From College Dropout to Ecom Brands & Audi R8 at 22 - Chris Bamber | Midnight Podcast Episode 8

Right, we are back with what I think is episode. I think it's gonna be episode eight. And I'm just saying to Chris, I guess, who's gonna introduce himself in a minute and probably a huge amount of similarities in my mind to Jordan in episode six from Movay. But I don't want to let that ruin the episode. I'm just saying because I feel like on every episode now I don't do enough research on, on the people that are coming on the guests and shit. But similar story really. Like we probably started speaking online like, which sounds proper weird every time I say it. But it's just how the world days like what, two and a half years ago?

About two and a half years ago, yeah. First time I saw you was when you picked up the R8 from Redline. Yeah, that green one.

Two and a half years ago. I missed that car and yeah, and I suppose this like the beauty of this podcast is it's an excuse to fucking meet people in real life. I suppose.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think you've definitely got an interesting story. We were just chatting a bit before and there's loads of stuff I want to go into and Tokyo is going fucking wild.

Yeah, he's going a bit crazy.

I don't think I've worked him enough today. But yeah, I suppose like first question, it's just really just like tell us about, tell the viewers about your background, really like how did you get to where you are? Because Obviously what, you're 22 now?

Yeah, 22 now, yeah.

Driving what would be most people's dream car. Certainly was my dream car back in the day.

Yeah, it was mine at once. Yeah.

So I guess just like a whistle stop tour, like 5, 10 minutes. How did you get. Is he going mad? He managed to come over it. How did you get to where you are now really? And then we'll dive into a bunch of shit.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm from the northwest, sort of Preston area. Yeah. Middle class, sort of family. Dad's joiner, he owns like a construction company. And my mum, she's got quite a condition so she got on condition called me, which affects her like energies levels and stuff like that. So she don't really work. So we're all sort of like a self employed family, if you know what I mean.

Yeah.

My brother actually trades forex so he's not your typical guru or anything like that. So he doesn't sell courses or anything like that.

But you probably should make more money.

Yeah, I used to play quite a lot of Tennis and I think that's where like the hard working and like motivation sort of came from. Yeah, yeah. And then went to high school.

High school up there?

Yeah.

They call it high school up there? Yeah, secondary school.

Secondary school.

It's a high school.

Yeah.

I thought it was American only.

No, that's what we call it. Anyway, yeah, I started actually selling sweets and stuff. That's like my first entrepreneurial, sort of like Facebook. Yeah. There's this one guy who used to like sell drinks and we started undercutting him with like sweets and stuff like that. And yeah, we. We did like a few hundred quid a week and that was like the first ever taste of sort of the entrepreneurial sort of.

Yeah.

After that, went to college, did joinery there. So I followed my, like, my dad's footsteps because he does joinery, like construction. I did two years there, but it wasn't really what I wanted to do. I couldn't really see myself doing that long term. And I hated, like the way I just followed my dad's footsteps really. But yeah, and then that's when I started my first brand, Sansboro. It's a clothing brand. It's a sort of streetwear label. It's been going for since 2017. Now.

You started that during college or when you finished?

That was just after high school that.

High school folk have to adjust to you saying that.

Basically just out like my bedroom, it had like a small little office. Spent a couple of grand on your first stop, like everyone does.

Yeah.

Messes up. Sizing was wrong. Everything was wrong from the beginning. Really got it. And I couldn't believe my eyes, like burst into tears when I started it with six or seven kids and yeah, soon run out of money quickly. It was quite, quite tough at the beginning. I had.

Was that your first E Com thing ever?

Yeah, first econ thing ever. Yeah.

So obviously you said you started the brand in college.

Yeah, just after high school, actually.

Just after high school. So fucking secondary school. So what, you're 18 at this point, or 17? 18.

I was 17, yeah.

And was this like a plan? Like, what, what spurred you? Because, like, particularly starting a brand where you're actually like buying stock and shit. I mean, I guess I did that to an extent when I was in like 2015. Not to the same level, but what was the thing that, like, was that something you wanted to do for a while? Was it just like you watched a YouTube video in your Facebook group, whatever? Like, what was the motivation?

I saw Lewis Morgan, Ben Francis and his whole sort of squad And I was just, how have they got these cars at that age? Yeah, they must be doing like something crazy. And I found about Gymshark and there was another few guys who started a brand called Tayrock I don't know if you've heard of.

I used to follow all those guys.

Yeah, I think his name's called in the Birmingham area.

Yeah, they run a brand called Able now.

I believe they're killing it now at the minute with Able. But yeah, saw them guys and got inspired by them. Really just crazy. I wanted that car from the minute I saw it, like the R8 and seeing Lewis's posts and yeah, it just inspired me to sort of create a brand really. And the clothing was sort of like it's like this. Everyone goes to clothing really at start.

Yeah, so true.

Everyone like starts with a clothing brand. But yeah, it was just one of them things that I wanted to sort of pursue really.

And prior to that like were you just. I guess, I guess like most people were like. I mean for me I, I was probably. I knew I wanted to do something different. But until you discover like, yeah, oh wait, you know, people can actually do this like online stuff, particularly Ecom at like a young age. You probably didn't. I didn't know like where to start. Was it the same?

Yeah, that was the same for me. Just quick Google search and find Shopify and yeah, you find all these like goo dropshippers online and I was following them for quite a while trying to learn, test out and stuff and yeah, that's basically where got it from really.

And then did you finish two years of college? Assuming it's two years, yeah.

So I did about one and a half years of college.

Yeah.

And I would, I was doing about 5k a month at the time.

Yeah.

And to me that was a lot of money. But I didn't realize at the, at the time like turnover isn't profit.

Yeah, 100%.

I just, because I was so young at the time, I was inexperienced, I just, yeah, my wage was basically like 700 pound a month and to see 5k in Shopify sales, it was like the instant sort of right, dad, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna give it like 100% and go for it.

Yeah.

So I told him, sat him down and I was like, I need, just need to give it 100%. Otherwise I'm just. Yeah.

So this was in college doing 5k a month revenue. Yeah, I saw potential, so. Potential. Did you finish college or did you drop out?

No, I dropped out.

Yeah.

It was basically towards the end anyway. But I sort of dropped out early in school. I didn't pass maths or English.

Oh shit. Really?

I only passed two GCSEs. So. Yeah.

What was the college thing again?

It was joinery. Yeah. It was like constructioning.

And you just felt forced to do that.

Yeah, it's like when. Not when parents fought. It wasn't forced or anything but when you like advised to go down like a path because it's like tradesmen is like the. How do you say it? Like it's a good skill to have but it wasn't what I wanted to do.

And old fashioned. All we're looking at things.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Especially when it runs in the family.

Yeah. Yeah. You're. It's the kind of. It's not like put on you but. Yeah, it's. You have that sort of like parents pressure, don't you?

Yeah, yeah. I was the same, I suppose. I mean I didn't do join you or anything but like going to uni and then kind of at the end of the day it was like. Well didn't really know what else to do.

Yeah.

And people kind of expected to go and then that was me.

But I wanted to do. I tried out a firm that was local to me. I won't say the name or anything but it's like architecture and doing that drawings. I did like a day there and yeah. From. From the trial day I instantly knew I didn't want to do like a 9 to 5 or anything. You just get that feeling, don't you, that it's not for you. And I think I had such like high like aspirations because from school I played like quite high in tennis. I played like county level.

Oh yeah.

So. And then I went on to fishing. I did quite well at that and fishing. Yeah. Like.

Yeah. Is that a thing?

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

I thought fishing was what like middle aged blokes or like retired blokes did and had a few beers on a Tuesday afternoon. Yeah.

I got a lot stick for that in high school and stuff like that.

That's pretty lit fishing. I didn't know there was competitive fishing. It's not like getting the biggest fish.

Yeah. It's basically like weights and stuff like that. And yeah, you're there for like a few days and gotta catch hell.

That is local. I've actually never heard of that. That's mad. I've learned something new today. And then so obviously at the point you drop out of college you stood. Is this when you're doing 5k a month or was that prior, like.

Yeah, I was basically doing about five at this point. What was that, sir?

So like was it completely out of home at this point still or.

Yeah, it was just basically a bedroom drum. A bedroom brand. I had the stock in what we call like a back lounge. It's like a little bit of like a. Yeah, lounge area. But you filled that place pretty soon, pretty quickly. And my dad actually owns like a unit. Well he didn't own it, he rents it.

Yeah.

And he uses it for his joinery and business and that. And he had a bit of space in the back sort of office area. I just moved all the stock, stock in that and he said he could. I could do it for like rent free until I can basically afford to pay the rent. So it was just like a small office at the time and. Yeah. All right.

Another question I had then because I feel like a lot of people might have picked up on it. So you said you started with like six, seven grand?

Yeah, yeah.

I personally did not have seven grand when I was 17.

Yeah.

So where'd you get that from? Were you just working or.

I work literally from 7:00, clock in the morning to 7:00, clock at night.

Yeah.

I just saved and saved really. I didn't really have any expenses for my dad joinery business. Yeah, it was quite strict on me but it learned me a lot of lessons really. Yeah, definitely like good life skills and that but I just didn't really like look working for it. I couldn't really see a future in there. We had quite a few fall ins out as well.

Yeah, I can imagine. Too close to home in it.

