Life as a YouTuber, Getting Cancelled & Finding Fulfilment - Spencer Elmer | Midnight Podcast Ep 45

When did YouTube peak 2020.

Before I got cancelled. Yeah.

You got cancelled?

I did, yeah. And I was seeing numbers and even like revenue off YouTube I've never seen before. And then this situation happens with a girl that I used to date. It was, it was a big mistake. For my part. I should have been more like aware that the damage that this video could do. I remember waking up in Devon with my mum, bro, 2, 300 dms that morning.

Well, like hateful dms.

Oh, bro, yeah, mum's address. My mum seeing this as well. It's horrifying, bro. I got explained to her that like, everybody's gonna like know about this. There's no hiding from it. I'm talking like school friends, industry friends. People in everybody is gonna look at me differently now. I just kind of had to sit there with thousands and thousands of comments. I think I lost 20k on insta over like a week. That's what I mean. So I've gone from being this vulnerable character that's tried to be honest with everybody, got lost in the source a little bit and that one time, it's just ruined my whole.

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So it's a circle thing.

Yeah. And as I was saying as well, I'm trying to expand the polled outside just D2C, E comm entrepreneurs because that gets boring. But also doesn't get any fucking views to the extent. So it's a bit of both. So I'm interested to hear about your story because I don't know very well, but as always is the case with the pod. We spend two hours drinking wine and speaking to someone. You go away knowing them pretty well. It feels like the best benefit of the pod for me, really. So it's always interesting, I guess. First question, as always, is who are you, what do you do and what's kind of the story up to this point? Because you're only 22 now.

22, yeah.

Which makes me feel very fucking old.

I'll come off it, bro. Yeah.

But yeah, I guess like chronologically. How did you get started on the whole YouTube thing? I know you've got a bunch of shit going on, but we can go through the whole story.

Sweet. And Spencer Elmer.

Yeah.

Also known as elmo films online. 22 years old, moved to London. We'll get there, but probably like five years ago, something like that. Started off in Devon. Grew up in Devon. I was there until I was about 17, but I started making. It all started from Call of Duty.

Really.

It did. And FIFA pack openings.

Yeah.

You see us go. You play CS go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started off gaming when I was like 15. It's like a big thing. Like I did all the whole like trick shot and thing. Were you into that kind of at the whole, like.

Yeah, I used to watch it.

I used to live and breathe. It was like my thing, my shit. Sorry. And then I think I did daily uploads, so I must have been like year 9, year 10 by then. Daily uploads on YouTube for about a year and a half. And it's all like story times, like whilst playing Call of Duty, but never show my face. I think I got to, I want to say, 10,000 subscribers. I did a face reveal and then that's when I started, like getting more interested in the blogging sort of stuff. People like, oh, we want to see more of your life.

Yeah.

I must have been 16, 17, growing up in Devon. Everyone was just like, what is this kid doing, man? Still get it today. But yeah, that was kind of where the YouTube thing picked up. I started going to, like, meetups in, like, Birmingham and like Manchester.

Like people Vidcon and.

Yeah, like the B tech ones.

Yeah.

This is like before I got there. The. And then when I was 17, I went to. I did my first year of college. Realized that it was kind of one or the other. It was like taken over a little bit. I probably had like a hundred thousand subscribers at College. On the YouTube stuff, it was like more vlogs, showing my life. But the whole message behind it was, I remember I was at college, I made a video that I was actually crying in, which is a weird one, but I was like, I don't know what's going on. I've been making content now for a few years. I'm going to drop out of education and film the experience. And it was like, you can watch it if you want.

Yeah.

And then it kind of picked up from there. I met a few of my YouTube friends, like Touch the Light, Carmi, maybe Millie. It's like my circle. So I met them through Twitter in like 2017. And then we all moved to London. Yeah. When I was 17 years old, moved to Bermondsey. And I think that's when YouTube became more of a platform for me to get creative off instead of just being a YouTuber. So I started a brand called OIR, which is all about leaving college, doing what you want to do, that sort of thing. And then now do music as well, which started when I was 18. Fell into that accidentally as well. And then we worked on a brand called Gen Collusion.

Yeah.

So that was a brand that we started when I was 17 with ASOS, which is a different one as well. So, yeah, it's kind of like YouTube, music, fashion, I'd say.

So. So you dropped out at 17.

Dropped out at 17.

So you didn't finish like A levels, all that shit.

So I knew I wasn't going to get through because I didn't revise. But I did it right, my coursework and I broke my ankle until I couldn't go to the exam, basically. And they put me from coursework and I left.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you moved to London. Like, is YouTube, like, paying you well at this point?

It was, yeah. It was doing well back in the day. Yeah, it was good. It was a lot better then.

Really. There wasn't as many adsense. I want like brand deals and shit.

Adsense. It was more like you could definitely make a living off views back then for what I was getting. Now it's a bit different. But yeah, it's like the main thing that we did.

Yeah. Because I had a YouTube channel I could just send off camera. Before when I was like 17, it would have been. And it was like One Direction music covers which people can go and find. It's not linked on this channel. But it does say somewhere. Right. It does still exist. Yeah. And I went through a phase of wanting to, I don't know, be a YouTuber of some sort.

Did you sing?

Yeah, I did. I was never that good, but I was like, decent.

Okay.

Now I can freestyle rap, but that's a whole other thing really, like pretty well. Okay, I'll do afterwards. But then, then I had like a travel vlog channel when I was like 21, which is. Which I'm glad I had. It was just. I look back at that now, had like no views, but like 200 vlogs on there. And then obviously started the pod like 11 months ago. And now it feels like I actually have a relevant outlet that can actually do consistently on YouTube. So feels it's almost like full circle. Even though I do not remotely consider myself a content creator or youtuber. I guess I'm just a pink light podcaster at this point. I'm here on the side.

I'm here for it. Big fan.

But you actually made YouTube work.

So for a little bit.

Do you think that's just consistency or was it like I was an addict?

Like, I was so. I had such an addictive personality. So I've got to be so careful with what I, like, put myself in.

Yeah.

But if I love something, I'll do it every day to, like mad degree. And I was uploading every day at school, like when I was doing my GCSes. And I think the consistency was what built the loyalty. And then I felt like I had like a nice click where I could be vulnerable with my audience. And it felt like refreshing, you know, the conversations in my comment section were meaningful.

Yeah.

Instead of it being like, yo, like, nice fitbird.

I mean, is that because you were sharing, like, crying and Stuff you actually could say. So, yeah, yeah.

But those videos of me crying, bro, like. And the thing is, I wasn't sat there like, I'm gonna cry, edit this video and then post it, because people. It was like. I don't know what was going through my head at the time, but I think it created that vulnerability that I could kind of like, I was like, okay, I'll be that guy that could just be like, I feel shit today, but I'm just gonna talk about it. And I think my audience at the time were the same age as me. Hello.

He always does this. He intros to every guest.

Yeah, of course.

That's a little sniff.

It's the most attention I've had all. I've been here for, like, half an hour. But, yeah, I feel like that vulnerability was something that I felt I could connect with an audience. Like, people would come up to me and they'd be like, I've dropped out of college. I'm now a photographer. And it was like, decent conversation. But I think I definitely lost myself. I was probably 19. The lifestyle took over. I thought it was a shit. Big ego, lost a lot of friends. And I look back now, that was an important stage in my life because I've gone from Devon, this, like, seaside town, 10,000 people in my town, to living in London, soaked up by the Mayfair club scene.

Yeah, it was bad.

It was bad. But at the same time, such a valuable lesson, right?

Is that because you started getting money and had followers and then when you're young and that happens.

I never had attention in my life, bro. Like, I go to school, like, there wasn't many people like, that would be like, whoa, anything. I used to skateboard every day. Like, nothing. Nothing was entertaining like that. I mean, so I think for me to come from Devon, I just felt like I was a ship, bro. It was insecurity. It definitely was.

Yeah.

I was away from home. I didn't know what doing. I was with other people that were in the same situation. So it's almost like a comfort blanket. We used to just go clubbing and just. Do you know what I mean? Like, you get the bottles in and, yeah, your mates at home, that's still at college.

Yeah.

And I'm doing something, but it's just a blur, bro. It's a blur that two years, like, first two years of London were a blur.

What, 17 to 19?

Yeah.

That is young.

It's young.

Yeah. I didn't move it, so it's like 23.

It's probably a good decision.

But I spent my three years traveling prior to that. So. Yeah, different, but completely different.

But yeah.

The Mayfair Club saying you can swallow anyone.

Oh, it does. And it's strange because I see people do it and now. But you can't say anything. You can't say anything to these people. Like. But I guess it's just the industry that we're in, Right? Get money quickly. What do I do with it?

Blow it on bottles, though. Scams.

Legit. Legit. And then. Oh, yeah, like girls. This, that and this. I don't know, man. It's a weird. It's a weird circle. Like. But I don't regret it at all. You have to learn those weird lessons because you. You look and you're like, why am I going clubbing? Like, what, bro? Like, you can just. With a bunch of people that aren't talking to each other.

Yeah.

In a loud music setting.

So true. Even now.

What are you getting out of it? We can listen to music really loud right now. Be the same experience.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Very true.

But you're paying £100 thousand pounds for a table.

Yeah. It's crazy.

It's weird.

It's a legal scam, in my opinion. In many ways.

Illegal scam.

Yeah. Like clubbing. Like, it's like people get paralytic, then have to put their card on a machine at the end of the night and you don't really know what you're paying for.

Yeah.

It's crazy. But it makes a lot of money. I had Asher on the Pod. He runs Like Rain and a few others. So I'm not saying it's a scam, but it's just. It's a good business model. Yeah. It's just. Yeah, but for a loose age, we get into it the wrong, wrong reasons, I think maybe. Right then, fellas, quick one. First official sponsor for the Midnight Pod, Triple Whale. If you want to track your econ metrics Properly, all your KPIs, or your dashboards or your blended roas, all that good shit in an easy to understand dashboard, as well as proper post iOS 14 pixel tracking. Know your real numbers, because I didn't in the past and I got it very wrong. Nowhere to spend more money, nowhere to spend less money. All the shit that's gonna drive your brand forward. It's what I use every day in my new brands in the past brands. It's what all the guys on the pod of running super successful businesses use as well. And it's what you should be using. Triplewhale.com. go click the link below, check it out and use my link. Support the fucking pod. Let's go, boys. So YouTube did that. You said that took. You weren't as focused on that, like, where did what? Where was your time going? So you got YouTube, fashion, music, like in what order and which one came in next?

So it was before I moved to London. I got a email from ASOS that was like, I had no idea at the time. It was like an NDA. No idea what was project. But we want to interview. There's like 2,000 people. I was like, no idea. I remember I went out clubbing in my local town, Exeter, the night before. Woke up to this early, like so hungover, like violently hungover. 17 year old. So, right, I'll do this interview. And they asked me bear questions about who's your favorite designer? And at the time I was just like into streetwear, like Pyrex. I was like Virgil Abloh, like all this stuff. And then got this job, had to go to London every week. And it turned out we were building a brand. There's like five creatives with ASOs and we made collusion from scratch. So that was my first like eye into the fashion world.

Mmm.

Like as a 17 year old, like being with people that I don't know. There's loads of people from different walks of life. And I think that's what taught me the most experience, like getting to know people that have different experiences. They've come up differently to me, different lifestyle. It was the first time I was exposed to what London was really like. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Like, do you know what I mean? There was people from different areas, stuff that I've never experienced before. And it was like, I don't know, it was very interesting. But that was my first walk into the fashion world and then I started my own brand and then I moved to London.

Do you think if you had to pick one now, would you do YouTube or fashion? I know you didn't both, but you kind of ones, you said like fading at this point, but we can get onto that. We skip like multiple years there.

