Cernucci founder reveals everything about the journey from zero to £100m+ | Fred Buckley

Do you remember the day that the wire hit in the bank? Um, that's what everyone wants to know. Yeah, weirdly, I was at a 7-figure amount, right? Yeah, we just don't know which side of the spectrum. It's enough, it's enough to buy a lot of watches.

Yeah, yeah, I was at a funeral.

At a funeral? Yeah.

Whose funeral? Uh, fucking tragic story actually, it's from, um—

So we're back with episode 81 at the Midnight Pod. Fuck, I need to check. This has arguably been the longest coming episode in the history of the pod with someone I regard as a big inspiration to me. One guy that's been in the picture for many, many years, one of my best friends for sure, and probably one of the most successful people in the industry, Fred Buckley from Sanucci.

So sick to be here, man.

The only guy that's in his mid-20s and has built a brand of multi, multi-eight figures and has done one thing, I think, for like your entire career, right?

Yeah.

I've done like 5 different things, probably chopped and changed too much. Um, you've been pretty underground for a long time, but now you've been coming out of the shell. Yeah, the past few years. I remember when I tried to get you on this in 2021, it was like, nah, 2022, no, 2023, 2024, 2025, it's like a slow no. Yeah, then we said we'd do it on the fucking Burj Al Arab helicopter pad. That didn't quite happen, but we are in a studio.

50 CPOs.

Yeah, I want to dive into loads of stuff. I feel like your story is actually like legitimately interesting, and you— I don't feel like you share much of it in your own content now. Yeah, not really doing more of the polished stuff, which gets fucking way more views than my shit. But you knew when you came in the Midnight Porter, it's going to go deep.

100%.

Yeah, we've even got the red wine, which we'll dive into. Um, I feel like the stuff people don't know is probably the earlier stuff, right? It's kind of— everyone sees Sonucci now, and well, I think more people know Sonucci than know you, right? Which is probably the best way to be as a founder anyway. You haven't been a very public founder like ever until probably the past year. Yeah, got Kareem on board, views in like 150,000+ on YouTube. It's like, fuck, I'm doing the pod for like 4 years, still down in the 2,000s, 3,000s. I want to go back to the start though, because when we met in 2019— yeah, in Covent Garden, legendary— after Rohan Khan, who's another e-com guy which may or may not be watching this, intro'd us on Instagram after you met him in Bali, I think. And I was like, who's this cunt? Um, then we went for like a Thai dinner then we moved into what I think was the most legendary setup ever, 10 Enzo Muse in April 2019. Then we lived together in obviously B152, or B151 and then B152, that whole London period during COVID I think 2020 was a legendary year. Um, and then we went our separate ways slightly, but obviously I've always been in the same circles, stayed close since then. But I actually don't know that much about like before that, obviously. Like, you're fucking 3 years younger than me, which is crazy. And like super, super successful, probably one of the most successful people I think in the industry that isn't a guru as well. But you didn't even go to uni. Like, talk me back to like the early days for anyone that doesn't know. Obviously like Brazilian— well, not obviously, but half Brazilian, half English heritage.

Yeah, yeah. So I grew up on the outskirts of London, and I've always had some like entrepreneurial spirit, and I always wanted to try some things. Like even from ages of 11, 12, I'd go around our neighborhood knocking door to door to like clean cars and, you know, the classic story. And then during school I became friends with a mutual friend we know, Nima. He was a bit of a GOAT and obviously got into, you know, created businesses really young and early, got like, had some amazing success with crypto. And he was my first source of inspiration in school for like somebody who was working for themselves, doing really well. And that really inspired me to explore, like, I can't go to uni, I want to try something like online when everyone goes to uni. And I actually worked really hard in school, and I did really well in school. I was very academic, and, you know, I was trying to get into a uni like LSE. You know, I was really like— before I kind of decided that I wanted to create something, I was looking down that route. But, um, anyway, in like when I was about 16, I decided that when my friends go to uni, I wanted to start something. So Nima helped me with some direction. I started going on YouTube looking at different options, of course, like affiliate marketing, e-com, dropshipping, uh, social media agency and stuff like that. And what fit my budget was dropshipping because I was working at Waitrose at the time and I didn't have bread to like—

it's a legendary picture, that.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good spot to work, to be honest. And then, um, yeah, so didn't have money to buy stock or anything like that, so like managed to get a trial on Shopify while I was working at Waitrose. And, uh, sorry, this is also when, uh, like 18, almost turning 19, all my friends had gone to uni and some of that. So decided not to go.

So had you finished school at this point?

Yeah, yeah, period.

Yeah, you're working Waitrose then? Yeah, that's the exact same as me. I was in Waitrose and John Lewis.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, so like in late teens I decided I was going to do this and then didn't go to uni, got the job discovered dropshipping. And then Sanucci actually started off as a dropshipping brand, but it has always been men's fashion. So I had, you know, men's like blazers, wallets, hats, jewelry, everything. And it was, uh, like a fucking really hard grind, to be honest. Like, it took 6 months of trying things, you know, running ads or paying influencer pages and stuff. And I finally got my breakthrough 6 months in, and it was on the jewelry. So mid-2018 is when Sanucci became like a men's brand, a dropshipping jewelry brand. And then from that point, it was just slow growth, from growing it to, um, you know, growing it more in the UK and the US. And then I was stacking up more cash, and I was like, okay, I've got an opportunity here to create something of value and like an actual real thing. Because I even recognized back then, like, I knew it was just like cash flow stuff. It wasn't— I wasn't creating an asset. So that's when I decided to invest in working at 3PL, ordering stock, making custom designs.

And then I've skipped a few stages there, but I was going to say we'll get to that. Yeah, I'm gonna give the whole podcast away. Yeah, but originally, was it— didn't it was actually Nima? Would you have gone to uni had you not met him? Well, because I feel like there's always one thing, because for me, I just— I felt like I always knew I didn't want to go to uni, but I did. And then I kind of knew I'd finish. You never even went?

No, I never even— yeah, I never even went. And well, I actually didn't get into LSE. So that was the only one I wanted to go to. Study what?

Economics.

Oh yeah, because I was literally like, that was like in my head, I was like, this is the, you know, the way I'm going to make the most money, you know. It's like economics, London School of Economics, I'm in these circles and crowd, it was going to be great. But I didn't get into that. And then I think second one was like Leeds or something. I was like, I definitely don't want to fucking go there, um, to that uni. Not, not necessarily shading against Leeds, but yeah, um, so yeah, with Nima there. And then I didn't get into LSE. These two things combined actually is what was like all right, I need to like, you know, try something.

There was a football career at one point, right?

Yeah.

So like a junior stint?

Yeah, 100%. And up until I was 12, like, I was playing at a very serious level, and that was genuinely the dream I had, was to be a footballer. But pretty traumatic experience when I was like 12 years old where I dislocated my left knee. And, you know, just picture like my shin bone was almost poking through my skin, and I was looking down like— it was like a really horrible injury. And I was never the same player after that. And then a few years later, I tore my ACL playing football as well. And that kind of confirmed, like, all right, this dream is over. Um, I played it in academy as well, but then I got released just like, you know, amidst all these—

in Watford Academy?

It was Luton Academy, actually, ironically. Um, which is obviously a small team, but they produce some amazing players. And yeah, like, from, from 12, 13 years old, you know, you get pulled into a room and said, you're not good enough to play here. And that was like, again, another really traumatic experience. Like, I had to grow up very quickly. And I had that, like, you know, getting told, you're just, you know, you're not going to make it here, you need to improve. All this shit was a big reality check. And I think that was another— well, that was a pivotal moment in me, like, really becoming independent, becoming a man, and like thinking, okay, in this world I need to like fucking do things myself, and I need to, you know, take accountability and improve, and, you know, all this stuff. So that was a massive moment, to be honest.

Straight after that though, when you're like 13, did you think, oh, I need to figure out the next thing to like do something great, or was it more just like, fucking 13, didn't really know?

No, I mean, to be honest, I still held on to the dream because it was quite soon after the injury, and I thought I just need some time to like, you know, recover and get better. But, um, I definitely motivated me to work hard in school, and like I was— like I said, I studied hard, I did all my homework because my mom's also from Brazil, and if you don't do well in school in Brazil, it's like disaster for you. Most likely not going to have the best life. Particularly back then when, you know, I guess now you could argue, of course, even in Brazil you can create businesses, but from my mum's upbringing and stuff, you didn't get a good education, it was like terrible life, poverty, you know. So I recognized, all right, football's not the play, I need at least to work very hard in school. But then, like I said, in the meantime I was still going around the neighborhood and trying to earn money and, you know, just like trying to do what I could to create independence for myself, you know.

So yeah, what do you say your home life was like? Um, so like, do you consider yourself coming from like a poor family, wealthy family, somewhere in between?

I think, yeah, like I had two— my childhood split into two halves because half my childhood I grew up, um, not far from Watford Junction, which is like very normal area, like what you consider like your standard English neighborhood, right? But then my brother got into a good secondary school, free school, it's called state school, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

So he got into a really good one, and, and also It took a long time, but like, I can't remember it, but my grandma, my English grandma died, and she had a house in a very nice area. And after all this time, I don't actually know the details, but we managed to like kind of inherit it or be moved in. So I went from this very ordinary primary school in a very ordinary house and neighborhood to going to another like great state school, but then it was a much wealthier area.

So you went to the same school as your brother?

Yes. Yeah, I got in, and I was the only one from my parents.

Is it a grammar school, the ones you have to apply to get in?

No, no, it was a state school. Okay. But I was the only one from my primary school to go there. So I mean, that's the whole experience in itself. But that was, um, so all that to say, kind of that, that visibility of going to a state school but still growing up in a great area, and I got to see like a different side of life. And, you know, like a beautiful area, my friends who I became friends with would live in sick houses and fucking go out for the weekend, they'll get £20. It was like I was so lucky to have this experience because I didn't— I grew up in a great area, but I didn't have any money from parents or anything. And, you know, we might go on one holiday a year, but it was a camping trip in fucking France, you know, driving from our house to France and then back, you know, after a week. It wasn't glamorous at all. But what I was— what I'm so grateful for was having the visibility of what is possible, because I think that's what holds a lot of, like, you know, poorer families back is like they don't even see what's possible. Whereas I was somewhere where I didn't have anything but I could see it all, and I was like, fuck, I like it. It creates a different type of motivation and like craving for it. So that's what really inspired me to become money motivated too, early on.

And what specifically did you see? Just big houses? Or—

yeah, I guess so, big houses and also freedom that my, my friends would get. Like I'm saying, even as small as £20, like back then, you know, you could last like a day out and fucking get sweets, you can get food.

Like, it sounds so small.

Be it then, uh, shortly after the football thing, it's at the same time, 11, 12.

I've actually never been to your house.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, uh, I've never been to Watford, you know.

Yeah, I mean, driven through it. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like there's some beautiful areas of it, obviously. Like, it's just the outskirts of London, you know. There are some nice parts. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so that was like a big part of why I'm also here today is like moving to that new area, going to that better school, because I was surrounded myself with like just—

Do you honestly think if that hadn't happened you wouldn't be a founder? Is that like a butterfly effect that you can't really— you can't put it together in hindsight? It might have happened.

Yeah, it might have happened. I do like think that you really are born with the DNA of being—

Yeah, I fully agree.

Yeah, like I think, you know, happy—

You've got a brother, right? Yeah, he's older than you.

Oh yeah.

Who's similar to my— well, twin brother. Um, not— they're not similar, but I mean similar in the sense that they're very different to us, right?

Yeah.

He's not a founder.

Yeah.

Like, where do you think that came from?

Well, I think what I was blessed with again was that I was always pretty good at everything, academically, athletically. And again, like, despite some other things, you know, my dad was very tough, like You know, it's just classic story of like, no, you know, no emotion really, and nothing was ever good enough. But when I went to play football, he used to take me to football and he would say, you have to be the best. There's no point playing if you're not like George Best. He would always reference George Best. So George Best walked on the pitch and he was the best player on the pitch every time, and that's why Man United won. And, you know, he referenced Paul Scholes and all this stuff. Yeah. And that was, you know, that, that even, even having that, that my brother didn't have that to say, like, my dad did train that into me, of the type of mindset.

As in, your brother didn't get that from my dad?

No.

Why?

Well, he wasn't athletic. It didn't— like, did a different thing.

That was the vehicle, the sports that your dad would relate to?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, my dad also, like, loves football and stuff, so that was, you know, maybe also like a personality preference difference. But I did have that upbringing that my brother didn't have. But like, even outside of football, I was always still more entrepreneurial than him in terms of what I was trying to do, and you know, like things that I'd do inside of school, outside of school to try and get money and stuff like that, you know.

Do you think he's happier now?

Uh, I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah.

So I always joke that I think my brother's definitely happier than I am. Just like more normal life, more chilled.

Yeah, no, there's certainly a cost to it, cost to it. And especially I think it's quite directly correlated with like your ambition and how far you want to go and what type of business you want to create, how big of a, you know, singular brand you want to create too. Because yeah, I just think the bigger you want to go, the more responsibility you want to have, the more— the higher the stakes. That comes with fucking more stress. It just is what it is, isn't it?

So the first year of not being in school, you're 18, going on 19, whatever, because I dropped out in that first year as well, went to do a placement, then eventually went back for like a year, but that's irrelevant. Like, what was your parents' reaction? Like, what was the actual setup? So you're living at home, your parents have— I'm assuming you're living at home, you're working at Waitrose. Yeah, you're making fuck all money, but you know, enough from a job.