Yeah. Dad and sons. It can work sometimes but there was like it. We brought work back home. Yeah, we. I could see myself falling out with him. It just, just. It was. Wasn't a good light sort of relationship at that sort of point.

Yeah.

So yeah, yeah I managed to save up that, that money from there.

I was probably just terrible with money. I probably going to the cinema too often. Yes.

I'm probably a bit the other way really as saving every little penny from everything. I wouldn't spend a thing. Even now I don't really buy that much like designer stuff. The only thing I've bought is the car.

Yeah, yeah we'll get on to that definitely. And do you think your parents. Was they. Because obviously like dropping out of college, like did they see the potential? They were supportive or were they like I don't know what the fuck you're doing. I'M scared.

My mum was quite sort of negative towards it. It's just like, oh, what if it don't work out? And I think all parents, I think they do it because the. The worried, basically.

Yeah.

Yeah. So my dad was quite supportive, but I don't know if he. Whether he believed or not I would take it this far. There was. Yeah, it was. It was quite a hard time really, because everyone wants you to follow like a certain path to uni or college, get like a good job. Yeah. But I didn't want to take that route. I didn't. I didn't want to follow everyone else, like from school that did that, really, because there was only me and a few other people that took different routes. Really.

Yeah. I feel like that's a fairly similar story with a lot of people. Like, I mean. I mean, it's different for everyone's, you know, everyone's situation, but genuinely, I just feel when it's like, especially if your parents aren't entrepreneurs or. Which is, you know, the case in 99% of cases, really. Particularly like Ecom, which is a lot more new. I remember having a conversation when I was like, the equivalent for me was dropping out of uni, so a bit later on, but. And my parents were just like, you're fucking mad. Basically.

Yeah.

Even though at this point I had like a decent business, I was doing revenue, I was making more money than I would have been in a fucking grad job or whatever. But, yeah, it's different for everyone. So obviously your accent's pretty prominent. I was taking the piss before you started. Where are you from then?

So I'm from Preston. If you don't know where that's from. It's around Lancashire, so not basically northwest.

Yeah, because I was telling you before as well, she won't be watching this, but there was some girl that broke my heart like four years ago and she lived in Preston and I went to visit her. I think this was while I was in uni in Newcastle when I just left and I was still living there. I mean, she might be watching this, but, yeah, she knows who she is.

If she doesn't find out the name.

Yeah, well, you probably know her, to be fair. Fuck. I'll have to get this off camera, but I Remember driving like 2 1/2 hours, I think from Newcastle. Might have even been like three hours to see her when it was like half term or symbolics. I don't know, it's like some holiday period. And then it went very south and I was like, oh, dear. But that's like the main association I have with Preston. But it's like the only. The only time I've ever been there, to be fair. Yeah. But yes. Is it like near Manchester? Am I making that up? North, northwest.

It's probably like 40 minutes north from Manchester.

Yeah.

So yeah, the brand's basically. We say it's based in Manchester but it's just.

It sounds better.

Yeah, it sounds better. And yeah, no one's really knows where Preston is.

It's like people that are from. It's like posh, like private school girls that are from some weird obscure village in Surrey that say they're from London. It's like, we're not from London. I love It's a 77 minute drive, but yeah, yeah, I suppose everyone has that equivalent in York. The equivalent is like people from Selby say they're from York, but it's 25 miles away or something. Maybe not quite 25, but anyway, to bring it back to the brand. So I'm just trying to get the picture here. So obviously living at home at this point, working out of the back room effectively, which is like the classic E Comm style. And in many ways I feel like that's like the most fucking iconic and in many ways enjoyable stage because it's just like so raw.

Yeah. I think when you're that age and you've got nothing to lose, that's the best time to start like a brand.

Yes.

When you get a little bit older, obviously, like kids and whatever, but yeah, your mortgage house, it starts getting more risky. So when I was at age, I was like, I was talking to my dad about it, I was like, this is the best time to start. I'm not gonna get a better shot. It. I'm gonna risk every little penny I've got to try and make it work and. Yeah.

Did you have any mates that like went down?

Yeah, I had a mate from high school. We basically like started around the same time. He started a nutrition company. Harry. He's probably watching this. Yeah. And yeah, he started property recently started doing recent. Well with that. But the nutrition brand that he did start, I think he's just leaving that now. It didn't really take off that much. So. Yeah, but we started at the same time and we shared an office as well.

Oh. Yeah.

So that was pretty. It was pretty fun times, to be honest. Yeah.

Because the point there was I feel like. And we'll probably come on to more of this later on, but I feel like, I mean it's. You're Obviously an outlier when you're at fucking college, uni, school, whatever, and you want to start a business. And, like, people used to take the fucking piss out of me. Yeah. My first. My very first brand, which didn't go anywhere because it wasn't. I've just chops and changed too much. But how do you get any of that?

Or I used to get the exact same people in college, like, why the fuck you started. Yeah, they found out about one of my brands and I showed him my Instagram at the time and I got a few laughs and, oh, why are you doing this? And yeah, and then I showed him some numbers one day on my Shopify and they were like, what? How much have you made today? I think I made like 500 to like a thousand pound at the time. Which at the time, like, I was 17. 18. Yeah.

You realize.

Yeah, yeah, I've realized.

Yeah, yeah. People know it's not a joke when you show them actual numbers, when you.

Can back it up and prove it. Even though that's nothing now, but back then that was like a sign of sort of. It's sort of working. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I think, like, there's always people like that. I still think about it and I think I mentioned it in previous podcasts, but it's just, you know, ultimately those people, if they are taking the piss out, people that are going out of their way to start something.

Yeah, no one ever takes the piss out.

They're never gonna do their own thing.

No. No one ever takes a piss out or goes on Instagram or someone doing better than them or more than them or. It's always like, the guys who wanted to start something and I got tons of messages at the start, how do I start a brand and stuff like that.

Yeah. So talk me through, like, the first year, then pretty much, obviously you've. Well, how long were you doing it then before you dropped out for a start?

So I started in 2017, I think I went to college 2018. So it was running about a year and a half before I went full time.

Yeah.

Maybe two years, actually.

Oh, yeah.

But yes, I bought my first lot of stock and it didn't. Basically couldn't sell a T shirt at one point. I ran out of money and the only other solution was to ask my dad for a little bit of, like, a loan.

Yeah.

And I blew it straight away on stupid amounts of stock that didn't end up selling. So that put me in a more of a mess and. Yeah.

Were you full time at this point?

Yeah, I was full time at this point. Yeah. Just working by myself in the office, packing orders late at night and. Yeah, because when you start like a stock based business, it's so hard to get it off the ground with limited amount of money.

Yeah, yeah.

Even. Even 20 grand, if you had 20 grand it's still so difficult.

Feel like especially in clothing.

Especially in clothing.

Experience in clothing. But yeah, you got.

So when you start out you just think I'll just buy a T shirt, I'll sell it and I'll make this much profit. But you don't realize about the advertising, the customs fees there.

Yeah.

Website, it adds up. And I wasn't even counting profits then. I was just basically like I'm doing like this amount a month. But yeah, that's where I'm messed up really.

Yeah, I think, I think in E comm in general to fair what in, in starting a business in general. Like I don't know if you experience this but like a lot of people, just people that aren't in the game at all and particularly aren't in the ecom game, like they basically think that your revenue is quite literally money in your.

Money in your pocket. Yeah.

I think I've said this before but firstly it's not even profit and secondly, even if it was profit it's not going to. You can grow the business, buy stock, particularly stock based like you said.

Yeah. It goes back into the business and yeah, you never really see that money at the start but yeah, yeah, it's mad.

It's a fucking hard slog. And then what was the thing. I guess two part question, what was the thing that helped you like properly start growing? For me back in the day it was Facebook ads. Yeah. When they were way cheaper.

Yeah.

So and like when, when was that as well?

So I basically use Facebook ads from the beginning. So I learned everything myself. Yeah, I didn't really. I touched a few influencers at the beginning of when I started the brand but I had so many mess arounds and yeah people not delivering properly of what I asked and so many cases of that I bought. I think I spent like 500 pound on an influencer and didn't bring one sale back. And after I started looking at his followers in engagement. It was basically all fake to be honest.

Yeah.

And I got a message from another brand owner like a few months after, after I started talking to him. Basically done the same to him as well.

Yeah, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Yeah, it's all smoke and mirrors. So these influences yeah, legit.

And then your day to day then working. So like are you. Obviously you're not still got stock in your parents house?

Actually no, I haven't, no.

So like from that point to now.

Yeah.

What was like just give us like a roundup like in terms of the roadmap, what was that like two years? It's three years since that point. Since when you dropped out?

Yeah, about two. About two and a half years now.

Yeah.

So I got a loan from my dad. I was like look dad, I need to borrow some money. I know it's going to seem like high risk at the moment but I will pay you off in future and I'll retire and all that sort of stuff. So we went down to the bank one day. We just loaned a small amount of money to start with but I soon blew that money and I was back in the same sort of position where I couldn't sell anything and I just had to tell my dad and my brother. I got him in my office one day. I've run out of money, I need to. I need to do something different or. And he was telling me to go to a job on thinking about coming back and working for him but I was like absolutely not. I would rather literally jump off a cliff than go back to a 9 to 5.

Yeah.