Yeah. Gonna say I love making content. I think the thing that gives me the most anxiety and like the rest that comes with that is the pressure of how you're perceived on YouTube. That's what's fucked me massively, like hugely. Like the pressure to not even deliver or like be positive. But it's such an invasive world to be in. That makes sense. If you do something wrong, you get cancelled. Yeah, bro. But you can't it's like work. You go nine to five, you shut the door, then you can be yourself.

Yeah.

Wherever you go out in public, in the club and then you still be reminded that situation because some girls just had to go at you for something you've done online. I think that's where my mind started being like, what am I doing? Like, it's a weird cycle. So I'd love the fashion stuff because something I'm passionate about and I don't feel like I'm sacrificing my mental too much by doing it.

Yeah. When did YouTube peak, do you think?

For me?

Yeah.

Covid.

2020.

Before I got cancelled. Yeah.

You got cancelled?

I did, yeah.

Do you want to speak about. I didn't know that. I mean, we'll brush over it. Yeah, of course, yeah. I'm trying to keep it chronological, but you just.

Yeah, yeah, we'll get onto it. But it was a very pinnacle part of my life. Yeah. I'm glad it happened. It wasn't for something outrageous. I wasn't like, ridiculous.

I fucking know. Am I gonna open up a can of worms here?

Not at all. No. It was more like a relationship situation. It wasn't like I've done something mad.

Yeah.

There was a big separation in audience and.

Because that's in the public eye. Yeah. Fucking hell. I know what you mean. It's rough. Well, I guess I can imagine what you mean. I don't know what he means. I've not been there. But, yeah, like, terrifying, bro, Terrifying.

Like. Like just sat there powerless. We'll get into it. But it was a situation where I was involved in, but it wasn't like my doing massively, but I just kind of had to sit and face it and just be like, yeah, yeah, crazy. It was rough, though.

So you get to like 18, then on 19, whichever one you want to call it. What does a day today look like as a YouTuber? Because I feel like a lot of people, I probably used to wonder this because at 19, I would have been in uni before I dropped out.

Was it like.

Yeah, like, are you. Did you have a routine? Like you work, home, I assume. Like a lot of people, bro.

I'll be honest with you.

What was the setup? Or was it very, like.

There was three of us, Me, you met Ben Morris. You know, Morris and Millie lived in a house together. And I'll be honest with you. Wake up midday, proper line. Proper line. Hungover as well. Most mornings, get up ubereats. We used to have like, calls of management. Okay. So like this week you've got this brief with this campaign that you need to do. So if it was like a brand, we'd have, like, brand deals. Go and shoot that. Or, okay, let's film a content, like, video. Like, say there's four of us. We'll film, like four videos as a collab. And that was done for the week. And then you go out and party. I'll be honest, bro. Yeah, it was. There was no routine at all.

I think that was good because it sounds like.

It sounds fun, but it's.

Yeah. Especially to a lot of younger people. Dream. I guess it's kind of like uni, though, in that way. Apart from you just had money and you didn't have to go to uni.

But, like, yeah, that's what a lot.

Of uni is, like, just waiting around, going out, hangovers the whole time. Yeah, it was probably why I didn't. Like a lot of uni, ended up leaving.

But do you go uni?

Yeah, I dropped out twice, though.

Twice?

Yeah, I dropped out, went back, dropped out again, then never went back, but never for me.

No.

I like the social scene to an extent, but I think it's like a. It's a recipe for disaster in a modern world, like uni. You put a lot of young people, that young broke people in a big area, make them all fucking drink and be away from, like, their old friends and shit. It makes you grow up. But, yeah, it's probably like a. And like a gateway drug to, like, depression and anxiety and like, social media addiction in many ways. I don't know. I don't know what the better answer is for young, young people, but it's not ideal.

Routine is goated.

Yeah.

I think that's the only thing that keeps me sane. But, like, back then, there was no routine. That's the lesson I had to learn the hard way. By being depressed. Depressed brain, like, getting up. I used to love the gym, like, when I was a bit younger. And then you move, you're drinking alcohol, you order Mackie's every night. Yeah, you're ordering, you can't cook. Yeah. I mean.

Oh, got on the side, but yeah.

Mate, there was no routine. It just wasn't good, bro. Like, I'd go back to Devon, see my mom, and she'd be like, you look awful. I got a really good relationship with my mom. My best friend, she'd just be like, you look awful and I feel awful. Do you know what I mean? So it was. It was a difficult time. Like, I can't lie I was very blessed to be in that situation. I know I was, but I didn't know how to handle it.

Yeah.

At all. And I think that's come from just pressure, like, feeling like. Because I feel like every YouTuber, right. It's got. It's not character that they play, but it's an extension of who they are. It's like a animated version of themselves.

Yeah.

When you're doing that 24 7, you don't know which one's which. Right. Yeah, you kind of, like. You don't know when to start acting. Like, what? Especially, like, online, like, got a lot of eyes on you. I don't know. It was just a weird. Do you know, like, they say, like, trauma, it wasn't traumatic, but, like, traumatic parts of your life, like, almost like, meant to be a bit blurry that you just forget the.

Yeah, that's how I feel about a lot of last year.

Yeah, exactly. Don't really remember, but if someone says something. Okay. Yeah, I do remember that.

Mm.

But you don't. You don't dwell on it too much. It just kind of happened. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That's what the introducing to the YouTube London lifestyle was like. It was rough, to be fair, and it was sad because I remember just feeling. So. I think the pressure and the anxiety just took over a little bit. You join the mic as well. Yeah.

He needs to make a decision. Where's he going? Crazy dog.

And I'd post about it, bro, this is what we're on about. I was being vulnerable, but I wasn't in the right headspace. So people were, like, worried, bro. I just post all this weird, like, shit. I don't know. The thing is, with me, right, my YouTube experience is probably very different to a lot of other YouTubers. You know, I just think I moved in with a bunch of YouTubers and I didn't know what I was doing, and I was insecure, and I was anxious, and it kind of messed me up quite a bit, to be honest.

Do you think that came from being a YouTuber, or is that just, you know, you're a fucking young guy figuring out, like, a lot of people and people just knew about it. Because you're a YouTuber.

Yeah, I think it was that. I think I was already insecure about a lot of things, and then I amplified it myself by telling everybody, like, as much as it's great to be vulnerable online, I just felt like, because I thought that was my brand. Just look like a mess from the outside.

Mmm.

I was Figuring myself out. But I was sharing it.

Yeah.

So, I mean, and it's. It's good.

It's kind of how I feel about this podcast. But, yeah, way too honest about everything.

More calculated than I was, bro.

Maybe. Yeah.

Like, very, Like, Yeah. I don't know, man. It was. It was a scary headspace. But at the same time, as we're talking about earlier, the lessons I learned 18 to 19 will be like the primary ones I carry with me for a very long time.

What do you think the main ones are?

It's more things about myself, to be honest, like how I view myself, how I value. I didn't value myself at all then. I was living life to entertain other people every day, every week. Because you think I was doing weekly blogs most of the time.

Yeah.

So it's like, okay, this week, how can I make this my life entertaining for other people? By the way, I'm talking about this as if it's like the worst thing in the world. It was great, man. But at the same time, the reality of it was I was living to impress and entertain people that were younger than me. And I think that's where mentally, I kind of went a bit loopy because I was living for other people. So once you do that for five, six years in a row, four years, you forget to start living for yourself. What do I like to do? I don't know.

Yeah.

Because I'm so caught up on what other people want to see me do.

Jeremy, did you, like, we're all your mates, youtubers at this point?

Yeah.

And were they all going through the same thing behind.

Behind the scenes? They were, but I think their contact, they're like, where's this dog going, man?

This dog's about to ruin this podcast.

Nicer. They did more. And they did more, like, comedy content, so they couldn't just sit down and be like, yo, I feel like. So they could hide it a lot more, I think.

Yeah.

I was. I was known as that, like, sad boy.

But I mean, do you think they were feeling the same things?

Like, definitely.

Oh, fuck. I've got to put an act on. All my entire life is trying to please other people because I've got an audience.

Yeah.

Because I used to follow Joe Weller a lot, for example, and I know he. He publicly. I remember watching the video, and this is probably ages ago, but him, like, crying about the fact that he wasn't happy making the content that his audience liked and shit. Was it that sort of vibe for you?

Completely. The thing is, with Joe, like, I've always respected and rated him because I felt like I could relate to, like, his mindset with it. Because you watch that video, right? Nothing against a guy, but you watch that video and you do go a bit, fuck, is he okay? Is he okay? It doesn't make sense, but watching that video, for me, I was like, it makes complete sense because you just. I don't know, you feel like you have to. To get over an emotion that you're feeling. You feel like you have to express it to an audience first to then get over yourself. Like, I'd cry in a video, put it out and be like, cool, I'm over it.

Yeah.

Weird mindset to be in, like, completely. But I think Joe's a great example of someone that's been through that mental health journey, and he's done it in a great way. I just feel like I didn't handle it personally the best way.

Yeah. Do you think when you were, like, living in London, living that, like, Mayfair life, et cetera, were you. Did you have people around you telling you, like, oh, you know, be careful of this, don't do this, et cetera? I mean, because obviously you've got a load of followers, people watching what you're doing. You're like, building a career online, which is very, very, very different, particularly for. Particularly at that age. Like, did you even care about that? Like, what I'm trying to say is, did you have, like, a business approach to it or were you just like a young guy and it seemed to be working you, there's money coming in and great, we'll figure out.

Yeah, that was. There was no strategy, bro. There was no strategy. It was like, wow, I've just made X amount by posting a picture of me and some sushi. Yeah, it was that, like, where I was, that level of, like, just had no awareness about me. Like, I didn't know what was going on. Yeah, it was a scary. I don't have to explain it.

Was there ever, like, a plan for I want to grow my brand to this?

For example, I definitely had people around me.

Or was it more just living in as it was like, day by day and we'll see what happens.

Yeah, it was day by day. I had some great people around me because at the time, I still had the brand. I saw the Oar very much my clothing brand, which I started when I dropped out. I had some great people around me. They gave me some great advice and could have set it up easy for me, but I didn't listen to them. Is that just it was an ego thing.

Yeah.

Because also I'm just not. I wasn't aware of where this was going to go. I was so shocked that my dream had become reality. I was just living it.

Yeah.

With no consequences. Do you know what I mean? That wasn't a plan. I wasn't like, oh my God. And I was aware that, okay, I need to get property, like if I'm gonna make this like a long time. But those, those goals, but they were materialistic.

Yeah. I think about that a lot myself. When I was at 21, I dropped out of uni. I started making money from econ, basically. And I look back now and think me, if someone had told me to invest that money instead of buying cars. And again, I don't regret any of it. But you know, coulda, woulda, shoulda. But it's kind of mad. You look back at how naive you were when you're a lot younger. And I think the exact same about my experiences, which may be similar, but different. And yeah, that's just how life goes. They can't really have regrets and you learn from it and you can feel wise looking back and yeah, it's just my. Because I had no plan really either. When I first died, being able to work myself, I was just, oh, this is great, I'm fucking.

Were you in that period though where you were like, this is sick. How long were you in that mindset for where it was like, oh my God, I've just made this much money, this is sick. Before going, okay, so what do I really want to do? What was that like? Crazy?

Probably like two years is when I was traveling full time before I moved to London.

Where'd you travel to?

A lot of like Southeast Asia, Australia, a lot of Europe, America, everywhere. Really. Yeah. It was mad looking back, to be fair here, probably like the best years ever, but didn't maybe didn't appreciate at the time.

Do you feel good in that stage? A good, good.