Yeah.

What was the plan? Well, was there a plan at that point? It was like, fuck uni, I'm gonna figure out.

100%. It was literally back against the wall. Like, I told everyone, like, I told everyone I was going to make it and do my own thing. And weirdly, I had a different type of pressure where I never— I've never really had doubters in my life because, like I said, I've always had a decent track record in sports, in in, uh, academic stuff. Yeah. So people always assumed I was going to do well, which is like, you know, that added some pressure to me because I told everyone I was going to do well anyway. And then for my parents, like, they obviously really wanted me to go to uni. And then I, um, yeah, I told them I'm having a gap year, I'll go uni in a year. So kind of I gave myself a year to figure out. And, you know, luckily I guess I did.

Yeah.

But yeah, like, during that time, the parents' reaction, it wasn't— I mean you know, like, it wasn't the most supportive. Like, you know, some things they would have said that is— at the time, you definitely would consider it like, fucking hell, like, they're super demotivating, they're discouraging you. You know, the classic, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. You know, I've even got a note section of like shit my dad would say. Or, you know, like, Alicia, my mum's everything to me, but she also said some stuff, and she'd reference family members from the father figure more.

I mean, I was the same. I remember distinctly being told you're fucked because you dropped out of uni.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I guess it's just like—

so was your parents similar?

Yeah. And I think, I think until there's like proof that it's working, right? Yeah. But even then there's like, oh, it's probably only working for now, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, when did you, when did you feel like you got to the point where they were like, okay, he's gonna figure this out, or has figured out? Was it soon, or did that take years?

No, it took years because I was also— and again, like, I promise I'm not cussing my dad out, I'm so grateful he, he was like this because it created me ultimately. But there was one time where I think I did a— I was living at home, I was probably 19 at the time. I did my first £1,000 revenue in a week.

Yeah.

And I was so gassed.

I was like, this is with Sanucci, right?

With Sanucci.

Yeah.

And I was like super gassed, you know. I was like, I went to show my dad.

Yeah.

And instead of saying, wow, that's so sick, he gave me a bollocking and said, why aren't you paying more rent? What the fuck? Like, yeah, not even, you know, you're paying—

I couldn't— I know what you mean.

Yeah, you're paying through— I think I was paying £300 a month rent, and it was like, you know, fucking busting my balls, like all this stuff. A thousand pound a week revenue as well, like, but yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, probably. And yeah, there was no— there was no support at all. And from that moment I was like, oh shit, I need to kind of be a bit more private with this stuff. Um, um, I don't feel like you shouldn't at that level.

No, £300 a month's all right.

Yeah, £300 is fucking solid, bro. Like, that was actually like a lot. Yeah, and, um, yeah, from, from that point, that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to keep it private for a while. And I think that the next— the time they just started— stopped asking me about it was probably when I moved in with you in Enscombe, because when did you leave uni—

sorry, school? Summer '17? Was it summer '18? Yes, would have been '17. '17, yeah, because, yeah, you're 3 years younger than me. I was summer '14, basically.

And then I was working at Waitrose for a few months, and then I started. So it was like towards the end, it was like end 2017, early 2018 is when— yeah, so she kind of started.

So walk me through then starting it, because firstly, was that literally the first thing you'd ever launched? You hadn't launched anything else that had not worked? No, it was the first thing.

Yeah.

And was that like an intentional decision? Because like you've always been interested in like hip-hop and all that and jewelry, or was it literally like— because obviously I think it started with what, watches and jackets and shit. Yeah, classic dropshipping. Yeah, fashion store. Yeah. Or was it like, was that a grand plan?

No, it wasn't a grand plan. It was genuinely like, um, I definitely had an interest in fashion, in accessories, and in music, in this, this whole scene. I've always loved hip-hop, so, you know, I was always drawn to it. But I was also looking at it from an opportunity side of like, yeah, how can I make money? So It was partly my interest and partly like I was genuinely wanted to create a sick business as well that I can benefit from.

So yeah, so had you had any like tangible interest and time spent learning e-com before, or was it always just like, fuck it, I'll do something? And then when you left school, you had to figure out, and you figured out e-com through Sanucci?

Yes, but I used YouTube a lot, and I was like, like even that period before I started Sanucci, I was like all over YouTube, like studying it so much. But studying e-com specifically?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, studying dropshipping.

Yeah, yeah, from like OG.

Was there like a specific like influence or something? Because for me it was Murray Edwards in 2016.

Yeah, I actually don't know the OG, he's not around anymore. Um, uh, Tristan Broughton. Yeah, yeah, Tristan Broughton. I don't know what he's doing now, but he was such a GOAT, man. If he's, you know, if he ever watches this, then shout out to him. Uh, who else? A guy called Sebas Bedoya. Yeah, he was also—

he has the Thursday brand, right? Yes.

Yeah, and also for me, like, he was a He was quite relatable because we're similar age. Yeah, like he was into hip-hop, he lived in Miami.

I was like, YouTube anymore? I don't think he is, right? Kind of went—

oh no, I don't think so. Yeah. Um, so there were a few for sure that I was definitely, uh, inspired by, learned a lot from.

Yeah.

And that was like, that was, that, that was kind of that dropshipping era which lasted like a year and a half until we moved in together.

But talk me through that year. Yeah, like, because I think a lot of people listen, like, I think a lot of people just wonder how the fuck do you start when you have no money? They almost don't believe do you start with no money, right? Yeah. And I even think back to myself and think, well, yeah, I had no money, but I did start.

Yeah.

Like, what did that actually look like? You're sat at your laptop, you've made this website, you've got what, I don't know, did you have any money? Like £1,000 quid?

About a grand, I reckon.

And was it just Meta ads, dropshipping?

Yes.

What was the first 6 months in like simple terms?

Yeah, so I was earning from Waitrose about maybe £1,200, £1,300 a month. Yeah, after all the taxes. Full-time, uh, it was, it was actually almost full-time. It wasn't, it wasn't full-time though, but it was like 4 days a week or some shit.

Yeah.

Um, and paying half on a Sunday.

Working there, hated working there. Yeah, it was, it was all right at the time. I always thought, I can't—

yeah, on the trolleys and shit.

That's the rite of passage, I think.

Yeah, wait, that's good. And, um, uh, but yeah, no, so when I was getting started, it was pretty much like fucking $30 a month Shopify trial. Oblow was like $19. Um, these are the tools, you know. I think my fixed costs were like $100 a month. Yeah, so that was fine. And the only cost was the marketing. So when I started it, the first form of marketing I was doing was paying men's fashion pages, you know, all the classic ones like Men's Lifestyle. Well, I don't know if they're around anymore.

Yeah, I remember them.

Yeah, they weren't working. So then I tried just men's pages, men's football pages, boxing pages. They weren't working. And then Like I said, what was the main product at the time? Uh, bro, I was trying— so with all these pages, I'd try one for like t-shirts and one for belts and like one for wallets. But the first thing to sell was jewelry, and that's when I got the taste for it, and then I went all in. And that's when I started making ads for jewelry. And then I learned Facebook ads through Tristan Broughton, uh, from his content and stuff. And that was like PPE, post-page engagement, like all these strategies.

I fucking miss those early days.

Legendary. Like and I was running it all myself. Um, and like I said, literally the only fixed cost, because obviously with dropshipping you only pay for stock once it's sold. So yeah, bro, I was like, set up the website, set up all the products on there, the branding from Canva, you know, like just the most resourceful way you could, you could do it. And, and, uh, yeah, took a while, but that's— love that. I'd start working on the jewelry and then went all in on jewelry ads, and it was the tennis bracelet and tennis chain, which are the best sellers.

Were these the ads that Connor McCloskey was in? Yeah, was that later?

There's been a few now though.

Yeah, with like the fur coat and shit.

Yeah, yeah, so good. We must have whacked that picture up. Yeah, but yeah, all the friends with the models, um, and yeah, that's— I was in the content.

So when did Sinucci start? Mid-'17, like summer 2017 officially? Was it later than that?

Uh, later than that, like end 2017.

So pretty much 2018 was the first year. Yeah. When did you feel like, shit, this is working?

Mid-2018.

And what were the numbers like when you felt like, yeah, I could quit Waitrose or whatever?

Um, the numbers—

when did you quit Waitrose?

The numbers were about, in revenue, £15,000 a month revenue.

Yeah.

And then the profit was about, um, £5,000.

Yeah.

So that's when I was like—

I still feel like that, that level of stuff is the most life-changing.

100%.

Because I remember that, that was similar situation, and like when you realize you can do stuff like online, which at the time was even more niche, and you don't have to fucking stack shelves. It's like, it's an epiphany. 100%. You've seen the other side.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that's more impactful than like a million pound month, 10 million pound month.

Oh, 100%.

Like, nah, the relative shift, big perspective.

I completely agree. Now that time, bro, when like I could go to, you know, I could get my own food and stuff without thinking about it and go Nando's and stuff, that was the best feeling of all time. I could travel. I went to America on my own for a month when I was 19. I went to Australia.

Wait, sorry, so how long into 2018 was that 15 grand a month? And then, because obviously you started traveling— yes, that was shortly after, or what was the 2018 timeline like?

Yeah, so 2018, mid-2018 is when I was like, okay, I can quit Waitrose, go all in. Then bang, mid-2018, I also went to— I also went to America for a month. Yeah, and then I came back for a couple months, September, October, went to Bali for 2 months. That was a lot.

So, for— do you meet some guys online?

So I went with Connor McCloskey for a week or 2, and then I was there on my own for 6 weeks.

Was that April 28th? Wait, later, or—

that was later. That was the first one in October 2018. Yeah, October 2018.

So pretty much a year of Waitrose after school before it started working, like summer '18. And after that point—

and I'd consider that quite quick, like I was quite lucky. Like, I was obviously— I was pretty focused, and I was lucky, maybe fortunately, I didn't know anyone doing the same thing, which maybe is like less distracting as well. Yeah, because I didn't get shiny object. I was just like, all I know is these guys in America on YouTube, like, you know. Yeah, so, so yeah. And then October 2018, went to Bali on my own, like, like I said, have some fun with Connor for a week. But then, you know, I was just in there like 19 hours from home, I was on my own. And that was not only for me to like push myself to go and introduce myself to people, go to Dojo and these—

that, fuck me, that's the OG legendary, bro, shut down a few years ago.

Yeah, no, I know it's matured so much, co-working events, and I'd go with them, introduce myself, and you know, I was like, I think Bali is the literal like breeding ground for greatness almost. Of course. No, there'll be so many legends.

I've told to go there, including Tristan, who's like actually doing really well now. People will know him on this, on this channel. He DM'd me saying, like, years ago, he was pretty similar to you. This is like 5 years ago now, when he was like 16, I think, or like 17 maybe. He's like, oh, what should I do? I watch the YouTube. I said, just go to Bali. And he went to Bali, and he said that was the single biggest butterfly effect, like, ever.

100%.

I don't want to take credit for what he's done since, but it's cool what that can do, like, meeting new people.

No, bro, I think, like, the number one thing, like, if I get a question in my DMs from an absolute beginner, it's just leave your hometown.

Yeah.

Because once you stop, once you just leave that environment and those like conditions that you're used to, those routines, and you know, the opinions of people you know, that is when your life will actually change. You know, go get the red wine out. Come on, man.

Just to say, have you already tried this?

Yeah, I've had some.

Yeah. When? Oh, you saw it? Yeah.

Okay, fine.

Yeah. Yes, the tradition, for anyone wondering why we're getting red wine out in the podcast studio, for anyone, anyone that used to watch the OG pod It was pink lights and red wine. The production quality was dog shit, but the culture was strong.

Yeah, culture is deemed.

I think some of the best episodes were like 2 or 3 bottles. We're only doing 1 bottle today because we're sensible. I don't really drink these days, but I do like a red. Nah, yeah, it's top.

I remember when you're fully like in the flow of your pod. I'm glad you're getting it back now. Like, you'd be getting stopped and shit. Like, I remember when we go to Soho House Barcelona. Yeah, you get like 5 people come out. I was like, damn, this is fucking sick.

Yeah, small audience but deep committed culture. For sure. So coming up to the end of 2018, I feel like it's a similar pattern to me, like the whole traveling and stuff. Like, did you have many founder friends? Because Connor wasn't a founder at that point, right?

No, he was trying a few things, but he hadn't had a breakthrough, so he was kind of going in between. I think he also had a job at the time, but also was like, you know, crips. Good. Yeah, oh yeah, also doing some, you know, trying some dropshipping stuff, and then obviously he's tried a few different like vehicles. So end of 2018, so go to Bali for 2 months and meet a load of people. Shout out Chris Jenkins, you know.

Oh, fuck me, OG.

Connor Caroon, all these guys, you know.

Caroon, shout out, I miss that guy.

And then yeah, December 2018, I come home and then obviously I've got the bug for it. I'm like, okay, I have to, I have to leave here, like I can't stay at home. So January— so sorry, before that, December, obviously Rohan makes a group chat with me and you and he's like, yo, you guys are like the only 2 e-com guys from the UK that I know.

So you'd met Rohan in person in Bali? Yeah, so chance.

Well, so actually I met him in dojo, then he said I'm hosting a mastermind.

He was good mates with Karun, right?

Yeah, yeah, they live together. Yeah, yeah.

So again, so in Bali or Ireland?

Oh no, they met in Ireland, I think.

Right, okay.

