From BTEC Dropout to Multi 6-Figure Profit Shopify Agency - Jordan Hill | The Midnight Pod Ep 55

Went to go see gym. Like really depressed at work and stuff. I remember the moment. So I'm in the car and he's like about to drop me off at the train station. There's Lambo and that. And he was like, yeah, you'll feel loads better if you have a business. That's what really drove me to start something.

Right, we're back with episode 55 of the Midnight Pod. We're in Bali. The guest is Jordan Hill. We'll introduce him in a second or horde. And Jill, as he's more famously known on the Internet. We're drinking very expensive Balinese Cabernet Merlot. The intro of the Pod has now become a one wine review. So won this tonight. Just went down the road to pick that up. You're the first guest we've ever had in Bali because it's the first pub we've done in Bali.

Probably the first one actually at midnight, which is very on brand.

Yeah, it's literally.

Oh, no, it's 22 minutes to midnight.

I thought we had to do an episode because obviously people have seen your brother's episode. I'm not gonna make it about him, but I feel like it's a small world. On Twitter and so on, you put up a following and then a notoriously well known client base. I think I feel like everyone that's in the e commerce space comes to you now for landing page stuff, web dev stuff and what's the business called? That works.

That works.

I've just dealt with you directly. You've done some of space. Good stuff. So anyone that sees the landing pages on Black Friday and shit, and Adam, that was all Jordan and Adam, the pod gods over there, we've actually got an incredible roster of e commerce magicians off camera. If you can spot a hoof on the floor, that is a person who'll remain private this episode until he comes on.

Yeah, there's a lot of brains.

Some other big names over there as well. Not on the episode yet.

Yeah, Elon Musk's actually behind the camera.

Yeah, he's there as well. Yeah. Where was I? So I guess, yeah, that works. Agency web development. I feel like I know a bit of your story just through Jimmy and obviously all our mates and so on. But I think you've got an interesting one and I want to get to know a bit more. So, yeah, I guess just going back. I always go back to when people were like a fucking kid.

Yeah.

And how they got into living this way. Because I guess just for more context, what you've been traveling full time for the past. What?

Yeah, on and off, like sort of the past 14 months or so, stacking cash, like mainly just around Europe and that.

And then now, now Asia.

In Asia for the past couple of months. Fair enough.

Yeah. And how do you get into that in the start? Like go back to like childhood, school, uni, etc. Which I don't know if you went to uni or not, but we'll get.

I didn't actually go to uni, so I started, well, pretty much in school, same as everyone else. I wasn't really like stand out in any way. Like I was actually pretty shit kid, like motor in class and that kind of stuff. But I suppose like I've always wanted to do my own business. So I remember like probably one of the oldest memories would be I always want to like make a footy camp because I was like really into footy and I was googling like ways to make money and all of it was like just pretty generic, like get a job in a bar or something like that. Obviously couldn't do it because I was about 10 or something at the time. So I used to like go to my dad's, like, right, I want to make a footy camp. And I'd go onto my computer and I make posters and everything. But I've always wanted to essentially do something on myself first ever actual business. So it was when Jimmy started Harvest. So it's going well. It's probably like a year in or something like that. And I'm seeing him do E comm and this kind of stuff and it kind of like inspired me in a way. So I actually started a supplement brand. So it was called like Ignite Fitness. So you probably would find something on Instagram or Facebook or something like that. We started with a pre workout and it was just a shit like supplement brand or like supplement wholesaler. So to say doing like private label.

When you were 14 at this point.

14, 15. Yeah. Like really, really low, minimal minimum order quantities. I was actually in college at the time and I remember like there was a massive delay like straight away, so stuff wasn't being shipped. I got a bit of money off my dad to actually place the order for the products and everything like that. And I remember like my dad, I was like ringing him up, like constantly ringing up and they're saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, it'll be delivered like next week. And it went on for like six weeks and the supplier was just like constantly following me off. And I think they knew I was like 14. Anyway my dad was running the business at the time and he was like in the office next door or in the room next door in his office. And then one day just like turned around like where's this shit? I'm like it's just not been delivered. They keep fobbing me off. I was getting upset. They weren't replying to my emails or anything. So he ended up like ringing him up, giving him like a full mouthful down the phone. Anyway, two weeks later the stock arrives. Quickly realized I don't know anything about business.

But you were 14?

Yeah, nothing about business, no money or anything but my mind was just like get the products. So I got to there and I was like oh shit, now what? So started googling like right, I want to make a video. So searching around, managed to get like a learn illustrator to create a package and stick the label. It just came in like a black tub. It's just like some tropical pre workout. By the way it tastes absolute shit.

Yeah, it's like white label.

Yeah. But it's like really bad.

Yeah.

Like everybody that tried it bearing in mind like in the gym at the time. So I was going to the gym, everyone was like ah. Like excited for the pre workout to come out. They were trying like it's like Jack 3D at the time. Yeah, it was like all them brands. Anyway I rock up. I'm like right, yes. Got my samples and everything. Everyone was like oh yeah, really nice. It tasted so shit like bitter from there. I was like right, do some marketing. So made the label, made a few mock ups and stuff like that. But at the time I didn't realize it but I was learning skills so fast like illustrator after effects, WordPress, make my own website and stuff like that. Sold it into a few gyms, started selling it to a few mates like just collecting the cash and everything. Probably got about like half through half my units. And then my mate came to the gym with me. It's called Cam. If he's watching, probably not. And he was like never had pre workout before but he's like oh I'll try it. Like 15 year old kid. He ended up taking about six scoops.

Give me a heart attack that.

Yeah. So this is where it went wrong. Took six scoops. I left for the, went home after the gym, straight rain, getting ready for my like shift at the Chinese. Walking down the road and my phone starts blowing off. It's Cam's girlfriend. It's like Jordan, what the fuck's in that pre workout? I'm like what it's like Cam's been admitted to hospital and they wanted to know what's in it. So I'm like sending pictures of the label and everything like that, and I'm like, it's from a proper place.

What excuses you meant to have?

Like 1, 1, 2 max. Never had pre workout to like six scoops. Yeah, like trying to be hard. I mean, so then, yeah, I ended up being okay. I think he's like, lung collapsed. Something mental. I was like, in work, like, trying to do these dishes, like, shaking, like, looking at my phone. And yeah, then after that, he recovered. He was okay. It was still on the shelf in the gyms and people were coming in going, is that a pre workout that made someone collapse? Oh, yeah. But after that it was like, done. But from there, that was me first, like, getting into Ecom, even though I never sold anything online or like, well, my first foray into business, essentially. So after that I just didn't do anything for a little bit. So I kind of like, was only going to like two lessons or the minimum lessons I could do in college to like actually work on this. My dad was like, right, that obviously didn't work. What are you gonna do? So found me an apprenticeship in digital marketing. So joined this agency. It was just like two directors and his brother. It was in this tiny box room and I was obviously sat next to the director in like a corporate job and just.

Yeah, picked up when you were like 17 by now.

16, 16, 15. 16. Yeah. So this is all like quite tight together. So I got my job there. And yeah, I just ended up doing like a lot of creative stuff originally. And I was like making Vines. So when vine was a thing like soup brands and shit like that. Just the clients that I had at the time. And then, yeah, then I was quite creative. So that was like the first path that the agency sort of took me down. But really I was interested in ecom growth market and performance market and that kind of stuff so quickly. So I went into Facebook ads, email marketing, but it's still a very small team. So I'm designing the emails, going on to mailchimp, sending them out, dealing with the client, doing the Facebook ads, like, proper, sort of straight in there with the customers, essentially. So I learned like a hell of a lot through there from that point. Probably were there for like three or four years. The business grew, that kind of stuff.

You finished school at this point?

Yeah, so I didn't do anything. Yeah, I went to college. Didn't get anything in college. Yeah, dropped out of college, went into an apprenticeship and I was like, my work started there.

It's probably a better way to do it in reality, isn't it?

I reckon so, yeah.

A lot of people, especially with uni, it's pointless for most people, innit?

I mean, naming no names, but, like, I was coming out of my apprenticeship at the time, so that was when people go in uni. I'm like, qualified in digital marketing. Know loads about business, good people skills from, like, dealing with clients and stuff like that. I suppose it's like a lot different to a lot of apprenticeships because I think most of the time it's like you just. Particularly on building sites and shit, you're just the tea boy, like running around, like, doing coffee and stuff like that.

