Hitting 1 million+ monthly listeners without a label - Santino LeSaint | Midnight Podcast Episode 17

Well then, diving in to episode 17 of the Midnight Pod, similar to Last episode, I still got a bit of man flu, so I probably sound fucking weird, but we've got our second musician and fucking, I'd probably say like the most famous person on the pod, to be fair. Not to suck your ass, but it's true. Santino. That is your stage name, right? Yes, yes, it's the real first name.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fake second name.

All right, cool. Yeah, yeah. So I actually first met Santino about two and a half years ago when he was a model. Still is a model, but when we'll get onto that. But more into music and shit. And he was on. Yeah, modeling for Midnight, basically. So I remember we did, I think, was it one shoot or like a few shoots? I don't know, I feel like it.

Was two, but I can't remember where.

The first one with a guy called Dave used to shoot a lot of represent stuff and it was like, yeah, fucking ten hour shoot. Loads of different necklaces and broke my nail and shit. But no longer involved in that brand, as everyone knows. But yeah, yeah, that's how we met basically, and then just found out we have other mutuals and it seems like a fucking small world. But yeah, I just think like with every pod, this was gonna be like an E. Comm. Entrepreneurial podcast. But then I'm just interested in getting different types of people from different walks of life on. And I've always been interested in music myself, as I was just saying, starting my freestyle rap career on the side, which may or may not go anywhere. But I guess first question as usual, and Tokyo's fucking buying, I guess again, just really good. What is your background? I suppose, like, where do you get started? Obviously a lot of people watching will know who you are, I'm sure, but hope so. You're like five, ten minute intro. Yeah, we'll dive into a lot of shit.

So, yeah, Santino the Saint, that's my name. I'm 23, I'm from South London. Started making music. Really? I mean, you know, when you start. I could say I started at 8, 9. Really? Because yes, when I like first started writing songs, but I started releasing when I was like 17. My dad's a musician, so he kind of taught me how to produce and how to play guitar and little bits like that. And yeah, in college I started releasing covers on Soundcloud and that kind of started things off. Like, nothing really blew up or anything like that, but you know, just kind of put my foot in the Door. And then after that I started doing gigs. So I actually did like two or three gigs a week for like a summer and like a month after. And I think that's, like, kind of what helped me to, like, start my career. Like, nothing was going crazy at all, but it definitely pushed me, like, the right direction as far as work ethic. And then a guy messaged me on Facebook called David, who's now my manager, saying, I just seen a video you did on this platform called Sofa Sounds. Do you want to link up? And I was like, link up? What are we looking up for? I don't know. You, like, this is weird. I'm just trying to make music. But whatever. He said he did some stuff with sbtv. I was like, cool, maybe this is cool. Ended up becoming really good friends. Turns out he wanted to start, like, a label thing called Cloudx and he had a studio in Brixton. Turns out it was next to my house. So it was like fate, really. And we just started making music together and really the rest is history, you know, just kind of kept putting releases out, slowly grinding, you know, it was never. It was never a moment where, like, you know, overnight this has happened or like, I never had no CO sign, never had no big label budget. It's like me, David and my boy Ben, who basically all make up Cloudx. And for a long time it was us just working out of his house now. Super grateful to have, like, different people on board. I've got a distributor who helps out loads, we've got a couple girls in the office now, like a couple PR agencies and stuff, so it's going really well. But yeah, bro, long grind. Long grind.

I saw you pass. You said a million monthly listeners. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a million. I saw it on Spotify because I don't know what that was. Like, two and a half. Where was that two and a half years ago? Because that would have been when I first came across you.

That would have. It would have been 150, maybe.

Yeah. 150.

Yeah, it was all right. But, yeah, it was definitely lower. I mean, it's funny because that number fluctuates lows depending on how many playlists you go onto, which is why you can see a lot of really big artists with no monthly listeners. And then all of a sudden with lows, because you set up five features with big artists and you just share your monthly listeners. So I could do a song with someone with a hundred thousand monthly listeners. Tomorrow, my monthly listeners are going up to near enough 100,000 but being able to get there with no features, no cosign, no major label is like, you know, the best thing that is. So I think it's the first thing I've been proud of, actually, like, musically just being able to do that with my friends. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's pretty sick. Yeah.

Was that like always you went to college doing what, like music or other?

No, stuff? I actually, I did. I went to a music secondary school. But like, you know, that's, it wasn't like a super music school. It was just like a standard. Looking to bite my sleeve.

Yeah, fuck.

It was just like a standard, standard music school, you know, I mean, and in college actually didn't do music. I did graphic design and 3D design because that's what I wanted to do. And music was always just a side thing. Yeah, no, I didn't study music in school. I did my grades in like my early years, like year seven, year eight type stuff, but I studied graphic design and architecture because that's just what I wanted to do, like, as a career. But I always knew music was the thing, you know, especially like my dad being a musician and I was still performing and doing shows and all of that. But I guess there's a point where you have to think realistically, right? Especially that at that age with parents and like in school, it's like, you know, I can't turn around and tell all my teachers I'm going to be a musician, so I'm not coming to any of these classes or whatever.

Yeah.

But yeah, as soon as I got to like 16, 17, I was like, yeah, there's no, there's no other way. Really.

And was that when you went full time, like, officially or.

No, actually, I, I, that's when I started not giving a fuck about being popular firstly, like, I was in college.

Like popular music or popular being a.

Popular kid in school. Yeah, I was like, all these popular kids are fucking lame, bro. So lame. So I was, I'm gonna spend all my, all my lunchtimes in the music classrooms just with like all the music kids just having fun, not say they're not cool because I found them cool. You know what I mean? But quote, unquote, popular kids.

And yeah, I feel like kids that are popular when they're 16, generally rule of thumb is that, yeah, probably not doing much when they're exactly 26 or whatever.

Exactly. And it always comes to it now, like, those type of kids always message me like, yo, like, you know, so sick to see you doing what you're doing how it's been so crazy since college. I can't believe it. And I'm like, was not that crazy, the fact that I just spent two years in a music room every. Every lunchtime when you're just smoking weed. Like, not even to say I wasn't smoking weed, because I did, you know? I mean, but just saying, like, it's not that crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I guess I got lucky. I fell in love with something, so. But I went to uni as well somehow, bro. Yeah. My attendance was under 10%, but. Ravensworn.

All right.

Yeah. Graphic. Graphic design.

So not even music?

No, no. Mad, I know I was meant to go to Nottingham. Nottingham. Trent. And do architecture, but I got the. The course, like, schedule, and it was like five days a week. I was hoping for, like, three days a week. Yeah, yeah. My manager was like, if you want to make music, can't be going to Nottingham. And I was like, it. So I deferred on, like, the day, the first day of Unique. And I was like, okay, cool. I'm just going to choose architecture. I mean, graphic design. Sorry. Because they had two contact days a week for like, two, three hours. So I was like, okay, cool. I'll be able to juggle music with this. And it was crazy, but did it in the end, so, yeah, no complaints.

So you actually finished it?

Yeah, I did it.

Oh, yeah, I came out. No, like, me, all the other guests.

You dropped out?

Yeah, I dropped out twice.

What, the same place?

Yeah. Well, I did business for six weeks and then graphic design and then advertising.

Okay.

All in the same uni, but, like, went back a few times.

Mad. Yeah. Where'd you go?

Northumbria. I fucked my A levels, so. I should have gone to Newcastle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I got, like, Bs and shit.

Yeah, I fucked mine too. Same shit. Yeah.

But yeah, I guess looking back, like, it fucking makes sense. All the dots that line up or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's mad. And then modeling. That's how obviously we met.

Yeah.

What's the story with that? How did you get into that? Like, where does that sit now? How has that changed since music's got bigger and shit?

It's mad because it's always been like, a backseat thing, if I'm honest. Like, I. I've never really been too interested in modeling.

Just.

Yeah, I mean, use it. Why not? I mean, if someone tells you you can model, I'm like, if I'm going to make some money out of it. But what I don't like is I don't like being sold dreams. And that's what the modeling industry really is. It's being sold dreams and favoritism and it's all good. You can make your money out of it. And, you know, it's all fun partying and obviously fashion is a super big part of music, but, like, yeah, I learned that I can just occupy all these modern spaces as an artist, which is what I am. Like, I don't want to. I'm not trying to be a model, you know, and I just get so much more work as an artist anyway, so I modeled for a bit with a couple of agencies, and I'm still on one now, and it's all love, but it's just like, I don't put. I don't put my energy into being a model, you know, I put my energy into being an artist and a musician, because that's what I am. And then, look, it's back. And then, you know, I mean, take it from there. Really?

Yeah. When you say soul dreams, what do you mean? I mean, I'm certainly not in the fucking modeling, but I've always. I've watched, like, documentaries and shit and like Vice, you know, Vice videos where it's like, the guy's got a deep voice in this industry.

Imagine one of those about modeling new juices about drugs.

Yeah.

I mean, when I say that, I mean, as we all know, like, you know, the. The modern industry is. Is a very savage place to be in, I think, especially for young women as well over young men, just because of, like, the. The impacts it can have on, like, people's mental health and your body image and stuff. But it's also just people. It's just so. It's like fast fashion, right? They just. They can just cut you and take you as quick as they can. Like, they asked me to. They asked me to shave my hair off. So I shaved my hair off. Really, eventually. Because they said they get me more jobs. They didn't get me more jobs. They said I needed to get my Instagram numbers up and I get more jobs. I got my Instagram numbers up, didn't get no more jobs. Told me I needed to get my music numbers up, got my music numbers up, didn't get me more jobs. Like, it's just. They had.