And again, like, this is just like the fucking value of just having some balls and doing something right. So like, like, I was, you know, 19, I was in Bali, went to these co-working spaces, met Rohan. He was like, listen, a bunch of e-com guys are coming to my crib, it's not paid, it's just come through and, you know, we'll just discuss pain points and goals and stuff. Yeah, and you know, I was like the youngest by far, maybe more like 26, 27. And then I was like, damn, these guys are lit. Like, I actually really— I love this. So I stayed behind. I was like, do you guys want to get dinner? And then I went for dinner with Rohan and Connor. And then in like, just by chance, they had a spare room. Like, yo, by the way, do you want to move in? I was like, fuck yeah. So then I'm like fully immersed in this world of my other founders. And then we became friends and we'd go out a lot and stuff. And they were a lot older— well, not a lot, sorry. That are like a few years older than me, 3 or 4 years, yeah. But they also had, you know, it's just more adult experiences of like, you know, dating, going out, you know, approaching girls and stuff, you know.

Yeah, genuinely, this was so into like cold approach. Yeah, like Valentine for sure.

Like, I don't know, this is, this is such a valuable for me to see this stuff because I had no idea about this shit. So anyway, so then spent some time with them and then obviously became friends with Rohan. He knew you, obviously I didn't know you. He made the group chat.

I think I knew him probably just from maybe Bali online groups. Yeah, small world.

Yeah. So yeah, and then I went home in that December 2018. I messaged you, or you messaged, whatever, maybe in the group chat. And then we said, all right, January, let's, let's link up if you're in London. Went to go Covent Garden, got the dinner. And then Thai dinner. We were both pretty like, even though I'd only really traveled to America and Bali We were both keen for something bigger and like actually locking in, but I remember we have that conversation and then you went to America and you had some insane trip with Smythe and that.

I remember. Oh wow, yeah, March 2019 with Eddie Cranswick, Jordan Smythe, Tim Corwell. Fuck me. Yeah, that was it. That was honestly the most legendary trip I've ever been on in my life. Yeah, there was some fucked up shit happened on that trip.

I remember seeing that.

I was like, that's as well, I think, and maybe a few others, but Yeah, driving a Rolls-Royce Dawn drop top with a fur coat and a black hound.

Go at a time through like some hood. Insane. Yeah, just peak fucking, you know, so goated.

Yeah.

And then I went to Australia for 2 months, but then in the meantime we were messaging and stuff and we were both like, listen, let's just fucking get a gaff in London. Obviously we're still— we still want to travel and do stuff, but let's lock in.

Have you needed a base? Didn't we? Yeah.

And we— I don't remember, we referenced the Sidemen of like, let's do this but for e-com. Yeah, and let's have a scaleless house.

It's actually quite unique at the time, I think.

Yeah, for sure, 100%. Especially for anything outside of Bali and stuff. I think for like a first world city like London or whatever, then, then I think it was, yeah, it was like new. And then we did that, I think March, April, we moved in with Doyle.

Shout out, April 9th, 2019, to be precise.

April 9th. And I remember you sacrificed going Coachella to set up the gaff.

Yeah, I built fucking IKEA furniture. In this muse house. It was quite random actually. It was probably like arguably not a great logistical location, but I just watched Made in Chelsea and was like, I want to live around there.

Yeah, no, it's so sick.

So it's just between King's Road and Kensington High Street, I think. Yeah, yeah, beautiful part of London if anyone knows it. But yeah, I have my green Audi R8 in that garage and the next door neighbor would fucking scream at me every day I cold started it. Yeah, I was just so dumb.

I was like, I didn't think I want to park on the road, so I'd reverse it down this cobbled street Yeah, no, and this, honestly, this chapter of life of like, okay, going from the more nomadic, then going to live with you, this is where again another massive part of my journey. So I have to give my flowers to you because you were also the first person I've ever heard say I want to make £10 million and like actually get an exit and create a serious brand with Midnight City. And then you had the insane car and I was like, holy shit, this fucking— this is insane. Like, it really like made me think bigger. And you were having bigger conversations. Like, you were by far out of us three the one thinking the biggest, the most ambitious.

And who's the third?

Doyle.

Oh shit, Seb.

Yeah, yeah, Seb.

Fuck, um, I've seen him for years.

Yeah, no, and, and that was like a massive turning point for me too, of like, okay, I want to take my life more seriously, or my goals at least more seriously. And like, I know I can create— I've got something cool with Sanucci, you know, doing quite well. It's super lean.

Is it still a dropshipping brand at that point?

That point it was.

Because I remember, I think I'd like, I'd been doing dropshipping stuff before, and then I'd started Midnight around that time, actually maybe 6 months before, like summer '18. And it was actually like a proper brand. Yeah, I had a head of Sunitra in the sense that it wasn't dropshipping. Yeah, yeah, I think. And James and James for filming, I got you onto them.

Yeah, you got me onto them. I'm sure you got me into loads of other stuff, like, um, and you're doing collabs with big influencers like Jay Alvarez and stuff, you know. And that, yeah, and that girl, you did a collab.

Yeah, she unfollowed me. That JL Rez thing, wow, I forgot about that. I paid him 50 grand. I think we had about 90 grand in the bank account. It was so dumb. It didn't work.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, just like experiencing it. Yeah.

And like, honestly, seeing you made those bold moves and there's just, you know, like your way you wanted to take Midnight City, I was like, wow, this is, this is insane. I want to do this, the same thing. And that's when I started thinking about Sunuchi more differently. And, you know, you introduced me to James and James. That's when I changed from dropshipping to like actually—

How big was Sunuchi then? Roughly, maybe £100, £200 a month.

Yeah, I think about this, a few grand a day for sure, like even £150, maybe, uh, quite profitable, you know. I can live in London and enjoy and stuff. And then, but another turning point was when you were like, okay, I want to— let's go China. And that was a month or two after we, we moved into London, June 2019. Yeah, so goaded. Like, that again, that was another life-changing trip of like just seeing, just seeing like— Rex, shout out Rex, bro.

Like, who's the boss of that place? Joe. Joe, the guy didn't speak— Michael didn't speak English, but he was the boss.

Yeah, we've had a fucking hell. That was like— and I know like even I'm hopping on it a bit because I do some China content, but this is what— before China was trendy, like this was like 2019. Like you go there and it's kind of like fucking scary at the border, and you go into cabs and it's like this crazy music and no one speaks English. Yeah, you know, all this stuff.

I had that mental green leopard shirt, you remember that? Yeah, Panther shirt, sorry.

And we had almost like licked off night of all time.

Yeah.

And, you know, with the locals and that is goaded. Um, but again, this was another big step of me being like, wow, this— I need to take this more seriously because I actually, uh, one of my suppliers came to see me at the hotel while you were seeing your suppliers. I remember this is like serious.

Yeah, yeah, because you pretended you were working with me, right? Yeah, because otherwise they wouldn't give you the hospitality.

Yeah. And I don't think I could have got the visa maybe as well.

Yeah.

Um, so that's when I was like Wow, again, this is just another step of like actually creating a real business. And this is what really excited me because, like I said, like even just things throughout my childhood, I was like, I've always been attracted to greatness. And just to give you another, like, like, hopefully this is relevant, but growing up, my, my idol was Cristiano Ronaldo. Yeah, like, like, seriously was. And again, like, all the things— I was so lucky to have him as an idol because he really would inspire me about discipline, thinking big. Greatness, you know, thinking beyond. Just like, you wouldn't be satisfied with scoring a hat-trick, you know, you wanted 4 goals. And the kind of— that's always been a pattern throughout every year of the, the life doing business as well. And particularly that year as well, where I was like, okay, I'm doing quite well with the, you know, the nomadic, like, dropshipping, but I know I can do something more seriously. So these moments with you and going to China and beyond, you know, this is like was very important for me.

At what point did it go from dropshipping to not dropshipping? Oh, it's gradual.

2019. So about 6 months after. Yeah, so it was a good almost 2 years of like pure lean dropshipping. And then yeah, order the stock. And I remember actually we were in August 2019, we went to Bali to do a trip with Smythe and Tim.

Yeah.

And at that time I was ordering after China, and then that's when I'm ordering all the stock, you know, taking big risks. Well, that's a decent cash, but I'll still, you know, actually ordering a lot of stock, you know. These chains aren't cheap, you know, for like a big Cuban or whatever. So yeah, then just before Q4, October, I was like, gassed. I could order, you know, offer next day delivery. The quality improved. I actually had packaging, you know.

Yeah.

So that's when it became a brand. And there were some custom designs that you can't get off AliExpress. And that's the first taste of like, I've got a real business here.

Yeah.

So Yeah, end of 2019 is when Sunuchi became an actual—

what was the team like at that point? What would it look like day to day?

So I had my sister working, £10 a day, shout out to her. Then I had, um, somebody in the Philippines, VA, maybe two. And then my friends, like I said, were the models. And ad hoc, you know, just like come and I'd film it, I'd film it, edit it in iMovie, I'll do the ads. Um, honestly, actually, something that held me backwards, I was a control freak for way too long. And I actually didn't delegate and hire a team soon enough. Like, I was doing decent numbers and I'll do— I'll be— my days would be so busy just doing shit. So even until then, I think I was still doing a lot. I mean, that moment, I don't— I can't imagine. I didn't have anyone on payroll or anything, but yeah, in terms of an actual team, like, it was VAs still at that point. I didn't have anyone in the UK apart from my sister, but you know, a bit different.

Was there a moment during 2019, because I remember I've got a moment in mind, I'll let you say something and maybe it's the same thing. Like, did you ever spend any money on yourself at this point? Um, actually, you never flash.

No. Yeah. And you, again, you—

I was more, even though our businesses are probably similar size.

Uh, you, you inspired me to actually spend first good money, but also it wasn't a waste because it was a watch.

Yeah.

But I remember, I'll never forget when again, bro, we're whipping around London in your green R8. So goated.

Yeah.

Then we went to the fucking National Museum or something.

Yeah.

And then we parked up South Ken. It was so beautiful. You had a Rolex, right? Yes. I mean, the Rolex was in Bond Street, but yeah, yeah, that's your thing. And then you had the, the Rolex, and I was like, fuck, man, it's so sick. And I was aware that you don't really—

just like everyone, fluted bezel. Yeah.

But then, you know, um, and I was like, All right, fuck, man, I need to, you know, like, I think it's a good time, you know, it's not going to hurt too much and stuff like that. And then we went and then we tried some on on Bond Street, Old Bond Street, and then I was like, all right, let me come back next week, I just want to think about it. And then we went back and then got it. And that was the first time I've spent any money. Yeah, it was after 2 years.

It was a rose gold and stainless fluted bezel Datejust with the Presidential Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry much.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's like the OG. Yeah, man, that's legendary one. Like, you know, give that to your son type thing for sure.

In 2019, I feel like 2020 was a super legendary year. What was— because another thing actually, I remember we were moving out of Ensor, so we're only in there for 6 months, you, me, Seb, and then he went to LA, I think. He still lives in Hollywood now. I need to catch up with that guy. I need to come on the pod and explain where all that fucking money's coming from because to me it's not quite adding up. Um, I think I went back to York for like a month or two. It was in December. I think our lease ended in like October maybe, and then December we moved into B151, which was you, me, and Goose— what, Connor Caroon, for anyone who doesn't know— who was Rohan's mate that you lived with before. So I guess it was a similar thing. We linked up with him. I didn't know him at the time, but I remember me pushing us to go live in this fancy penthouse. Yeah, which was in Ambassador Building. Um, in Embassy Gardens. Fucking legendary. But you were like, I don't want to spend the money. And I was like, oh, come on. I think it was like 10 grand a month rent. It was a lot of money, but it was between 3 of us, right? So relatively, it was like our office. It was fucking sick. And we moved into B151 and then 152, which is next door, because the landlord sold it or something. But like, the sickest view of London.

Insane. And again, like, this is where I have to give credit to you, because that was another step of like evolving and elevating. Like, even spending that amount in rent Yeah, like, fuck me, you know, you gotta lock in. Like, you can't just— you can't waste the opportunity now. So yeah, you, you convinced me. I was in Brazil at the time and you were like, yo, let's just do it. I was like, fuck it, let's go. And then again, so that was end of 2019 going into 2020, and outside of COVID that, that like—

shit, I forgot about COVID—

that, that gaffe was like, again, that's insanely life-changing thing for so many reasons. Yeah, not only because we were so locked in and we're, you know, just being in that space like super inspiring, but also socially, I would have house parties.

That New Year's Eve party 2019, it was a legend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that.

The view, the views from that place, I still remember. It was like December 5th or something. I'm really autistic with dates. That's when we moved in at the end of 2019. Remember walking into that place? I think it was unfurnished originally, then the landlord was going to furnish it when we actually moved in, and it was like the most insane experience. Yeah. And you can never feel that again because once you're— once you've had something like it's never as exciting for sure, but I remember that distinctly with the fucking spiral staircase and all the neon signs. Neon signs, neon beach.

Yeah, yeah, the neon beach, bro. Like, then the neon signs, the music we'd play, the Macro Meals. Yeah, yeah, like there was so much going on.

Tom from Macro Meals. Yeah, I'm going— I've not thought about that for about 5 years.

Yeah, I don't even know. Like, like you said, man, it was a legendary era, and that was again another huge step in evolving myself and the brand. And, uh, and yeah, like, and then COVID happened and that was a whole nother, whole nother thing. But like, yeah, man, I remember that was when you started Neon Beach. And fuck me, I will never forget when you were telling me the numbers after 2 or 3 months. I was like, wow. And I actually remember one thing. Sorry, what's that band from UK called? 19-something?

The 1975.