I think I felt a sense of wonder for the world and I was like, wow, I can go anywhere.

Almost like an invincibility thing.

Yeah. And I was probably. Yeah. I maybe had less. I probably thought less deeply about things and was just like living in the moment a bit more, which I wish I could do now more of. But it was also like maybe an element of ignorance is bliss and I wasn't thinking about long term things and I don't know, like everything felt yeah, crazy really looking back, I mean, that's the period I've logged a lot of, which is Quite cool. So I can watch that shit. But, yeah, I knew nothing really then compared to what I think I know now about the world and shit. But, yeah, I don't know. It's weird because time flies. You look back at when you're younger and think, that was. I mean, for me, that was like four years ago. I'm like, wow. Yeah, I felt like a instant.

It's too quick, bro.

But.

Do you think. Do you feel like you learn a lot in that period because of how you acted now? Do you feel like you didn't have that?

I mean, I definitely kept being a bit of an idiot a few years after that when I was living in London, but maybe an idiot in different ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Gets the best of you, right?

I feel like my brain only fully formed like last year or something. They say your brain forms at age 25, which is. Maybe it's true. Okay, but he's back again.

Yeah, but still.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you definitely learn a lot, I think. Yeah. Access to experiences and things when you're younger maybe accelerates life lessons in a way.

Were you doing it for you or were you doing it to impress people that you grew up with? That's just a question I'm interested in, personally.

Yeah. I mean, because I think a lot of people thought I was a bit of a flexi posy person on, like, Instagram and stuff. I didn't have, like, a personal brand or anything. It was literally just like me and. Well, on a very, very small scale, mate. Because people were intrigued what I did, but I wasn't putting, like, authentic content out, for example, like the podcast, so people. People could jump to conclusions. For example, oh, this guy's only posting this because, I don't know, he wants to look a certain way. Whereas actually for me, like, I was, like, buying those cars and shit when I was 10 years old. I was passionate about cars.

Yeah.

And maybe. And obviously there's an element of. I wanted. Maybe at the time I wanted girls to see it, which doesn't even help, by the way. You know, that's.

Doesn't change though, does it?

But, yeah, I think because I wasn't putting out any content like, you know, like the podcast people had. People can make their own assumptions and maybe people from school or whatever had negative assumptions about me and shit. And yeah, it's only in the past year when I started putting out more, I guess, articulate content around what I actually do and what I think and speaking to other people about it that I don't think you can really look at me that way. And I also don't really post the same sort of shit I used to because I'm a bit more conscious of try not trying to look like a dickhead in many ways.

Yeah. I think you do it well. Like, thank you. Do you feel like you had something to prove in that, like, era?

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Come on, you got this.

I can now. This dog is going crazy today. Apologies to anyone listening or watching.

Like, something to prove. Like, even I think that's what fueled me a lot. Feel like I had something to prove to everybody.

Yeah. Probably even like, my own parents in a way, because when I dropped out of uni, they were like, are you an idiot? And I was like, well, I. I don't think I am. But, you know, and maybe, yeah, like, flashing certain things is an opportunity to prove that. Whereas. Yeah, now that. Feel the need to do that as much, even though I still like a lot of that stuff. Always will.

But it's like a different sort of knowing in yourself. Right. Yeah.

I think it's just, like, maturity. You realize actually most of the stuff you put on on the Internet, you're probably doing deep down to impress people that you don't really care about. So now it's like, I probably care about way less people's opinions.

Yeah.

I care more about maybe those people's opinions.

It's a great place to be in, though.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know. I feel like somewhere I'm going very slowly as well.

Yeah. Because you said you want to be less known now.

I wouldn't say less. No, you said. Yeah. No, to a certain extent, I think.

Or do you mean you care less about maybe, like, the number of subscribers? Is that.

Yeah.

More about the substance of what you're doing?

I'm so, like, I feel like, as I said earlier, even though, like, back in the day, even at my peak, I was with people, my circle. I was a person had the least subs.

Yeah.

By far. By far. By far. And I was like, that didn't really matter to me genuinely. But I feel like now, regardless of the size of the channel I painted, I was still making content for that younger audience. I never felt like I was truly. That's the one thing that breaks nothing. Break my heart. But, like, the one thing about my YouTube, you could say, like, career, if it was a career. Like, I never felt like I was truly able to get across what I wanted to and who I actually was.

Is that because you'd built an audience around stuff that you used to Be interested in.

Yeah.

And you felt you had to keep doing that.

Yeah. Even to now where, like till last year, I'm still making the same content I was when I was 16. I don't want to sit. Apart from podcasts. I love this fight.

Yeah.

I don't want to sit for an hour for. I mean, I'm sat on my own. I don't want to talk about myself every week when I'm 21, 22. I've got real things going on now, like real that I don't want to sit and talk about with other people that I don't know anymore. I feel like it was great because I could connect back in the day. But yeah, as I said, like, it's disheartening because I feel like I never got what I wanted to across properly because of the whole mixture we were just on about. Like my head wasn't in the right place. It's a weird one. It's really hard to explain if that makes sense.

What happened in 2020 then? So you said that's peak YouTube.

Peak YouTube. Covid.

That felt like peak E Comm for me as well in many ways. Because Covid came around and it was great for E commerce and horrible for life in many ways. But yeah, how was that for you? So peak YouTube. But you say you got cancelled.

Yeah, man. Peak YouTube. It was great. It was great. But at the same time, like, I still felt like I didn't know what's going on. Like you just said the past year you finally, finally like came into yourself. You like found your feet. You felt like.

Right, still working out, but yeah, a little bit.

Oh, of course. This is a journey, bro. But I feel like looking back now, I was just doing it to tick over, but it was peak. If you want to think like numbers wise, that was a great peak. You could upload during COVID like two, three times a week. And I was seeing numbers and even like revenue off YouTube I've never seen before. And then this situation happens with a girl that I used to date. There's a lot more. The reason why I won't speak on it is because there's loads behind the scenes that I would Never ever show YouTube as well. She works here. I'm not going into names, just let you know.

Right.

But it was a decision that. I don't know, man. It's hard to explain if like people are listening and they know exactly the situation. It's a difficult one because there's stuff that went on behind the scenes that would. People would Understand where I was coming from by what happened, but I can't share. That's too much. Because I'm also. As a girl, right? If you're in a relationship online, you can't, as a guy, beef a girl. Doesn't work.

Yeah.

You can't breathe. You can't like. And also, why would you want to like. I feel like I got caught up in a crowd that have my best intentions at heart at the time, but a video was released of me and said person. And then that person went on a podcast and said that I sat and did this and released this video on my own.

Hmm.

Video wasn't bad, but it was just more the context of us two being together. And then.

Yeah, that must be crazy actually, because relationships are fucking hard anyway, let alone if they're aired online and potentially with the wrong side.

But the. Yeah, it was. It was a big mistake. For my part. I should have been more, like, aware that the damage that this video could do. It wasn't a bad video. It was a video of us, too. But, like, the damage of that being released, what that mean? And I think that said person went on a podcast and spoke about it in a way that, I don't know, like, fair play. But it was. I'll explain it. She went on and said that I've done this out of spite. I remember waking up in Devon with my mum, bro. I'm talking like 2, 300 dms that morning.

Well, like hateful dms.

Oh, bro. Yeah, mum's address, everything. Everything, bro. And that was like we were talking about earlier that. I feel like that, for me was. I remember I was sat in Devon with my mum, right? My mum's seeing this as well. It's horrifying, bro. I could explain to her that, like, everybody's gonna, like, know about this because the girl was quite big at what she does, right? So there's no hiding from it. I'm talking like school friends, industry friends. People in everybody is gonna look at me differently now. And it's my own fault. I mean, I just kind of had to sit there with thousands and thousands of comments. I think I lost 20k on insta over like a week. So many subscribers, people that actually like this. What I mean, so I've gone from being this vulnerable character that's tried to be honest with everybody, got lost in the source a little bit. And that one time, it's just ruined my whole credibility. But my intentions in that situation wasn't to hurt anybody. It's a complicated one.

Yeah, that's mad, actually, because I can relate to that in what happened with me with this neon brand. I mean, it's different, but I went from being an unknown founder to when that went tits up. I had the Daily Mail at my door.

The door.

That's how bad it got.

Talk to me about it.

Yeah, I mean, I shared a bit. Bit of this on episode one of the pod, but it's long gone now. But, yeah, long story short, you know, like 2 million quids worth of orders disappeared. It was not my fault and I got the blame. And everyone thought I was a scam artist because I had a driving Ferrari and people. There's a Facebook group dedicated to where my parents live. Pictures of my mum. I remember my mum calling me, crying, saying, what the fuck's going on? And that was the worst thing because I was like, firstly, you now probably think that I've done something wrong when I hadn't at all.

You'll convince everybody that you're.

So it was a combination of the business going tits up, but then actually my reputation being on the line and like, people from school probably thinking, oh, this guy's a fraud. And I was like, suicidal about it, genuinely. And it was horrendous. And I'm probably. I wasn't. I wasn't even used to him being in the public eye. I'd never had any hateful DM ever, like.

And now it's like, you're that guy.

There was a website dedicated to, like, me and it was like, pictures of me from school and shit.

How did you feel?

Some creeps out there. And that was the first time I realized how big scale that business had got. And it still exists now and everything got fixed and whatever. Just a long process, but. And it's probably the same for you in a way. Like, it's numbers on a screen, like subscribers, views, whatever. For me it was like revenue numbers, customers. And you don't really realize, in many ways, I didn't realize naively, kind of think about them as being real people until it went tits up. And then it was a lot of real people that wanted me to answer to them.

Yeah.

So that was a horrendous time when.

You say, because this is gonna get deep regardless. Like, this is a mad topic in general because I don't think people cool. I think people should be cancelled if they've stepped out of line, they've done something that you can't come back from. The cancel culture is tapped. Like, people want you gone, even if you're doing well.

Yeah, I Think, particularly in the uk, it's like Tall Poppy syndrome.

It's hot. It's actually vile. Like people. You said you were suicidal, right? Pretty much, yeah.

Literally, like, that's how bad it go. I mean, I've always struggled with my mental health anyway. Same.

Yeah.

I'm just. I've been way too honest about that. Arguably on the pod, but just is what it is, I think. I think, and I think a lot of entrepreneurial and creative people are maybe more susceptible by default to ups and downs, mentally, emotionally. I certainly am. I always flippantly say that my mind is my greatest gift, but biggest curse, because it allows me to think a lot and be creative and come up with, you know, build businesses, whatever. But also I'm then, you know, the architect of my own fucking problems that maybe don't exist half the time. Like we were saying before, like, I'll create situations that don't exist because that's just the way my mind works. But I can also create things that didn't exist, which can be great.

Look at this. So I. I hear that a lot and I think it's a. Like you said, it's a blessing and a curse, like, as much as that situation that you spoke about. The situation I spoke about. Without that, we wouldn't have the product and the lifestyle and amazing things we've, like, been able to experience.

Yeah.

But when that moment comes, it's rock bottom. Like, actual rock bottom.

That's absolutely how I felt. Yeah.

Like, mentally, you're sat there and you're like. Especially in. In this situation. I just explained, like, I know I was guilty, but I wasn't as guilty as made out to be. I think that's the best way to explain it. So I'm sat there, bro, like, crying my eyes out, to be honest. Just sat at the beach with my mum, mate. Like, embarrassing moment, because you feel mortified. You feel like you've got to explain yourself to everybody.

Right.

It's what you're on about. Just then you feel like you've got to explain. I made videos, bro, with me sat there, like, trying to, like, fight it. Never uploaded it. Can't fight it, bro.

