How To Get Verified, £250k Username & Only Fans Money - Adam Jordan | Midnight Podcast Episode 3

Right, we'll dive in then. Welcome back to what is either episode three or episode four of the Midnight Podcast. I've dyed my hair platinum blonde since last time. Get the creative juices flowing a bit more. If you're listening, you obviously can't see, but I have. I'm here with Tokyo, as usual, and his little pillow. And I guess on this episode, I was just saying to our guest, who will let him introduce himself in a minute, this is the first time. Well, it's only episode three that I've actually recorded, but it's the first time yet that I've done a pod slash interview, slash, just sit down, chat with someone that I don't really know and, like, obviously a professional in this space would go away and research you, but, like, I have done that to an extent. It's on my iPad, etc. But like, obviously you're not an A lister yet, so it's like not that much out there. And then obviously we met through Tyler, what, two, three weeks ago, and I was suddenly like, who the fuck is this guy? Loads of followers, interesting story. Read like mutual friends in that small world, it feels like. And then I'll just get you on the pod and really go from there. So I feel like, yeah, it's just gonna be an organic one for me. Don't really have any structure with it, really, which is probably good. Over time I'll get better at that sort of thing. But I guess, yeah, just to start, like, just tell me about yourself, like, what do you do? Where have you come from? And we'll go from there because I think there's a lot of interesting stuff that listeners can learn, so.

Yeah, of course, mate. Well, as most people will be able to tell from my accent, I'm from Liverpool. Being in the social media marketing game now for I think it's about eight years. I run an agency called Social Kick, which specializes in influence campaigns, organic and viral growth and brand strategy. So I've had the agency officially now for, like, how long's it been? It's been about five years officially. Like I said, I've been in the game for like eight years unofficially. But, yeah, that's it in a nutshell, mate.

Yeah. So agency, like, obviously I read, I was reading online, just briefly went to college, etc. Probably like, a lot of people didn't really know what you wanted to do, but how do you start an agency? Obviously agency is probably. I feel like it's become like the next drop shipping in a way, and I don't think Yours is exactly like a lot of people start like Facebook ads, agencies. Obviously I've looked at yours a little bit, but like, how do you get started in that? Like, how'd you make. How do you go from, I don't know, having a paid job like 9 to 5, whatever it was, and then actually just saying, fuck it, I'm gonna start my own thing.

Yeah, it's a good question, mate. And I think you are right. I think, you know, the creating agency definitely is like a. The new drop shipping type of vibe. Everyone wants to create an agency, but, you know, I can easily say that I was one of the first people to create a social agency within my space that long ago when I was back in uni, which was, you know, was that now, so seven, six years ago? Yeah, long time. So, yeah, I went to uni and done a marketing degree and it didn't take me very long to realize that really didn't want to be in uni. And it was one of those situations where you go to uni because you've got nothing else to really do and nothing to pursue. So it's like, okay, well, my parents want me to go, I'll just go to uni and see what it's like. So I've done, I've done business. When I was in college, found that I was quite good at it. So when I went to uni, it was. It was quite easy for me to just pick up the market inside and, you know, specified in the market side of the business degree. But yeah, about halfway through the first year, my first year, I realized, wow, this is not what I want to be doing. But didn't want to let the parents down. And it was when Instagram. Yeah, it was when Instagram really just started to kick off. It wasn't even the main platform. Everyone was still using Facebook at the time. And I was always into my fashion. So I actually started to create fashion pages, like men's fashion blogs. You know, we even called them blogs back then. It wasn't even like an Instagram. Even though it was on Instagram, we called it a blog. See, I just started like reposting pictures of, you know, celebrities like Kanye West, Pharrell Williams, all these big like fashion icons. And after like six months of just literally posting just for the leisure aspect of it. So it was a hobby. I enjoyed it. Started to pick up quite a lot of followers and I was like, oh, this is quite cool. It's quite easy to grow if you post good content, you stay consistent, etc. So start to make a few more pages. Groomer first page, like 100,000 followers. And even just before I got to 100,000 followers, I got a DM from a brand. And at this time, you know, influencer marketing wasn't even a thing. People weren't even using influences or creators for the brand. So I got a message off a brand. I can't even remember the name of the brand. It was some like, like smart men's like suit and tie brand. They messaged me saying, oh, how much for, for an ad on your page? And I remember being like, wait, you can make money from Instagram? Social media. It was so confusing. So I just like set a number off the top of my head. I think I said something like 20 quid, honestly, something crazy. And you're like, yep, send it over. And I was like, that was too easy. I didn't realize how easy that would be.

And were you in uni at this point? In uni still? Which uni was this?

I went to the University of Liverpool. Yeah. I didn't go too far away from home.

Yeah. But I was in Newcastle.

Oh yeah. How was that?

Probably similar story to you. Really? I went knowing I didn't want to be there, but it was like, fuck it. Well, am I going to do? And then kind of figured out my econ thing while I was there. So probably similar story to be fair.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's just, it's not the most productive environment, is it, being around people that just genuinely don't have the similar aspirations in it. So you sort of figure out there's a different world out there. And obviously for you, those Instagram pages by Sounds of it.

Yeah, well, you know, even before I went to uni, I definitely see myself as quite a close minded person anyway.

Yeah.

Didn't really know much about different cultures, different people, different trends etc. But when I went to Union, I started to get a lot of, you know, mates from different countries. Like our friend group, it was like full of like Malaysians, Chinese, Americans, all these people coming together and it was, you know, that was the, the one good side of uni for me. It was learning about different cultures and different people and realizing the world's bigger than Liverpool.

Yeah, true.

Yeah. Like how many people have that like small town mentality wherever you come from? Yeah, it's just mad.

And obviously you're from Liverpool so you went where you're from. Whereas I'm from York, so smaller but like. Yeah, I guess going to Newcastle wasn't that far. And are you A Liverpool fan?

No, I'm a Nevertonian.

Oh, fuck's sake. Okay, right, get off this podcast. I was gonna say, I'll have to, like, you're actually the only person I know that's a Scouse and I used to always do like a Jamie Carragher impression, but maybe I'll leave that to the end. Yeah, of course, that going around. Tick tock. It's funny.

That's the go to, isn't it?

So, yeah, so obviously started making money from Instagram pages and yeah, things have changed so much. When was this? Maybe like 2015, 2016? Or was it earlier when was it. Because we're a similar age. I think we're the same age.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to think I was 2014. 15.

14, 15 it would have been. Yeah. But yeah, I started, I started making a bit of money off it and realized, you know, I've done a lot of networking on Instagram as well. So if I, you know, I had a fashion page called Men's Fashion Company and I probably found it. Yeah, I tried to find other people within the niche and start to network. Used to do like shout out for shout outs and help each other grow, that type of thing. And back then that works like someone else would shout you out on the stories or, you know, in the caption, you gain like 5,000 followers overnight. You can't do that now, but. Well, I guess you can with some page, but it's a lot more saturated. But yeah, with, with the, with the brand side of it, I started to realize, well, I can utilize not just my page, but other people that I now know. What I can do is basically connect the brands with the pages and then take a commission in between. So I take budgets off the brands and then distribute it between my network. So instead of being like, hey, do you want to, you know, post on Men's fashion code? With 100,000 followers, I can be like, look, Men's Fashion Code's got a network of 10, 20, 30 million followers. This is what you get. These are the pages. And I'd sell like packages to brands as well. So that was coming into the second year of uni. Now what I realized was when I came into the second year of uni, a lot of these brands that were coming to me were watch brands, like streetwear watch brands. I'm not talking Rolexes and Patek Philippe.

I'm talking like, yeah, watch brands. I remember those.

Yeah, like Daniel Wellington and the fifth watches. All these ones which were popping up out of nowhere.

Yeah.

And utilizing social media. And in the back of my head I was like, these guys are making a lot of money if they keep coming back to me and using my network for promotions. And I've always been into my watches anyway. So I was like, I'm gonna make a watch brand.

Yeah.

So done all the research myself. Literally did not care about uni on the second year. I don't even know how I passed it, to be honest with you, but I've done all right in it. But found my own supplier, built my own website, done my own logistics, done my own designs and started to just sell my own watch brand just via Instagram. Organic. No paid ads, none of that. I didn't even know what paid ads, where or Facebook ads were back then. Just on all through Instagram that done quite well. And it was funny because in my dorm room in uni, it was just full of just boxes of watches. And then every morning I'd run down to the post office, send them all myself, do all that. It was just nuts. But yeah, I've done the watch brand for a couple years alongside building the agency. But it was just so hard because to be a one man band, trying to create a watch band and scale was almost impossible. But yeah, I ended up stopping that just because one of the main issues I ran into was marketing spend and just a lot of the other brands were just saturating the market so much because they had so much money to throw, you know?

Yeah, so true.

Yeah, I'm just a little shitty.

Yeah, I was similar to be fair. Like I had a clothing brand in 2015, it was fucking shit. Didn't know ads, everyone took the piss, blah, blah, blah, same story. And then a leggings brand because I was rowing at uni.

Yeah.

And again I wasn't running ads, but this one did all right, like organically. Then I discovered Facebook ads in like mid 2016 and then I started drop shipping jeans and that turned into a. A decent sized clothing brand and influencers, etc. But yeah, it was very much like one man band spec. Well actually my mate ended up coming in, but we had an office in Newcastle while I was at uni. And I probably told this story in an older podcast, not the first one of this, of this podcast, but because this was like pre Neon beach, all that scandal. But yeah, yeah, it was weird because I just, I don't know, like, did you finish uni or what?

Yeah, I finished uni. No, I didn't end up dropping out and one of the main reasons I didn't drop out was for my parents, you know, my dad was one of the one. Well, he was the main person. I was like, I want you to go and get a degree. You know, I didn't really want to let him down. So I was balancing. Chasing what I wanted to do myself and what I knew I was good at with, you know, making sure he was happy and, you know, not feeling guilty for not finishing a degree. But, yeah, just this. It just got saturated so quick, the market. And I was so stupid back then, mate, honestly. Because when it comes to, like, growing a brand, it's always good. Well, within reason. And we can have a chat about this, but, you know, giving away a certain amount of equity in a company to help with the scalability, help with investment and to get it where it needs to be quicker.

