From Drop shipping at 18 to $15m Skincare Brand at 24 - Jordan Smyth | The Midnight Pod Episode 70

New Poor with Jordan Smythe. So we started doing BTS at the start of these episodes. Your first podcast here in Lighthouse, Bali. He's shitting himself. That's why he got a bottle of wine. You don't get this set up in London. Jordan Smythe on the Midnight Pod. That's fine, honestly. On the merlot of.

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Let's fucking go. We're back with the Midnight Pod Episode 70, which feels like a milestone episode. We're also in the most fucking fancy studio I've ever recorded an episode in. We had about six people only. The only people didn't have was a fucking makeup artist. But it's nearly as good as that. We've got Jordan Smythe. This feels like a lot. Been a long time coming. We've known each other like, what, since September 2017.

I think I was 17 years old. It was my 18th birthday in Singapore. So actually I always talk about that. I think 2015.

No, 2017.

98.

2017.

It was 2017.

I always talk about this trip to Sam Singapore People say, like, how did you meet people? I say, I went to Singapore and that is that event. And that's where I met you.

And so many other people I met. And so many other people as well.

Plenty of other people. Yeah. We probably stayed in touch more since then.

That was the most. That was the most connecting event, you.

Know, that was the start of everything.

It was for me.

I thought about you. Yeah.

I made a lot of my. A lot of my best mates today at that event.

It's crazy.

Vince Idiom in Vietnam. Yeah. Tim, Vince, Tom. Who else was at that event? There was Steven, Evan, Dan.

Obviously they were running early. D to C. Yeah. It's actually like textbook looking back.

And I was 17 because it was my 18th birthday.

Yeah, it was your 18th. It was my 21st, I believe.

How old are you now?

27 now.

Oh, yeah. So it was 2015. Because I'm 19.

No, it was 2015. It was 20,000% agree to disagree.

We have to go back, look at photos.

But anyway, it was a way. I've always said to people it was way back. You were like a econ prodigy at the time because you were so young. Yeah. You're doing crazy numbers, drop shipping. And then your brother Harley, who's we're staying with in like two days time as well, who I've not seen, like three years. Yeah. He was also doing similar. Like 14 years old.

Yeah.

I think we thought it was normal.

We thought doing those numbers were normal. The. The, like, we. We kind of. We started drop shipping, obviously, and. And we got to the point we were probably doing like 1 to 2k per day each. And then we met these two brothers online called Mac and Mike, and they were doing 20 to 30 to 40k per day. And we just saw that as the standard. So then we just worked our asses off and both of us living in the same house, just like competing against each other with our own stores. Harley would stay up till 3am and then I'd be like, all right, I need to stay up with 3am he'll find a winning product. I'd be like, all right, I'm not sleeping till I find a winning product. So there was this, like, internal competition, but we thought it was. We thought it was normal. But, yeah, I remember coming out to Singapore and everyone was like, super impressed with numbers that we're still waiting for.

There to be like. I'm surprised there's not been a Vice documentary yet on early. The early days of drop shipping. Yeah. So it's such an interesting like subculture of entrepreneurship.

So many people started, so many memes.

Around it and it's still going now. I thought it was dead. There's still people fucking drop shipping now. Like.

Yeah, it makes you think like, did.

I stop talking about drop shipping? Yeah.

Did I stop too early?

You're like, yeah, but no, go back. You're from New Zealand. Where in New Zealand?

Christchurch. Yeah, I thought, yeah, South Island.

I've never been. I think my cousin actually moved there.

Yeah, that's cool.

The earlier story go back to maybe childhood. How the did you get into that? Because 99.9% of people do not get into.

Yeah, especially in cart shipping. For sure.

Yeah, especially at that age.

So we are from, my brother and I from Christchurch. I guess I need to include them in part of the story, part of the come up. Probably at around the age of like 12 or 13, I think myself and also Harley as well. Just because we were doing everything that do everything together at the time. We were kind of chasing this like idea of independence and we wanted to find ways, I guess to make money online. I don't know, like it was just something that just came into our life and both of us just had this attention towards it from like a really, really early age. So kind of as you know, any like curious kid would at like 11 or 12, I started to go out and try to find a job. Obviously I found a job at a thing called Darius, like a convenience store in New Zealand. And I just kind of had standard like day to day jobs from about 12 to about 15. And then I think it was Christian Guzman on YouTube actually. Yeah, so many people used to watch him. He was a pretty big inspiration of mine when I was like super young, maybe like 14, 15 years old because I think he was like mid-20s or early 20s. He was starting his gym, he was starting his clothing brand and I think just like watching that vlog content every day, that kind of like sparked something inside of me where, where I, where I wanted to do something similar. So I started this like clothing brand called Olympus Wear and I was like super, super young. Every person starts a clothing brand when they're like going into entrepreneurship. Of course. Yeah. Who doesn't, right? Like everyone's like, okay, I'll put a logo on a T shirt and then everyone's going to flock to it and buy it. But then you realize once your friends and family stop buying, no one else is buying, you know, like, what the hell, what's going on? And that was super early. That was like 15 years old, maybe 14, 15 years old. It was started that went through the process, got the logos done, printed it with a local place in Christchurch, built the website, had heaps of issues there, used WordPress at the time, you know, and just started to move in that direction. And then around the time of launch we found something called Amazon fba. And I think Tai Lopez was talking about it on a YouTube ad. He was talking about Amazon FBA. And the reason why that there kind of sparked some interest, so much interest was the idea that you don't need to market the products because at the same time of me kind of at the same time that we found Olympus Amazon fba, I was struggling with Olympus Wear, which was the clothing brand because I didn't know how to market it. And I was like so confused. And there was this idea around Amazon FBA where you send a, send pallets of inventory into Amazon from China. You look for products that have a, you know, decent sales ranking but all of the competition has pretty low counter reviews strategies to, to like send out a heap of product and then obviously you know, engineer reviews on the listing and then, and then you'd win ranking on, you know, organic search terms for, for products. And it was a pretty simple, you know, process that I could follow and I didn't feel like I had to like market and advertise the product. So lent into that, that was when I was about 15, 16. So you know, after a year or so and then, you know, there's been obviously a few other ventures since. Actually straight after that, sorry, I think Amazon got shut down. I was selling sex toys actually in the sports and outdoors category and on Amazon and I wasn't allowed, I wasn't allowed to be. Yeah, so that was one of the products that was, that had low competition, had a hot sales ranking. So it was selling well and there were barely any reviews on, on the competition.

Were you drop shipping it though? No, no, no.

Amazon fba. So, so buying, buying pallets of inventory and then shipping that over to Amazon FBA and getting them, I guess, you know, working it into the FBA warehouses and then obviously working on that listing and trying to gain ranking on that listing. But I got banned off Amazon from like a really, really realized okay, now I do need to learn marketing and I do need to kind of do something that I'm not just like building a business off of back of this platform that obviously overnight you can just get shut down. So then went into apparel and also print on demand as well where I would contact Instagram pages And this is still at the age of around 15 so I was just doing anything and everything. I think that was kind of like this is the general like topic of of all of these businesses from you know 15 to 18 to 19. I was just doing anything and everything online to try to make good cash to become independent so I could pay for things myself. I don't know what it was. I think it was just like that, that fuel inside of you that you just want to be responsible for your own path, you know. So did a few different business businesses alongside obviously Shopify and and that whole idea about building a store online and then obviously found drop shipping and and went into that and that was kind of. I can't remember how do we find drop shipping? Probably a bunch of YouTubers probably YouTubers and Facebook groups in the standardized ways that anyone, everyone found out about it. The term was probably being used.

I think it was more Facebook groups. I remember being in one Murray Edwards. Remember that guy? Australian guy? Murray Edwards.

Murray Edwards.

Seven figure something. I don't know that was the group I remember.

I don't know.

And then Steve Tan had one.

Yeah they were, they were on, they.

Were, they were big I guess you call it that that we went to.

I was never big on the groups.

World Summit.

Yeah yeah the E Commerce Summit. I was never big on the groups. I was never good at staying active on the groups and talking Even today like you know there's a group that in called E Commerce Fuel which is an incredible group of so many founders. There's like a subgroup in there for eight figure plus businesses and there's so much value being shared in there. Actually my mentor M. I found I, I, I met him in this group as well and yeah I just never been have been good on them but I think it might have been something like that. So anyway I did drop shipping that went quite well for like two and a half three years.

When was this like 20. It was definitely 17 year man by the way. So this would have been 2015 maybe two years.

Yeah, yeah yeah because obviously you need to get to a certain point about to go to Singapore I think before Singapore I was at a mastermind in Greece and that helped elevate the.

With Dimitri Skydis.

With Dimitri Skadatus.

Yeah yeah yeah.