That's why I did the first podcast, really. Like, ultimately it was when the dust had settled. I just wanted to speak about what happened.

Do you feel that was a great outlet for you, mentally?

And I was really scared to put that up because I'd never really put content up, particularly that sort of type. But then actually I had like a thousand messages saying, wow, that was like the most powerful thing I've ever listened to because I've gone through something on, you know, loads of people go through on smaller scale, different scale, whatever, but most people don't share it. And I think that's the biggest problem with social media. And it's maybe starting to change because people are seeing through the. But life isn't all rainbows, mate.

It's not.

But the problem with, like, marketing and, you know, building a personal brand or brand in general is, like, by default, you know, you want to share your best side. Of course you do. Like, I don't post pictures of me fucking feeling shit on Instagram. Maybe I should. But, you know, we all post our best version, our highlight. Yeah, but it's pretty damaging if people don't. If people never share the other side.

We can get caught up in that too. Like you said, it's a balance. Like, yeah, it's good to show that you can be vulnerable, but it's difficult, bro. It's difficult. It's difficult to be like, I'm not good, bro. Especially online, like, because obviously we both have different circles, but our network is on net worth, right?

Yeah.

So, like, you know that when you're sharing it, these important people or this people are gonna see it and it's gonna. It's a hard battle. But I feel like what I've learned from this situation, being vulnerable, like, you said that first podcast people will respect that. The honest version of yourself ten times more than this animated character that.

Yeah.

You're meant to be seen as. I mean, and I think that's the most important thing. Like, yeah, you go on social media for ages. Like, the topic's huge when it comes to mental health and, like, comparisons and like, all these different things. But, yeah, man, it's heavy. It's heavy. Where do you feel like, for you, that we were talking about. Okay, so last year, you feel like, obviously. Can we talk about the situation we were on about?

Yeah. I'm gonna get cancelled by my own viewers for speaking about this again, but go on.

Okay, we'll brush past it. But do you feel like. Do you share much of that online?

Firstly, I haven't the pod. Yeah. Really not on my Instagram, anything.

Okay. Do you feel like that was really, like, when did you realize you were, like, coming into yourself? Because it's still a journey, like we said. But, like, when did you go? Okay, like, now. I've been through this, this and this and this. This has, like, shaped me to, like.

Well, yeah, in, like, in a nutshell, I Feel like I. From like the age of like 20 to 20 to like 24, things felt like they almost went perfectly for me in every single way.

Okay.

Like, I felt like I had everything. Like I was making loads of money, I had access to go where I wanted, you know, living in my dream place at the time, had really good friends, all this sort of. And I probably need. And I'm probably a bit of an arrogant cunt. I think like Peak 2020 was that you're like, I had more money coming in than ever. Like. Yeah, just. Yeah, I mean, maybe just like still working really hard. You know, I built it myself. But yeah, looking back now, I was probably a bit naive on certain things. And then, yeah, went through like my first big L. I guess at scale.

It felt like an L at the time.

Yeah. Now in many ways I feel like it's kind of like a blessing in disguise, which took her a long time to view it that way, but. Yeah. And then like a few things changed in my personal life and all that sort of shit. And then I think that was like the perfect time to get on, to get into a better place again, which I definitely have over like the last nine months, like massively. Like, I mean, you said it and we'd only met once, but like a lot of other people, my own mates have said, fucking hell. Like, I didn't recognize you from a year ago.

Yeah, I met you nine months ago. We met our roast.

Yeah.

And I think you showed me. I said, oh, would you do was chat and having roast dinner.

Yeah. I was in a very different headspace then because I felt like I was a nobody again because my confidence had just gone so much.

I could tell you.

But even though I've done loads of cool shit and I was still, you know, statistically still very successful for like my age and stuff. It's just that the. The knock on effects of like what happened in the previous year, basically 2021, like the start of 2021 and then following on from that, like my fucking relationship breaking down at that time. It's just a lot of things at once. Yeah.

But I can tell there's a different energy with you now, the way you hold yourself. Jamie.

Yeah. I think about to earn like self respect again by proving. By proving that I can go up and fucking. Yeah. I think the hardest thing in life is like losing momentum and then getting knocked and then having to build back.

Up again and facing that and being. I think it's the acceptance, that moment when you realize, like, we have to face Whatever you got, whether it's a breakup from your ex or it's a business gone wrong or you've been called this online. Like, there's a moment where you go, we sit with it, you face it and you go, like, this could eat me up. Or I can change everything.

Yeah.

And after that, like, other side of that, that you kind of come into yourself a little bit more maybe.

Yeah. I think it gives you character.

Like, definitely does. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I almost don't trust people that have, like, say they've like, never been through, like, bad shit because they've either had. They've either been like. What's the term? Like, they've been too. That haven't been exposed to any, like, real life, or they're just lying because, yeah, it's like you. Nothing's enjoyable if you enjoy everything. Right. And, like, you can't have, like, good times without bad times and shit. But it's so true.

Yin and yang.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

And like, granted, I don't want to have as bad times as that, but there's always ups and downs, like, even now, of course. And as there is for everyone.

But I think, as you said, like, people that haven't been through something and there's no depth there, it's quite terrifying, right?

Yeah.

Like, because I feel like even those people that haven't experienced anything, they've had to really, like, sit and face or go through it. There will be a time you can't hide from those emotions, like, in general, but when it does hit you that even friends I've seen, like, I don't know if the same with you. I feel like for me personally, my, like, big reality check was previous to YouTube, during YouTube as well. Like, but as you said, it builds character and you kind of. It's. I think understanding yourself a lot more through trauma is a great thing. Sounds really tight to say. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But I feel like without the things that we've had to face, maybe us two past two years, if that didn't happen, I'll still be in a position that it was beforehand, just ticking along. Yeah, everything's great.

How do you think you reacted to that then? Did you change a lot? As in, like, that you go from, as you, like, said, Peak YouTube time to then getting cancelled. Like, did that, like, change, like, the views you were getting? Did that, like, change the business of YouTube for you? Everything and then every angle?

Yeah, it was. It wasn't just views, relevance. It was like money.

It was everything.

It was but even, like, personally, bro, like, it was the biggest reality check I've ever had.

Yeah.

Because not saying, like, oh, everything's ticking along, like, this could last forever. It was like, now, like, this is disposable, that you can disappear tomorrow if you want to.

Yeah, Yeah, I felt that.

Do you know what I mean? It's that looking over the cliff moment. You're like, now this is terrifying. I think you go into. You start questioning a lot more. You're not naive to these things anymore. Instead of, like, when that situation happened, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, yeah, that video can go on. Like, whatever. Like, you start realizing, like, these things have consequences. You, like, see everything for what it is a little bit more. It's terrifying, bro.

Terrifying.

Like, and as you said, when it involves your family.

Yeah.

Scary times. It's a scary time because it's also like, I don't know, the Internet's a scary place and it's all good. Making money from us, you know, it's a blessing.

But, yeah, I was listening to. It was a podcast. Stephen Barlow and the Coinbase guy or something, and he was talking about the concept. Not the concept, but just talking about, you know, if you have a million people seeing something, you know, whatever it is, business, YouTube, you only need 1% of those people to be, like, a bit crazy. And then that's like 10,000 people. Then you need 1% of those 10,000 to be, like, an actual psychopath. And then you have a hundred psychopaths, and they're probably the people that, you know, make the Facebook page or send you your mum's address on this sort of shit.

Terrifying.

So it's like, that is the scary thing about the Internet.

Yeah. And especially at scale. It's human nature, though, right? Like, you get a thousand great comments and 10bad ones, but you're gonna remember the bad ones and forget the good ones.

Yeah.

Just the way it works, like, we're. We find comfort, right, In. We find comfort in being sad. It's comfy, right? When those things happen, like those big situations, you want to sit and you want to cry and you want to be that. Like, why is this happening to me? It's comfy. Eat bad junk foods.

Yeah.

Disappear. I mean, and just. It's easy. But I think the hardest part, but it's the most rewarding part, is that we've been talking about. It's just like, facing that and just like, how can I overcome it? What would that look like? Like, we spoke about running earlier. That, like we said about. In the lift running was like, my biggest fear. I was a big kid, Jamie. So, like, the fact of even seeing myself run was like a weird fact. Yeah. And I think even, like, same thing, like, other side of fear. Such a beautiful thing, like, rewarding as well. And I think getting past that, like, first bit. Same with the cancel stuff you just got, man, come back from it sort of thing.

How did you pivot then after all that?

Well, after the 2020 situation.

Yeah. I mean, well, I guess not necessarily pivot, but, like, what did you change to, like, get on with stuff? Because you mentioned YouTube became less or has become less of a priority. Was it after that?

It was after that, yeah. It wasn't a. It was just like a. I sat with it for a month. My management were amazing, bro. Like, facts. They're like, no. Like, okay, what would do. My management would go to. To be completely honest, I'm still with them now. Big up gemflow. They were just like, right, okay, so what do you want to do? Like, what do you actually want to do? I was like, cool. I'm passionate about fashion, the music stuff. They're like, right, okay, so we're gonna position your content in this way. And it. It kind of felt like I was maturing finally instead of like, making content for 16 year olds. When I'm 21 years old, it felt like I could be myself and I could be like, post what I wanted to, but still connect with the same audience, but without that, bro. Yeah, but I think since then, the people that have kind of, like, stuck with it get it, and I'm thankful for that. But, yeah, that was the pivot for me, that management, a big help. I think even personally, meditation was a big thing facing these things. Like, it's like a self, like a proper journey. Like, okay, like, as we spoke about earlier, I spent my whole life doing this. Then I got canceled. I can step, like, step back now and be like, okay, but what do I want to do? How do I make myself feel better? Do you know what I mean? So I think since that moment, the past two years have been, what do I like doing? How do I feel good again? And like, what do I actually want to be doing and share with the Internet? And it's been like a 180 moment. What about yourself after that situation I saw you in at that roast dinner because you had the spacegood website. I remember that.

Yeah, I started working on that.

But, like, what was a moment where you're like, you felt it the most and then you decided to make the Change.

Oh, probably like November 2021.

Okay.

Because that was like. Yeah. I actually filmed a video of myself just being like, oh, this. Because I was living by myself. My ex girlfriend had moved out, which is my doing. Right decision, but still rough. And I wasn't actually working on anything. For the first time in ages, I had like a blank slate. Like, I didn't have to work and I didn't have to like go and get a job or anything. It wasn't that bad. But yeah, I was like, I don't have any goal right now really. So I had to like, figure out what the next thing was. And that's probably why I started the pod on the side and then I started like building that sort of in public with the new brand and. And then I gradually got into running and shit because I was like half ass in the gym. So I used to be really in great shape for, like years. I used to be rowing for, like nine years and then I just lost all that probably because of my previous relationship and just that was going on there. But, yeah, just started getting momentum again and I was like, all right, pod, new business. Yeah, get in good shape.

Do you think fitness is a big thing that like helped especially confidence?

Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, it's like meditation for me. And I don't know why I. I like slacked on it a lot in previous years through covered. Because looking back, I was like a bit chubby. I was never like, fat. But looking back now I was like, fucking. I look a lot better now and then. Yeah, I just got addicted to it. Like, running was the new thing. I never used to be into that. I was like, oh, I'm not a runner.

Isn't it?

You should hurt my legs, hurt my knees.

Huh?

You said it's really hurt. And then I was like, oh, this is like meditation. Because I tried meditating before and trying to be more mindful and shit, but then I've always liked, like heavy exercise and I really pushed myself and then I started to just look a lot better and feel a lot better. And yeah, I think it's just discipline. It's a big start with anything. It gives you a, like a tangible goal that you can see, like quick results in, particularly running, I think, rather than just going to the gym and lifting weights. And you don't need it, you don't spend money on it. You don't have to. Anyone can do it. Exactly, exactly. So there's no excuse and you can do it anywhere. So now a bit of a running addict. I don't know how long this will last after I've done this marathon, but.

