind of stuff. And it was honestly like getting super absurd because you had to wear a mask everywhere. And then, you know, I mean, the entire airport situation where people had, you know, had to wear them in the plane, but not in the airport. And then, like, the other way around. So it was, like, always switching and everything. So I was like, you know, I'm good. Like, I sell my apartment, everything. Then I went to Sweden four and a half, five months. Went back to Germany. Three months, first of April, went to Mexico with my old business partner from the US and one week after Julian, like, all of the other German guys came because. And I told you the story before Julian and, like, the. The entire German crew, like, they were considering, okay, do we go to Mexico or do we go to Bali? And one of my interns back then, he made a presentation on why they should go to Mexico instead of Bali. And it was like a funny pitch deck kind of. You know, Julian was presenting in front of all these people, like, I don't know, like, seven, eight German guys. I don't know if this was actually the thing that convinced them to. To go to Mexico. But eventually they went to Mexico as well. We stayed in Mexico, like, what, one and a half, two months? And back then, you weren't able to enter the US if you were coming from Germany, but only, like, from some sort of layover if you were staying there for two weeks, whether it was Dubai or something, right? And because we were in Mexico, we were able to go to the US So we were in Miami, Key west, we were in New York. And then we went back. And then 2021, I was traveling, I think, quite a few other countries. Like, I think 10 in total, September, quote, unquote, moved to Dubai. So set up my company bank accounts, ID and everything for the entire tax spiel, I guess.

Yeah.

Unregistered. December, December 2021. 2021, December. I was thinking, okay, like, what is next? Where do I want to go? Do I want to stay in Dubai? Do I want to go somewhere else? I want to see more of the world. And then I was like, okay. Like, a friend of mine was in Bali and he was like, oh, Bali is amazing. You should come. And that was in rain time. I didn't know. So I went to Indonesia. Had to stay in Jakarta for nine days, locked up in a hotel.

Oh, shit.

Yeah. And it was crazy because you couldn't open the window. And it's not like that. I decided to stay there. But, bro, this was literally the only option available. I remember my assistant calling, like, more than 64 hotels, and they were all, like, booked out. You couldn't go anywhere even if you, you know, were very, very kind to these people or asked for A favor or like, you know, offered them some commission or whatsoever, like, it was all full. So then I went to Bali. Kind of fell in love with Bali, I guess. Wanted to stay a month. Ended up staying two months and then back to Dubai and then again, like traveling quite a lot. The us, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Spain, Netherlands. Like last year. Fifteen countries.

Yeah. Yeah.

Fuck.

Going back to before that, then. So 2019. Ish. Or before that. When do you think you first thought, like, do you recall a specific moment or milestone when you thought, this shit's working now? I don't. There's no risk of me going back to uni, normal job, whatever it is. And I said at the start, when you don't know. Yeah. You don't believe entrepreneurship online even exists. And then you come into the world of it, make it work. I think most importantly, start to meet other people doing better.

Yeah.

What happened to me? Was there a moment that. That happened for you? And if so, what was it?

I think.

Was it more gradual?

I think more gradual. But there were two key moments. I remember. I remember when I was. Because I've never been to the US before 2020. So one critical moment, in my opinion, one of the best books ever. Psycho Cybernetics.

I haven't read it. I've been told to read it. Been told to read it.

I don't read enough. I feel like I've read a lot, but then it's during. During, like the hustle and grind time, you know, and now it's more like very rarely. Audiobooks. Yeah. Anyways, eventually this was one of the moments. And the other moment was when I was booking flights to New York and I've never been to the US and it was always like this big dream of mine. Oh, like, I want to go to the US So I booked flights in New York. I was like, damn. Like, I was sitting inside of the train, going from the office back home, and I just booked flights to New York. I was like, damn. Like, it's, you know, kind of like a bucket. Bucket list thing come true. And it's like, for me personally, it was never at a certain point or threshold of money where it was like, oh, like, now I can do anything I want to do. Because I feel like, like, first of all, more is not always more. More certainly brings more problems, but more doesn't necessarily mean more satisfaction, more enjoyment, more fulfillment especially. And I mean, I've mentioned this in the beginning. Like, personally, I'm not a very materialistic guy. I've bought my. I have, like, Four designer pieces of clothing, but I've only bought them because of keynotes, like to wear them on stage and whatever, you know, and it's not like, like I feel like a better human being. Like, bro, this shirt is like €20 or something. It's like from Portugal. So, yeah, like, honestly, these were the two key moments, I guess, but it was more gradual. I'm curious, how was it for you?

Yeah, I mean, it's always hard looking back in hindsight because you can't remember how you felt at the time. Especially retrospective conclusion. Yeah, I always say when I went to an event In Singapore in September 2017, I met loads of people doing similar shit and knew then I would never go back to doing other stuff. But I guess, yeah, it's always progressive and gradual.

I feel like Singapore is also a crazy, crazy part to go, especially in 2017 considering the fact that the Tan brothers back then, it was there event man. So you've probably met Luke there. Maybe, maybe.

I don't know. I met a lot of people there. That was the first time I ever met people in this space.

But I feel like if you're doing numbers in E commerce and going to Singapore, because this is what I realized, I felt like, oh yeah, like I'm pretty, doing pretty good for myself and then I go to Singapore or like Dubai and then I really like, oh fuck, I'm poor as shit. Because these people are like doing what, 500k a day or something like back then, like months with like 6 million, 7 million revenue. You're like, how the fuck does that even work? Like, especially in terms of supply chain payment processing, like.

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Let's fucking go. You've done a lot of different things, obviously. How I'm trying to figure out how that looks day to day and. And how have you always done loads of different things, I. E. Drop shipping. And they mentioned the agency stuff. I found it. I've always been building brands. I've never done the agency thing. Never done, apart from when I was maybe fucking 17. Like other shit like trading and crypto and all this bullshit. I've always been focused on building brands. And even when I was running two brands in 2020, I found that fucking impossible. So now I'm very focused. I have a brand and have a podcast. But then there's people like you, and I know quite a few that seem to have their fingers in multiple different parties. How do you. How does that even work? Do you just split your day into different things or do you feel like there's a few months where you work on something and then it's moving by itself and you move on to the next thing? And I guess as part of that question, what are those things more recently that you've been focused on? Yeah, so big, big question. But yeah, I'm trying to piece it together.

No, no, certainly, like if you're running several different things, it's very hard to manage. And I think there's like no optimal solution, as in how you're putting in your time. And like, you know, like this day I work 6 hours and 37 minutes on this business, and then the next day or the same day I work 1 hour and 29 minutes on this business. Like, I don't know. For me, that never really worked and I don't see the point of it because what I like to do is I like to prioritize with. And honestly, like, my assistant does that because she knows where leverage is, so she knows what I have to do in a certain day. So she's always taking care of my scheduling, whether it is meetings or anything. Right. And I have time blocks because I think timeboxing is, personally for me, very efficient. And I feel like everyone does it in a different way, whether they do pomodoro or they have three hours of deep work, whatever. Like, for me, I like time. Time boxing. And it's not Like, I have a, a fixed schedule where I'm like, oh, every day I wake up 6am you definitely don't.