Were your parents entrepreneurial? Hey, did you come from an entrepreneurial family? Yeah. Like, what do your parents do?

I did back then, so my dad did, like selling products into supermarkets and stuff like that. My mum's a yoga teacher, self employed.

Oh, yeah.

And then I've just got my two other brothers.

They're entrepreneurial.

Yeah.

Wait, two other brothers? Yeah, well, obviously, yeah, other than Jimmy, so.

Jimmy and Jimmy and Joe. Yeah.

Right. It's just three total.

Jesus. Yeah, Give him a shout out.

Wait, so you're all Jay?

Yeah, yeah. James J Jordan.

Oh, right.

So I'm actually. Did you know the film Space Jam?

No.

Oh, it's got Michael Jordan in it and I'm named after. So everyone jokes I hear, particularly in Bali, it's like, I'm Jordan, Michael Jordan. Yeah. But they watched Space Jam and it was Michael Jordan's in it. And then they went to my mum and dad. I'm like, how can we name the baby Jordan? It's like. Yeah, makes sense. Origin story. But, yeah, like, from there. So I was working on my job, decided I ended up, like, getting really depressed, to be honest. So it was because a lot of my mates, like, finished college, went off to uni, moved away. I'm still at home, what, on, like, 20 grand at this point, a year. So, like, still a good salary for my age. Like 18.

Yeah.

Turning 19. And then I just decided, like, fuck it, I've a word with like, Jim and stuff like that. Gave me the confidence to do it and set up a business selling mental health training to schools.

Oh, really?

Which is, like, pretty niche. But it was like the.

My, like, who was doing the training? Was it online?

Yeah, yeah.

So who's actually doing it? That's therapy.

Well, I was going like, drop shipping therapy, dropshipping. Courses, but a little bit different. So, yeah, I was like going out, like. So whilst I was starting it, I was still working. So I'm like going to Tesco on dinner time on the phone, ringing up, like all the mental health people and the, like, counselors. I'm like, please, can you do a course? And you could just tell from my voice at the time, like, so young. So everybody ignored me until one person was like, yeah, I'll do a course. Some, like, sick. Agreed a price, like 300 quid. I can't remember my first course was. But it's probably something around, like mentally healthy classrooms and like how to spot issues with kids. Like, you know, if kids coming in scruffy, like if the mood like suddenly changes, like a prolonged period of time. And what we used to do was like, so it predominantly just email marketing. So that's my main skill. And when you're dealing with a school, you can't just like do a Facebook ad because the decision maker actually buys it. They, on an evening, don't have access to the work card. So there's no Facebook ads. Impulse purchase. Everything's just for email. While they're sat at the desk on the computer.

Yeah.

So what we did was I created a slideshow PowerPoint with their content. They recorded a zoom, I put their head on the PowerPoint and we pretended that he was buying tickets for a webinar. Yeah. So even like, right to the end you had like fake questions and it was, you know, so you were doing.

The fake live webinar before that was the thing.

Yeah, legit. Like right at the end it was like fake question from this person. And then whilst I think it was on some kind of like webinar system and when, when they submitted a question, we usually reply to them afterwards, but we had fake ones within, as if the presenter would go, like, okay, so we've just had a question in from this person at this school.

Yeah.

And yeah, just like answer it, but it's all just completely planted. And then we used to do like, oh, this date sold out. Do another email run and like pretend like, build fake hype for the email for the, for the webinar. Ended up doing that for like, year, year and a half.

So who is buying that? It was the customer. Schools.

Yeah, schools.

Teachers.

Yes, school teachers and head teachers.

Who would pay for it? The teachers.

The school.

The school. Right.

Yeah. But this comes on to, like, why it failed eventually. Or like, well, it didn't fail, but sacked it off. So you can't buy the head Teacher, I want that webinar. They have to email the accountant to buy it and then the accountant has to fill it out. And it's like such a ball ache and so many processes from the customer side. So we didn't even have like payment gateways. It was like invoice gateway. So you fill out all the information and we send the school an invoice. And it was like 65 quid to 100 quid ago. So there's a lot of admin involved and it's just me at the time, like raising like hundreds of invoices for 65 quid. It's like so long. And yeah, we just, we ended up doing like hundreds and hundreds, hundreds of these. And the issue of it was. Well, to be honest, it turns like marketing was running Facebook ads to get email addresses to then email them about the courses and giving away like resources. And then you could do like Freedom of Information act requests to get like admin email addresses. Like, because all that stuff's like public domain. It's not like with an E comm brand, you can't just take personal data and like start a new brand and start emailing people.

Yeah, gdpr.

Yeah. I'm sure people do it like drop shipping. Yeah, you can't do any of that because it's all. Well, you can do it. Sorry. Because it's publicly available data. A head teacher is like a public servant, essentially.

So you're full time on this?

Yeah, yeah.

When you were 18.

18, 19, yeah.

So niche.

Yeah. So random. Like I felt like a G. Like when I quit. Cause I was like making my own money. They used to send me checks as well.

So you're living at home at this point?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they used to send checks. Sometimes they won't even fucking pay because schools are so backwards. Like they send you a check. So every morning without fail, when I was running the course straight downstairs, I knew the postman. I'd see him coming, run to the door, get the checks, come through. It's like 65 quid every time. Like sometimes I get like 20, 30 through, drive straight down to the bank, put them in. And like, I remember, like it started getting bigger and bigger. And then the bank manager came up to me and was like, where the. You get. Where are all these fucking like checks coming from? And they're like, oh. I explained it. It's like a legit business. I'm like, I'm mad. People just couldn't believe it. But yeah, like it did well. But the issue was with it because it's invoice payment, check payment, schools have. You can't determine to a school your payment, you know, your payment terms. They just pay you 30 days, 60 days. And because there's so much volume of them, they were getting lost, sent to spam, like I was doing.

It's not scalable.

Yeah, it is, like, hardly scalable. And at this time, like, this is bad. But you know when they say start a business, they say, do a P and L on yourself first. So reduce all your expenses and stuff like that. Six months prior, I've signed up to a fucking Golf gtd. Brand new Volkswagen off the lot.

Yeah.

So I'm like paying this and, yeah, like personal expenses, business expenses, paying forward, like three courses before we can collect the money. All that shit. Just like. Yeah, it's just really, really, really hard. But it did give me, like, if I could do that, I was like. I knew I could be successful at something else because, like, to be doing it at that age and like all the shit I used to do, I used to feel like a genius, like a mad person in the lab, like making these fucking fake webinars and shit like that. So from there just started, like doing. I think. No, somebody contacted me to do who? One of my mum's friends or something, because she wanted a website and she knew I was doing mental health stuff. So I just built a website for like 200 quid. And then next thing, my mate, who's an electrician was like, I can have a website. And he's like, yeah. Brought him around to my house, sat him in my bedroom.

You've been self employed entirely since you were 18?

Yeah.

Oh, mad. How did you know that? I thought it was less than that. No, no.

Yeah. Like four and a half years now. Maybe more like four or five years.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like from there it was like doing these websites and everyone just wanted websites because in Scunthorpe, where I'm from, it's like very like backwards town. Yeah. Sunny, scuddy. It's like 90% of the people are employed by like the Steelworks. And it's, yeah, not like a techy place in, like any way, shape or form. So people didn't even have websites at this time. Like, even though at the time, you know, the Internet has evolved at that point, like, there's a lot of people, websites, like. So, yeah, just started flogging these websites and I was getting paid a deposit, which I'm not used to, because normally I'm waiting for fucking three months to get a 65 quid check.

Yeah.

And also my cash flow starts building. I'm like, okay, this is actually pretty sick. So I was doing more, more putting my price up, going into doing WordPress stuff and it just reached a point where I was making more from that than my school stuff. Struggling with the cash flow, started doing the freelancing, trying to do a little bit more of like the performance market and stuff. So there's one time when I was working in the gym as well, like doing like little off shifts and stuff for a bit of cash. I created this like leaflet and it was like you can go back on like web. Was it web archive or something? Yeah, yeah. So you go back see my first website, jordanhillfreelance.co.uk so this one was why I'm going to do it as a business. The bird just broke up with me. I was like, right, fucking yeah, let's get going.

Gave me later's the way to start the next thing.