Did they see that as linked?

Like, yeah, because I was. I was on their books as a. As a musician.

Okay.

So. But I wish they have. They have talent boards. And my. And my thing is, like, it's not even that I have hate towards Them because I get the game, I get the industry. It's the same with like record labels and everything. It's just that I don't have time to entertain it. And I used to entertain it and be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna wait around and do this and hopefully someone will give me a handout. Hopefully someone will give me a job and it'll help me blow. And like, it's not that. You just have to go out and get it yourself. And after being told so many things that I'm sure loads of other people have been told because most agencies have their like, you know, top five people, top 10 people. After being told all those things and they're not coming through, I'm not gonna sit around and, you know, wait to blow up and then have these people get their bag off me. Like, nah man.

How do you get started originally in modeling? Yeah, your fellows.

Quick one. First bit of promo for the pod. You may or may not have heard I released a fucking E Comm course a few months ago. Basically spent like six months making it. Cause I was in between businesses, as you probably know. If you follow my shit, I must say, 12 hours long. It's fucking quality content. I was gonna drop it at like 1500 quid with some bullshit guru y webinar and all that rubbish. But as you know, it's not my main thing. I'm working on a new brand right now, very, very fucking much in the trenches. Which is why I think it's actually a better course than everything else out there. Cause it's built on real experience of my brands in the past and my current one. I think it's super, super valuable. If you're interested in E Com, you're already in E Com and you wanted to get into E. Starting a brand from scratch then definitely worth investing in. Link is in the bio of this video or podcast, Spotify, Apple, Music, wherever the fuck you're listening or watching and enjoy the rest of the pod.

I think. I think I got scouted by a couple of agencies at the same time as reaching out actually. Because I think a lot of artists, regardless of if they're like traditional model looking back to that sleeve in it, regardless of if they're traditional model looking or not, start to like enter the fashion industry. And it's the easiest way to go through a modern agency.

Yeah.

So they kind of just like their teams reach out to people and they go through to it like that. And that's kind of how it worked with me as well. But. And then when this music stuff started going well. I got, like, scouted by a couple of other people. But yes, it's cool, man. I have a lot of friends in the modeling industry and a lot of agents who I love. And, like, my agent at the moment is actually one of my really good friends, but, you know, she knows how I feel. I don't. I just don't really. I'm a musician. Like, I don't, you know, I don't really care about it too much. I love fashion and I love art and I love, like, doing creative stuff. But the modeling industry? Nah, same way. I don't even care about the music industry that much, bro. Like, yeah, Yeah. I don't even feel like I'm a part of it.

Really mad.

Yeah.

And just on modeling, to feel like people intrigued on that. Like, pays pretty well, doesn't it? Like, if you're in a decent agency, does it really fluctuate?

Depends what jobs you do. And it depends who you are because you can get paid. You can get paid, like, the same amount. We can get paid different amounts for the same job, basically.

Can we move him? Why he's being retarded so much.

I don't.

He's normally fine. I don't know what the. He's here. Do you want to just put him in my room or something?

There's just something about this bit of sleeve.

Yeah, Honestly, he's done it to, like, five guests. Really fucking. It gets too much that it puts people off. You just put in my room and open the balcony so we can, like, piss or whatever.

I don't mind.

And then shut the door as well because it'll just scratch. Fucking annoying cunt. So he goes. He's either like that or he's asleep.

Really.

No, whatever.

As long as I'm not getting shagged.

On foot, on camera, then, yeah, that's what he's happening.

So. Yeah. What did you say? You said about pay? Yeah, you can. You can get paid really well. Top models get paid, you know, a ton. And you will get paid depending on how much experience you have and what type of model you are. And you can make a living off it, but once they're done with you, they're done with you. But I think, like, most industries are like that. My music is like that. I think music is probably 10 times worse than the modern industry. Like, I respect the modern industry in a way, because they can just be like, you've put too much weight on, we're dropping you. Or like, you're too old now and I'm like, you know what? Fair enough.

Because it feels more objective.

Yeah. And they can, they can be savage and be straight up about it, but the music industry is like they're going to keep you going around in circles and circles telling you you're okay or telling you to try this and keep your arm's length just to like see if you might do something, sign you and shelve you. Yeah, I think I'm probably a. A bad or biased person to talk about industries with anyway. In general, just because I'm super independent and I'm also just super like, I guess anti establishment in general. Like the way I just.

Yeah.

You know, so I'm always like fuck the man. You know, do it myself and my friends.

So. Yeah. Biased because I was paying you. I think what I say, I. The brand was like 900 pound day rate or something. It's pretty decent, I guess. Yeah. If you got the. And then the agency takes like what, 20, 30%?

Yeah, that's what they tell you they take. Yeah.

And probably more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll chop some off the top. Yeah, but it's, it's the game, bro. Like it's all the same. Music's the same. Like it's all a finesse and you're either like finessing or getting finessed. Yeah, yeah. Low key. Low key.

So when did. Well, I guess like were you doing modeling until in your mind music basically paid enough or more? Was that the way you thought about it? And even now, like do you do way less modeling now because music's getting bigger?

I.

Or is it just. Is it not that it's weird.

I never. So modeling was, as I said before, has always been a side thing, but it's always also been a thing where I'm like, I'd love to make money out of it because you have fun shoots and you meet fun people and it's also just network networking for music. Yeah, but I don't, I wouldn't say I do more now. I mean my price has gone up, which is good. So you know, bigger shoots, better money. But I think I just, I started to understand that all of this stuff is just linked, bro. Like got like two sets of PR right now who do like celebrity pr, who we just brought on and then music pr and I have my distributor who like links some other stuff up and I'm like, they all do the same things. Like if they get me a look in a magazine where I'm taking pictures, that's kind of modeling really, isn't it? Like, and if they get me some clothes from a brand I got to take a picture of, it's like that's also modeling in this music, you know, so I'm never not doing it and I'm always open to doing it. But I guess I'm just saying, like, I don't. I'm not spending my energy on trying to be a model ever.

Yeah.

And I'm not spending my energy on trying to entertain the music industry really either, you know, or the industry sides of things. Just making music, bro, and enjoying it.

Yeah. So like on that then, do you think, would you always be independent? Like if Universal came along tomorrow and said, let's fucking make a bit more commercial.

I'm not an idiot. So if someone gives me a meal, I'm taking.

Yeah. Where's the line?

I think, I think that I'm lucky now that I've, I've got to a point where, and I can only say this really in the last couple weeks. Well, I. Since the album and before the album. But I got to a point where things are now like non negotiably going well, like, yeah, you can't, I can't be spoken to about numbers or this or that or that or selling tickets. Whereas for the whole of my career before, of course, people could have said things and obviously there's loads of, loads of ways, ways to go. But I just think now it's like, oh yeah, there's this thing, it definitely works. So it's like if I get behind it or not. And I've spoken to my, my boys, my managers, David and Ben, who also run Cloudx, which is a label that I'm signed to.

Yeah, I saw that. Instagram. Yeah, I was wondering.

It's like, it's an independent label and everyone's like, oh yeah, you know, signed to a label and stuff. It's like the label of my two best friends that, who started it so they could distribute my records legally. You know, I mean, it's like you have to go through these things, but it's not, we're not funded by anyone apart from them two boys.

Yeah, I was gonna say. So how does that work then? I guess you kind of answered it like, like Spotify stuff, like just music, like music money in general. Does that just go basically to the three of you? Yeah, so I have a label. They would take like loads of it.

Yeah, kind of. So basically if you sign basically a major deal with a label, they're going to give you an advance, say that you sign a five album Record deal, which is a massive deal, give you an advance of a mil, which is cool. And they'll probably spend, let's say 3 to 4 mil on your, on your whole campaign for the next five albums, which is not a lot actually. They'd probably spend so much more. You're not going to see any of that money off any of the streams or anything more like likely, if it's a big deal like that, if it's a 360 deal until you have paid off that money that the label have put in. So if you spend your mill, you're finished, really, unless you've carved out some bit in your deal where you can earn money off merch or something like that. And with me, the deal I have is that I have a distribution deal with Empire, who work closely with me and Cloudex. I've known them for like so many years now and they're like my boys too, their friends, bit older than me, but we're all cool. And so my Cloudx label distributions go out through Empire and basically Empire put some money up for marketing as well as Cloudex. Cloudex's money comes from just my boys doing what they're doing. I don't ask them where their money comes from. It's nothing to do with me. And instead of taking, you know, getting a milli advance, you take less. So that the point is you can earn off your streams sooner. So as soon as you start paying off your streams, which I'm about to do, it means like that money's just in your bank. I can just sleep and it's, yeah, rolling over, you know. But I wouldn't say the independent grand is for everyone. I think it suits me because I like creative control and that's one of the main reasons why I wouldn't sign to a label and never have. I've been into labels before who've told me to make grime. I'm pulling up into a label with a, like being a singer and a guitar and they're talking about making grime and stuff. It's like, doesn't make sense. Talking about me being Chris Brown and stuff, want me to dance and I'm like, it's not me. So, yeah, that's why I wouldn't. But like I said, like at the beginning, I would now sign for a mill because even my, my manager said it's like not signing for a meal is ridiculous. Because if you can get a meal of someone and they can say, go and spend it, me and my two boys, we could spend that and add six months through the roof, you know what I mean? Like, we can do so much with that. So I think anyone is. Yeah, anyone is kind of silly not to take that amount of money if you know what to do with it.