Those are your villa at 1pm, still in bed.

Yeah. But like, to be fair, I worked until what, 6, 6am, 7am and this is what I'm saying, like, if there's something that has to be done, taken care of, then I'll do it. And I don't care how long it's going to take. Right. But I don't want to be the type of person because I had that where I was sleeping like two, three hours a day, four or five hours a day. And I did it super consistently. I did it when I was grinding like so fucking hard. And I did it for months and months and months. And I'm not saying I was like very close to burnout, but if you do that for a longer period of time, it really fucks with your head because you don't really understand, you know, like what, what you're wasting there because you as a person cannot function, your businesses can't function if your health isn't in proper shape. Right. So, yeah, that being said, time boxing really good for me personally.

Very German, very efficient.

Yeah. But like, talking about German, I feel like I'm. I'm always like a bit late ish on things, which is fine because I have due dates and I know like, okay, like this needs to be done by XYZ latest and then I'll get it done, but like by the latest point of time. Because I'm really trying to maximize everything that I have in the meantime. Right. So if I know that this is going to be the biggest point of leverage, I'm going to focus on this and I'm going to drop this. So it's like really jumping from A to B sometimes and really extinguishing a fire. And again, like, whether that is the best solution to run different businesses. Not necessarily, but then again, like, I'm not everywhere executing tasks, right? Because at some point you put a C level in place and you're just like bored or advisory or whatever it is that you're doing. So it's not like that in every single company that I'm involved in or that I have or that I own or that I have invested in is that I'm doing tasks that are in an operational manner.

So.

And I think this is, this is one of the keys, right? First of all, knowing where you have the biggest leverage. So really understanding where you need to put your time to make the next move to Scale. So. And this also goes down to business strategy, right? Like really understanding what you need to do and what the next step is. Because for me, I know it's hiring a creative strategist, it's hiring a content manager. Why? Because I'm right now stuck with that. And I mean, I showed you everything that I was doing, the creatives and everything, and even your creative that we're running right now.

A picture of me with his dog or his mate. Dog.

Yeah. But anyways, like, of course it's getting hard from, from time to time, but as long as you really understand what you have to do, what the tasks are, and as long as you have a timeline, whether it is a Gantt chart or just due dates, in my opinion that's totally fine. As long as you hit certain OKRs that you have set or goals or KPIs or whatever it is, like whatever you're measuring your business success with.

Right.

It's not like I'm trying to scale something from 0 to 100 mil right now.

Right?

Like for me it's compound interest and it's always been. So it's not like making something work from today to tomorrow and you know, get rich quick schemes, which it kind of was in the beginning, if you think about it, while trying all of these different things. But I think, I mean, personally, you have to really understand what you like and, you know, what you really enjoy. And after working a month on something, personally, I don't think you're able to tell whether it is something you enjoy and could hypothetically do for the next few years, in my opinion. So to maybe wrap up the question, timeboxing.

Going back, because you mentioned you tried E commerce.

Yeah.

Then loosely you got into freelancing and the agency side with Google Ads. Then you said you came back into E commerce. When was that and how well did that go? Because I know you're still involved in E commerce brands, which you may or may not talk about there. You still do. When you say agency, do you mean freelancing or do you actually have a team under the agency?

Are you talking about back then?

Well, back then and now.

Back then freelancing, moving into agency and right now. Agency.

Yeah. And purely Google. Yeah.

And that's yes, purely Google, but I mean also YouTube, but we don't do any production.

Yeah, interesting. But then moving back into E comm. When was that? You said obviously originally didn't work, then you got Google Ads, then you went back into the space broadly.

Yeah.

When was that? And was that so drop Shipping was that general store?

No, drop shipping. Like niche stores back in 2018. End of 2018, yeah.

How well did that scale? And you said you got an exit.

On one of them? I got an exit on quite a few of them, actually. One of them with Parsa. Do you know Parsa?

Nah. What's that?

He's a good friend of mine.

Right. I thought it was the brand.

Yeah, yeah. Good friend of mine got a few exits actually, and one of them was with Parsa. Was like, bro, fastest exit I've ever heard anyone do. What was, was, you know these Spotify song plaques?

Yeah, dude.

So a friend of mine was running these plaques with his business partner and they wanted to stop it. They're like, we have this entire thing. If you want to run it, run it. This was 2020, right? Like what, August? I remember, think September, October 2020. So when I was in Sweden and I saw this and back then I was, I was working with Parsa and we had like a few stores making good money and everything.

Drop shipping.

Yeah, dropshipping. Parsa did like his. Because Parsa back then, he didn't do TikTok ads, he did Twitter shoutouts. So he was buying shoutouts from Twitter pages. Exactly what it was doing, bro, I never really understood, but it was working. And he was able to sell like crazy products. And then I was doing the Google side of things. We never really ran Facebook, so he was always doing his Twitter shout out thing and influencers and whatnot. And also Instagram pages, actually quite big ones. And then I did my Google thing and then I talked to Parsa. I'm like, yo, like, you want to run this with them? And he was like, yeah, sure. So we ran the store together, three of us. Parsa did the influencers. He probably brought in like, what, 70% of the revenue? I did. Google brought in 30% of the revenue. And it wasn't only brand search or whatever. It was like proper cold and shopping and everything. Displayed the entire whole spiel. And a friend of ours tried to do Facebook, but we never really had creatives, but he was involved, so he was like chilling and got money from the exit. And then another friend of ours back then, he was like managing the entire operations, everything. So it was good because everyone had, you know, their, their responsibilities and everyone was doing what they were good at. And eventually, like after three or four months, everyone was like, oh, it's not really working time zones and this and that. And then I was like, okay, like, let me find a broker to sell this. So like, Literally, like after a month or two, I found a broker. Like, we were barely running ads and we sold the brand after like, what, two months of trying to find a buyer and my five figure exit. And that was, in my opinion, pretty hilarious because it's a story that I will never forget. And it's like every time I'm seeing Parsa, it's a story we are always talking about and we're always laughing about.

Because, like, did that brand exist before you got involved? I was literally like a few months, bro.

They were like literally just trying to run Facebook ads and they spent like 300, 400, $500 Facebook. And then they said, oh, we don't want to continue to run it. We want to. Because they were always building one product source, so they wanted to jump to the next thing. And he know I was doing Ecom tool, so he came to me, oh, do you want to run it? I was like, well, I see the potential. I know we can get it profitable, so we might as well just run it together. So it's like less involvement from all parties, of course. Less money and everything. Yeah, but it was fun, you know. So this brand wasn't really to make like crazy money. Like, we saw the potential and everything, but the team just.

