From Legal Career to Brand Building and Making Movies - Brad Morley | The Midnight Pod Episode 75

Foreign.

Fellas, another sponsor for the POD is probably something you're very familiar with if you're in the E Commerce space.

It's certainly something I am.

It's Wayflyr. Cash flow is the biggest killer of any fast growing E common brand, as I probably more than most know very well. Go and watch Episode one if you have not already. Wayfly is an E Commerce funding partner. Essentially they confront you the cash for a month or so worth of sales. You need a minimum of 6 months sales minimum 20 grand a month, I believe right now. Plus, if you've got a brand that you're super, super passionate about, you want.

To scale it quick.

But cash is a problem to invest in inventory mainly marketing, overheads, team costs, whatever it is, you can get funded in as little as two to three days. It's literally that quick. No bullshit bank loans, no personal guarantees. I've worked with them personally in the past, took a six figure sum off them. Plenty of guys I know in my network and people have been on the POD and run massively successful brands have also used them as a funding partner. Because everyone knows at scale, cash flow is the biggest killer. Even if you are profitable. If you think this could be a fit, potentially you could be a fit for them, then go click the link below, speak to the guys at waveflyer.

It's a referral link.

So we get a little fee, you save a little bit as well. Support the pod, support your business. Cash is king, especially in this market. Let's fucking go.

Right, we're back with episode 75 of the Midnight Pod and we have none other than Brad Morley, also known as Indigo Child Eth or whatever the fuck that username is. And he's the creative genius behind, I don't know if you can see this, the original Space Goods movie and classic. Pretty much all the, all the shit I've ever made with any, any of the brands I've done. And he won't come full time to work on my brand because he's too good and he can make too much money doing other shit. But you have an interesting story and you've never really done pods or you've done like one.

Yeah, not, not in a long time. I was obviously used to fucking host them for a little while. But that was back in when I was about 18, 19. So yeah, been over a decade.

And you originally were in the legal world, which is very fucking different. We'll dive into that.

Polar opposite. Yeah, that's where it was. Yeah, that's where I realized employment Weren't for me for sure.

Definitely, definitely. So if you go back to the start, where did all this begin? Like obviously we just mentioned you're in the world of law. Even before that were you always interested in like you said before we started, you want to fucking make movies.

Yeah.

Like big production stuff.

Yeah.

Not just making ads for brands like mine, even though that's still a pretty fucking sick place to be.

Yeah, 100% nice. Cool man. Yeah. So I think fucking if we go way back, like school, I was doing like art. Art and drama. I've done sports obviously, but art and drama were like my key things in school. Which kind of is like a full circle moment now with the whole movie making thing because it's a bit of a blend of both. But yeah, always been interested creatively. I think if we go right back to when I was a kid, like stories from mum and dad always say, like I wouldn't always need to have my mates around me. I was quite always imagination first in my bedroom just you know, fucking doing like playing with my toys in some sort of way like making stories out of it, little plots and that. So yeah, that, that kind of. I've always. Creativity and like movies and stuff like that has always been first and foremost have had lent like I do still like a lot of fashion and stuff. So I initially fought in school when I got to psd. I don't know if you've done PSD in school.

No.

But we had like it was up personal development and when it got to like year 10, year 9 10, that was when they were like, start thinking about your careers now, what you want to do. And I sat there in class and it was like the whole side of the room was full of trays A to Z. And each of them had like different careers in slot s, you know, s ad, stock broker and whatnot.

And.

And I had a little rummage and then I actually do recall completely sitting down and being like, I want my own brand. I always said that at first I thought it was clothing. So I was like, I want my own brand, I want to see my name on something. And the teacher was like, no, that's not a real thing. Like go and pick something that's not a real thing. So schools don't support entrepreneurship anyway, do they? So I just at the time went to the closest thing that I thought in terms of money. I thought stockbroker, that's what I want to do. Watched Wall street, got a little bit hyped over like city life and making money. So I just turned to that and thought it, that's what I'm gonna do.

Is that purely because the teacher said, doing your own thing?

Yeah, yeah. And part of me probably in my head was a bit like, I don't know, you're still young then. Yeah. Like I weren't like actively through being a kid, thinking about starting businesses and stuff. I wasn't that guy. But I would always be drawing, I'd always be creating, like making my own clothes and stuff, cutting them down, like kind of in certain ways. So I'd always played about with stuff in that sense. So I just kind of took that as like, perhaps that's not what people do as such. We were still young then. So I just went to stop broking, thought that's what I wanted to do because it said 100 plus salary on it to fucking. It kind of went from there really, and then got to leaving school, going college, left college and then went on boys holiday like everyone does and fucking come back and literally lost my voice and everything. And then in the car, my mum was like, oh. Cause my uncle was a senior barrister's clerk, so that's what I was doing. So he rung my mum and was like, I've got him a interview three days time. They need someone as a runner. I like to start up in that.

This when you were 18?

This is when I was 18, yeah.

So you didn't go to uni?

I didn't go uni, no. I went college and done business studies and.

Ever asked you that before?

Yeah, no, never went to uni. Never. It never appealed to me. I went college. So we had all like the college parties and stuff. I know it's probably not the same, but we was always doing parties and stuff. And then, yeah, I studied business at college, but I didn't actually do anything for two years. I think like one of the. Probably because they was all old people and none of them were successful business owners, so teaching a business course I think is kind of irrelevant. But yeah, we'd done like, you know, things where it was like, make your own brand and stuff. So I remember doing stuff like that. But yeah, come out of that and then basically went straight to an interview three days later. Because all I remember as younger in childhood was my uncle making a lot of money, like, and by a lot of money, I think, you know, six figures or something, like in the grand scheme of things. Probably not lows to some people, but at the time I remember thinking, he's got like acres of land, like he's doing well. So I just thought yeah it, perhaps that's what I'll do. So that was how I naturally got into it. So yeah, barrister's Clark And I know maybe if I tried a different profession, if I'd have like discovered I wanted to do design or something and went to an agency, I might have had a completely different experience. But I think that put me off majorly because it was so old fashioned. There was no young people in our chambers. It was full of old people. Like by old I mean like middle age and upwards. And I was all up posh toss which was the fucking polar opposite of me. So I didn't really fit in other than I just used to fucking put all my effort into what suits up.

Uni for that shit.

No, not as a barrister's Clark. To be a barrister you would because.

It'S like barrister's Clark is like what? Just like lower barristers?

Yeah, barrister's Clark's like. So they'll be like in a barrister's chambers you'll have like upwards of 30, 50, whatever barristers and then you have a clerks room which is basically the guys that get them the work. So you hold the relationships with the solicitors, you negotiate all their fees, you get them all their work and earn them their money basically. So you're like without, without you they don't get any work. So you're, you're responsible for that. But obviously when you start you're just like a fucking runner. So I was like pushing trolleys of like cases of files to and from court for the barrister. You just like skivvy for the barristers basically. And they do talk to you like. So I've done that for. I was actually in that job for five years but after two years I was all like there was, it was only quite a small chambers. So there was three of us in the clerks room, my boss, then there was a first junior which is his right hand man because the senior clerks will earn like a percentage of the barristers. So they all earn like six figures. And then there's the first junior and then it was me. It was only a small set but after two years I was staying later going in earlier, working through my lunch. I think I had two, I took two lunch breaks in five years that was actually working there. The rest of it I was just like eat and work and Obviously the first junior was he had a family like he was like 34, 35. So he was going home on time, you know, getting in on time, taking his full lunch and Taking a lot of sick days, and I never really took any sick days, so I think they recognized that. And I got closer naturally to my boss. So they was like, let's get rid of this guy and put him in there. And I was like, by this point, I was 20. So they basically got rid of him and then put me in his place. So I jumped from. I think I was only like 14 grand at the time or something stupid. And then they put me up to. I think it was like 32, 33 grand or something. But I was 20 years old and I thought, actually, I'm doing all right here. So that was kind of like. And I used to get, like, by my boss. He'd be like, you know, this is what you can have. Like, he had a big house in Kent and two big holidays a year. And I remember thinking, oh, yeah, like, he earns six figures. That's what I can do. Obviously, I knew my uncle was doing it as well, but on a bigger scale. Then after. I'd say about after the two years, that's when I naturally started to think, you know, I'm not enjoying this at all. Just like, wasn't interested in it. You know, I had no passion for it whatsoever. Got used to the money quickly and, like, he was floating stuff like, you know, next year you can be on this. And then, like, my uncle would be like, you gotta move to bigger sets. You can earn way more than that. But then by that point, I just kind of saw a different side to him. It was like, money's not enough for me.

You weren't living in London, were you, at this point?

No, I was living. I was still living at home and in Essex. Yeah. So traveling to and from. So that was nice.

That's where you live now?

Yeah, literally.

I always think Essex is further away than it is.

Yeah, no, it's not. It's not.

I mean, it's like an hour drive from here.

Yeah. There's like outskirts of Essex as well that you can get. You can get into London in, like, every day. Commute every day, hour and a half each way.

Do you enjoy any of it?

To be honest?

Like, so much to do.