I actually had a call with a.

Few people watching this will know who the I'm talking about.

Yeah yeah he's still in the game. Yeah yeah he's good. He's actually bought a restaurant in some random island Greece and he's Managing that now. I had a go with him the other day, just caught up. Yeah, he's cool. So, so did drop shipping for obviously a few years build a team of. And this is obviously like trying to clump all of these things that happen into like one, five or ten minute intro. Right. But to dropshipping built up a team of around like 20, 30 people based in Southeast Asia that would help me kind of run all the operations. One kind of thing that I focus on or that I focus on in, in those early days and I still have a huge attention towards today is systems and processes. And I really think that's kind of the biggest thing that's allowed me to like scale to high, high points, you know, within a lot of companies that I've kind of built is just because I've looked at things and, and looked at certain systems and processes that need to run in the company and automated those or try to automate them so then I could have more time to put towards, you know, other areas of the company that then you can, you can now black scale obviously, but, but, but yeah, that was definitely a ride going through, going through those drop shipping.

Days and, and how quickly did you find stuff working? I think it's easy to forget that most people that get into that, especially when they're young.

Yeah, of course it doesn't work and.

They give up and go back.

Yeah, of course.

Whatever it is.

I remember, I remember the exact education wise.

You never went to uni, right? Of course.

No. Okay. So just, just high school. Yeah, I finished high school because my mum wanted me to finish high school. Harley didn't finish high school and I think it was because I'm the first child. So like your mum, dad, like they want you to finish high school, you know, like they want that little box for them to tick just themselves. So actually that's quite a funny story. I was in my last year of high school, things were going well. I think I was doing Amazon, fba and this is when I was like starting to go into dropshipping as well. And I was making cash. Like I was making decent money, decent enough money more than anyone in my year or in my school. You know, like I actually had to keep a lot of it a secret. You know, I didn't want to share all the money that I didn't want to share the money that I was making obviously with, with my friends at school. But I remember it was the last year of school and I had exams coming up so I went to the teacher that helps disabled and special needs kids in their final exams to earn more credits so they can pass high school and then obviously be able to go to university. And I went to her and I sat down and I talked about all the things I'm doing, I talked about this business, this business, I'm making this money. And I just told her that like I don't want to do the exams, it's just going to take too much time away from me. I'm on this path right now. She helps disabled kids, she helps special needs kids to. Huh. No, no, no, no, no, no. But that's, that's her job. But I went to her as kind of like a teacher consultant almost. You know how sometimes they have those people inside of schools that are like there to consult students that are having a hard time. So I went to her and I told her the whole story and I asked her to, I asked her what I could do and she gave me two exams which would give me enough credits to pass the year without doing exams. So she gave me two assignments that would give me enough credits to pass the year without doing exams. So I did those. One of them was to interview my mum about her career and another one was to build a cv. And then with those two I was able to pass the year, not do my exam, so I didn't have to study. So when I was in class, when I was in class in the final kind of few months of school, when everyone was studying for their final exams, I was just able to go on my laptop and just work and just, you know, try to work on, just work on my businesses essentially. But so after that never went to uni and just continued on the path that I was on, trying to find these online businesses that I could just grow and scale and obviously drop shipping was like the biggest thing that I just sucked my teeth into the most during that period. Yeah.

How did you, how do you spend your time when you're 17, 18, building a business? Was it literally in your parents house? Yeah, 12, 15.

So I still, I still had two jobs at the time. I worked for a supplement company called Limitless Supplements and I worked for Foodstuffs, which is the holding company of a lot of the supermarkets in New Zealand. And at foodstuffs you had to drive this jiffy around the warehouse and you'd have this little, you know, Mike in.

Did you need that job? Was that just to keep parents happy?

I needed them. When I started making enough money, I quit them both obviously. But obviously like that was a debate in our own house. As well. Right. Like I'm going to Mum and Dad. I'm saying like, hey, I'm thinking about quitting my jobs. They're like, no, just quit one. And I'm like, I think I need to quit too. And they're like. And then I think from that point onwards, I don't want to get off topic, but from that point onwards my parents were just like, okay, we can't really tell this guy what to do anymore. Like he just needs to go on his own path. And then from that point onwards, I don't remember any time that my parents have like tried to put something on me or, or really direct me in a certain way. So it's been quite beneficial.

I think your parents are entrepreneurial at all.

Where does this come from? Yeah, not, not really.

A lot of people say there's. There was like a. I think they're.

A spark someone or something that my, my dad's. My dad's a builder and my mum works HR in hospital, but I think there's sparks. Yeah, I think it's such a. It's such a. It's a couple combo that you see a lot, you know. And then their names are Kathy and Tony, which also is another couple combo that you hear a lot, you know. Like I, I swear I've met like so many guys and they're like appearance are called Kathy and Tony.

Really?

What the.

There's probably some science behind that.

Yeah.

So.

So yeah, going back to what we were just saying.

Going back to where you've quit uni, quit two jobs.

Oh, yeah, sorry. So what was my day to day like I was just hustling hard. You know, when you're young you've just got so much energy. Like I would go to school and this is obviously during the times that I had school, not school holidays, I'll go to school, I'd come home, I'd probably drive out to like a supermarket and start to do some tastings for the protein company that I was with and then I'll probably finish work about like 7pm and I'd come home and I'd work till know 1 or 2am and then I'll get up for school and then go to school. But I was like working extremely hard on my job so I could actually have cash to fund the businesses that I was trying to grow and then, and then on the businesses as well, you know, I was just, I think I was just using like every last bit of energy that I had and still trying to go to the gym, still Trying to improve that pillar of physical health from such a young age as well, I think just like trying to, you know, get at life in every way from, from a young age. And I think, and I definitely, you know, you used up, you know, that, that energy, they're like young kid energy that everyone has. Like I think I used it up quite beneficially.

You know, sometimes the drop shipping from when you, I guess started to make it work to. Well, I guess like how did that look in terms of scale? So when you started, how long did you spend it? Small scale? I know you're doing some crazy and I was new, younger, I can't remember exactly, but how did that look over the next few years? And then we'll get on to what you've obviously done more recently.

But of course, yeah, I mean I'd love to go back and like look at the numbers and look at the Shopify dashboard and see how it scaled. So I can't remember specifically but it for sure was a few months of, you know, $500 a day, thousand dollars a day finding a product like, you know, trying to scale some ads, like, you know, failing on the scale and then coming back down to $0 a day. So there was like a few months of that. Obviously just small little fluctuations. But like I said before when we met these two guys called Mac and Mike who were brothers and they were selling that poor black mask.

Do you remember that?

Yeah, yeah, they were selling that. We, and we met them and they were doing like 30, 40k days. I think that they're like really sparked this, this vision for what I was doing when I, that I realized like, oh hey, I can push this far beyond the numbers that I'm currently doing. And I just think that from that point, because I saw someone else doing it, I then somehow engineered it in my own way. I, I think I was just simple in the way that I was scale products. I wouldn't steer to right or left from my given strategy that I was like focused on. And I focused on kind of the main thing which was the product and the video and the creative obviously. And I got really good at selling products within a 30 second video, like talking about the problem, focusing on the solution or sorry, showing the problem, providing the solution and then talking about the unique selling points of that solution. That was like the area that I was focusing on the most. And I think, and I think because I just had this like standard scaling strategy within the ads that I was focused on and I didn't, you know, let that become too Complicated.

Was this just a general store?

It was just in general store, yeah.

General store for anyone that doesn't know that sells any product.

Yeah.

So the whole game is just to find something that can scale rather than obviously build a brand which you've come on to obviously. Recent? Well, not recently. Past four or five years.

Yeah.

I was in the general store space. It's funny because there is a shop called the general store near where I live and every time I walk past it, me and Fred always just giggle because it's just reminiscent of OG drop shipping days.

I love that.

And you're running all the Facebook ads yourself?

Yep, yep. Facebook ads.

I feel like that's the first skill, yeah. Many online entrepreneurs learn is well, media buying, but more specifically because most of us don't learn Google Ads. I still to this day don't know how to run Google Ads.

But Facebook, Facebook for sure. That probably has to be the single handedly most important skill that I've learned in my business career, if you call it. Yeah, I think Facebook ads for sure.

It teaches you the fundamentals of how to actually get eyeballs and money and.

Then reinvest and everything else like you can figure out after, you know, like obviously I've made so many mistakes, you know, scaling with acquisition with Facebook ads and then obviously like realizing these, all these problems on the back end. But you need to have customers to be able to realize a lot of those problems.

Yeah.

Especially when you're a young like kid and you haven't done this before and you're just going into this, this area as well, you know. So I think that was the biggest thing. I mean I've got a gym in New Zealand called Nine Round and we won the fastest growing gym in the southern hemisphere for Lift Brands, which is the franchise that owns Snap Fitness in Nine Round. And we're up for like three or four awards this year as well. My business partner Jake is going to the event in a week or so to, to receive the awards.