It's just not my type of like work. I couldn't see myself doing that really.

Yeah. And were you running ads at this point though?

Yeah.

So you couldn't sell the stock? Like what was the reason I basically.

Run out of money.

Yeah.

So yeah, I literally had 50p in my account.

Yeah.

Literally nothing. I've got a screenshot as well. I'll probably show it you later. A few screenshots in that. But yeah. And then from that point I started looking into drop shipping.

Yeah.

And that's when the sort of second brand came around.

Yeah.

So I started my.

Well, I know like. Well I think you mentioned it maybe once. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know about the second brand. So what's all that about?

Yeah, so I can't reveal the name right yet.

Right now it's too competitive.

All the products are not fully branded yet and yes, it's just. I will reveal it next year because yeah, we're just at that tipping point now where we're transitioning from. We do have some products stocked in house but most of them are still from China in a warehouse. From China.

Yeah.

So until that's like some fully cemented in, then I'll. I'll leave it for now, but maybe that's for another podcast.

Can you say what the brand is like roughly is though just like what he does?

Yeah. So it's in like the woman's fashion sort of niche.

Yeah.

Accessory niche.

And you started this like two years ago?

Yeah. So at first I started my first like drop shipping brand. I like swore I never get into it because I heard about shipping times and yeah. Just all like the bad stuff in general about drop shipping but I was so desperate for money that I had no other way of making anything else. And yeah, just prior to before that as well. I might go on a bit of a tangent about this but that's what we need. Yeah. At that point I had no money so I was basically looking on, looking on ebay and Fiverr about how to make money online. Like you go on Google.

Yeah.

And I came across this guy, he wanted me to sell basically is like farm equipment on ebay for him.

That's pretty niche.

Yeah. And I got 25 of the cut and he will keep the rest but I would need to sell the. I need to sell the items for him. And at the time everything clocked out because I had his name, I had his address, I had basically everything. The pictures of the items. Yeah. So I basically list it for sale on ebay a few days later. I mean the high ticket items, the first item that was basically sold was three grand. It was like this little digger thing.

Oh yeah.

So the sale went through. I got the money through to my PayPal. Yeah. And then the, the digger never turned up. The guy phoned the buyer assuring me it was gonna deliver it on time and everything seemed alright until that last moment where it fell through. He ran off with the money. No, he didn't run off with. I still had the money in my account and then I transferred him the court and I took my 25. Yeah, he ran off with it. I was.

How do you come across this guy?

It was on people put was it is either people per hour or Fiverr. And that was the first time I've ever been scammed. I was so gutted.

What was the, what was he claiming to be though? Like if you found it on Fiverr.

He was just. He. I looked up his finger. His finger, sorry. I looked up his, what do you call them, like descriptions, his ads that he puts out. But well he were claiming that he needed help with listing all his agricultural equipment, stuff like that. And I was like look, I can help you with that. I've sold so many things on ebay before, just like random shoes and stuff like that. It was a pure scam. Yeah. Luckily there was another five grand piece of equipment that was just about to go through. But on that day, he ran off with the money and I just instantly knew he'd gone because I couldn't call him. I tried calling him, emailing him, never responded. So I was left with my little cut of 25. But he ran off with the money and the buyer disputed it over PayPal.

On your PayPal account?

Yeah, on my PayPal. So I was minus three grand in my PayPal and they were chasing me for that for ages. I still never paid it back.

Oh, yeah, Shit. So did he ever give it back?

No, still not. Found it to this day.

Pretty elaborate scam, to be fair.

It was. It was so thought out that I had literally three or four people look at it.

Heard of similar things with eBay and PayPal.

It was back in the day where it wasn't as strict as it is now, the whole eBay and PayPal. Because literally now you can't get away with anything. But, yeah, back then, I don't. Yeah, I can't even believe that. Just looking back, it was such a. Yeah. An easy spot. But at the time, yeah, I was so desperate for money that, yeah, I didn't. Probably didn't think things through and. But I had like three or four people check it out and we had his contact details. Contact details.

There was some bloke in Central African.

Republic, address and everything. Yeah. I called the police after that. Filed a. I don't know what. You file like a report, don't you, when you've been like, she never called.

The police, so I don't know, I.

Didn'T actually call them, but I. I got in touch with him.

Yeah. Actually, to be fair, I tell a lie. I think I had to do something similar when I got my watch nicked off my wrist in Barcelona like three years ago. I never called them, but I have to go to the police station. Letter bollocks.

I was literally in tears after that because that was like a blow to the stomach when you've got literally nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just glad that that second sale didn't go through.

Yes.

I would have been literally minus 10 grand down and they still haven't recovered that money. To this day, that PayPal is just. I don't know if I should say this or not, but. Yeah, it's just floating around somewhere.

Yeah. And then just after that was when you discovered drop shipping or.

Yeah. After that, discovered drop shipping. After just selling bits and bobs on ebay. Trying to just make a few quid. Yeah, discovered drop shipping. I made my first store selling jewelry and then, yeah, I couldn't, I just couldn't take it off. And yeah, I tried free personal shipping and all that sort of stuff.

I've done that in the past.

I tried selling kitchen gadgets and it's just. Yeah, that stuff doesn't work. It was. That was basically like 2016, 2017 when people made the money.

When was this then when you did that was 2019. Yeah, 2019, 2017, 18 back.

I think it was back into 2019.

Pre, like Facebook feedback score.

Yeah.

When it was so easy before all that was a lot easier.

Yeah.

And yeah, looking back on it now, it's like some fucking funny shit. I used to sell, but it was kind of that period between first, like I had a few little brands and then dropshipping.

I think it's such a good model to build up cash flow and just learn how to. Nothing but manage ads and even like the customer experience, like from shipping to. Yeah, just dealing with customer emails. It just teaches you everything to build like a brand basically.

Yeah, 100%. I think it's like, yeah, if you could make like an E commerce degree or symbolics, like just put in a room, giving them like a thousand quid in their laptop and saying make a drop shipping store.

Yeah.

Six months to figure out.

You could literally start it with a few hundred quid. Now you can turn that into a multi million pound.

There are people though that are still one of my old housemates. That was what he was doing still. I mean he would never show me what his store was, which is kind of the weird part, who he was.

I spoke to him quite a bit actually. Oh, what's his name?

Connor.

Yeah, Connor. That's his name.

I can say his name. Yeah, Just calling me Goose.

Yeah, that was. Yeah, yeah.

Fucking funny. I miss that Don, if he's watching.

Yeah.

Need to catch up. But yeah, I think he was, he was still doing drop shipping. There's still people that are doing drop shipping. I think at the end of the.

Day, like the model still works.

It's basically the same model drop shipping itself. And the stereotype about dropshipping are two different things. Obviously dropshipping people that don't know is just. Well, everyone probably knows, but you're just selling a product that you haven't got and you pay for it once you've been paid and you make the difference. Yeah, but I Guess, Yeah. The stereotype about dropshipping is shit quality product takes fucking six weeks to come. Facebook feedback score. Now would be fucked up. There are ways around it.

You can make it.

You can make a good experience. Dropshipping store. I mean, it's never gonna be quite as good.

We do it at the minute, but it's just not as good as we could do with like the private label sort of stuff.

Yeah.

So we'd get a decent feedback score. We've done. Yeah. Multiple seven figures on it and yeah, it's done all right. But the first one I ever started, it failed. I started another one after that, it failed. And then I came onto this one, started getting a few sales. Instantly knew that I could turn it into a brand long term. And it wasn't just like a short sort of cash. Yeah, cash grab and go like many like dropshippers do or like even like trends. It's based on trends and stuff like that.

A lot of people, but yeah, 100% agree.

This sort of brand that I've made is. It's not basically like on trends or little gadgets or anything like that. Yes, it. I can see it being like a multi million 10 mil plus brand, easy.

Yeah, that's an interesting point actually, because I know people that have started drop shipping and now. Well, one person particularly. And now it's a proper fucking big brand. And you can.

There's a lot of people. Even Gymshark started off dropshipping.

Yeah. Yeah. For me, when I was doing drop shipping, I didn't do it. I didn't view it that way. I mean, maybe I could have done. I just. I had a few different. I just literally wanted to make money. Didn't really give a fuck. It was just like, yeah, kitchen, just about the numbers. And then I went like back to. I'm gonna build a brand. And that's my sign. Midnight City, like two and a half years ago. But yeah, you are right. You can definitely like drop shipping has become this dirty word because of what 90% of people do with it, which is. Yeah, gray hat sort of sort of slice. Yeah, you can do it.

Not sending products. Yeah, of course you can. Yeah.

And you can do it in a way, like you said, is a great way to start a brand if you've got like no experience and mainly no money. Like, it's a fucking great way to start a brand. Like, anyone can do that if they're willing to, A, learn stuff themselves and B, just fucking put some time into it, which most people just aren't Willing to do.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. If you're not willing to put in the time, then how are you going to make things work? Really?

Yeah, exactly. Like people don't want to get. People want to loads of money and all this like what they perceive to be like the rewards. But they don't get in the trenches.

Yeah. They want. They don't want to get in the nitty gritty stuff and they gotta learn.

To love the trenches.

Yeah, that's it. All the benefits where the, the skills and everything is built really. Like from Facebook ads to see everything.