Yeah, best way legit. I was like heartbroken like at this point, like I was, alright, give me some motivations, alright, I'm gonna do this freelance stuff properly and like really go for it. So I made Jordan Hill freelance and I was like, right, how can I get some customers? So I made this like flyer. I got a photo of me in a suit which ended up becoming like a meme. Like people cut it out and fucking used to send it to each other.

Like it's like the fucking iPhone copy and past three.

Yeah. And I made this like flyer. It was me in a suit, like saying what I do. Worst thing I ever did, put some flyers in the gym I was working at. Put about 10 in. I was like, used to go in every day asking if people are taking them. Like, nah, all people are doing is flipping them over and just drawing on the picture of me. I'd get like. I used sometimes you find a meme campaign.

But.

Yeah, I should have owned it really. But like I'd get. Some days I'll just go in and find it funny. Other days I'm going in, I'm like fuming, thinking, trying to fucking do business here and people are just like drawing shit on me, like get real upset about it. But yeah, just ended up going from there, doing loads of websites. Then Covid hit. Initial reaction was a lot of my customers like local businesses and straight away like deposits were like projects people are going to go ahead with not going to do it. Deposits and final payments started coming in late and it's just me at the time and I Was like, right.

Fuck, yeah. I was going to say before that, how are you actually making the stuff?

You just. Just me.

Just you. But you like page builders or what?

Yeah, I was using Wix and like, WordPress.

Yeah.

So I can't actually code.

Right.

But, you know, I was, like, quite creative, like from the agency works.

Yeah. You just provided the end result.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, just designing shit out. And I used to. I bought a camera as well. I had literally like 300 quid in my account. Bought a 300 quid camera. Mum was having a go at me, like, you need to fucking pay car bill.

Yeah.

I was like getting into debt at this point. Like, it wasn't going well. Bought this camera, started going around, like, knocking on doors, like, literally physically going onto car garages. I'm like, you haven't got a website? Do you want one? Yeah. How much? And everything in Scunthorpe's cash because dodgy.

Yeah.

Like, I started all of a sudden, like, walking up to places, doing a sale for a website for 550 quid with my camera in my backpack, taking the photos, going away, doing it in a day, sending them a website the next day. Yeah. But then there was like, these little pockets of, like, industrial estate. So I'm going up this car garage and the next person next door, it's Pre Covid. This is like pre Covid. In Covid.

Yeah.

Next door's going, fucking. I want. I don't want a website like that. Go up, accept the cash again. Everyone's dealing in cash.

Then I was like, even in 2020?

Yeah, it's a crooked place.

I've never been. I've heard a lot.

Yeah, you don't want to go.

Yeah.

Like going into these car garages. Next thing, Jim wants one, tire place wants one, Beauty therapist wants one. I was just making my way around and I was actually doing okay out of it then. Yeah, during COVID and then started getting busier and busier. Got my friend on Jacob, who was, like, doing the videos as well. So if a customer wanted a video, I'd get my mate Jacob to film it and, like, put that on the website. Do like a bit of an upsell, bit of a package. Got busier and busier. So he came on, started helping out. And then I applied to be, like, this WIX partner because we're doing so many of these websites on wix. WIX was like, oh, I used to use wix.

I used to use wix.

It's actually class wallet.

I had some weird shit I made on wix before Shopify, like before I even claimed being an entrepreneur you can.

Literally make like a website in a day. This isn't an advert for wix, but it is class. I still stand by it. Yeah. But yeah, like WIX was like, you want to become a partner? So I was like, okay, let's do it. Like paid like 2k or whatever it was to fast track myself to be on this marketplace. All of a sudden like from working with the algorithm on the WIX marketplace, I've managed to get to the point where we're getting like 30 leads day. Like which is, which is like absolutely crazy now. Like I don't get 30 leads a day now. Obviously it's more high ticket stuff. Stuff.

Yeah.

But yeah, we built it up to be like 30 leads a day. It was going crazy. Started doing like PPC, started building a team to hire MVAs and had one VA who used to like just because you couldn't do any automation on the WIX marketplace, it's just a lead used to come in and then we used to do the PPC leads. They're just full time copying the data from that into our sales CRM.

And was the offer specifically website still?

It's only websites. Yeah, like legit. Just.

And at what point did you hire someone to actually do the building other than you?

Within like six months.

And where'd you find them?

This Filipino. Yeah, still with me today.

Is that the guy did my stuff?

No, no, no, no. He's called John. He's still with me today. I went to go see him.

Oh yeah, I saw that. That was lit.

Yeah. Kept him with me from the, from day one.

So he actually does all the building. He doesn't just do like the, the lead management and so on.

Yeah, yeah. So I taught him how to use it because he used to do like UX design before. Taught him how to do WIX stuff and he still loves it today. Like sometimes we get a job in that's like WIX and he's buzzing because normally he's doing like figma, xd.

Yeah.

All that kind of stuff. He's fucking buzzing when we get a WIX website. Because that's like our roots. Yeah, yeah. Like we had someone full time copying leads into a sales system every day. Wake up. And there was like Jacob who was with me from the start, he was a videographer before but obviously all I got like shut down for Covid because you can go anywhere.

Yeah.

But there's this huge influx of leads like through Covid. And stuff. So like every day me and him on the phone, like wake up. Fifteen leads each trying to ring people. Obviously if some don't answer, go into the next day, which is follow up the next day. So all of a sudden every day we're making like 50 calls. I got a co working space, got like my dedicated desk and the business started becoming like an actual thing.

Yeah.

And yeah, that's where we started. And then as soon as I got my first E com client I noticed straight away that people. An E comm customer, which is actually what I actually prefer because that's what I was doing within my agency job and what my expertise is, they are like repeat customers because every month wants to update it. So before I'm used to doing a website for 750 quid for like a beauty therapist who never updates it or probably updates itself and ruins it, never wants to pay for the updates and like 50 quid an hour to them, 75 quid an hour, 100 quid. Now that's like extortionate. Like hell. Like I'm doing nails for like 15 quid for an hour.

Like. Yeah.

It's a different breed of clientele. So there's a lot of admin like for not a lot of work. So we could only afford to have like Filipino workers on it. And then yeah, like quickly realized that econ was the way to go and. But it's just harder to acquire that customer. There isn't as many of them as there is local businesses.

Every 20 agencies for every.

Yeah, legit. There's a lot of competition. Yeah. That's when we rebranded to that works and then started building the E commerce.

When was that? 2021.

Yeah. Like 2020. 2021. Yeah. Started doing like more E comm stuff on Shopify particularly. And then my brother like never wanted to. Obviously he's like wildly successful in his own realm. He'd give me advice and stuff like that and help me out like verbally when I could get hold of him because busy. He was a busy cunt. But so from there he was like needed a new website and then he came to me like, do you want to build his website on Shopify? So I'm like, yeah. And from that point we started working with herbals and yeah, just grew and grew and grew from that point onwards, really hired more developers, more UX designers, started going into email stuff like building out systems and yeah.

Do you think you felt pressure to build something of your own because you've.

Seen Jimmy be so successful a Million percent.

And also on that. Do you think you'd have ever done it if you hadn't seen him go and do well for himself?

Yeah, because he was actually the one who like, funny story, but like two main motivations was like one day when he came and picked me up at a Porsche, I was like, yeah, driving around, like, fuck me, this is sick. Like, you let me drive it. I only just got a driving license at that point.

Yeah.

And then like the amount of fire. It's sad that a lot of people don't have this experience, like being around gym, like being around.

They don't see what's possible.

Exactly. Yeah. Like my mate, he, we went to Leeds, sorry, London together. And like he met Jim and like all this stuff and on the way home he's just thinking about like business ideas. And I saw like I had that experience but he had it as well. And I could see it happening. It's like when you, when you're around that kind of stuff, it like automatically stuff like becomes possible to you. But yeah, like I went to, back to the questions, like went to go see a gym, like really depressed at work and stuff. And like I remember the moment. So I'm in the car and he's like about to drop me off at the police station in his Lambo. No, sorry, train station, yeah, Lambo and that. And he was like, yeah, just fucking. You'll feel loads better if you have a business. I was like, yeah, to be fair, it does. Like, it gives you like a lot of fulfillment essentially. And it was something that I was not concerned about, but it's like an itching desire inside of me because obviously I've done the pre workout thing, wasn't anything special, but. And I was working in a company, I've seen them make money and my mind straight away is just going, so I could do that, I could do that. Yeah, that's, that's what really drove me to, to start something which I wish a lot of people could experience. Like, I think I've been lucky to have like the path I've had, but still it does require a lot of work and a lot of depression along the way. It wasn't always like sunshine and rainbows. Ended up doing okay in the end.