Right?

Because it was called Adam Mark England. It had my name in the fucking title of the watch. And on the watch, I didn't want anyone else to have anything to do with it. That was the biggest thing. So I actually missed out on a massive opportunity because I had loads of people at the time coming to me being like, you know, let me invest X amount of money into it. And I was always like, nah, nah, I'm doing it myself. But if I would have took on investment back then, it would have been a whole of the ball game. And I know it. I know it now because I was so early in the.

And yeah, that's pretty early in watches. And, like, we. You didn't run any paid ads then.

I didn't want any paid ads. 100% organic would have been the kicker. Yeah. The only, like, external market that I've done outside of organic was I got it in British gq, like, three seasons on the bounce, which is quite fun. But even then, I didn't even bring in any sales. I'd like a unique code in gq. Load of bollocks. I wouldn't do it again. It's a vanity thing that does. Doesn't drive sales. Not when you're on a page full of, like, 10 of the watches. Doesn't. Doesn't make any sense.

So did you never just think, I can figure out Facebook ads myself? Which is what I eventually did, because if I had run paid ads, I'd probably work in Tesco right now. I wouldn't, but I wouldn't have done much.

Yeah, I was thinking of it. I think I tried a little bit. Just even still to this day, I would never run my own paid ads. Even though I'm like, you Know, self proclaimed social media expert to an extent. It's all on the organic side of things. I wouldn't ever try and run my own ads because, you know, a lot of my friends now have got Facebook ad agencies and I see how difficult it is right now. And you know, if you're not on it 24 7, if you don't know every little tweak which Facebook mates it could makes, it could get, get messy.

So yeah, it's fucked recently. Yeah. And you said you missed out on opportunities. Yeah. What sort of opportunities? With that brand, like who was approaching everything.

Like mostly investors.

Picture.

Yeah, mostly investors. I knew exactly what I needed at the time to scale to the next level and it was, it was two. The dog was making funny noises there. Two main mistakes that I made was didn't scale quick enough and didn't take on the investment to help with stock. The logistics side of it, you know, getting into a warehouse and helping them with that side of it. I was so like tunnel visioned. I just didn't take the help that I actually needed to scale. If I would have took on investment, I think I probably only would have needed about, at the time, about 50 grand. If I got 50k, I reckon I could have made it into like a multi, multi, multi million pound company because at the time very little money got you a lot of exposure.

So. True.

The conversion rate organically was like a.

Tenth of what they are now.

Yeah, literally. And when you had 100,000 followers on Instagram, 80,000 of those people might have seen organically back then.

Yeah.

Whereas now if you got a hundred thousand followers, you'd be lucky to get, you know, a 20% rate on that, which is just nuts. But yeah, I mean look, everything happens for a reason. I moved on from that pretty quickly, just kind of put on that, that on the back burner when I realized it was a bit of a waste of money and just doubled down on actually creating a scalable agency on what I was good at, which was the organic and viral growth brand strategy and just the. Yeah, the growth of Instagram accounts for anyone wanted to monetize it or just grow because they fancied it.

So yes, you sacked off the watch brand. Focus on the agency. Yeah, everyone knows agencies like more cash flow rich. Like obviously the problem with econ brand, which a lot of people don't realize as well, is that even I think I spoke about in previous episode, even if it's profitable, it's like stock you're taking a bigger risk on like buying stock etcetera, like new SKUs, etcetera. Etc. And obviously ad costs. So yeah, completely understand that. And then where are we now? Have you finished uni? Like, how's the agency going? Were you making money? We still working a job. Like where were you at?

So I was worked. The only job I had before I became self employed fully was when I was in uni. I worked at a shop called Bank Fashion which was owned by like JD plc. It was just, it was just awful. It was like, funny story actually, when I quit the job, it was because the, the boss at the time, I was on like the shoe stand. So I was standing there waiting for, you know, customers to come in and he came over to me, the boss, and was like, dust that shelf behind you. And I was like, it doesn't need Dustin. What are you talking about? And he goes, it doesn't matter, it doesn't need Dustin. I've just told you to dust that.

You are the duster.

Yeah, I just went, are you being serious? What you see, just tell me to do it for the sake of it. And he went, yeah. And I went, right, mate. Literally just took my lanyard off, threw Adam, walked out. I just walked out because that made me realize I can't work in a job where someone actually has to, well, tell me what to do. Yeah, I have to be, you know, I'm a control freak. I need to be in control. And yeah, very quickly realized then I needed to, to move on. So yeah, came out of uni, focused 100 on the agency, moved out of the, the original thing, which was like men's fashion, and moved into more like meme pages. Started to grow a lot of different meme pages and then work on the brand side of things instead of just, you know, being that middleman. So I'd be actually on retainers from the brands or the, you know, the people on the other side instead of working for the pages, if that makes sense. So instead of just being like a middleman, I actually started to be putting retainers to do what I was doing. And then I realized then that was a more stable model for what I was doing at the time. Because when I was in uni, it was quite sporadic the way things would come in and I was taking, you know, cuts from XYZ and. But I was like, right, I need to actually create a proper agency model now where I'm taking monthly retainers. I'm working not just on them, working with influencers or meme pages or whatever, but actually be involved in the brand Strategy and be a little bit more integrated into the brands because then I found more interesting as well because I was learning about the insides of different businesses as well as being paid to do so and do what I was actually good at. So yeah, I mean, like I said years and years on now we mainly focus on a lot of different, like corporate companies actually. So big like fintech companies, app companies.

I saw Revolut on your website, I think it was.

Yeah, yeah. We worked at Revolut and MasterCard. We ran the influencer campaign for the Brit Awards.

Oh yeah.

And then we also done the Revolut's content creation for their paid ads as well. So I basically came in and just said, look, you know, your paid ad content isn't actually the best. We can do a way better job. Which will then help with the organic and influencer side of things because the end of the day all that's the mold into one. You can't have paid ads doing one thing and then influences and you know, the other side of it doing something completely different. So when I work with companies now, I try and work with companies that I actually take interest in myself and I think are really good companies because then I'm not motivated to do half as good, you know, or what I'm doing because I'm just an interest in what they're doing or I don't believe.

Yeah. Was this just you at this point then or do you have employees, freelancers, a team, whatever?

Yeah, yeah. So like when I came out of uni and for a couple years after that, it's always only been me. Now when I've started to scale, take on more clients and you know, do all those shenanigans, it was mostly with people who were freelancers contracted in.

Yeah.

And the reason I took that model is because when I first started making money from the agency, I realized quite quickly that I'm not just motivated by money, I'm motivated by the freedom that money gives you.

Yeah.

So if I get locked in with big fancy offices, a load of stuff, the stress levels would be so sky high that I actually wouldn't enjoy what I was doing.

Yeah.

So I realized that I can actually self. Sorry, contract people in, so they're self employed, which takes away my stress or everything. And all the admin I'd have to do on my side.

Yeah.

And you know, the contract length would be like roll a monthly or 3 months or 6 months depending on what projects that I've on at that time. So there's a lot of people Coming in and out of the people who work with Social Kick. But everyone who comes In, I trust 100 the people that are either I've worked it before or have been like highly recommended by other people that I know have got like super solid results. I wouldn't just pull someone off the street and just be like, yeah, okay, you work for Social Kick.

Yeah.

But luckily over the years, you know, you know, it's like networking is key with what we do and whether that's with influencers or you know, Facebook agencies or whatever it is, if you get good referrals off people, it makes your life so much easier.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So on. That's kind of two things I want to talk about. Firstly, so like I saw there was like some, I don't actually see this till today. There was like some Daily Mail article obviously like flashing lifestyle. And I feel like it's funny because that's like the opposite of what the Daily Mail like or the Nearly got published about me would have been. It would have been like scam artists or whatever, but probably with similar pictures. Yeah. So did you, have you traveled a lot then obviously like pre covered because I probably did like two and a half years, nearly three years of like pretty much full time nomad, whatever you want to call it, like jet set lifestyle, all this.

Yeah, yeah.

So you did a lot of that?

A lot, yeah. I mean I've only been living in London now like officially for like well be less than two years really.

Yeah.

Before that I was traveling all the time. I just left all my belongings at my parents place.

Yeah.

And I just, just jumped flights and whenever I got bored that just goes somewhere else. And you know, it brings you back to what I said about freedom. If I had an office with a load of staff not knowing what they were doing or new people getting on board, etc, it would give me so much anxiety to like look after those people. Like I said, I'm a control freak and if something's got my name on it, like Social Kick, it'd have to be run properly and I'd have to be there. So freedom has always been the key for me which is why I've traveled over the last, yeah, two, three years non stop. Spend most of my time in Dubai and la. They're like the two main spots me just because of the creatives and the other people in the industry that I know are based there. But yeah, done Asia. I've got friends who like play 40 over in Asia so it's always been good to go visit them. Spent time in. Where else have I been? Yeah, Canada, America, like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore.

Everywhere, L.A. dubai and Bali are probably like the big three. Like I'm a big fan of Bali. I probably speak about too much. Live there for like, well, probably like a year and not, not a year. Maybe like two months, four different times.

Long time though, mate. I mean, I've only been to Bali once and I fell in love with it. And the only reason I haven't been back is because the whole Covid situation.

Situation? Yeah, I've not been for two years now. Pretty much two years to the day almost because of COVID What I think.

About Bali is the standard of living compared to the cost of living is absolutely insane.

Living like some balladilla for like a grand a month.

This is what I mean. It's not like compare that to what you get in London.