Yeah, yeah. So obviously this is about two years ago then. So you've got. You got the brand. Yeah. Which is. Is that still like the main priority at this point? And then you started the drop shipping.

Yeah.

So brand. Yeah, like with the intention originally of.

Just making money at the time, because I had literally no money. That was basically just to get some money behind me.

Yeah.

To basically funnel into Sansboro.

Yeah.

The streetwear label.

Did that dropshipping brand make money?

Yeah. So it started to kick off a little bit. One of the products. Then we fully transitioned it into like a branded store. Branded everything. Yeah, it started to do well. We did. I think we did like 10, 15k first ever month and then. Yeah, 20k, then 40k, then 60k, 90k and then we're at multiple six figures a month, which was like a real sort of like we might be on to like a winner here.

Yeah.

And yeah, that was. When was that? November last year we did. Yeah, the biggest ever month. Yeah, that was like sort of the turning point when I thought, I need to start taking this into a brand now.

Yeah.

Because you can only take it so far. Dropshipping, especially with a. I mean our feedback score was still good, but it was still limited.

Sorry, people are watching this. They're not going to see this. Crazy.

Fucking been on me all night.

He's been chewing on Chris the whole time, going mad. I think just maybe just put him down. He's gonna start. He's going crazy.

I'll leave you.

I'll just leave him. Yeah. So, yeah, that's interesting. I actually didn't know most of that. So first question then, like, if that was doing well, I guess two part question. Firstly, how much better was that doing than Sans Parei?

Yeah.

So. And did that like change? And secondly, if it was doing so much better, why did you like, why would you funnel money into something which at the time wasn't working that well? What was the thinking?

Cause he's Gonna ruin your jumper. I'll put him down. I'll funnel him over here.

Yeah, come over here. Come here.

Come on.

Sorry, I cut this bit out. It's just fucking annoying me. He's gonna ruin your jumper. Give me this. Rebeard dog. Come here. Just literally chuck him out of it. He's going crazy. He loves you. Come here.

I'll make that.

Right. There we go. Straight back to you. He might have to stay with you.

Yeah, he's all right. He just loves chewing that jumper.

Yeah, he does.

Yeah. So what. What was your bell, then?

Oh, the funnily.

Why was it.

Yeah, like, why. Why do that? If one's working, the other's not. So I wasn't at the time.

Basically, I started Sans Pro and that was the brand that I wanted to take far. And the drop shipping one on the side was basically just a side just to funnel money into Sandsboro. I always knew it was going to do something, but it's like clothing. There were so many clothing brands out at the start. It was just trying hard to find our sort of niche and differentiate ourselves from other brands. I mean, I tried a few stuff at the. We originally did gym wear at start.

Oh, yeah.

And then we actually transitioned into sort of like streetwear and sort of the graphic tees that you see now on the website. Yeah. The gym wear didn't really take off and I just. I never really wanted it to be like a gym wear brand at the start. I wanted it to be like a cross, but ended up taking the more of like, sort of streetwear route. And that's where the main. Mainly, like, the sort of sales came from.

Yeah.

So we found, like, a few products was. Our main one was like a tracksuit, it's called, like, the utility tracksuit. That started doing quite decent numbers and then we started doing graphic tees and cargo pants. We started to kick off then, really.

And at what point did the drop well, at what point did Sans Prize start to do well, having previously struggled? And was it money from the dropshipping brand that helped? And, like, where did you put that money?

Yes.

New stock ads. What?

Yeah, so most of the money went into stock and then we started doing different designs and I expanded and got my friend, which works for me now.

Yeah.

So I've got two. Two employees at the minute. It's just helped me sort of put the. How do I say it? Like, the customer service, the packing orders. I didn't have to deal with all that stuff and it just allowed me to focus on ads and Designing products, all that sort of stuff to help actually grow the business instead of.

Yeah.

Constantly packing orders and I'd be up at late at night packing them. And it just takes most of your time, really. It's jobs that can be outsourced easily. But yeah.

So going back to November 2020, then, which I think you said was the biggest month.

Yeah.

For the dropshipping brand. How so? Say 2020. How did the. How did the two compare in terms of like, size?

The drop shipping one was a lot better than Sandsboro at that time.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's only basically been, I'd say the start of this year, that it's been really kicking off Sandsboro.

Yeah. Interesting.

So it's been going how many years now? And it's only been basically this year. We've really started to scale and put money into it and we've been seeing some, like, really good results, really.

And so right now then, are you the setup for Sounds Bright. Are you using a 3PL? Are you fulfilling it from a warehouse unit? What's the story there?

So my dad has a unit and I've basically taken over half of it.

Yeah.

Paying for it. And we. I think we did that in November last year. We like gutted it all out and plastered it and put new lightings in the warehouse and. Yeah. Got all that set up. Yeah. So at the minute, my friend Reese packs all the orders and manages all that stuff. At the minute. Yeah.

And I feel like a lot of people would say if that other brand. Well, the dropshipping brand, but ultimately still that other brand was doing better, particularly last year.

Yeah.

Like, why keep doing both? Is that because you saw yourself long term doing both or because.

Yeah.

I can see you still thought sans Bri could be that number one.

Yeah, I can. I can still see both. Well, mainly Sans Pro. Doing the best.

I'm saying it wrong, aren't I? Sounds right. I'm saying it too French or some sans Braille.

It's probably different to how I say it, but it's. Yeah, yeah, that's how we really say it, really. But yeah. So, yeah, I can see both brands doing, like becoming the next big sort of brand, but yeah. Oh, where do I go from now?

If you had to pick one.

Yeah.

Because the reason I ask is I'm. Well, I made the mistake kind of unintentionally last year. I've ended up with two brands at the same time, which wasn't the cause of them, wasn't the main problem, but was a problem. I just fucking found it so difficult.

I guess it's been a problem with me as well.

Yours are a bit more similar.

Yeah.

But like, still, how do you manage that? Did you not find like. I mean, I guess it's ironic me asking this because I was the fucking same. But by definition you can't focus on two things. So so many people manage it.

Yeah. I've seen so many people say that and it's true. It's. It's so hard managing two brands like you. You can't put 100 of your effort into two.

Yeah.

You can only do one. But at the moment I can see both brands becoming successful. So there has been like. It's been so hard trying to manage two. Especially when I try to scale two brands at a time. It takes up so many energy. So much energy. Yeah. But I can see if you had.

To pick one now, I don't have to bin the other one. Which one, which one would it be? Which one would you pick to keep?

Oh my goodness.

On the spot. I want a real answer. Someone put a gun to your head and said right now you have to bin one off and keep the other one.

It'd have to be the sort of drop shipping one at the minute.

You keep that.

I would bin that off. Even though it's done more revenue, more profit.

So you'd keep Sans Pro.

Yeah, yeah.

Baba's pronunciation. And why is that? Just because it's been around longer.

Like you just at the minute you.

See a lot more long term potential.

And it's taken off like the percentage difference to last year. We're talking like thousands of percent different in sales and the amount of money I've put in stock recently. I mean I probably spent about six figures on stock recently.

Yeah.

So the amount of money that's gone into it and it's been going longer as well. It's like, it's almost like your baby as well when you start it. From literally 100 T shirts to. Yeah. To where it is now. Yeah. It's hard to let. Probably let that one go.

Yeah, definitely.

Even though I can see the drop shipping one turning into big brand in the future.

And how soon are you planning to. You mentioned planning to develop that into like.

It's basically in the works at the minute. We've got some stock of it in the warehouse, but just not all the products are.

Yeah.

Fully branded and customized and that. So that'll be sort of the end of this year. Maybe next year will fully transition because I think we just peaked out at the drop shipping. Yeah. Like I said before, there's only so far you can take it with like the feedback score and even though that's not a huge problem for us, but you just want to deliver a product.

That'S.

Like the best you can do really. And with dropshipping.

So you're building more barriers to entering it, less competition the second you start stocking.

Yeah, that's probably why I won't mention it at the minute because people still can go in and sort of like take it and replicate it and stuff like that.

Yeah. There's some 15 year old kid right now watching this who's gonna go rip your store and it's all over.

There probably is to be fair. They probably already found it out but yeah, I just like to keep it quiet at the minute.

Yeah. That's the thing with drop shipping. I remember back in the day when I was doing big numbers of dropshipping like you wouldn't tell anyone your store.

It'S literally so secret, so replicatable. Yeah.

Which is like, it's funny but it's also like, it's funny because it was bad.

Like if someone can replicate your business overnight then yeah, we've got like a problem. They can just undercut you in margins. If you got better ads.

Yeah.

Instantly your business is gone. So yeah, that's why I don't see any long term. Yeah. Success in dropshipping but for getting cash at the start and learning skills it's. You can't do anything better.

100%. It's like the ultimate, the ultimate ecom education.

Yes.

It's the only ecommerce education. I don't know how the fuck people. Well I mean to be fair like there are people that have started not doing drop shipping but usually different, different circumstances they've either had money from somewhere or I guess taking different risks, etc. Yeah, I agree. I think it's the best way to start thousands.

Without that I've. Sans Pro wouldn't be where it is today to be honest because I would have run out of money and.

Yeah.

Gone back to probably a job somewhere.

And don't say that you wouldn't do that.

Yeah, imagine that.