Sick. By the way, congrats. That's it.

Yeah. So I started to just. I was. Anything I do, I was like it. I'm gonna try and be really good at it, so.

But it's applying that same mindset you've learned from the business stuff.

Yeah.

Fitness, I guess.

Yeah, exactly.

Pushing that. Like, like you said, there's no excuse. Do it, like send it. But I think it's that after period, like when you've. When you've completed that task that six months ago, like 5K, run for me, bro. It was a myth.

Yeah.

Everyone's doing that in Covid.

Yeah.

I was too scared to even go, bro. Just leave the house to do a 5K. Because I knew mentally I thought, you can't do that. I never tried it.

Yeah.

But now like last week, I'll still run 5k, but we do like 4 or 5 times a week.

Yeah.

And it's like I'll look back and be like, mate, a year ago, that was the most terrifying thought in my headspace. I didn't find it difficult the first time I did it. It's that mental thing, I think. And that now comes out in business and it comes out in these other things. I think it's the primary, like lesson that I have to practice every day that makes everything easier for me. Gentle. I mean, like that self reflection thing. And like you said about the way you look at yourself, like running. If you feel like, I don't know, you starting to look better or whatever, however you want to label it. That confidence is like. It's the best feeling, bro.

Yeah. Especially when you earn it because you have. The thing about being in shape is you can't buy it.

Can't buy it.

You just have to grind and be consistent. And then I read David Goggins book Can't Hurt Me. For the best book I've ever read.

I need to read that. I love him.

I like it just like so powerful. And I'm not much of a reader. I really wish I was more. But just something about it just resonated with me. I was like, wow, he's a savage. Yeah. Like just the fact he's. Because I'm definitely like driven more by like negative emotions. Like almost like, fuck you, I'll do it sort of thing.

I love that.

I've always been driven in from that sort of. I don't know where it comes from. Maybe that's really bad. But Goggins is A lot like that. So I see a lot of my mindset in that.

But that's amazing because it's like, you know that anything you face now, you can change that around. I mean, you can use that. I feel shit this has happened. You can use that emotion to improve yourself and feel better. And that's a technique that I wish I could have learned during this first period of like going through the bullshit and having to. I didn't know that that could be a thing like. That makes sense.

Yeah, definitely. What the fuck is this? Space goods spacegoods.com Rainbow Dust version 1. My newest entrepreneurial econ brand venture. I spent six months in the trenches building this shit from scratch. We launched six weeks ago. What's it all about? The next generation wellness brand with a long term vision to essentially consumerize the pending psychedelic consumer goods market. Which might sound absolutely ridiculous. We're not quite there yet. The market's massively illegal. But what is this? Rainbow dust version 1 is an all in one mushroom and adaptogenic blend designed to unlock your supernatural self. Essentially experience a sharper focus, sustained energy, zen like calm throughout the day. It's an all in one powder. Tastes like fucking hot chocolate. Tastes delicious, works great, looks great, feels amazing. Essentially the broader concept here was to legally imitate a psychedelic microdose and like I said, experience those symptoms. You can mix it with anything, brownies, bake brownies with it, mix it with your coffee, have it without coffee, replace your coffee, put it into a protein shake. It's super fucking versatile, it tastes great. It replaced the stack of supplements I was previously taking. But you need to try this shit. It would definitely change the way you work, get you into that deep workflow. I obviously think that myself. Plenty of our thousand plus first customers think the exact same shit. It's not just a pretty packaging, it actually works really fucking well. Keto, vegan, all that good shit. Trust me, you need to try it for yourself. Let's scale this shit to the moon. Spacegoods.com get on your rainbow Dust subscription and see how you fucking feel. Do it for the boys. Spacegoods.com. Right, I want to bring it back to you because I feel like I'm fucking butting in way too much and trying to be philosophical.

I'm enjoying it though.

But yeah, how does the day to day of a youtuber slash musician slash fashion entrepreneur look like now then?

Very different. Very different. So yeah, like the music thing itself, would you want to start with that? Actually, day to day, Right. So at the moment I Got model agency in London that it's just like a side job thing. So doing a bit of modeling here and there. Still working on the fashion brand. So there's. Those two are big things at the moment. They bring me the most happiness. I'd say writing music, it's a great outlet. And then there's the fashion thing. But at the moment it's like wake up, run. That's why my mindset the past month it's like train first thing. I feel like everything else after that feels a lot easier. If you have that like difficult 30 minutes in the morning and it's split between going to the studio. Maybe I've got a shoot or a test shoot. It's a juggling act at the moment, making sure I'm still uploading. I haven't done great over the past two weeks, but keeping the YouTube ticking. Like I'm just being more honest again. Like we're speaking about. I've got a video going out next week that talks about basically what we've been talking about. Just like I'm going back to just making content. I want to do less stress, less film. What my life actually looks like now.

Yeah.

So, yeah. Split between those three. So I would be in Birmingham, which is like where the main studio is, where we record our music. And then there's the fashion stuff, which is more like meetings. And we have an office in London. I go and visit and then apart from that, it's like Tick Tock. So like making Tick Tock videos and just like that's a whole another world that.

Yeah.

I don't know if you're too like on that. On that.

I really should be. I delete deleted Tick Tock off my phone. I mean, I'm trying to do it for the brand now. Obviously you're doing some stuff with Finn and the other guys for Space Kids recently.

Love that.

We'll see how that comes out. Because I'm starting to feel like I'm too old to like natively understand Tick Tock the first platform. I felt that way. But Instagram was always my go to with like previous businesses and stuff. And it still is in terms of Instagram ads and all that. But Tick Tock's the new kid on town on the block.

It is. And it's like everything else.

Yeah. It's crazy.

But yeah. So it's just split between those. Bro. Meditate every day. I say every day, every other day. It's a great balancer.

I really. I've tried starting that many times. I tried it in the sauna, I guess the sauna every day.

It's good in the sauna, but I. Bro, before you go to bed, 10 minute meditation. 10 minute guided meditation. You put your earphones in, you just lay there, you have to do anything, just listen. And I think it makes everything feel smoother. You're not. That voice in your head isn't so loud throughout the day. So I think that's really important. I like to say I do every day, but there is days I don't and you feel it. But yeah, it's kind of like I'm trying to do that self progress thing, invest time in myself now. Do you know what I mean? Like I said, I want to pick your brains on the econ world because I feel like I have this. I've been on socials now for like seven years. I understand like the whole like algorithm side to that.

Yeah.

But because I don't want to be so like active, like personally with it. I want to try and learn how to use the algorithm to do product stuff instead of myself.

So yeah, just like to build brands off the back of your personal brand rather than focus on yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

A lot of influencers, YouTubers, I see kind of pivoting, which is obviously where businesses like GenFlow have come in to help creators build businesses and they create it. Yeah.

To be fair, which is good. But yeah, I think as we were just speaking about, like, what do I want to do? Like what makes me feel good? I'm still working out, so a long way to go.

I still work now.

It's a beautiful thing, like getting one step closer every single day and just feeling like, okay, so I really enjoyed this today. This made me feel great. I think gratitude is a big thing as well that I try and practice every day because without it, I don't know, scary. But I think that's, that's like I've just like word vomited. That's what my wee looks like.

Yeah.

Apart from seeing friends and I'm quite lucky. Like my friends probably like yours, like your econ friends. Yeah, like your own mates that get it. You got mates from home that you can go back, but the conversation is different and that's valuable as well because you need people around you that you're just gonna laugh with.

Yeah, very true.

But yeah, like hanging out with people that get the struggle of running a business and this isn't the, I mean.

The constant e comm anxiety of things going up and down, up and down.

It's an anxiety thing.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think it's just like, I'm currently in that, like, progressive period for myself at the moment.

Do you know where you want to be in like, five years, or do you think that far ahead?

I like to try to. Property is something that. It was always like, oh, you need to get property. You need to do this. YouTube's not gonna last forever. God. Okay. I don't know if it's like a. As valuable thing now, but it's definitely something I want to get into. I feel like a lot of my friends are now getting onto that property thing and Got my first property the other day, which was cool.

Yeah, I saw that.

So it's like, okay. So I'm just trying to lay some foundations down to like, make the next five years smoother because I think the worry of the fluctuation of being online and that being a business is terrifying. Probably like ecom.

Yeah.

Like, your mood is literally the same as your.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Jesus Christ. It's very, very true.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the ride you sign up for, I guess, when you an entrepreneur, whether that's, you know, creating content, creating brands, whatever it is, or both. And yeah, it can be very rewarding but also very stressful. But I'd rather do that than sell my soul to the man and, you know, do it for someone else.

Exactly.

Because I can never do that.

Because the stories and, like, the value, like, bro, like, nothing beats it. Right. I think for people our age, like, the things we've experienced, like, I don't know, like, my parents have never experienced. Some of the things that I've managed to be so lucky to see live. I don't know about yourself, like, yeah, it's crazy. But then the next five years is also like, do I want to go back to. I used to work in a pub, like. Like three years. Like, that's a big fear for me. It's like going back to the cancellation.

That's interesting, actually. So. Because some people said this on the pod as well, and they said, like, I don't know if that's what you mean in. But like, they're kind of. They're driven by worried. Worried that it will all go away and they'll have to go back and get, you know, a normal job or whatever it is. I've never even worried about that, even when shit was actually going wrong.

I watched your pod today. Used to work at Waitrose, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fucking hell. Shit. But I had loads of shit jobs.

Did you, like, were you thinking. Because this is what I Did when I used to work. Every single day I think about what I want to be doing. When you're at Waitrose doing your stacking of shelves, were you thinking about the life that you want to live?

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing about gratitude and like sometimes you need to get perspective on how far you've come, which is very easy to lose and gets very normal. Yeah, like, because, I mean, I just had a normal upbringing, like went to state school, middle class family. But probably like most people statistically. Yeah, the last job I ever had was when I was in uni working at a burger bar and I used to run Facebook ads on my break with my 50 pound savings and then the rest is history. But yeah, that's it. I guess you don't realize how far you've come until you look back and it's obviously cliche and whatever, but it's quite powerful, I think, particularly when you're like self made and shit and weren't born into whatever, which most people are as in most people are self made genuinely.

But it's always, it's always a complete cycle. I feel like the cycle. This is what we're speaking about. Before the cameras went on the Ferrari story. Oh yeah, because I said to you, I was like, because I, like, like I said earlier, I was always, when I get that car, when I get that watch, when I finally buy the house. Said this to my boy the other day, he was like, you're 22, you just bought a flat, how's it feel? I dreamt this moment for five years. Doesn't feel like it's real. I'm like, what's next? So it's like, when you bought that.

Car.

Did you have a dream of what that moment would be like? When you were doing the whole Waitrose thing, then it got set, what was the difference like? And I'm sure people at home as well were like, what's it like to buy a Ferrari?