I thought you sold out of that.

Haven't sold it out of it. No, no, no. So we're still, we're still running. We try to sell. But Covid happened and, and the market, the market died. No one wanted to buy a gym in New Zealand after Covid because in New Zealand that was the first thing they shut down, you know, so. But we won the fastest growing gym in the southern southern hemisphere and it was purely because of just understanding Facebook ads and understanding the idea of building a funnel. Yeah, right. That like no other gym, especially in New Zealand was doing. So we were just able to scale that so fast. But yeah, I think that has to be like the biggest, the biggest thing that obviously that's bled into everything that I've done in the last like four years as well. And then just because under I love the game just like yourself, you then learn so many other areas of actually building a business that's not just Facebook ads. And obviously now I don't run Facebook ads at all for my company. But yeah, and now like I'm really, really invested into learning like all of these other areas. But it definitely has to be like that first.

You know, you have to scrappy know what the f. I'm doing.

Yeah, you can't hire an kid in a bedroom. Yeah, exactly.

Ads are the only way to get eyeballs and to get conversions, which brings you revenues. You can actually start building a business and the rest comes later. And dropshippers certainly don't know that much about supply chain and finance planning. All this that we talk about now. Because it starts with marketing.

Exactly.

And it's like a fundamental skill base and everything else comes later. So you spent a few years doing that. Obviously we'll come on to your more recent thing. You run a skincare brand called Gleaming. But when I remember roughly when you started talking about wanting to build a brand and I guess, and I've talked about this loads of times on the pod, I guess the fundamental distinction is long term versus short term. Drop shipping. Cash flow gets you started. It's all about just making profit. You don't care even about what you're selling really. But building a brand is way more creatively fulfilling. It's a more valuable business long term, if you get it right.

Yeah.

When, when and why did you start to pivot towards that? And out of drop shipping and then obviously into the business you're still running, which has been going.

Yeah. I think I didn't like the idea of being like, I'm embarrassed by what I do with drop shipping or having to hide it from people. You know, like we were both in the same industry and we became like really, really close mates.

General store.

But still you're like, what's your store? And like, I'm not telling you, you know, and, and I just, I don't think I like that.

Drop shipping.

Yeah, it didn't feel natural. It didn't feel like something that I was gonna continuously do for the rest. Rest of my life. I, I saw it as a, as a period of. Of time platform to get started and, and Yeah, I was just capitalizing on, you know, the, I was capitalizing I guess on the ad platforms, allowing these sort of ads. I was capitalizing on Shopify, allowing drop shipping businesses at the time. Like, but I didn't see it as like a long term thing. So I think like any person going into drop shipping, right, like you always want to go into something that you can be proud of and you can put your name on because I think that's the biggest thing with that, people struggling.

I honestly think very few people do actually go into building legitimate brands. Even now they'll say they own a brand and they're big brands and it's a drop shipping brand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, of course not. No. It doesn't have all the other pillars of it, but. Sorry, I need to drink some water. Haven't spoken like this in a long time.

Man. You're doing good. You're doing good.

Yeah, I never talked this much. My voice is gonna be gone by the end of this. Eh. It's like a big night, but it's a podcast. Might turn into a big night though. So what was I going on to about, about starting to go into building a brand? So yeah, I think it just came from me wanting to be proud of something that I was doing. And I had this opportunity with a guy called Stefan from Christchurch. He was building a vitamin C skincare brand, or it was not exactly his brand. It was a brand that was set up and it was essentially just drop shipping, not drop shipping. We had a warehouse, but it was essentially reselling these products from China that were already under this, you know, brand at the time. And it was selling vitamin C skincare. And that was kind of the first step in the brand direction that I took where I was like selling something that had a consistent name across it, all of the other products. And then also that there was just. That was kind of my first step in the space of skincare as well. And you know, during that time I recognized that vitamin C is like a well known ingredient that a lot of people already understand. There's not a lot of education needed around the ingredient because people know that it's good for their skin. And we were just able to quite easily know, sell that brand, sell, sell that, sell those products at around like maybe 150k a month. You know, like wasn't massive scale but we were able to do it, you know, at a decent IS level, you know.

But cold turkey, on drop shipping I kind of had.

Or did you like transition?

I had a transition I remember it late 2018.

Yeah. I went cold turkey. I had some problems with my account at the time.

And that's the end of every drop. Shipper, ad, account, band.

Exactly.

It's done. It's a sign.

Classic. That was a sign. Exactly. I was like, okay, this is. This is time. And I'd done quite well. Like I had about a million liquid in the bank at like 19 years old. I was like this.

USD or NZD? NZD.

So like 600 USD.

So crazy.

It was sick. So I bought a property portfolio with 1.5 million in new Zealand.

I remember all this.

Yeah.

Yeah. I thought you were gonna go into that full time.

But I should have now. Joking. But although they would have. Probably worth quite a lot now. I bought seven units in New Zealand. Two pieces of land. I had plans to develop on the land. And then also I went into the gym. And after all of that I had about, you know, 400k left.

When was this? Like this would have been early 19.

This would have been.

Because I remember our US trip with Tim and Eddie. To this day I can talk about that was like. I'm good at.

There was around time that I was like selling.

February, March 2019.

Yeah. Selling the properties.

Yeah.

And that's when I was starting up gleaming because I realized the opportunity that I have in front of you and I need to sell the properties. So I guess. Sorry, just to kind of try to summarize that all up. Dropshipping came to a hard stop. I got a ban. And then I realized I need to put my cash somewhere, you know. So I invested into a bunch of properties. I had seven units into this little town in New Zealand called Invercargill. Super cheap properties. Right? Like land with. What are those homes called? That? They're like bungalow. No, they're like they.

I remember you sending me a spreadsheet actually saying I should do the same. Huh. We had a call about this.

Really.

Because I was in a relatively similar situation. It's funny. And it was around a similar time I got into building brands, I guess because same shit happened to me and I just thought. I think we both could have kept doing it. But I like to think I was destined for bigger things rather than being the guy that just fucking drop ships forever.

Yeah.

Because even if I could have made £10 million doing that, which some probably can, just wouldn't have been able to sleep.

No, true.

It's just not admirable.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

But I remember you sending me a spreadsheet.

Yeah. We Talked about a lot of things since then. They were pre built homes. So they were the ones that kind of sit off the ground about like half a meter and. And they pre built, they come on a huge truck, maybe sometimes they're on pieces and they. And add it on to, you know, in a way like they don't obviously have wheels or anything but like they're essentially pre built homes that people buy pre made and then they drop them onto pieces of land and live on them and plug them all up and everything and they're good. So I bought a two pieces of land, one with four of them on it, one with three of them on it. And then I had two other pieces of land that I was going to develop on and then also I started the gym and then that was kind of where I was parking my money. And then at the same time I was trying to look into something to go into that I could really sink my teeth into and really grow and just put my all into for however many years, you know, and, and see it through to the end, whatever that end means. Essentially then at around 19 years old, which was 2021, I moved to Melbourne.

No, 20, 20, 2017. Surely. 2019.

2019.

You're not 22 now, huh?

No, 24.

Yeah. Yeah. So what? 19 two years ago.

Oh yeah. True, true, true. Sorry, sorry. I don't know why it was.

What was your math is crazy.

Usually I'm pretty good at math, eh?

Yeah.

See my spreadsheets. But, but so I moved to Melbourne around 19 and that was around the same time that I was like looking for something to really sink my teeth into, to grow. I think the brand that I was building there was this like. Or the brand that I was running that was this Chinese made vitamin C skincare brand. It was like treadling long. I bought my partner out of it. I was looking for a buyer for it and I was just really looking for something to really sink my teeth into. So that's the whole business side of it. And then the other side of this whole story is to do with my own personal problems actually.

And that's we're clip this to make you famous. Yeah, make the story good. You can use this on Gleaming's website.

Okay, cool. So this is why I'm so passionate about skincare. Right. Like a lot of people ask me.

Like I think I asked you at the time.