No, the whole city life feel, you know, it comes. The spec is like, you know, city boys and all that stuff. I didn't really get that. Like, there was a lot of, like, lads in that job, like, a lot of going RB for every year. And they all thought they was like, you know, Billy Big Nuts and stuff, but I never really. It never really interested me. So I'D never like stay out after work and go out for drinks. I'd always go home. I just weren't, I weren't into it. And then as it started to wear off, I started to think, I've got to do something else. So when I was 20, I found I was interested in like my suits. So I got like nice suits and stuff. I work because the fashion side of it and all the barristers used to be like, you're the best one, best dressed one here. So I bought these basically knitted ties off of ebay for like three quid. And then I was basically. I bought, I bought, designed these little logos, it said BJM London on it. And I was, my mum was even helping me at the time, just ironing on the logos onto the back. And then I'd got like some fucking made up packaging from some DIY store, I think. And I was just started to basically because Shopify and fucking Instagram weren't even around then. Yeah, so this was all just Twitter at the time. I was using Twitter to like DM people and shit and, and obviously like people I knew. And then to the barristers, I was just taking them in and selling them to them. So I would sell them at like 12 pound each. I was buying for three pounds, selling at 12 pound each. I didn't have a fucking clue about how it all worked with like margins and shit. And then I used to have to pay all the checks in for the barristers on like my lunch, on their lunches and stuff. So I'd see all the money coming in, what they were earning. I'd have to fucking pay in like a skivvy. So I built relationships with all the banks and stuff. And there was a lot you, lots of young guys working here on the cashiers and stuff. So naturally started to sell to them. And then I used to walk because I worked on Fleet Street, I used to walk into like the suit shops, the independent ones, not the massive ones, and be like, I think you should get a range of knitted ties in here. You ain't got any in here. So I had a couple of them lined up and I was like, yeah, how many can you fulfill? And I was just like blagging my way through it. Yeah, we can probably do 50, 50amonth or something. I like no cash obviously, so I won't, you know, this, this. I sort of started it before I got the pay increase. So it was like I was earning fuck all. And then one day it started like people were noticing it. Just small circles and then one day, one of my barristers, it was really posh guy, he used to hang about with like Will and Kate and stuff, go shooting like, his mum and dad's like, Lord and ladies in Scotland. He said to me, let me have a look at these ties. And he had a look at one and he went, oh, it's polyester. I only wear silk. So I thought like some sort of prick. So I went home and I was like, researching how do I get silk knee ties. Obviously they were like triple the cost. And I spent one Saturday, weirdly, just like googling manufacturers and I somehow come across some Reddit blog and I found the contact to this guy that used to be the manufacturer for Hermes, the belts and the perfume brands and stuff. And I ended up on a phone call with him and he was going to meet me and he was like, you need 30 grand to put into this to get some stock. And I was like, fucking, I ain't got that. So naturally that just kind of died out because I thought I've not got the funds to do it properly. So I just, I just put it to bed. I didn't bother doing it anymore. So then I was on to the next thing. So gradually, what can I ask of, saw some ad online marketing, travel the world and make money doing. Not a lot.

Yeah.

So I started trying to do that and then I think I made about $90. It was some sort of pyramid at the time. Some guy driving Ferraris and traveling the world selling it. Yeah, exactly. So that I'd done that for probably, I don't know, six, seven months or something. Didn't earn a lot. And by this point I was, I was basically going. Getting up for work at like half five, traveling an hour and a half, going to work all day and then during the day, like, because my boss can really see my screen. I used to like doing my own shit and stuff.

Yeah.

And then I'd go home, I'd get home about half seven, quarter to eight, quickly have dinner, and then I'd go on my laptop till about 2, 3 in the morning, just like fucking trying to make money in anything. I was doing so much shit, just random shit at a time, just desperate to get out of it. And then gradually that led into. I started a podcast because I thought if I just interview. Fuck. I forgot about these entrepreneurs. Yeah. I've done so much shit, honestly, it's hard to keep up. But I started that just to try and like, get advice from entrepreneurs. Basically met some good, good people in America, mostly gave some Good feedback, good contacts, whatever. And then I started basically just creating graphics. Instagram was out then, so I started creating graphics to promote the podcast on social media. I was using a tool called Snapper at the time. This is when I just started to get into graphic design. So it's basically the equivalent of Canva, but not as big. And the guy that was running it, I think he was making like, I don't know, 50, 60 MRR a month or something like that. And so I got quite pally with him and he was like. Because I was using it to like more than what other people was using it for. It was for non designers obviously because I was investing so much time in it. I started requesting him to add features to the, to the tool. So I was like, can we add this? Because I can't do this, but I should have just gone straight into Adobe Illustrator or something.

But ever done design before?

No, not on that level now. Used to draw and sketch and stuff. But yeah, no, design other than that was my first experience into it. So I used to like request adding features and used to do it. He was like, yeah, this is good feedback. And he put surveys out obviously. So I kind of helped him build. He's like into a bit more of a better business model, I guess. And then I think I reached a point where I was doing too much on it. So I was like, I need to learn Adobe Suite now. And then I think for like six months he started. Then he was like my first client at the time. He was like, can you, can you run our socials by doing the. Using the designs from our app? And I think he was like, I'll pay you 300 pound a month or something. So I was like, yeah, perfect. So this is great. So I'd done that for a little while and again that sort of faded out and then I just realized I need to learn Adobe Suite. So it kind of did out from there, from there basically just derailed off and gradually started to learn my way on the app.

So you're 20 years old at this point still?

Probably. No, probably I was dipping into that marketing stuff for a year or so, trying to do some other stuff, learning design. I'd probably about 23 at this point. 22. 23 I'd say.

And you've been four years in the trenches as a barrister, clerk or Clark.

Depends how you pronounce it. I called it Clark that you showed.

Me when we parked one time.

That was exactly where it was. Yeah, grazing and yeah, grazing road, that was proper central. That yeah, yeah. Temple I used to go to and then jump out. You don't strike me. Someone that would work there when I ordered.

Now, Porsche or is that not true?

Most of them are, yeah. Most of them are entitled pre ex, to be honest. There was a few that was from like Somerset and that, but they would be looked down upon by like London barristers because they'd be like, oh, you know, you're not educated enough or something. You didn't go to all the top universities or whatever. But yeah, for the most part they was all. They was all posh. But yeah, it was weird if I think about it now it feels like a different life to me. Like.

And the podcast, I swear you said you did like 500 episodes or some shit.

Not quite 500. We done. I think we've done 150 fucking.

That was a twice as many as I've done.

Yeah, but I was recording three a week, so.

With different guests every time.

Yeah, I was doing it with someone.

My old mate did that, like make money.

Was that a business? No, purely just like a passion thing.

It was a passion I tried to turn into a business but failed. So I used to follow. Because they weren't really like UK podcasts at the time.

Yeah.

So I used to follow a lot of the American ones. So Pat Flynn, John Lee Dumas, all of those guys can help.

Pat Flynn, Yeah, Pat Flynn, yeah.

Yeah. So I used to follow those guys and obviously they used to publicly put their earnings on their websites.

Yeah.

To show every cent of how they made money from their podcast and it was always 150,000amonth dollars. And I thought, fuck, like we're early to this in the uk, we can do this.

Yeah.

So I used to follow those guys and they obviously was like affiliates with all of the tools they were using. It's like rather than Klaviyo now. I think the one at the time was Aweber. I don't know if you remember. Aweber.

Yeah.

So Aweber. It was like ones like that. So we sign up to all those, thinking that's what we got to do, like get, you know, get, get drive people to. To use that. But for a long time we probably was getting about 4 or 500 listens, like not much per episode, whereas these guys were doing like stupid numbers, 20, 50,000 episode or something. So we was like, right, I think we need to change it a bit now because there was still, although there wasn't any in the UK as such, there was still a lot in America doing the same sort of Podcast, I think ours was quite long so I was thinking maybe it's too long.

All online.

All online, yeah. Because we spoke to mostly American people. I don't think I had Stage one startup it was called.

I've definitely looked at this.

But we interviewed, we interviewed some big people in America, I'd say like Timothy Sykes, you know the trailer guy and all that.

Fucking some big names you're pulling out today.

Yeah, we. I can't even fucking remember now. The guy out of Goonies came on like Chunk. Yeah, we had him on, he's a sound guy. He sent me a signed book. Yeah, we was getting some good at good guests.

Who's the co host?

Greg. He was my old business partner. Oh, get into that. Yeah, he was like my best mate at the time. So I actually just to briefly touch on it when I was doing the tires thing and I realized I was probably time to get a website. He was like a IT guy. He was one of my best mates. But he was doing it and multimedia and stuff they called it was our commercial job but he was doing like commercial video editing and stuff like that and websites. So me and him went out one night on Sushi Samba. Sushi Samba in it, the rooftop bar, things like that. Yeah, we went out there and I was just getting pissed one night telling him how much I hate my job. And he was doing the same.

And I was like, you're describing most of Britain probably.

Yeah. And I was like, look, I'm doing this thing, I want you to build me a website. And then as the night went on, I kind of thought we were aligning on things. So I just said, you want to come in and do it with me? So from there he was basically with me on everything that I tried to do until he got to a few years ago with like the previous agency that I had, which we'll come to obviously because I've done fucking loads of shit.

But I bet it's therapeutic to get out on a pod. I find when you like map out, yeah your fucking professional life over like 10 years, which I've done a few times obviously on pods. Yeah, you just piece it all together while you're saying it and then you.

Say oh yeah, it is crazy. And yeah, and if like I go back and think of all this I used to dream of when I was in that job, just smallest things like working on my own thing from home, no one to answer to, you know, just earn like a good bit of money. I used to dream of like that like there would be Times where I'd, like, go into the conference room and I'd be close to tears. I hated it that much at one point.

So.

And now I feel like you get used to that then. Yeah, and then it's like, so true. You have to remind yourself. But, yeah, so I. Yeah, the podcast thing just kind of wrapped up, I guess I started thinking we got to do different things to, like, make this better. We was doing, like, some local London podcast network. We was, like, speaking on, like, little panels and stuff like that. I was going up from work and I felt like I was lying a little bit because I was, like, going from work and talking about it and kind of had to put on, like, a happy, you know, face as such, of, like, this is how well it's going. But in fear, in my head, I was, like, probably fucking close to depression because it weren't working out. I wanted to. But, yeah, so with the pod, I was like, we've got to do something different. So I started targeting big brands because I was thinking not a lot. Not all guests want to reshare the shit, the clips and stuff on their own podcast. Probably a bit easier when it's in person, but at the time they was like, they might like it or something, but none of them really was sharing it. So I was. I approached, you know, Gerald Adams.