Yeah. So on that then, like, where does marketing budget from? Labels and if you had to do yourself, say with that meal, where would you spend it? Because obviously, like, you've obviously built up an organic following, like a big one. So at that point, is it like Facebook ads for like ecom brands or like Instagram stuff? YouTube, what is it?

It depends what type of artists you are. You kind of have to figure out what your fan base are like and who they are, where they are and like what they want as well as like how your music is best received. So, you know, I have a friend who is quite like, he's kind of like an Internet kid type vibe. You know, he's super like into social media and marketing and he's like really funny and like kind of quirky online. And he's like. I don't know how to describe him, but you know, I mean like, yeah, Internet kid, for him it's like I'm rinsing TikTok ads and Facebook ads and that's what he does. Amazingly, his TikTok is amazing because that is completely his pocket. But for me, especially my music being like, kind of serious and like emotional, you know, I mean like, I can't really turn it into cocaine.

And girls on TikTok exactly, like just.

Get taken down ASAP. But there are ways to like, you know, meme it. But like, I wouldn't use a meme campaign as a central thing. Like what we always speak about doing is actually doing things in real life also because they're things that excite me. Like certain campaigns that are like, you know, I'll just get massive billboards or whatever and like go and physically stick them up places myself illegally, you know what I mean? And then get loads of pictures taken of them and everyone's like, oh, you know, create commotion through the news or whatever. Or I'd put a lot of spend behind my YouTube videos personally because my YouTube videos do quite well. Or you know, spend a lot behind merch and then do things. You know, there's so many different things, but you really have to figure out what your. What your fan base is.

Yeah, TikTok's mad. Actually. I started posting clips from this shitty little podcast on Tick Tock. Yeah, was getting like 300 views. Then one of them got near 200k views yesterday. It's just randomly.

TikTok is so weird.

I don't say loads, but, like, relative.

Yeah. You can have like, it's that algorithm. Four videos on 10 plays and then one will just hit a mill.

Like, Instagram does not do that.

Instagram's going down as well, bro. Yeah, I've been trying to get into TikTok, but I've. I've always found it hard for what I do because I always see it as like, kind of like a bit gimmicky for me, but everyone around me is trying to tell me that I'm tripping. They're like, nah, you're bugging. Like, you just need to get on TikTok. So I've started kind of properly. Getting into.

It's probably a way to do it. It's like relevant, but doesn't fuck your brand.

Yeah. Yes. It's so true. I think I'm super, like, cautious about my brand as well.

Yeah.

Just because I've been like, trying to get turned into so many different things before that. The idea of, like, you know, I mean, coming across as, like, I don't know, some weirdo stresses.

Yeah, yeah.

Trust me, trust me.

On the money side, then on the flip side, where does most the money come from in music? And. Well, I guess, yeah, where does most money come from, revenue wise? And then secondly, like, I suppose what's the most profitable part of it?

Well, I always say, and all my friends always say, like, if you're getting into music to make money, don't.

Because that's what the previous scam. Yeah, he was definitely a lot smaller than you, but he said the same shit.

Yeah, don't. That's not. It's not a quick flip. Like, I know bear rappers who are like, yeah, man, I'm trying to get this music money. Like, why? Why, bro? Like, so many better ways to make money. Even my. My manager says all the time, because he's super smart, bro. He got like. He like grew up rough, rough, but got like 100 scholarship to go to a private school. He's like insanely smart. And we always joke about it because he's just like, I could just be like in finance, bro, and just making bare bread, but I'm here, like grinding my ass off for, like, pennies. But just because it's like lifestyle stuff, right? And this is what you choose. You know, we get to work with our friends, but music money is not a thing. Most artists don't make money off streams at all nowadays. A lot of artists are because there's different ways to become independent. There are different things like this thing called United Masters, which I've seen before, and like, stuff like that, where it allows artists to basically be their own label. Because you can do that with the Internet now. Right. But really, like, artists make their money with brand deals and.

Yeah.

Modeling stuff and fashion stuff, like. And merch. Like, I can't remember what the figures are, but Travis Scott makes so much money off his merch. Or made so much money off his merch.

Yeah.

But until you get up to his level anyway, you're not really making money off streaming because the chances are you've taken a fat deal or someone has put, you know, 500k into your marketing. So you might be getting 20 racks a month or Spotify, but you gotta wait, you know, I mean, until that shit pays off.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is, actually.

Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was.

Yeah, it's like the old ep od. EP merch.

Yeah, that's pretty sick, actually.

I got Bluepool and Red Foot.

Is that just on your website?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just making some new one. I'll bring you on next time I see. I'll just bring you one actually. It's like 10 minutes around the corner.

Yeah, it's cool. I like that. Yeah, I guess. Right? Change the subject a little bit. What's like the maddest shit you've seen in. In the music industry? Or is that just. Or is it like a myth? I mean, I don't know, like, have you. I mean, even just listen to one of your songs earlier?

What? When you say mad, what do you mean?

Like, fucking? I don't know. I like parties with Travis Scott and shit. Or is it just like, does it completely depend what circles you're in?

Well, also, like, I'm not. I personally don't get, like, surprised by much, you know, so I've been in parties in LA and seen a lot of things, but nothing surprises me. I'm like, it's Hollywood, you know, I mean, this is what people do, even in parties here. And like private members clubs, like, people. People go wild. But, like, yeah, I haven't. Maybe I'm just so accustomed to it in it. But there's nothing in my head where I'm like, wow, like, that was really crazy.

I guess I'm way to put the question then. Was there. I don't know, is there been a moment where you thought, like, this music thing starting to fucking blow up? Is there like a pivot or is it been More gradual?

Yeah, I think it's been super gradual for me if I'm honest. As I said like even to you before when I, when I first came in, like I've never personally really felt proud of shit ever. Just because I always feel like, you know, cool 100 plays is cool. Thousand next time. Thousand plays is cool. What's 10,000, you know. And hitting a meal monthly listeners was nice just because it was like a fat middle finger to everyone who doubted me and my boys like off doing it independently. So I think that's probably the like the best or the most exciting milestone I've had. As I said before because it's just like non negotiable but really like I'm not, yeah, I'm not excited because I'm not done. Like I just feel like there's, there's so much to do even for this album I just released. It's like we, we made three great videos and that's all cool but like I want five videos and I want like three more music videos and I want, you know, I mean to be able to do so much more. Like I want to be able to make films and stuff and make my own fashion line. So it's cool. But it's a. Yeah, it's a slow, slow grind and slow process, you know.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And on like music videos and shit then is that way easier if you were to get in bed with a big label or is it still like, you can still do everything to the same level even in terms of like production and shit? I mean, I'm not a producer but like is there anything that you think, oh well, maybe I should work with a big label and have you been approached by big labels?

I have been approached by big labels before but they've, I've never been given a good deal, which is also why I've never signed to a label. Most of the approaching also happened before things started going well. Well, not well, but like they were fine. It was cool. It was like, yeah, if I was a label I'd probably sign it because, you know, this did a million by itself or whatever. But you know, as things got better and me and the boys started pushing Cloud X More, it was like, this is our thing, this is our label and this is us. Like you can approach us if you want but clearly we're on our own trajectory, you know, and we throw loads of parties and loads of people come and like kind of turn it into a whole world, you know, so now it's like kind of label for what? But yeah, I think music videos are a tough one, man. I've. I think the max I've ever spent on a music video is three grand, which is chips, which is absolutely nothing. But my. The. My music video on the most views, which is, I think on the eight miles. I spent £400 on it. Yeah. It was at my ex girlfriend. Yeah.

Yeah.

Literally messaged my ex girlfriend like, pie. This is really weird, but can I use your house for a music video? And just all got Ubers to like. Sorry. While I had a girl as well. So I had to like, explain to my girl. I was like, babes.

Oh, yeah.

I was like, I haven't got a label right now. Like, you need to understand, I have to do what I have to do.

Is it nice house? Yeah, yeah, I've seen the video.

Yeah, yeah. Fucking huge. The video wasn't. The video is whatever. But I think we learned to be super creative on no budget. Like, I dropped a song called Sleepless Nights recently, Right. Just before my album, which came out like last couple weeks ago, I think.

Yeah.

And the song was made by my manager because he writes songs and stuff and he was like, ah, I had Covid when I sung it. I think you'd sound cool on it. So I sung it, got it mixed and mastered by my friend in LA who I met when I was 18, who does all my stuff, Connor G. And shot the video as soon as we come out of lockdown for £200 at a phone box. And it looks like a major label video. And that's why I'm like, I have so many iPhones that people are these days.

Cinema mode.

That's what I mean, bro. And labels are spending 50k on videos.

Yeah.

And then buying their views because they don't do well. Because they didn't.

Yeah.

Their artists didn't.

There's a lesson there for sure.

You know what I mean? They didn't build their fan base. I'm like, bro, the groundwork is so key and, like, getting creative. And like, what we did was just make friends. I had to go to all the parties and, like, meet everyone and had to do all the time DMing people who didn't reply to me.

Yeah.

And now they're DMing me back. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Facts.

But there's still a way to go, man. I still get added my DMs. 24 7.