Do you think if you hadn't had Jimmy's brother, you'd have, you'd have gone the similar path eventually?

How do you think about this?

Or do you think there was ever. Because obviously you said you started super young. It's not like I thought you, I didn't know the story. I thought maybe you'd fucking go and got a normal job and then one day you decided to do this. Sounds like you fucking started when you were 15.

Yeah, go for a while. I even tried to do fucking CV templates, like sell them for people who wanted jobs and stuff. Yeah, you've got Zen plates. That was whilst I was working. Yeah. I think I've always have done it, but I think the more you work, the longer you work in a job, you get more comfortable. I think people are too comfortable to take the risk and do it. Like for me, they get stuck in the Matrix 100%. Yeah. It's like they've been working in a job for 10 years, they're scared of losing the job.

That's so true.

Got kids.

I always think about this because, like, I don't. I've always never, I've never gone into like a proper job. I had a burger bar job when I was at uni, it was the last thing. And then ever since then I've been surrounded by entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

Monthly wages and even with the ups and downs of which there's been many would never even cross my mind to not do my own thing. I'd always like think, which is probably my biggest blessing. I've always been exposed to it.

Yeah. But I'd always think like, am I making the best use of my time? Like if I was laid in bed, like watching Netflix, like 7 o' clock and my business wasn't where I wanted to be. But I'm 20 years old, I've got an opportunity to run a business now. I don't have kids, don't have a house, don't have a lot of outgoings. I've got a lot of free time. Why the fuck are I using that time on the business? So I used to always like it just like click in my head, I'll be back on my desk like straight away. And I think like that it was because I just had this fear of being like 35 and like almost going backwards. I never want to be going backwards ever. And it was, it was always that thought of like wasting the moment. I have and I don't want to be here in like 10, 20 years looking back thinking why the didn't I use that time when I was younger to make a business? Because yeah, I think it is right that like working in a job, you know, and that path is like good for some people. Like, I mean they don't want to take that risk and they're happy with the Family stuff. But for the people that do have that desire to be an entrepreneur, like, the earlier you do it, the better because all that's going to happen is you're going to become more secure in your job. You have more people that rely on you, like kids, more outgoings and that kind of stuff.

It's got more time to stack experience. Don't you?

Yeah.

I always lose perspective on age. I don't know. And then you realize, fuck. What?

Yeah. Did you go to uni?

Yeah, but I dropped out twice. Really? Yeah.

What was you doing the first time?

Business. Dropped out for six weeks. Went to the replacement in mergers and acquisitions in Mayfair. That was the first time I saw, like, proper entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

Even though it was like very different world, like suits and ties and shit. But. Yeah. And then went back to uni to do graphic design, then switched from that to do advertising and then left. But at that point I discovered like drop shipping and E comm and I had a clothing brand and all that shit.

Yeah. What got you into it to begin with? It was like your mates doing it all.

Adam was the only one I knew doing anything. Nikon. First thing I ever did was I had a clothing brand called Gentry Club. Gentry Club, Yeah, Gentry Club. So, shit. But yeah, I just had white T shirts and I printed a logo on them. I used to design logos. I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I didn't know what the vehicle was. And then it gradually happens and gradually happens and before you know it, you've been doing it like six years.

Can you like any 3D stuff or is it just like Illustrator? Just Illustrator layouts and stuff?

Logos and shit?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But once you're out of the matrix, you never back. In my opinion, once you see, like, what's possible, it's equally as addicting as a wage more. I mean, I don't know, I've never had a normal job, but yeah, just escape the system. So instead of the actual business, I can come back to that for a second. I can get philosophical again afterwards.

Yeah.

How do you structure it now? Because obviously you seem pretty laid back and traveling a lot, particularly in the past year, like you said, was there like more of a grind period where you just like properly glued to a screen, getting done and now you're enjoying the fruits? Or have you just built systems and a team that allow you to live this nomadic lifestyle? So I haven't even seen you work in the past two days, mate.

I've been doing work earlier.

Yeah.

Probably for many clients that are Listening. I do do work, by the way.

Yeah, true. I'm gonna have to put an affiliate link in this.

You gotta slate me for no. So, yeah, there's always been like the grind period to get going, but I have always been good at giving away responsibility. So I do just like trust people probably too much. So originally it was like. And I'm always on my phone like working. Like if something comes in, I do reply to it straight away. But originally when I did start going into Shopify, I was using like Indian developers. Fucking hell. Like if you're an ecom brand, like and you just need little tiny bits and bobs doing it's cool. But there comes a point where, like, you need a certain level of communication. You need somebody to own a project. You need really, really good developers who know how to do the job properly and just wasn't getting that from like outsourcing to Indian companies. And like, nothing wrong with India, but you know, Indian companies and like the freelancers find on that. Freelancer and that kind of stuff. So I quickly learned, which was something my brother told me about, like particularly comms and stuff like that. Like at the time I was thinking, do I need to be making SOPs and like doing all this shit? But I was only a small team and Jim was like, nah, just hire people who are really good at the job and they don't require management. And I didn't think anything of it at the time until I could actually.

I'm still sheer that. Yeah, found a few of them that are really good now, but it's taken years.

But it took me so long to realize that. Mainly because I couldn't afford anybody better at the time because my prices were so low. I was doing a full Shopify thing for two grand, like, you know, 10, 20 times that now. But I couldn't afford anybody good. But as soon as I hired somebody good, I was like, fucking hell, that's just removed.

How did you find good people? Because I still struggle with that even though I have got good people now, but finding new ones.

Yeah. So my first developer was like somebody on Freelancer who I was started subbing jobs out to whilst I was still using my other developers. And they were like, oh. I was like, fuck it. Do you want to come on full time? Because he's doing stuff like three times as faster and all this kind of stuff. I was probably getting scammed in, to be honest, for this company. Yeah. Like, I was like, I just want to come on full time. So I was like, yeah. And then I Hired his mate and then I hired his mate and then now they do the actual like recruitment because with the development side of stuff, I'm not a developer, I understand how specific components and stuff come together more of like strategy as well. But yeah, like hiring developer is really, really, really hard and essentially what they do is like set tasks so they've got to complete something within a certain time which is up to their standard and they're absolutely ruthless as well. So like they'll gang up and like critique the developers work and if it's not good enough for them because the super, super high level they've been around like tens of tens, tens of years like in experience like if they, if it's not up to their scratch then they don't hire them. So they only get really good people in.

Yeah.

And yeah they, they pretty much handle it. Like I'll write the jobs, pick out, they'll go out, find people, I'll do the interview. But you know all everything else from that point onwards they like critique. Yeah, that's just really how I find people.

So whole team side of things then. Because I can never run an agency because I just have to build brands even though I'm still trying to make one massive. But agency seems like a beautiful model. It seems very profitable.

You just make. It's an econ company but you're selling hours.

But do you charge by the hour? Yeah, you're not selling a project obviously.

So we sell a project.

You charge me by the hour?

Yeah, no, we sell projects.

But you pay by the hour to your team.

Yeah.

Is that what you mean?

No, no. So every project is quoted by how many hours it's going to take us.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. So that's how you just work out costs.

And then you work out your margin per project based on what you're paying your team to do it.

Yeah, per hour.

So. Because from an outside perspective, and I would say this as well, and it's stupid question but why would the, why would the skilled freelancer who's ultimately doing the work not just going fucking get their own clients.

Yeah, but they're not the freelancers or posting stuff.

Oh yeah. Full time stuff. Yeah, yeah. So why would, why would they not go and get X, Y and Z client? Is it just the skill set that.

I have to do to do Shopify, which is what we specialize in. It's like a lot but CRO Shopify themes, like that kind of stuff, landing pages, design figments. There's so many unique job roles along the way. So you've got like a developer and you need a QA tester. So like a developer, if they create something, a lot of the time, you know, it's shit on different screen sizes. You need to go through and do testing. Notoriously, developers aren't very good at that. Ours are okay. But, you know, you need a QA tester.