Yeah, yeah. Put out some names I've not heard in years.

Yeah, same.

He did Elite Daily.

Yeah, that's it. Sold that 50 mil or something. He started some business called Founders Founders Network, I think it was. And it was like an incubator for brand startups. Basically, they'd invest some money into him and help him scale, and he was doing it for his personal brand. And I wanted him on the podcast, but obviously he was too big at the time for us. So I basically said to him, look, I know you're pushing this founders thing with your new startups. How about we feature an entire month dedicated to founders? We do it as a collaboration. We'll bring some of your best startups on, and then we can use that, me and you, to link. And he was like, yeah, I love this idea. So we done that. So that got us a lot of eyes on our stuff, because obviously then he had an incentive to share it. And then also we'd done the same thing with Secret Entourage, which was another big fucking American thing, which basically facilitated all of these e comm entrepreneurs in America to start businesses. So then the main guy from that came on, Pejman Ghadimi, I think his name is. Yes, with all the cars.

Yeah, bringing back a lot of names.

He's deep in the archives. So we basically. That was our then unique thing of the pod because it was like we're doing these monthly collaborations with different people but it hit a point where it was just unsustainable. So we did get one sponsor by some guy and we thought this is where it all begins. I think he was paying 800 pound a month or something. We had a deal for three months but obviously he didn't really benefit anything from it because our listeners probably weren't that big. And then I just sort of thought this ain't moving quick enough. Like I need something that's going to bring some cash in. So then naturally we started going into the agency. So I then basically started this agency with Greg at the time.

Is that still while working full time?

I was still while working full time. It was in like the last year of it.

So how did that transition happen then? What was the agency? How was that starting alongside, which is where most people start, I guess. And then how did that go full time?

Yeah.

Finally jumped free of the matrix.

Yeah. I mean if I'd have started that earlier then I probably would have been out quicker. But so we started that and then was like, right, what we gonna focus on? And at the time I just assumed that as an agency we've got to act bigger than we are. Let's offer design, let's offer branding, let's offer video production, let's offer all of this shit. Which at the time I didn't. I probably knew 10, but I was just like Richard Branson method. You know, just say yes and learn it on the way. So we got all like the website. Bill started getting like business cards together and stuff and then I think maybe got like one or two clients. One of my. One of our first clients was 304 Clothing. Oh yeah, yeah. So we basically pitched them on. They had like a really good story. Did you know? No.

Okay.

No, I didn't know him before. I just, I followed him on Social, I think. So I knew him individually and we pitched them on like basically telling their story for a documentary series thing because nobody had ever done that with them. And they had like obviously Dave come on your podcast, but they had all out the fire in a warehouse and stuff. So we can do a really good docu series on this. No one else is doing it as a brand. So again we winged that because we didn't even know how to do that sort of shit. Greg at the time was very basic on video. So that was like our first proper job. And then because that kind of overlapped with the podcast, I got Danny Buck on the podcast when. Because we was both in. Do you know. You know founder by Nathan Chan? The.

Yeah, Founder was just Nathan Chan as well. Hell, you're pulling out. Adam's laughing over there. I had a big night out. Did you not just with him. It was in. Don't know if Adam's there. He's pretty laughing. It was in Barcelona, 2018.

Oh, is it?

And I'll never forget, he was so pissed. Like Rolex before? No, he said something like Rolex before Roli or some bullshit. It was just like some funny phrase about what you should do when you get rich or some bullshit. Very pissed Australian man.

Yeah. But, yeah, he's done the whole thing with Greta as well now.

She was there as well.

So, yeah, he. We joined that founder thing because it was like a grow your Instagram page at a time. Fucking like.

You joined their course.

Yeah, this is another thing. Yeah. So we joined the course. Me and Greg split half the money and bought the course. It was grow your Instagram basically thing. So he's like, right, let's grow the pages and we can use that to get business. That was what we thought was the way.

What was the agency called, by the way?

So shit. It was called GB Media.

Oh, right. I thought it was something else.

Yeah. But nobody could pronounce it because I'd like a funny way. So we spelled it like G E, B E. So it was meant to be for Greg and Brad, but it was like an acronym for Good energy builds excellence, which, again, is so shit. But we'd done that and nobody could pronounce it. Probably they was all calling it Gabe Glebe Gabe and all this shit. So I was like, that's. And it sounds so corporate. So we'd done that. But obviously Dan. Danny Buck was. He'd started Circular as a Kickstarter campaign, so he was in the founder course as well. So we met through that and then I asked him to come on the podcast. It was very early days of him starting. I think he had lots of success with it. So I was like, let's get him on. And then, like, it got to near Christmas. I can't remember what year it was now. And he sent me a voice note on WhatsApp and was like, do you. I've got an opportunity for you. I'm gonna start something called Brand Builder, which is this academy for.

I bought.

You bought a plan. And I was Gonna say, I remember that.

Yeah, I forgot about all this.

Yeah. So he said do you wanna. Do you wanna come in on it with us? It's gonna be me, Will, who you also know. Cause Will was running his ads for Circular and his email, I think do you want to do. And Greg want to come in with me and do the like create like the content side of it, the production and stuff. Because we're going to do like a.

YouTube full time on the creative stuff by now.

No. So I was still in my job at the time.

So I was like what, four or five years ago?

Yeah, yeah, probably about. Yeah, I was, I think when was on Spain, 2019. I was in Spain. I was 25. Yeah, I was 24 at this point and obviously I was like, well we've just started the agency and he was at. Ah, but this could be a big opportunity. Like think about it. So he's our. By this point we've been pitched by so much because of the podcast. We got pitched by so many fucking startups. Like come in and do this with us. Because we started to like build the network out.

Yeah.

And I was just sick of saying yes to everything and nothing like working. So I was like that's it now let's just focus on this. But this sounded like a good idea at the time. He was like, yeah, we're going to help like Ecom brands. Because I think by this point, by the time he messaged me, he'd started the other brands like Crafted and Honu. So he was like, I've got a few. I'm going to basically do these plans. You want to come in with it? So I was like, yeah, so let's meet up. So we then all met up in London, filmed the first. I mean we probably had like group chat or something on WhatsApp first but we recorded like a YouTube series, done like a day of brainstorming, was going to open this academy, this call, sell these plans and whatnot. And then we'd obviously, I mean fucking. I don't know how deep we're going to go into this. But we then went out for dinner and as far as I was aware the arrangement was going to be we're going four ways on this. Which I think three of us thought was the plan. So I was like, in that case, let's stop doing GB media for now, put it on the back burner. I'm going to go all in on this because this has got more chance of us doing well. So we'd been doing that for like on the side of jobs again. So I'd come home, do my plans. I was doing like creating plans. It ended up being like. It weren't just us doing the content. We ended up.

So you were writing the plans?

Yes.

Did you write my fucking plan?

I probably did it at one point we. I'd done like segments of it. So the plan was like pre built to a degree. Then they'd get tailored to each brand, obviously, so Will would do some on like the marketing parts. I don't even really trying to think.

Back to when I bought that. So if a context. I bought a brand builder plan before I launched Midnight City. I think it was pretty good to be fair, the plan.

Thanks.

I mean, it's just. I'm just thinking back though, because it's funny because.

You start at midnight, you're getting samples.

That was end of 2018.

Yeah, 20. Yeah, it would have been 2018.

2019, mid 2018 samples, launched it late 2018, then relaunched it. Started 19. But yeah, it's funny. Yeah. Looking back, I'd never buy something like that now because I know that.

Yeah.

I wouldn't need it. Obviously. You don't know what you don't know until you know it.

Yeah.

And then I would have been like, oh, this person, whoever, whoever. I don't know what context I bought in. I can't remember like what I watched or anything.

But yeah, yeah, it was probably the YouTube thing, right. Because it like Dan. Dan was like the face of it, obviously, because he was the one with the brands.

Yeah. Like sort of circular actually.

Yeah, yeah, probably that. So like we. Like the parts that I used to do with the plans was more on like the branding creative stuff because I've been doing it for a couple of years on the side, so I had an inkling about it and we'd get like some pretty shit brands, like without sounding horrible, there were some pretty shit brands buying it. So it was easier for me to be like, I know what looks good on clothing. Most of them was clothing brands. So I was like. That was where my input was. I was like, you need to. They was all logo brands and stuff like that, so this needs to change and whatnot. So they basically get tailored to each. So I ended up being way more engrossed in just doing. Not just doing like the social content, so I was doing the social content for it as well. But then we also had this like Academy membership, so I was doing that. And we'd done it for a while when it started earning like decent money and then we Met up again and stuff. And then it was like, right, is getting like. Dan was obviously getting busy with the brands. So he was like to order. To grow this properly, like, we all need to be all in on it. So I think Will was all in at the time because he was already freelancing for Dan. So he just naturally was. Was already kind of in it. But me and Greg had to obviously leave our jobs. So I thought long hard about it and there come a day where I think Dan was like, we just got to kind of sink or swim. Like we can pay this out of the money and then, you know, let's just get it going or. I think he said he was gonna fund out of his brands or something just for us to get out of it. So I then dropped. What was then, I don't know, two and a half grand a month or some shit that was getting from my job to about grand a month. I was still living at home, but obviously like getting the minimum out of it. So by this point, obviously I left my job after a holiday. So it was like April2018. I think I would have gone full time on it or June, sorry, June by the time I got out my contract. So June, full time on brand builder. We'd done that obviously for the rest of the year. Started to get busy. I think maybe sold like 500 plans or something. But obviously it was quite labor intensive because we had to go through all the plans. At one point I was doing like fucking 10 plans in a day, like, and that's just like mundane to a degree because you're just reading the same shit. And it obviously started to do better, but then there was more pressure on growing it and then fucking it just. It hit a point where it was basically just me and Will doing it. Dan was too busy with his brands, had minimal input, so there was like some conflicts of like, oh, you, you need to have it's your face running it, so we need you more involved. And then obviously as it grew and we was doing more plans, he didn't want to give away too much because he. He was saying about the conflict with his brands and he didn't want people starting them to outdo his.