Yeah, same. Trying to get fucking guests for this podcast.

I just stopped DMing. I'm like, wow, it's going to come Something's going to come.

Yeah, very true. So the whole independent thing, then, like. And I said, you never had like a cosign or a big feature, do you think, to get to like, I guess, the next level or where you see things going, you know, Fucking Drake came along and said, obviously. But yeah, is that like, is there people you want to feature with or is it more just if they're like that big, you'd have to, I guess. Are you only doing it yourself to, like, prove a point or because you just haven't met, you know, opportunity yet?

I guess I'm doing it myself because it's the only way I know to do it. Really.

Yeah.

And also because I haven't really had opportunities where people gave me shit ever. Like, I've never been offered big money by labels like that. I've never got all the photo shoots, so. Got all of this even when was undeniable, even when I was doing, you know, a mill without anyone putting me on the playlist. You know, I took me three years, four years to get on the playlist and I'd already done millions of streams. I was like, doesn't make no sense at all. But on the other side, I love. I do want to collaborate and I love collaboration. And, you know, a cosign is. I do think everyone needs a cosign at some point. So a cosign is something that I would obviously welcome with open arms. So I wouldn't be like, no, sorry, Drake, don't put me on your story, please, because I want to be independent, but I think everyone needs something to, like, take them to that next level. And if it's not a million pounds, then it's got to be like some type of cosign or some type of moment. That's really what it is. Whether it's like, you have this super crazy idea for a video and you're going to do this and that's going to be the one that's going to, like, go viral or whatever. I actually have one of those, but I can't talk about it because don't want someone to steal it.

Coming soon.

Yeah, I have a super video, a cool video idea, though, that Hypnot's gonna be a really a thing.

Yeah, sick. Right, I want to switch the subject to get back in after the usual piss and wine break. I don't know if you can speak about this, but you mentioned you've had a girlfriend for three and a half years. Like, does it bother her that you're getting more attention? Because, well, I guess that's kind of the opening question but like obviously there must be more, there's more attention in every respect, like professionally and as a result, personally I think it's hard. Has that affected anything? Because obviously you like three and a half year relationship.

Yeah.

At your age is fucking long.

Yeah.

Unless I'm just shitter relationships.

No, it's fucking long and we have broken up, you know, so it's hard. It's super hard. I think it's hard on both sides as well. You know, something we talk about a lot. I can just imagine having a partner who's in the limelight to, to any respect, you know, I mean low level or high level like that they all bring different issues is super hard to get used to because I guess it's not quote unquote normal. Right. But I think it's something that you have to work out with your partner, like whether they're, whether they're able to accept certain things. And in where you draw lines on boundaries. I always think it's super like normal, you know, we always speak about it and I'm like, to me it's normal to have to talk about these things regardless of my job. Like it doesn't matter if I have to shoot a video of girls in it or it doesn't matter if I have to go on tour. Like people just have different lives and like we could both be with someone completely different and there'd always be challenges in our relationship, you know. So I always try and be like, let's not make it about me being in music, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Let's try and look at it for what it is.

Is she in the industry or.

No, she works in like kind of like branding, advertising stuff. So not really music stuff, but there's crossover there. Loads.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you think you could be on the flip side? Could you be with someone that was also like famous musician?

I'll tell you what, I couldn't be with an actor because I can't be with anyone who has to have any sex scenes going on, man.

That's what I mean.

I get super jealous, bro. So I get mad jealous and possess. But I think I could. I mean, I get why celebrities go out with other celebrities because they understand each other's lifestyle. Like there's certain questions you don't have to ask. But they, those relationships also pose their own problems in the same way. So man, I'm always like, I could, I could do whatever. I'm so chilled, bro. I could like yeah, do whatever. Don't my government see. I mean, I could be with this girl. Like this girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's actually funny. I won't say their name. They won't mind me saying this. I don't remember them that well, but a friend. Well, like a friend of a friend kind of a friend. I don't know him that well, but we see about this the other night with my friend, about his friend, who's kind of my friend, but his girlfriend has literally gone from being unknown to having, like, 5 million Instagram followers because she's a main character on a Netflix series.

Oh, shit.

If anyone's watching, maybe they can work this out.

Short amount of time as well.

Yeah, Like a year.

Yeah.

Like, new season comes out. I think she was like. She wasn't like, no one. She'd made about 100k and she went 100k to 5 mil. And he, like, has, like, completely normal job, like, fucking unknown. Like, you know, private Instagram account. And he was saying this is, like, an anecdote of what he said. So it's not an exact quote, but people like Ben Chilwell fucking sliding into her DMs.

Yeah.

And, like, I'm sure it's not just him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she's, like, presumably, like, a millionaire now and her boyfriend's not. And, like, apparently they've just broken up, but fucking hell, that must have been a death. I imagine myself in his shoes and think, Jesus, like, that's pretty difficult.

Yeah. For real.

Especially because it's, like, she's fucking making it, like, financially as well. And he's, like, left behind doing normal shit. But I think they were together, like. Or they knew each other long before she had.

Yeah.

Any of that shit.

Yeah.

But it's just interesting because that's, like, the only, like, example of that that I've personally ever heard of in, like, my network.

It's. It's fucking hard also. It's like, in my instance, it's harder for my girl, of course, like, in different ways, but I think it is, you know, because it's a lot to deal with. Like, you know, this person you're with and your best friend as well becomes this thing, which almost becomes, like, bigger than. Not bigger than your relationship. But all of a sudden, they're like, a thing to the world, you know? Like, I get it where I get DMs from certain crazy fans daily three times a day.

Yeah.

Who are, like, calling me daddy and shit. Like, 24 7. And I'm like, I'm not even. People don't even know who I am. So I can't imagine how crazy it is when you're. When people are really popping, you know, and how hard it must be for someone's partner to see that. And, you know, everyone, everyone deals with their own things, like, so it'd be super crazy to see. But at the same time, I'm. I'm always. And I don't know if I'm in a position of privilege to be in, you know, be the one in the. In a relationship who's like the music one or whatever, but I'm always just like, we're kind of just dealt with the hands we. We get, really. And anyone could be with anyone. I'm always like, you know, my girl could be with Vin Diesel or she could be. If the guy works in corner shop, like, whatever is cool. And I could be with whoever. And there are so many issues that you're gonna have in every relationship, regardless of who they are, what they do and how much money they make. And you just have to take it as it comes. Which is why I always try and see everything as like, you know, a day to day thing. You know, it's like, yeah, we can talk about music and this and how hard this is, but it's like, are we good or not?

Yeah.

Because all that other stuff comes second.

Yeah, very true. And the dms. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like you're saying, I've often thought this, like, how many DMS would Drake get in a day? Like a hundred thousand.

Yes. At least, at least. At least I get bad day and I haven't even got that many followers, like, comparatively, you know.

Yeah. I started getting DMS about his podcast with 15 year old boys. Not sexual ones, but come on. Well, I don't. Yeah, I've. You've sent me six bottles. It's not this wine, actually. I think I finished it. He sent me six bottles of red wine from Italy because he watched like two podcasts. I was like, fuck, imagine the shit Logan Paul's getting or whatever.

Yeah.

Do you think being in a relationship makes it harder to write, like emotional music?

I never struggled.

That's what I mean. Yeah, I've never struggled because I. I kind of joked to myself, like, oh, I just had a breakup. Maybe I should write a fucking album. It's like the perfect time for like a creative outlet.

Yeah. I definitely think everyone knows that if you break up the, the thing you release after anything creatively, video album, it's gonna be fire. Like, I mean, Everyone knows it's gonna be fire, so you should do that. Should get that freestyles. Those freestyles go. No, I've never. I've never had a problem with it. I think just because I've been single most of my life, and I've always written emotional shit. I think just because. Kind of emotional dude now not even a cry emotional dude. Just, like, I think a lot about, like, relationships. Like, my relationship, myself, my relationship with the world, you know, all the issues in the world. I don't know if it's because of my star sign. That's what people tell me, even though I'm not very. Not into that stuff a lot. But I'm just very, like. Yeah. I'm a very active thinker about emotional things, so I've always been super in touch with my emotions, and I've always been able to articulate them. So when it comes to storytelling and songwriting, I can always write kind of regardless of what I'm going through, and always write about anything, really. I could write a song about, you know, falling in love with someone and. Or falling out of love with someone and, like, you know, having sex with a stripper or, like, missing someone because they cheated on me with my best friend. It's like, I haven't been through it, but, you know, I can write about it.

Yeah, true.

On the flip side, most things I've put out, I've definitely. Most definitely been through, like.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very much so.

Yeah. Some pretty colorful lyrics, to be fair.

Yeah, yeah. Lyrics are my favorite thing, man. Lyrics are easily my favorite thing.

Yeah, definitely. And coming on to the whole. I feel this is very controversial one, but, like, the whole, I guess, like, rock star image.

Mm.

Do you think, like, you know, drug strippers, whatever it is, is that, like. Do you think that. Is that, like, an authentic thing or is that, like.

For who? For me?

Well, I get. Well, I guess in general. Yeah, I guess. For you. Or is it like building the. Building the brand of Santino that isn't necessarily you. It's like your music brand.

I.

That's like two interesting two part thing again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being a rock star is. Is kind of a corny thing to say nowadays, isn't it?

Because that's what it is.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of. But a lot of rappers have adopted. Adopted this rock star life of things, which is them, like, being really loud and having crazy shows.