And this is what it was. Spotify Plat, you said.

Or Shopify Spotify Plaques. We still have the website where it's still live.

What's it called?

It's shareyoursong co.

I have a vision of what it looks like.

Yeah, it's these acrylic glasses.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it still exists. It's still running. That's actually a sick product. How did you make these? It's like custom drop shipping, like made to order.

So, yeah, it's like kind of pod. So we had a supplier in China in the beginning and then we eventually found a supplier in the us. But we didn't only sell these. I think the most amount of money we actually made with the keychains. Because there is not only song cover, but there's also like keychains.

Mmm.

Or you have the Spotify code and everything.

I literally had an idea of something like this about 10 years ago. I had like a website called I forgot what the fuck it was called 10 years ago. Like, yeah, Pre Shopify. Like it was. Yeah. And I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. But it's a cool space, I think print on demand, genuinely, when you can make custom stuff, which is kind of what I was doing with the neon stuff.

Yeah.

Where you can just. So much more perceived value, which is interesting. Was there any others that jump out? You, you mentioned you scaled a bunch of stuff.

A bunch of products, you mean? Yeah.

Brand stores in the E commerce space. Obviously you're still in the E commerce space, but in the past.

Yeah, I mean anything, honestly. Dog beds. Everyone knows the dog beds. Sold these. Yeah, they got hot dog beds. Sold them for like quite a long time. Us also in Germany a bit. This was back in 2020. 2021.

The Ecom Girl brush.

Yeah, like everything. Even like inflatable costumes and everything.

Inflatable costumes, what does that mean?

Like for Halloween.

Oh shit.

Yeah. Okay, so different stuff, like home goods from, from couch covers, like all different kinds of shit.

Yeah. Was there anything you ever thought, I want to double down on this and go long term rather than scaling a bunch of short term stuff?

There is one right now which I have showed you.

Yeah.

And I mean you've seen the numbers. I don't even know what we're going to do this month. I think 420k or some shit. But we're not going to go too deep on it.

Can't reveal it.

Not yet.

But do you think that has the potential to pivot into a longer term brand? Because I do.

It has the potential. I definitely think so.

You've done so much shit. I'm trying to fucking piece it together, man.

I've done everything. I've done adult cpa. We were getting cam models from my free cams, I think, and then we had a Snapchat bot and everything. And then the models were managing the content. We had like a bot for Snapchat and we had a Tinder bot. So we were creating all these profiles actually. We can talk about this.

Keep going, keep going.

So if we're talking about the adult CPA stuff, because I think it's very interesting what we were doing there.

Yeah. Because I was just saying kind of before camera, I want to piece it together because you've done so many things.

Yeah. So like if we're talking about the adult CPA stuff, 2020, what we are doing, getting cam models, we were spending like what, 2, $300 on SMS verification for Tinder. So you know when you register to anything, you have to submit your SMS verification code.

When you say adult CPA though, do you mean running affiliate offers in the adult space?

Yes.

And doing so through websites. Well, okay. Yeah, yeah.

So we were getting the content.

This is proper like black hat shit. Well, I guess it's not blackout, it's Great Underground.

It's gray hat because it was free trial. It's not like the MRR stuff. It was free trial and then they were getting a notification was opt in and everything. It was not like they were getting hidden bills or anything.

Yeah.

Anyways, so getting the content, having a Snapchat bot, having a Tinder bot and then all these Tinder bots were sending. This was back in 2020 before OnlyFans was actually a big thing. So we were sending the traffic from Tinder to Snapchat and then the Snapchat accounts were managed swipe up story to the landing page. And the landing page had an iframe with. So an iframe basically. I'm not a developer, but I guess an iframe is basically like please correct me if I'm wrong.

Like a conversion tracking thing.

Yeah, kind of like a box like. Like an HTML code I guess where people can then put their credit card details, I guess kind of just like where you put HTML code, I guess. So we had an iframe and then people were able to enter all of their stuff. You know, we took the code from the affiliate website, from the affiliate portal, put onto the website opt in 14 day trial and then if they were, you know, proceeding, they were built. So again, I strongly want to emphasize on this, it's not pre checked. It's not that they were billed after declining or whatever. They had to confirm. So it was all white hat, 100 white hat. Because one thing that I am very against is all of the shit that is going on in the US with the pre checked MRR or I've heard about this or the custom checkout, man.

I've heard loosely the whole no ship and then the MRR scams, blah blah blah. Like enlighten me in a minute. When you say that, do you mean people running an offer or just even a fucking product?

Yeah.

And then somehow secretly subscribing people where they can't opt out and they can't cancel. And I didn't know it was there in the first place.

Okay, I'm not 100% in because again, I've never done it, but I've seen websites where they've done it and a client of mine has actually done it. And after I was doing well test purchase, after I was setting up YouTube ads, I saw it and I was like, bro, like what the fuck are you doing? Like you can't do this shit. And then I like literally I stopped working with them immediately. And this was also in 2021 and it was like for jewelry. So the way they do it is they run ads whether it is to a product with a regular price or a product that is like $1 back then these free plus shipping things, you know. So they had what, what my guy did, man, so fucked up. He was selling jewelry for $21.99 I think and buy one get one offer. And it was a, it was like a crystal necklace. Like these crystal necklaces with these affirmations they were running on TikTok where they're like oh like usually guys never talk to me but after wearing this, this necklace a guy approached me, asked for my number. So like like that type of angle, you know, like very, very aggressive, very gray hat. So they were running this to a buy one get one offer on TikTok and I was running Google Ads to it obviously. So essentially again went through their checkout and then there was like a checkbox that was pre checked in the checkout and it wasn't the Shopify checkout. Actually I don't know if it was the Shopify checkout. I think it was the Shopify checkout. But like some add on that they have because like you're not allowed to do modifications unless you have Shopify plus, I guess. And it was a pre checked checkbox where it says hey, like you're. You agree to, you know, get billed for what? Not 1499, 1999 and to become a club member of the VIP club. And with the VIP club you get access to this website and which is basically a general store with the same name but like dirty and like cheap and like super ugly store. And then they have all these free products and then they have to pay for shipping. So by having this checkbox they are built for what 1499. And sometimes they even change it that the bill on the or on the credit card statement that it says Netflix or something. Which is so fucked up if you think about it.

I was gonna say because surely the chargeback rate would be like 100%.

Yes.

But then not if people don't notice it.