You're good at putting the pieces together. And they are the pieces.

Yeah. But there's a lot of like roles within that sales. And I'm lucky obviously to have like a sick network which helps with like client acquisition. Like, we don't do any outreach.

I was going to get to that.

Yeah.

Like, that's the next question.

Lucky to have like a lot of that outreach stuff. But one, a lot of the time they don't want to do it because they can't be asked. Like, there's a lot of developers. I get messaging me. Like sometimes they even play like the fucking. You were saying earlier, like, I need my rent is due. Like you got any work? You know, there's a lot of like, bad. It's not always successful because there's so many people and there's a lot of companies that just do fall for that trap of going to India and getting a cheap job done.

You know, honestly, I've only ever really worked. Me and Jack use the same Indian developer.

Yeah, she's a legend.

But I've got a mere one. It's just not reliable. Not that they're all bad like you said.

But we looked after you, didn't you?

The standard isn't quite the same on average.

Yeah. And you are managing the whole thing yourself. Like, even if you do do that, like you're having to manage all the people. Like. Whereas we love you just Wringles and we'll just do something like. As far as the question.

Well, yeah, I guess answer this. So it's kind of. Yeah. I mean, it's true, isn't it? Like as a founder in anything. And it's the way I'm trying to think about it more is you want to be like the conductor of an orchestra, not the violinist. So we're putting in it.

But we look at like entrepreneurship as being like sick, like leading the charge. But other people who don't want to do it think of it as the pressure of paying staff, the pressure of paying house.

Yeah. And it is all that. Yeah.

Yeah. There's so many different factors wired differently. Yeah. But they can't just go and get clients like us because there's so many moving Parts that are involved within doing it, like. Yeah.

How many people on the team now?

So between 10, well around 10.

And they're all full time?

Yeah, well no, like seven full time. And then we keep going until we're at max capacity.

I don't know. It's that many. That's a lot.

Yeah, we keep going until we're at max capacity, but then a lot of time, like if a customer rings us and they want something like straight away, like right now and we're at full capacity, then we have like a few people who are always doing work for us but you know they're there. The fancy freelancers who can help us. Yeah, but as soon as that person becomes like really, really, really full because there's a higher cost of working with a freelancer versus an employee, then we'll hire for that role.

How's the team structured? Is it mostly devs or do you have someone managing the team and then how does it look so it comes.

Back to the paying people. Well, so a lot of my customers are listening now. Know our developers in and out, they're friends with them because they like a lot of the times they don't even go to me. Like a lot of customers just prefer working with a founder and I think that's always going to be the way. But a lot of customers have a relationship with our staff. So if they do need something, instead of going through an account manager and that traditional way of like planning it in and doing all those bollocks, these guys can actually plan their own work schedule, look after a client and fulfill work themselves. So there's no need really to have that sort of account manager level. I do the sales and I do the high level account management stuff and the upsells and all this kind of stuff. But for like everyday day to day jobs, you can just message our team and look after it. Which is why we hire really good people who know how to do that kind of stuff and don't need micromanaging. So that's like the, the trade off of it. But I don't want to be like a really big agency. That's not my goal. I don't want to have 50 people on the team and just keep scaling to that point. Because you do fall into the trap of, and everyone says it like, you know, paid ads agencies that have 100 staff, SEO agencies, development agencies. You end up going to a company and the person that's actually doing your work is going to be junior. They've just come out of uni, they've been given a Google Ads account. They're spending 15 grand a day.

Yeah.

So we want to avoid all that and, like, stay boutique. Like, it is the term boutique agency. So that's what we're going to try and do.

Is it fully remote as well, team wise?

Yeah, completely.

Right. Do you think you'd ever want to have an office in that more formal setup, which is still something I debate.

Absolutely.

I come to Bali and think, yeah, I'm about being a nomad. The number of days I think I want to have an office in Central London with 50 people.

Yeah.

For an age.

Yeah.

For a brand. I still can't decide, though, for an.

Agency, the client comes in and goes, fuck me, these guys are expensive because they've got a massive office. Yeah. I mean, so there's that element to it as well. Like with us, you get what you pay for. There's no fucking stupid overheads. Like, you just pay them for what you get, essentially. And it means that we can keep our costs down and, like, offer a better service than, you know, our competitors, essentially, who you pay more for because they've got this Mayfair office and all this kind of stuff, which we don't have.

Yeah, so true. So true. I still don't know if I'd ever have an office. But then I also can't imagine being, like, dirty, being a nomad. Not that I'm a nomad now, but I kind of am based in London.

Yeah.

Then I come to Changu and it's like. I don't know.

Yeah.

Different ways of doing things.

I'd rather just be here. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. Even then, like, I'd rather have a. Like, I don't have a girlfriend, but it'd be nice to have, like, a missus. Not have to go into the office and just fucking float around the uk. Oh, sorry.

Float around the world with her. Yeah.

Until you're older. Because what happens is when you get older, people get girlfriends and they fucking spend more time with that. So if I have that 30, 40, just travel about, still doing my work.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Girls. Girls entrepreneurship, I feel like, are an interesting debate. Yeah, we can get to that later maybe.

Yeah.

Client acquisition, then. So obviously when you were starting, sounds like you were cold. Calling leaflets, all the hustle stuff, knocking on doors.

I chased a guy down the road.

What, literally?

Yeah, legit. I was coming out the gym. I've seen the guy and he had a unit next to the gym. I've seen him Walking down the road. That's a fucking cat. Stopped my car, jumped out, like, chased after him, not gonna say his name. But I was like, oi, can I have a meeting with you?

He's like, yeah, yeah, proper hustle. And then he said, jimmy wouldn't have you much because he didn't want to feed on a plate.

Yeah. Jimmy didn't want to give me work, like two years until I actually got any work out of it.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

When did you mention before? A minute ago. You don't do outreach or anything anymore. When did that change? Obviously you're doing PPC as well. Before. Was that just you get to a point where you've got enough clients that are referring you, et cetera, or what.

So we had, like, the previous business, which had, like loads of data and loads of customers and that kind of stuff that was supporting us. And then one day I just went on my website, I changed the headline to Shopify Agency, because you had Shopify on there, because that was like a service you started offering. Literally sat in the flat on my laptop, said, fuck it. I remember ringing, I think I messaged Jim and I was like, should I just change to a Shopify Agency? Because I didn't reply. I just did it, like, straight in, like, just changed everything. I wasn't getting a lot of traffic to the site at that point, but that for me then was like fully down the Shopify route and fully down the ecom route. It's never really been the case of doing outreach. Like, my skill is networking, so my thought always was getting into pockets of people. And if you have an opportunity to go somewhere, to go to it. I don't mean go to these networking groups where it's like, you know, the classic networking group, just like 10am in the morning, you have a coffee with like loads of other people who. Yeah, like drilling businesses and forced networking is just. Yeah, all that spotlights. But then, like, if you have a customer or somebody who you are working with who, you know, knows an ideal customer, like, I used to go into, like, I wanted to work with this guy in Leeds, for example, so I knew his best mate. So I just go up to him, mate, please, can you introduce me to this person? And it's just if you don't ask, you don't get. So just going through these people. Can you introduce me to this person as many times as you want?

And like, yeah, I need to do that more, to be honest. Yeah, I do it now and then, but there's no harm in asking, using Your network. Most people are willing to help if you ask.

Generally yeah, it did help because I was younger by the way. Like I 100 believe that. Like if it was a 30 year old guy that's approaching you or 40 year old guy who has this business and he's trying to sell his mate who has an E comm company fucking sending you cold email, like just ignore it. But I feel like the conversation was I know this kid, he's like 21 years old, he's running a shop.

Give him a chance.

Yeah, give him a chance. It was like 100% that like. But you know, you take enough chances you get somewhere. So yeah, there's a lot of that kind of network effect, like just going out and trying to do that kind of stuff and then SEO as well. Like we're quite good on SEO so if you search us like our brand name or like Shopify in a certain region, we'll come up quite near the top. So that's always works because you can't run PPC as a Shopify agency because Shopify is trademarked essentially. So that's like not a channel that we can do. And then because it's high ticket you can run paid ads. But for what we actually offer there's a lot of like trust element involved because it's such an important and integral part of somebody's business. They don't just want to Google and find a random company and just trust them to build them an entire website for the business. So a lot of it always is networking. I think particularly in the agency space it is you've just got. Majority of your leads will just come from networking.