And you said, uh, they were going to work with you or something, or or their managers were.

Yeah, yeah. So there was going to be a— fuck, I forgot about that. I went into Universal Music in Kingston.

That was at Universal Music.

We wanted— we're looking at doing a tour collab with Billie Eilish and the 1975. I couldn't fucking believe it. And I was still running Midnight Sea at this point. Yeah, obviously what happened later was another story, but yeah, that was insane.

Legendary.

Didn't happen in the end because of COVID Yeah, primarily.

But yeah, yeah. And seeing you do that as well, that was like fucking insane for me to just think bigger again. Um, and yeah, obviously that gap—

the Sanucci had a mega year in 2020, right? Yeah, a lot of brands did because of the COVID headwinds, but I think you what, 5x or something from memory?

Yeah, for sure. That was my first time doing a million per month and stuff. Yeah, again, I was super lucky to be ready for that moment too, where we were an actual brand as well. Like, we actually had custom product and we actually had, um— so it's— I'm kind of lucky that before the brand became big enough to be known a bit. Yeah, that it was a real brand, it wasn't just dropshipping. So yeah, like, yeah, it was obviously fulfilling from the UK, had some custom design, quality was good.

It was all UK at that point?

Yeah, uh, actually, sorry, 70% UK, 30% US. Only these two, I didn't sell to EU really.

But all shipping from the UK?

Yeah, shipping from the UK.

Yeah, yeah.

And that was, yeah, that was, uh, what was the main thing driving that?

Just Matthew at the time? Yeah, obviously 2020 was less less expensive.

Yeah, actually, I think purely Meta, to be honest. Maybe 10% Google.

And the team was still smaller? Did it expand a lot during that time? So that's when Junior came in, right? But that was later, later on. Is that at least 2020?

Yeah, so mid-2020. Yeah, discovered Junior. So he was a massive part of the journey, obviously. So, um, he was a guy, a content creator based in Thailand, and we'd send him some products and gifting. At this point, we'd evolved a little bit beyond just ads, and we started gifting influencers and stuff.. And then we give this guy, and he's just come back with like the most insane videos, like 3, 4 videos for free, and it was just for product. I was like, damn, I need to lock in with this guy.

Overdelivering.

Overdelivering. So message him on Instagram personally from a personal account, like, bro, this content's amazing, uh, let's get on a call. And then yeah, we were FaceTiming each other. He's a bit older, maybe a few years older than me, but then obviously from the fucking penthouse in London, he was like fired up. Like, I mean, I was 21 at the time too. So he was like, what the fuck? And that's from that point we agreed just more consistent deliverables, spending, giving him like £400 a month or something, like 8 videos. That escalated every month to like more videos, more, more things, get onboarding more influencers for us and gifting it, getting more ads done and using his creatives and the creatives he was bringing us from the other influencers he knew from Thailand and from UK. That accelerated the brand because that's when my ad creatives really improved and that came through in the numbers. And, and the timing of COVID I was just pretty lucky. Yeah, by that time it was— Junior was working remotely, then I had a photographer based in Portsmouth. Shout out, Huon. Yes, and Barlow, right? That's it. Yeah, and he, he brought on some of his boys, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So shout out to those guys, man.

Uh, they were—

I think it's Portsmouth, but they're down from South. And they, um, yeah, like, uh, Huan came on as a photographer, and then he was— did some video as well. And then the boys came on as customer service, and some— again, Deeps was like the guy gifting Junior and these others.

Yeah. So how many SKUs were you at that point? Because I feel like there's a lot of complexity in e-com, but especially fucking— well, it changed later, which we'll get to, but just jewelry at the time, right? So a lot of SKUs though. Yeah. How are you managing all that? Because pretty fucking young and inexperienced, and as everyone is at the start, but you're running a £10 million, give or take, brand.

Yeah, yeah, the suppliers helped me a lot actually. So credits to my suppliers where they would help, um, and I still think I work with one or two of them right now as well, but they would also really help me with stock management and giving advice on like stock cover, which means assuming the— your stock keeps selling at this rate, this is how long— how many weeks left you've got of stock. So they'd also help me with that of like, listen, they'll be look at my stock levels in Shopify and say, you probably need more of this 20-inch chain or yeah, this 18-inch one. So that's where that we become more tactical with like, I don't just do one bulk order every week. It would be on a Thursday, it's like, okay, there's 20-inch are doing really well, let's order.

What was the best seller in 2020? Do you remember?

It would have been a tennis chain or a prong Cuban chain. Yeah, I start— yeah, it was like, it was like the heavy hip-hop stuff.

Because it wasn't iced originally, right? You moved into iced more. Yeah, it was iced.

We always had iced stuff, but like, at the start it was like plain as well. But the iced is what on the ads was performing best.

So I guess that was the funny thing, because technically we were competitors in a way, right? I remember some people would ask, like, we lived together, but I was running a jewellery brand as well. Yeah, but I guess it wasn't really direct because I always thought of you as a hip-hop brand, whereas I was more like J Alvarez, back. Yeah, minimal stuff, 100%.

I think we had different age groups, different vibes. So honestly, I never really looked at either. Yeah, whereas if you started selling tennis chains, I'm like, oh shit, you know. Yeah, that'd have been fucked.

Yeah, I was more against Crafted at the time. Shout out Danny Burke. They've obviously gone on, done way bigger things than I did with that brand. But, um, was there anything that really went wrong? So I feel like people look at the outside and go— I mean, with a lot of founders, but with you I imagine it's very prominent just with the growth— and think it's all perfect. And it was obviously going well, but was there anything in those few years, particularly 2020, with mega growth that just was a fucking shit show?

There was a few, uh, I'd say product issues I had where when we were growing and I wanted to fulfill more growth, I'd kind of onboard suppliers quickly and then I'd rush it and I'd onboard suppliers that had shit quality. You'd wear it and it would fucking go green and fade your skin. Like disaster for jewelry, you know. No, Greenex. Yeah, so yeah, so I had that issue like for sure, and that was a big mistake I made, was just rushing the growth a bit. By like trying to, you know, get more newness on without properly trying on samples. I'd approve samples based on a video rather than actually wearing it myself, going in the water, going in sauna. So all this stuff, and I made some mistakes on that, like definitely cost, well, like at least retention back then quite a lot.

Yeah, but 20—

in terms of 2020, that would be the main mistake because it was mostly a positive year with the luck I had with COVID I just made the brand like domestically fulfilled So, and then Junior, like, there's a lot of things that actually made it a great year. So I definitely had more challenges in the upcoming years of like growing beyond a more serious level, but in 2020 I'd say product.

Ever any cash flow issues in that year when you grew so fast, obviously like bootstrapped, or was it just so profitable and well managed? Obviously good margins help in jewelry.

Yeah, like, again, maybe to— it's a good thing and a bad thing, but I was still doing a lot back then as well. Like, I'd be involved in everything. Like, I was actually quite a bad delegator back then because I just have to be— just want everything to be perfect. So even then, with Huan and some of the guys in the UK and Junior, it was still really lean. So even though we'd become a stock fulfilled business, and by the time I decided to make it a stock fulfilled business, like, just prior, like, the year, I still had a decent amount of cash built up.

Yeah.

And like I said, like, obviously my main expense was the rent, but I'd only bought, like, a watch and Yeah, you weren't spending much personally. No, like I didn't really get a whip and stuff.

So yeah, I was always surprised by that. The first thing I ever went to is a finance supercar.

Even now.

Yeah, yeah, that's why you've never had a nice whip, even a whip full stop.

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, apart from that Volkswagen Golf or something. Yeah, VW Golf 2002. Yeah, first ever whip.

What's the best— what's the highlight of 2020, like in the brand or just in life?

Because I always look at 2020 as that was a fucking Like, yeah, there's so many things. I'd say to call out, like, personal would just be the house parties we used to have. And like, we'd meet so many sick people from that.

And lots of girls. Yeah, it's a lot easier when you've got a fashion brand like you. It's like, bring them in as like models. It's the perfect frame.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we like— obviously we had so much fun like that. We do sick parties, and even just hosting them, it was just like, it was lit, you know. And then, but for the business, it'll be just crossing a million pound a month. It was pretty gas.

When was that? Which month?

Uh, May, June, like pretty peak COVID time. Lockdown, for sure, lockdown where we couldn't get out. But like, like you said, the only thing which is also a good thing is it kept me humble, was like everyone was doing well. So it was like, it's sick, but I also seen other brands do it as well. So I was like, fuck's sake, you know, it's not that everyone's doing it. Well, a few people are doing it. But yeah, I'd say that would be the highlight. How about how were you for the— did you have any particular memories? Because obviously, like you said, it was a goated year.

I remember about that fucking Ferrari 458. Oh my God, I was just like, that was probably like pushing it a bit far. Like, I think that was a combination of— I mean, I was doing very well. I had Midnight Sea and Neon Beach, had the COVID headwinds, the cash flow is really strong. Obviously went a different way for me about 6 months later, but, um, yeah, that was— that one was insane. That was probably one I thought like, fucking hell, this is probably like a bit much. I had the black Range Rover and a Ferrari 458. I was just a petrolhead. I had some proper money.

The thing is, you've got a genuine passion for cars, like, I think, right?

Yeah, yeah, I do. 100%. I've had boring cars the past few years. I need to get something silly again. But yeah, I think that— yeah, I think it's just hard. I mean, I think that year can be beaten, hopefully, but I just think there's something about being that young as well. It's like hard to beat the fucking newness of everything because I even, like, you know, we were flying on like Amex points. I had, I think, 10 million Amex points at one point, which was like a UK record or something ridiculous because I had triple points during 2020 and I was spending across two businesses. But like the flying to first class to China, I think we did, I remember it's like for the first time and all shit like that. It's like really novel at the time.

Yeah, sorry, quick shout out to you again on 2019 was you— I don't know if you remember this, but I did get you back in the end, but you actually got me my first points business.

Oh really? I actually don't remember that.

You fronted it, you were like, don't worry, like get me back. I was like, damn, that's coated. And that was again for my first taste of— it's when we went to China.

Yeah.

But yeah, like you said, in 2020 we also did the same, like stacking up the— it was fucking, you know, different time, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah. So legendary. Like, you've done a lot of that stuff since, but just never as— yeah, never as cool. The first time of anything really is the best. So end of 2020, I feel like it's when a new chapter started. Um, you had some investment into the business for the first time. I believe it was around December 2020, right? From memory. I'm super autistic with dates. I don't know this better than you do.

Yep.

So, so I remember you going through a due diligence process. Yeah, it's been stressful as fuck.

Yeah, 100%. Now that was kind of fucked.

Um, how much can you share on that?

Yeah, so, so through my ads agency that I work with, and I still work for this day, so it's been a decent 5 years now, so shout out to them. Um, they—

Socialamp, or keep them private?

Yeah, sure. Yeah, Socialamp. Shout out to Socialamp. Um, so they at the time were running ads for a massive fashion group in the UK Yeah, and I'd been working with Socialite. I got introduced to them in London just from nightlife. Like, that was another thing. Just—

yeah, fuck, I forgot about— used to go to Tape all the time, right? Well, this type of shit. Yeah, like, is it Tape?

Uh, it was Tape. I think I met them.

Who is the— where's the one that—

and Tyler—

Dan worked at?

Libertine.

Sorry, Libertine was the one we used to go.

Yeah, that was the one. Yeah, shout out to Dan. He used to party. Yeah, yeah, that was good.

Um, but yeah, I actually love to go clubbing again, to be fair.

Yeah, nah, with that group. Yeah, yeah, so sick, eh? Um, but yeah, so like you said, 2021, met the— just through, you know, London, just met this, uh, this agency. And then we were working for a couple months and they were just, you know, impressed with the brand. And again, like I said, it was like me, super lean, I was really young at the time, and they were kind enough to be like, yo, you should meet these guys from Manchester, like insane, they're doing so well. They got like one, maybe the biggest fashion group in the UK, one of the biggest in Europe at least. Yeah. And, and you know, you should just meet them.

How did they know them?

Because they were running their ads.

Okay.

So this agency were also running their ads across a few of their brands.

Yeah.

And I was like, I mean, yeah, of course.

Spend must have been crazy for those guys. Yeah. I mean, especially back then.

I remember, yeah, insane. Like million pound a day, probably something insane. Like, like different markets and insane. So yeah, so then we go up and initially we became kind of friends because I got on really well with them. It's like family. And, and then kind of went through some of the Sanucci numbers as well. And then it took—

did you meet them with the view of potentially investing, or did you just meet them because they were interested and that was always a potential thing that might come out of it?

Exactly, yeah. It was like, damn, these are probably like— would be— will 100% be the most successful people I've ever met. And if they, if they like the brand, they might invest as well, which is really cool. And I wasn't even thinking about that. I didn't really know much about investing and getting investors on, but that's why it was quite nice because it was very organic at the start. Like, just come up, you know, let's get lunch. We had lunch close by their offices, had some chats, met the fucking gaffer as well, which is a scary but legendary experience for me.

I remember you telling me about meeting him. And going to his house in somewhere up north. Yeah, yeah, there'd been an interesting tale of that day.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was legendary. And so became friends, and then they also looked at the numbers of the brand, and then we explored investing like a minority stake. And after some back and forth, I went to Dubai to see them and then came back here, and then we're all in Manchester, and then went to the house, their house, and Got it done, and that was like a sick moment because they're involved. I was really happy to have them in my corner. They knew everything about supply chain, about all the stuff I was probably like a little less dialed on, you know, warehouse, freight, growing a team, the legal things I had to do, you know, all this stuff. Yeah.