Yeah, it's just. Yeah, to be fair, that's what you said. It's like freedom. But it's also like, where was I speaking about? It's not on a podcast, I think, just with mates. And it's like if you can make just say 100 grand a year, even or even less. Let's just say you make 100 grand a year online. Mm. That's worth like in my mind the equivalent of like a million quid a year. Having to be in an office in central London. 100% because people talk about like, I want to make money or whatever, but a lot of people don't consider like the time and location freedom that certain things as opposed to others can give you. So like, are you running an agency, econ, brand, whatever it is, like online, fundamentally as opposed to having to go into an office. Because if you're making, I don't know, million quid working in the city or whatever, which by the way, fucking no one is, but barely like 0.01%. But even then it's like, I'd rather make a lot less, say 100 grand a year, which is still good money online, but have the time and location freedom. And I just think no one really considers that. I reckon Covid is woken a lot of people up to that. They're like, oh fuck, I don't really need to be in an office for a start.

Yeah, you don't need to be in the rat race. That's the thing. Luckily I'm. Thank God I realized that very early on what I was doing. And even just being in uni and doing a part time job made me realize like, whoa, you know, you don't have to do this. So social media was, you know, the biggest thing in my life that changed everything. Because that freedom, mate, to be able to get up, like right now, if I wanted to just jump on a flight to. But nowhere, doesn't matter where it was, I can do that and do that with the freedom, knowing that my business is still going to run. Yeah, everything's still going to be okay, bills are still going to be paid. Whereas the amount of times. And you've probably experienced this as well, actually. You've, you know, we've all got mates that are working nine to fives or, or other jobs. And for example, if me, if I said to you right now, oh, let's jump on the plane, just go to Marbella for a couple of days, it'll be jokes, you know, the amount of times I've said to my mates, I want to go away, even if it's only for a couple days, let's just go here. Even if it's super cheap, like, I can't go work or I haven't got any days off.

Yeah, so true. You know, I think that is the biggest, like, luxury, blessing, good thing, whatever you want to call it, that people don't realize. And it's like, yeah, when I got into like drop shipping back in like 2016, and I just remember going to Italy, I went for like a European trip by myself because I didn't know anyone, but also did that before I, like, met anyone in like the E commerce space. It's just like, yeah, because no one else can go. Even if it's like fucking 500 quid for a month or whatever, just backpacking. So, yeah, it's just mad. I think once people experience that like, freedom, it's suddenly like, oh, fuck, yeah. Because on the flip side, like last year, just before the fucking meltdown, I was looking at getting like a proper expensive office in London and shit. And then, and then I sort of like a few months later was like, fuck, firstly, glad I didn't do that because of what ended up happening with that business. But yeah, second, it was like, I think that was just me trying because I'd done the whole Bali thing and then I was, oh, I want to like fucking normalize this. Get like pay employees, get an office. But now I think that, like, I don't know, you look at brands like Gymshark or whatever, and yeah, that's like a great 0.0001% example. But I actually think most people that want to start a brand or whatever don't even want that they think they want. That what they want is to make good money doing something they love and have freedom. Yeah. And that's a lot more realistic than people think.

That's because society tells us to go and get a good job going in, you know, 100 grand here as, oh my goodness, you're rich, you're doing amazing life. But realistically, if you, if you'd say to me right now, would you rather take 40 grand and be self employed or 100 grand and have a 9 to 5, you know, I'm taking the first option. Yeah, I'm sorry, it just, it just is because that freedom to me is worth more than money.

Yeah.

Like having cool materialistic things like nice watches and cool cars and stuff, they're great. But the ability to actually get up and just off to wherever I want is the best feeling in the world. And I always get reminded of that when I get another play and I'm sitting there being like, I'm actually so grateful to be in this position to be able to actually jump, you know, jump up, fly wherever I want and do whatever I want. And yeah, that to me is being wealthy, to be honest. That like freedom. And I was gonna say, like, I seen, I've seen a meme a couple days ago and I was laughing at it, but it is so true. It was like having a Rolex isn't a flex if it tells you when your lunch breaks over.

Oh, fuck. Yeah.

I was like, whoa, that's deep.

Yeah, that is deep actually, because I've already put my cars on table with this. But yeah, fucking lost a load of money in the past year, whatever. I'm still fine. I'm still in the game. Like fucking homeless, obviously. But yeah, went from having two very fancy cars, which in hindsight didn't make me happy anyway. Had like fucking four Rolexes at one point. Sold three of them, still got one, whatever. But in a way that was like kind of a good experience. Cause now I'm like actually like the bit I really enjoyed anyway was the freedom. Like, I like cars and whatever. I've always been into that shit. But like it only makes you excited. Like for the first month of it being new maybe. Obviously I know you've got a sick car as well, but like, it's cool. But you give that up before your freedom. Like you'd rather be able to travel. Do you know what I mean? Obviously.

But if it was between, I get rid of the car straight away.

Yeah.

Like it's. I get rid of everything, my watches, my cars, like everything. Like there's, there's no point in having it if it makes you struggle. Like, this is what I mean. Like, I never understand if someone's on a job that, let's say someone's earning 25 grand a year.

Yeah.

But someone's paying 5, 600 pound a month for a Range Rover, which is.

A lot of people.

Which is a lot. It's like they're not doing that because they need it. They're literally doing it because they think it look number one, it looks cool. Number 12. Yeah. They're probably just trying to impress people. Yeah, that's, that's the main thing. They're probably just trying to impress people. They don't need that car. It's just everyone wants to look rich. Everyone. Yeah, wealthy. But you know, don't buy anything unless you can, you can afford it five, six times over. That's what I tell myself anyway.

Yeah. And just then, so obviously you mentioned like networking, etc etc and obviously like I've only met you once prior to this. It was in like so house and obviously like fucking Instagrammed. You big following, verified all this shit. So like where did that come from? Was that obviously building your following etc. Was that just off the back of the agency? Like, was that as a result of networking and working with influencers and like getting shout outs? Like, where's that come from? Because so I have fuck all followers. I never thought about it.

I started growing my personal page when it was very, very easy to grow on Instagram. So as I was growing the men's fashion co pages and the men's, the other men's fashion lifestyle pages and meme pages, I was also growing my personal page as well. Yeah, so I actually started posting a lot of like fashion related stuff. So a lot of my audience still to this day are more fashion related, which is where like the, the majority of the people who follow me, you know, came from. So I grew like quite quickly over a short period of time. And then as I started to kind of take my foot off the gas from a personal page, I started focusing on more of my clients and stuff like that. You know, the engagement started to go down a little bit and I had to slowly like pick that back up again. So still to this day, even though I've got like 140,000 followers, I'd say, you know, a good 65, 70% of the followers came from, you know, years and years before that anyway, still my own personal page. But they were interested in more the fashion side of It. Whereas I don't really post that much stuff like that anymore. One thing I'm trying to do with my personal brand at the moment is offer a lot more value and offer things which, you know, isn't just me looking cool in business class or me looking sick in LA with a Rolls Royce behind me. Like they're great to have because it's social proof. It's letting people know that obviously, you know, like the thing is, right, I never try and flex. I love my cars.

Yeah.

I love my travel, I love my watches. So if you see me posting cars, traveling, watches, it's not because I'm like, hey, look at me, how big my bollocks are. It's literally me being like, I really like this stuff so I'm gonna post it. Yeah, but as well as that, especially.

When you've like self made.

Yeah, of course. Like look at it. That's one thing people don't realize. I didn't get anything given to me. Like I literally started off my iPhone, fucking, what was it, iPhone4 or something? IPhone5 While I was in uni, in between lectures. That's how I started. I didn't have any handouts, I didn't have anyone giving me money. It was just all like that. So if I want to post stuff like that, I'm more than capable of.

Doing that without, you know, qualified to do so. Yeah, yeah, I definitely see what you mean. Yeah, like it never. It don't count if there's a lot of that around where we live. Like fucking don's just posting like pictures of daddy's yacht and stuff, which I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter, but. Yeah, come on, mate. Yeah, doesn't count.

That's what it's like being in London as well. You meet a lot of those. Yeah, those type of people. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I was a bit like that as well to be fair. I mean I definitely used to like probably flex a little bit more like particularly when I was single or whatever. It's just, just fucking works. But it was never from an angle of I'm trying to flex and I wasn't even selling anything. I probably should have shield a course back then or whatever. But yeah, it was more just. Yeah, I just liked those things. And if people deemed it is like, oh, you're flexing like blah, blah, blah. And I probably wouldn't post that sort of stuff now. Just I've grown up a bit. But yeah, it definitely is social proof. Like if you're trying to sell Smart. Not even if it's just social proof to like girls is one. Which is like. Sounds silly, but it's fucking true.

No, it's big and everyone's.

And then even just other people that you want to network with. It's like if you've got a picture, a nice car or something like this, or like you're in a cool place, it's just, it's more, it's like, well, there must be a story there to some extent. Particularly if you can scroll back and see that it wasn't always the case.

Me, of course. Like travel, cars, watches, like I said before, like those things in like the lads world are all conversation starters.

Yeah.

Like if you see like even, even Tyler, our friend Tyler, like Tyler, if you're watching this, this isn't the reason we started talking, by the way. But if I go on this page and I see driving a lamborghini and he's 23, I'm gonna go, what the fuck does he do? And how did he do that? Because to me, if I look at someone and go, that's a 200 grand car. Someone lives in central London, he's absolutely killing it in life. But his Instagram doesn't give that much away. That's why a lot of people end up messaging people. And that's why a lot of people message me as well. Because when they see me traveling, when they see me doing XYZ or they see me hanging around with influencers, it's like, who is this guy and what does he do? It's the conversation starters. It's kind of like the mysterious kind of personality that people know but no one knows what they do. And there's a lot of people like that.

It's kind of what I was kind of like that were you, to be fair. And I feel like there's two sides to it because like, yeah, I used to, particularly in the past when I was like driving my R8 or whatever, I'd get messages off 16 year olds saying like, literally saying, can you mentor me? And I'd be like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. So no, I'm just still winging it.