Yeah. And like honestly I could never do it. I don't think it's, it's ethically or morally correct. Like literally what you're doing is you're scamming people. Yeah, I'm not against subscriptions. Like if you're doing subscriptions, sure. But do it the right way. Like let the people opt in. Let the people know what they are doing. Let the people know what they are purchasing. Let them know people. Let the people know what they are getting at the end of the day and have the terms fair. So the people are always able to opt out and cancel whenever they want. And of course, like we could talk about this athletic green space goods, whatever, you know, like the subscription price is 40 bucks. The one time purchase is 50. They buy the subscription cancel first month. Is it really ethical from a consumer perspective? Not really. Is it smart? Yeah, you're saving money. But you get the point.

Different, like firstly, it's.

No, definitely, definitely, definitely.

We send an email out to people. I mean, I've charged our rates like 0.1%, but that's pretty fair. When we first launched just on subscription, I mean, this is nothing to do with subscription scams. But on subscriptions in general, we didn't send an email out to people before they got charged again. So we had a few. We'd have a few people being like, oh, I didn't realize that I subscribed. Which is just always gonna be the case. But then I looked at what athletic greens were doing, so I thought, well, they're the fucking biggest subscription brand I know of. Yeah, well, one of them. And they would, because I'm a customer, they would send out an email like 5 days before being like, you're gonna get billed if you want to cancel. Here's the cancel button. So then we just implemented that flow and we haven't had a bad review about subscriptions ever since then. And it's a bet it's a better. It's a better count of like true subscribers because we ran a subscription only on Black Friday, which everyone knew is subscription only, but people will subscribe and then they cancel. Which isn't. It doesn't. It fudges your numbers because you think 2000 new subscribers. Yeah, well, actually you got 500 new subscribers because 1500 of them counted after the first month. So we don't do that anymore. So now it's like never as big jumps in subscribers. But the subscribe, the net new subscribers are like actual fans of the product because they want to be subscribed.

Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, what this does, it just inflates your numbers and you don't have any idea how your churn actually looks like.

Exactly.

In order to improve. Yeah. And I think the solution that you've come up with is very smart.

But on the subscription scam stuff, just to wrap that up.

Yeah.

I do genuinely think like a big chunk of dropshippers and Internet money people and so on doing a lot of pretty, pretty shady shit. Not, not Necessarily, no ship or that. But there's this big grey hat, like, area of drop shipping where they're probably not even fucking paying back. I mean, I know most of them aren't. If they ever got audited, they wouldn't have a business. They'd be fucking working a desk job.

Most of them have a device set up.

Yeah.

Like, they think. They, like, not only talk about vat, but also, like, personal tax. They think, oh, I'll set up my free zone company. It's fucking bro science, bro. They all set up my free zone company and then I don't have to pay tax, but I'll still live where I live.

Yeah.

But I don't have the apartment registered under my name, but under someone else's name or I'll move back to my parents. Something like that. Like, pro doesn't work that way. Like, at the end of the day, you always have to pay taxes somewhere. Unless you're not living in Dubai. Then a free zone company or a Dubai setup is not legitimate. Like the. Like, I'm talking from personal experience because I have the Dubai setup as well.

Yeah.

But again, I'm not spending six months out of the year in Dubai, meaning I. I wouldn't be eligible for tax eligibility there. However, I'm paying taxes here and I'm paying taxes legitimate and I have an accountant and everything. So.

Just on that.

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

Do you fully. Do you fully live in Bali now?

Six months out of the year? Yes.

Because, yeah, it's an interesting one. I've toyed with it before, but I just. I don't know, maybe I just have this thing about London, but now I see the appeal of not being in London, certainly in winter. You've been to a lot of places and you've obviously decided Bali is a net beneficial overall place to live. If you're in the online being.

Yes.

How long do you think you'd stay here?

Five years.

Like, and then what?

It's like, honestly, it's just a number that, that I always have on top of my head. Like three to five years. But, like, how the fuck am I supposed to know what's gonna happen? Five years?

Yeah.

Like, bro, imagine your brand blows up or my shit blows up and then, you know, doesn't do, like, what, measly 500k mil a month, but it does. 5 mil a month? 10 mil a month. 10% subscription. Like, you know, like, again, coming back from. From more is not always more. That's true. But also, and I mean, we've both noticed this in A very tremendous way that when you're, I don't know your exact background but I mean if you're starting to make money online, like you're, you know, you're, you're able to afford a more lavish lifestyle such as buying watches, going to restaurants, not like looking at the prices, you know, renting a car here, having a nice apartment here, flying business class, first class, whatever it is. Right. And I feel like for me at least right now there's still another level on top of that. Like for example, I'm not a yacht guy. Like I don't care about having a four story yacht. Like it wouldn't necessarily would make me happier and I, I don't have the urge to say like, oh, I want to have a yacht in, in Italy somewhere. Like I don't care about that, you know, but like maybe having a jet at some point, just like having it easier to travel. Sure. But I think that's honestly the top for me. So again like what's in the next three to five years, I don't know. But for the time being I have my home here, I have my base here, I have all my personal belongings here. I'm very happy here. I have my friends here and of course I have like friends in the US and everything in Europe. But then again like if I travel I see them anyways. There's like all of these events like affiliate world where everyone is coming together at the end of the day and yeah like people are meeting and you know, getting to know each other again, like making new introductions and like just having a great time with your friends. Overall next few years, I don't know but Bali is going to be one of the bases for sure. Dubai is going to be one of the bases for sure because we always have to go. So I've just been in January, but honestly like I, I like Melbourne, I like, I like Germany but Germany is a bit contradictory because I can't stay there anymore, at least for, yeah, less than 183 days.

Do you think you can properly build stuff and scale things when you're traveling? And do you think. Yes, it comes with a caveat of how long you are in certain places, which is how I'd respond to it. This is my every week. It's impossible.

Yeah. And this is what I've noticed last year, like last year I was, I was building, I was doing great. Like I was doing good numbers. Like I was very happy with the progress. But I know for a fact if like I had, I think a bit more than 50 flights. If you break down 50 flights for the entire year, bro, that's like one flight every seven days. And like, of course I'm talking about if you're going from Bali to Germany, for example, that is two flights and not like one way each. But I'm talking you're flying from Denpasar to Dubai. Dubai, Frankfurt, Hamburg, whatever it is. In my opinion, that's two flights because you have a layover. It's one journey, but it's two flights. So think about it, like seven flight. One flight every seven days. That was just way too much for me. And this is why I said for me this year, I don't want to travel this much. I'd rather enjoy where I am and I'd rather stay where I am longer. Because if you're jumping from hotel to hotel, like, bro, you're not getting shit done because you're with your people, with your friends.

I personally feel like you need at least three weeks in one place.

This is what I ideally a month.