So how heavy was that due diligence?

From what I remember, like pretty, pretty heavy, because honestly, like, it was very scrappy what I was doing.

But unlike a lot of dropshippers, you were paying VAT and shit, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was all fine. Yeah, it's all fine. It was just like long to collect all the data and all the information they needed, but got it done. And then that happened.

And who proposed that investment? Like, I mean, I guess it was them, but like, were they upfront that that's what was potentially going to happen, or did you think, oh geez, I want to get these guys involved, maybe I can propose it?

So the, the mutual friend who introduced us was actually encouraging me to like— by the way, you know, you, you can pitch yourself if you want as well, like prepare some numbers and show them because they might like it and they might want to invest. So I did that even for the first meeting. I just like had a one-pager of all the costs and the profit and the numbers and stuff. They asked me a few questions and it was like Dragon's Den on steroids because, you know, these guys are like levels above these people in Dragon's Den. Yeah. And then I was the absolute opposite, like I didn't even know what the fuck like a pitch deck was and stuff, you know. But, but in a weird way, they actually liked it because I came with a lot of innocence. I had no ego. I was like, just so, you know, just had my thing. I was quite young guy on the scene, you know, all the stuff. So yeah, that was 2021. They invested minority stake, and I just kept all the money in the business.

Like, they actually asked me, like, did you do that for the money, or primarily because you thought they could help, or both?

I thought they can help. No, because even they asked me, like, do you want to keep are you gonna— when we invest, are you putting this in the business or are you taking it personally?

Oh, they offered that?

Yeah. And I said in the business.

Yeah, it takes some balls.

Yeah, I just said fucking keep it in the business. Like, even this stuff, like, I didn't even— I was paying myself a grand a month, of course. I was living in a sick gaff in London, living on director's loan, right?

Yeah.

I mean, but, but yeah, no, I was like, I need to figure out because, yeah, I've always been pretty just focused on, on I genuinely have. I know I'm doing some content now, but I've always very much prioritized the business and the growth and trying to achieve more. And that was a decision I made with, you know, bringing them on and then keeping all the money in the business, fueling the growth. And, um, yeah, so that was, that was in 2021. And then some things happened throughout 2021 to evolve the brand, including licensing deals. So that was like—

yeah, I was going to say, like, how much did they have much input into 2021 when they were Honestly, my noisy investor, honestly, no, but, but I had the comfort of they were online whenever I needed them.

We'd have— I think we actually had board meetings. We did have board meetings.

Did they take a board seat? Yeah, officially. Yes, it became a director. Yes, someone from their group.

Yes. Yeah, yes, they did.

But you were still very much driving the thing completely.

Honestly, they weren't even involved in day-to-day at all. But they were there for like questions of product development, of strategically, and board meetings. We'd go for a lot and we'd just go through, and they had all the insight in the world because they're collecting all the fashion data in the UK, you know. They, they feel everything and they understand every single cost, all the freight, all the little—

Did you feel like you had a main competitor at that point? I'd say my main competitor in terms of ice, because I guess they would have been looking at it as well, probably. Yeah, like, like the whole market.

For sure. I mean, in terms of UK, not really. There was a few copycats which would copy the same name, but I'd say in the US it would be like GLD, GLD Shop, GLD, which would be ice jewelry.

And that's still around?

Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure how they do it.

Dan from GLD was the founder. He's quite public, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, I remember that guy.

Yeah, GLD. So that would be the main competitor. They're based in the US. And I guess Sonuchi, what we were doing was UK. We were like kind of doing the hip-hop stuff in the UK. And, uh, and yeah, so 2021 they invested, but like I said, it was very passive. It was just like whenever I needed them, I'd call, they were there, they'd help. And of course they'd still send me inspo and ideas for sure, but it's very much me and the lean team I had running it.

And didn't that put more pressure on it when they came in, or did you feel more supported and actually in a way less pressure?

Well, I guess what is a little different was I was genuinely friends with them. I would go on holiday together, and, you know, when in London, we'd go on sends together. And like, just almost like the most amazing guys. Like, I consider them incredibly like close friends as well.

Yeah.

So that's why it's a little bit different to maybe like a traditional VC or investor, because—

yeah.

And also, these are young guys too, and they're actively building fashion brands, um, even, you know, now. So that's why it's just a little bit Like, when I refer to them as investors, it's obviously investors, but it's just a bit different to maybe the traditional sense of what people—

At what point do you think they actually became friends? Because they're not friends on day one. It's been like, what, 5 years now?

Yeah, I mean, I guess honestly when the trust was built in terms of— because particularly at that level, it's very hard to trust people, let new people in— is actually when they invested and when they had a stake and when they recognized And almost when they recognize I let them in as well.

But that was still pretty early, right?

Yeah.

You feel like it was not just business from day one? Uh, that's kind of what I'm saying.

No, so I think the first couple months of like figuring each other out, doing due diligence and working negotiation—

was it a few months when you first met to when the transaction?

Yeah, yeah, maybe, you know, 3, 4 months.

Did you have any context on like what a good deal was at the time? Nah. Because I guess at the time it felt massive, right?

Yeah.

But you and I are both saying how like it's like almost like fuck all. Yeah, not that it's fuck all and it was a bad deal, but like just relative to how businesses have grown, your business in particular is much bigger than mine. Like now that probably wouldn't cover the wage bill for a month, right? Yeah, I mean, fucking yeah, maybe it would, but you know, it's like it would feel a lot less. Yeah, it's just funny how the goalposts move for sure.

And but I think again, I was like, what was tough was I really didn't have many people to talk about it, to talk to about it with, like advisors and shit. Yeah, like, you know, like even just amongst us, it was like me, you, and there's a few others we knew really.

Yeah, I had no context on anything about then either.

I think no one had actually built a brand, you know what I mean? And like, that's why I kind of had to think independently. And again, that's when my bigger picture thinking came in. Like, listen, I understand they're negotiating me, they've got all the leverage in terms of— they've done it, they create a billion-pound business, like multi-billion pound, uh, at the time. And I know they can help so much, and I know if I just, you know, take a little bit less right now, it's going to pay off in the future.

Yeah.

And that's the decision I made. So yeah.

How did you feel it tangibly helped in like the first 6 to 12 months after then? So for 2021, right, because it was end of 2020, I think. So 2021, like, how was the growth? Like, did they help a lot?

So what they changed my life or just development in was becoming a product person, not just a marketing person.

Yeah, because I think every founder needs to learn that.

100%.

Still trying to figure that one out.

Yeah, and we're at that point doing maybe £14 to £15 million a year, and it was all ads driven. Yeah, and it was like just the same bestsellers I had for 2 years, and I was riding it, and I was obviously lucky it kept that long. But, you know, maybe you'd have a slow week or a slow month, and they'd be asking me questions like, so what product have you dropped?

Yeah, especially in fashion, right?

Yeah. And I'd be like, I mean, fuck me, a pendant, like 2 pendants. And they'll be like, what? Like, this is not— you're playing the wrong game. Like, if you want to go beyond and get to, you know, multi-eight figures and get to 9 figures a year in revenue it's a product game as well, because once you've got them early, right? Yeah, I mean, fucking yeah, 100%. It's a stock and product game. You actually need the units and you need the, you know, to take gamble on the right product. And that was in terms of the— that year, 2021, 2022, they reframed me into thinking far more about product. And luckily, when Junior— by this time, Junior had come to the UK and he was very involved in social and content. Yeah, which made me have more freedom to actually think about product and development and looking at different designs and thinking about women's product. And this is the type of thing, thinking about other markets, and this is that bigger business thinking that made me beyond, uh, and even taking social media more seriously because this is, this is like the pivot, 2021, 2022, when I, I'd say went from being an ad brand to like an actual brand. Where, where we're not—

the team change in '21, like, do they have any input on that?

Uh, yes, they helped me hire first finance hire.

Yeah.

And then, and that they— and she actually worked from their office in Manchester, so that was great because she was around them, and it also gave them more visibility on everything going on, which is probably a good thing for me.

Yeah.

Then they're more involved, they're more thinking about it, and And then the rest of the hires I made, but I'd also always ask them, like, the thing is, I think what I guess if I say so, like, what I've done quite well is I've always been really open to learning, quite collaborative. Like, if I've got an idea to hire someone, or this is a strategy, I'd always ask them, like, yo, what do you think if we hire this buyer, or yeah, you know, these people? And they'd always give really amazing advice. So, um, so yeah, that by then it was very lean still, but I did have about 6 to 7 full-time staff, including junior, including Chloe, who worked in Manchester from their office in finance. And then I had operations who did the supply chain, the freight, and the warehouse in the UK. Had merchandiser who'd manage the stock properly.

Yeah.

And like keep on top of like units, keeping everything in stock. And a buyer who'd actually create, you know, support with product development, creating more stuff.

How was growth in '21 versus 2020? Obviously, like, it gets exponentially harder. I think you went over 5x in 2020. You wouldn't have kept on the same trajectory.

No, it wasn't. No, it's so strong. Uh, no, the, the growth wasn't as strong in 2021. It was actually more like foundation, saying, if I remember correctly, 10 to 20%.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

What do you think was the— was that when the football stuff started coming in?

2021, 2022?

Yeah, yeah. Because I know you— I think that's when you did the Sanucci nightclub parties, right? Libertine? Yeah, maybe '21, probably partly 2020.

First one was 2021. Yeah, and then we started doing them every year. But yeah, yeah, 2021 was the first time we dropped the licensed football pendants. Yeah, and then we started doing the nightclub nights with influencers.

It wasn't just the football, I think you gifted— was it Gunna a pendant?

Um, Don Toliver.

Yeah, okay, maybe it was later on, but yeah, around that time.

Yeah, 2021. And again, this is the first time we started taking brand marketing more seriously. And, and actually creating like a brand world and a brand vibe.

Didn't that stuff help? Was it just a perk of having more cash in the business? Because I'm like, I'm naturally cynical about a lot of brand stuff at like smaller scale. I mean, you weren't— obviously weren't small scale, but even in like Space Goods now, like I've got VC investors, which is definitely different. I don't feel like we're friends. I mean, I do to some degree, not the same level, but like there's always been a lot of pressure to like spend on brand and we're not as big as you by any means now, probably similar to what you were in 2021, '22. But like, did you think that was just like— did you see an ROI on that, or did you trust what they were saying? Actually, like, in the short term, maybe it was just more meta.

The thing is, it still was significantly meta, like it was at least 80% meta. But it was— the thing is, also the pain point of Ice jewelry is that it's fake jewelry.

Yeah.

And like, some men might be ashamed to wear it.

So even though like 1% of the population would even— 0.1% would pay 50K for a chain, it's just ridiculous.

100%. So like, so in terms of, in terms of to help our digital, to help the brand, if A Boogie's wearing it or Don Toliver's wearing it and we throw parties and like all the baddies are wearing it and stuff, you know, it's like, yeah, I'll fucking wear this brand, it's sick.

Yeah.

So as much as it, in terms of like, we track more brand marketing based on the views as well and the CPM. Compared to other channels. But at that time, like, it undoubtedly would have helped our ads, you know, if we plastered it all over our socials, on our website, on emails, and people see fucking hell, like, the next time they see an ad, they might take a chance with us because, you know. And also, a significant amount of the population don't even buy from ads. Like, a lot of people don't even buy from Instagram ads. Like, if you're— if that's the only way to convert someone, like, there's a— it's a whole journey someone has to go on, especially jewelry. It's a luxury.

I honestly think in 2021, or around that period, like, I don't think anyone had more aura than you in London. Like, I don't even mean to lick your ass, but like, the brand was like the most— in London especially, in like that circle, that was just fucking insane. Like, footballers, nightclubs, that is what you say. Yeah, I feel like you didn't lean into that enough. You probably did it correctly. If that was me, I'd have fucking like got a Wraith or something. Yeah, I even put you in touch with Dean from Redline Specialist Cars, who now runs, um, DMB. He's a fucking legend in the car space. I bought a few cars from him back in the day. I think I put you in a WhatsApp group to buy like a Rolls-Royce. Yeah, I could tell you just was uncomfortable about it. Yeah, you just said, I don't want to do that, focus on the business. Yeah, you know what, which is probably the right decision.

Yeah, interestingly.

But do you not think you could have done more of that?

100%.

Flex a bit more.

And even like, I look at— you've also got some OG content. Ben Francis has got a lot of OG content. And I think, fuck, man, George Heaton, George, he had the, um, Rolls-Royce. Yeah, like all this OG content of like just building those moments. And you know, I'd do some sick party or I'd do a collab with like England. Yeah, I didn't even do a post. Yeah, I could have done, you know, because you're quite anti-personal brand then, right?

Yeah. Or maybe anti, you just weren't thinking about it.

Yeah, I guess I just wasn't thinking about it. Yeah. And I thought it was a bit of a distraction and whatnot. Yeah. But I do, like, the market's changed, to be fair.

It was less accepted then.

Yeah, it was more like, if you do that, you're a guru. Yeah, I agree, kind of. Yeah, but nevertheless, like, I think that could have been— it wouldn't have hurt at all to just post a bit more, document a bit more, like, film stuff. Because yeah, those moments, it was like, it was— I was definitely doing stuff which is a bit more pioneering. Yeah, like, I'd say these football clubs is maybe the first, like, brand to do this type of thing. With football teams, and then obviously the influencer parties were sick when like Ardy and Tion Wayne were performing.

Yeah. Um, how did those— I feel like the football stuff was like the most unique thing at the time. Like, which was the biggest one in terms of Arsenal?