I think that's why I bought it actually, because I was like, hold on, this Don has a brand. I'm building a competing brand because it was.

Oh, yeah, I think he had crafted. Yeah, he would have done.

Yeah, because I did like just before I launched.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think I was sampling before I knew about it.

I think that's what it was. There was obviously like, yeah. Started to recognize more people coming through, starting very similar brands. And he was like, I don't think we should. He wanted to change the whole direction of it of like let's. One week it was something, the next week it was something else. And as we're getting deeper into it, obviously it's earning more money. I started to think what was it.

Like 500 quid for a plan?

I think it was 250 at the time. Yeah, 250 at the time for the plan. Then it was like a monthly subscription.

Too cheap that innit? Because when you're doing all the manual work.

Fucking yeah.

It's like the opposite of what an info product should be.

Yeah.

It's like all.

Yeah.

And scalable.

100%. Yeah. And obviously it got to a point where. And I'm the wrong person for that because guys like that will be like, look, you know, you can just give that plan as it is to anyone and just change very small details. But in my head I was like, I don't want to give somebody. I don't want somebody to come up online and be like my plan is exactly the same as yours. Because naturally that happened, you know, with some. So I would probably go over the top on some plans and make sure they was extra different, add more pages.

So you were the E commerce expert behind all of these pending either failure or successful brands. You wrote my fucking plan.

I probably did write a plan. I recognize your name for sure when it circled back. So yeah, fucking done that. And things like it was getting to a point where I was like, you know, I need to get more money. Like things are earning more. Why we're not getting more money out of it. I know obviously I was understand with we need to put money back in but there's only I need to fucking live at the same time. And I just felt it was more one sided at that point because it become just basically me and Will running it. Because Greg moved to Mallorca at this point and was basically not really doing anything. And then obviously Dan was just doing his brand so he weren't really involved in it. So it was just me and Will running this thing. And then Dan kept chipping ideas to like change the direction of it. Let's turn it into investing in brands so nobody copies my brands. And Will was like, no, that's not, you know, we need to keep it as it is, blah blah, blah. And then I approached conversation with Dan and was like, look, you know, I want I've not had any contracts yet. I'm doing this all on fucking handshake. What's going on? I want my divvy of it. I don't. Not even necessarily to have more money now, but I just want to know that I'm invested and I'm going to get something long term. And then obviously he was like. The conversation then changed because then it was like we was basically just working for him and he was like, oh, but it's a part of my whole group brand. So you'd be asking me to give you a piece of the whole group of brands. Brand Builder group, yeah. Brand Builder wasn't set up as its own thing. It was obviously under like all of his brands. So he was like, you're basically asking me if you want a piece of all of them. And I was like, no, let's just set up Brand Builder on its own and go four ways. Because that's how I, you know, I thought the agreement was. And obviously he was like, ah, that's not really thingy, you know. And it kind of went on for a little while. I was like, okay, well, see how we go go with it. And then as I say, it just got to a point where I felt out of the dark with stuff. Like he was going to like investor meetings and we were just kind of getting dictated to what was happening. And I was like, well, he was talking about bringing in this investor guy and this guy was gonna like insert like 500 staff or something into growing it up. Because I think he worked with like EasyJet or Ryanair or some shit. He was like some multi millionaire. And I was like, well, don't we get saying this because that also means where do we line it? And yeah, it was just like. It was just conflicts, you know, things. I just felt like we kind of led on to do something, to just get involved and run it. But then I was like, we're running this at minimum wage and we're not getting nothing for it. So it got to a point where Will left first. And by this point I'd moved to Spain for a year because Molly started working with Dan. Yeah, so he basically clip the shit.

Out of this podcast.

I know. Yeah, she basically, she started. He asked if she wants a job being customer care for all three brands so she can work remote. So I always said I want to be able to work anywhere in the world. And then obviously I was like, well, if you do this, then it means we can go to Spain because you're not here at your job. So she done that. We moved to Spain. We was there for 2019, I think. I was there probably.

First time you moved out?

Yeah, it was actually. Oh, shit. And we went in like a week, two weeks. That was crazy. We found this rental, so life was so much easier about it. We found this rental and then we literally, like virtually viewed it on, on a camera. On her camera was like, yeah, we like it, we'll have it. So we moved within like a week and was there. And then within about three weeks, two weeks, Three weeks, Brand Builder fell apart. So I end up leaving. Will left first. So that was just me, Dan and Greg and it just weren't. There was just no real spark thing there. Will win and started something else. And Dan thought he was doing it to compete against him because it was basically similar, very similar thing. So it just kind of like got a bit messy and then things were getting a bit sour. So Will left first. I rang him and said, I think I'm gonna leave. And he was like, if you leave, then in 24 hours I've got two clients for you that will pay you. I think the one one one's been after you for 12 months because they see the content you're doing for Brand Builder, they're desperate to get you on. They can pay you two and a half grand a month and then I'll pay you through mine. I think it's 1500amonth. He's like, so I've got four grand a month here just in your pocket. You can, you can, you can do it tomorrow. So I was like, fuck it. So I sent Dan a message, I'm quitting, blah, blah. Then obviously he was like, ah, let's work it out. But it didn't work out that way. But then obviously I felt bad on Greg because Greg was like, oh, so what we gonna do now? Should we do our agency? And I knew that Will gave me the opportunity to like, do my own thing. But I'd felt this tie to him because I was like, well, we started things together, I should really bring him on it. So I said to Will, well, I'm going to do it through the agency because we still had that set up. We just didn't use it. So me and him done it. And then that's when I had probably the next six months of focusing purely on that until things got sour with that as well. And then we folded it. So I just kind of had the last straw then and just said to him, I need to fold this and go on my own. So I Folded it just before Christmas or it took a few months. And then I started Indigo in January and then that's when. Well, it was around Black Friday. I think I brought you on, wasn't it?

Where does Indigo come from? The obsession with Indigo? Indigo, it's just a tone of purple.

Oh no, it's got. Yeah. There's like spiritual meaning. So Indigo Child. It kind of stemmed from Indigo Child.

Because you've got the tattoo as well.

I have, yeah. I've got Indigo Child tattooed on my arm and I got it on my.

That's your username.

Got it on my jumper. Yeah. That's become not a person.

Like, where does the deeper meaning come from?

So. So Indigo Children is obviously quite a big spiritual thing. There's a lot of like.

Yeah, I just. I've literally never heard.

Yeah. Like there's loads of other people that call themselves Indigo Child. It's not just me, but I classify myself as the Indigo. Yeah, no, it's like a big spiritual thing because there's like loads of underlining things that connect with what they say. Someone is an Indigo Child. Like you might even. If you might even be one. There's like touches. There's touches of like adhd. There's also touches of like creative. Gifted as creative. Don't comply with like conformity. You don't fit in. You know, there's like loads of different.

I've just googled this.

Traits of. Yeah, if you put traits of Indigo Children, there might be some stuff you think.

Yeah, that fucking resonates with graded blueprint of humanity.

Yeah, it's quite wild children who are.

Believed to possess special, unusual and sometimes supernatural traits or abilities.

Yeah, that's what got me into it because I was like, I feel very different to everyone in the way I think.

Yeah.

Things I do maybe more of a self belief thing more than anything. And I just. I also like. My favorite color from like a kid was fucking purple. I was a purple shit. So I was like, I like that and then. Sounds silly. I think the, the final thing that tipped it over like the Chris Brown brought an album out. He's not my favorite artist. He brought an album out called Indigo and I was like, that's it now. Like this is another sign I should be calling it because yeah, there's like that. There was that type as well. So I just. Yeah, I thought it suited as like a agency slash creative house is what I call it now. That like was very different and creative thinking and. And stuff like that. Like my tagline at the time, I Think was gifted to create something like that. And I had an obsession with eyes because when I was a kid, I had this necklace with, like, this iridescent. It was like a 3D eye. When you look at it, it looks like someone's actual real eye, but it's, like, iridescent. And because my nan passed away when I was, like, three, I think my dad at the time said, like, oh, that's nanny's eye. Like, so I used to wear it on a necklace. I don't have it now. I need to find it. I can't find anywhere. Been stressing about it for months, but I used to, basically, when I was younger, I used to, like, go, oh, look how big I've got. So. Because I thought that was her looking. So I always had this obsession with eyes, so. And that fit with Indigo. So I was like, right, that's what it's gonna be now. So that's why I called it Indigo. And then Indigo Child stemmed from that. Cause I was like, I want, like, a personal brand identity that's separate from just Brad Morley's, you know, so.

So how the fuck did you get so good at editing and all this shit?

Did this.

Does this gradually happen over part time when you were doing it alongside the job, or did you, like, go on some crash course?