If not two months to properly. And even then you have to ideally want to have a network there. So you know the best places to go and you want to know it. And having a network helps you know it. And then you won't have the gym. So like Changu is pretty good. Yeah, because I've been like seven times before. So even when I come three weeks, like I'm here now, I can still slot in relatively quick. So I know where to go. I know what I know people here, I know the gyms, I know where I should stay if I, you know, to be close to xyz. But it's still definitely more distracting than if I was in London. Because when I'm only, only somewhere for three weeks, I want to go out, I want to see XYZ person, I want to see this girl, whatever. Yeah, so it's a constant debate, isn't it? But yeah, I think it is a skill being able to still execute and move the needle when you are on the move. Because it's that far. If I never went anywhere, then I would feel like I was missing out on life. Yeah, you can fucking be monk mode in London for five years, but then what's the point in all of it?

Yeah, then you're like, what, 32?

Yeah. So I try and do chunks of one. It's never monk mode for me, but like properly moving the needle, like just work and then I'll do a few weeks where I'm traveling, I'm still working, I'm Never not working, but it's definitely less. Yeah, but I guess when you've built systems in a team, which I definitely have way more now, particularly with this new business, I don't feel like I'm necessarily hindering progress. You could just argue that I'm not pushing it as hard as I could. But then there's other benefits, like meeting new people. Like you, for example, doing podcasts and shit. So I guess it depends how you structure your life. It's like lifestyle design in a way. So. Because I could argue that being in Bali for three weeks is net beneficial over not being, and in many ways I think it is, doesn't necessarily mean I'm spending more time working, but I could be watering the plants in other areas, so to speak.

Yeah, it's about leverage at the end of the day. And I mean, this is what we've talked about before, like, and I totally agree with you, like, if, if I'm in a hotel for like two days, what are the odds that I'm probably going to an office, into a co working space and sit, sit down there for like eight hours instead of exploring the city that I'm in and you know, like, expanding my horizon or meeting with my friends or having a good time overall. Because like, imagine you're, you're inside of a city and let's say you're going to be in Hamburg actually for like two days. And let's say you've never been. What are you going to do there? Like, sit down, like work two days full? Or are you going to explore and have a good time? And I think for me personally it's about balance. However, I'm very, very good at saying no. And I remember when I had like a very, very long sprint, like eight weeks here in Bali, I was saying no to everything. Like, I was not going out to any parties. And at some point, like, bro, like, I was barely checking my phone. I less than one hour on, on my phone every single day. And one of my friends was texting me, hey, bro, can I call you? And, and like, I, I figured that there is something in the air, you know. And then he called me. Yeah, bro, what's up? Like, like, do you still like me? Like, he, like, he, he's like a bit younger, you know, he's like 20. But I thought it was, it was like super genuine of him because, like, he thought I was saying no because I didn't like him or anything. But I was just like so focused on my bubble, right? And like, I totally understand about at the end of the day, like, if I am in that power position to say no to anything I want and really have control and not, you know, be directed by my senses and by my urges in anything, but like, really be in control, like 100%, then you're winning, I think. And it's not only about, like this example, but it's. It's about anything, right? It's. It's really about being control of. Of. Of also your emotions and really mastering your mind. And I think if that comes into play, like, fuck. And. And I would be lying if I said I'm there. Like, I think it's a very, very, very long journey. But generally speaking, I think I'm in a very good way because I really. I really see, like, the progression that I'm making from, you know, because I'm reflecting a lot, especially about last year. If I think about how last year went with like, the entire traveling and journey and everything, then I really, like, look down at, you know, what happened and the output like, bro, could have been so much better. Like, I could have been way further that I. That I am right now already last year if I sat down properly and, you know, wouldn't have fucked around a lot. So I think again, it's about balance and not just saying yes and yes and yes to everything, but like being very, well, very understanding of your own situation as opposed to what has to be done, but also where is leverage. So I'm not saying it's bad to go out for a week to London and have a good time there with your friends, but it's really about understanding what the next move is and how you can leverage and.

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting topic. I debate it internally and externally all the fucking time. The whole travel versus no, you know, how to spend your time.

Because we're still young, like, well, we don't want to hang out at home the entire time and just work, like.

Exactly.

We want to enjoy the time while.

We'Re young, rich in all areas, isn't it? Health, wealth, love, socially, whatever.

Yeah. It's not only about money.

Like, I think it takes a bit of maturity and a bit of making some money to realize it's not all about money. That's the irony, I think. There's an epidemic of money Twitter and I'm more and more. There's accounts and money Twitter. I can never work out if it's sarcasm or not, which is probably the fucking problem. There's more and more accounts. I see where it's like some 21 year old onlyfans pimp or some TikTok dropshipper or just like some really average fucking shiller that thinks he's the next Steve Jobs and I can't work out if it's sarcasm or not. And they're like posting shit about how they work 18 hours a day and everyone else is a fucking loser. But then the kids like Pasty White looks like he's never been to the gym in his life and he's trying to give life advice to people. You know the sort of accounts I'm talking about. There's one that comes to mind, which I'm not gonna say. But anyway, it's just a strange world we live in and. Yeah, well, at least in this small bubble of like online entrepreneurs or just entrepreneurs in general, at least the ones that put on social, which is generally Twitter and YouTube and there's just so much cap out there and there's no. You can tell when people actually know what they're doing and have a bit of life experience because they just think and speak for themselves rather than jumping on the fucking Andrew Tate or iman bandwagon, which 90% of the Internet doing right now. Yeah. And trying to be them. I mean by the way, not just watching them, but trying to be them where you should just fucking be yourself and figure out what works for you. But yeah, that's a whole other issue.

Coming back to the one size fits all solution. Definitely. And I think this is what money Twitter has definitely come down to, especially in the last year that everyone is like self proclaimed guru and yeah, trillionaire, whatever. Yeah. I don't know, I feel like the bubble is low key, super toxic, that everyone is not like really, you know, I mean I'm very happy if someone succeeds at something. You know, I definitely love it. Like I love to see everyone winning and like some of my friends has like a breakthrough or whatever if they're like having a good time. Like bro, like I'm all about the small things. For example, if someone of my friend goes into the plane, like imagine, worst case, the plane crashes, you're never gonna see him again. Like bro, of course I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell him like, oh, I have a safe flight. Like you gotta not only celebrate like oh, I made an exit for 120 mil. But also they're like, oh, like have a safe flight. Oh, how's your day been? Nice. I'm happy for you. I'm very proud of you. Like, great. You know, and I feel like all this money Twitter is just like so fucking toxic. Bullshit, bro. It's nuts. I don't know.

Yeah, I completely, I know exactly what you're saying.

Yeah.

Coming back to the business stuff for a second, even though I like to get philosophical, I've asked this to someone else, I think forgotten who. If you had to choose the agency space or building brands and E commerce broadly, which one would you pick and why? I know you've done both, which is probably very smart in many ways because there's pros and cons, but it depends.