Yeah.

Which is cool, but, like, for me also, being a rock star is being able to actually shred your instrument and be amazing musically at Your thing and going crazy and that partying, let's just say it's not fake. I party a lot and I go out a lot and I love to drink and have a good time.

Yo fellas, quick one. You may or may not have noticed there's been a bit of merch, so to speak, in recent episodes. We've got two different things.

We've got some of the retro style.

OG neon beach posters that designed like four years ago you may have seen on my Instagram. And then we've got some of the best selling OG viral style neon sign that basically did start that entire craze about two years ago now. So yeah, if you want to add something to your home, office, your living room, just anywhere sick basically that you want to add that extra thing to and support the channel, then you can check that out. Link is in the bio Midnight Co shop and yeah, just an aesthetic item to complement the process, I suppose. Cheers for watching and enjoy the rest of the pod.

But I'm not like an asshole and I'm not ignorant. A lot of people love to relate this rock star thing to like someone smashing up a hotel or like, yeah, you know, passing out drunk and peeing on or something. I'm not, I'm not a. You know, I mean like, I have respect and I'm classy but like, I go out a lot. I love to party and I love to like live by my own rules and like say you to everyone or like you to like, you know, the man or whatever. Yeah, but like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not a dickhead. And a lot of people say. Say that when they meet me as well, that they're like, oh, I thought you were like gonna be a bit more like of an or whatever. And it's like just a normal dude. Like it's rude for me to like turn up and like not to speak to someone or not look someone in the face when I'm talking to them or some. You know what I mean? It's like you're not a rock star if you do that. You're just a. Like there's a very big difference.

Yeah, interesting.

But I also think it is something I've wanted to push more in my music because it's how I feel and who I am, you know, I'm very like, I do whatever, whenever, however I want to do it. I go out whenever. I don't care if it's Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday, like pull up to wherever. But because I have a kind of soft voice, R B Voice. It's really easy to just, like, you know, I mean, put me a nap. Which is why I, like most of my new stuff, is that I'm really trying to push loads of loud guitars and all that stuff because that's what I grew up on. I started playing guitar before I started singing, really. So. Yeah, true.

I still got my guitar here. I played the other day, and I had fucking calluses. I literally forgotten how to do it. So the motor neurons in my brain, I'm just like. I literally haven't played for, like, three years.

Okay. @.

All. Yeah, like, at.

All. It's one of them ones you have to, like, every couple of weeks at least to keep, you.

Know. Yeah. Legit. I mean, it's like anything like fucking work, business, sports, like, do it for three years. Like, it's there, but you have to, like, get the shit.

Going. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's very much just fucking bit of fun now and then, but it was when I broke up my girlfriend, I was like, fuck, we'll get the guitar up, start serenading, like, the air, and get, like, crying about it. Do you think I put someone Twitter a few days ago? Actually, I discovered Twitter, like, six months ago. Yeah, get some more. And it was like, my opinion is alcohol brings out. Yeah.

Cheers. Speaking of.

It. Yeah, well, speaking of it, particularly red wine, in my opinion. I was basically saying that if I was completely. Because I've toyed with the idea of trying to go, like, completely sober for, like, six months, and maybe I'm just fucking, I don't know, not committed enough. But I feel like elements of, like, partying and drinking, like, wine make you. Well, not make you more creative, but bring out, like, a depth, particularly, like, music rather than maybe, I don't know, fucking graphic design. We maybe just focus a bit.

More. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I.

Think. You think that helps.

You? Yeah, I think it's harder to do anything where you have to look at screens. So, like, for example, when I'm producing, if I'm waived in any way, I'm like, this is long. I'm gonna give up. But as far as writing, and I think not even, like, the practical side of the thing, I think creatively thinking and, like, doing things that provoke thought and stuff, it definitely. There's definitely a link. But a lot of people are always like, yeah, I smoke weed to be creative. And I'm like, you don't, bro. Because 50 of the time you're gonna fall asleep or watch a movie. Yeah, 50 of the time you're gonna write something, you know what I mean? And it's like, it might help you a bit. And I know a lot of people who like, you know, do smoke all the time and it helps them. Right. But I'm like, I think there is exceptions. And I think generally, I wouldn't say specifically weed is like this magical thing that helps people to be creative, but I definitely do. And I don't know what the link is, but I definitely do find inspiration in like partying and drinking and like, being out or.

Like.

Yeah. Whether it's wine drunk or like whiskey drunk.

And. Yeah, they're very.

Different. Yeah. A lot of the time whiskey's like, me and my boys, we have a little whiskey, like, sit down, have intellectual conversation. Wine is like my girls around, we have a little. Some wine, red.

Wine. I start playing the 1975 and like, getting sad about my 2011.

Girlfriend. Trust me, you get sad about some crazy shit sometimes. I remember that.

Time. Yeah.

Legit. But I definitely do think there is some. There's a tie there. I mean, of course I do as well. I'm. I party a lot, as I said, I get drunk a lot and I write a lot when I'm drunk and about being drunk and about partying, you know, so it's definitely a theme in my. In my music, but not in a way which is like, you know, party, party, party 24 7. Yeah, it's more like, you know, the after generous. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I do think there is. I'm not sure what it is, but there definitely.

Is. Yeah. Because like we were saying before off camera about a certain controversial topic. I feel like my experience of people is like, genuinely like the creatives and entrepreneurs and whatever, like forward thinkers, you know, whatever you want to call it. I feel like there's a pattern where generally the best ones or the most creative ones do similar in that respect. Like, they, like, do really good work, whether that's music building, a business, whatever. But then they love the.

Session. Like, yeah.

Yeah. I've really seen a pattern in.

That. Like, yes, so.

True. I could think of like, certain examples and like, some are just into drinks, some love to do drugs really hard. But, like, it doesn't. It clearly doesn't negatively affect their ability. Like, in a way, I feel like it probably brings it out almost more. And then you obviously get obviously the other side of that where there's probably like a bloody alcohol problem in, like British.

Society.

Yeah. I mean, they're people that aren't putting that energy or that potential inspiration.

Towards yeah, it's so.

True. I don't know, it's just an.

Observation. Yeah. I mean, definitely. There's a. There's an alcohol and drug problem in the uk. Firstly. Like, you know, we binge drink and we're one of the only countries in the world.

Obviously.

Yeah. Around Europe as well. There are a lot of people who do it. But, like, we binge drink from an early age. Like Americans are drinking, like, you know, whatever, wine coolers or something like that. Yeah. Age 90. Yeah. Age 19. 20. It's like I was 16. Like Cane in vodka, like from.

Early. Yeah, it's quite mad.

Actually. But, yeah, it's so true. But I do think that a lot of people who have really active minds and it tends to be creative people and creative thinkers and I don't even just mean like artists and graphic designers. I mean, anyone who kind of has like a. Like an entrepreneurial mind who has to like, think for themselves and like create opportunities themselves, tend to have minds that race 247 and want to have a break from that. And I do think that whether it's some people do drugs or some people drink or whatever, it's like that is their escape from their mind racing 247 with whatever it is. Obviously it's hard one, because it's super easy to become dependent on these things and on some things more than others. Which is. Which is why, you know, you see how many musicians specifically have died of overdoses, bro, at 27. Like Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse, like Whitney Houston died of juice at 21, bro. Little peep. Yeah, it's like there's. There's something there which I think people have touched on and spoken about and I find it super interesting. But I wonder. Yeah, I wonder what it is. I think also creative minds are like tormented souls in a way, you know, Like, I think I feel that, you know, I mean, there's something inside a lot of creative people I know, and I know myself personally as well, that, like, you're just dark souls, you know, and old souls. And I think that's also what makes what you do in your day to day life and how you think so amazing. But also there's a reason you're drawn to these, you know, forms of escaping that.

Shit. Yeah. On the whole, like drugs and like rappers particularly, I feel like that that's such like cultural thing, like juice world, whatever. Obviously one big example is plenty of others, ones that are alive and dead, sadly. Do you think that is like an image thing? Almost like the more controversial they can be like, look at some, like, Trippy Red. Like, I fucking love his music, but, like, the face tats gonna look good when he's.

40.

Yeah. I don't know. Like. Well, that's kind of a different issue, but like. Yeah, you feel like he made those decisions when he was fucking on.

Something. Yeah. Trippy's hard.

Though.

Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. I think they go hand in hand, don't they? It's like the first artists would. Would start to use drugs because maybe they have demons or it makes. Maybe it helps them get something out of them. You know, Ray Charles or Jimi Hendrix writing crazy albums and songs on these things back in the day. All of a sudden we treasure those artists as like the best artists, kind of not of all time, but like, you know, of certain generations. People look up to them and also understand they have substance abuse.

Problems.

Yeah. It then becomes cool to do that, to be like them. And we get. We get down to here where it's like, you know, now in 2021, where it's like, yeah, I can't really tell if you're doing Xanax to be.

Cool or like his little Zan said.

So. Yes. I don't really know, but like, they. They all kind of merge into one thing, you know, I mean, it's really hard to like, hard to like, distinguish, but Zans specifically sounds are.

Bad. Yeah. I've actually never.

Tried. Yeah. I know some friends who like, lost their. Lost their lives of Sans. Like, friends and friends of. Of people as well. Like random stuff, like coming up, coming home from, like, a night out of doing whatever, and then popping his hand to go to bed and just like, not waking up.

And.

Yeah. Bad.