He'd be like, me, I'm winging it myself.

Whereas now, like some particularly like Forex traders or whatever, like we mentioned this on the previous episode, me and Billy, but now, because I've got experience and I've just done a bit of things in life and I look at a lot of those and think, fuck me, this guy is completely fronting he's probably broke because he's selling some affiliate offer etc etc and there's obviously legit people and non legit people. But it's just funny how your perspective changes when you've been one of those people that people might make assumptions about and you've also got friends that are doing it legit as well. Yeah, so. Because yes, social media is just smoke and mirrors in it, a lot of it. So how do you get verified as well? Because I couldn't even get my fucking brand page verified with half a million followers and I just, yeah, I'd like to get my personal verified. I'm not that arse. It would just be like a got a lot of followers.

But you should be asked because at the end of the day people might take the piss out people trying to get verified and stuff. But being verified, I know the benefits, I knew the benefits before and that's why I wanted to try so hard. Honestly, I tried to get verified for like a year and a half before I actually got it. Yeah, the things that pushed over the line for me was the news articles and a stroke of fortune with the same week a lot of the articles came out, I had a lot of people pretending to be my Forex account. I know, how fucking original. But that's what people do. Like when there's someone with a lot of followers on Instagram, they'll copy it and try and feed off their followers.

Yeah.

So I ended up reporting, I think it was about six or seven accounts and when, when they got reported for like impersonating me, I got a message literally within half an hour being like, these accounts have been removed. So I was like, okay, I know that I'm on Instagram's radar now because now that on every account that I'm, you know, putting forward the removing it straight away. So, you know, I'm a pair and a person of importance or you know, relevance or whatever. Like I said, luckily with it was the same week a lot of the articles came out. So I think that week I had like a Forbes bench and Buzzfeed, Daily Mail, Mirror and then a load of other ones as well. So when you typed in my name onto Google, my SEO was really, really strong on the Google News tab as well as on when you type my name in on my agency.

Yeah, I just googled you before this and Daily Mail comes up.

Yeah, yeah. So straight away I was like, pretty good. Okay, this is. If I'm going to like request it, I'll request it. So requested it inside the App where you can request verification. And back then it was even harder to get verified. Didn't put anything special in there, just requested it, uploaded my id, woke up the next morning, I was verified. So I knew for a fact it was because of the articles and the impersonators and stuff like that the CEO of Instagram actually went live a couple weeks ago and done like a live Q and A with his audience. And one of the biggest things was, how do I get verified? That's what a lot of people are asking.

Yeah.

And he said things which I knew were already true, but kind of solidified that in a lot of people's eyes, which was it's all about what your Google rankings like. So if you type your name in, you know, like you. I don't know if you've done it, but when you request verification, it says knowing us in the know and our section. Yeah, whatever you put in there is what the person the other end will probably type into. Google or Instagram's algorithm will search whatever comes up there. And depending on how strong your SEO is, that's what's going to decide whether they think you're for it.

I'll just put in known as Neon Beach Scam Artist.

Maybe it'd work. You're never gonna know. Yeah, but. So I didn't put in on the known as. I didn't put in Adam Jordan or Adam Mark. I put in. I think it was Adam Jordan Social Kick Agency. That's what I put as the known as. That worked for me. So for anyone who's watching or listening, if you're trying to get verified, you've got a few followers. And by the way, I know people are verified with a thousand followers.

It does not seem quite a few of those.

Does not matter how many followers you got me at all. It's about how likely you are to be impersonated.

Yeah.

How many articles you've got so that social proof away from social media and also your niche. So the entrepreneurial niche is actually one of the hardest niches to get verified in that and an actual brand. So for me, when I, when I done the categories, I didn't put entrepreneur. It gives you the option to say other. So I clicked other and that worked for me and I actually have done it for about. Honestly, mate, the past two months, I probably got about five people verified just through doing the right structure of to go about things and, you know, making sure they're not going down as an influencer or an entrepreneur, but doing all the right things and going down in a category that someone asked to manually search. That works a lot of the time and has worked nine times out of 10 for me and the people that I know are legible to be verified and have managed to do it.

So I have a pretty fucked up story, actually, which I forgot to tell in the first episode about trying to get verified. It was when I was trying to get the Neon beach page verified, because when it was like booming, it was only like fucking nine months old or whatever and like half a million followers purely from ads. But then one of the things is I didn't have the Neon beach username for starter Neon beach company. And someone was like, oh, you need to get the brand name for start, because otherwise you don't even look legit. So there was two parts to it. Firstly, I. I tried to get the name. I don't even know this is legal, so I probably shouldn't say, but I may or may not have paid five bitcoin at the time, which was still a lot, but it was bitcoin was at eight grand then bitcoins, like, what, $50,000 now. So. And it's just kind of hilarious because how tragic it is. I basically ended up paying someone who knew someone, he knew someone who was whatever, probably can't say fucking five bitcoin, to get the name because this person that had it wouldn't give it to me. And anyway, they sorted out because had the trademark, etc. So it's pretty legit. But they wanted to get paid anyway. That 5 bitcoin now is like quarter of a million dollars and I'm not even fucking involved in the brand anymore. So I spent a quarter million dollars, which could literally buy me a fucking Rolls Royce cash on, to get rid of two letters in a username that didn't end up getting verified. And the business I'm not even involved in now because it went up. So that was fucked. But then the second part of that, which also got pretty messy, but because, anyway, yeah, so paid this guy who was like, so you probably know him actually, I'm not gonna say his name on this podcast. Anyway, paid him like five grand, right? Which again, I'm not sure you're allowed to do it against terms of service, whatever. And he was like, yeah, I'll get you verified, blah, blah, blah. Goes by like, this happened to loads of my mates as well. One of them ended up getting it, getting it verified. So I was like, oh, took a while, but it's legit. Anyway, like, didn't get verified, went on for like three months. Ended up having to chase him loads, blah, blah, blah. And it just got a bit messy and he was a bit of a dodgy character, so I ended up just leaving it. And so, yeah, ended up wasting like quarter million dollars on a username and paying five grand on top of that. But I thought it was a good investment because I was like, I see this brand being like 100 million pound brand. This was when it was popping off and obviously I didn't pay a quarter of a million dollars because in bitcoin, but at the time. And yeah, pretty fucked. It's just funny how bad that went because paid a lot of money, didn't get verified and the brand got fucked in the ass.

And you didn't get any refund on that at all?

No.

Oh, wait, didn't. You didn't pay to try and get verified though, or you did?

Well, I paid, I guess, off the books. I paid to get the username and then also to. For help with getting verified. Right, right. Need the thing. I got the username, but that was also the main thing with the username. To try and get verified. Yeah, but then didn't get verified, so I had the username and no verification.

And yeah, that's a nightmare.

Just a really bad story. It's kind of funny, like, yeah, I could have invested that money or whatever, but don't have that money now anyway.

So the, the whole Instagram verification thing is. Mate, there's such like an underground market for it of people trying to verify. I know people have successfully done it. I know people have got ripped off and I know people. I've actually had legit people try and do it and then get refunded for not being able to get verified. But honestly, like, if you're. If you can't get verified via the actual sources with help and the right guidance, you're not meant to be verified anyway. Just where. I'd just say, if advice for anyone listening, work harder on your articles, work harder on becoming more relevant within your industry and it will come because there's reasons that if you keep getting balanced by Instagram, there's going to be legit reasons, and that's probably going to be because you're not very likely to be impersonated because you haven't got enough articles that rank on Google and because you're just not ready yet. So I know everyone wants it and everyone wants it now and everyone's impatient, but if it's not legitimate sources or legitimate help, because like I said, there are people who do it legitimately. Like if you've got good connections via like Facebook and Instagram panels that a lot of like music labels have to verify the artists, sports people, you know those guys, they've got it so easy compared to, you know, normal people. But don't try and get verified as an entrepreneur through like a sports panel or someone who knows someone or.

Yeah, there's so many services. I just got a DM yesterday and I don't post. Instagram really got 4000 followers and people trying to sell me services on like articles for verification, blah, blah, blah. But obviously now with the bad experience I've had, I'd never go down that route.

Yeah, you know, I know quite a lot of legit people who know the right articles that definitely assist with getting verified. Yeah, I've got like two or three friends who run PR agencies that are actually really good at that stuff and have helped me in the past anyway. So yeah, they're all legit people but at the same time you are going to get those DMs off. People are just trying to make it quick, few quid and trying to get some money off. You probably wouldn't even get the articles. I mean you probably end up paying them and then they just do a runner. So just make sure.

Yeah. I've also got a friend on the flip side and again I won't say who he is. It's funny, he's. He made, I don't know, he probably won't watch this but he made, he just like knows the right people, I think. And he made a second Instagram account just to like DM girls when he's like out of the country or whatever and it's got like 300,000 fake followers, like loads of fake engagement and it's completely verified with like a four word username so it looks legit as fuck. And it's just hilarious cuz he literally said himself. Yeah, this is purely to swoop girls. Like he doesn't, it's not his like genuine account, his genuine accounts, like private. Wow. It's just really funny because I, I paid all that money and I don't know how he got it, but he just knows the right people and it's just fucking funny because it looks so legit but it's completely not like the followers and engagement and everything. Yeah, but it serves its purpose. Yeah, but yeah, on that note, like do you find it. I don't know how many people's DMs you're sliding into, but firstly, does it help when you slide into people, girls, DMs. Right. And secondly, do you get more DMs? Well, obviously you get DMs but like as a result of having a big following relatively and obviously being verified, like does that help both ways?

Great question and I'm going to be 100% honest. Yeah. I don't even think I've said this publicly. Right. I could sit here and be like, yeah, it helps slime scales, dms nice and easy conversion rate replies is mad. I genuinely think it's overhyped being verified when you're looking at it from my girls. Like a girl's, you know, trying to get girls perspective. Because if you're verified to the 100,000 followers or you know, tens of thousands of followers, I feel like girls nowadays will probably put you in a category of being a fuck boy or being very active when it comes to girls.