Arsenal.

Which would have been good to do that this year.

I know, man. Yeah, we had so many DMs saying, you'll bring it back, bring it back. But the ones you can imagine would do well did well. So like Arsenal obviously like London-based, quite fashionable fan base. PSG.

Yeah, cheers, bro. I don't know if you drank or— I've gone. Yeah, who is it? PSG, England?

Well, I had 17, so I'll be honest, like 17, 17. So I'll admit, 1-7.

Yeah, that many clubs. Yeah, fucking hell, I thought it was like 4.

No, no. So I did— I'll try and list them off, but some of them flopped. I'll tell you which ones flopped and which ones did well.

Is it the same like economics and all that?

No, no. Arsenal was the most expensive but worked the best. So Brazil, England, Portugal, Spain— these are like national federations, like insane, bro. I'll be on calls with them saying, yeah, I've got an office in Paris. The first one though, Borussia Dortmund.

And did that get you in the door with the others?

Yeah, yeah. So once I had cads of those, yeah, that's when I'd spam everyone else and I'd find their emails and stuff saying, yeah, I've just signed Dortmund and Arsenal, you know, let's talk about this. Like, it's a new— I'm a new upcoming brand.

Did you leverage the investors at that point to help with getting in the door, or is that never part of the conversation?

Never. No, they would have seen it a part of the due diligence, like when they asked for like shareholding or cash position, like that's when I would have mentioned it to give them some safety.

How did the best version of that deal— you said was Arsenal?

Yeah.

What were the economics of that? Like, was it just a commission, an affiliate deal?

Yeah.

So pay for upfront or what?

So something I learned after the first year is that how it works is you you give a proposal on— you want these products, right? So for example, an Arsenal pendant, and I'd say this is the forecast. I forecast we'll do a million quid in one year, and the standard for almost all of them is 15% of net sales after VAT and stuff. Yeah. So what they do is, okay, so you'll say you're going to do a million pound, so after, you know, VAT, 820K, you pay us 15% of that upfront.

Yeah.

So that'd be 120K.

Yeah. So that's before you've got any sales for anything and before you bought stock or anything.

And I got a bit fucking excited, so I started telling all these clubs we're going to do insane numbers. And like Arsenal, I was the most excited about because I knew that would be the best one, and luckily it was. And England and Brazil as well.

Did they post it or you just having the rights to use it?

Right, to use it?

Yeah, that feels like less strong.

Yeah, but we could rinse it on ads though. And you can target Arsenal.

And you could say it was like official. Yeah, they had the rights.

Yeah.

Did you get players posting it?

Uh, we got players wearing it, the English, gifting. Yeah, gifting.

Who's the best one?

Uh, Saka, Declan Rice, Jack Grealish, Gabriel Mag from Brazil and Arsenal.

Were they posting it though?

Uh, Gabriel did.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was the Euros. Um, and Sterling as well. Sterling, shout out to Sterling, man. He's like indirectly plugged a lot of the England players with Sunuchi because he wears it and he was happy to wear it.

You ever meet him?

Yeah, got a dope story actually.

You want to tell it?

Sure. I mean, so this is again, this is like end of 2021, 2022. Yeah, so I was on Sunuchi Instagram, get a message from Sterling saying, yo, I remember this actually. I'm in, I'm in London, I'm at this hotel, I go Jamaica tomorrow, so if you guys have got anything, I'd love to— I love your jewelry. He been a customer before, like, oh Uh, yeah, I believe we sent him some stuff before. The DM was open, I think. So I was like, damn, like, if you— yeah, if you guys are free to come to the hotel room, slide through. And, and I was like, oh shit, that's so sick. Like, that's when I called Andy because I think Andy had some mutuals with him. Then me and Andy went down, we got like— I just brought as much jewelry as I could, chilled in his hotel room for a bit. And which hotel? Uh, it was the Strand, me you know, the me host. Yeah. Um, and yeah, pulled up, chilled for a bit, gave him the jewelry, and, you know, didn't ask for a picture or anything, was like super chill about it. And then he wore it his whole holiday. We gift him stuff. He didn't tag us, no, but we reposted it and it did really well. Yeah. And we posted, you know, obviously—

I think a lot of those players can't tag because they've got agreements with like, you know, sports brands that would then say that's like competitor or I think jewelry is fine, to be honest.

I think they can tag it if they wanted, um, but you know, it's still fine. We still rinse the content on our own channels. And again, you know, it just really supports that whole thing of like ice jewelry. If Sterling's wearing it, what are you gonna say? You're not, you're not comfortable wearing it? You want to spend fucking 20 bags? No one gives a fuck. It's fine.

So how long did that football pendant period go on for? 2021. Why did you stop it? Because you don't do anymore, right?

No. So we, we extended a few and we did wholesale for Arsenal for a long time. Where they're selling it in their Emirates store. But the actual contracts were like 2021 till 2023, some were 2024. And then, and then it felt like for me particularly, we'll get into it, but when we started doing clothing was, I just don't want to be the football jewelry brand. So if we rinse it for too long and it's on our ads for too long and we post about it too much, it's going to bucket us in this like category of, you know, it's gonna be hard to grow women's clothing, for example.

Yeah.

So So like, it kind of was a decision which I think is valid, and it was expensive and it was a gamble, and every year it lost its edge a bit. So, so yeah, decided like, we gotta move on. It was an amazing time, gave us, you know, it definitely pivoted us from being a bedroom brand to like, shit, these guys are legit, you know. As soon as you're doing a cab at Barcelona, yeah, that was fucking insane.

Yeah.

So yeah, that was, uh, yeah, started in 2021, ended 2023, 2024.

Yeah, but before that, in 2021, the investors came in at the end of 2020, right? And they came in again, I think it was end of 2021.

Yep.

I feel like I know these days better than you. Not dates, but yeah, sorry, when I look back it's actually all a blur.

But yeah, yeah, around this.

Yeah. And they bought a larger chunk of the business, right?

Yep.

And you did take money off the table at that point?

Yes.

How was that? How did that come about? Was that something you had because you were what, 23 at the time-ish, around that, 22 maybe even. 22. It was so funny because at the time we lived in the same place and my business had just gone into administration. I was like, ah, fuck, we've gone opposite ways.

It was so deep.

It wasn't deep, but I remember thinking, I fucked it. But I was obviously so happy to see you crushing it. I mean, we went to, um, Novikov, I think. I remember to celebrate. Well, maybe it wasn't directly to celebrate that, but it was that around the time. It was January '22. My brother was there. Yeah, Tyler was there, Jack was there. Fuck me, I've got a good memory.

Yeah, she did.

Yeah, he did like a speech or some shit.

Yeah, it was good, man.

Yeah, but how did that come about? Because a year, it's not that long.

Yeah, so obviously they're happy with just like, even though it was slower growth, they were still happy with the stability of the business and how it was doing. And I think they recognized that as a men's jewelry brand, it's actually a very strong brand. And even though it's not like fucking 50 million, whatever, it's like a lot of people knew about it and it was, you know, recognized.

It was a well-known brand for sure.

Yeah, it was well, well recognized. And they, um, they were like, they, they thought they had a strong potential to do clothing as well. And of course, that is their game. That's what they know best. And that is, you know, they're the masters of the game, particularly in the UK and Europe, and obviously massive in the US as well. So they approached me saying, listen, do you want to do something big? Do you want to go massive with this? And it's going to come with some sacrifice. You know, we're going to come in, we're going to go big, and we want to buy more. But, uh, it's going to mean that this has potential to become a global brand. You're going to do menswear, womenswear. We can take this to however far you want.

What was your gut feel when they said that?

I was honest.

Was that out of the blue, or had you seen that coming?

It was out of the blue. I got called to Manchester.

And when was this? How soon into the initial investment? Was it mid-2021? Is it near the actual deal?

No, near it, nearer, because, because they already done the— like, in terms of shaking hands, telling accountants and lawyers, it was very quick because they, they're already invested, so they— the due diligence was almost done.

Yeah, it was the same when we did the second VC round.

Yeah, yeah. So it's very quick actually. Yeah. And I'll be honest, so pitch me the idea And, and then how did they pitch it?

Did they pitch it as you're going to get a chunk of money, or did they pitch it as this can be really big, or both?

Uh, actually, even though it was, you know, it was like a good opportunity for me to get good money, the, the pitch was vision. And it was about, listen, we— you have to— and they were actually very realistic with me too, that the fact that they are going to be more involved, it's not going to just be you fucking running it. And, you know, we're going to help as much as we can and going to put more team members in. And we'll get into this, but they're gonna, you know, be just be more involved and gonna grow the categories and try and create this as to be a global brand, multi-category and stuff like that. But, uh, yeah, we wanna, we wanna come in, so think about it and let us know. And I'll be completely honest, this, um, it was like very exciting but also quite overwhelming. And it was actually the first time— I mean, classic— but first time in a long time I'd actually really like cried. And that—

that told me this.

Yeah, that night when they pitched it, or no, after, shortly after actually. I was just in a room and I was like, cried in front of them, or, um, no, but then one of them came and saw, but A sad cry, or like, just, fuck me, what's going on? Yeah, probably that, because it was actually like, again, it's a very unrelatable situation to like anyone I could speak to, and I really had to think about it myself.

And how did they pitch it? They say, we want this for this, in terms of a number and a percentage?

Yeah.

Was it just, that's the number, take it or leave it, or was it a negotiation?

Yeah, we actually, we did negotiate, and like that, the negotiation took about a week, but at first it was very much like quite an aggressive negotiation in terms of what I'd get, but the pitch was vision, future, what we're going to achieve.

Were they going to put money into the business as well?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was—

and they did.

Yeah, yeah, it was personal and, and the business, and it was just like absolutely turbocharge it and take it to the next level. And it's like a new project and it's a new, new birth for the brand, but it's to go global, is to be a serious player in fashion. Yeah, and that was the video.

And, you know, again, did the clothing appeal to you? But like, the money aside, the vision aside, did you want it to be Asanuchi's a jewelry brand, or did you always think clothing?

No, I didn't mind. Yeah, I was like, interesting. It was like a full circle moment because I actually started off as a fashion brand. Yeah, I only really pivoted into jewelry because it was working the best on ads. So interestingly, it was kind of 360 too. So yeah, um, so, so yeah, when did you agree that deal?

Was it in person?

Yes, in person. It took a week of back and forth every day on WhatsApp, on calling, uh, just going—

what were you pushing them on mostly? Just the number?

Yeah.

Did you feel like you had much leverage in that?

Yeah.

Or would you have pushed harder, like, now knowing what you know?

Um, well, I did know for a fact that they had been speaking with other brands as well, so that's one of which I know.

I don't know if we can share that. Probably not, but yeah, you do know for sure, which is probably good they didn't, right?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, um, it's probably others as well, but I know we spoke about that.

Yeah, now those two I knew about, and so I knew if I want to take this opportunity, then I want to be stern. I definitely want to get my value, and I feel like actually I'm happy with what I negotiated.

But you ever told anyone that number? No, I don't know the number. Yeah, um, Do you feel like that was a life-changing amount of money at the time?

At the time, yeah.

But I guess you weren't personally very liquid, right? Like most founders, the money was in the business. Yeah. So you had money, but it wasn't yours, so to speak.

Exactly. Yeah. And genuinely, up until that moment, I never even understood the concept. I know it sounds crazy, but I never understood the concept of personal money.

I think a lot of early founders don't.

Yeah, the business is mine, so it's like I learned that the hard way.

When the business goes under, right, you don't have much personal liquidity.

Yeah, so like the business money is my money. Like, I want to just, you know, draw a dividend or something. Like, yeah, whereas now, now there is genuine—

Did you tell your parents about that deal at the time, the specifics, or did they just know?

Um, yes, I didn't want to, but then I was like, it's such a life-changing thing, like it'll affect them as well because, you know, I don't mind saying they probably rely on this to do well. In terms of their whatever. So I told them about it, and yeah, uh, my mom was just supportive of whatever, but my dad was like, no, don't do that, don't do it. Why?

Um, you thought it was underpriced or what?

Well, I didn't tell them the number. Oh, I just told them the vision.

And like, you know, it's just classic, like they know the dynamics of like how much percentage they'd have. Yes, in terms of control and so on. Yeah. And that's why he said don't do it?

Uh, I was actually more so cynical. Yeah, it's just being cynical, like, I guess not being in that world and understanding. And there is some nuance when you are genuinely— I know business is first, like, for this type of stuff, but like, we are genuinely friends too. Like, I love to hang out and like, we do spend a lot of time together. So like, I also had that context where if I did tell others about it, they might be a bit more cynical of like, you know, don't get fucked and shit, you know. Yeah. Obviously they've got insanely more experience than me, a lot more resources than me. So yeah, I don't really consult too many people. Obviously I told you guys about it when we're at Flavors of Brazil, I remember, in Clapham. Yeah. And, uh, it was just something I said about that then.

I probably had no fucking perspective anyway.

But yeah, um, but yeah, yeah.

So now looking back, do you think that deal was fairly priced? I don't know what the number was, I genuinely don't, for anyone watching, but Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think, do you think Sinucci would be anywhere near where it is now had you not done that deal, in terms of them getting involved, put more money in, guiding it, etc.?

It's a little hard to, to predict because I, I think I would have gone into clothing, but nowhere near sooner, and I would have nowhere near as much experience or speed of doing it. But it's so hard to answer the question. I have no idea. I genuinely have no idea. I think I wasn't on a good trajectory, but my— in terms of my vision for like what I think potentially could, you know, if we sell Sanucci and what that could be, that definitely is bigger than— still, I think I could get bigger than what it would have been.