Yeah. Have you ever, ever dabbled in psychedelics in a legal fashion? Of.

Course. Legal places I haven't, but I've always wanted to.

And. Yeah, I have a few times. I'm fascinated by it because of this new business I'm working.

On. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is basically like, in the short term is an imitation of a microdose in a supplement form. That's like. That's the.

Concept. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But then like, psilocybin and shit. I've been reading so much about it, I think, you know, like, the mental health studies that are going on now, like, decriminalizing it, de. Stigmatizing it. I feel like it's the next.

Cbd. Yeah, I completely agree, but I've.

Never got on with like, weed really was in the experiences I've had in legal countries with psychedelics. Which not that many. I haven't done fucking IRS or anything, but I just mushrooms and shit. It's way more. I don't know, I just felt like, super.

Creative. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It's like pretty profound.

Shit. Everyone always tells me, like, they can't believe I haven't done, like, weed. And I said and stuff. They're like, you, like, you're that, you.

Know.

Yeah. See me as. Yeah, like a career, whatever. I think I used to smoke a lot of weed. Like, so much. Like, I can't even tell you how much. Like, loads. And I stopped about three years ago and I. Looking back on it, I don't think weed was as productive as I thought it was. As like we kind of spoke about.

Earlier. I feel like it slows you down. Yeah.

Maybe.

Yeah. Speeds or.

Heinz. Also, my relationship changed with it. Like, I've smoked since. I've stopped once or twice. Like, had some hash in, like, Morocco, whatever. And I was like, wow, this is. This is great. And I said, oh, yeah, because I'm not. It's not, you know, London, whatever, whatever. But I find really weird one. But I. I've always had a really positive outlook on psychedelics. And the only reason I haven't done them is because the only times I've been offered them properly is when I was too high because I used.

To smoke and I was like, not a good combination.

Yeah. I was like, no, now it's not. I want to be pure and, like, clean if I do that. Do that shit. But, yeah. Yeah, I really. I really raped psychedelics. I've never dived into it, but I've dived into, like, YouTube videos and research and.

Stuff. But, yeah, I feel like people like Jimi Hendrix, certainly like the fucking Beatles back in the day. That was obviously, like, 60s.

70S.

Yeah. When there was that, like, psychedelic renaissance. I sound like I know what I'm talking about now, but I don't. But then it's. Yeah, it's just mad. So many conspiracy theories. We did actually speak about this a few episodes ago, which will have come out when this comes out. But, yeah, probably get, like, Shadow banned this video because of speaking about that sort of.

Stuff. Nah, man. Will be.

Good. Something I was thinking about as well. This is, like, fairly controversial and pretty open, but that's the premise of this podcast. So, like, obviously, like, antidepressants, and I'll explain why I'm saying this, are, like, super common and I think they massively help a lot of people. I've been on them when I was like, 19 and came often because I felt like it. Just because I've always been quite up and down. I feel like probably like borderline bipolar and whatever. I've just kind of dealt with it. But I took these for a few months and I just felt like a robot. Like, suddenly there was like no emotion. I was like, fuck this. I know sex drive, by the way. In my experience, which is part of the reason I came off.

Them.

Yeah. But I was speaking like a therapist the other week and they were like, oh, maybe you should try the antidepressants. I was like, fuck, no. Because, like, I don't know, like. And I spoke to like, my ex girlfriend was fucking on them and plenty of other people probably shouldn't have said her. But like, someone. And like, people have told me, like, yeah, I don't want to feel.

Anything.

Yeah. And I'm like, fuck. Like, how could you? I don't know, like, in my mind, my best, like, moments of inspiration. Whether it's like, literally in a day, I'll decide this is the new business. I'm don't know, maybe quite sporadically or like, design that fucking post or some.

Shit. You do.

That? Yeah. Like four years ago. But like, yeah, I don't know those moments to me, like, I don't know. I don't know if you've experienced anything similar, but I would rather be like, I feel like creatives. What I'm saying is I feel like creatives are genuinely quite up and.

Down.

Yeah. I'd rather be that in my experience than probably properly, like.

Flatlined. I completely agree. And I personally have, like. It's not that I have a problem with like, antidepressants. I think it's such a huge conversation to have, but I think I have a problem with the. The world being. Or like whoever it is, pharmaceutical companies, but being so quick to offer someone antidepressants because they feel a certain type of way. Because it does numb you out, bro. Like, it does robot you that. I know so many people who have been on antidepressants and it just flatlines you. There's.

No.

Exactly. It removes the ups and the downs. But I think what we should learn to do as that humanity, which is obviously a huge ask, but it's like, we need to learn to understand that fundamentally people are different. Like, people get super anxious, people get super depressed, and people get super bipolar more so than others. And it doesn't mean that you should try and tame them to fit this, like, this state, which is going to be more useful for everybody in the World, it's like, no, we need to understand that, like, individuals are different. And also those things that may torment some people which they need help to understand through therapy or through friendship or through anything, are also the things that make them who they are and also make them great. Like, which is why loads of, loads of the, the greatest people in the world have all had quote, unquote, mental health issues. I say quote, unquote because I'm all, I'm. I never want to be that guy. To label someone as mental health someone to have mental health issues as soon as they feel away. And that's why I also think it's super hard and in the world we live in now, because it's like, I'm split. It's like, yeah, everyone, everyone seems to have a lot of like, or some type of mental health issues. And I'm like, personally, I'm like, of course I do. Because how crazy is social media for us to, to understand? Yeah, it's looking at people's bodies 247 and you know what I mean? And like, of course it is. But I'm also like, I think there, I think there are just more wholesome ways for us as a community to, to try and learn to deal with them. You know, I'm not, I don't have all the answers, but I just think that medication is, you know, some people need medication, but I think people over prescribe that stuff. And I think we need to try and figure out ways as a community to do things better for each other. Like, I know a lot of men who just don't speak to other men about how they feel. I do the. I do the exact same thing. I do the exact same thing. And I'm like, why not find a way? Or maybe someone should do this. You know, I'm speaking about it and I'm not doing it. So maybe I'm a hypocrite, but I'm like, why doesn't someone find a way to build a platform where. Or a way for men to feel more comfortable to speak to men, which is why I speak to all my boys all the time about stuff more openly. Or I'm trying to, like, no matter who I meet, if they have some issues, I'm like, let's talk about it. Because you feel stupid talking about it until you open up about it and realize that the person that was sitting next to you all night feels the exact same thing. And I would rather do that, you know what I mean? Than like, subscribe antidepressants to someone in A heartbeat. Because I'm like, you're limiting someone, bro. You're not. You're. You're dumbing them down, you know, but, you know, there's so many. So many points and counterpoints that can be had of.

This.

Yeah. I mean, it's just like, you know, I'm sure there are people looking at this like, oh, yeah, you know, I. I hate you. I don't believe you, and I don't agree with.

You. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I just thought, yeah, it's just, like, topical because I was speaking about it.

Recently. But, yeah, no, I can, bro. I.

Can. I just think it applies to, yeah, genuinely, like, creative.

People. And so I think, as I said, I think the main thing is, I think creative people are careful. People are tormented, bro. And it's not to. It's not to say that other people don't deal with things, but there's just a common. A common theme of creative people having demons. It's just a thing, you.

Know? Yeah.

Facts.

Yeah. And I feel like, yeah, a lot of people watching this probably relate to.

That. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And the saddest thing is that I don't have the answer of how they go away. You know, there are no answers. But I definitely think, as I said, speaking to people, man, speaking to people always changes things. And it's funny because I guess I'm a hypocrite, man. I don't speak to people about stuff ever. I don't speak to my girlfriend, don't speak to my family about stuff. My best friends, rarely. I'm starting to more now, but the other day I was at a party and someone was going through some stuff and I was drunk, so, you know, I was talking my shit, whatever, but I was like, wow, all these things you. You're telling me right now whilst you're upset, you know, because, you know, they had a little breakdown or whatever. I was like, you think no one else understands, but you're sitting in a room with four other people who have been through similar things, who are. Who are just not brave enough to say it at this moment, you know, and you now allowed us to say that and we all just spoke about it or went home feeling better. You might feel a bit embarrassed because you. But it's like sometimes you just want to know that there's someone else who feels similarly, you know, and that's like the one thing that keeps you going through.

It. Yeah, so true. That's basically why I put this, the first podcast out originally about all the business that went.

Wrong.

Yeah. I was like, fuck if I don't speak about this. It was like therapy for.

Me.

Yeah. But then I had legit like 400 messages off the back of that and it only had like 5k views. But like the message per view is.

Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And people are, oh fuck, I thought I was the only one. Like, oh, like, yeah. I think the problem is just a culture of highlight.

Real. Yeah, of.

Course. And then no one's speaking about like the real.

World. Trust me, in a world where we're meant to be so much more connected, we've never been so.

Disconnected. Yeah. Like Facebook's mission statement on matter is make the world more open and connected. Or realistically made the world more like closed and.

Disconnected.

Exactly. Some weird dystopia. The ultimate irony it is we're.

Living in our favorite dystopian film.

Loki. Yeah, it's fucked. Yeah, I started, I put a tweet out as well. I'm fucking self promoting myself. But I put this tweet out because I was like in my fields about my ex girlfriend like a week ago. I don't know what happened. I was fine for like three weeks and then I just drank too much up north the other weekend and I was like lost my shit happens and started listening to like fucking robbers by the 1975. And you know, you know the.