Yeah, no course. Yeah, I think just gradually fucking doing it over time, I guess, for myself. And obviously, like, we. We took on some jobs. Like we took on. My first ever big campaign was a Black Friday campaign, which is pretty wild because they're stressful at the most best of times. And that was a 304. And that was like a. That was. That was the first time I sort of, like, jumped in the deep end and was like, let's just fucking do this. And it was for their Black Friday campaign. They wanted to do, like, this stockbroker theme where, like, oh, stocks are dropping.

Yeah, I've seen that.

That thing. So we had this whole idea, and I was like, we can green screen. We can get some fake news reporters in. I even played one of them, put a fucking wig on. I was like, all in on it. And we had some other influencer girl. So, like, we basically set out this whole thing and we had green screens, which we didn't put up properly. It was all crinkled and everything. And I was like, yeah, I can take that out and add shit in the back. I had no idea how to do it. I just started to touch on Premiere Pro at the time from, like, Illustrator. I knew Illustrator quite well. By that point, because I was always designing Stills. But Premiere Pro, I was like, right, I need to get into that. So I. That was my first thing. And it was just YouTube, like, just fucking deep on YouTube, like, how to, you know, key out green screen backgrounds and how to add keyframes and stuff like that. So that's kind of how that started. But I started a really stupid way. I used to design. I found this the other day on my story highlights. I used to design all. So each, like, text slide, you imagine like a text. Like an ad of different text. I used to design every slide in Illustrator and then I'd import it into Premiere Pro, just, like shorten and add. So everything was very. Just like, basic movement and nothing crazy. And then when I did ever venture into some more motion graphics, I'd basically just rip templates off of, like, some motion array website and, you know, just. You just change the text and stuff. But it was never really mine. And then I got to a point where I was like, I really need to learn this properly. And then, yeah, just more. More into YouTube. But I was still using Premiere Pro. I never touched After Effects for a couple of years. And then the first guy brought on with Indigo, the first editor who still works me now, Josh, he'd come from an agency called Elvis Agency, and they was doing, like, Cadbury's ads, and he knew loads of shit. Like, he's been doing After Effects for, like, seven years. So I effectively used to get tutoring lessons off of him. So I was paying him to edit for me. But then on like a Friday, I'd be like, can we do, like, three hours where you just teach me After Effects? And I found that I was overusing Premiere Pro. He was like, it's much easier for you if you use After Effects. You can do way more with it. And then from there, it just kind of led. I just got deeper and deeper into it and just Fucking. Yeah. And now that's pretty much. I use them hand in hand, but I mostly use After Effects.

Has it always been you and him? Because I swear it's always been you working on my. Or at least it feels like it is.

I always work on your. Yeah, there's been some times where I'll get. No. So I've got. I've got. I've got a few. I've had more. I had a guy called Phil as well, who was really experienced. I started out pretty much backwards, so I was always. I've always been a perfectionist and always very picky when it comes to content, which is probably why I've not become some multi million pound agency at this rate, just because I don't want to lose the quality. So I've kept it tighter. But I hired people that were better than me and they was obviously more expensive and basically all the money we was making, other than a very short amount for me to pay myself in dividends, I'd pay them. So I hired Quick. In the first year, I think I got like three. I say Quick, I got like three guys. But obviously they was all asking for a lot of money. And then after about a year I thought actually I need to learn how to manage a team properly. And I was still very much involved in the brands like that was working with because I didn't want to let go. I've always had like an issue with letting go and just like letting somebody else do something because I might have ideas for it and I think I want to explore those ideas. But I know somebody else might not have the same ideas. So I've always kept it lean. Still got a small team of editors, but yeah, 80% of the time I've always worked on your stuff because I feel always a bit different with you. We've worked together for a long time.

Quick one, fellas. You probably heard a few months ago I dropped an E. Commerce. Very fucking guru of me. But it's not that. I promise you. 0 to 1 how to start a brand from scratch with no budget. Some budget, a bit of budget. Take your idea from a bedroom to reality to potentially 7, 8 figures in sales like I've done a few times based on my seven years of experience in the trenches and my current experience building my current brand space goods is no bullshit, no frills. We've had like 75 people go through so far. Not a single person has asked for a refund. Plenty of people have actually built some seriously impressive covers every aspect of the business, not just the front end stuff like Most gurus on YouTube and Twitter are talking about. Not just product, market and all that, but the real, the logistics, the back end, the supply chain, the customer service, the finances as well. This covers the whole spectrum, every part. 12 hours of video. If you're interested in scaling a brand zero to one, actually turning your idea finally into a reality, then click the link below, go check out Learn RealCommerce.

Course and let me know what you think. I'd be glad to have you in there. Let's fucking go. Do you think that dilemma of like creativity and then just scaling. I know you said to me you debate it all the time. Yeah, because with like social media, like smma, agencies, ads agencies feel like it's way less creative. It's more about just scale. Yeah, they all just fucking scale it. And that's why most of my shit, because they don't give a fuck about.

Clients and yeah, 100%.

But yeah, like do you think you'll ever check? Do you want to be at the core of it, like in the trenches, editing stuff, creating stuff? Not just editing, obviously, like producing, directing, like the fucking movie.

Yeah.

Or do you think you'd ever.

I think yeah, I think yeah. It's always been a hard one for me. Two reasons. One probably the perfectionist side, it's like a double edged sword. Right. Like it's good for quality, but it's not good when it comes to trying to scale and delegate stuff and just fucking be sustainable. So. But, and then also there's another side of me that's like very indecisive. Like there's almost like too much stuff that I want to do. So for a few years I had a struggle with just sticking with one thing. Like even on the side of Indigo, I was setting up like canvas, you know, like motivational canvas store.

I remember you did that? I did that as well. That's what that was. Neon beach was originally that. Yeah, that was the first ever one I had.

Crazy. It's still sick.

And I didn't scale it.

Yeah, it's a hard bit. I think it's a hard business and was hearing from people because I liked Iconic. They were like my favorite brand.

I'm so doing anything right now. I've never seen.

They are still pushing it. They get a lot of licensing deals. Right. So they got licensing deals with Rocky, Michael Jordan. Like they've got. I think that's their big piece.

Yeah.

And they've done a lot of NFT stuff. But yeah. So I've always struggled with sticking with one thing and then obviously just the constant burnout of not being able to sustain everything. So it was only like within probably the past couple of years where I was like actually fuck it all off. I'm just gonna stick on Indigo now. And I've floated in and out of this whole lot. I've had like probably three people now that said, let me come in and help you scale it. People that run out agencies or people that run fucking other successful companies, friends of mine or whatever. But because of how things ended up with Brand Builder left such a sour taste in my mouth. I've never wanted to do anything like that with anyone again, I'd just rather stay on my own. So, yeah, it's a hard one. Sometimes I think actually I'm gonna scale it because we will get like an influx of work, but then I'll reach that point where it gets too much and the quality drops because I'm using other editors as well.

Do you consider yourself an agency or a freelance creative?

Yeah.

How many, how many editors?

You have two main editors and then some that I just use more ad hoc basis. Yeah, I hate the term agency and I hate the idea of an agency. I. I don't see it as like a fun business. So I've always rebranded it to just being. We're just a social creative house for DTC brands. That's what I call it. Yeah, but it's somewhere in the middle, I think it's like. And I was having this conversation with some like new client the other day was like, I'm happy to keep it lean. I'd rather keep it more of a cash flow business for me. Like pays my, pays me. You know, money puts food on the table. Keep it lean so I can work more closely with brands I actually enjoy rather than just any pick of the bunch because we've worked with some and I've had zero interest in. And I think as I keep seeing.

Your face pop up on the fucking period paint, I feel slightly off brand giving. You're a male.

Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, we said it so. Exactly. So that's that. I actually said I don't want to be in anymore, so take me out of them because I want to build on my personal brand and we'll come to that. But yeah, I think like I've got to a point now where I just, I select who I want to work with and I keep it lean and tight so I can give 100% to all of them. Still keep some editors, obviously. Done a lot of UGC myself. It was popping up in fucking everywhere. Mainly started with space, to be fair. I did some before that, but space was like the big, the big driver.

You're probably the most viewed probably in that space.

I always say I'm the fucking. I'm soon to be the go compare guy. Everyone's gonna start hating seeing this guy again. But yeah, I started to notice comments like that on ads, which was like for other ads that were doing well for different brands. And I was like, oh, this is the mushroom guy. Or this is guy that was just selling gaming chairs. He's now trying to sell his. And I Think although that was good and I still will do some mainly for spacers just because I'm more invested in that. And we've done it since day one. Like I've been with you since day one. But for the most part I've kind of had a realization not so long ago where I was like, do I want to end up being this 40 year old man, you know, in time that's just on fucking known for doing these UGC clips or actually do I want to make movies and build on my personal brand and be more like Cole Bennett vibes because I've always admired him. So I'm kind of at the middle at the minute. I'm just sitting as it is basically an agency. It is not just me. Although I'll lead the campaigns on most of it. I probably will stay working or always will stay working with like the bigger clients that we manage. Some more engrossed than others. Like the relate the working relationship we've got is one of one. I don't have that with any other client that we work with. I'm basically just a part of your team. Right.

Like so it feels like full time.

Yeah.

I'm always surprised when you say you have other clients.

I know. Yeah. And I used to be, I used to be funny about that first because I never wanted to like people to think, oh you know, we can't work with him like that. So I've always made an effort to be like very engrossed in. In people's businesses. So they can't get rid of me basically. But no, like I'll pick, pick and choose some. Yeah. Technically is an agency. But I just, I've got to a point now where I've been more realistic about turnarounds. So we've got set packages now and it's like it's not this most sustainable way of me doing it because it means. Right. These are the deliverables. None of this like other than we've got flexible. But like anyone else. No, no one gets flexible because I can't keep up with that. And it means that I can utilize the editors for other stuff sourcing other creators so I don't have to do ugc. I'm starting to phase myself out of UGC basically so I can build on my personal brand because where I was like what I list in my account and I started popping up in other ads and I'm like that's actually gonna damage my profile of what I want to become.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'm stepping out of that and I'm just. I'm gonna keep it lean, keep it work with select brands. Small but good size, enough to earn decent money. And on the other side of it, we obviously do campaigns and shoes. So I want to get more into the high production stuff, which will ultimately lead me into movie directing, which is the end goal, pinnacle for me. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of where we're at.