On your goals, where you want to be and what you're comfortable with, I think, and what you're striving for, especially.

Which one makes more money now for your agency. Yeah, doesn't surprise me.

I mean profit margins on an agency.

Agency is a cash flow business.

Yeah.

Whereas for me, E commerce, we're certainly building brands is an equity business. It's a long term business.

Yeah. And I mean we've, we've had a debate over this before as well. Like it's, it's two different game plans. Like there's nothing wrong with having an agency and making 30k a month, which is what, 20k a month profit, let's say. Which is like 20k a month, bro. Like that's a ton of money if.

You think about better than 99.9% of the world, bro. Like which. Easy to lose perspective on that.

I don't think I've spent 20k on my personal life besides like partying club maybe, but like for rent, for food, for excluding travels. Like let's, okay, let's, let's top it up. Let's say you make 50k a month profit, bro. I don't think there is a legitimate way to spend 50k if you're not throwing out fucking money and like flying jets and shit and have a stupid apartment that you don't even need like 50k.

You also shouldn't spend all of it anyway because it's not going to be there forever.

No, of course in hypothetically, but that's the thing. Like the question is how much do you want to make? How much are you happy with? What are your goals? Do you want to have like a ton of different penthouses all over the world? Do you want to travel the world in a jet? Do you want to, you know, like build something crazy? Do you want to have a huge exit? Do you want to be the next Stephen Bartley? Do you, My God. Do you, you know, just like have a, have an enjoyable life and travel all around the world with your agency and like make some, I'll just say pocket money in relation to the money that you could actually be doing because not, you know, not everyone is striving for the billionaire status. Not everyone wants to be a millionaire. You know, there are people out here in Bali that make like what, 2k 3k a month from freelancing and they're totally happy because that's all they need and they just want to be here and they don't want this fucking high life that we have, you know, and that's totally fine. I'm not going to judge them because again, everyone has different ambitions and everyone has different backgrounds and everyone has different places where they're coming from. So agency for me is more comfortable, definitely more safe because I know what I'm doing, I know I'm always going to be able to get clients. I have the results. One client, for example, I'm not going to mention the name client of mine. I've been working with them for 14 months, I'll tell you after. So I've been working with them for 14 months now. They want to take it in house. Average retainer of this client, like what, 5K, 6K? Something like that. So you can figure out the lifetime value on the, on the 14 months or the total value. Anyways, they're churning, they're taking it in house and a friend of mine who has an agency, he like I've talked to him about it yesterday so I was like, oh yeah, they're taking it in house. He was like, oh, actually I'm working with a competitor and they're in the same market and they're also in a different market. Do you want me to make the intro? I'm like, sure, I have all the data. Like honestly, like no hard feelings if they want to take it in house. Sure. But there's like no non compete or anything that I've signed. You know, we've signed an NDA but there's no non compete if it's a dick move. Not sure, not really if they're pulling the road. Could be a bit controversial. Yeah, like honestly, the relationship started a bit like rocky first two weeks. But like now I've made them like easy seven figures and like Rock and four was every single month with them. So like in terms of agency this is like a very, very nice play. Right. Because you have the skills and of course you have to be on top of the platform. It's always changing. However, the landscape on E Comm, there's just like so much More components that are, that are to it. Right. Like it's, it's totally different because with an agency like of course you don't have to do it with a personal brand, but it could also just be some referral programs, affiliates, literally running ads or whatever it is. But with Ecom Broad it's like the entire holistic view. And this is why. And again we've talked about this previously. I have fiddled in a lot of different things. I've also fiddled in info. We made seven figures so I forgot to mention that. Yeah. Ran up pretty good numbers anyways. Like if you have the background from all of these things from info Adult CPA affiliate. I'm also running affiliate just on Google search agency E Comm. And then the investing part of stuff which we can maybe come to after. If it's interesting, which I think it is, then you're getting a really holistic view on the entire marketing landscape. Meaning you're not really a T shaped marketer, which means you don't really specify on one thing such as ppc, but you are really full stack and you understand you're not the best at every single thing, but you really understand the entire landscape. You know things about creative strategy, Facebook ads, Google Ads and this and that, email marketing, building a landing page, conversion rate optimization, whatever it is. So in that regards, agency, definitely for cash flow. Very good for E Comm. Again like you don't build an E Comm brand to you know, to make 10, 20k a month. People generally build ecom brands to like we're talking about proper brands, not like drop shipping. People build proper brands in order to make a huge fucking exit. Look at, look at Moyes Ali native hundred million exit to Procter and Gamma after Procter and Gamble after what, four or five years?

Yeah.

Which is nuts. Look at what is another good example.

Movement watches, 200 miles. Yeah.

And like if you look at the design and everything, you know. Exactly. It's from AliExpress.

Yeah. Daniel Wellington as well.

Yeah. Even though they declined it in a podcast or like some video that they've had. I don't know if you've seen it, but he was like no, no, no AliExpress. No Alibaba. Like bro, like who do you want to.

So if you run a brand, you know, definitely Hero Cosmetics, 600 mil. I mean these are all unicorn examples. But one of my mates investors sold for very big numbers. Yeah. That is the biggest opportunity in ecom for sure.

Definitely.

Doing both is probably smart in many.

Ways, but it's Also stupid because well right now I'm not striving for this 100 mil 1 bill exit like this. Like I was building a few things. Like I'm exiting another thing on the side right now. Can't disclose. Anyways, you know what I'm building, you know what I'm trying to build and you know the, the well what like how I'm trying to do it. It's not like a general store or whatever but it's like proper great customer experience. And we're not trying to scale one thing to the wound but we're having more solvent approach with like A, B and C products. So like there's a few hero products we're bundling, there's a few products that drive the AOV up and it's like for us it's more about scaling a lot of different products horizontally instead of vertically. One product, 200k a day. And I'm not saying one of these approaches is the right way to go. It's both a good approach. If we're talking about Snox, Snox, the sneaker socks, they did 57 million last year.

If we're talking about just in Germany.

You said yes, just in Germany.

If we're talking about I'm going to Germany, it's not crazy market.