And when you get a lead, if you've got a salesperson, is it you?

It's just me.

Always you?

Yeah, always me.

Do you like script that shit? I've never been in that world. And you just get home and just be yourself.

Sales is just getting information out of the person, listening, asking them the right questions, getting them to speak and then telling them how they can help you based on what they've said. So there's never really a script because every customer is different, they want a different thing. So you just ask the right questions. Come on, be a nice guy for start, don't be boring, have a big smile. Like I always get told smiley. So have a big smile. Yeah, you can't really go wrong as long as you're good at your job.

Do you find past clients help convert new ones? A lot. Like the social proof. Every agency nowadays has brand logos all over the website, including ones that they've never worked with. In a lot of cases.

Yes, you do reference the work, but the work has to be good. So, like it has to be a good brand. We never really get people. Rarely we get people that say, oh, you've done this company. Because we have like portfolio pieces. The reason why we do it is because people search, like, who did the Hairburst website? And we have like a page on that which shows up on Google. So that's how we acquire quite a few customers. Like these case loop stuff. Is a good source. Like people search that kind of stuff and like getting work from other customers, essentially. But it's not like a huge one. Yeah.

So clients, obviously, brand owners versus agencies, very different things. Because we have a lot of customers. We don't have clients. You have lesser than. They pay a shitload more. Yeah, obviously reputation is super important and doing the job well because, like, I assume that affects retention and how profitable you are. Massively. Because. And it's the same with me. I'll work with an agency or freelancer, like one very recently who takes absolute piss and you never want to speak to them again.

No names.

Whereas the best ones you refer a shitload of work. But some people don't seem to get that. Agencies or freelancers, 100%.

So we don't do outreach, so we don't have any paid ads. And I think it's just the agency way to go. You can do ads, but for what we do in particular. So everything for us is basically just built on reputation. Like referrals are biggest lead source. And I think that is probably the most common thing in agency world. Right down to the fact that, like when we did do Ecom and started doing Shopify stuff, we was doing jobs for 2k for a full theme. Like we were doing free work, which I know, like Ollie, obviously, friend of the pod.

Friend of the Friend of the pod.

Yeah, friend of the pod, friend of. That works. So all these, like he was saying as well, like when he was speaking, that when he started, he was basically just doing like free work for people and just getting a name and getting results and it's the same for us.

That's how it should be though. Yeah. Because I find that some freelancers naming their names like one recently, they think that the people they're dealing with have not been through that. It's like when you start a brand, when you start any business, you don't get fucking paid for like years, mate.

Like, I was getting probably even worse in agency I was getting jobs through that were like 40 grand in the quote or like their budget's like 40 grand and I quote for 10. Just I'm sure that we get it even though that we could charge a lot more. Like when we were getting a high level. I'm quoting it at 10k just so I can know that we can secure the work, get the brand. Because I know that essentially like referral and having these brands on you, on your website is like going to be game changing for us. And you can reference work because that's what's going to be the key differentiator is like what work have you done for the brands? Like? And that's how you know you can trust somebody. Particularly if there's a company that, you know a lot of people look up to and it's like a leader within a certain niche. You get so many other people that look up to that brand and then just try and find the person who does their Facebook ads or try and find that person who does their sort of, you know, website as such.

Yeah, yeah. So important. Do you think you as a founder is the reason you get referrals? Is it the quality of the work? Would you build the relationships or is it the work itself or is it both?

So we get referrals for both. Like, we get a lot of stuff.

I feel like every fucking agency, yeah, I speak to Ollie a lot about it and I was set the piss and I'm like, I swear you just every person refers you a load of shit because you're just in this network and it's like, yeah, it's just like so fucking profitable.

Yeah, well it's 100%. Like we get a lot of work. So for what we do a little advert for us. So a lot of the time we fix specific problems for brands. Like there's a lot of stuff that your certain dev team or whoever you're working with, they just come a cropper and a lot of the time they'll try and use apps or do stuff like that. So we do like super, super, super custom stuff. So returns, portals, bundle builders, special quiz stuff and features on product pages, product customizers, all this stuff that isn't standard, Shopify developer stuff. That stuff all gets put into a case study and builds onto the website. We're a little bit behind it. Like not done a lot recently, like in terms of publishing on our website because we've got a new one coming and it's just a constant update and process. But when our new site goes live you'll see all the crazy stuff that we've been doing recently and like, that stuff gets us work through Google because people are searching who built this, how did they do this? Because we're fixing specific problems for brands, but then in terms of like networking as a lead source, like, yeah, 100. Like you have to be within these pockets of people. So, like, when I first met you, it was on that Marbs trip. So I got. So I got invited.

That was a heavy trip.

That was a heavy trip. So I got invited. Yeah, like hell, I've got to be there. I mean, just to meet you, which is why I'm sat here and on the pod. But it's because you've got to put yourself in these situations to meet these people and that's how as an agency you grow.

Because how did you meet Ollie?

In Marbella.

Oh, shit.

Yeah, he was in Marbella.

You do loads of stuff together now.

Yeah, yeah, legit. Like loads and loads of. Loads of shit.

Like, I've always said this strategic sense, it's the best way to meet people.

Yeah. But I didn't. But he didn't stay with us in the villa.

No, he didn't.

He was staying somewhere else. But then I didn't even come to the meal where he came and met you guys for the first time. You guys came out afterwards, after I was with my other mates and I just went outside for like a fag in the smoking area and fucking Ollie just comes off, he's like, you Jordan Hill? Like, yeah, yeah. And then Joe comes March, Fuck. You know, Jordan Hill. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he's like, oh, shit. Like, we've got so much work for you. I'm like, we've been looking for a sick Shopify agency and all this for ages. And then that was just it. Like, if I wasn't willing to put myself in that situation and go into a villa with people who I've never met before for and just turn up. Like, everybody here was in love with. You wouldn't. Yeah, you know, but it's just. Yeah, but it's just sales at the end of it.

And then you meet someone that knows someone that knows someone, don't you?

Yeah, that's just how it's spreads out like that. And you can.

Yeah.

And as you do grow, it snowballs. Like the leads that you get and because your network becomes so big, like, I've got a lead just now come through. And it was like. I don't know who referred me. It was a Big brand and it's on the calendar form it was friend, colleague. That's the most filled out thing on our calendar. It's just always referral. But it's like your network just becomes that big and you meet that many people and your time and people talk about you. That as long as you're doing good work, that's like the main thing is to actually be good. And the main two things, if I was an agency or anything, I would focus on is, is the quality of your work. Because a lot of the time people just keep doing the same old, same old, same old thing and trying to acquire customers. Whereas just look at what your competitors are doing. Is there a way that you can improve this? Is there a way that you can start doing a different design style for the websites? Is there a way that you can improve your developers, make websites faster? Just always trying to work on your service and that is going to feed into your referrals because you're going to be doing better work. And that's the two things there's a lot of. And I compare myself to companies in Scunthorpe because that was where I started. But those companies who I used to think were my competitors, but they're not anymore. Like we're miles ahead of a lot of them. Like, I go on the website and see the work that they're still doing. It's the same as five years ago that you've got to constantly be evolving because if you're not doing it, some other kid that's in a bedroom that is like me is going to be, you know, learning as much as you can, learning the latest stuff. So we may even not be with Shopify, like we're a Shopify agency. But let's say three years down the line, this other platform comes out, all these e comm companies start moving to it. And this happened with Magento to Shopify. Like everyone was on Magento before and then moved on to Shopify. There may be a new platform. So you gotta be willing to change what you're doing and change your business and pivot in, essentially.

Yeah, very true.

Which is what I've done. Like mental health to building websites on wix, to pivoting into E comm to. Now we're doing email stuff as well. Like you've got to constantly be evolving.

Yeah, we had some really shit clients that made life very difficult or that said you were shit.

Yeah.

Or do they all love you?

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam's one of them.

Yeah, we turned down more because I can, I could Tell a bad client off from a mile away.

How do you tell that On Twitter? Everyone says the cheapest clients are the worst.