Yeah.

And it's actually more off put and I've actually like got this feedback from girls before as well. Like mates and stuff have told me, yeah, it could potentially be off putting to the girl because regardless of how cool your life looks and how professional you are and you know, he's an entrepreneur, he's got his own business, all this bollocks, right. They are just asked about one thing and that is he's probably messing a load of girls, he's probably a football. You'll get put in that category, then it's game over. Do you know how hard it is to actually. And the reason I know this as well is I've met girls that I've like DM before on Instagram in real life, whether it's at clubs, restaurants, just bumping into mutual friends. Do you know how many people have said to me, oh yeah, like I seen you on Instagram, oh yeah, you know, you're actually nice in person. And I was like, do I not give off the perception line that I'm a nice guy? But they automatically, you know, expect me to be some. This dickhead who's playing on it.

Kind of see that to be fair. Yeah, I suppose maybe even myself assume some people like, well, not necessarily you but like, well probably you to an extent to be fair. Like you just make assumptions about like ah, I don't know. Yeah, this guy's just flexing a load of bollocks or whatever. It look, it's interesting.

It depends what personal brand you've got as well because you know, if you're verified and you're like some well known singer or YouTuber etc, people relate to People, personalities relate to personalities, right? So if you, if someone sits there and watches 10, 20 minutes of someone's YouTube video, they feel like they know them, right? But because I don't have any long form content out there, when people land on my page, you're not going to get a very good idea through pictures. Which is why at the moment the.

Opposite of a podcast.

No, exactly, that's what I mean. So that's why I'm going on loads of podcasts. I'm trying to, you know, I'm creating a YouTube channel as well to actually offer value. So for me it's a mixture of putting more long term content out there and show more personality. That's all it is. Because the end of the day, yeah, I'm not a boring guy. I'm not some, you know, stuck up boy or whatever, depending on how you're looking at it. I'm just a chill guy who's just, you know, trying to make a living, you know what I mean?

So yeah, definitely link to this podcast, your Tinder bio. I'm a year out of the game. Maybe I'll just shuffle premium account on everything.

I promise. I'm not a boy.

Yeah, something like that. Yeah, it's true, yeah, like a lot of influencers have. And this brings me on to maybe a next topic. But like, yeah, I feel like a lot of influencers, I feel like people have wrapped about it or whatever. They might have like a million followers but they're definitely not making a million quid. And I feel like any smart person, if they actually had a million proper followers, will be making millions. So it's just interesting because like you obviously get, I don't know how like how many influences you personally and obviously quite a lot. But like have you seen this where you get examples of like almost ex influencers. Like someone like Grace Beverly has obviously gone on to build like actual fucking multi million pound brands like Tallow and Shreddy and whatever and she's like a legit like Forbes 30 under 30. Like yeah, fucking hats off to her especially being so young and she had like a million followers, whatever. But she obviously monetized the audience, like proper deep connection with the audience and then built an actual business off the back of it and then correct me if I'm wrong, but then you get fucking other influencers who look like they've got a million followers or whatever, maybe like some fucking ex love islander, like D list and you can tell they're, they're struggling to fucking pay rent or whatever because they'll do. Every, every, every post is a fucking brand post. And they're literally posting like, I don't know, diet pills from some dodgy like illegal company for like 400 quid. And it's just mad because they've both got a million followers maybe, but obviously one of them has just got an actual engaged audience and knows how to monetize it.

So.

But it's obviously rare because most people don't properly.

What I'd say with this is not all influences are entrepreneurs. Yeah, Just because someone makes money, whether it's a ten out or ten grand or a million quid, does not make them an entrepreneur. Yeah, you can be self employed and you might have been, you know, you know, you have these girls who just post pictures of the tits and their ass and they get them paid through the eyeballs off bikini brands and people like that. At the end of the day, like me personally, I don't look at those people as entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs to me is someone who knows how to utilize an audience and actually scale something and make money in the long term. Not just take something like, you know, a one post bikini deal for 500 quid and be like, oh yeah, I'm a self made queen and all this bollocks, I don't care for that, honestly, you know, with what I do is what I do and you know, influence mark and being a massive side of it. I run a lot of influencer campaign to brands. But that also means that a lot of my friend circles are influencers.

Yeah.

Over the years I've went, you know, I've dipped in and out of friendship groups and I connect better with, with other entrepreneurs as well. Sometimes they're also influencers and models and all these things, which is great. But yeah, influences. I think it's funny because when you look at someone online, right, if someone's got quarter of a million followers, you automatically assume that they've got money. You automatically assume, yeah, these guys are smashing life. But the end of the day it's just online. Do you know what I mean? Those 250,000 followers, if they're not monetized means absolutely jack shit. It means nothing. I know a lot of people that have got. What's that Drake song? You know, you got more follow followers than dollars. And that's why I cannot really.

Yeah, that's not trustworthiness. Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. Another one.

Yeah, it's luckily the people around me and I'm fortunate to have a really good friend group. You know, in between like London and la, a lot of the people hang around. If they are influences, they are monetizing that and they are doing it quite well. And I'm not just talking monetizing it, like you said, taking a quick brand deal but they're actually trying to build, you know, a long term connection with the audience and then doing things which are more value driven. Yeah, which, which I love. But yeah, you are right. These influencers, I'd say 80% of influencers who are classed as influencers are probably broke as fuck because they're not entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

I've never classed myself as an influencer even though I've got like however many followers. I class myself as an entrepreneur whereas I know someone else way around I think, yeah, it's like 140000 followers. Someone could be broke if it's not monetized. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a mad world out there, mate. Honestly, that whole influencer world and the way that the world's going like prioritizing followers and vanity over actual income and careers is nuts. I'm so thankful I was right at the start of this. So I can actually see it from a wider perspective because people who are getting caught up with these numbers and how many likes to get on pictures and stuff, yeah, that means nothing mate. Absolutely nothing. If someone gets 10,000, 20,000 likes on a photo like congratulations, you want a fucking medal. Like what, what are you doing with that? To actually monetize that and build a.

Career for yourself especially I think like I'm not an expert on this but like the algorithm seems to have changed a lot on Instagram. It's becoming like Facebook news feed almost and like people are going to take to talk and, and like yeah, if I was an influencer that didn't have like you know, a proper following, it was just like vanity numbers. Loads of guys in India wanking off the bikini pictures. Which is probably a lot of girls to be fair. If you look on there like social blades or whatever. Yeah, I'd be a bit worried because yeah, just things seems like things are changing and like even with this podcast like got all followers, like 350 subscribers. What got 3,000 views on the first one but I had like 150 odd messages across that Instagram and YouTube comments, whatever about one episode because it was such a niche audience but it was like it felt like a deep audience and obviously it's long form content. That's why I think podcasts are Interesting, because, yeah, like I was saying to you before, I reckon, hypothetically, a thousand people that listen to a whole podcast is more valuable than a hundred thousand people that like your photo. But just liking 20 others every minute as well.

Yeah, the world is caught up on vanity metrics, followers, engagement, all that stuff. Another great example of that is, you know, I've obviously bought a lot of promotions from influencers. When I've been doing these big campaigns, I've literally had people who will give me a free post for a hoodie with 10,000 followers, who will sell 50 hoodies compared to someone with a million followers. I paid £20,000 to get the hoodie on and they have sold like five. Yeah, that is no exaggeration. That's actually a fact. I'm not going to say the brand or the influencer, but that is true.

Yeah, well, I will say the influencer because I work with quite a lot of influencers, less so in the past year. And I think I told you about this when we were in a few weeks ago, whatever. And like, I say my experience working with influencers as a brand owner at the time has been like, overall negative. Like not always negative. But yeah, there was a few times where you just give someone a code or whatever, like 10 code and just gift him a fucking necklace. It was at the time.

Yeah.

And they'd sell like 50 things and then the most expensive one ever did was a deal with J. Alvarez. So I'm saying his name and obviously he's probably like, I feel like the original like barley Tumblr esque fuck boy aesthetic and like obviously a ridiculously good looking fucking. I was probably jealous of him when I was at 21, as probably every lad was. And we paid him. I say we me, it's like 45,000 USD for three posts. So 15 grand a post. Which I thought, this is gonna blow up.

Yeah.

And it got like 350,000 likes. And this is for my brand, Midnight City. So wearing necklaces and this was in like the first year, pretty big punt. And I literally remember thinking, fuck me, this is brought in like no sales. Couldn't notice a difference.

Wow.

It's probably a good like brand play or whatever. But I was just like, fuck. Like, I thought this was gonna bring in like 100 grand sales in a day or just didn't like Instagram ads was what was driving sales and like Google Ads, which is probably the same for most brands.

What was the clickthroughs like in that though? Did you bring a lot of people to the site, could you tell? Like a massive surge of organic traffic.

Traffic, but like barely any conversions. And another thing is, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing to properly track it because. Because I don't know, I just hadn't done it properly with like that scale before. Didn't give him a discount code, which probably should have because he didn't want to do it. Yeah, it's just funny and similar situation. Probably shouldn't say her name to be fair because she still follows me on Instagram. So she's watching this. Well, she probably isn't watching this, but anyway, did this collaboration, like a collection collab with this influencer. Lovely girl, very nice person. I think she's fairly switched on to be fair. But she was telling me. Oh, you know, like we ended up agreeing a fee and all this because she told me and I believed it, it might be true. Like she told me she was bringing in X Massive Amount on her like affiliate for like Topshop or whatever. Like she only had like 300,000 followers at the time. Then she got like twice that. Now did this fucking collection, like going into women's jewelry and again it just flopped. And I was like, fuck sake. Because I'd spent like four months of time more than anything working on it. Like paid her quite a bit already. Like there was like a percentage of revenue deal, blah, blah, blah. I just remember thinking like, I can't tell if this is more embarrassing and awkward for me or for you because you're the one that's told me you're going to drive all the sales and it's like, ah, were you lying about the other brand metrics or is it just not fit with this brand? I can't really tell, but either way, yeah, it was just such a flop. And I just remember thinking, fucking hell. Like, I don't know, either I've just gone with the wrong influences or it's not what people think it is from an outside. Because you obviously see brands like Boohoo and Pretty Little Thing which fucking sponsor every influencer and I can't. Does it work better for them because their brand is better or does it work better for them because they've got hundreds of millions quid to throw at things and. And they just don't really track it that much.