Yeah, I mean it sounds like cars were always my thing when I was younger, but I had had nice cars before that. Like, you know, I didn't go from no car to a Ferrari. So I guess in that sense it wasn't so sudden. Like I'd had like, I'd had an AMG Mercedes before. I had an M4 BMW, then an Audi R8, twice on a Range Rover, all this. I had loads of shit and then I got a fucking Ferrari, which is probably the most silly one. But that was. Yeah, I said this before. I think I probably got more joy from Buying a Mini when I was 20, that was like two grand or something. I remember it. Than buying that fucking Ferrari. Because at that point, and this is like the dangerous thing about achieving goals in a way, particularly material ones, because they're very fleeting, is that the bar gets higher and higher and then your. Your standard for any form of satisfaction can be dangerously high. And, like, I was in Mykonos the other week and I made a. Like, I'm doing this, like, weekly document in building this brand. It's kind of like a vlog, I guess. It is a vlog. And I actually was in a really weird headspace. I was. I was in Soho House in Mykonos, this beautiful place. It's a fucking Tuesday morning. I'm sat on my laptop working. I don't have to be anywhere now. I've got plenty of money to do this for however long. And I just wasn't happy, honestly. It was. I was a bit like, it's kind of really weird feeling because I hadn't felt like that when I'd been in such a beautiful place before. I was like, what's going on here? Like, I wasn't necessarily unhappy, but I was just like, why am I not enjoying this that much?

Nothing filled the hole, right?

Yeah. And I started. So I think I said in the video, like, it's because I'd maybe got so used to just going away and, like, being able to the. But, you know, and it's a bit scary because then it's like, oh, if. If the things that you used to want to do can't even give you joy, then what does give you joy? And, like, I'm so. I'm kind of trying to figure that out because, I don't know, it's kind of worrying.

But there's obviously levels to everything, the journey, right?

Like, there's obviously levels to everything, but.

Yeah, the goals change, Right?

Yeah. I think my goals are less physically tangible now. I mean, or certainly less materialistic. Like, my financial goals are probably bigger than they were before, but it's for different reasons. It's more for, like, oh, so I can look after my future family or, you know, my parents, rather than buy a fucking watch and a silly car so I can look cool.

Yeah, I rate that, though. And I think it's very important, like, because as much as we talk about this, because your materialistic goals that you've achieved are very different to mine. Right. Very different scale. But I feel like you can never teach that.

Yeah. I think you have to go through that.

Yeah.

Everyone has to go through. Yeah.

Because it's all. It's all well and it comes back to that home. Like, searching validation from other people all the time. Like, okay, like this. Like, even the whole ego desire thing, like this thing. I've got tattoos on my arm.

It's like. Like I'm thinking about getting first tattoo now.

Do it, bro.

Because I finally got to the age where I feel like I could make it a considered choice. Whereas in the past, my taste would change too much on cars, let alone tattoos.

Let alone tattoos.

So that's why I never got one.

I hear that.

So many people have said to me, you like the sort of person that would have 20 tattoos, because I'm quite a loose cunt. And I. I don't know.

But I never have if there's real meaning behind the tattoo.

Because you have loads.

Yeah. So the things on my arms have been, like, either moments or big things in my life. Obviously, there's an eggy bread there.

I didn't see you.

It's like, lol. That's jokes. But to me, that has, like, a really, like, a significant meaning. Sounds good. But, like, my leg, like, it's all jokes. Like, it's my mate's brand logo. That's my makes merch logo.

Yeah.

That's my friends. This lives in Dubai at the moment. Just like, jokes, little things in Comic Sans. But, like, arms wise needs to make sense, bro. If it's something you really can't forget, you won't regret, do it. But just let you know you get one and then you'll get. You look like me at, like a year.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? But it's cool, man.

Like, it's where I'd get it. Maybe like the inside of my arm or something so cliche like J. Alvarez or some bullshit.

Do some J. Albert shit. The thing is, is, like, I'm at this point now where I need to keep going, otherwise it's gonna look weird because I take my T shirt off, I look like I've just got drawings on my arm.

Yeah.

I mean, right? So it's like, oh, God, it's a downward spiral. But tattoos are cool.

Yeah.

If you know what you're getting. Like, you can't. My mom used to say to me, I actually did it not maybe for a year. She said, draw something out that you really want to get put on the fridge for a year if you still want it in a year.

Is that what you've done?

Nah, Mine was like a free. I do it, though. I did do It.

Yeah.

Shout out, Mumsy. I actually got my mum tied on my arm, you know.

Oh, picture of that.

Shout Sue.

Yeah, that's for a video as well.

Tattoo roulette.

Oh, shit.

But then it's because it's my mum. I can't be. I regret that, man.

Yeah.

It's bash. Be harsh if I do that, but I think it's just hilarious. Like, I don't know. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

You make me feel like I should see my parents more.

I'll take that. Give me a good thing I don't.

Speak to them or visit them enough.

Huh?

I don't speak to them or visit them enough, probably.

Really?

We don't speak to my parents enough.

Enough. Every situation is different, man. Like growing up out of weird. The experience that kind of like, oh, man, it's trauma. But main point being it. That's the reason why I'm so close to my mum because of those situations. Like, otherwise, like, people kind of find it weird that I'm so close to my mom. It's like a best friend thing.

Yeah.

But it's because of that's happened. Do you know what I mean? Like, it makes sense. But if you. Yeah. Check in with the man.

Yeah, I definitely should. I got a twin brother as well. Non identical twin. We're the complete opposite. Yeah. Twin. Yeah. Just nothing like each other.

Did you go on?

Probably better now than we used to.

Fair play.

Because I was like, oh, we did share a womb. Maybe I should speak to him more.

Maybe we should go for a drink.

Yeah. It's interesting though, because we are an interesting case of we have the exact same upbringing. Like the same genes. Granted, not the exact same. So identical twins, but. And we have such different worldviews on everything. I would love to know where that came from. If that's even common or not in twins. I don't know.

Yeah. I was a. So that's what this tattoo is for. I was a twin, but my twin didn't make it.

Oh.

Yeah. So I kind of hit. Not. I hear that I didn't experience it, but like, it's a weird comparison in your head because you're like, as you said, shared a womb. Why don't we get on?

Yeah. Oh, I used to get compared so much I hated it. That's probably. Probably partly why I like rebelled against the system. I was like, I want to be different to him, which is fair play.

And look what you are now, which is sick. But at the same time, there's. There's Always, like, it's always going to come around and like, regardless if you go off your separate ways or like you don't get on. I've got a weird relationship with siblings, parents, whatever, but it always comes back to that moment where it makes sense again. Again. I feel like personally that there'll be a moment where, look, you've got your journey, you're doing your thing. Maybe he's doing his thing, but it'll come back round and it'll make sense. I mean, and you'll sit down and be like, great, I get it now.

Yeah.

I think I don't know your situation obviously, but yeah.

Yeah, I hope so. Now, of course.

Just check in, man.

I have to get him on the pod.

I'd watch it, bro. I think it'd be really interesting. How was it? Obviously same age and he.

Yeah. So I reckon it'd be quite boring on here, but get a few drinks down and.

What's his name?

James.

James. Getting a podcast, man.

Yeah, he's an. He's an engineer at Rolls Royce. I used to be just something like that.

Not just any engineer.

Yeah. He's very different to me, but very smart. Yeah.

I love that, man. I love that. And that's important. Yeah. Checking in and that's one thing as well. Like, I know we're just jumping off topic to topic at this point.

It's good.

But I think checking in, it's something I've been like, trying to be like, aware of a lot more like reaching.

Out to what was like mates as well, everybody.

It's something I. When we're talking about that ego year ahead. Mmm. Like I lost everyone. I just distant. I didn't know who the fuck I was. I mean, so now I'm like, I will make sure I check in everybody as much as I can, of course. But like, yeah, man, I just don't want to get to a point in my life where I had so many great friends. Yeah.

Do you know, one thing I've really realized and like, seems obvious but like started to click. Maybe it's one thing I was thinking about when I decided I wasn't getting joy from like, material things, whatever. Basically came to the conclusion that everything is shit unless you're doing it with people you care about or just with people, but particularly people you care about. You could be, I don't know, in the. A seven star hotel in the most beautiful resort in the world if you're by yourself. It's fact.

Will Smith said something like this and it's a quote that's very similar.

Like, it's like. So yeah, I've got a few experiences like that when I've been in really cool places or doing. In fact, one of them was when I was driving that car. I actually remember writing a note in my iPhone. I stopped and I was like, wow, I feel really sad. Why do I feel sad? Because I'm doing it by myself. Yeah, no one cares. Like, yeah. If you're not sharing an experience with anyone, the experience usually unless it's like you meditating or whatever. But yeah, it's true. It's not just not. Doesn't have the same.

It's completely different. That one quote I live with always. I'm not really a quote person either. I'll be honest. Like a lot of them, I'm like, us. Cool. But like, one thing that really stood out for me is like Will Smith. What guy, by the way?

Yeah, what?

King. He's like the only true happiness. As in like an emotion that you'll feel. Like the only true feeling of happiness you'll ever get is when you're helping other people. And at first I was like, it doesn't make sense. But there's the experiences like we just spoke about. If you bought that Ferrari for your brother, that feeling of like, excitement, you know, I mean like, I'm not saying go and buy him a Ferrari, but I'm saying like little things, like sharing experiences. This seven. What, five star hotel is great, but I get to share that emotion with someone. It's. It feels empty. And I think that's. Yeah. Like buying a watch. If you bought someone that you really care about, a family member, a watch, it's a different feeling to you wearing it every day.

Yeah, that's very true. I did a personality test. I don't know if you've ever done one. Oh, the 16 personalities calm. There's a few.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With the leprechauns and shit.

Yeah. And I was like an FJ protagonist and I did it like three times every year and I always got the same results. It was like, pretty consistent. I mean, maybe it's like one of those star sign things that, you know, it's relatable to everyone because you're in that mindset. But yeah, I read it and it was so accurate. One of the things, it was like you get a lot of pleasure, like being generous to people or whatever. And I was, ah, I definitely do because I probably. Even though, ironically, I never bought my brother a fucking car and shifts for me. But like, yeah, I can see why Will Smith said that because I think that's probably why. I think I mentioned this in a poll I did last night. That's probably why I'm so. I've like I'm so. I'm motivated by money and shit. But it's probably more so I can like give it to other people or maybe not give it to other people, but share experiences and like provide for other people. I like my family or whatever, my future family that exists yet.

That's the real motivation, bro.

That's it, yeah. Actually break it down cuz there's only so many like cars you can buy or whatever.

But it's true, like little things like this sounds so weird. I don't know if you'll rate me saying this but like me and my brother have a weird relationship. Right. Love the boy to pieces. But I remember it wasn't too long ago he like drove me up to Bristol to get the train back up to London and his car broke down and it was like 300 quid, 400 quid. I saw his face, man.

Be like.

And to be able to be like, bro, here it is. Sort it, keep the rest, you know what I mean? That was better than hitting 100k subs 200k subs 300k subs by my first rolex like everything, bro, just, just being like cool sorted. Genuinely like that feeling for me was just like wow.

Yeah.

And I know it seems cliche and so like airy fairy, but genuinely like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not saying like go and like split your bank account in half and just go give it out.

No, it's very true. Where do you think you get most like fulfillment from now then in terms of what you're doing? Because that's what I'm trying to work out. It's a hard question because I've been like scaring myself by like I said, like recently I was in Mykonos and I realized I wasn't actually happy being there. And I was like, wait a minute, I need to work on the shit that like fulfills me because there's a long road of life ahead.

And what fulfills you right now? Name three things that you feel like when you've done that thing. You feel good in yourself.

Doing a hard ass run is probably one of them. And like finishing it, going through pain, getting it. Yeah, that's probably one thing. Like I like doing the pod because I like having conversations. I think that's.

You leave feeling like, yeah mate, sick. This Is sick.

Well, I feel like conversations like the, like the lost human art form of some. Because everyone's just on the phone all the time. And that's why I refuse to do it online as well.

Okay.

Because I don't want it to be another online thing, even though it posts online. But the experience of doing it has.

To be real because it's like, it's the whole thing of we feel like we can connect so easily by social. We feel like we're connecting all the time.

Yeah.