If we're talking about pure lay, they sell jewelry, they made 50 million last year. And it's not that they only have one skill. So again there's like different approaches they have and different sales channels. Knox for example, they're on there and all of these other sales channels, not only Amazon but also Autobompri and like all these catalog things that you have. Right. So maybe summarizing the entire question because I think it was a long course agency, definitely great for making money fast, making profits fast. It's a very sustainable business model. The landscape, if you have a high income skill, the landscape is not going to change. Crazy. Of course there's always new ways of acquisition everything but basically like how you talk to clients, CRM communication, reporting, invoices, it's all the same. It's not really going to change. Like you know, there might be a few software solutions out there that are trying to do that. Chapeau to you. However, again like the basics are all going to be the same and especially if we're talking about Iman, like people bashing Iman for, you know, not running an agency anymore but still selling info, they say, oh, he can't sell info. He doesn't run an agency. Like man first of all you have to understand, he ran an agency for years and the basics, the fundamentals, they are not gonna change. So this is like what's important to consider if you're running an agency, especially in terms of cash flow. And with E. Com the landscape is changing so fast that you always have to be on top of everything. And it's not a one man show. You need the entire, you need entire back end team, you need the entire front end team, whether it is customer support, email marketing, retention, copywriter, creative strategist, content manager, someone tool source creatives, video editor, all of this bullshit. So it's like again, totally different approach. If I had to double down on one thing, it depends on the mood that I'm feeling. Because one is more the safe approach in my opinion and one is more the long term approach.

Which is why, yes, there's 98, 90, there's 10 agencies to every brand owner in my opinion. Yes, probably more, probably 30.

It's the same thing.

Building a brand is way riskier.

Yes.

There's basically no risk from the agency.

Yes.

And people can say whatever they want, but it's just a fact. It's way riskier, it's way harder and you see way less cash straight away with building a brand. Yeah.

Because.

Yeah, just the reality. And people, most people say they're building a brand. Most people that are in the E commerce space are doing Greyhat drop shipping which can be very profitable because it's Greyhound drop shipping. But they're not building a long term sustainable thing. So it's a money making scheme. Drop shipping and agency are in the same category in terms of, in terms of better cash flow. But yeah, there's very few people building legitimate long term brands because it's really fucking hard to do.

I want to get into it. I'm kind of a bit scared of the consumable part of things. I mean especially talking about space goods. If you have something that is consumable, so many different things to consider. It's not like you just ship out a product. You need to pay attention to the unit economy. Except a 3x4x markup. And then you're good and you know, some, some copywriting, whatever, and some good creatives. But you really have to develop the product first, make sure it doesn't taste bad. It's not shit. It actually has some effect. You need to have studies onto the entire thing. Yeah.

Like product is an area that 99% of people in the space don't speak about because they're drop shippers. And they just talk about marketing. Same with agency people. They don't talk about logistics, they don't talk about finance, they don't talk about team building.

And then they're wondering why all their stripes are getting banned and why they have to set up mids and get carnos and whatever.

So many skills required to build a brand.

Yes.

I mean as there are other businesses of course but like it's just, it's such a wide array. You have to be good. Everything.

Yeah.

To be a founder obviously. Hire people that are great. But then. Yeah. It's not just running ads.

Yeah.

Like that's where it starts when you're like drop shipping. But yeah, it's a lot of things to think about.

I think if I would choose to answer the question fully.

15 minute answer.

Yeah. Honestly would be the brand, I have to say because agency is the one thing. But personally I think it's so much harder to exit an agency for 100 mil than exiting an E Comm brand for 100 mil. And at the end of the day this is you know, kind of like nine figures. Something that I'm striving towards too because like okay, like eight figures, been there, done that. But then like what's the next big thing? You know? And I mean you're not building space goods to just have like a measly 78 figure exit. I'm guessing like of course like someone has an offer for 50, 60 mil. Like 5060 mil is life changing money at the end of the day. You know. And like really, really like let's say you'd have the money on this table and you look at the money right now, of course you might say oh no, of course I wouldn't sell. I'd only sell for 100 mil plus. Like fuck. If you see the money and if you think about what you can do with that money, it's a totally different thing. Right. So again it's, it's really personal preference. But I'd go for the brand because it's a long term B. I would only be focusing on that brand and not have any side things and everything.

Yeah.

Because the store, the brand that I'm running right now is just for cash flow. Like I have no intention at all to exit it. Every, like every single cent of that brand, every single profit is going to be reinvested by stock.4 by UGC, have the entire, the entire well content creator list. So I know who to work with and everything. We're building that right now and I think we're doing A pretty good job at that. And honestly then just like take money out of the business, have it run at like consistent high six figure profits hopefully or mid six figure profits. That I can be happy with that. Because again, think about it like what can you do with 100k a month in profit? Like where are you going to put that money? And it's about, you know, not only how you can create wealth but how you can preserve wealth, I think.

Definitely. Definitely. So with that said, where do you see yourself going longer term? You've dabbled in many different things. Lots of experience broadly in the marketing and online space. Do you think you are going to funnel towards. Obviously I've put on the spot, you said branding, but do you think you'd ever sack. Do you think there's. Is there a plan in the next few months, years to really focus on one thing? Do you have like a longer term mission? Do you have a five year plan or you just playing it?

I'd be lying. Yes. Like right now, just playing it year by year. I'd be lying if I said I had a long term plan. The vision is there. Yes. Probably has to manifest a bit more. Thank you.

An aesthetic wine pour.

I can't believe it.

Dude, I'm not gonna not finish it. Best content comes when you've had two glasses of wine.

We never said cheers by the way.

Well, cheers. One and a half hours in. Cheers. That'd be a good thumbnail. The bit in the middle.

That'd be hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Where did I leave off?

Longer term plans, do you have them? What do you think?

So just planning year on year right now, longer term brand play. We have a few things on top of our minds, on top of our heads. If I'm talking about we, I say my team and I, and again, like we've had a few samples made and I'll show you later because it's some crazy shit you've never seen in your life. Like for one we have a sample for one, for the other one, it's.

All the current brand or did this for something else.

No. So for the current brand we don't have a sample but we know exactly what we're going to do because like one of the things, like we know several different things. But one of the things, I'm telling you, it's $100 million product. It's literally not even 100 million. It's a fucking unicorn, this product, bro. I'm telling you, it's nuts. The second thing we already have samples for, but then again this product doesn't really exist. So it's like really. We had to check the, let's say check the ingredients and everything and make sure everything is. It's not like it's. It's illegal, but it's like sometimes, sometimes with certain ingredients you have to pay attention to that. You're not going above a certain percentage.

That's exactly what I've had to do.

Yeah.

Being in consumables. Yeah.

So we figured that out. However, we're not 100% there yet on the product. Like it's probably 95% there. It's just like some. We just need to change the percentage of some things and need to see what's going to happen if we remove a certain ingredient, how the taste is going to be, let's put it that way. So there's plans for this. But then again for this current brand that I'm running right now that you've seen, like the front end team is just missing. We've hired two media bars. We've had to fire one for the US because she wasn't as committed as we shot as we thought she would have been. Like, initially, the results have been great. She's been able to open the US market and literally double spend on half cpa, which was like fucking amazing if you think about it. But then performance went down and we gave her so many new creatives. And it wasn't about the creatives because my business partner tried running it on Facebook and then it was working again. So it was like, you know, was it really her fault or was it the creative's fault? Anyways, hiring a new media buyer right now. We're having the agency in place for the time being. We have a media buyer for Germany and the plan there is to just scale it up for the time being and then take the cash flow and just reinvest. Yeah, I left off. I forgot where I left off.