The latter, because I think with someone like Boohoo man, plt. All those guys, they've got so much money to burn.

Yeah.

That they actually don't care about monitoring the individual metrics of each influencer. So they'll Run mass campaigns with. No, because I remember back in the day like Boohoo man used to. Even me, myself, I used to be sponsored by Boohoo Man.

Yeah.

I had a discount code like back in the day when I was like, didn't know if I wanted to go down like the entrepreneur route or the influencer route with my following and stuff.

Yeah.

But you know, they don't really care about codes anymore because they realize like it's not just the, this is the difference between influences and paid ads. With paid ads you can get all the direct metrics, you know, the click through rates, you know, the return and ad spend straight away. With influencers you've got to look at it as more as a organic.

Yeah. Like brand Thing.

Brand. Yeah. So it's going to be good for your brand. It's going to be probably more long term. Might take you know, five, six times for someone to see the brand to you know, make it a sale and you might not even be able to track that conversion from its first, you know, viewpoint. And that's why it's so difficult to measure. But at the same time that's why it's so good because if you constantly do it and you start to be the only, say Boohoo man, the only clothing brand people are seeing like right now if you, if you were to say, oh yeah, someone coming off Love island or someone who's just got the first hundred thousand followers.

Yeah.

Who's going to sponsor them? We're going to say Boohoo man because they've just monopolized the whole thing in people's eyes. So you know, there's that benefit of it. But if you're trying to do it on a smaller scale, you know, someone who hasn't got hundreds of thousands if not millions a month to spend on influencers, I think you have got to be a lot more careful on who you want to represent your brand.

Yeah, so true. Because I feel like, because I'm working on new brand now obviously I've had two brands in the past and well more than actually two big brands I guess in the past. Obviously fucked up with the most recent one. But like I feel like micro influencers, just unpaid and like this is kind of the approach I took in like the past year with Neon actually as well. Never, never pay an influencer when that was going well. Like my view, I don't know if it's right but certainly for like brands we like self funded and got fucking hundreds of millions is you should just gift your product to as many like aesthetically pleasing. Not even influencers, just people like creators, microcreators, like sub5000 followers in many cases. Just gift them your product, don't pay them, just get content, then use that content on paid ads. That would be my approach and probably on like TikTok paid ads now, because I know TikTok's like literally 10% the price of Facebook right now. So I'm actually working on new brand right now. A completely different industry, but we're only working it for like two months and I'm gonna launch that on TikTok, I reckon.

Boom.

Not even use Facebook to start with.

Yeah.

Because it's just too expensive and influencers are too expensive.

Influencers are too expensive. I think it also depends on brands anyway. It also depends on the brand, the product. So, for example, Neon beach, that's the type of product which is so unique. And so like, there's not. There is a lot of copiers now, obviously, but like when he first started that, that was such a unique thing which people didn't know that they wanted, but they want. So I think that would have been quite easy to gift influencers the hundreds.

Of thousands to take, especially because it's like bespoke. It costs like 300 quid anyway, so perceived values way higher.

Exactly. So stuff like that, that's a lot easier to get free post off people that would usually post, maybe. Sorry, usually charge like 2, 3, 4, 5 grand a post.

Yeah.

You're giving that from the cost of say, 300 quid.

Yeah.

But yeah, for, you know, things with like saturated markets like, I don't know, clothing or iPhone accessories, all that bollocks. IPhone cases, that's going to be so difficult to do, so.

True. Yeah, yeah. It's got something unique and like high perceived value to do it. Or just use really small influences, just get people for content.

Yeah. So I love that approach and I've done that loads me, you know, I've run influence campaigns where we don't pay them. Get a load of content, you know, get the permission to use on. On ads. Then you've got a beautiful feed of aesthetically pleasing content, free exposure, and all you have to do is, you know, give out the cost, the product and there you go. Bob's your uncle.

Yeah, yeah. I've just thought, actually, I've got a few funny stories and you've probably got some as well. Just on like, like weird influencer shit. And you just remind me one, because when you said Neon beach, so you know, Mia Khalifa, like the world's biggest porn star. I mean, fucking knows her. So we sent her a sign. I remember posting on my personal like screenshot from Verified Mir Khalifa like, oh, can I have a sign? So we sent her two signs. One of them was like a fucking cog with her name or whatever, fucking watcher speaking. And the other one was like a Batman logo with like Khalifa or something, right? And I thought she's never gonna post this. But it's just. Because it's like 25 million followers, whatever, but it's just fucking hilarious. So we sent her that. I don't know if it's. It might be in the back of like some only fans private porn or whatever. I don't know. She's retired from pornhub for religious reasons or whatever happened there. But not that I watch porn of course, never have, but that, that was a funny one. And then just another little blooper. I remember with Midnight City this was like smaller scale but still like fairly expensive. It was like maybe like a two grand post with. With like some. I think I know it is with. I probably shouldn't say, but it's like some older love island, like I don't know, two seasons ago love island person and like their fucking manager. I feel like a lot of these people that quickly become like famous, they end up speaking to you like shit anyway. Like you're paying them two grand and the fucking manager responds to you and like they can't even spell things correctly because they're a big shot now. It's just funny. But I remember like their manager sending me back the picture to approve and it wasn't even my brand and I'm like, fucking hell, no way. Come on. Like, I know you're an entitled cunt but you're getting paid like two grand to take a picture. At least get that right? Yeah, like, come on. And I'm not even exaggerating. That actually happened. It's probably happened loads of times. I mean, I don't know if you've got any stories like that, but it's just. Just weird shit, mate, that you just wouldn't believe.

That's a funny one. Actually. Like a lot of the campaigns that I run anyway, most of my clients are over in the States so a lot of the influencers that we use are in the States as well. But I have run UK campaigns as well. But just touching on like that love island thing. I've had the exact same thing, mate. Once again, I'm not going to mention any names. However, when I had the watch brand and I wanted to get someone who just came off Love Island. They were popping at the time. Looked like they were popping. Anyway, I paid them, I think it was a grand for a post and a story which was really good to barter them down from like, like stupid numbers. Yeah, it took ages and ages for them to send me a picture of the watch. Like them wearing the watch. And let's be honest, with a watch, it's actually quite a hard thing to take a picture of without it looking blatant and not natural. Yeah, I mean like, like this just like with your handle. It just doesn't make much. Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. But finally got it through and they were wearing the watch upside down. So like where it said Adam Mark at the top, it said at the bottom. And I was like look, that's upside down. Could you please retake that? And then the agent got bare ass with me and was like, I was going to say the name then such and such.

Yeah, isn't.

Isn't happy to reshoot. So we'll be posting this photo and I was like I have just paid you 1000 pound to post and you're going to give me an upside side down watching the picture? Are you taking the piss?

Level of entitlement for someone, it's just mad me honestly. Hilarious.

And that person's irrelevant now by the way. Just putting that out there.

Yeah, exactly. And I feel like, yeah, I mean again, not an expert on this but I feel like the ones that do take it for granted and just treat brands like don't have brand deals for very long because like do they not realize that the brands that are paying you are the only reason you, you're doing this and not working in fucking McDonald's? I mean not necessarily McDonald's, not there's anything wrong with that. But yeah, you know what I mean, like, because a lot of them, maybe I'm stereotyping but a lot of them, particularly the earlier series, I feel like just they're not the smartest of dons and suddenly they get a lot big following, a lot of money coming their way.

Well at the same time it's not.

Just, it's not keep those relationships.

Yeah. It's not their fault. It's if anything like, like I said, influencers aren't always entrepreneurs. But if you've got an agent, at least make sure your agent is, is good enough to actually do business deals and put you in the right direction. If your manager is accepting every Tom, Dick and Harry who's trying to Promote a T shirt, a cap, a fucking weight loss bikini, weight loss pill. Exactly. Like you are not going to make it out of that category. And once you're put in that category, you then won't get cooler. Better brands who are going to give you more money because they're going to look at the brand you're promoting on how saturated your audience is and they're going to go, yeah, that I ain't working with them. And that's happened a lot. The amount of times I've actually put influencers up for, you know, work with brands and they've been like, no, they've promoted such and such or look how many times they posted xyz. If there's a balance there, do you know what I mean? And if you're not strategic about it, you will fall into the category of, you know, promoting. No, no offense to boohoo, by the way, but let's say for example, to get a boohoo man deal and then they get someone else and then they just go down the. Because they just saturate themselves. The ship brands. Not saying boohoo man. Yeah, it was just an example.

Let him in. Yeah, yeah. Like you get influences where. Yeah, like they've got like a Jim King post. Like I think Jim King's like the guy actually found it that went to my school, I don't know him, but like just a certain. Yeah, they're like niche into like a certain type of brand and then maybe because they're offering them more money now, but like they're not thinking long term. I mean I've never been an influencer so I'm not in that position. But just in January I think there was like. So that's Stephen Baer. I feel like he's been posting loads of porn on Twitter recently or something. Someone sent that to me the other day, but I remember seeing some stuff where I think he was posting loads of borderline illegal weight loss pills and shit and he was getting absolutely fucking cancelled in the comments. But you must just think you would assume that he's genuinely desperate for money because otherwise he wouldn't be doing that to damage his personal brand. Yeah, not just him, like, I mean, I don't really know anything about him, but that's just one example.