Human connection is so different. Yeah, so different. I get what you mean. That's a good list. It's a good list. I think mine's pretty similar though. Going through like, whether it's training, running, you hit that point of like, I can't do this, can't do this. And you get past that and then afterwards you're like, you know what? Fair play. Like, that's sick. Fulfillment. Music's a big thing. Like, why the am I doing music? I mean.

Yeah, I haven't spoke about that enough. Tell me about that.

Where do you go from the start or it's not the start.

Yeah, well, like, is that becoming more than, than YouTube? Do you like which, which thing would you pick if you can only pick one? Like, you got the YouTube, the music, the fashion stuff. I don't know why I'm asking. Actually. Don't have to pick one. But where does it sit in your head?

It's so difficult, I'll be honest. Just missed the carpet. It's hard saying this because it's like I've always had to doubt myself because of where I've come from. There's a big stigma around going from YouTube to making music. I was a YouTuber making a song.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I knew going into it that's what it'd be like. But four years down the line, like we've had songs that have hit one mil, one and a half mil. Like some like mad. But like gaining respect has never been a thing. It's so hard, bro. Like, so as much as I like to be like, yeah, I love making music, I've always got that thought in the back of my head that's like, you can't say that because you've come off a platform and you do know what I mean. But that brings me a lot of happiness. It was an accident how it started as well. I was, I think I was hungover, mate. Hungover all the time in that house. Good old 18 year old Spence. Love and life.

Yeah.

I posted Some. I actually remember you saying, like, something about freestyle rap.

Yeah, yeah.

General the first time you do it, you'll be like, oh, like the guest. I was just really active on Twitter at the time I posted it. And I remember in like, 2, 3 days time, it had like 10k likes, which back in Twitter days, that was like, yeah, it's like 300, 400, 000 views. I was like, oh, God. Like, and it was good. It was positive, like, response to. My whole world just changed. Jamal hit me up. Legend, bro. When I was 18, 17. He's like, Bro, this is sick. Met him. He really was the one that got me, like. I don't know, just boost the confidence with it all. Like, put me in situations where I didn't feel like I had to explain myself when it came to making music that makes sense. Don't know if you met Jamal.

No, no.

But, yeah, so that was a thing, and I kept doing it, and then I was just in rooms where I've always done music. Like, my dad's a jungle dj, like a soul.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Weird guy. Wavy guy. Actually not weird, but my brother's a big musician as well, so it's always been like a family thing. Like, growing up, always loved it. Always played, like, instruments. But because of the YouTube thing, you'd enter a room with people that, I don't know, would normally be like, yeah, that's cool. They purposely would be like, nah, I can't with this guy. Don't fuck with this guy. And it's been the same, like, throughout the four years of doing it. I'll be in rooms of people that I don't know probably, like, I don't know. You hear what I'm saying? Like, as much as I'd love to be like, I love music, I love it because it's great. I feel like what I talk about in the music, my management explain it, like, it's the only time we get to hear the real you not talking about cars, girls. Okay, maybe sometimes. But, like, it's like an expression. It's like an outlet for me. So, like, when you know that people are gonna try and hate it as soon as it comes out. But I love the music.

That sounds like it happens to a lot of people. Like, when KSI first started putting music out, I think there's still an element.

Of that, but he's a gatekeeper for that.

Like, he speak to Wes, who was obviously on another island. Yeah, of course he said he still has that.

And unfortunately, I feel like, where does that come from?

Is it just people want. It's just a reason to knock them.

Down or people don't like, people doing well, man. And, like, hats off to Wes, hats off to jj. Like, these people are opening doors for people like me. Do you know what I mean? But I still have had it for four years. Like, even people I don't know, man, like, I don't even want to start naming names, but there's been people that have put me on. Like, people like Jamal. I don't know if you know. Aaron, Unknown. Aaron. Yeah. People like this have, like, some. A big bro, like, picked me up from 18 and was like, nah, you're coming with me sort of thing. So I got a lot of love and respect for people that did believe in what I was trying to do. There's only a handful of them. But even now, like, as much as I love music, I'm still gonna be fighting this war of, like, I'm not trying to be something I'm not out here trying to be somebody that I'm not. I just love making music, man. Like, production, everything. But because of where I've come from, I still make tick tocks, bro. So it's hard for people to visual, like, as visualize it. I mean, yeah, it's difficult. It's really difficult, but I love it to pieces.

I think you'll always do it, regardless of how commercially successful is. Well, I happy respond to it because of you.

Yeah, because a different connection. Like, it's not like a YouTube video where people can watch it. Like, cool, done. That's it. What's next? People, like, revisit. And I think if what you're talking about in your music is, like, honest and it's real and people relate to it, it's. It's a different feeling. Like, growing up, I used to listen to, like, my first album I ever bought was, like, Dr. Dre 2001. Like, Eminem. Like, that was my, like, growing up. And I. It did something to me. Do you know what I mean? And I think if one person can listen to the music and be like. And I've had people come up to me and say this, but, like, you know what? That helped me through this, or, like, I resonate with that. But it's a different feeling to. Then to put in a video out called say I shot it, and people going, this was jokes.

Yeah.

See what I mean? But I think there'll always be that people just don't want you doing well.

Yeah. Interesting. What do you think is the biggest opportunity in Terms of the fashion stuff then, and building brands off the back of your brand, especially as you, as you said, you want to be less all about you, like into the future.

Like what's the goal for the fashion stuff? Yeah.

And like, do you think, is it similar with the music in the sense that because you're building a brand off the back of your brand, is it always going to be associated with you or do you want to build something that's like bigger than you and separate to you? Do you know what I mean?

Definitely. That's the long term goal. Like we spoke about. Big up the boys. Cole Buxton represent. That is like my like ideal, like dream. Do you know what I mean? Like sort of have like a social profile about it, but it's low key.

Yeah. More as the founder of the band.

Rather than people respect it. Like this guy's cool because of what he creates. Not this guy's cool. Do you know what I mean? There's such a difference. And I think that's the dream for me now is like with the fashion stuff, I've been lazy with it, but I just haven't had the right headspace with it. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I look up to these guys. I'm like, that's so cool, bro. And like there's nothing else that gets me gas like that. Same with music stuff. I'll like watch someone spit or like someone will say something and it's like, but I'll listen. I don't know about you. I'm listening to music 24 7.

Yeah, same. I'm talking to everything as well. Every genre.

Yeah. Because it hits different and I think for me, YouTube doesn't do that anymore, unfortunately, because it's. I don't want to self reflect every week. The podcast thing's sick. I this love of concept, but like sharing my life every day. It's not exciting, man. But the music, I can spend more time on it. Scary when you release it, but feels different. Like people feel it differently. And so I've been like, it's so easy to put a name on a piece of clothing. It's like, how do you get people to resonate with that? Same with like space. Space kids and like you want people to actually fuck with the product, right?

Yeah, that's the goal. Yeah. I feel like fashion, like all the stuff I've done, I've never. Well, I used to have a clothing brand when I was like 21. It did pretty well. We had like Luke Hemings from 5 Seconds of Summer wearing it and shit. Jeez. But I was never. It's called Dusk. I mean, we did like a few hundred grand in sales. This is when I was like 20 at uni. It was never like, I was never that into it. I wasn't really into fashion that much. And then, yeah, I had a jewelry business as well. I guess that was like fashion, but I wasn't. Again, I was never into that, but that did really well. And then before I had the neon thing, but I guess now I'm trying to change the world with mushrooms, which is more of like that's never going to be about me because I mean, it's also like it's not a fashion brand. It's not necessarily even a cool brand, even though I think it can be in, in the space. But it's very different to like brands like Cold Books and represent because they're, they're sick brands that I guess the founders have kind of built their own personal brands off the back of the brand rather than building a brand off.

The back of the.

Yeah, exactly. Like, what do you think stopping you building a multi million pound massive brand that you're passionate about? If anything, you say that's like the dream.

Like that's the goal.

Yeah.

And this is why I said, why can't I support you for a chat?

Why can't you go head first into that?

Because that's what I want to do. But I think because I've done this oar thing, which is my clothing brand. I've had since I dropped out, I've just been like connected to dragging it along and if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna do it, I want to do it properly and I want to, I want to be proud of everything that I'm putting out. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I don't know. Half heart it. I've half hearted it for like five years, but that's definitely something that is in the works. Has been planned for a while. I just need to pick a few brains.

So something you could see yourself doing for like 10 years.

I'd love to, man. It'd be the dream, like, like the whole concept around it. Whether it's like I want people wearing clothes, but that was the original meaning of oar is people wear it because they're like breaking the mold or they're doing something different. And that's what it felt like when we first started. People wearing it would come up and be like, like I said, dropped out of college, now freelance photography. Like my life's that was what the purpose was and I feel like I lost that. So if I can get something like that I've got a brand with meaning not people coming up to me but like when I see someone wearing it it's like a mindset thing. I don't know, it's like something bigger than me. Like do you know what I mean?

Yeah. This also something I think about a lot is because I've always had this idea in my head I'll build a business to sell and get really rich but before I'm like 30 and then I'm like done and then disappear for a bit.

Yeah.

But then it's like wait a minute, let's say that happens. What do I do for the next 50 years? So then it's like maybe I should just actually work on that. I could imagine myself doing super long term rather than having this, you know, goal of it being done by 30 or whatever which I don't even know where that comes from in the first place. And granted maybe have like goals by a certain time but there's like a lot of life ahead and I guess I'm just trying to work out like how would I want to spend my time is like when I'm like an.

Adult with like what does that even look like?

I mean yeah, I think I think about this because it's like when you're younger your kind of told what to do, you fit into this box and like I granted like I dropped out of union then I kind of figured out myself but like even then I feel like when you're in your 20s and shit, I don't know, people expect you to be a bit more random and shit and try different things but then it's like you kind of have to pick like your, your arena to operate in. I guess mine is like E commerce and shit. But even within that will I do that forever? I don't know. Like I don't know if you think about this at all but yeah, I'm trying to think like what will I be doing when I'm 40? Like work wise. Because it's a nice idea to be like oh just be sat on a yacht but you'd be bored out of your brain after about a week.

Like cool. Like you go on a yacht and oh, I can't spend seed today. Yeah, I mean it'd be the same problem bro. But I think what you're saying it's like what does it look like? What would keep me fulfilled at that age? Like junior Daniel Arsham Is.

Don't know. Okay, maybe I should.

Conceptual artist. Wavy guy. He's like. He gets, like, Pokemon. He's like an artist. He has, like, that Pokemon. Have you seen those? Like, a Pokemon card made out of concrete, but it's got, like, crystals in it.

Nah. Sounds cool, though.

But like, that, like, just. That's so different. Abstract. I could do that 140.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? But it's just, like, I don't know about you. I have a fear of people not receiving it. Well, I don't know if that comes from what I've done in the past with YouTube. And, like, I'd love to.

What is in you feel like you can't be, like, as creative as you want to be because people might think it's weird or whatever.

But I think that's sadly the mindset that I'm having to unlearn now. I slowly unlearn because we were talking about, like, I feel like I live my life to entertain other people. So I'm slowly learning to not use that opinion first in, like, even now. Do you know what I mean? I found myself in situations where I'm like, this idea would be so sick, and then, boom, I can't do that.

I know what you mean. Actually, I've started to break away from that a little bit with, like, this new brand. Like, even just, like, the names I'm calling products and the fact that it's all pink. And I'm just like, I'm here now. I stopped, like, giving a. About. Oh, people might think that my branding is, like, gay or feminine. Do you know what I mean? And now I'm trying to be, like, more. More of a creative because, like, saying off camera before, feel like I just got bogged down in, like, the running of a business, which, ironically, like, including stuff I've done in the past was started because of. I initially used to draw logos. That's where it all came from, like, years and years ago.