Yeah. What like why are you running the skincare brand? Yeah, why are you so passionate about it? You know like so. So from a really, really, really young age Actually, as early as I can remember, I always had this problem with my face. And it was that at any point that I was under like, stress, if my heart rate was increasing, if I was doing physical exercise, if I was at a party, like talking a lot, if I was nervous on a date, my face would go like blotchy red, like so bad, like a bright tomato. And, and that continuously happened from like, if you look at photos of me when I was like a little kid, like, you can see these bright red cheeks and forehead and like upper chest area and neck on this like little kid. And obviously my parents are like, oh, it's just cute, right? But it was like an actual problem. So. So it was only really, really up until around 16, 15, 17. Around that age that you, you know, become. I. I guess like, you start to become conscious of, you know, not problems that you might have, but areas that you're different. You know, you, you start to develop opinions. People start, you know, I guess bullying or comparing you to others inside of school. Like, it was only up until that age that I kind of realized that this was like a problem because a few people in school started calling it out, right? Like I'd speak in front of the whole class and my face would just go super bright red and I'd be sweating a little bit and it was like horrible. And then when started when people started calling it out, then it became like the worst thing because then you're becoming super self conscious about it. And my self esteem was just being batted down. But at the same time, I'm trying to like grow these businesses and become independent. And I think that fueled it even as well because I was like, all right, like, screw everyone. I just want to do my own thing and just like make money and online and I have to like, worry about this, you know, So I, so I kind of recognized that this was a bit of a problem. And then when I moved to Melbourne and I started to, you know, become more of my own person even, right? Like, I'd move it out of home. I was starting to go on dates with girls from Melbourne. I was going to, going out, you know, drinking and partying, like enjoying, enjoying life. And then also just being in an environment where I was like meeting new people, I realized like, this is a really big problem that I need to resolve because every single time that I was in any environment like that, my face would just like flush up and it would be the worst thing ever. And it got to the point that I wouldn't even be nervous about going On a date, meeting people having a meeting. Like, it got to the point that I was having zoom meetings and the same thing was happening. I wouldn't even be nervous about any of the actual environments that I was in. I was just nervous about the way that I was going to react. So even 10 minutes before I'm like sitting in the Uber, 10 minutes before arriving to the date, the only thing I'm thinking about is not like, oh yeah, what am I going to ask this girl? Like, you know, I trying to think about how I'm going to elevate the date. I was just super stressed about how I was going to react in that moment. So it became a real problem. I started going to a dermatologist and started to do laser treatment on my face. And what that helped with was the rosacea that I was having that was developing, which I still have a little bit. And I still like get laser treatment here and there. But what it was helping with was the rosacea that had developed. Because when I would have these huge big flushes, these, the blood, the red blood cells in my face would expand and not retract fully. So like over time of this continuously happening, they would, they ended up not fully going down to their, like their fully like retracted position, right? They, they would, they would stay a little bit diluted. And that meant that I had this continuous red flush across my face that it was easier to trigger than ever before. So I went and I got laser treatment. And that was one big significant thing that helped because that helped the rosacea that had developed from this problem. And then I discovered the surgery called ets. And I'm not going to attempt or end. ETSY stands for I should have it in front of me. It's a long ass word. But essentially ETS is a surgery that is for people with this problem that I had and then also for people with sweaty palms as well. So you've ever met someone, you know, you go to shake hands with them and you're like, hell, they're like palms super wet. You know, like they have the same problem that I had. It's just like coming off in a different way. And what it is is it's your body reacting from reacting to stress in, in an imbalanced way. So when I was younger, I never would sweat on my stomach, on my legs, on my back from about this point upwards. That's where my body would, would like retract or exert the stress, right? And it was from becoming flushed and also sweating from this point upwards. I got the surgery. Keyhole surgery. Through. Through your. Your two underarms. They go through your lung or around your lung. This is around the same time. So this is like. This is. This is kind of. This has obviously been going on since I was, like, a young kid.

Yeah.

I got the surgery around the same time that I was really starting to get into gleaming, and this is just why I'm obviously, like, so into what I do. I had a skincare brand before gleaming, and now I've got another. Another skincare brand. But I had the surgery, and essentially what they do is they go through and they freeze the two nerves that go up the side of your body into your neck and then. And then around to your face as well, and they freeze them. So then it creates this balance now between the body. So now when I go and, like, work out, like we were working out the other day. So weird, you know? Like, I now don't sweat from my. Yeah, Matt's, like, dripping sweat from us, from his head, and I'm like. It's, like, dry.

I want to get that. That's a good thing.

It's.

Is it bad if you don't have base problem? Is it, like, is it.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's actually quite a scary surgery. There were some groups on Facebook about people that had had it and it had gone wrong.

So, like, what could have happened?

Like, the. The symptoms came back even worse, you know, because the way they used to do the surgery is they used to deflate the lung and then do the nerve, because the nerve is. Is inside of the lung. So they used to deflate the lung, but now with keyhole surgery, they can feel weird. They can work around it.

So you though.

Keyhole surgery, they didn't have to deflate the lung. For about two weeks after, my whole chest area was super tight. Like, I'd just gone for, like, the heart session of my entire life.

Yeah.

I got two scars right there. And it was the best thing that I'd ever done. Yeah. Best moment of my life. Yeah. Because, like, from that point onwards, I was like, okay, now I can. I can finally lean into, like, being the person that I want to be. I can. I can finally start pushing business and going on, like, big trips and meeting.

Did it literally overnight go?

Yeah.

I don't even remember you having a rosy face.

No one does. That's the thing. But it is.

I thought I used to have a rosy face. I mean, I definitely did. Maybe not to that extent. Yeah. I've never had Surgery? Yeah.

You always ask people and they're like, oh, like I never noticed that. But like, it's one of those things that you notice yourself.

We definitely don't have it now.

No, no, no, it's chill, it's chill. It's really, it's really good now. Like I could still drink alcohol and get like a little bit of flush. Like I'm a white guy from New Zealand.

Right.

It's going to happen.

Yeah.

Got a bit of Scandinavian inside of me, so, you know, nothing can resolve that. But it was the best moment of my life and that one of the best moments of my life. And that there just kind of like allowed me to push so much harder into the areas that I was going into. So, you know, start to build, gleam in, go overseas, meet people that I'm working with, like have sit down meetings and have serious conversations. Have, you know, long zoom meetings that I didn't have to worry about this, go on dates, start to meet, like girls that I actually wanted to meet with without having this idea of this problem. What are they gonna think of me because of my red face? Like, it was the best thing. I think that was like the catapult, you know, for my own self esteem and the way that I feel about myself. And that allowed me to, I think, achieve so many things just because I now didn't have this thing that was like weighing me down so much.

And that was also the primary purpose for gleaming. That was the reason he started it, because he. So were you. Is that the reason you started?

I guess Gleaming's not a brand, not a brand focused on rosacea or focused on people with a specific problem. Gleaming, we focus on hyperpigmentation, which is the darkening of, of the pigment of the skin due to many problems.

I think your problem is what got you interested in that.

Very much so. Yeah, of course. Very much so. So, so, because I had this whole journey myself and I was just so interested because of course, like when you have this problem with your face, the first thing you're going to be looking up is topical treatments, you know, like treatments for rosacea. Therefore, you're now looking at products, ingredients for rosacea. You're now looking at like ingredients. You're trying to dissect what ingredients, find what products going into them. And you just. And I just naturally kind of gravitated towards the industry and then obviously at the same time trying to chase this idea of like independence and building something huge that I can just like sink my teeth into and grow and see through right to the end. It's kind of those two things coming together and gleaming. Gleaming started from me noticing opportunity on YouTube where a lot of people were making DIY turmeric and aloe vera masks for hyperpigmentation. Because hyperpigmentation, just like rosacea, just like what I had is a skin concern that it's not your face going red, but it's your face and other areas of your body potentially continuously having a dark mark on it. And that also just like hypermit, just like rosacea did for me, that also impacts people's self esteem as well. And at the time that I discovered this ingredient combination that people were making DIY masks for and no one had probably commercialized it, I realized that hyperpigmentation was not an area that in the skincare industry had been focused on enough. And I saw the opportunity and I kind of just like jumped at both of those two things together. So I saw, you know, turmeric and aloe vera was a great combination for dealing with hyperpigmentation. No one had commercialized it. There's a lot of problems with doing, doing DIY formulas. You know, if you use the wrong type of turmeric, if you use the wrong type of aloe vera, you can have a skin reaction. You can brush, you can stain your face as well. So it's not the most recommended. Also you end up with a heap of waste of product as well. Like, yeah, it's cheaper for sure, like for one unit. But then you're buying. Like think about how much turmeric you're going to buy, how much aloe vera you're going to buy. You know, you're going to go out of your way to build, buy that people on convenience. So I realized there's an opportunity here to commercialize this ingredient combination.

How long did it take to go from idea, which is what plenty of people can have, but then they get stuck with the execution. Obviously you had the experience and some cash. How long takes you from idea to launch and when did you launch?

We launched.

It's obviously still running now.

So March, March 2019.

We launched pretty much bang on four years ago because. Yeah, because I remember being in Tokyo with you in November 19th, which was the biggest stand of my life. And you telling me this night of.

My life as well.

Circa six months are gone.

Rugby World cup final.

Yeah.

2019.