So how many brands you mentioned? Obviously the one you're working on, the one that's potentially coming. Do you see yourself building a portfolio of brands?

Definitely. This, like, honestly, this is probably one of the main goals I have in my life being into. I mean, like, DTC is what I enjoy and what I love. And like, I just fell so in love with the process of building what I'm building right now. Like it's. It's not even funny. Like I've told you yesterday, I was working until 6am Bro, and I was so productive and I had to. My translator fell through with some, so I had to do it myself. And I was literally like looking up the words in a different language.

Because you drank the wine, that's why.

Yeah, like bro, it wasn't even funny. But anyways, campaigns are going to be launched tomorrow. But yeah, focus on building this first and then see where we can get into consumables to subscription. Because right now retention is very low. Way too low. I think email rev is at like 4 to 6% which is way too low.

Oh wow.

Yeah, and we're still profit like we're still rocking like 15, 20% profit margins which is not crazy. But then again for the AOV and everything that we have, considering the fact that we have only one hero product right now and we're just getting the creatives for all of the rest and starting to scale everything up, I think we're on a pretty good way. And when I tell people like, oh, we want to do like we're aiming for 30 to 50 mil this year on this brand at the current pace, everyone thinks I'm fucking stupid and no one really understands. But when I talk to people and walking through the plan with the horizontal aspect of scaling all of the products that we have inside of the portfolio, which is fucking hard if you think about it because you have to do quantity control for all the products. If there's something with sizing involved or anything, you need to make sure that this is probably working. And I'm not talking about fashion or any, any sort of that stuff because otherwise I wouldn't be having processors. But this is the plan and not only scale it in one country and I'm not talking about this EU dropshipping bullshit, but I'm properly talking about opening a market, having everything in the Shopify plus backend, properly having dedicated translators and proofreaders and copywriters do the entire spiel and set up the product pages and really do heavy CRO on the products, do heavy optimizations not only in the cart but also in the checkout and just like coming up with great front end products and great bundle offers. Where the AOV is then not 30. But you know, let's say perceived value is going to be 120, but you're going to sell for 60. Of course the AOV is going to go up, of course the conversion rate is going to go up. CPCs might be higher, CPMs might be higher, but that's totally fine because at the end you're profiting way more and then just get the cohorts up. But yeah, long term plan, definitely.

What do you Think has been the hardest thing over the past few years. Creatives or just in life? That's a very D.C. answer. Well, maybe that has been the hardest thing, but in life.

I feel like with money comes responsibility and with money comes ego. So really not letting your ego get the best out of yourself. It's important to have an ego, in my opinion, a healthy ego. And especially in the online world, if no one really knows you or like if people don't know you, let's put it that way, if people don't know you personally, it's very easy to, well, really think of a person of something for that they aren't or you know, just like by something they've said in a tweet or on Instagram or whatever it is. And I think that is, that is really hard because you should always make yourself an image of the person for yourself. I remember that we've actually met in Barcelona before, but we've like said one or two words.

Yeah.

And I think that's was very brief actually pretty funny that we get along so well each other. I think it's super controversial anyways, in life, I think again, like this, this entire entrepreneurial journey, sometimes it can get very consuming, I think, and that you don't let the things that you're working on really consume you. So again, not developing an ego and just really staying true to the person that you are deep down inside. Because at the end everyone, like the perception of everyone is so different, you know, like if we have a room full of people with 10 people and we put one, one person in the middle, everyone is going to say different things about that person because. Because the perception of every single human being in that room is going to be different of that person. Because everyone has their own unique identity and character and character traits. Right. And just like perception. So I think that again, mastering your emotions really like personal development. Because at some point I thought personal development, man, I figured it out. But I think it's a, it's a wrong turn to take or a wrong take to have because this is something that never really stops. And especially personal development or even marketing knowledge, like the landscape is changing so quick. So like saying you figured something out or saying you're like the smartest in the room or something very hard. So this is like one of the things that I'm trying to do, like really be involved in my circle that is very tight knitted and not be involved with the wrong people because it takes a lot of energy from you and you can make a lot of bad decisions and a lot of wasted energy and a lot of bad decisions. This is where it's really going to get you know, into a downward spiral, I think. So if we're talking about life, this is probably it.

Okay.

How about you?

Well, are you asking me?

Yeah.

Christ. I've probably answered this in my own pod before. I think probably trying to get the balance right is one thing between girls, life, traveling, business, priorities broadly. I'll cop out and say that as an answer, I think it's difficult.

Fair enough.

Final question for you. We could probably go four hours and go down billion rabbit holes. I ask every guest this upon reflection, knowing what you know now, what three bits of advice would you give your teenage self?

First one, relatively easy. If there is someone out there that has done something and has, let's say, citrus paribus, so everything's same, nothing changes, let's say, same background and everything. The only reason why you can not win because you stop. So I think success is inevitable unless you stop and not dedicate your time to something and energy. Because, like, think about it. If I would have stopped after I have sold the first dropshipping store of mine for $250 in that Facebook group, I probably finished my bachelor and we'd and would be working corporate 9 5. But now I'm fucking living life, traveling the world, you know, so that's the first thing. Second thing, consistency is key and compound interest is a real thing. So just because you don't see the success right now, but you. And you might not be able to see it within a week or a month or six months from now, that doesn't mean you're not making any progress. It's very important to track things. It's the same with, with anything, right? Let's say you're running ecom and you're not tracking your P and L. Like, how do you really understand if your business is growing if you don't track your numbers, right? And it's the same in life. And I think we could, we could give this back to oura Ring or Whoop or whatever, you know, tracking sleep, my fitness pal. Tracking calories. And I think you could really, you could really dive into a rabbit hole with this. But this is the second thing. Compound interest is a real thing and it kind of, you know, connects with the first thing that if you, if you stop, you lose. But, you know, you shouldn't be frightened by not seeing success the first day you do something because shit just takes time and shit is hard. And the third thing is, Let me think, you're on the spot, which is fine. Third thing is. Just staying true to yourself. Not, you know, changing who you are to be liked by people and just like continue to self reflect and really change into a better person. Because everyone has bad habits, everyone is doing bad shit, you know. But at the end of the day, it's really about understanding why certain things have went the wrong way and how you can learn from them. So that's my three pieces of advice.

Boom. It's been a pleasure. On that bombshell, we'll end the pod. As always, subscribe. I'll put all gems links down below all of those and we'll catch you next episode. Cheers for watching. Peace.

Sam.