And at what point did Sans Prior becomes Pro Me, sorry, Sans Pro become self sustaining without needing the other brand because assuming that happened at some point.

Yeah. Probably last year.

Yeah.

I'd say we started doing decent sort of numbers.

Yeah.

There's enough stock in the, in the warehouse to sort of like not need the other brand if that makes sense. Because before that would do like I don't know like 500 pieces of one and then run out and have to wait the next lot. Yeah, we didn't have the cash to sort of buy thousands of items and yeah it's. Yeah it's a poor sort of cash business at the start because of how much money you need to put in. Yeah, a lot of people don't. Well a lot of people realize it when they get into like sort of stock businesses when you're coming from like basically nothing.

Yeah. I think particularly clothing.

Yeah.

Because yeah it hasn't. Wasn't my main thing but I did do clothing in the past and yeah me like even looking at it now I think like obviously sizing is one thing that you don't get in a lot of other products. Quite high weight for shipping. Like I mean. Yeah, loads of things like even just.

Typically down to the designs and manufacturer. Like to get everything spot on on your order.

Yeah. A lot of sampling.

So yeah there's so much sampling and sample fees are so high.

Yeah, like so high.

We just sampled like a few jackets at the moment. It's thousands of pounds for just samples.

Because one offs and it like. Yeah, fucking print fees like molds, whatever it is. Like. Yeah, it's actually mad. I think stock, yes, stock is one of the hardest things. I mean again I've never done it like large scale with clothing but even jewelry it was difficult and like the margins on jewelry are like 95. 90 to 95 gross margin on the product. 90 probably.

You had a third party warehouse. Yeah, right.

Yeah. James and James.

Yeah, I was looking at them the other day.

Use them now.

Would you not.

They're fucking shit now. I don't care if they're watching. They were great to begin with. I recommended a load of people that got really expensive because I've seen a.

Few brands that use them. I know.

Yeah, quite a few. I know quite a few brands.

Is it crafted London?

I do believe. Crafted. Use them. Yeah. And tally. Use them.

Yeah.

Grace Beverly.

Quite a few big brands use them. Yeah.

I mean maybe, maybe I just had a bad experience. I don't think they're very good. They don't even give you an account manager. You could be giving them 30 grand a month and they won't even give you an account manager. It's like, come on, you call up and you get like some Polish member of staff answer it.

No way.

That's not me being offensive but it's just the truth.

It's just hard to work around when you don't have like full Control or you're not getting responses back quickly.

Just on that though, like obviously you do your own warehousing. Yeah, I've never done that. I went from either having stuff my room originally, then drop shipping, then 3 PL for that brand. Like in my mind having never done warehousing myself, I can't see why you wouldn't use a 3 PL. Like I can imagine the only benefit is potentially cheaper to do yourself.

Yeah. At the minute.

Why?

The unit that we rent is quite cheap for the amount of space and office space we get.

Yeah.

But I just can't seem to. I like having full control and if someone, if something goes wrong somewhere and I can't fix it quickly for. For a customer, dog's going crazy or something goes wrong with the shipping or I don't know, it could be anything. If I don't have full control over it, it's like a. I sort of get like a bit paranoid like because I can't fix it straight away.

And I like this playing devil's advocate here because again I've never not done 3 PO. Like the two things I'd say to that is, firstly, do you not think a dedicated fulfillment company has a. Like you're leveraging all their systems and shit and their experience and ultimately they should be better at it than you because they're doing it for hundreds of brands, you know, millions of orders a year. And secondly, like why do you want to be physically having to worry about shipping out an order when you can just press a button online and pay some stuff?

Yeah, I mean that's true really. Sort of. With the drop shipping one brand we're looking at doing maybe a third party ligurist. It's because there isn't enough storage at our warehouse at the moment for both brands because they're growing so fast. That's something I'll probably look into in the future. But because I haven't done it, I don't really know sort of the ins and outs of it.

Yeah. It seems quite the same with me. The opposite way to be fair.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just feel like I wouldn't want to have to be in it. Like have to be in the warehouse.

Yeah.

Like for example, could you just off to Dubai tomorrow for a month or would that be a problem?

I'd have to put a few things in place. But yeah, there is that limiting sort of. Yeah, I probably couldn't. To be fair, I'd have to put a few things in place with sort of employees and that. But yeah, that's. That's the only downfall, I'd say. And it's interesting, something that you have to kind of like pick and choose really. If I didn't have. Well, luckily my dad has that that year, that warehouse that I rent off in. But if I didn't have that, third party logistics would be that. Because the amount you pay for warehousing at a minute so much and yeah, it's probably cheaper, easier, quicker to use third party logistics.

Yeah. So two brands then.

Yeah.

At what point do you reckon both will be fully like stock in the uk? Not drop shipping. Is that obviously they'll be definitely next year. Yeah, yeah.

I mean Sans Pro is not drop shipping. It's never has been from the start, but the other one. Yeah. Next year we're gonna have a big go at it. I've finally got like enough cash to give it a big shot.

Yeah.

Yeah. Whereas before I was just saving up cash because it's gonna need a lot, really, the amount of stock we're. And orders. We process that. Yeah, it's gonna need a lot.

And have you got like exact goals for both brands for like the business as a whole over the next few years or are you really just.

Yeah.

Going on right now at the minute.

We'Re kind of like going at it. But I do have sort of a few goals that I might. I eventually want to sell one, maybe two, but what would I do after two? You know, it's like that. I think you've mentioned in previous podcasts where you're not just going to sit on a beach for. You probably do it for a few months and then get bored and then what's next? You're gonna start another brand or. I don't know really. It's one of them that's. I'd have to be there. It depends on the amount and yeah, the cash that they're offering. But yeah, yeah, it'd have to be 50 million or something. But we're quite a way off there yet.

But yeah, well, yeah, maybe not. I mean, I don't know, but. So do you currently still live at home then or.

No. Yeah, I could move out but I don't have a girlfriend or anything at the moment. So.

Yeah, it was funny you say that because Jordan from previous episode, when this comes out, just fairly well, I guess fairly similar because he's got a clothing brand as well and he's still his own.

Is he?

Yeah, I didn't expect. I mean there's anything wrong with that, but I just didn't expect it.

No, I mean he could probably move the amount of money he's turning over at the minute. He could easily probably move out, but.

Oh, 100. So could you. But yeah, yeah, it's just interesting.

So could I. But I wouldn't even. I don't think it'll be healthy living on my own without seeing people because I'll be at a screen all day at the office and I'll come home, I'll be on my laptop. I mean, I do that anyway. But not having people around you or speaking to people, it's I've struggled with in past life. You get like mental health issues and. Yeah, it's quite like a. Yeah, I wasn't in a good place early this year. Probably start last end of last year as well. Just things going wrong. But having people around you just helps overcome it as well.

Yeah, yeah, because it can be quite home for a while, I mean like between traveling or whatever. But then obviously moved to London like two and a half years ago. Yeah, it was in like a hustle house spec obviously just surrounded by like other entrepreneurs and shit. And that's kind of my circle now. And have you got any mates then, like in terms of like actually like where you're working from around you? Yeah, so I've got a couple doing similar stuff.

Yeah, so I've got a couple of mates. The one that we spoke about before, he went to high school with me when we started basically our journey at the same time. And my other mate, he actually works for me. So yeah, he's starting something on the side, which I don't really mind, to be honest, but some people would say.

He'S gonna rip your store.

It's not that sort of. He's selling drinks at the moment, so he's just basically trying to take that off. But it's gonna be a long while before it gets some steam and it's gonna need a lot of cash. So he's happy at the minute working for me and yeah learning and stuff like that. So I don't really have much of a problem really.

Yeah.

Interesting because I know a lot of people will like not hire friends because of that and we did have a little bit of trouble at some point, but I won't really go into it. But yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's a difficult one. It's interesting like that you like still live at home and previous guest does because. Yeah, I feel like obviously like the. Certainly in the uk my experience of like young E. Comm. Entrepreneurs is basically there's not very many. There's definitely More in America, because culturally America is like way more entrepreneurial. It's actually kind of mad. It feels like everyone fucking knows everyone. Like I'll probably have every E Comm entrepreneur under the age of 30 on this podcast in the next year and there'll be like 40 people. That's what it feels like. I mean, it won't literally be that, but it's actually quite a mad small.

Like, group of people when it's growing as well. Like so many more people getting into the space. But it is so early. But it is so hard now. But there, there it is quite easy with drop shipping and that. But I mean, it's not easy, but it's a lower barrier. Barrier to entry.

I mean, yeah, dropship is definitely the place to get started. I feel like. What am I trying to say? I mean, like. Like, for example, if I started drop shipping today, I think I can make it work. It's got experience. Even though it'd be harder than probably in the past.

Yeah.

But the flip side would be I've got more experience now. So, like, because, for example, if you fucking lost everything tomorrow, which I fucking felt like I nearly did last year, you'd be able to start tomorrow. Yeah, way easier.

Yeah.

And you know, people that could, you know, the skills, you know the suppliers, you know what to do. Do you know what I mean?

So even with like shipping and. Yeah, just finding agents and I mean, hiring as well, that was a big sort of scary point for me.

Yeah.

At the time I really needed like a customer service agent. I just. I was doing everything. Everything myself. So that needs to get done and. What's he doing?