Drill.

Yeah. But yeah, I put this tweet out just being like same like whatever. Like the whole culture on social media, particularly.

Twitter.

Yeah. Is like, oh, I should be like a G and all this shit and not care. But that tweet went like viral and I was like, fuck. Because like people secretly fucking agree with it. So like I say viral but like like 150 thousand reaches. Yeah, I've got 400.

Followers. Yeah, nice. Twitter is a weird one for me because I just sometimes I like find it so funny because there's so much funny stuff on Twitter, you know, can make you laugh. But I'm also like seeing this many people's opinions sometimes is so unhealthy because you start to think that because the tweet went viral you have to agree with.

It.

Yeah. Facts. And also it's like a vocal minority of people have like basically got behind a. Got behind a tweet or emotion or an ideal and turned it into this thing. And I think it scares a lot of people into thinking that that's the only way to think. I don't want to get super specific because I don't make it mad political, but sometimes I do just look at Twitter and I'm like, all you who have liked that tweet, like, outside of stuff that's, like, funny or, like, you know, personal, like, political stuff, you think what they've said is bond, you think their word is bond, and you have to live by that stuff. And you think that's how the world thinks. And really, you don't understand that there's a minority of people on Twitter who, like, have cult followings about certain. Certain controversial topics and they've tricked you into thinking that's how the world works. And the reason I say that is because the amount of times I've seen something on Twitter or spoke to someone at a dinner party or something at a party, and everyone's like, oh, have you seen this thing going round about this? Or whatever, this is how everyone thinks at the moment. And there's 10 people in the room who all don't think like that. And I'm like, no, we've just seen.

It. That's what got pushed by the.

Algorithm. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just been pushed on Twitter and, like, that's not really how the people.

Think. Perception is.

Reality.

Exactly. Never more than on, like, social.

Media. Exactly.

Exactly. I'm the same with, like the news and shit. I mean, I don't want to get. Yeah, never do I. That's my point. Don't even get me started on.

That. No way I'll be at all now. What am I watching the news for? No.

Way. Yeah, there's just a lot of doom and gloom in there. Like, everything on the news and that gets pushed and like tabloids. I mean, whether it's certain disease or XYZ thing. And yeah, it probably doesn't. Like, there's probably a correlation between the amount of that and antidepressant antidepressants that being prescribed. Like.

That'S. That's what I was trying to get at earlier as well, about, like, social media and antidepressants. Like, of course there is, bro. Like, we. Dave Chappelle said it. He was one of my heroes, regardless of whether they tried to cancel him. He's like, I love Dave Chappelle so much, man. But he. He said it so clearly. How did he exactly say. I don't like paraphrasing, Man. I can't remember how he said it. I can't remember how he said it, though. He said it so perfectly. I actually can't remember it. Damn. Like, slipped my.

Head.

Yeah, I've gone blank. Literally gone blank. I'd like the thought of saying it. What did you say.

Again? Just about the fact that, like, these news platforms, media platforms are just like programmed negativity and it is obviously a.

Correlation.

Yeah. Between like, that and other.

Things.

Yeah. Whether it's subconsciously or.

Not. Yeah, yeah. No, I can't remember what he said, but basically it's. It's. There's no. There's no denying that. You know, people obviously see bad news 24 7. Ah. That's what he said. He said to this kid in the audience. He was like, talking about. I think maybe it was like, when 9, 11 happened or something. Or before social media. I can't remember if not. Yeah, but he was like, it was such a big thing or when things happened back in the day. It's like such a crazy thing. But nowadays for our generation, it's like that happens every day. Like, there's always a terrorist attack. There's always like. Like someone shot up a school because of, like, some terrible homophobia or, like, some racist attack. And how are we actually meant to. How are we meant to feel about that if we see it every week? It's like, how do you expect me to actually still feel emotionally connected to it? You can't. It's just. It's so oversaturated. It's like, oh, yeah, another. Another school shooting. Yeah, it's so bad. It's so bad. So, like, of course, you. You do that to our emotions and you. You start to desensitize the people like that. And then all of a sudden you wonder why people, like, have problems forming meaningful relationships because all their relationships have been through social media or, you know, things like that. So I can. Yeah. I don't get how more people can't see it. Sometimes I think these things and, like, watch videos on it and I'm like, of course. But. And then I guess people go on and, like, just get on with their lives.

Really. Yeah, it literally is like, the man, like, yeah. Often think it's just some bloke in a fucking, like, village by the sea. One dude pressing up this up, like. I don't know, he's like, above Trump and all.

These. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that exists, man. But, you know, let's not get into conspiracy.

Theory. Yeah, Legit. Bringing it back to music then. Yeah, briefly. Well, I guess this is kind of not conspiracy, but, like. Well, I'll start with the fucking funny conspiracy that my old flatmate who did way too many drugs, came up with. He was saying that, like, Justin Bieber is like a manufactured scam and all this stuff and like you see these videos on YouTube, like musicians, like, selling their soul. Like, yeah, I mean, obviously that's ridiculously extreme. But do you think, like, you have to meet certain people basically, like, can you get to the very top, like, you know, Bieber, Drake level, in your opinion, A like doing it by yourself, like, is it possible? I don't think so. Like, without rubbing shoulders with certain people and I guess elements of inverted commas. Selling your soul and like.

Selling. I don't think so. Everyone thinks selling your soul is this super devilish thing where you have to like, yeah, go do this ritual, you know what I mean? Like, people still think I'm like, oh, if you sign a, if you sign a 10 million pound record deal to make music you don't like for the rest of your life and they own your tv, they own your, like, publishing, they own everything, every right of your life, you've sold your soul. That is selling your soul essentially. Like, you've given up rights to exactly who you are to someone to manipulate for the rest of your life. Like, that is selling your soul. It's not about, you know what I mean, whether someone's got lizard eyes or MK Ultra or something, you know what I mean? That's not selling your soul, bro. But I think, yeah, there's the industry. Any industry really is about knowing people. Like, you have to be talented, you have to work hard and you have to be in the right place at the right time and you have to know people because if you don't know no one, then you can't do anything really. Like, it gets to a point where you need to be plugged into this and this person is friends with this and you have to make friends and it's just natural. So I don't think you can, you can get to that place without going through certain people. But I don't think people should look at it as this, like, it's like devilish thing or like this, this thing which really like, diminishes who you are as a person. It's like there are just certain gatekeepers in the industry. Like there are certain people who, you know, own certain labels and own certain spaces where it's like, yeah, of course, if you want to be able to get to do a Jimmy Fallon or like, whatever, it's like you gotta go through these people because they're the guys, they're the guys who bring people up. Like, I've met so many people in like LA specifically who've been like, oh yeah, I'm that guy that did this for Post Malone. I'm that guy that did this for Chris Brown. I'm like, I did this. If you need to do this, these are the people I need to link you up with. And it's. It's just a game, you know, I mean, it's like, sure, when the time's right. But I know I'm calling him and I'm like, I need you to do this for me. Like, I. I'm going through that stuff, but it doesn't take away the fact that, like, you know, I did it. We did it by ourselves, you know?

Yeah. Still have you.

Good? Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think it's possible. I sometimes think this about, like, footballers and shit and just like any other facet of life. Do you think it's possible, in a music sense to be so good, but you just didn't put, you know, you didn't put content out in the right place? Like, is it possible to be, like, the fucking best ever, but just not get picked.

Up? Because.

100%. 100% because I guess it's like the flip side, like survivorship bias or whatever, because. And because you hear about all the time, usually replace the pessimism. But, yeah, that's true. Do you think that that is.

Possible? I.

Do. I have.

A. Have a friend, more like my manager's friends, who we used to work with, who was a bit older than me, and he played, like, 15 instruments. Like, probably one of the craziest songwriters I've ever met and also made, like, some of the sickest music I've ever met. But he didn't have social media. I didn't really know how to use it. Like, I don't want to be too specific because it's actually like, you know, talk about him, but he was just on some other. But he was on that type of. Where, like, if he was an artist in the 60s, he would have been an.

Icon.

Yeah. Like, he would have been people we still talk about. But, yeah, nowadays you just have to do so much more. Like, being an artist is so different. That's why I think. I mean, speaking to my guys about it, I think the next projects I'm gonna make, because sometimes I come up with actually more time I come up with the concepts before I make the project and then dive into, like, what it means and, like, stories off the side of this central thing that it could be. And then I go into the studio with an idea of exactly what I want to write specifically, just because I kind of enjoy it. You know, spend like four months Watching film and stuff and getting references and.

Stuff.

Yeah. And I kind of want to make this, this next project about this thing called like the death of an Icon. And I haven't really dived into it too deeply yet, but I just think like being an icon in the same way you were back in the days is dead because you can't do it in the same way. You know, things are oversaturated and there's so many artists and like social media makes the game completely different. But yeah, there are so many people I know who like super talented but you know, they don't know how to use social media or they have really bad money management and you know many things, which is why you need a good team around you. But you also need to be able to like have a team you trust and one who can rely on you at the same time, you know, I mean they don't want to work with a degenerate really. And I find a lot of hard. I'm not gonna lie, bro, I find organization hard. I don't wake up early in the morning, I sleep really late. I make music really late. Like I'd go to the studio now, that's when I'd start working. But I'm lucky that I have a team around me who provide structure and organization and do the things that I'm really bad at. You know, sending emails, admin, reaching out to people, creating opportunities. Like I'm great in person, great to talk to people, great to meet people, great to make music. But apart from that, I find the other stuff hard. Like the, the. My favorite part of music in general is being in the studio, writing a song. It's not like doing the interviews or like performing. Like that's not my favorite part of it. My favorite part is talking to people and writing songs. That's it. So you need, you need a team around you. I think as an.