Yeah.

So potentially, you know, like if, uh, if I just continue doing it, maybe if I can draw more dividends and shit like that. But like, I still think for the grand division, it's, uh still very excited about it. And I think it's like, I'm gonna— yeah, hope I'm gonna be able to create a genuinely mainstream iconic British company that was founded here that everybody knows about and something I do really well from.

Yeah. Do you remember the day that the wire hit in the bank? Um, so everyone wants to know.

Yeah, weirdly I was at a 7-figure amount, right?

Yeah, we just don't know which side of the spectrum. It's enough, it's enough to buy a lot of watches.

Yeah, yeah. I was at a funeral.

At a funeral?

Yeah. Whose funeral? Uh, fucking tragic story actually. It's from, um, one of my good friends.

The dichotomy of that seems intense.

Yeah, it was from one of my very good friends from primary school and his mum committed suicide.

Oh really?

So yeah, it was a— I mean, to give you context, that was the day. That I got.

And excited or not?

I swear on my life I didn't feel anything.

And it's weird one because milestone though, you came from, you know, normal background, fucking worked in Waitrose.

Yeah.

You were 22, I think. Yeah, 22, 23. It's fucking young.

Yeah.

Especially when you're not like a footballer or a, you know, drug dealer, quite frankly, to do it legit.

Yeah.

I think that's pretty rare. Yeah, it's very rare.

Yeah.

But you just felt nothing. Any reflection, or is it just— do you think it already—

well, I think, to be honest, fully honest with you, with like— because I've— because I think by the time it's all happened and whatever, I've already got my eyes on the bigger vision they've— we've discussed. And I think we can get it to X, and it's going to be insane. It's going to be like legendary. So, and that, you know, it wasn't like— and I recognized too, I know it was a great— it was a good amount of money. It's not sorting me for life though. And that's what I recognized. The first thing I did was— supposed to move. Yeah, 100%. It's like, it's weird because it's life-changing, but not like— I don't know, it's hard to explain. Yeah, it's not, not for like, you know, like— and ironically, when you start hanging around with these kabik, this type of level of people, yeah, your taste changes and what you think is normal changes. And even though in some circles I might be the absolute baller. Yeah, but 90% of the time I'm like not. And that's been great for me as well because especially hanging out with them and some other, you know, some other guys, um, that— so even from that point, even when it hit, is that I'm still, still a small fish in the grand scheme of this entrepreneurial game, right? I'm not to say obviously the population of the fucking UK, but like, you know, so, so, uh, yeah. And then And then so the first thing I did was just sort loads of family stuff out with my mom, and that was like a beautiful feeling and stuff, to help, help out the family properly and give them more peace and more freedom and stuff like that. But then yeah, I got some watches, I guess.

I was about to say, you bought a lot of watches.

Bought some watches.

There's a new one every week. I was like, fuck it up, bro.

Yeah, no, um, yeah, happy with that. Happy that I like watches and stuff.

And then never bought a car. That was always weird to me. I guess you're not a car guy.

Yeah, the first thing I bought after anything else, I think genuinely, like, I've always looked at it as a kind of admin, you know. And because it's not natural to me of being a massive car guy, like, yeah, yeah, fair. I think, you know, it's particularly, for example, somewhere like Dubai, it's just so— it's like having a personal driver when you order Ubers around here.

Yeah.

And you can just get in the back and lock in, or just even just do other stuff. It's Yeah, I guess I've never had the thrill of like driving about, so I enjoyed it more with watches. Yeah, living in a sick gaff in London, um, and eating like just, you know, great holidays, great dinners. That's— I was happy with that. And taking family on.

Do you think you trusted people less after getting a big, big bag so young? Like even girls and stuff? Well, I think because I guess they wouldn't have known about that, but like they see Sanucci, right?

Yeah, honestly, I guess, yeah, if they knew Sanucci and then you as a founder and stuff, then potentially. But like, I still think I'm too smart to like fall for that shit. Like, in terms of the— if I— if someone's like— maybe there's such an ignorant thing to say, maybe I will get finessed at some point. I'm talking about with girls, but with, um with trusting people. I, I wasn't public about it. I barely had Instagram. I didn't have any YouTube. So only you guys knew, like, yeah, not really. Yeah, not many people knew what was going on. And so yeah, I guess I didn't— again, I was like lucky. I think in general, I think I'm lucky I've just done things quite slowly, and I'm very lucky I started early because I'm still young now. Despite, like, doing it. So I think there's never been— I guess, apart from—

do you think you'd have been more hungry if that deal hadn't happened and you were still, you know, personally relatively illiquid like most founders? What's the honest take on that? Because everyone says it makes no difference, but I guess, like, the urgency, the reality of you could go to zero is gone, right? Yeah. So it's a good thing or a bad thing to have liquidity young when the actual business is still early in its growth?

So I think you actually find out who you are, and I think we've actually experienced it on the opposite scales. And I know you've like also fucking drawn some decent bread out, like, uh, and stuff, so I know you're absolutely fine and whatever, as much as you, and I think— but, but with, um, I think there's two moments that entrepreneurs find out who they are, right? And you had one, which was you were the fucking— the guy, the baller, hella bred, fucking sick gaff. And then it all goes bankrupt.

It was fragile.

And that moment you find out who you are. If you fucking go again, go in the trenches, you humble yourself with some normal gaff, fucking whatever.

Yeah, it was a painful few years.

And that's like, obviously you fucking come out the other side. And then also when you— where what I went through was when you do get a bit of a win and you can either go soft or not, or like, you know, start slacking a bit and, you know, enjoying, go on holiday and go for dinner every night and date all the time. And that's honestly when I found out like I genuinely want to do something big because, yeah, a lot of people could just chill, but like, fuck this. Yeah, potentially. Yeah.

And, and maybe, I guess you contractually couldn't, but like mentally you could.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And it wasn't—

yeah.

And, um, I think that's when— yeah, I think again where I was lucky was hanging out with these people. Like, it's just levels, it's just like so far beyond what I got or I have, you know. So yeah, I can't rest or be satisfied when, you know, I hang out with these guys like I said and they've just got an amazing life. And not to say it's all about the material stuff, they actually are amazing people but they, uh, they really inspired me to think bigger too and, you know, try and achieve more and get to that level.

I think there's any ego attached to owning less because they're the majority shareholder now, right?

Yeah.

Is it a thing that's affected your perception of, like, ownership at all, or do you feel like ultimately it's a smaller slice of a much bigger pie?

Yeah, 100% that.

Yeah.

And I think, like, when— I think I completely when, um, when I guess when you speak with like more like young entrepreneurs who are maybe got amazing businesses and it's really lean and they're doing quite well, they can't even fathom that.

Whereas when you actually understand real business and like, you know, like stop being a goblin dropshipper.

Yeah, you understand, you know, that a lot of like even Steve Jobs, for example, you never own more than 30% of Apple. Yeah, like if you want to do something big, you need serious players involved. Sorry, I'll have a bit more.

Probably not drinking it. Yeah, I agree.

But like, I think there is a bit of a misconception of— I think if you, if you look at history and you look at some successful case studies of genuinely massive businesses who go, you know, get to serious level multi-nine figures valuation or whatever it is, there are of course some exceptions which are quite rare, which is amazing. But yeah, it's largely a few people involved and some people don't own more than 50% and that's what happens.

Yeah, I also think 100% of nothing is not worth very much, right?

100%.

There's a lot of people that, okay, maybe it's not nothing yet, but is it even exitable? Yeah, there's a lot of ego attached to that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I've gone down a slightly similar route in that sense, but there's pros and cons, right? I think your, your set is very different. Um, but I guess on that, like, obviously I've got VC investors, you've got, you know, similar but different. Um, but I imagine, like, are they set targets, like, which you feel accountable to hit? Like I mean, obviously they would have to a degree, but like, how much do you feel like you're shooting for a specific scale before maybe there's an exit or something? Or is it treated like we're in this and this is like a lifetime business?

No, no, under pressure for sure. And even—

I mean, was that clear from like day one of that deal that we want to get to X?

Yeah, yeah, with the timeline, you know, we're getting there, but doing a lot though. Yeah, doing well, doing well. But sorry, to answer your question, definitely under pressure. They're quite clear with like expectation on revenue, on profit, on what we want to hit even daily, which is sometimes honestly a little too much. But I like that. But 100%. And again, and you know what, like even just to go back to like being humble or not spending money or like not being too flash, I think they've really helped me with that in terms of that from the single day, for example, we did the second deal and it's like, this is the expectation every single day, every single week, month. That isn't right, you get hammered and have to improve it and stuff like that. And that kind of accountability and that, like, stuff has been amazing and I think been really useful. But it's been 100% under pressure. We've got targets, yeah, I want to hit this year. Yeah, there's expectation for sure.

Are you the one that fully holding— are you the buck stops with you, or are they Are you a part of a broader— do you feel like the buck fully stops with you now?

Um, no, no, we've got a group of directors who have come into the team, and actually as of 2 weeks ago, which has hired a CEO as well.

Oh really? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, let's talk about that.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, so we hired a CEO because you were the CEO up until now, right? Or no?

Yes.

And we've always seen you as more of a like creative director. Yeah, don't take that the wrong way, but like there's been a team behind running a lot of the other stuff, right?

100%.

So that's the thing, but officially you were still leading the business, or—

Yeah, officially, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we had a group of directors come in who they helped hire, um, and a lot of decisions recently, or way back, way back. Yeah, way back. And then we've been involved and we make some group decisions too. And obviously while I'm remote, it's kind of like, it's unrealistic for me to—

Do they have an issue with that?

No, because I'm in the office as well. Yeah, yeah, I do, you know, traveling for other stuff and shoots and being in Dubai and whatnot, you know. So no, it's absolutely fine. I'm on it 24/7. If someone messaged me any time of the day, I'm the same. So, so yeah, so it always kind of like making the decisions, but also for the office and like some more of the day-to-day, week-to-week stuff, you know, there's people in the office and directors who make decisions as well. Like, don't need me.

How'd the CEO come back? So I recently had a CEO as well. I'm probably way more public in our group chats and on YouTube than you are about this stuff.

No, so again, like, uh, this, uh, this person had been in the business for, for a while.

Oh, so it's a promotion? Internal promotion?

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, and like leading trade, leading product.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, it just made more sense. Also, he's got the personality and the skill set for this type of job. Particularly how we're growing, got very aggressive targets. It makes sense to have someone full-time in the office. And like I said, he must have been gassed about that, was he? Sure, I think he deserved it. He's amazing as well. Yeah, so, and that's like, does that mean you step out more?

Does that— what changes for you with that, if anything?

Definitely I'll be less involved in some more of the day-to-day, week-to-week stuff, and I can really focus on the brand, the marketing, the social, the content. The vision. And also I want to get more involved in product, which is, which is going to be exciting. I want to do more of that. But, um, yeah, I, I suppose just like what you would expect, I'm less involved in just like what the general discussions or meetings like. I'm now, I'm like pretty much fully focused on like that— the brand, content, marketing, social, the vision, growth. Yeah.

Do you like that? Would you ever like have a fantasy of like you know, leading everything again? You ever miss like the early days of like, you know, fully controlling everything?

I think, you know, I'm just like, I'm so aware of the reality of growing a big business. I think even spending time in their offices, seeing how many fucking people they've got and like what it takes to create a fucking real business. And I fully also understand that if I'm remote a lot and I spend a lot of time in China or abroad and shoots and even here in UAE and stuff, it doesn't make sense for me to, you know, be CEO or be that single point of decision-making internally in the team, particularly when everyone else is in the office. So I think, yeah, yeah, it works. I think it's going to be great, really excited about it. Um, and I think, yeah, I'm gonna have more time to do dope stuff, so I've no doubt it's going to help the growth. Be better.

You feel like you have the dream job in some ways, given you used to work in Waitrose?

No, I don't think so. No, I think it is—

you feel the pressure a lot?

100%, particularly as a solo founder as well. And I think— I know you're a solo founder, and that's fucked. And I know, like, honestly, like I said, credit to CEO, like, amazing and stuff. But, um, I think of course there is no one that cares as much as the founder. And I think particularly in fashion, when I look around at some of the successful brands and guys doing well and stuff, I think I'm almost the only solo-founded fashion brand in terms of, you know. And I— it's kind of— sometimes I'm like, damn, imagine having someone else like leverage 24/7, obsessed with it, thinking about it 24/7. All you want to talk about is it. And, uh, that Yeah, that's why sometimes, despite obviously got CEO and stuff, I still feel a lot of the pressure. And I understand, for example, like, touch wood, whatever, if it doesn't work out, then I'm the one who's gonna suffer the most. Yeah, because, you know, like, again, I know that, for example, investors put in a lot of money and stuff, but they're also—

they haven't put in their, like, soul.

No, I haven't been sold. And they're gonna be fine and stuff. And some, you know, the team can probably move on, find other, other careers as well, whereas I'm the one, you know, it's my identity, a part of my identity at least. Like, let's, you know, I know I shouldn't say that shit, but it is, you know. This is what I've done since I've been a teenager. It's what I'm building, I guess, my own personal brand off. So if, if it doesn't work, if we do miss the mark, if we start slacking if we stop slowing the growth, then I'm the one who'll get fucked and it will affect me the most. So to answer your question, that's where I do definitely feel the pressure. Still not satisfied at all and, um, still a lot to do.