Dog's going crazy. He's going absolutely crazy.

Yeah. So I search YouTube and Google on how to like hire people on upwork and I found one called Online Jobs.

Ph. I used that a lot in the.

Past, which is the Philippines, if anyone doesn't know. But yeah, it's cheaper work. We. I interviewed a few people. I put like a little message at the bottom saying it. If you. I think I saw it. Was it Econ Beast?

I know what you're going to say.

I think you did a video on it.

You put like some test.

You put like a.

See if they're reading properly.

Yeah, See if they're reading it properly. Yeah. I used to filter it down to. Yeah. The people who actually read it and yeah, Jackie, we've got. Now, she's been with us for over a year now, so.

So how many people do you have across both brands?

Both brands. There's Two people, three people. Including. Including. That's it, yeah.

How is it so little?

Some people, yeah, that's what I mean.

Well, yeah, I mean if you're doing seven figures. More than seven figures.

Yeah. I mean it's possible, but yeah, it.

Is possible to be fair. Yeah.

Next year there's going to be a point where I need to hire again, but we'll come to it. But yeah, people assume you're doing little numbers if you've got like one or two employees.

I don't know why I said that. I mean, yeah, to be fair, I reckon you can do like 10 million a year with five people.

And you.

Use that automation because like customer service, for example. Do you use that gorgeous. What do you use?

We use Zendesk.

Yeah, same shit.

Integrates with Shopify. Yeah.

But you can just like automate, you know, 90% of it in it because like it's the 820 rule.

It's the. Basically the same messages. There's only like a couple that 80%.

Of messages, you know are the same on there.

Where's my order?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Just set up an automated thing. Yeah, so true. And then obviously you get those. The odd Karen that.

Oh, we've had so many Karens all my days.

What's the worst customer service story you've ever heard? If you. I don't know if you got a bad one. I'm just asking this on the spot. I've got a lot.

I tell you what, we had a. Last year when Covid hit the suppliers couldn't send out orders and all my. We had thousands of emails for the drop shipping brand and that was probably my lowest point of owning the brand to be honest. I just thought there was no way out.

I wasn't gonna charge backs and shit.

I was getting chargebacks, everything. Just reading through the amount of hate and it gets to, you know, like if you're personally responding to them emails.

And don't be doing that when it's going bad.

Yeah, when it's going bad it's, you know, I had to personally email all the customers with discounts off the next order and refund shipping and yeah, there were thousands of customer ads that. Yeah, I just had to stop orders really.

Yeah.

Just focus on the customer experience. I just dedicated basically a few months just to reply to everyone because it's the best thing to do really. I couldn't left deal wise.

You got any stories of like specific psycho customers? There must be one or two or did you get off lightly?

No, there I'm trying to think now. There's been so many.

You ever had a customer call your personal number and wonder how they got the number?

I have had that before because a lot.

Quite well I say a lot and I was wondering if they might have that, including me.

Yeah, I wondered how they found my number. They managed to find my number somewhere. But yeah, luckily that got resolved. But yeah, there has been quite a few but it's hard to like pick one off the top of your head.

Yeah. Well I remember it's actually with Midnight City. So a brand that wasn't very problematic. Ironically I was on the plane literally about, about to go to Ibiza in 2019 this last holiday and I get a text from this. I'm not exaggerating this from some bloke on WhatsApp. I'm thinking oh for four sake. And he's got a picture of me when I was like 16 from school. Like a yearbook picture which isn't on my Instagram, but it's not.

How did you find you though?

I don't know. I mean probably got my number. I don't know how I got my number. Maybe like some old original email. So you know, some like left it somewhere.

I'll tell you what, the crafty though, aren't they the way.

But yeah, he sent it. I don't know where he got this. And bear in mind this is over like a 30 quid chain which had like next day shipping. It wasn't even drop shipping. So this was like the weirdest thing. This was the only time it's ever happened for this brand. Had a lot of abuse on the neon side. But we've been over that and yeah, he sent me a picture of me from like my 2011, our 12 year book. And I was like, where the fuck you get that from? And like Dom's like that. Like you're probably speaking with a school shooter. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you do. 100,000 orders over two years or whatever. It only takes 0.001% to be like a handful of people and then that.

Person gets you as well.

Yeah.

When stuff like that happens and I.

Remember, take it personal, I refunded him and fucking, you know, say sorry and all this bollocks. But I'm still thinking like, where the hell did he get that picture from? Like, what's this done doing? Yeah, there's some very like dangerously sad people out there.

Yeah, there is it.

And running anything online just exposes you to elements of that.

Yeah, it's so easy now just a quick search and then find your name and call you out for something and start threatening you if. Because their order's not arrived or it's late. Even if you've refunded them, the. The amount of messages we've got that you just look at it and go, how have you sent that? It's. We've basically refunded you or give them a free product or something and they're.

Still like, they want like compensation.

Yeah, we'll sue you, we'll take you to court, we'll have.

Every single one of those messages has never come to fruition in my experience.

No, they haven't.

No. I've had a guy send me so many stories like this, I actually had a guy send a fucking letter to my accountant. He's obviously found the company name, etc, saying he wanted like three grand compensation for gdpr, like breaking GDPR laws, saying that he unsubscribed from an email list and got one email or something, which, I don't know, maybe like klaviyo didn't work or something. Like, what the is he on about?

I've got some funny stories on the.

Edition, obviously, but like, it's just. Where have these doms got the time for that?

Yeah.

Is it between like coming home from the pub and beating their wife? They send these like cryptic emails to random brands trying to get money out of people.

It's just. Yeah. You never hate on anyone doing better than unions. Yeah, well, it's just.

Well, yeah, that's so true. But like, even beyond that, it's like anyone, any level of like decent existence has. Doesn't hate on random people. It's just like. Yeah. Such a low point.

Yeah. I've got a quite funny there a story actually from when you said about that. What's the ged? Is it the gdpr, the data protection? Is that like a leak?

Yeah, I probably get fucking cancelled. I don't really know that much about it. But yeah, obviously it came out and there was like, people have to confirm their email and. Yeah. Before they could receive marketing promotion. Yeah, that sort of thing.

Yeah. Sorry, it's not on sort of that sort of topic, but we had. Well, back in the day I used one of these influencer pictures and I photoshopped my products.

I've done that. I've done that.

I photoshopped my product on her. Should I say? They sort of found out and I denied it and said it was just like a customer image they sent in and they were like threatening legal action and they. They drafted up like an invoice that I had to pay, but I just. I just ignored it. But at the time, I was so desperate for making sales and stuff. I know it sounds bad in that, but.

Yeah, this is the thing, though. Like, I've got another story on that, which I'll say in a second, but, like, there's two ways of looking at that. Like, you know, a Karen or whatever. Just like some cunt that doesn't get it. We'll look at that and say, oh, that's breaking the law or whatever. But the other side of that is, at the end of the day, you're like a young entrepreneur that's fucking hustling to make shit happen.

Yeah.

There's two ways of looking at many things in life and, like, particularly when you're a bit younger or a bit more, like, inexperienced, ultimately if you're not.

Causing harm or damage, that's like badass.

Shit to do, in my opinion. Like, it's just. It's like the game. I actually did a fucking funny one, to be fair on that topic. Who actually did it? I think this was back in, like, March last year when Neon was starting to take off, I think. I think it was actually. I was. I think I might have been still running the ads before I got an agency doing it. I didn't Photoshop anything. I literally just took a picture of Kylie Jenner that was on Instagram with her with a neon sign.

Yeah.

And just started running it as Kylie Jenner with her sign from us. Right.

Yeah.

I just thought nothing of it. I thought, fuck this. Like, I don't care. Like, I didn't really say it was hours are. And just started running it.

It's just flying.

And then again, like the next day, like a legal letter on email from her solicitor or whatever. I'm thinking, me, this is quick. Like, nothing actually came of it. But I think what she had. And I later found out, like, celebrities of that scale have an automated. It was completely automated. There's no way that was someone manually sending that, really. They'll have a thing that literally, like technology that searches for use of their images and name so they can automatically go after people.

I heard of that before because I.

I think the email has some, like, hyperlink or whatever, like sent by or whatever. And then I back searched it. But it was quite interesting because I thought there's no way. Like, how would they notice that it only had like 10,000 impressions overnight or something? I wasn't even putting budget behind it at this point, but that was quite funny because they were like, I mean they just said, take it down or we'll do this. Okay, I just saw a mistake, you know, but it wasn't me that did it.

I've got a few stories of that. All right, sorry, I thought you paused. Yeah. So with the drop shipping brand, was it last year? It might have been. Last year we got threatened by a billion dollar company.

Oh really?

Yeah, because one of our products was slightly similar to theirs. They literally had everything on us. They had my address, they had the products. They drafted up like a hundred page document, PDF document, sent it over to us. And what was the company.

Gonna put it out now?

It might give away the products.

Okay, yeah, I think I know who you're gonna say.

Louis Vuitton sort of level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just got that sinking feeling when that email came in. I was like, that's it, the brand's dead now, everything's gone. But yeah, and it happened again. Another company tried to sue us for.

So how'd you get around that?

Basically got rid of the product.

Was it just one product then?