Artist. Yeah, for sure. And on the flip side, do you think, because I was speaking about this earlier, like those fucking island boys I've seen like borderline meme. But like do you think you can get somewhere like that? Like they're obviously gonna make fucking money and be famous for a while. Like 15 minutes so to speak. Just by being fucking excellent and market. Like I was saying, like who's behind those sort of like blow up rap.

Stars.

Same. It's not just them. Like someone's gotta fund.

That. Them meme rap stars though, confuse me. I don't know, it's like they. I'm sure they have a team behind Them, but I'm just like, I don't know what's going on with them sometimes. Yeah, but everyone's got a team, man. Everyone's got someone behind them doing something like, nothing happened. An accident. Yeah, nothing happened on.

Accident. There's no way.

Manufactured. Yeah, it has. I mean, everyone thinks manufactured is this bad thing, though, as well. It's like, yeah, if it's. If you're an industry plant, then I can get. It's bad. But everyone can see through an industry plant. People really know when it's like, you're not authentic, you know, but there's someone working behind, behind the screens, like my. Which is why I celebrated my million monthly listeners and all these other things with my boys. Because, like, it's not my million, it's ours. Like, I didn't do that by myself. No way. I couldn't have, like, got all the looks myself. I'm great at making the music and writing songs and diving into creativity, making the videos, the artwork, all of that shit. Talking to people at parties, making friends. That's.

It.

Yeah. All the other I'm terrible at. And I know that, which is why it's not, you know. Team is key, bro. Team is.

Key. Yeah. For sure. I've learned that the hard.

Way.

Yes. In, like, business. And now I'm just trying to. Yeah. Focus on what you're good at. I think when you're younger, like, well, at least typically. I mean, I'd certainly. Did you think, like that I can do it better than.

Everyone.

Yeah.

Everything.

Yeah. I don't need some, like, old guy or help me out.

With. Yeah. I always got told. I, like, I always kind of wanted to be like that. I think. I think that was a part of me, which is always, like, as I said earlier, because I'm in general always just quite like everyone else. I'm on me, like, whatever I'm doing. I've always wanted to be like that, but I've always had people around me, specifically my dad. And then when I met my two managers that were like, nah, you can't do it by yourself. It's not true. Like, you need some people around you. And I think I've resisted it for a bit as well. But when I gave in is when I started seeing. Seeing results. And I think I also had to accept stuff about myself, which I think it just takes time, you know, as you grow up and as you get more mature, it's like you have to accept that someone's actually better at you than something, you know? And I always Find it hard because I'm always that guy. Like, yeah, I play loads of sports in it and I play basketball. When I played, like, highish level and whatever, I'm like, no one's better than me at basketball because that's how basketball is and music. I'm like, it's not a competition, but no one's in my space. But the idea of being like, you know what, you can just do that thing better than me is like something I've had to. Had to learn, you know, in order to progress. And it's hard, but it's just facts.

Really. Yeah, for sure. Okay, wrapping things up then shortly. What's the vision? Is it the same as it was at the start or has, like, experience of a certain level of success then.

Like, mix.

Change? Things are like, what's the vision.

Now? It's not really changed, you know, I'm not gonna lie. I think at the beginning of things, I never really knew what it was like to be world famous or want to be big. Even now I don't at.

All. But that you.

Don'T. I don't. I don't think. I know. Like, I've always said people like, what do you want? What do you want? Do you want Grammys? I'm like, not really. I don't really care about a piece of metal. Like, I love, you know, being commended for my stuff because it's like, you know, you want to be up there with the greats, but, like, if I care about a Grammy as an end. As an end point in my career, then I'm obviously focusing on the wrong things, you know, and I don't care about being the richest person in the world and stuff personally. So I've really had to figure that out. And I feel like I'm still figuring it out because I don't. I don't feel like I want anything from what I do. But I know that I want the lifestyle more than anything, and I want the freedom to create what I want, when I want and how I want it. And obviously I don't want to be broke doing it, but I definitely value, like, freedom over everything. And one of the goals I want is I just want to be able to, like, be in the conversation of what, like, you know, the greatest of all time, but not because it fulfills my ego, just because I feel like it's only right if you're in music. It's like you really got to push yourself, you know, part of being a musician and not like an artist or like just a rapper. Or just a singer, like a musician. Someone who's involved in music is, like, bettering your craft. Which is why, you know, a lot of my greats and a lot of the people I respect are, like, people who play instruments, because it's like, they're not just about stunting or just about, like, trying to be a cool figure. It's like they've just spent six hours a day on their craft for a long time. And I rate.

That.

Yeah. Regardless of anything. And that's kind of just what I want to.

Do. So, you know, it's way more about music than. Than fame or.

Eyeballs. Yeah, man. All of that. All that shit is secondary. And, you know, I'd be a. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't want part of that shit. You know, who doesn't want to be able to eat the best food in the world and exclusive places and flight, obviously. Yeah, everyone wants that. But, like, I don't want it enough to sell out. I'd rather make it how I make it and not be able to do that shit and just be cool. But we'll see. Ask me in a year, maybe. Maybe I'll.

Change. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Pretty profound.

Answer. I like.

It. If you could support anyone on tour right now, who would it be? These are like fucking magazines that are quick fire questions.

Now. I'd love to support St. John out there. Put me on. Obviously, the weekend would be amazing. Frank Ocean would be sick. Kanye would be sick. Rock bands, too. Rolling Stones, that type of stuff. That world would be sick as well. Paramore, my favorite band of all.

Time. Yeah, I used to love that shit. I still.

Do. But my favorite, my second song on my Spotify Raptor is a Paramore song, like, the most played yay of the year. Love it. Hayley Williams, if you're listening, hit me.

Up. I saw Josh from Umia 6 follows, you.

Know. Oh, yeah, that's my guy. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Because I used to. I was obsessed with them when I was, like, probably age, I'm gonna say, like, 15 to.

19. Oh, yeah.

Really? Like, absolutely.

Obsessed. Yeah. Josh is my guy. Like, I don't listen to him.

As much now, but it's a real throwback when I listen to 2008. Shit like, take off your.

Colors. Yeah.

Yeah. I go back to being.

15. I'm sorry, Josh, if you're watching this, but I've never actually listened to them that much. Like, back in the day. Like, all my friends listen to them, but, you know, sometimes it's like a band you like but you never got round to it. Like I just never really got around to it. And then I met him through like one of my boys, Ben and bro. They're so sound. And also now I really love their music because I. It's been in front of me. Like I've always like, yeah, I like that band because I heard a couple songs but I never dived into it. They're so sick and they're so nice. Bro. Josh is such a g. Such a nice.

Guy. It's a long career as.

Well.

Yeah. In that type of.

Music. And he's still young. He's still super young and they're still selling out shows and shit. Which is.

Sick. Yeah. Mad. Mad. If you could. Last question. Fucking cheesy one. If you could speak to your, I don't know, 17 year old self, which I guess for you isn't that long, but like as a percentage of career, I.

Guess.

Yeah. What advice would you give? And I guess like to. I'm sure there's plenty of like young fucking, up and coming artists listening. What's like the most important.

Pieces? I think firstly, I'd say don't second guess yourself because I think whatever you want to do, you should do it. And whether it goes well or not, you should learn from your mistakes. I think I spent a lot of time deciding what I wanted to do and it didn't hold me back. But looking back on it, I was just like, you know what? Go for that shit. Because there should be only one way to make it and it should be your way, no one else's way, you know, and my second thing would just be to not give a. It sounds so like general whatever. But I mean it in every sense. Like don't. Don't spend time getting caught up on like what other people think about certain things or like whether you should be playing with the cool kids or whatever. And like, whatever, because you get certain a couple years down the line and all those people that you thought were cool are going to be coming to you asking you for the same things. Always happens, always full circle. Like even some of my friends, like my boys as well, I'm like, they're like, oh yeah, I want to start producing. And I'm like, bro, I told you to start producing five years ago. And if you were producing five years ago, you would be sick. But you didn't because you're on whatever else. You know what I.

Mean?

Yeah. And I think I'm lucky that I had people around me like my dad specifically who. Like when I was getting sidetracked, I stopped playing guitar for two years. He was at stubbing a like, go pick up your guitar. I'm gonna make you go play guitar. Like you haven't sent me a song this week or two weeks. What are you doing? And I think I'm super lucky to have that through the stages. About 18, about 16 to 19. Because that's when you really need it. I think that's when your head starts to. You only start to question things more. So. Yeah. Don't doubt.

Yourself. Yeah. Sick. Powerful. Right? I guess. Yeah. Fucking get upside. We probably could have gone super conspiracy.

Level. Could.

Have. Cheers for watching. As usual. If you're fucking new to the pod, subscribe on YouTube so I can start monetizing this fucker. And I'm joking. Yeah. Share with a friend if you like it keeping these consistent. Consistent. I'm going to do an episode a week for 52 weeks minimum. It's obviously a year. I'm saying that publicly if whether I do it or not to keep it up and yeah. Hope you enjoyed. Catch you in the next one. Cheers for watching.

Peace. Sa.