Yeah. In Tokyo.

England, South Africa.

Time flows.

England beat South Africa. England beat All Blacks in the semi final. South Africa won the final after losing to New Zealand and ye group stages.

Christ, I could not see you during that match.

Yeah, I was avoiding England. I had the England face paint on and the.

Yeah. Because I launched Midnight City pretty similarly similar time.

Yeah.

I mean, I was never as passionate about that. I think I was evident from the start. But yeah. Yeah. I remember us comparing notes because it was similar in the sense we both done general. It was drop shipping, made a bit of money.

We've had. We've had similar lives in a lot of different ways.

Yeah.

Both were going through a pretty intense breakup at the same time as well.

Yeah.

There's both brands, like Gleaming went through its struggles. You know, like, we've had to execute a whole turnaround, which I can talk about a bit like. And obviously at the same time, I think you were having the problems with the neonatal neon beach as well. Similar. Ish time. So we've had, you know, there's some.

You're still going. Still going. Still.

Yeah, still trading on.

So, yeah. Idea to launch just quickly. How does that look? I think I've spoke about. For my own brand now. What do you do? You know, I guess you've never been in that space. Well, you had kind of with. With Stefan, you mentioned.

Yeah, yeah, with. With the Vitamin C brand to develop.

V1 of the face mask. Because I know that's your. What's your hero product.

Probably nine. Nine months, I think. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it takes time because you've got to do. You've got to do stability testing, preservative testing to make sure the formula is okay to be able to send it. And this is stuff that I had learned from the manufacturer. So, you know, I had this idea in front of me and I. And I started to search up for natural skincare manufacturers in Australia at the time, because I was like, okay, I'm gonna launch this product in Australia. So I looked for an Australian manufacturer and I found one based out of Newcastle, Australia. And their CEO was so kind and helped a lot through the whole process. You know, helped me and worked with me to put the formula together, like the final formula, obviously. Cheers. Like, I had. I had my idea, but, you know, every formula has a few filler and filler ingredients. You've got a preservative system in there. So he helped me put that together, obviously, just because he's got that experience in skincare. And then we were able to launch it, I would say, within about nine months, which is relatively quick in the space of product development in skincare. Like any formula we develop these days, we give ourselves 12. We give us. We give the company 12 months, launch it, you know, like, idea today. If we move into testing today, 12 months from now, that's like when we can expect it.

How much you reckon it cost roughly to do that? Because a lot of people will wonder that.

Yeah, sure.

Build a brand, cosmetic space, fully bespoke formula.

Obviously the formula, the, the, the formulation might only been like 1 or 2k, I think. You know, a lot of contract manufacturers, if you develop with them, they'll actually do it for free. But because you're going to manufacture.

Yeah, I guess the main cost is in minimums of a first order. Right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Which is the same for me.

And, and right from the start, like, I mean, we can go into the launch, but within four days, right, we sold out. And then I realized I needed more inventory and I ordered more inventory and I sold out of that as well.

How much did you have to start with and how much did you.

I think it was like 500 units. Like literally like five.

Pretty small.

Yeah, pretty small. Of course, small scale. And then just trying to obviously fight demand for like the first year or two years and.

But I guess just before we jump into two years.

Yeah.

How quickly did you. Because I guess when you launch anything new, you know, you obviously have a conviction as a founder, but until you've sold anything, certainly. So you've got like at least a few months. How quickly did you think, oh, this is working?

Yeah, yeah, great, great question. That's actually such a good story as well.

So.

So Gleeman was originally launched under a different brand name called Seed and Sour in Australia.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I actually didn't know that.

And it was the same product, but it was in Australia. And the problem with Seed and Sour was it's a horrible brand name, first.

Of all to say.

Hard to say. And it was too similar to another skincare brand in Australia. Scanning at the same time and now, because obviously, like when you're starting to go in industry, you're like, who's what's working for other people? Okay, there's that brand name. I'm gonna make something similar, you know, so launch it in Australia.

Definitely pretty similar.

Didn't. Didn't do too well. Didn't do too well. I think just the marketing wasn't on point. Like I didn't put the right videos in place. And then I decided to push it over to the USA and test out the United States market. So I sent the product over to an influencer in the, in the US and I had them make a five day Gleeman video. So they would use the mask on day one, day two, day three, day four, day five, and they would document their journey. And it was the first influencer because the other ads that we made in Australia, Australia were like, you know, standard. Standard as maybe images.

Who were you using though? Because I know you focus on black women.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, of course.

Was that always the case or was that you realized that that was, I remember you mentioning maybe ages ago, you realized that was like a sub niche of customers that seemed most passionate and then of course, while focusing on them.

Because the product focuses so much on hyperpigmentation. When you're starting a company, obviously you need to, you need to understand, like, who are going to be the customers that most need this product. Right. And all of the videos that were people making DIY masks of turmeric and aloe vera that I obviously had that original idea from, were African American, Hispanic and Asian women typically, because people of color and the skin concern that they mostly deal with, which is hypnotization, was the area that I had, didn't feel had been, you know, had been given enough attention in the industry right from the start. Right. And as soon as we push it over to America and of course, like sending over to influences in America, you want to have a wide, wide range of ethnicities in those influences. The first few videos that we had were African American women. And then we obviously then started to expand to try to become the accessible authority brand for hyperpigmentation, which everyone suffers from. Like, right. Like I could suffer from hyperpigmentation one day. It's just that the people who deal with hyperpigmentation the most and it affects them the most are typically those with more melanin in their skin. So they've got darker pigment, meaning obviously people of color. Right. So we seen these, we send the product out, we got a bunch of videos over. And then there was the first ad that we got through or, sorry, the first influencer video that we got back was from an influencer and she did a five day transformation with gleaming. And you could see after five days her hyperpientation had brightened slightly. So it started to diminish and her texture had improved and her skin was brighter. So the things that, you know, people who deal with argumentation are most searching for in a product for their face. Like those things we had, you know, we had been able to help with. Right. So turned that influencer video, which would have been like 15, 20 minutes, turned it into a 30 second ad, used those same strategies that I Originally learned in dropshipping obviously like talking about the problem, presenting the solution, talking about the unique selling points of the solution which was ours, was our vitamin C trio that we've got in Australia. The turmeric and aloe vera combination and then the base, the found the foundation of the formula which was the clay. You know, wrapping that all up in a 30 second video and presenting it, you know, to, to obviously people on. People on Facebook. And the first day we launched into America was the day that I knew that I was onto something for sure. Like I remember going to the gym with Tim and I think I had my Shopify notifications on and I think we had a really low budget, maybe like 50 a day. But it was like, you know, so. And that's when you know, like you know, when you know, right. It's like back in the day when you.

Why and when did you decide to focus on the US over Australia?

It just wasn't working in Australia. I think that, that, that comes down to me not having the right strategy with the ads that I was executing. You know there's a funny thing with Australia. It's really hard. I mean high smile have cracked it but it's really hard to get people in Australia to create product focused videos. You know, just from what I've seen about. Just what I've seen with the climate. Like people in America, in New York and LA especially are much more used to creating, you know, videos that are showcasing a product. They're talking about the benefits just because I think it comes on more naturally because there's a larger like film industry over there.

Maybe it's also really hard to get an Australian girl to go on a date with you when you're not Australian.

There was the pre, the pre podcast chats. Maybe tonight may we have to see but, but yeah, maybe that was like something that, that assisted. Right. So the moment that we launched to Australia, I knew I was on and I was like, okay, America, I need to lean into this. I need to change the name. Sorry, America. I mean I, I need to change the name because I was like, I'm not happy with this name. You know, it's too close to what was already.

How much, how much time have you gone from live to. Did you stop and relaunch? You just change the name overnight?

No, no, obviously that took like months, like two, two, three months. Obviously because I had to change the packaging. Yeah, I changed the name, the whole website, like everything. You know, I think because I had validated the product in the market, I Then realized I need to take this a whole lot more seriously and I need to really think long term about this because obviously, like, the decisions you make with brand name and the direction of the brand is something that's going to be so long standing with the brand, with the company. So I needed to be really, like calculated with those decisions.

It's a much better name.

Yeah, Gleaming's an awesome name. It literally means to shine bright. Literally to shine bright in your own. In your. In your own self as well. To like, have an aura about you and. And it just works perfectly for. For the products we provide and like, you know, our approach to positioning on the market. For sure. Yeah.

So Gleaming focusing on America, what the first year look like broadly, where were you leading based? How was the team? How quick was everything? I mean, you've done it before, so it was always kind of good.

Not on the same level, though, and not with like a brand that I was. That I can see myself building for the next five to ten years, you know.

Yeah.