It wasn't like maybe a couple of products. I had to give all my details, manufacturer details. They weren't the manufacturers. I just found some random sort of AliExpress link in that. But yeah, yeah, we got over that. Managed. I don't think we paid. No, we didn't pay anything. A few months later down the line, another one threatened us. Another billion dollar. Yeah, sort of company. I do think I just like, not again.

If you're not getting any of that, you're probably not.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, like if you're not getting any of that shit in general, enough people aren't seeing what you're doing.

I thought I'd just pay. Played stupid because they were. Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize. We just bought it from this link and then we don't hold any stock of it or anything and we managed to wiggle our way out. But at the time it was so scary because I've never had that situation before. It's. Yeah, it's. It was sort of personal because I was self employed at the time. It could have, they could have sued me or I don't know how it had like the legal system works or whatever. But yeah, it could have gone down bad.

I had another one actually. I mean there was a few. But one notable one again with Neon is quite problematic cuz like so many different designs and shit and it was some Artists. I'm not gonna say her name.

I've said I've heard that. Was that on a trust pilot review or something?

Probably.

I think I've seen.

Well, there's actually quite a few, but I'm not sure if you know which one I'm talking about. But there was some major apparently faint. I actually genuinely did not know who the fuck she was at the time and still don't care who she is. But she's some big London based artists. I'm not gonna say her name. And I ended up having to pay 1500 quid in damages and bollocks. And like I did my research and who this person apparently is, like, I'm not really in the art scene so I didn't know who the she was. And basically like two things. They were claiming that some design that was not even similar was like her design. I'm just thinking like, it's not even the same. And secondly, like, this is some multi millionaire artist. Why the fuck do they care what some little bedroom brand? Well, I guess millions people seeing the ads and shit. But like why? I don't know. I think, I think there's a line.

Where like they feel like entitled to their cut.

Yeah, I thought, I think I remember just replying like kind of exaggerating it, like, oh, I'm some like young entrepreneur. I'm so sorry, I don't even know the fuck you are. Which I genuinely didn't. But it's like it wasn't even the same. It's like I think Taylor Swift famously tried to trademark some word from a song.

Right. All right.

I think it was like shake it off or something. It was like something like that, like, like a phrase that is so commonly used it would just be ludicrous to try and trademark.

Yeah.

And then there's a big outlet out, outcry, whatever, big backlash. I remember this not very distinctly, but it was something like that. And then she got in trouble and then she like didn't trademark it. But it's kind of a similar thing. It's like, do these brands not realize that firstly not everyone is just copying you and like, because at the end of the day, like a product is going to be similar to another product. There's like 7 billion people in the world, probably fucking 100,000 brands. A million brands. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean even in like the sort of fashion niche, there's so many sort of brands copying each other's and it's basically like dog eat dog really.

And it seemed like Particularly fashion, to be fair.

Yeah, particularly fashion and them sort of like niches and that. But, yeah, I've had. I've had a few similar stories. It's like that. Where they were asking for money because I'd use the pitches I shouldn't have done, really. But these things, you've got to start somewhere and. Yeah, back to, like that Photoshop thing. Like, it's such a good skill to have. But I think you mentioned it, another podcast, was it Tyler, that Photoshopped some numbers around.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I've done like a few addresses and Stone, like, stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, you just ha. When you like your backs up against the wall, you've got to do stuff like that to get yourself.

It's what. It's entrepreneur. It's like hustle.

You just find a way.

Yeah, that's what it is.

Because normal people just come up to, like, that sort of hurdle. I've heard stories before. And then not go anywhere with it.

Yeah.

And then, oh, my brand didn't do this. Or can you help me with this because it's not safe.

Yeah, 100 agree. You've got to have that, like, Hustler's Edge, like, at the end of the day, like, what are you willing to do to get past the problem?

I mean, I was literally willing to do absolutely anything. I was. Yeah. To get that car that I wanted and them brands that I always dreamed about owning one day.

Yeah.

I was literally willing to do anything at that time.

I think you have to be. And, like, you can see it, like, people that have it or don't have it, and it's like, they just get that element of it, you know what I mean? Whereas other people think, like. Oh, like. Like people that would have taken the piss out of you at the start or whatever. Like, why would you do that?

Yeah. And, you know, people want to skip that journey as well. And. Yeah, that's where, like, the foundations are built.

Yeah. Like, just on that as well, then. So coming to, like, the car.

Yeah.

And I had the same car in the past, and not the exact same, but, like, the same. The Audi R8.

Yeah. I think it was a 2014 model, wasn't it?

I think I had a 24, 2013. Mine's a V10 Plus. I think it was.

Yeah, mine's a 2012 V10.

Different exhaust in it.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I had the. The big. The big circle.

Yeah. Mine are like the oval sort of shapes.

Yeah. I think they changed them three times if there was the. They had the two exhaust on each side.

That was the V8 one. Yeah.

Then the big circle and then it was the facelift which I then had after. But just on that car. So. Yeah. Because I can obviously completely relate to like going after like material things in that respect and everything. And it's like. I think it's way deeper than just like a car. It like symbolizes like achieving shit and so on.

To me it was like a big sort of fuck off really to other people because they kept saying that I wouldn't do this and I won't do that.

Yeah.

It was basically like, right, I've got this, you can't say anything else. And no one really like took the piss after that, to be honest.

Oh, geez. I mean, hope not.

Yeah, it's like you just have to like get it out your system. I think if I didn't get that out my system, I would still be sort of like not mad. But you'd still have that sort of.

Get that chip off your shoulder.

Yeah, you just need to get it out your system.

I think I definitely went through that. But like, obviously it's. It's sick. Yeah. Especially when you want that from a young age and whatever. But have you has your view on like the value of that now? Changed.

Completely changed.

He's kind of got over it.

It's the first, I'd say say six months was, wow. I've got this car that no one.

Mine for three months. I was mentally ill before I changed it.

Yeah, I was. Yeah, maybe. Probably about six months later I was looking at the new V10 plus and I was like, why am I looking at that car? I've just got this car that I've always dreamed of.

Yeah.

Now I'm looking at new cars and Lambos and there's always some at. There's always that next step and when do you stop like that. The fulfillment goes out of that car. It's like the. How do you put it? It's like that shiny object sort.

Of.

I've gone off there.

It's 100% sure. I'm just looking at his fucking sleepy face, this dog. It's 100% shine object syndrome.

Yeah.

Like. And. Yeah. It took me a while to realize that. And then it's like, oh, shit, it's.

Just a car now. Yeah. It's basically just a car.

Still sick. But yeah, the magic goes from it once.

Yeah. It just.

Because it's like previously it was a goal, whereas now it was a goal that Symbolized something, whereas once you get it, it's just a piece of metal.

It's just a car. Yeah, it's exact same, man. I think people don't realize. I didn't realize that until you have to go through that 100, you've got to go through it. Unless. Because I was thinking, I'd rather cry my Ferrari than be sat in Gary Vee.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that still is true, to be fair.

Yeah.

But.

But this. Yeah, it's sort of like the same. Sort of like, principle. But, yeah, the. The wildness factor soon fades.

Really. Yeah.

I mean, it's still cool in that.

Do you reckon you'll keep it for a while?

I was looking to change it recently, but got a big tax bill, so I'm just gonna wait for that.

Yeah, exactly. Get a fucking Tesla or something.

Yeah.

And you said you don't have a girlfriend.

No.

Have you, like. Have you seen. Have you experienced more female attention since having that car? Because that's kind of like. That's. That's what people would want to ask.

Yeah. So, to be honest, it's more guys than girls. You get more attention from guys and I'd say girls that. Yeah, yeah. You get the odd one that. Maybe. I don't want to say, like, a gold digger or anything, but.

But I got it.

You can instantly tell. Yeah, but, yeah, more guys than girls, to be honest.

Yeah. And do you think having. Not that you fucking need a girlfriend at 22? I didn't fucking. I didn't have a girlfriend until quite recently. Certainly not when I was 22. Do you think being, like, an entrepreneur makes it harder.

Yeah, definitely.

To have, like, relationships and like, even just, like.

Yeah, Even, like, their time commitments and stuff like that. If they're constantly texting you and they're wanting you around at this sort of. And you've got stuff to do. I mean, two brands, it. And I do other stuff as well, which we might get onto in a minute. But, yeah, it's. It's a lot to handle at my sort of age, when everyone's out partying and. Yeah. All they've got to worry about is basically, like, uni work and stuff like that, where I'm dealing with, like, thousands of customer things and orders not being so true.

It's a different life.

Yeah.

Do you go out at all and do you, like, party or whatever?

I mean, to be honest, I don't.

Yeah.

I've never really done it since I left school, because since I left school, started the brands, it's basically Been my life ever since.

Yeah.

I mean, I do go out and stuff, but not to the point of where the average person does.

Yeah.

I had to do like a. Had to do. I had to make a lot of sacrifices when I was like, younger. Turn friends down and lost quite a few friends with it. Just not understanding and missing sort of parties and.

You have to start playing some fucking sad piano music.

I mean, it's true, though. Yeah. But I was just so determined to get where I wanted to get. Everything else was just secondary, really. I mean. Yeah.

And you mentioned other things you do.

Yeah.

So what other things you do?

I invest in quite a bit in crypto and do stocks and stuff like that. You like day trade more recently? Yeah. Because the markets, especially the crypto market's been quite up and down recently.

Yeah.