There's that meme in there. It's like $1,000 client is. Versus a $50,000 client. It's exactly the same. Like it's the questions that they ask on the call. Like, and I don't know, you can just get a really good sense. Like it's a sixth sense. You can tell if somebody's going to be horrendous or not. And a lot of the time it just comes down to like how successful is the business at the end of the day? Because back to that meme, like how much money that person has depends how much they're going to be on the back and how much it means to that person. Like if you get somebody who is super successful, super successful because they're good at delegating, they're happy to just leave you to do the job. The websites that are our worst, I can name them, but the projects where I don't like them and what I'd consider is a bad client is the client that comes in and tries to put their spin on everything for no reason. And we give them reasons why. The conversion rate, perspective. Perspective. And try the ones that just basically don't let you have the freedom to do your best work essentially. But yeah, that's pretty much it.

Yeah, it makes sense. How many clients do you have at one time on average?

30, but.

And a lot of them are retainers or they're just doing specific jobs.

Yeah, a lot of them are retainers. Like majority of our ecom clients that we're constantly doing stuff for. Like it's a never ending battle to update the site because. Always doing stuff. But we. I don't want to hire too many more people because it loses that like personal touch. Like people like working with me and you know, having like a family feel essentially. But yeah, like we. Yeah, it's just pretty much a cycle. And the other thing as well is you get a lot of people who have like international sites. So we may have like 30 clients now at one time, but one of them has like 14 websites, all different languages and that kind of stuff and they'll have like multiple brands and all this kind of stuff. So yeah.

Do you think you can scale, keep scaling with just referrals?

Yeah, 100. It depends on the business model. Like if it was a one off thing. No, but because a client is someone for life. We've only ever lost one client in the past. Two years since we changed to a Shopify agency. We lost one client and every single one, like, pretty much every month gives us work to do.

So.

Yeah.

How much further do you want to grow it? Is there, like, a specific goal? Has there ever been one and is there one now?

I want to double our revenue. That's my, like, North Star goal. But once I'm there, that'll, like, fulfill my lifestyle. I want to live, like, drive a car that I want, have a house that I want, do the things I want to do. Like, even though to, like, a lot of people, I may look like this super successful person, but in reality I just have a. I do a P and L on myself and I probably don't spend such a stupid amount of money that you might think, like, I just spend it on traveling and don't buy. Wear like designer clothes, like, spend stupid money on, like, stuff like that. So, yeah, that'll do for me. Once we've reached that level, then I'm going to start looking at all the projects. Like, for me, because I was doing a lot of, like, local business marketing when I very first started my business. Like, I want to go into doing a local business where it's like a restaurant, a cafe, like, even I was talking to Animal.

Would you do that alongside the agency? Would you get rid of the agency?

No, no, I keep doing it. I love my agency, like, it's my baby. But I maybe do like car wrapping as I put, like.

Yeah.

As a Joey. Just something that's like, I just diversify out. Like, I want to go into profit eventually. But yeah, like car wrapping, even like a car garage, which would be sick. Just doing like different things that, like, excite me something. Pick something that I can build up, like, do the marketing for. Because there's still an element of the market in the website, the video, the creative stuff. Because I think a lot of local businesses just fall behind in that respect because they're not these, like big E comm brands. Their customer bases are within like an hour, an hour's radius and. And they get to a certain level and just get comfortable. Whereas, like, I think a lot of local businesses kind of like sick content run sick social media. Like a lot of the local business, particularly in Scunny, that are doing well at the minute where I'm from and Scunthorpe are all the ones that just dominate social media.

Yeah.

So just doing stuff like that and just taking new projects on.

How long will it take you to get to the double revenue point?

I'm hoping this Year.

Well, then you're done, then you've reached your pinnacle at like 8 squat, 10, 5 in a year.

I'll probably make it a lot more comfortable, like, streamline it, that kind of stuff. But we scaled like, we did 3x this year, so 300% growth. And next year if we double, I'm happy. Like, I don't want to get any bigger than that. I'll just be chilling because I'm not. I'm motivated by money in a way, because to do the things I want to do require money.

What card you want, I don't know.

I'll be happy with the range.

Is that. Is that the car you mentioned? It's the dream car, yeah.

Well, hopefully when I get back to the uk, I'm gonna buy one. So I can go on now. But it's not like a Lambo or anything. But if I was gonna get any car, probably Lambo, so much cheaper than that.

Yeah. A range is a good wafter. Sure.

Yeah. Because, like, my car that I've got now is, like, small. I'll imagine getting a supercar, like, even smaller.

They are very small.

Yeah. It's just annoy you after a while.

Yeah.

So fit my golf clubs in the back, get a big range.

I want to move on to a different topic. You mentioned a mushroom farm.

Yeah, yeah.

And I've heard from Jimmy that he obviously has done some, like, charity stuff over the years, etc. Don't you mention on the pod. Maybe he's pretty private about it, but you seem pretty charitably inclined from this story you're telling me. Yeah. So what's the deal with that and the background on that?

So.

And do you want to do more stuff with that?

Yeah. So love charity, like helping other people. That kind of stuff. Like, that's even like, down to my staff. Like, one of my staff was like, right, I want to buy my mum a car. Because she didn't have a car, so she didn't earn much money, couldn't really work. So I want to buy more car. So she gets around. So I'm like, right, that was a goal for me. Hurt him saying that was a goal for me. So put him in a position where if he hits certain goals, he gets certain money that he can. Can do that. And then other people are like, all right, I'm gonna buy a house. So I'm like, how can we get you there? Like, things like that. Just helping other people is actually what gives me happiness. So to the mushroom farm. Crazy story. So we five Years ago, Jim brought me to Bali, and we went across to English school, which he was supporting financially. And it took us up this mountain, which is Mount Rinjani in Lombok. Crazy day. Like, two days trekking. Like, hardest thing I've ever done. Best thing I've ever done. And one of the kids that was on the trip, he was called Ridwan, like, legend or a bandana the whole time. And miss the. The guy that runs the school, like, he's an Indonesian guy, and he basically teaches the kids English to get jobs in hotels because that's the tourism that's available around there. Me and Jim just had, like, our trainers and our backpacks and vests and shorts, and these boys were carrying the tents, the water, the food, everything. And, like, I tried to read one recently, and he was like, fucking. All I can remember is how heavy that backpack was because he was, like, one of the oldest at the time. And did the trek come down. That was it. Didn't see him again. Come back to Bali this trip.

Go to Gili T. This like, last month?

Yeah. This is like, three weeks ago. I go to Gilly T. And I've got my two mates there. We're checking into this hotel, and this guy goes, jordan Hill. And I'm looking at this, like, as soon as I see this kid, I'm like, I definitely don't know.

You speak good English.

Yeah, sick English. I'm looking at this kid, like, I definitely don't know, but do I. Like, I'm just doubting myself, like, going around this thing. He goes, jordan Hill. I go, yeah. He goes, jordan Hill. I recognize that name. And my mates are going, yeah, he's famous. He's famous, yeah. Like, famous basketball player, like, all this bollocks.

Yeah.

And he goes, no, no, Mount Minjani. I'm like, fucking hell. He's like, yeah, my name's Ridwan. And he was that cool kid from the trip. And basically he's learned English. He's been released from the school. He's gone and got a job. And then they send money back to the school for supporting their education. So he's like, right. So we took him out for food. I went snorkeling first, like, crazy trip. Got loads of photos, went for food afterwards. And I was like, what did he do in Covid? And he was like, well, it was really shit because all the hotels shut. So I decided to start growing mushrooms.

Like, okay, what sort of mushrooms?

This is fucking, like, fancy name. I can't pronounce it, but these like special mushrooms that are like a delicacy.

Magic mushrooms, aren't they?

No, they're not magic mushrooms.

You can't do that here, can you?