Like this here I was taking a whole lot more seriously. So realized that there was product market fit with Gleaming, changed the brand. Then I realized I needed cash. So I actually ended up selling all of my properties at the time to my accountant who was helping me manage the finances of the company that had the properties just because they were positively geared, right. They were making like 800 to a grand per week, like net profit. So I sell. So actually I called up, his name is Jono, and I said, hey, I need to sell all these properties because I need the cash because I've got this opportunity in front of me with this brand. What do you think I can do? Like, what's the path? And he said, oh, me, my business partner can buy them from you. And within two weeks I had. I didn't make a. I don't think I made a dollar of profit off the properties in terms of like the sale price. So there was no, like, capital gains or anything like that. But he was able to help me pull my cash out of, you know, that portfolio. And essentially he just bought the whole portfolio from me, like within a week because he knew all the numbers. I had seen it from the start to the point that it was at. So there was no, like due diligence needed, no questions needed. Like, he knew everything because he was my accountant at the time for all of my companies.

So you sold that, kept the gym.

Sold that, kept the gym. Obviously can't move out of the gym as fast. As flexible as the properties mean at the Time still have the gym today. And then I used that cash to fund the growth in Gleeman. And it was a double edged sword, you know, like I had about half a million dollars liquid in the bank when I started gleeman. That's an NZD, so about 300k US and that was like, that was great. Obviously I had cash to scale. I tested out this marketing strategy, this marketing strategy. But it was a double edged sword because I did not learn proper cash management strategies. You know, it basically felt like I had unlimited cash and I had the mindset going into the first year, the first two, the first three years. Yeah. Of the brand come from that quick. I'm like exactly that. I'm like, okay. Because I, I think you see a lot of stories online and you're like, okay, you can run unprofitably for, you know, so many years and then you can just sell and it's like throwing around so loosely and. And it sounds so easy. So I wasn't focused on being extremely profitable from the start. Like I was bleeding money and unnecessary press. Like I remember someday I put like 25 grand US into like some three or four magazine features because I was like, oh, this we need to position amongst those magazines. We hadn't even learned our own positioning yet as a brand. You know, we're only like months in. You know, like at that time, obviously you should be taking a much different approach, should be much more calculated with your cash because you don't want to waste money on a press feature that might not be relevant to your actual brand when you really decide who you are or really find out who you are. So I just had this mind. I. I just don't think I had the. A conservative enough mindset. And then that there bled into so many other problems that we had after like year two, year three. Because I continued that mindset through and I continued it through even in the times that we started to really struggle, which is when covert hit supply chain prices went up. We were still manufacturing in Australia and like. And had a lot of problems with the team as well. So when times got tough, I didn't have the right mindset to be able to manage that.

It was like a PR disaster with one of the team members.

Yeah, yeah, that was messy. That was a contract that we brought on and she essentially used all the.

Attributes perfect for price.

Yeah, it was just a team of a cancellation of the brand and of myself. Like I got death threats personally. Overnight I woke up and I like rolled over in the morning and I looked at my Instagram and I, like, had these, like, had these, had these messages and I was like, what the. What's going on? And like, straight away got on to cool with the team and, and realize what had happened. And, you know, ex contractor had just, like, built up this whole big story about us and try to present it to her Instagram following. And then all of her Instagram following just, like, came at me and the brand. And that obviously had a huge impact on, like, myself personally, because I was like, what am I doing here? Like, should I, should I stop this? Am I doing the wrong thing? Okay, I know I need to listen to our customers. I need to listen to this, this community. But. But ultimately it was just an attempt of a cancellation of the brand, which didn't work because we're still here and still pushing and doing better than ever right now.

So.

But four years go back.

Yeah. Headline like, how. How has growth looked? 19, 20, 21, 22. Has it been straight line up? Has it been broadly up with challenges? Like, how would you describe it?

Straight line up and then a flat line for three years. So first year we did a few mil. I remember maybe, like, maybe not a few mil, maybe one or two mil. The second, third, and fourth. Sorry, the second and third year, I think we've been around five years now. The first year was really March 19th. March 19th.

Four years. Yeah.

Okay, four years. Okay. So the first. The first year was probably around, like, you know, a mil, maybe one or two miles, obviously, because you've got a huge Black Friday period. And that came at the end of the year. And I was able to solve out. Solve some stock problems before then. The second year, I believe, was about seven. The third year was about eight. And then. And then now we're obviously into the, into the fourth year of the company and we're actually on track to, like, properly grow this year. So it was a strong flatline for a while, and it was obviously like, while we were dealing with all of the. All of the problems. Right. So what do you think you'll do this year? So, yeah, this year maybe about 1340.

Nice.

Yeah. So good, solid growth. And like, these are the. It's just. It's just because now everything's much tighter than what it used to be. We're manufacturing in the USA now. Gross margins are much better. We understand who we are. We've got stronger positioning in the market. We've got way better or way stronger, you know, partners that we're working with and a team that we're working with. You know, stronger focus in all areas of the company. Like, it feels like now we're just starting as a company, to be honest, because we've just had three years of, like, turmoil. And I feel like the last three years we've just been running around like headless chickens, just figuring out, like, who we are as a brand, what are we doing, you know, where are we manufacturing, what products are we developing? Just like all of those questions the last three years that we've had that we've been running around and spending money from. Meaning spending money on to answer. I feel like now, like, we have a grip on those questions and we really understand, like, where we're going now as a company.

Definitely. Drink some of that. I'm gonna speak. I definitely know what you mean by you feel like you just get started because I think when you're in your early 20s or even teenage years, like you were. You think. And I was the same. And I've documented this on this pod. You know, I want to be retired by 25. And then I just. I'm done. But then you realize it's like the Dunning Kruger curve or whatever I think it's called that when you think you know everything, when you know nothing, then when you actually know a lot more, you realize you know nothing. So it's like mid-20s, whatever it is.

Yeah, so true.

Mid to late 20s. Even though you've got a solid six, seven years of experience under your belt, you realize actually you're just fucking getting started. And the people you look up to have been doing it 40 years or 50 years or at least like 10 years just to even be remotely good at something.

Yeah, exactly.

And then you just start to look at everything. Takes long time, longer term, and you just, you've. It's so clear when I speak to certain people or listen to certain people on social media that if they've gone through that, like, maturity phase of realizing they know nothing or they're still in that delusion phase of they've been drop shooting for six months and they think that the next Elon Musk.

Yeah, exactly.

I haven't exactly been through any times of global, I don't know, recession or not prime econ Boom, like 20. 20, 2021.

Yeah.

And it's just so evident they're still flexing pictures of their Cartier watch, which we've all done, whether it's a Rolex or anything else. I very much did that. But, yeah, so you mean. Yeah, and it's. Yeah. So it feels like day one, it Does, I think when. When you've been through the trenches for, like I said, six, seven years and you're definitely getting good, but you realize it's just the fucking start.

Yeah.

You said there was a lot of challenges, though. What were those? What was the main thing you learned from those?

I think it all stemmed from not having proper cash management right at the start, not having proper cash management, and then also not having proper supply chain systems, I guess, systems and processes throughout the whole company, because that set us up in two ways. So, number one, like, we were over buying inventory, right? So we were over leveraged on that side. We had far too much. Far too much cash tied up in inventory. So therefore, if we entered a downturn where we needed to still pay, you know, invoices from the previous two, three months, you know, that. That they're obviously impacted. Impacted that because we weren't able to, like, liquidate the inventory very fast. And then also the supply chain side as well, because that, I guess, turns into it, right? Like, we didn't have the ability to project inventory correctly and we didn't have, you know, tight projections with what we're actually going to do over the next three to six months. So like I said before, I think we were just, like, running around like heedless chickens and then not having proper cash management, not having proper, proper accounting systems. Like, the accountants that I've worked with, they just haven't been. They just haven't been super tight on processes in terms of reconciling, you know, certain transactions or bills in given months. Therefore, I'll look at a month and I'll be like, oh, yeah, we've done that amount of profit, but actually, in reality, they haven't added a $50,000 bill, you know, so I wasn't super tight in that area. So massive mistakes in those spaces. And I think that they're, like, created or. Sorry, it allowed all of these other problems to become, or like, problems that could have been small things. It allowed them to become much larger problems than what they probably needed to be. So, for example, when Covid hit right, and supply chain prices went way up, our gross margins were extremely squeezed. And I didn't recognize that on the P and L. So we continued to spend on Facebook like we were normally spending. We continued on our CPA targets like we typically had. And. And I didn't. Yeah, I didn't see the gross margin changing in the company just because our books weren't fully accurate. And that there in itself created such a huge problem because we went from being, you know, profitable to like somewhat profitable for a few months to being like really, really unprofitable as a company. And, and at the same time, like, I should have moved manufacturing earlier over to the United States because that was where 90% of our customers were. And I attempted it. And the manufacturer that we worked with at the time just didn't hit the mark on the mask. You know, they couldn't do it. And I think I just gave up on the project. So like that was another huge mistake. Which also meant that gross margins were squeezed even further because we continued to manufacture in another country. Then we were warehousing, we hired a heap of employees. That was a massive one as well. And we hired about 10 to 11 employees at one point. And there wasn't, again, there just wasn't like proper projections put in place where we, where we could like calculate if we actually needed this employee. You know, we were really inflated in that way. And then we had a lot of cultural problems because personally I just didn't understand how to manage a team. You know, I was far too friendly with employees just saying that off camera. And I didn't have anyone in the organization who was the other side of it that could be that, like harsh, you know, director in the organization that would be able to call out employees on their bullshit.