He's a very controversial character. I think some of the moves are a bit mad what he's doing. Like you said, like posting porn on Twitter and stuff is like one of the most ballsy things I've ever seen in my entire life. People calling him like, people saying, he's lost the plot, he's crazy. At the same time, I'm thinking, is he not just being, like, really ballsy with his market? Because how many people now have now subscribed. Subscribed to his Only Fans and how many people now.

Yeah.

Page and, you know, I mean, so.

Yeah, so only Fans. Because that whole thing of them canceling porn, that was. Was that either misinterpreted or it was a marketing thing? Because it's not true, is it? They haven't canceled porn.

So they actually. They did put out a statement saying that they were stopping explicit content. Me personally, I think what happened was I've got to be careful myself because the founder of Only Fans follows me on Instagram as well. So.

Yeah, he's an English bloke.

Yeah, English bloke. I think they said it because that's literally the direction they wanted to do. I think from the legal side of things, to actually have a platform which is accepting subscriptions for porn is actually quite messy.

Yeah.

Especially when anyone can go and, like, start doing it without being vetted and all this. Like, I think there's a lot of dodgy shit going on there which maybe they can't control or monitor. So they wanted to be more of a, you know, VIP creators platform. When they seen the backlash of how people were reacting to that, I think they then realized, we're probably going to go under as a company if we actually don't bring this.

Yeah.

So by that, you know, then being like, oh, yeah, no, we're not. We're not doing anymore. This is what. We're sticking to it. I think, number one, they realized that they saved a lot of people's careers because everyone was freaking out because think.

About how many can't get brand deals that was now selling porn and as a result can't get brand deals again. Neither needs that porn.

Yeah. But me, there's girls out there that are like, 18, 19, 20, they'll do one month on OnlyFans and make 100 grand.

Yeah. I'm actually jealous of that, to be fair.

That is nuts. That is actually insanity. So, you know, to take that away, like, if someone's there making six figures a month, and I know multiple people myself who were doing that to take that away from them and having to, like, find another platform or other ways to monetize their audience, that would have scared the shit out of a lot of people.

Yeah.

But, yeah, they're not doing it anymore. They're continuing. And if anything, it gave them a Bigger boost in market and exposure because people were talking about it and it was trending everywhere.

Yeah. Who was telling me, like, a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend or whatever, some guy. Because you hear probably. I've definitely heard of less, obviously, like, guys that are on OnlyFans, but it's probably almost a better niche in a way because there's less competition. But I think he was making like 200 grand a month. And he's like a decent. It's like a model or whatever. I don't even know his name, but someone was telling me he's making like 200 grand a month, but he's basically just like getting his out for old men and stuff. And I was just thinking, like, where's the line? Because, like, everyone, if you honestly sat them down in a room like a bag of cash, and he said, I'll give you a million quid to do this. Like, people always say, oh, you know, I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't whatever, for like a million quid. But actually, if you. If the money was there with certain things, you probably would. And it's an interesting debate because, like, I would agree. I'd say I'm not putting my dick online for all men for money, but, like, everyone, deep down, there's probably a number where you would consider doing that, whether your face is blurred out or whatever. But true, it's just an interesting one because maybe someone like that gets into it as a joke or whatever, or because they need money and then all of a sudden they're making a shitload of money. And then, like, you hear these stories of people, like, starting out, just doing, like, exclusive content where they fucking get the top off but there's still a bra on. And then before you know it, they're having a threesome with two old men on camera or whatever. This is hypothetical, by the way. Anecdotal.

I'm pretty sure it's. It's.

But it's probably accurate.

It's a real life for a lot of people, though, to be honest. Yeah.

Because I can imagine when you start getting a little taste of the money that's coming in and then people offer you more money, know exactly how it works. But, you know, basically sounds like the more the. The dodgier and the niche stuff you do, the more, the more you can make, like.

Yeah, it fits in so well with, like, my. I'm not only fans, by the way, but it fits in with my ideology of just life. Because I've always said this, like, you can't pay bills with people's opinions. Right. So all these people that are on these platforms that are putting themselves out there. Yeah. Okay. You might get XYZ saying, oh, what a slot, what a slag. All this bollocks. But realistically, if they're sitting there making 20 to 100 grand a month and they were previously making a grand or two grand a month.

Yeah.

They're changing their whole life and they're setting themselves up because I know people that what they do is they'll take money from only fans. They'll say, right, I'm going to do it for like a year. I want to do it for whatever it is. They'll make X amount of money and then they'll take that and go and buy property or stop.

Yeah, very true.

Or invest in the right places, like crypto. I literally know so many people that made the couple hundred grand from OnlyFans, which then gave them the liquid, the liquidity to go and throw it into crypto.

Yeah.

And now they made a couple million. To me, that's crazy.

I'm probably deep down jealous of all these. These hoes that are making millions, which, yeah, I guess if I. Maybe it's arguably, yeah. Harder for blokes today. I mean, I'm not going to do it, but yeah, it's true. It's true. Like, in general, that point, like, you can't pay bills with opinions. Yeah. Like, to be fair, I probably. That's probably why I just wanted to put that first podcast out. Saying, like, yeah, I fucked up with that Neon beach thing about I'm not gonna stay off social media forever. Because obviously for me, like I was saying to you before we started, like, I started this podcast because, a, it's just fucking therapeutic and I genuinely find it interesting just sitting down and speaking to people, but it's actually a networking vehicle and granted, it's. Everything starts small. But even sitting here speaking to you, it was an excuse for me to speak to you for an hour and a half, whatever. And then you never know where that can go. And you know, you know, someone that I don't know might want to invest in my next business, say, hypothetically, and that they know someone that knows someone and.

Yeah, but not even hypothetically. Like, me knowing now that you're making a new brand, I don't know what you're doing. I want to hear more about this and I want to see if they. There's any way that I can help. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I Suppose, yeah, that was the like opinions, can't pay bills thing for me. I was just like it like I was getting all this hate online previously and now I've that, now that's all sorted. I told everyone what happened. Like there's no, you can't, you can't, no one can say to me when you lay your cars on the table.

So you've got to move on.

That was the reason I put that out there. And yeah, similar principle really because yeah, like you can just hide in the room, stay off social media forever, but the reality is if I didn't have Facebook ads, I would never made any money in the first place. Yeah, like in a business sense. But then also like I probably would have never met anyone that helped me along the way, etc, like the friends I've got now if I never had social media in the first place. So.

Exactly.

It comes back to like what we said before, that you end up building like social proof because you've done some interesting stuff and then it like piles from there, etc. Etc. And then because you're in a certain circle, you meet other people like you, anyone else, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

So yeah, that was why I was interested to start the podcast again, I suppose because I don't know where I've got, how I've got to that from talking about only fans, but it was.

A good little pivot to be honest with you, mate.

Yeah, it's the same point really. You just can't pay bills with opinions, can you?

So it's like even when you started out, you probably got a lot of people being like, what you doing? You don't know how to do that. You think he is trying to make a brand. And it's the type of stuff that I got like when I was putting myself out there, posting fashion stuff on Instagram or making my first brand, like, oh, what does he know about watches? Or what does he know about fashion?

Yeah.

At the end of the day, like if I actually listened to people's opinions back then, I wouldn't even be sat here with you right now.

Yeah.

Having this conversation if I actually gave a fuck about what people thought of me. Because that small town mentality, which a lot of people have.

Yeah.

Is so damaging and crippling to a lot of people. Like I, I even think there's still the most amazing creators, influences, musicians etc that around there that are just undiscovered because they're too scared or nervous to put themselves out there. Like if everyone didn't give a what People thought about them. I think the world would be such a better place. Yeah, we're full of, you know, the world's full of scrutiny, judgment. Everyone's gonna be trying to judge each other. Yeah, most of jealousy, to be honest. That's like the biggest thing that like even you said then, like, oh, yeah, I'm jealous of all these. I know you said it like in a passive comment, like joking. But there will be girls out there that are jealous of an only fans girl. There will be lads out there that are jealous of you, you know, earning X amount of money and traveling the world and doing all these amazing things. There's always going to be people that are jealous. But it's how you handle it. And you've got to not let that get drilled into your head is reality. Because people's opinions of you aren't reality unless you make it reality. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, because definitely, like when I was getting started, like when I had my first brand called Gentry Club this back in like 2015, like first ever econ brand. And I had like fucking probably five or six attempts at brands after that until like ones that did big numbers or whatever. But yeah, I still remember distinctly and everyone's probably got the similar fucking sob stories. So I'm not playing fucking victim. But it's just the truth. I remember these lads in the year below ironically who were like the cool kids in school. So they were probably. I'd have just started uni and I had this brand and yeah, they would. They would get like T shirts and draw the logo on and then like rip them up and shit and put it on like Facebook and that. And it was all very immature. Whatever probably affected me at the time, but I think they definitely got over that. But one funny thing was, and I remember this happening. So one of the lads that did that might be watching this. I'm not gonna say his name. I'm sure he wouldn't do that now because everyone has fucking cunning phases, whatever. But he bought from my brand, Midnight City multiple times and I could see on Shopify was his and I knew his address, etc, etc, and I wondered if he knew that I owned that brand. It's just funny because he'd gone from being a hater to a customer.

Probably not.

And there's probably more than. Probably more than just him that that happened to. But it's just interesting. Yeah, because I mean, I've said it in a few of the podcast episodes, wherever said it in a freestyle rap. But it's just like it says a lot because people like, I don't actually know. He does now, to be fair. I'm not saying he's got a bad job or whatever, but I know he's not running a business and he probably never will because people that end up creating stuff don't generally, you know, people that hate on stuff never really do anything is my point.

It's so true. Me. Like, all the entrepreneurs that both of us are surrounded by. When was the last time you seen anyone? You know, we share similar circles. We've got friends that cross over and stuff. Even the ones that don't, not one of them would sit there and be like, oh, my goodness, look at this brand. It's so shit, this guy. Shit. I'm gonna create. I don't know, I'm gonna just take the piss out online or whatever it is publicly. Like, you know, we might have our opinions about certain things, but you'd never, ever see anyone completely tear someone else down in a room that we didn't know if there was a reason to. And there's a reason for us to look into something that's different. But if some random guy in America just created a clothing brand, you'd never say to me, look how shit this clothing brand is. I'm gonna let him know how shit it is. I'm gonna do something to really, like, let him know it just wouldn't happen.