No, that's legal. That's haram. So, yeah, so he's like, yeah, I was growing mushrooms and then he explained it to me and it was like per kg, it's like a pound you get. But he started doing it and selling some. It's going well. So him and his friend decided to put money together to build this place and they all live on this same plot of land, like his brother, his uncle, dad, his mom. Like, they all live in this plot of land and it's a real community place. So they built this big shed thing with his mate and started like. The way that you basically make mushrooms is you pack a piece of plastic with sawdust, compact it together and impregnate it with the seeds, you water it and it's like infinite mushroom glitch. So it's like no product cost, just water. Once you've made the investment in the, in the pack thing. And he was saying that there's another company that was doing really well in the, in, in the island. So he wanted to do it. So yeah, he was doing well from it. It meant that he could pay his rent, which was a massive thing. So it got him through covert. Then after Covid, his mate was like, right, I want out. So he's been paying his friend back and he's not been able to afford to keep the mushroom farm running. He's gone back to his well paying job. But you say, I said to him, I was like, well, do you want to keep doing it? Like, don't mean it could be like a really good, really good thing. Like by the sound of it, you can pay your rent, you can build your house, that kind of stuff. So I was like, yeah. And then he, he took me across to Lombok and he met his family and I went to his little place and he showed me his farm. I just said to him, like, look, do you want help doing it? He's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like these bear in mind, these guys are like 200 quid a month. Like really, really low wage. 200, 300 quid a month. And he's like, no, no, it's too much money. And I was like, and he's still paying his friend back. So I was like, look, well, I'll pay your friend back, I'll give you the money. It's not a massive amount of money for me. So. And you say, yeah, but what if I lose it and it doesn't work? I'm like, it doesn't matter. Like, if it means that I can help you, then it's 100% worth it. So in the end, he agreed to it. I was, like, fucking sick. So he built this list of what he wants to do. So he wants to make, like, mushroom crisps and buy this machine and do this stuff. He's got his mum who's gonna go to the market and sell it. He's got. He's gonna be working in his job. So we've got, like, two employees who are gonna keep coming and, like, tending to the mushrooms, keep pouring the water, packaging them up, getting them ready to sell. And, yeah, we're like, fucking booting it back up again. Because, yeah, he got his mate out of it. But it just means, you know, helping people like that. Like, I put it on my Instagram stories. Sometimes my life just feels like I'm in an episode of, like, yes Theory, that YouTube channel.

Yeah. Yeah, it looked like that recently.

But that's the shit that you tell stories about. Like, I mean, like, proper. These experiences, like, what I live for. It's not about making loads of money. But after I spent that time with his family and I slept on the floor, like, they fed me for, like, two days on this trip that he took me out to, and I went back to my hotel. I was dirty because he took me on loads of trekking. I've had leeches in my feet, like, done all this crazy shit. I've gone back to my hotel after these two days on the boat, did some. Did, like, a few zoom calls and that, and I walked to the restaurant. I've never felt so grateful in my life for, like, just the hotel. I'm in a bed because I've been sleeping on the floor. Yeah, these people actually live that life. And, like, the. Even the waiter, because it was the same hotel that guy was working in, so I understand how much he's earning. I've just ordered, like, some ribs and they've come out and he can't afford to eat that food. I'm like. I was like. Felt like crying at that moment in time. Like, the. The perspective that you have after living that life for two days. And I know that's not, like, living it full time. You never under. You'll never understand that unless you are in, like, extreme poverty. But being in that position, sat in that seat ordering that food from that guy, and I know how much he's paid And I know what his life's actually like. So I've done it for the past two days. I've never felt so grateful for even a bed or the food that I have. And it just like. I think it's like a Roman philosopher. Jim told me this, but like a stoic. Yeah, like, oh no, he's like an emperor. But he used to go into. He used to go into his like city and like change his appearance and practice poverty because it does have like a massive astounding effect on you.

Yeah, it's true. It's easy to lose perspective in it. I think I read some stat and it's like, basically if you're in England or America, whatever, like winning the lot, you're in like the top 5% of the world just by being there.

Yeah, that's it.

Like, it's like literally on. That is interesting.

But then you never know, like truly know until you actually live that life and actually do it. But I don't even have a full perspective of it. But like, it like teaches me a lot about happiness, that kind of stuff. Because they were like completely happy. We're in the house, which is tiny place, which is the size of this. They've fed me. There's no tv. Like you just sit there on the floor, no chair, a few mats on the floor. And to me like, I think it was happy. Like just chilling. You don't need materialistic stuff to be happy. It's just like experiences and people around you and that kind of stuff.

It's a bit of illusion. I don't know. I sometimes wonder why I'm chasing. Making so much money. Yeah, I think it's always been freedom. But then actually my parents say this to me all the time. They're not the proper to say goodbyes from. But do you actually break it down? You don't actually need as much as you think to be free? No, I guess it's more just I don't know, just like a fucking.

I think I said earlier, like, I don't actually spend that much money. Like in all honesty, like, yeah, it's true, you don't need that much, but it's just nice to have. Yeah.

Rather than need.

Yeah.

In five years, then where do you see yourself? Still in Bali or.

No, no, probably playing golf, chilling. Like, don't really have like a five year plan. I have like a one year plan.

What's the one year plan? I guess you mentioned it.

Yeah. Double the size of my business and streamline it more.

Well then start a kebab. Shop or some shit. You mentioned a physical business. What was it?

Yeah, like, I don't know, like I'm just gonna do something.

You mentioned an example. I've forgotten.

Okay. Car wrapping.

Yeah, that was a car wrapping.

Yeah, just something like that.

Like something physical. Why physical? Because when you seem to like freedom, traveling and shit.

So I know exactly where that is. So it's because my business is completely remote so people can go into an office and see all the staffs out there. Like, I even have a thing where I'll go into the kitchen at home and I'll like think like, oh, imagine I even tried to do it.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I tried to make a Christmas card and get an illustrator to draw. All our staff sat around desks, said that because I wanted to see what it would look like. Because I used to have that when I used to work in a job. I've never like. Well, I've obviously met some of my staff, did the trips, the trips to see him and stuff. But what would it be like if there was an office and have something physical to go into every day? I've never had that in my own actual business. I've never seen it. My business doesn't exist other than online. And like the customers I need and stuff.

Yeah.

And like the staff that I speak to. So I'd like to have something physical. I can be like, fuck me, I built that. Do you know what I mean? So that's why I've got that itch to make something, something local, because I want to visit it, see it with my eyes and like, say I built that. Other than just look online.

Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. All right, final question. Ask everyone. And by the way, we could probably do a part two where you tell all your crooked stories.

But yeah, we've actually kept a lot out.

I'd get demonetized and I wouldn't be allowed to publish this shit. Do you give three bits of advice to your 18 year old self?

Yeah, I.

Maybe in your case, fucking 14 year old self.

Yeah.

Knowing what you know now, what would it be?

Well, diversion. But do you know, people say, who would you have food? They only go for people. Ask, what three people would you have food with? Dead or alive? It'd be me three times. Like different ages in my life. Just have a chat with them. I'd fucking love that.

I'd find that more in the past or the future?

No, in the past. Maybe one for in the future. In like 30 years. But I wouldn't want to know. I'd like to have a word on myself, like a few years in the past, but, like, three bits of advice. Probably don't be too hard on yourself.

Like.

Save money and don't know. Probably don't eat as much so you don't put on weight, which I'm now getting rid of.

How much weight have you lost?

Like 20, 25 kilogram.

What's the goal?

100 kilograms.

It's another 13.

Yeah, I was in good shape when I was. I did an MMA fight and I was 100kg and I was in good shape.

Has it been business stress that's.

Put it on Covid and business stress? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Delivery. Stop doing the marathon.

It's like a joke that I have to ban delivery on my phone because.

Like, die at the same point.

Spend all my money on. Yeah, I should get rid of that.

Ah, well, it's been a good episode. It's been a pleasure. You've been a great guest because I've just fucking listened.

Thanks.

Apologies for all the background noise. We're about 20 people in this room for about an hour that wouldn't. Wouldn't respect the fact we're filming a pod. But as always, subscribe to the pod. Go check out. I should put a fucking affiliate link in this. I'm not gonna go check out that work. In the bio, Ollie said they got about. Fuck a shitload of referrals from the pod. So.

So if you're on Shopify and you need Tom Brands, please feel free to get in touch if you want to speak to me. Calendar links on my website, ThatWorks Agency, and follow me on Twitter and Instagram. Horden Jill.

Oh, yeah, Horden Jill instead of Jordan Hill. Horden Jill.

Yeah, Horden Jill on Instagram.

As. Yeah, as all the links down there, as always, subscribe to the pod. We'll probably do a few more out in Bali. I'm trying to get a legendary group pod going, but I can't promise anything. We'll see how long we're here for and who's on it. But thanks for watching. See you in the next episode. I can't do the usual microphone push because we're using little clip ons.

Yeah.

But cheers for watching.

Yeah, thank you very much for listening.