I made quite a bit last year. Pulled it all out. That's basically just gone stock. Gone into more stock and E comm stuff. It's like a cycle.

Yeah.

So when it comes in from Ecom, goes into like stocks and cryptos and then if I do make some money on there, it comes back out and back into the brands.

Yeah. Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. Crypto is a weird one.

Yeah. I've been. I've been doing it since 2017 and I've seen quite a few of the market cycles and you sort of learn when to sort of get in and out of the market and you sort of learn the market behavior and not being too greedy as well, because on the first time I invested, it went up quite a bit and then we had a crash. When Was the crash? 28, 2018.

Yeah. I mean, a few major crashed in it then. Like this year it's been pretty up and down.

Yeah. I think it was January started to pick up. Yeah.

Everyone buying, like, buying.

Then the meme coins that came out.

March, April, there was. That was when, like meme coins are going mad.

Jake, Paul. Coming out, I actually invested in one of them. I lost all my money, really.

But it was just like a safe. Moon was one.

Yeah.

I wonder if this shit's even legal, to be honest. Those are shit coins.

Yeah. There's a podcast that someone didn't. They'll all get done for it. They'll get found out because it's. It's basically what they did at Wall Street. It's market manipulation.

Yeah. Like rug pulls, aren't they?

Yeah.

Loads of hype. Get like 100 million valuation, building it.

Up and then they pull out and then let everyone else drop. They'll get.

It's Actually mad.

Yeah.

It's like full scale scam basically, is a lot of it.

Basically like what Jordan Belfort did in that sort of. That sort of era.

The wolf of.

The Wolf of Wall street, the Wolf.

Of Binance or something. Yeah, the next one.

I mean a lot of people did make a lot of money on that. I know quite a few people have put like a couple of hundred quid and turned it into a hundred thousand pound off a couple hundred. Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Jesus.

Because they went up. So just. Just punts basically. If they go up a few thousand percent then.

But yeah, me.

Because they basically start at 0.00001 and if it goes up to however much then you. Yeah. Made quite a bit of money. But it's a risky game.

It is. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Probably a whole other episode in crypto. I'll probably get someone. I don't really know enough about crypto to really speak about it loads.

I do like it.

I think it's mad.

I think the technology and stuff will replace our money and stuff like that, but gotta be sort of like realistic.

Yeah.

People are saying it's gonna take over the world and it's gonna do bitcoin's gonna go to a million and stuff like that.

But I don't know, I feel like. Yeah, it feels like kind of like the dot com boom. Not that I was that old in the dot com boom. It was probably four years old. But yeah, I don't know. It's mad. Like I think there's like a new.

One every 10 years or so that something comes around that's sort of similar.

Yeah, so true. So coming back to the brands then, obviously you're still young. You make me feel old, which is sad.

But how old are you now?

25.

25, but still young.

Yeah, I've been around the block a few different things. How long do you see yourself being in this? Well, firstly in like the fashion game.

Yeah.

Like I guess kind of asked it earlier. Like, have you thought about it? Like, I mean, obviously everyone says, oh, they want to sell the business. But if you thought about what you potentially do after, obviously it's still very early in the game.

I mean, I have thought about it a little bit, but it's just coming back to the thing. What would you do after you've like, I'd get bored. I can't sit at home and I'll go. I'll probably go traveling for a bit if I did sell the brand for a bit like a good summer money. But yeah, there's it comes to a point maybe, maybe like a year down the line where you need to get back in. Into something or put your mind would just make me go crazy, I think not having something to look forward to and just like goals as well. I remember when I got the R8, that was like my ultimate goal. I ticked it off and I didn't set any goals higher than that. And I was in like a. I got a bit complacent and results started dropping. Yeah, it's just not a good place to be really, when you don't really have any like ambitions or. Yeah. Goals. But yeah.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think. Yeah, it's like kind of a deeper point, but it's just a love for.

The game, I think.

Yeah, exactly. Like, that's exactly what I was going to say. Like when you tick off a few goals and like, obviously like there's more things you could do, whatever, like go and become Elon Musk or whatever. But how many? One. One.

It's not even 1%. It's like 0.0%. And is he happy doing that? He's just like a genetic freak and.

He'S like Zuckerberg and well, he's 0.0%. I say, well, in terms of the world, it's probably 0.0000001%.

But yeah, but yeah, he's doing cool stuff though, ain't he?

Yeah. I think when you realize, like you tick off a few little childhood goals which, like, for a lot of guys it's genuine, like cars and stuff, you know, and then you realize, oh, that's cool, but it's not what I thought it was then it's like, oh, fuck. I think the thing that actually like gives me any sort of fulfillment is just like you said, the game.

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's even like the. Just the little tasks of sample coming back just perfect and you release it and yeah, that's. That's what gives me like the most like even seeing like customers wearing the stuff and buying it. And it just gives you that buzz that a card does give you the start, but it soon wears off. Yeah, all the material stick stuff. I'm not wearing any Rolexes or anything. I don't buy any of that sort of stuff, but I would. I was just interested in cars. I always have been. And it was like a life. Not a life, but I wanted to get it by like a certain age. I set myself. If you scroll down on my Instagram, I've got a post from 2017 that this Audi R8 will be mine by 25.

Did it a lot sooner than that. Yeah, similar shit like that. That's cool. If you could speak to your 17 year old self, which is like the most cringe question ever. But looking back now, obviously like still a lot to learn as there is for everyone. But you obviously learned a lot since then. Yeah. When you're getting started, what are the key things you would say to like bear in mind to think about when wanting to start?

Obviously I'd say one, the amount of sacrifice you have to commit to making that brand, that dream come to reality. Say that's probably one of the main ones. And if you are like 17, 18, 19, even 20 plus, but take the risk now, otherwise you're just gonna regret it later. I know I would have done if I didn't start back then. Like I always said to myself, take it now and then. If it doesn't work out, just do something else later on. Yeah. If you don't, if you don't take the risk, you'll never know.

So yeah, I feel like biggest risk is taking no risk. Yeah, it's a cliche, but so true. I also think as well, like, like you were saying before and it's true for a lot of people, like your parents were like, oh, what if it doesn't work out? Blah, blah. But I just honestly believe like if, if you're compounding your efforts and knowledge and network or whatever in a certain general area like E commerce, it's not gonna not work out if you stay in the game.

Yeah.

Even if it takes you till 30, 40 fucking 50 years old.

It took me literally, I'd probably say three, four years to finally see something that my dad turned around and looked because I had like sales target on my whiteboard in the office. I was like, dad, I'm gonna get this 100k a month and do all this. And then he didn't believe it until I finally showed him proof of like screenshots and I ticked it off.

Yeah.

And he's like, right, I believe you know and yeah.

Yeah, that's what it takes. Yeah, it's mad.

I mean no one's gonna give you the. No one like helps you in the beginning. It's only when they see sort of like results that the not jump on board, but they finally give you.

Everyone's your fucking friend when shit's going well. And also on the flip side, no one seems to be a friend apart from a very few select real ones when stuff's not Going well.

Yeah.

And it's important to identify those people and, you know, like, the ones that are there from the start, which is rare usually. Yeah, there's not many of them, so. No.

Yeah, definitely.

And it's a lonely road, I think.

Yeah.

People that. I guess most people watching this shit are either in the trenches, want to be in the trenches, or, you know, like on that path somehow. But it's just. Yeah, it really is like 1% of people, maybe less, I think, that are probably getting after it, doing their own shit. If it's really what, you know, what you're made for and it's all you want to do, then you'll find a way as well. The trenches.

Yeah, you'll find a way because everyone wants, like, the shortcut route and quick money, and I did at the start, but you just got to go through that to finally get where you want to be, really. And if you want to make that sort of money, you're going to have to get in the trenches, do stuff you don't want to do. But you'll soon realize if you're built for it. And I don't. Wouldn't say built for it, but if. Yeah, it's. It's a hard game.

Yeah. I just think. I think, honestly, most people aren't, and.

That'S why they drop off after.

Yeah. I think that's where I like. Like the potential to make money is, like, one thing, but it shouldn't even be about the money if you really built for it. I mean, like I said this in a previous episode. You have to love it. Otherwise.

Yeah, I think it's too painful. It was all about the money. I was literally obsessed with the money and stuff. But then I got past that stage and it's not really about the money anymore because it honestly doesn't make you that much happier, to be honest. There's like a certain. I think you've said it before in another podcast. There's like a certain level you get to where it doesn't make much of a difference. Past that point.

Yeah. Just gotta love what you're doing.

Yeah.

Love the trenches.

Love the game.

Exactly. That's it. Well, yeah, I'm excited to see where you take it. We could probably go on for hours about loads of, like, deep tangents and.

Shit, but, yeah, definitely.

Unless there's anything else you want to dive into, then I reckon that's a solid episode.

Perfect.

Wrap it up. And he's fallen asleep.

He's finally gone.

Yeah. I guess with that said, we'll wrap it up there, then. So thanks for watching as. As I'm saying in every episode and I listen to this wherever the fuck you please, whether that's Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube episodes every week, which is still a. I've said that. I said I'll do at least a year of every week, which is gonna be difficult. I think this is episode eight at this point, but we're getting there. And yeah, subscribe to the pod, share the pod if you're enjoying it and we'll see you on the next one. Cheers for watching.