So.

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I'll be glad to have you in there. Let's fucking go. Right. Quick wine break. As always. Team, big problems. You'd never. No experience managing a team which no young founders have until they do.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. It was just the perfect storm, you know. And then also at the same time, we started to take dead out as well because I started to experience. Start getting access to a lot cash flow restraints. We had offers from all of these different lenders as well. And you know, they seemed like low. You know, they, they seem like low interest rates. Like. Right. Like they seemed affordable. And at the same time it was just the, you know, kind of reiterating what I was saying before as well. Like we just didn't have the right systems in place for us to be able to project and yeah, project. If we, if it's a project our future cash flow to be able to decide like, is this the right move, taking on this debt? At the time, Colin, who, you know is, is the founder of Boom and who's a strategic partner of ours, one of the big things that he says is, you know, don't fight, don't try to fix debt with debt. And that was exactly what we did.

That's literally what happened with me.

And I've seen it a lot. And I think a lot of lenders were actually not. I think I, I know like a lot of lenders these days are tightening up a whole lot because there are so many founders that have.

Rates have gone through the roof.

Yeah, exactly.

The past year.

You see Clear Co like struggling as well.

Pretty much.

Exactly. All of them. All of them, I feel like will be gone soon, to be honest. Like, or at least there'll be a few, like last standing ones still offering unsecured to like extremely, you know, credible brands and, and brands with like a long history.

So easily available in 20, 20, 21.

Exactly.

I took on Clear code.

Exactly.

Because we had crazy revenues.

Exactly.

But I didn't have the advice.

Exactly.

You probably didn't have the time.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that was a problem that we had alongside everything else. So it was just a multitude of things. There was a problem that we had that obviously a lot of, A lot of brands, other brands have also had. And that's why a lot of these, like unsecured lenders are closing shop, you know, these days because so many companies that have taken debt out can't pay them back. They're unsecured. So there's actually literally nothing that they.

Can do on 1% of people not paying back.

Yeah.

And then 3% can't.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And there's Nothing they can do. You know, if you're unsecured, there's nothing we can do. There's nothing they can do about it. Unless there's like, a lean in place on the company. That's been an area that, like, I've learned a lot about in the last, like, couple years, you know, that's super beneficial now moving forward, like, as a company. And again, it's just the same thing I was talking about before. Like, I just feel like we're on another level now where we just understand all of these other areas. It's just maturity in all areas of the company. Exactly.

How did you fix that? So you mentioned Boomin. I know they came in in some capacity, all these problems. Yeah. When do you realize there's a problem that might need fixing and how do you fix it?

Yeah, of course. So around a year and a half ago, I realized that we need to execute a company turnaround. So we were like, dying. Like, we were really. We were bleeding really, really bad. We were unprofitable, probably losing 50 to 100k plus per month, like, really bad. Our balance sheet was flipped up the wrong way. Right. So we had taken on this debt as well that obviously then brought up our liabilities, went, you know, flipped it up thing the incorrect way. And. And we were in essentially a position that I had to execute a company turn around, otherwise we were just gonna have to liquidate and stop the company. It was like the scariest position ever. And also at the same time, I was going through, like, a pretty intense breakup, which I think that, like, relationship, like, took a lot of attention away from me as well. And, like, you know, it is what it is. It's. It's ultimately like my fault with all of that. But that situation that I was in took a lot of my attention away where I couldn't, like, focus on resolving a lot of the problems that we had internally. So anyway, we got to the point that we were having to execute this company turn around. And I started to take on advice from my two mentors, Colin and Mirtab. Both like absolute legends, love them both. And, and decided to let my whole team go. So I had about 12 employees at the time. Within a week, we got down to two. So we kept on. We kept on one, one proper employee. The rest were contractors. And then we entered into a strategic partnership with Boomin. And obviously they've been amazing and we've got a really, really, you know, great relationship with him. Colin, I've known him for four to five years. He's One of my best friends. He's one of my mentors in, in, in business. An incredible guy I know as well so.

As well as you.

Yeah, Matt knows Colin. So we, we entered into that, that was part of the turnaround. The first kind of six months. The first, you know, six to eight months of the turnaround was completely focused on the P and L. So it was.

They just quickly. They invested in the brand or not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have a revenue share equity deal really like tied in with each other.

So was the cash that they put in what stopped the business?

Not at all. So actually the, the investment was part of a rev share equity deal. I don't want to talk about, I can't talk about it too much but essentially there was no cash up front but it was earned over like a certain period of time, you know what I mean? And, and that essentially just gave us horsepower. And I think the biggest thing was because Colin's been my mentor for like four to five years. We just realized that there's so much synergy between the two companies. Like we're implementing this system with our company and I've got, and I'm hiring one person on it with 100k salary running the system and they're running this system but I've got it for multiple brands and is running much more efficient and they have a much better hiring process to find someone to run their system. And we just realized this is, there's, there's an opportunity here for us to plug, to get plug in together and to really grow this thing. So that was a huge help. You know that wasn't the only thing that we did throughout the turnaround but that was a big thing that helped the, the, the pnl, the profit and loss statement turnaround and then the bunch of other things obviously like improving gross margin, moving manufacturing to the United States, finding a new freight forwarding partner as well, finding new warehouses. So like every part of the company that could be dissected or that impact of the P L was being, was being torn down and I basically had to rebuild that. So the last two years or last year and a half has just been me building every little part of the company from the ground up.

I mean founders as well, like I've been through it as everyone knows. There's very few people at young age that have been through like stress like that. I think it's valuable I refer to the period that I didn't come out as well as you, but it was like a real life mba.

Yeah.

Obviously I started again and whatever the silver linings and. But yeah, you know, when you're 60 years old, you probably credit that as being the most important period ever because it's made you a savage and be just better at business because everyone like the drop shipping space because it's like kind of a real business, but not really. Don't really deal with these problems. And when you deal with problems, don't know, you just get better at weathering the storm. Because entrepreneurship is the most brutal thing in the world. Everyone frames it as being this lambos and hoes and it's just such bollocks.

Yeah, exactly.

That's just guru trying to sell you a course.

Exactly.

If you're building an actual real business, it's just. Especially when shit goes wrong or becomes difficult. Yeah, yeah, it's rough.

Yeah. The big, the biggest thing is just. And it's so cliche is just like literally not seeing the option to pretend like to, to give up the brand, you know, and just to continue to weather the storm and work through it and figure out what we need to do to get to Tabar, you know. And that was like one and a half years or two years of just straight turmoil, you know, was. It was horrible. Like every little part of the company had to be flipped upside down and, and, and rebuilt, you know. But yeah, this is like the real kind of side of business, you know, when it gets, when it gets tough, essentially.

Yeah. So everyone wants to talk about it and say they're entrepreneur when shit's going well. No one wants to talk about it or say they're an entrepreneur when shit goes bad.

Exactly, exactly.

Or at least no one's willing to admit it. We don't know she's going bad.

And I'm, and I'm so thankful for the whole thing as well. Like it was, it's exactly what this whole turnaround is. Exactly what I needed as a founder in a CEO. You know, like just, just my perspective on decisions now. My perspective on areas of the business that then obviously impacts every day to day decision that I'm making in the company now has like changed completely. Yeah, you know, I'm the same prior to this. I feel like every decision that I was making was, was, was uncalculated. Obviously at the time it was what I thought, you know, was, was right for the company. But yeah, like I said before, it wasn't calculated, you know, like we weren't being intentional with every little thing that we were doing. And now, and now like every decision that we make is Being extremely intentional, calculated. How's this going to impact the P L? How's this going to impact obviously the balance sheet? Is this true to, you know, our mission as a company? Is this serving our customers correctly? Like all of those things have just been tightened up so much and it's so easy to like throw those words around. Right. For people to say that they're doing it. But like it's.

Unless you have to take a little bit, it's hard to do it. I would definitely say. And people have said it to me that have invested in me and the brand that if you've been through like that and come out the other side, that makes you way stronger than someone that hasn't and just has always had it good. That's not to say people that have never been through problems aren't good. No. But I think you're stronger if you have.