And then it's weird because, like, start with anything. Like, when you first start, it's gonna be shit, like, whether it's a brand or podcast or whatever. But then obviously, over time, and like, what's the phrase? Like, experience breeds confidence. And it's so true. Like, you then start hanging around with people that do have successful businesses or brands or whatever, then obviously you build up experience over time. It's like, yeah, I've built two big brands in the past. One successful, one successful. They're not successful. But now I know when I'm doing the next one, obviously it's going to be successful because. And it might take time. What might happen overnight, but, like, there's never even a glimmer in my mind. It's not going to work because I've done it before and I'll do it again. And obviously. But if I'd never started in the first place, if I'd stopped trying to build businesses because of that one bit of hate or whatever, that's kind of tragic because you probably never do it again. And it's similar with, like, with content or, like, making YouTube videos, whatever. And Similar thing happened to me. I used to make music covers like people sell. I sound like Niall Horan. I wasn't that good at singing, but I was into like guitar and that, right. I used to make that shit. And then someone found out from school and they're like, oh yeah, shit, I'd like 4,000 subscribers. And I stopped making it. And then I started a vlog channel like four years ago when I was traveling. I like 200 videos. Right.

That's a lot, by the way.

Yeah, a lot of videos. To be fair. It's different channel to this one, but it's still on there. And then I think there was a similar comment somewhere along the line. Maybe it was even fucking family members saying, why are you making that shit? It's pointless. So I've stopped making that. Cause I wanted to be like a travel vlog. At the time I was probably less interested in it long term, more of a phase, but. And then, yeah, I guess like even this small podcast channel is fucking third time around doing like the YouTube thing. And I'd always wanted to like put some content out there because I just, just hadn't figured out what the right time or medium was.

Yeah.

And now, now I was just like, fuck it. Like I'm, you know, got to the point in my life now where I'm old enough not to really give a fuck about. Especially because of the whole Neon beach thing. Whatever. I just got used to getting some hate online. And then actually the reception to this, even on a small scale was way better than I thought it would be because most people, you know, are probably interested in it, but either they haven't got, they haven't got the it's experience or connections get people on or they haven't got the confidence to do it themselves.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, I was just like.

From an entrepreneurial perspective, the journey you've had and the ups which you've had and the, you know, those things which would put anyone else off from ever being in that space ever again, you've used as motivation to then kick yourself off and keep going, moving forward and creating new things. Not everyone has that shows you're actually a true entrepreneur. I mean, if you cared about what people said to you, like the negative comments, people kicking off whatever it is, you wouldn't be successful. You wouldn't be in this position. Do you know what I mean? So you, by you having that mindset shows me as well, like how far you're gonna go and, you know, the success you're gonna have moving forward. As well. So that's going to be exciting to see.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's true. Like, it's just a mindset in it because, yeah, winners win. That's kind of cringe. But it's true. It is like, yeah, yeah. And I feel like with this podcast, even though I feel like I'm back to, like, square one, where I was with, like, my first econ brand, because obviously I've never built a successful podcast.

Yeah.

But I'm pretty sure if I'm consistent with it, which is obviously the hard part, especially when you're not, like, revenue generating from podcasts. Whatever. But if I'm consistent with it, I'm confident I'll. I'll smash it out like anything else. Because the same principles in it. It's like, same as starting any business.

Yeah.

Like, obviously, like, even trying to get Tyler and Billy on the first episode was like pulling teeth. It was like, come on, I just want to fucking record a first episode. People are, we haven't got any followers, like, blah, blah, blah. Well, obviously I haven't some point if an out yet, but you just got to accept, like, with anything. And in this case, the podcast, you know, it's gonna start slow, but if you're consistent, you put out, like, authentic stuff. Just. Which I'm trying to do. Yeah. Then it'll probably work 100%. So. Yeah. Yeah. Deep. I mean, I guess to wrap things up, we could probably fucking speak for, like, five hours. But then people stop watching. Or I need to get, like, a bottle of red wine out, which I ain't got to hand right now. Where do you want to take the agency? And then, like, what's next for. Well, you really. Is it the agency? Anything else? Like, where do you see the next five years? And I said, you're still figuring that out, but is there any thoughts?

So with the agency this year, as much as I love doing it, I don't want to give anyone 50% of me. I only ever want to give someone 100% to my clients. Yeah, you know me as an agency, we're not the cheapest agency, but that's because I know the value which I can bring, and I know how good I am at what I do. So I'm not going to be the cheapest, which means if someone's paying a lot of money, they expect incredible results and they expect someone to be quite integrated in. So this year I realized that I wanted to cut down the clients, which I have, so I can focus 100% on the ones that I really think are going places and I can be more integrated into, but also help people that might not be able to afford my monthly retainers or my, you know, just getting started off and don't really know where to go. Which is why I've started to pivot over into info products. I've just released my first ebook, which is an Instagram blueprint essentially. Yeah. Teaching people how to strategize, monetize and grow on social. You know, it's, it can basically be used if you're a brand, if you're an influencer, whatever it is. I'm like plugging this, I didn't even mean to. But that's just because it is actually what I'm focusing on right now because my DMS are constant, constantly flooded with people being like, can you help me? Can you help me? And honestly mate, I, I can't help a lot of them because it would take way too much of a time. I'll probably get in between five to 10 people a day being like, can you help me? Can you help me? And yeah, the fact is that I can't reply to everyone, but I wanted to create a product which was at low, you know, a low cost that people can basically digest and it's like a do it yourself version of what I'd be able to give them anyway. Give them all the information they need and my knowledge, but get them to do it themselves. So I want to help more people, which is why I've went into this. It's literally not just to make money, it's actually because I know I can help a lot more people on a mass scale by doing this because, you know, the equivalent of me going to a client and charging $10,000 and then saying, well, for $97, here's what I think you should do.

Mmm.

Go and try and do it. You know, the majority of people are going to go for the $97 option obviously. So yeah, that's, that's what I'm focused on right now. Ebooks create an online products which will help people for a low cost, which means I can then automate my life a lot more, which means I'm not always on calls or clients or going to meetings, etc, I can focus on the big ones which I think, you know, going to do extremely well and I really enjoy being involved in. But as well as that, as well as that helping people in the masses, so offering, yeah, info products which can actually help people change their lives and whether it's making more money or just helping them get the first 10,000 followers on Instagram. If I know I can help them do that, then why wouldn't I try and do it?

So yeah, it's the focus. Do you think you'd ever start an E Comm brand again?

Yes.

Interesting. People in my experience either build brands or do like the agency stuff. Typically at least when they get inside.

Do you know what's funny, mate? I've said to myself for the last couple of years, if I'm gonna make 10 million quid, it's probably gonna be from an econ brand.

Yeah.

I just haven't. And the reason I haven't is similar to you. I've done drop shipping but I probably done it a lot. I wasn't as invested into it. So I just like flip up a quick drop shipping store within like literally in an hour.

Yeah.

And then I'd run it across a load of meme pages and a few influences that I knew on the channel. Cheap. I'd make a couple grand and then I just dip, which is. Don't do it guys. Honestly, it's just. It's not worth it.

Yeah.

But yeah, I definitely would. And the only reason I'm not doing it right now is I'm not gonna start a product unless I know it's a winning product. I'm not just gonna freeball and be like, oh, I kind of think that would work. If I see a product that I know is going to work and. Or a. A brand which I think is just going to take over then 100. I'm going to be doing E comm in the future. Don't know how soon, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hard. It definitely needs time. I agree though. I feel like building a brand, an E Comm brand aside from like building a per. Well, yeah, like you can build a personal brand as well, but I think, yeah, like financially building a successful econ brand that you can exit from is the biggest opportunity. Like financially. Yeah. Apart from maybe like some only fans girl getting in on some like initial coin offering and making 100 million quid from like wank stained coin or something. These meme coins that were happening back in like March.

Yeah, yeah. I definitely dabbled in the shitcoin space. Lost some.

Yeah.

Don't think I'll be doing that again.

Safemoon, all that crap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's an interesting one. Crypto. Yeah, it is.

It's nuts.

But no, yeah. I'm excited to see where you take it, I think. Yeah. I just think that there are a lot of people that want to do things and are doing things that don't get enough airtime. Whether that's because. Well, whether they want it or not. And that's kind of why. Yeah. Want to do this pod, really, because there's a lot of, like, regular faces which, like, probably bigger. Like, bigger brands like gymshark, whatever. Like, they go on podcasts all the time. That's all well and good, but I feel like sometimes they're not as relatable because they're, like, so far ahead of, like, you know, your average, like, early 20s. Something that it's just like. Ah, fucking. Whereas. Yeah. I just think speaking to people like you and loads more guests we got coming. Well, that's the plan, if I can keep it consistent. Yeah. Just get people perspective on different sorts of entrepreneurship, whether it's econ, property.

Yeah.

Music, whatever, whatever.

Relatability is. Is key when it comes to stuff like this. Like you said, Dan, like, if there's constantly, you know, billionaires and people who are in just really unique situations, you know, coming on podcasts and listening to them talk, like they're not always relatable stories.

Yeah.

Whereas, you know, if you keep it real and you keep it honest, which we have, and I know you have in your last episode as well, and you'll continue to do so. That's. That's the key, mate. So, yeah.

Yeah, that's the plan. Right, well, good to chat. On that note, we'll wrap up the app and, yeah, I guess subscribe, like, whatever. I mean, I don't know how to measure this podcast yet because it's on YouTube, obviously. It's on Spotify and Apple as well, but, yeah, just go listen to it wherever the fuck you want, really, and I'll see you in the next one. Peace.