Talk me through— that was like, what, 3 years ago? I guess we've kind of gone back and forth a little bit, but what's been the biggest changes in the past 2, 3 years? They came in, put money in, you took on a slightly different role, more professional people coming in, professionalizing the business, like the classic arc. You, I don't know, 4, 5, 6x revenue. How's that been over 3 years? Like, what's been the biggest changes?

Well, biggest changes, 100%, is more people and different personalities, different, like, even, you know, more senior people working people a lot more experienced, people have done it before. So I think learning to deal with different personalities, getting the best out of different types of people, it's been the hardest thing to develop. The hardest part, 100%, is the hardest part, I think. So learning to do that, and that's, uh, that's been, I'd say, the biggest change outside of obviously the product growing. Now we do menswear, womenswear, women's jewelry. We do a lot of offline, we do pop-ups and stuff like that to showcase these products. Starting to do wholesale. But in terms of my own personal, like, direct thing that I feel most, most involved with, or I'm not sure what the right word is, like, affected by at least, would be just, you know, went from like 8 people all working remotely to, yeah, you know, 40, 45 people based in an office, you know.

They were based in Manchester apart from you?

Uh, no, got a couple people in London.

Yeah, this kind of hybrid. Yeah, a bit of a split. The other thing I thought was pretty sick that we haven't spoke about yet was obviously working with big names like Foden. You're not still— what, you still working with him, or that was—

no, gifted him recently. But yeah, the actual collab was—

how did that come about? Because I feel like at the time that was around the Euros, right? 2024? It was, it was, was that the Euros? 2024? The World Cup's on now.

Yes, it was the Euros. Yes. Yeah, but the actual collab was mid-2023.

Shit.

And it ended just before.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so yeah, that was— we, we actually gifted him a few times and his missus as well, so he already knew the brand, he was already wearing the brand. And then speaking to his manager, so I was thinking of ideas to collab because he recently changed management and it was kind of rebuilding his personal brand and the type of collabs he wanted to do. And like I said, he was already aware of Sanucci. I think some of the team might have also been wearing it, like Jack Grealish and stuff. So that's why I think he would have been more like down to do it. And then yeah, worked out a deal to, to get a bunch of posts, do some content, create a custom collection with him. Two custom collections are with him.

So Madison's right, right?

James Madison back in the day. Yeah, got Lamine Yamal wearing us right now as well. Oh yes, Shakira recently.

Um, but is that all organic, all of those examples? As in like they—

not Foden or Madison Although beyond that they wear it organically now, but those two at the start were paid collabs. Shakira, Lamine Yamal, Kobe Mainoo, and you know, there's a bunch across the years that have been—

How do you meet photos? Like, was that— were you like nervous about that sort of shit, or by that point did you feel like, I'm a fucking baller as well, in a different way?

Yeah, 100%. I think, you know, like, definitely nervous before, but then also you kind of have to No, fake confidence at least. Like, when you're walking, waiting around, you're not there getting a selfie and shit. Oh no, no, no, no, for sure. But luckily, obviously, you know who Junior's personality— he'd be like, yo, yo, you guys get a pic.

Where was that, up to his gaff?

Or, uh, no, it was in both shoots were in Manchester actually. And you know, Junior's like—

so is that pretty viral video of you doing keepy-ups with him in a studio in Manchester?

In our office.

I was in the office. So your mum was there, is that right?

Uh, she was in it. She came to a different shoot.

Okay.

But yeah, that office clip was good. Yeah, because he came to the office to help design the collection and look through what we put together.

Yeah.

So yeah, we got some offers.

Did he do a collection? I thought it was just a year-long—

Two custom collections, jewelry design collections.

Oh, not clothing.

Yeah, it's just jewelry. Yeah. So, uh, but no, I didn't, uh, we got some pictures together, but Junior initiated it and was like, yo, you guys get picked. So yeah, now he's a sick guy, I love photo.

Which part of the business is bigger now, clothing or jewelry?

Clothing.

And do you think that's going to continue to become bigger and bigger to the point where, like, jewelry is almost just like an old thing, or is always going to be a prominent section of Synergy?

We are trying to crack the art of growing both categories because a mistake we made, particularly at the very start when we first introduced clothing, was we kind of went all in on clothing and growth of clothing shot up and then the growth of jewelry really slowed down because of focusing elsewhere. Yeah, because we're just spending all the content change and the marketing change and the socials and stuff like that. So, um, so yeah, it was like, I think, uh, yeah, at the start we got that wrong, but now like we definitely want to grow both categories and try and treat them the same and thinking about it a bit smarter now, like being less completely focused on the clothing, although it is the biggest— the bigger category worldwide in TAM. So as an opportunity, for sure, I've no doubt that is going to be the main feature of the brand.

And how about women's? Because that came in, what, a few years ago? Yeah, women's— a lot of brands don't crack that, and they represent Paul D, right? For example.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, to be fair, I haven't seen them do women's in a long time.

What was the thinking about women's, and did you think that was like a necessity? That was to go big.

To be honest, it was introduce both categories and let's just see what works. And then each collection we refine what the fits are, what the graphics are, what the handwriting is and stuff like that. And we got a breakthrough with women's, like we had a few products that fucking do so well.

From the start, was that more recently?

No, 2 years ago, like maybe 6 to 12 months in.

The tracksuits on there?

Yeah, Sonucci women's tracksuits flying, like really good for us. So very lucky that we cracked that, that path within women's. Men's is also picking up. We're doing really well graphic tees and t-shirts and basics. But the women's, because, you know, higher AOV with sets, you know, £110, £120.

Is that mainly driven by influencer or meta still, would you say, on women specifically?

I'd say mostly meta.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we still get, you know, like, we do a lot of gifting and influencer stuff. And of course we take socials very seriously too. We post a lot of product on there, so they all kind of do work together.

Who's the biggest competitor, do you think? Who'd you look at most? There's probably a few.

Yeah, well, in terms of brand and personality and the way we kind of— how we position ourselves in terms of the entertainment and how we do socials, genuinely I don't think there's really anyone in the UK who does a similar format of like that. But in terms of product and price point I'd say, I guess, a brand like Couture Club who are doing— yeah, who have had a really nice rebrand. I'm sure— I think they're doing really well.

You had a rebrand as well, right? I missed it.

Yeah, when we started—

sorry.

Yeah, a while ago. A while ago.

That was a nice one.

There's a— yeah, gray and, you know, more neutral. And I'd say Couture Club for clothing. Then for jewelry, for the ice stuff, I think it's still GLD, to be honest.

What about UK though? Anyone?

I think in the UK there are some smaller brands who run ads and stuff that do well. Yeah, but they're not really brands.

So like Cerucci or something, there's one, right?

There's loads. Yeah, bro, it's long.

Where do you think the brand needs to go next to get to where you want it to be?

I think we need to grow our wholesale, so like D2C, and that split becomes a little more balanced. Because I've noticed a pattern with some of the brands who, you know, growing well and they're getting pretty strong valuations in this type of thing. Is like they're a bit more balanced. It's not 100% D2C, uh, and potentially some more offline as well, more offline experiences or exploring stores and this type of thing. Because I think particularly with how AI is moving and how, you know, everything's on social, but I think people are starting to crave that offline experience again with the high street. And I think again, it's just a, another balance between D2C, between wholesale and stores like, for example, I'd say a brand, let's just say Represent, amazing brand. They've got online, they've got, you know, growing the stores across the world. They've got serious wholesale accounts. It's a very like investable business, you know, you know, because if D2C slows down, the website slows down, they've still got all the stock elsewhere and all these other markets. So I think we need to do that, and then we need to do a better job of growing all the categories and being a bit smarter with what we're spending on for further— because it's all mega opportunities, these are all mega markets. Men's clothing, women's clothing, can't do everything right though. Exactly. So that's why it's like there's actually a lot to do. And, and yeah, and also for Sanucci, I want to— of course, the fashion is incredibly important and how we do it and how we sell it, all the sales channels. But I do want to create a media company within Sanucci too. And grow that aspect of it, like the podcast and shit, like the Sanucci podcast, taking the socials more seriously and create these assets outside of just the clothing. Because I think that's like a— something we're naturally quite good at is social brand organic, and I think we can make it more valuable. And almost for the Sanucci to become a platform that people want to feature on and people want to work with, and you know, that the amount of awareness we get, it becomes this type of thing. And I think it's a You know, fashion is the most fucking—

what do you think's the end game? Like, at what point would the investors and you say, we're done, we want to sell it?

Maybe when we think we can get a really fucking great number, to be honest. Like you said, everything takes longer than we thought. There's other benefits to having a fashion brand if it's a cool one. Like, so socially it's amazing. Like, it's definitely a real thing that it's a status and whatnot.

So do you think you'd always be in fashion then? I'm talking like your entire life, because like you're rare in the sense you've done like 8 years— is it? I think it's 8 years in one brand, having never— which is actually probably how all the fucking greats do it, to be fair, rather than different dropshipping store every week. Or do you see yourself doing other stuff eventually? I see myself doing other stuff as well, but would that be in fashion again to compound the learnings, or would you want to broaden out once you're done with this into something entirely different?

I think I can see within brand building For sure. I'm, I'm sure when that time comes, I'm gonna like zoom out. And with— because I really think, man, like, if I can make it in fashion, which for me I do think it's like the hardest fucking game in the world because of how competitive it is and how hard it is to break through and, you know, actually create a real asset that's worth something. If I can pull that off, then I really think every other industry I can have a really good crack at. So like, I'd say my specialty would probably be like, you know, brand building within e-commerce and, you know, beyond that. But when that time comes, I'm sure I'm going to zoom out, look at the best opportunities around. Obviously right now health's having an absolute run, and it's a super broad, but some specific things within health. And, you know, if I catch the right thing, then, then it's a mega opportunity. So I'm, I'm not, I'm not closed off. So that's why also to answer the original question of like, regardless of the timeline, That's something that, you know, I'm going to take year by year and see, see, uh, yeah, hopefully, hopefully it all goes to plan and we, we do something special within the next like 3, 4, 5 years. But yeah, I'm still gonna, still gonna be open to new stuff as well, for sure.

Any regrets from the past 8 years that you would have done differently, or you don't think that way?

Yeah, I'd say just broadly trusting myself, my own instinct, being the founder more. Particularly that first year of like the, the second deal where everything's more serious, a lot more people come in.

Yeah, I felt the same, um, a lot more senior people.

Because despite— of course I respect their experience and what they've achieved— ultimately I am the founder. I built it to this point. I'm current. I know how to do a startup, you know, fully independently. So I think I had a lot of answers that and decisions that I could have made back then which would have, you know, continued. But instead I delegated probably too much, and I let some other people do some stuff which wasn't good enough or wasn't the right thing. I've maybe blindly trusted some people because of experience and age, but, you know, I was fucking super young, so is what it is. And I really look at all the experiences, like good and bad, the last few years of like, damn, I'm just becoming so much sharper. I feel like I'm becoming a beast in terms of the experience I have within business, like real business stuff, like within team, within all this other stuff. And, uh, I've no doubt it's just gonna help my future so much because I'm so young and I've experienced so much stuff that happens in massive businesses.

So, uh, yeah, but that would be my regret, would be that's been the most painful part.

Painful part would be probably just like really being the only one as passionate about it as I am. I'd say that's like when, you know, when there's certain moments, you know, there's— it's hard to pin down a particular moment, but there's so many moments in different events and experiences where you recognize like, fuck, I'm really the only one who cares as much about this as anyone else. Um, and that's when you're like, fuck, man, like It's just, it's just lonely, and it just is what it is. It's, uh, you know, I don't get deep about it. I think it's just the game I chose, and this is this reality of trying to do something amazing. It's like, it's fucking really hard and really lonely. And, uh, unless you've got co-founders or whatever it is, it's like no one's really going to care as much.

Yeah.

So I'd say that's just more of a consistent pain, I guess, that you get reminded of every now and then.

What's the proudest moment?

Uh, proudest moment would be just of the, of the, the back within. I'd say just my whole journey. Can do what she wants and go to Brazil whenever she wants. I've helped her with some other personal stuff, you know, when got there, got some money and stuff. So that was very proud moment I had. Yeah, nice.

Speaking to your 18-year-old self, What advice would you give him? The bloke in Waitrose stacking shelves would be quite a journey.

I'd think it would just be to just, um, trust your gut and your instinct throughout every— throughout the whole thing, because it's usually fucking right. So yeah, I'd say any, any big decisions or micro decisions or stuff, your gut's like been trained. It evolves over time. It gets better with experience for sure. And, um, and yeah, trust it and don't, don't get too influenced by outside decisions with people who don't have the same stake or passion as you. So trust, trust the gut, you know.

Beautiful. I think we could go on for 4 hours, but we have to wrap it there. Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you, man.

Probably one of the most interesting journeys we've had on the pod, to be fair, because it's so rare to have it all in one— have only done one thing, but it's been such an exponential rise, but also not done yet.

So yeah, man, we'll have to run this back. I want to do some group ones as well, some of the boys on. And yeah, now sick, bro. Finally got to do this biggest one.

Legendary.

Oh man.

Right, you can follow Fred at Fredica. Is this still Fredica or Fred Buckley?

I mean, that's another funny story.

Yeah, one for another time.

One for another time. Yeah, but yeah, Fredica.

He's all over YouTube with more views than me already. But, um, go follow Fred. Obviously Sinichi as well if you've not seen it, which you probably have. And subscribe to the pod and we'll see you next week or in the next one, whenever that is.

Yeah, thanks for watching. Cheers.

Peace.