What's been your favorite campaign shoot you've done?

Oh, space as well. Which one?

One or two?

I liked both. I know your favorites. The first.

Well, which is not.

It's not great for me to hit because I think.

I think they're both the last thing.

Although the first one has.

The second one. We definitely got carried away. That was just me indulging myself.

Bit more fun.

I want to spend money and feature in this movie. That was fucking legendary.

Yeah.

I guess the first one will always be iconic because I still to this day think, even though it's only three minutes long and like, yeah, the output to budget of that campaign is probably the world's greatest ratio. As in how good it is, even how cheap it was.

Yeah, I didn't know.

Yeah, I was in Minus. Yeah. I don't think any brand will ever do something as unique in a new space as that.

No way.

It'll be ripped many times, I'm sure.

Yeah. The funny thing about that was at the time, this was me blagging my way into that because that was like our first. I'd done shoots, but like, that was like our first proper shoot for me.

I don't even remember how we came up with that, to be honest.

I think you just. We was obviously already working together. Cause I'd worked with you on the previous brands and then. Yeah, because it was the launch of spacecars, Right.

So obviously over a year ago now.

Just for context, I suppose, like, we. I worked with you since Midnight City, which shout to Will, actually, because he put me in touch with you.

Yeah, he's in my ads.

Yeah, he was doing your ads and he said, I think he sent me a screenshot of your story, which was like, we need a creative or edit or something. And he was like, you need to speak to him. You know, I think his exact words were, he drives a green R8, he's caked, you can get good money out of him or something. Although, yeah, I don't think we've done anything crazy anyway, was it?

No, we didn't.

And I was thinking, yeah, I'm keen to work with the brand and Stuff I'd seen it floating about. So, yeah, jumped in on Midnight and then obviously he started Neon. So I jumped in on that with you. So. And then I didn't hear from you for about a year, I think. Yeah. Because obviously in between once you. Because you left Neon and Midnight or Sold and. Yeah, whatever. Exit. And I was still working with them under the new management.

Oh yeah.

For a little while. And it was very like. Because I went from obviously me and you working closely on it and your vision of it.

Honestly, that period is a blur.

Weird. Yeah.

I think strange time. The shittest year of my life.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what it is.

Learn a lot.

I was getting the Messages when I'm WhatsApp. But I think. Yeah. So obviously once you left, I weren't speaking to you whilst I was still working on them for a little bit. And then obviously they came to an end because they was buying out by different companies or whatever. And then you was in the process of. I mean that was your shit year. Right. So I didn't hear from you. You just started this pod, I think.

Yeah.

You were just starting new products by.

The time in September 21st.

Was it safe Whining.

And then I started playing around.

Yeah. The sample. Freaking hell.

Yeah. It's actually mad that Space Goods was gonna be a teeth whitening brand. I think the point there is I was just so keen to launch anything that I was like, yeah, you're hacking shit myself. The mindset I was in, crazy. But yeah, I wasn't afraid to do that. I get my fucking hands dirty, literally. And then I pivoted about a day later.

But when. When you.

I'm very glad when you pivoted.

I remember we went out that night, do you remember, with Will and few hours in London.

Yeah. That was like the most depressing period of my life. I should not have been drinking. I should have been tea total. I think I just broke up my ex as well.

Yeah, you did. Yeah.

There's a lot that happened then. So that's when I started the pod. After all that.

Yeah, we were still like speaking on and off.

Everyone knows this story, but not a lot.

So around that time, that constant creative, that Nick Shackelford.

Yeah, yeah.

They was launching the UK version and was like, to Will and whatever and me Jews want to run the UK side. So I was gonna do that on the side of Indigo. Tried it for two months and hated it because it was all very shit quality and low cost stuff. So when we went out for that night, I remember Will Saying, we need to get Matt, he's a new brand, we need to get that running on constant. And in my head I was thinking, nah, I want to get Matt back under fucking Indigo, doing it properly. Cause I knew it was an exciting brand. And then I think, yeah, within a couple of months, I think you said.

It is quite mad.

I need to launch a campaign.

So it is mad. And nostalgia when. I mean, it's the same with anything. But that brand didn't exist. I mean like the movie. Nothing exists.

Yeah.

Until you create it.

Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah.

Over a year ago, come up with.

An idea and just turn it into a thing. And now it's quite a big business.

Yeah. So I think that was. I think you hit me on WhatsApp was, I want to do a camp. Do you? Do you. I think you said, do you do shoots? And I was like, yeah, oh, I've done. I've done some shoes, I've done some shoots for like physion and stuff. Yeah. But I was using a different videographer then and I. We didn't get along at all. I used him on some stuff with like Kelly Jane and stuff. Yeah. And I didn't get along with him. He was very, like, he was a bit older, so like his style was dated and Yeah, I just didn't like, he was very controllive. Like he want. I wanted to direct it, but he was saying his narrative and taking control. So it never worked out. And then I think before that I was trying to get him to do that for me, but I couldn't get hold of him because he was doing some other shit, filming with Kerry Katona or something. So Jordan had been. Had messaged me a few times. I'd seen him floating about and we got chatting and I was like, can you do me a rake? Because most of them was fucking charging through the roof. I was like, can you do me a rate? I just want the assets, I want to edit. And we got chatting and then I liked what he was sharing and I saw he done festivals and concerts and all that. So I was like, he's definitely got experience. And then so I come back to you and was like, yeah, we can do it. And he was like, have you ever. I remember, I remember you saying, have you ever worked with him before? I was like, yeah, yeah, we've worked together. But that was actually the first time me and him ever worked together. It was the first time I ever met him. So we did take a big gamble on that one. And also you didn't know what I was capable of from editing point of view?

No idea.

Because we was only doing ads under charge so much. It was to be fair because I was like for one, I didn't know how to charge for shoots properly. Two, I really wanted to do the shoot because I thought this, this is going to be a movie and it could also be a good, a good move for me to show what I'm capable of. So yeah, charged that and pulled endless all nighters on that one. Yeah.

Christ.

And then obviously it came out. It came out well, it's good synergy that day, I think.

Have you had many inquiries off the pod slash that movie?

Loads, yeah, yeah, yeah, loads. I've had, I've had like, I don't know, three or four mushroom slash nootropic brands.

Just saying, can you rip this?

No, no, not so much that more can you work with us? And I don't know, I felt a low atu obviously, so I was like, nah. But yeah, loads, loads of inquiries. Just generally about content off the back end. Yeah, yeah. I've had some calls with people where they're booked in for like this is from like our ad stuff more than the movie.

Yeah.

And they've been like, ah. So I, I spent hours scouting multiple midnight podcast episodes just to find out who Matt was using for content so I could get in touch. Like it was to be fair, I've had crazy amount of inquiries just coming from space goods. But the movie did lead to one interesting campaign which never happened and that was this sex toy brand. And I thought he was asking me to feature in. At first I was like, no chance. But he was actually saying, can you direct it and piece something together? And I thought this could be fun. But it never materialized. I think I was too busy. So I never got back to him.

But fuck, I say literally every day I want to make more movies and spend more time on that and just always falls to the bottom of the list.

Yeah.

But it's gradually getting there.

But that, that first shoot was when I realized, okay, I want to direct and I want to bring more ideas to like, I don't just want to edit. I want to, I want to. I enjoy that process of directing. Like even like little details. Like you would obviously have people to do production design and stuff. But like all this set design, I feel like we just, we smashed it all. We got all props. I was driving to like hours away to just pick up an old TV for the props. Just make sure it was perfect.

And the posters in the background Posters.

Yeah, we dove right into the 80s for that.

I think I need to put some ad spend behind that. Yeah, it's a legendary, legendary video that.

That was. Yeah, that. That made me think, actually, maybe. Maybe there's more to what I do. Maybe because of this agency. Like, I. I am interested in personal brand, although I've never done it. Like, I'm probably the most incognito person in the creative space. Like.

Yeah. So have you changed on that then?

Definitely.

Especially in the creative space, you kind of need a fucking personal brand to an extent.

Yeah.

If you are the asset.

100%. I think I've, like, yeah, people have always judged me or found me or whatever based on client work as opposed to my own shit. Because I'll just be stale on my own personals. But because of the perfectionist thing, I'd create something like it. Then maybe a day after, I'd critique it and be like, it's not good enough for me to post. Even in reality, it was ridiculous because most people would be saying to me, it's genius. I love it. But in my head, I think it's not good enough. So I'm not posting it. So I've just never. I've never posted anything. And then it's only now I'm thinking.

Actually start a YouTube channel.

I'm actually gonna. Yeah, I thought about that like a week.

Everyone's so scared to do it. I was fucking scared to do it. Yeah. But then when you do it, usually. Yeah, positive.

I do. I do like the idea of pushing the personal brand thing more. I think I want to keep Indigo just for, like, the ad content and, like, just creative generally. I have also set up Indigo World, which is my end goal for films mostly turning 30 at the end of this year. So my 30th year, I want to create my first film. Yeah. I've, like, partially scripted it about two, three years ago when I started that space page. It's called Superhuman. So there's something I want.

An Indigo World would be like your.

Paramount Pictures or Warner Brothers or something. Just. I don't know how it's going to work yet.