Yeah. You're thankful.

I guess I would say that, but I think it's true. Because the nice warrior side. Entrepreneurship. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Like I said before, I'm thankful for it. It's. It's crazy. It's. It's a crazy story to tell and talk about and like. Yeah, I think we're just at the day now, like because of that. I think we're at day one now still.

Yeah.

You know, like we're only just really getting. Getting ramped up. We only understand who we are now, I think as a brand.

And four years in day one, what is your vision for gleaming? Where do you want to go on a broader scale? But then the next few years, what do you think that looks like?

Of course. So DTC is growing well right now. I feel like we've got the, the team, all of the systems in place right now to be able to like really scale that up to like significant numbers. And then obviously retail is an area that we're moving into right now as well, so. And we do quite well on Amazon as well. Second top selling clay mask on Amazon behind ASDEC.

And then on Amazon US.

Amazon US. And then number 11 or 14 when we actually do have stock on Amazon. 11 or 14 for face masks as a whole as well. So that's like really, that's really, really strong. Amazon does well for us. And then now I think the next channel that we really need to go into is retail. So that's a huge focus for us. We've got a rebrand launching in January that I can't share too much about. But it's super exciting. It's just like again, part of the whole turnaround. This is kind of the same name.

Just a refresh though.

Same name, just a refresh. It's just again tightening up the hatches. Everything we've been doing over the last year and a half has been on the back end. Right. Like, you know, like I mentioned, all of our restructuring of our systems, processes, cash flow, supply chain, product manufacturing, gross margins, net margin, software, we have all of those things team. And then now the rebrand, I think is like the final step of that where it's actually the customer, customer facing side of the rebrand that we're tightening up our positioning on the market. We understand who we are, we understand how we're going to serve our customers better, obviously, what products that then creates. We've moved manufacturing now just not for the vitamin C clay mask over to the States, but all the other products as well. So that's given us the opportunity to actually rebrand them and that launches in January next year. So, like, that's what I'm working towards right now. Like super, super excited for it. It's like that there, it's Amazon growing that, it's, it's retail and expansion into other markets internationally as well. So now it's just like doing all the fundamentals, I think, of what, you know, a growing brand should do and not getting distracted by these like golden nuggets out there, these golden areas of opportunity, these new softwares that you can implement, you know, these new agencies that you should bring on board.

Say it's your first podcast for your good at podcast. I don't have to speak. I'd have to speak. Is there, is there an end goal here or have you got to the point where you found the vehicle that you enjoy driving, so to speak, and you just want to keep playing it? Is there an exit plan? Is there? Yeah, I think I know you used to speak about that more. And, and by the way, so did I.

And so does everyone when they're a.

Bit younger because they get obsessed with the idea of everyone says 100 mil. Yeah, and those people haven't even made 100 grand yet. Which is fine, but it's just, it's funny to look back on that, that, that naivety with a bit more maturity and experience, like, is there an end goal for sure.

I mean, everyone throws around the idea. I say this a lot. Like everyone throws around the idea of the exit so lightly, you know. And your mate Jimmy, I think he's.

Probably the most similar to you in terms of industry.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And, and for him it took eight to 10 years. Right. And he was able to sell the company. But I think people throw around the idea of exit like far too lightly.

Like a drop shipping store. Exactly is not quite the same because.

You know you, you've got so many variables in it, right. Like what is happening in the industry, what's happening in just the climate of, of acquisitions or just the economy in general in the, in the market that you're playing in. You know, like those are three big huge variables that you have to be, I guess like you have to be timed up with so perfectly as well and then it's going to take you know, two years for that even to happen once you even get to the point. So like right now essentially I'm just focused on building the most well oiled machine that I could and focusing on the key things like gross margin and net margin and building like a beautifully run company that we're creating a massive positive impact for our customers and being that brand for you know, hyperpigmentation for a kid's skin concern that hasn't been focused enough in the industry and that's kind of like the main focus right now. But of course like whatever comes from that, like we'll, we'll see. But I don't want to look like too far forward right now. But of course like if that ever was to happen and present itself and of course like right now making connect. I'm making certain connections to have those conversations at a later stage as well. But like right now I've got a big, big, big path ahead of me for the rebrand, for executing that correctly, for diving into these other channels as well that you know, you can't look like too far beyond that right now. So it's, it's there like it's a nice.

And is there a number in mind, Revenue exit and the thing. Or do you don't care about that as in right now don't care about that? Don't think about it. Yeah.

No, not really.

I know you used to tell me about Drunk Elephant eight hundred and something million dollars.

It's a funny thing in the, in the beauty industry you notice a lot of brands that get to like $50.

Million plus Hero Cosmetics was a recent one as well. Hero 600 something.

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of beauty brands when they get to like 60 million, 50 million. $60 million a year plus in revenue, they start to sell for multiples of revenue you 100 which is just like.

That'S the category you want to be in.

Yeah, exactly. Which Is, which is bananas. So, so you kind of have to decide like, you know, what path do you want to take? Do you want to go to the point that you're doing 20, 30 million a year with maybe like 15, 10 to 15% EBITDA and then start searching for a buyer? Or do you really, you know, continue to grow and then try to, and then try to partner up with one of the big conglomerates in the space? Because personally, like, like Gleam, I think Lehman can become a household name and the authority or the approachable and the, the approachable brand for hyperpigmentation. For sure. Like I think that can, I think that can happen. Right. And whether it's going to be us doing internally or us working with partner or like a conglomerate in the space to do it, then like we'll see. But right now it's just, right now I'm just focused on implementing everything that I've set out in the last like few months.

I guess you are only 24 now. Got some time.

Yeah, exactly. I think it's gonna take 10 years, 18 years, you know, six more years. Yeah.

Still be young.

Yeah. Because we've had all these problems today and like, who knows, maybe in like two and a half years time with another year of turmoil.

You know, it's always turmoil.

Like you don't know what's ahead of you.

At least I'm not the only one because I feel like it's always fucking turmoil. Yeah, exactly. I'm just constantly stressed. There's always, there's always a specific problem in my head. There's one major problem that needs to be fixed.

Exactly.

It's always that.

Yeah, exactly.

Three bits of advice to your 18 year old self, or in your case maybe 14 year old self or 16 year old self, upon reflection, because I think it's probably putting you on the spot. Do you give a good answer? That's why I ask every guest.

Yeah, for sure. I would say to be like, think long term with what you're doing. Don't make a lot of short term decisions in terms of where you're putting your cash. Like just try to be as intentional and calculated as possible. Be extremely careful with who you hang out with in your life and who you bring into your life. You know, like you don't realize the impact that they have as well the people that you surround yourself with. And I mean in that same point, like put yourself first always, you know, like too many people were just trying to please, please others, I think. Like please people in their group. Maybe they really Want to work on a Friday night, but their group wants to come out and party on that night. Like, if you've got something to do and you really want to do it, like, just say fucking no. You know, like, do it. Just get the shit done. And then third point right now would be to don't. That was three with that. That last point was kind of part of that. Second, I would say the third point, and actually I. I think is the most significant, to be honest, is even though we're like. We've obviously just had this whole conversation about business, I think business is literally. Or this path of entrepreneurship is like one pillar of life and the way. And. And you really should be looking at all of your areas, slash pillars of life and trying to evolve those, you know, like entrepreneur and the money game is one side of that, but worth loving. You should be looking at all areas because it all comes together and people who focus too much on business and they just put all their time and attention towards that. And they don't focus on keeping themselves in. In shape, going to the gym, you know, like being social with or saying sorry. Focusing on their. Their, I guess, personal help, happiness, like with their social environment as well. Focusing on their relationship with their family or with their friends. I think that there will eventually be quite detrimental to, you know, someone's health. So I think it's extremely important to focus on life as a set of pillars, mental health as well, spirituality, really just try to be holistic about the whole approach. You know, it's definitely an area that I've, like, dove it into in the last. I'd say like 12 months. Like one to two years as well. And I think. I wish it was an area that I like, stepped into, you know, on a much deeper level much earlier on as well. Even though I'm only 24 right now, but still, you know, I think you want to be really holistic in your approach about life and not just focus on business as well.

That's good advice.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think on that bombshell, yeah, wrap up the episode. We could go for three hours. We could go four hours. We probably will continue to go off camera. It's been a pleasure. Your first pod, I think. Yeah, Very fucking well done on the first pod.

Cheers, mate. Throat's a little bit.

I barely have to speak. I barely have to speak. Episode 70, maybe there's a problem. As always, subscribe to the pod. We're actually being pretty fucking consistent recently. Episode 70, that's kind of mad. It's like 18 months. Subscribe to the pod. We'll see you in the next one. Cheers for watching. Cheers, guys. Boom.