So when you say, I find this space interesting because I just want to make a fucking horror film one day, but I won't be the one. I don't know. I'll just get someone to make it. I'll get you to make it.

Yeah, yeah. If we can get. We can do it.

When I'm retired, I just spend all my money on horror films that flop. But, like, if you were to go and make. Don't know if you even looked into it. I don't know how this works. But if you say you want to make movies, would you get funded by, I don't know, a studio, hypothetically, and then you hire the team? Actually, I don't even know how movies work.

Yes.

It's, to be fair, Mills, to do big ones. Obviously.

They do. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is probably something that I'm still trying to, like, wrap my head around, what my approach is going to be. But you obviously have things like film festivals, so if you create independent films.

Yeah.

Then you can go and do, like, Cannes film fests and stuff. And obviously, if it gets the uptick on votes and awards or whatever and people like it, then I think that's when it can get pushed to bigger deals and.

Yeah.

Going on Netflix or whatever. But there is ways of doing it independently rather than the commercial route, so I think that's probably. I'm probably going to do more. So, like, the level I'm talking is like. Like Cole Bennett, which I've mentioned, he's obviously does a lot of, like, music videos, but I know that he wants to do short films and stuff, and I think he's just done some piece for Super Mario's film. That's probably the closest thing I can compare myself to because I struggled with that for years. Like, who am I? What do I want to do? Who do I want to be? Like, it was, like. It's been an ongoing thing for ages because I've always felt it needs to be better.

Is it not a bit of you thinks you should be in la? I don't know. Is that just a stereotype? But, like, with the opportunities of cinema. Yeah. Being in Hollywood not be beneficial.

Not necessarily, because there's a lot of filmmakers over here as well.

Yeah, definitely a lot in London.

And also, like, if you're going to take the route of, like, what Cole's done, Cole apparently also mess it. So Lara, who I've gotten on producing stuff now.

Oh, is that the girl I keep seeing get tagged by Jordan?

Yeah. So she's gonna work with us on the space stuff as well. I basically use it for everything. Clift.

Yeah. Okay. I know who this person is now because she always fucking likes my shit.

Yeah. Yeah. She. She's. She's been on. She's done some crazy shit. Like, she's. She's worked on. She just finished the Gymshark campaign, which was, like, 120k budget. Like, she was the producer on that. She's. She's been festival like a film or what? No, it's just an ad.

Is that on YouTube?

Commercials? Yeah, I sent it in 20k earlier.

Oh, did you?

Yeah. All that stuff that. The ones you were sending me earlier liquid there for all of them. I sent them to her. I was like, what do you reckon budgets are? She said, well, I know for a fact Gymshark's probably 100 plus, but a lot of them probably 50 to 80k for commercials because it's like high.

The wild one was that.

That would be. That would definitely be up crisp. Yeah. And that'll be.

It's like. It's hard to describe why it's better than a cheaper one, but it just is.

Yeah. I think. Yes. Just the production level. Right. They go to town. The small details.

And the movies we did were close.

We did well with the budget considering. Because. Because for that like. And this is something that she's been telling me more of and like educating me a bit more on is there's so many components to it that you don't even realize. Assistant directors, there's obviously producers that. And the producer. I didn't even know what producer was at first. Like, I was like, what actually do. She was like, you give us a budget, we make it work for that budget. So if you said we've got 10k for a shoot budget, what can you do with that? She will basically make sure that gets utilized to the best, you know, in terms of locations, in terms of models, in terms of props, in terms of crew, like whatever. And then they just like prep and plan everything and it just makes it run so much better. But yeah, there's like fucking assistant directors, there's costume designers, there's set designers, production, like there's. There's runners, there's light lighting guys, there's gaffers, there's all sorts of shit. Like it's crazy really. So. And then obviously like something like that Gymshark campaign, the Jordan was filming on it. But he's one of 40 camera ops.

40?

Yeah. Because they do different locations. It's in US, then it's in UK then it's. They'll do like four different location scenes and so they will have different people to. Rather than taking it all down and going. There's just a crazy amount of productionistics.

Of a good video is actually mad.

It's crazy. Yeah. Which has made me. That's what made me think there's way more to this. But also interesting. It's quite catch facts I think that's probably my way into it, maybe how I want to do it, because I. I could, like, I wouldn't be against something like the music video angle. I feel like it's quiet. So, like, you got like Troy Roscoe, who's fucking insane. He started off as a cam up and then he used to film, but then edit the shit. He's done lots of KSI and that, but now he's more a director. So whenever a project drops of his, there'll be like 50 different members on the credits, like, and he's directed, but then there'll be somebody. And they've done stuff like Tiger and Lil Wayne and everything now. So he's somebody from Birmingham who's working in the US as well. So I think if I take that sort of route, then it probably is more into it, but I just don't think the music video. I wouldn't be against it, but I don't think that's the way I want to go into it. I'd probably rather do it from like a. Go into it from a campaign perspective. So, like how we've done stuff, working with brands and then maybe some independent films or something.

Our Rainbow does explain a video that looked like a fucking 40K shoot.

Yeah, yeah. Come out well. So, yeah, I think, yeah, there's. There's obviously ways of doing it, but I think for me, I don't want to. Like, I love James Cameron. I think artistically from like a film director point of view, that's probably the sort of shit I would want to do, like Avatar, like that. Those sort of films where it's just crazy on visual effects and, yeah, that's like end goal territory for me. So I bought like a master class of his and school says just so I could study. I've not even. I've got like 10 through it just because they get time, but it's like on the back burner. That's. I want to learn as much as possible about filmmaking and then do my own one. I'll fund it. Like, that's also why I want to keep Indigo separate, cash flow business. And then when it gets to next year, I'm gonna start filming this independent short film and I'll probably just start like that. I know some people in the industry, like people that have just won baftas, family, friends, so I've probably got contacts that can get me right into it. But I don't want to take the commercial route of it. I'd rather do it from independent, whether it's like the way that Sam Calder and stuff, they make films.

Right.

But like, they're. They're more like social filmmakers, content creators. I'll probably take more of that approach in and then see where it goes. I mean, Lara's potentially got me. She tried getting me on like a Sky gig the other week to edit. So there's potential, some big brand stuff that I could get in. And it's just defining. Am I going to push that from my personal brand or am I going to do that through something like Indigo World and just keep it separate? I don't know. I'm still talking about I won't be.

Able to afford you next year. That's the problem.

No. Always want to work with space. Hopefully, space will be massive piling. So we can.

We can spend 50k gym, shark in it. 500 million in revenue.

100.

There's levels sitting there. Like 100k to them is like grand to us all day, literally.

Exactly.

So.

So, yeah, they've got disposable, but we'll get there.

Definitely. Definitely. What was I gonna say?

Before you do, am I gonna be able to get into that car park?

What time's it shut?

10.

This is pretty sure. It doesn't shut.

Does it not? Because it said it gets locked from when Waitrose shuts or some.

It doesn't have a barrier.

It's not.

It doesn't have a barrier. And it doesn't have a little barrier, I don't think. No, I've never seen it.

I'm sure I've come out of here well late before.

I've had people leave at 3am well.

And they've parked in there.

Yeah.

Oh, fine. I should be able to get in there then.

I think 10. I think 10pm is a myth.

Fine. I did think that. That's why I remember you saying that first time went in.

Well, I've missed this dinner anyway now, so.

Oh, have you?

Well, it wasn't planned, literally. That's where Adam's gone. I won't go. How deep are we in 77 minutes.

That's not so bad.

That's pretty long.

Wait, wait. What is that criminal?

One hour seventeen.

Okay. It's not. I'm thinking in my head it was going over two hours.

No, it would be a fun red wine. True. But you are good at speaking on these. To be fair.

I'm not speaking too much.

It's the full story.

Tell me. Fine. Yeah. I just got too much. I mean, there's probably. Yeah. Stuff I could go deeper on, but. Yeah. Yeah.

So you're obviously doing shit that when you were locked in a barrister's chamber crying that you wish you were doing. But like probably now in your fucking creative chamber with all obviously bigger screens and just not wearing a fucking suit. How does, how does the day to day look like? And how would you like that to change? I feel like everyone has a fucking routine, but they always think, oh, I wish I could do more of X. I mean, for me that's a. I always say I wish I could spend more time making movies, but then I self inflict myself to just fucking sit on my computer screen getting shit done. Which is probably a lot of that for you, is it? Or you want you on set? No, these days, definitely more.

Yeah, more. More so than, than I used to be. Because yeah, things will come up and we'll have campaign shoots and stuff, but for the most part I'm still 90%. Yeah, probably 90% in my office still. And I don't know, I think I like it. Like I enjoy something about that. Like, I don't think I've not got like a huge. Like I've got. I've. I've dabbled in thoughts of like, do I want an office? Do I want to. Yeah, I'm saying get people in. But I think what excites me more about that is having an office. What would my office look like? I think I would care more about the fucking aesthetic of the office rather than the actual pros of having an office. And I think the no tires thing, I enjoy being remote. I enjoy my own little office space. So I think it will always stay like that. Obviously with us having like in the process of moving to Spain, that's probably even more so a reason I'd want to build my own office in the garden or something, you know. But day to day is. Yeah, probably for the most part, whether it's deep in edits or on storyboards and stuff, because I'll choose which ones. I'm like deep on edits now obviously. Always space stuff, but other than that there's only like a select few that like I'll dive deep into. Other than that, it'll be me storyboarding stuff and briefing editors and feeding back and just overseeing stuff like that. But I think it kind of changed once I had Lennon. She's.

How's that? How does that change things?

Yeah, that definitely change things a lot. So she's nine months now.

So that's gone quick.

Yeah, it's gone so quick. Yeah, because the first shoot we did, Molly was still pregnant at the time. But, yeah, she's nine months now and that has definitely changed my routine a bit. In some ways. I will still have periods where I'm fucking working loads, so I'll go back in for the evening and work or whatever. But part of me as well with her is like, I don't want to waste these moments in life where she's going to get bigger and I'm not seeing her. And I remember way before I even wanted kids. I always knew I'd want them at some point. And I always used to think if I could work from home, because Pat Flynn had that. It all started then I was like, he works from home, he's able to see his kid when he wants. Whether it's dipping out of the office for an hour or, you know, 10 minutes or whatever, or just being at home rather than the commute. Yeah, I like that. So. And I've also. I lost a lot of my fucking early 20s or most of my 20s, to be honest. Just working, working, working. Like, even Molly, like, I went through a phase of not seeing her hardly at all. I don't even know how we're still together in that case, but she understood what it was like. So more recently than not, especially with moving to Spain, I've been like, well, I want. I want more balanced work life now, but I want to be able to come away because a bit like what we was talking about earlier, I feel like there's a part where you hit.

This Oi. Office.

You digging. My dog does that.

Digging into the.

My dog literally does the same thing.

That chair has just become his, like, edible toy sack.

Yeah, but no. Yeah, I think, yeah, because. Because I feel like I lost part of those twenties where I probably could have been traveling or some because I was so desperate to get my job. And then obviously I was all knee deep into building the business and making a good income. I feel like I want a more balanced life now and to enjoy it more. So I've started to come off for the evenings. Like, what we were saying earlier about that whole. You get, like, what Steve Jobs said, like, you get like three key decisions in your day once you've made those decisions or done what it is.

Yeah.

You know, your brain's turned.

Yeah. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, I literally. I've probably got less about it now, but, yeah, feeling, like, guilty for not being at my desk, Even though it's 100 unproductive a lot of the time.

Crazy. Yeah, exactly the same.

Toxic. Just don't know. Yeah. I don't know where it comes from.

I. I would have that as well, where I would go back on my laptop even. Or I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna come and sit in the lounge.

Yeah.

To, you know, because I'm away from my desk and I'll come and sit out there with Molly and I'll be like, I'm gonna work on here. And I'll be falling asleep, like, some. And I'm just doing nothing. Like, by the time you think I've sat there on my laptop from seven till. Oh, no, probably like eight after dinner and stuff, till like, gone midnight. And if I look at what I've actually achieved in that time, it's basically all. And then Molly used to always say to me, like, why don't you just do it in the morning? Because if you send that piece of work now, your clients aren't going to see it. They're in bed. And I'd be like, yeah. But I didn't want the anxiety of waking up to messages of, like, how we getting on? And then I've got to start it and it rolls into the next day. And yeah, just hit a point where I was like, I need to be more channeled in. In a segment of day. And then I ain't fucking going back on for the evening. I need to. I need to have a break. Because especially with creative, like, it's only so fucking much juice you can use in your head until you hit a point and you're just producing bland shit, really. It's like that famous quote I saw in a book. Like, creatives need time to sit around and do nothing. I feel like partly do. I've got holiday coming up for the first time in fucking about five years, which I'm actually not work. I'm gonna try. Yeah, I'd definitely not. Definitely not. Edit. Yeah, check in. I'll have to check in. Physically, I can't go away and do nothing. But I'm gonna try and utilize the editors more and just rely on them more and just make sure I get as much as I can done before I go. And now I'm stressing. So we got this big campaign coming up. But as I say, yeah, I need, like, you need a reset because, like, I had one late 2021 in Spain and I. And I actually holiday. No, it was like. No, it weren't really, because I was still working on Midnight then as well, so I was taking calls and stuff. But more. More like 80% of the day I was doing nothing. Basically, like, with Molly and stuff. So I actually did get enough, like, a chance to fucking breathe and think. And after about. I went away for two weeks. After about a week, I was. Then I hit a point where I was like, this is nice, but I'm now twiddling my thumbs a bit, like, yeah, I'm thinking of different ideas and I'm excited to get back into it. So I do think you need fucking time for everyone's sake. Like, all right, it might mean you wait in another week to get some assets or some shit, but when you do, they're gonna be a lot better than they would be because we've got new thoughts going around and stuff. So, yeah, more of a balanced life, for sure. Also, not to put a negative spin on it, but lately I've got this whole thought of like, hell, what if I. What if I used to die young? And then I think, what have I achieved in that? Other than works the whole time? What's it all for? I need to live a bit, you know. Oh, that's a negative downplay on it. It's also more of a, like, wake up thing of like, how would you.

Define actually properly living a bit. Is that making movies or is that going on holiday, getting pissed? I think it's just some people would say the work is. Is like the creation of something.

Yeah, obviously that. That part is probably a huge segment for me, but especially now with like, Len and stuff, like, I've seen different parts to it, which makes me think, actually these little moments are way more important than, you know, anything I could create.

But it definitely does change as you get older than it.

Yeah, it does. And like, just like little things, like just.

I don't feel remotely close to being mature enough to have a kid, but I never did that view on certain things. It's definitely grown over time.

Yeah, I think it does mature a bit and like. Yeah, so I guess, I mean, just like having more time for me, whether that's. It might still be work. It might, but just not client facing stuff. Might be self development on. Because I want to learn more visual effects. I want to learn more 3D. I want to learn more filmmaking. It might just be. Actually, I want some time this evening to fucking work on my stuff, like building my skills up and learning more and. And stuff. It doesn't. It's not all necessarily just me sitting around because I hate watching TV anyway. But, like, I don't know, maybe I want to watch some fucking movies. Like, you know, because that ultimately is gonna lead to what I want to do. So just, yeah, just like less client facing is what I mean by the balanced side of it. And yeah, obviously more time learning. And Molly.

Yeah, that little detail. In 10 years time, what's the ideal setup?

10 years I'll be touching 40. I would have definitely liked to have launched my first film, independent film, before then. Way more filmmaking. Indigo kind of running itself, like doing its thing. Me overseeing stuff, more directing, sort of role, just to guide it in terms of where I want to go with it. And yeah, just more. I want to put way more into like my personal brand. So develop as a director, as an. As an editor. There's like a few key guys that I follow, which I think they're like ideal directions for me. One is obviously Cole Bennett. I see a lot of similarities in creative style and stuff. Two is Gibson Hazard. I think the guy's insane. He's done that Drake stuff and everything. And yeah, obviously Troy Roscoe is another one as well. But there's also another one in. In France. But they do like big brand stuff and big celebrity stuff. I think that's. I want to. I want to dip more into. I think there's more I can offer to working with big brands, whether that's brands online, whether that's people. But in the film Space, 100 is where I want to be sitting.

And also in Spain.

Also in Spain. I mean, the ideal setup is having like a wavy office, just plugged in, writing movies, editing movies, looking at a nice sunset. And that's me. Sweet. I'm good with that. Then obviously on set, like dipping in, out. Yeah, I saw this thing the other day, which, not steering too far. Fit. But some filmmaker in America has just bought, I think, 40 acres of land in like a desert in America. And he's basically built multiple film locations on that piece of land and he rents out, which I just think so sick. Part of me was saying somebody the other day, maybe we should just get something with a bit of land, like inland Spain. I'll just fucking turn it into a big movie. Movie place. But yeah, just bit more into filmmaking and building on my personal brand. I'd want to. I want to be renowned for. Oh, that's that fucking guy. You know, I mean, I got fucking genius tattooed on me for a reason, so I need to live up to it.

Yeah.

Geez.

Everyone starts somewhere, don't they? That's the thing.

Yeah.

No one that you look up to with a billion followers and all this notoriety in an industry that had the first thing.

Hundred percent.

Whether that's a brand Or a movie or.

Yeah, start somewhere, doesn't it? So yeah, I think that's for me.

Final question, as always, three bits of advice to your 18 year old self upon reflection.

Cheese. One kind of double edge sword, I guess. But I would say try a lot of things still, which I kind of lent into, but find something and invest a lot more like everything into that. And if you really, you know, if that's the thing you like. So I try, try a lot of stuff, find the one thing you, you think that's for me and just go all in on it because that's one thing that took me a long time to do. As I said, I was always. I'd find one thing but then I wouldn't be satisfied with that. So I'd always be like doing other things alongside it. So find something you're good at and put all into it and make something of it. Two, don't care about what other people think. Because I definitely did and that's probably why I was in my job for five years. I was still living at home. I probably could have quit a long time before that and just fucking put more time into it. And I always say I wish I started earlier. So yeah, don't care about what people think if you're gonna let people down or whatever because family and friends will naturally try and steer you away from and steer you into the safe option. Just play into like take the gamble and just try, you know, you can always fall back. And three, don't be so hard on yourself and critique yourself and your work and your progress. Don't compare because again, that was something else. I've done a lot. That's probably why I never posted anything because I was always. I'd get good comments from people like fucking genius at that. But then in my head I'd think I'm nowhere near where I want to be. So I never post anything. So yeah, don't, don't compare. Be proud of what you've done, post it and just constantly progress forward. I'll probably say my three things.

Boom.

Boom.

On that bombshell, it's been a pleasure.

Thanks for having me on.

You can clip the shit out of this for the next 10 years. Quote yourself when you finally got that massive patch of land in Spain or elsewhere and renting out zombie movie scenes to me. And I've hopefully made a billion quid from the brand that I'm just making movies come around full circle. As always. Subscribe to the podcast. See you in the next episode. Episode 75 that's kind of mad. That's quite a lot.

Crazy. Doing well.

They fly by and we'll catch you next episode. Cheers for watching. Peace.