And I did the reverse.

Yeah. So now I'm trying to, like, go back to trying to figure out, obviously, like, want to build a very commercially successful business. I understand a lot of that because I've been doing it for years. I'm still figuring out. But I also don't just want to be. I don't even want to be considered like, a businessman. I'd rather be known as, like, the fucking guy that does the pink branding and build this. This sick thing.

But that's how the thing is. That's how you see. I do see it as how you wanted to see it, to be completely honest, because I know I've met you once, I mean, but like, I know these ideas are you yours. So I don't know if that's like a. I don't know. I'm not even trying to toot your horn here. I'm just like. Yeah, like, watching the space goods, all the, the imagery and everything come together looks sick. I knew it was your idea. Do you know what I mean? But as you said, like, obviously you started wanting to be known for this and now you're having to do the 70 business work.

Yeah. And now it's like, it's a fine line, like figuring out the balance.

Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know, just like a fear of how it's received. Do you have that a lot or.

Yeah, I mean, I think I probably started giving less of a. Since I Putting like, content out and just being honest on like the podcast and shit. But I mean, I'll probably get canceled at some point. There'll be some clip. I've said, you know, year ago that when it's like played slowly and out of context, it looks misogynistic or whatever. Probably not happen at some point, I'm sure.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think I've got to the point in life where because maybe because I've been through some, like, bad times as well, I just, like, I'm trying to just enjoy the process as well. But even that's something I'm battling with, like, because I. I kind of realized that. I think the thing that I'm missing in the process is like, just more people around me because again, what we're saying before, and I've ranted about this on my own, like YouTube. It's so great being able to work from anywhere and be remote and, you know, have a fully online business and you can scale it to the moon even though you don't have an office. And. But then it's like, but what does my day to day look like if I'm not in making us? I actually would like to have an office with 20 people in it because then we have like, there's energy in the room and like, routine and that's something I could do long term. So I'm trying to figure that out because, yeah, it's difficult.

It's part of the journey. And I think, like, it's kind of.

Lonely just doing everything remote. It's lonely, bro, because everything's just online. I speak to the team online. Speak to everyone online.

Right?

Yeah. Pretty Much.

Yeah. And then you go, oh, I've just like. I think London's like that, though, so fast paced that if you're not doing something for the day, it plays on your mind a lot more remote working. But then it comes into the whole thing of, like, so if you had other people here, would you be happier? Would you be more distracted?

Well, that's the thing. So it comes down to, like, happiness versus, like, efficiency and like, what actually makes sense to achieve, like, the goal. But then it's like, if you're not happy, then does anything else matter? I don't know. That's kind of a philosophical.

Yeah, it comes into it, Jonah. Relationship. I know we're speaking about it earlier. Just chat about, like, because I think it comes into this, like, companionship. I think, as you said, like, entrepreneurial stuff. It's very lonely, very lonely. Because you've got to believe in something that only you can see. Right? Like, and then when you get someone, like, on board or you're in a relationship or talking to someone or whatever dating is nowadays, I mean, like, it's. It's a completely different story. But having someone around all the time, like, like I said to you when the mics went on, like, if I'm talking to someone or I'm in a relationship, I feel like subconsciously my decisions are altered by their opinion. When it comes to business as well. Like, everything I do and it's not cool. And that's another thing I'm unlearning. But you feel.

Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know what you meant at first, but I get what you're saying now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you feel like you. Because you. You said to me earlier that you like to think of it as like the hopeless romantic. Is that what you said? Hopeless?

Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't say. Yeah, I just. I always just like making movie moments in my head about probably really mundane shit. So I'm probably. I. Romantic. I like romanticizing everything, which isn't even just in a relationship sense. It's just like me fucking working on my laptop at night. I'll put a pink light on and play the 1975 for two hours and I'll play it fucking slowed on YouTube so it's even more romantic. I mean.

Yeah.

So revert version. Yeah, Exactly. Like the 1975. If you're in a bathroom and after party, like those sort of videos, that's the sort of vibe I like.

Do you feel like you're craving that, like, companionship? What do you think it's just not needed as a success?

Someone. My mate said this to me the other day, actually. They were like, you need a girlfriend. And I was like, I feel like.

You need a girlfriend, though.

I mean, I don't feel like I need one because. But I did say this. I think I said this when I was drunk to my mate. I said, maybe the thing I feel like I'm sometimes missing is just, like, feminine energy in my life, bro.

It's the best thing in the world. Not even in a sexual way or.

Like a. Yeah, no, literally, that's the thing. It's not even just that. Which probably makes me sound like a. Right, the opposite of Andy Tate, but that just ain't me anyway, so stop watching the POD if you care about that. Sort of. But, yeah, I don't know. That's my. Even my mum said that to me. I was chatting to her, like, everything's going to well. Like, what is it I feel is missing? And I was like, oh, maybe it's because I need an office. And she was like, oh, you need a girlfriend. I was like, nah.

I mean, feminine energy is great, bro. It is, but I'll be so careful. Is it?

Why?

No, I think. I don't know about yourself, but I always, like you said, like, fantasize about, like. Like, doing as a team. It's like, the idea of that. Or like, being able to show somebody, like, a side of life they never seen before and do it, like, as a Jonah. Like that classic film, like, building a business together and running off into the stars and shit like that.

Yeah. I mean, but my biggest fantasy has always just been taking a girl to Italy and fucking driving around in a Ferrari, which I could do tomorrow if anyone wants to fucking come with you. But this is the thing, like. Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna go too deep on certain things.

Yeah, it's like that month. But do you feel like. So you've got this idea. I feel like both of us are quite similar on this, like, fitness journey of, like, learning to feel comfortable in that loneliness.

Yeah. I mean, I. I'm definitely, by default, someone that prefers being around people. Like, I operate. I think my problem. I'm not saying I can't be by myself because I spend a lot of time by myself at work and. But my problem is if I. If I can speak to someone, then my thoughts aren't as loud in my head.

What's your relationship with yourself like?

Probably just a lot of time in my head overanalyzing things, which is probably why I need a really good expensive therapist. But instead I did the pod.

Yeah, just get car map.

Yeah, I've tried that. I've tried that.

I've seen some good links, bro.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, it's a weird thought though in it because you don't know if you're like craving something that's just not. I don't know. I feel like relationships are a matter of interest general. Cuz you want to experience the world and do all of that and meet new people and not feel too like tied down. Even myself. I'm a relationship person.

Have you always been in relationships?

Typically I've probably been like three or four, which is like for my age. It's not. They've all been like a year and a half.

Yeah, yeah. It's quite a lot to be fair. I've only had one serious girlfriend. How long ever. That was like 18 months.

Yeah.

And I mean I'd never wanted one other than that because that just came along and it felt natural.

Yeah. And that's it.

Whereas my own brother has always had girlfriends like three years a month later. Three years. Three years. Like the fuck. I'm just like, how do you even do that? How do you do it? Whereas for me, like, I'm just. I'm by default like not remotely interested in anyone until someone comes along. I'm like, for fuck's sake.

You can't say no at that point.

Yeah. I would never go out looking for it because I'm always so focused on my own shit and I always have been. But yeah, like, I don't know if there's some like pheromones going on, then it feels natural, then it's crazy, then I'm all about it.

Have you had that moment as of like the past? I don't know.

Maybe recently.

I don't know. Maybe.

Yes.

It's a weird one, right?

Potentially.

Yeah. Now I hear that. I feel like similarly. Probably quite similar. But I do the same loop, bro. When it comes to like girls relationships, like I have a solid three months. I swear on my life. This sounds so like, pick me, bro. Like I'll get sat down and be like, you're too nice. And it makes me feel like I'm in that film. Jeremy, when much is that a.

That's just like what is in. You'll be dating someone and then turns out you're too nice.

Or like that whole like, oh, it's not you, it's me by. Because I feel like with us like romantics, I'm Just there, you know, that.

Is an interesting one because there's this I reference like Andy Tay again because everyone, fucking everyone's talking about Runner. There's that whole like red pill movement on like Twitter particularly. And this kind of like extreme, I would say like toxic masculinity. The point where like guys can't have emotions. Like, yeah, you have to, I don't know, like just be this like beefcake.

Sort of Alpha male.

Yeah, alpha male bollocks. And the irony is it's all these 18 year olds that have no alpha traits whatsoever that are pushing this narrative.

Aspiring to be like that.

Whereas I've always felt like the most masculine thing is just being authentically yourself.

Facts, facts, all day, bro, all day.

And obviously there's a time and a place where, I don't know, I feel like I could, if I really needed to, I could protect someone. And you know, like I'm physically capable but at the same, I've never understood, I've never related to the whole like people will say like pink is feminine. Like you can't listen to like romantic music and. But I'm like, what? That's just me. Cuz I'm comfortable in my own sexuality.

And like, personally great thing to be.

I don't need to pretend I'm some big meathead and like punch someone in the street to look hard because like there's something Jordan Peterson said something so interesting. But it's like true masculinity is like being a dangerous person who has it under voluntary control or something. And that's like intellectually dangerous. Like articulate. I don't know that's even a word. Being able to articulate yourself properly, being like emotionally intelligent as well as intelligent, like that's all like skills, I think. And yeah, I don't know, I think the idea of like you just need to be some fucking guy that goes around punching people and like every woman is a piece of shit and all this. It's like this strange polarizing narrative that everyone seems to have jumped on, but it's just never been me.

No, but I, I know gonna get like slave for saying this, but like I feel like this just comes from my experience anyway. Don't know about yourself. Like when you are trying to be honest and you are like that, like intact with your emotions and you're just like, yeah, I'm here in it. Like everything's good and they don't cause drama. I feel like girls love that. Almost like they want that masculine figure then. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like a whole role reversal situation where if you act too soft, I'm not running around like.

I mean, yeah, there is a fine.

Line, but I just feel like it.

Refuses to be a bit of a cunt sometimes.

I can't do it, bro. Because also it's like, why am I trying? Like, like, bro, I'm not gonna sit here and, like, pretend that, like, look at me. I mean, I'm gonna say it like this.

Yeah.

It doesn't make sense, but hopefully one day things will.

I mean, the first thing is girls are incredibly confusing. The second thing is some people, some girls would look at a character like Andy Tate and think he's the most gorgeous thing ever. But then you get the girls that are really into, like, Harry Styles.

Yeah.

Who dresses as a woman. I think he's, like, bisexual. And. And. And they love that. So it's like. Well, that's why I just think you should just be authentic to yourself, do what comes naturally to you. Because there's no point being trying to fake being either way because there's plenty of people that like, either type and somewhere in between. So just fucking be yourself.

And if you can attract someone when you are your 100% true self, and.

That comes back to what you say at the start. So you feel like you do things with the reaction of the other person in mind, which fucks. Which maybe means you're not being yourself.

Because I'm worried about what they think.

Yeah, yeah. Everyone probably does that to an extent. Particularly if you don't know someone that well and you're trying to fucking. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like the early stages of dating someone or whatever, you're always putting on a bit of a show, which is risky because.

Yeah.

At what point do you just be yourself? And then.

It's scary, isn't it? And I had this conversation with this girl recently, and it made me think a lot. It was like she was describing to me about how she feels like the dating in this generation is like, people view others as, like, just everyone's disposable.

Oh, I tweeted about this since my only tweet has ever gone viral.

Really? What did it say?

Got like over a million impressions. It was just something like this generation, like, is with dating. Because it was basically that because everyone's so disposable. There's always grass, always greener, you can always contact.

And bro, it makes.

On Instagram, there's 20, 000 people within this, you know, within London that would probably Reply to a dm.

If you're looking at certain sort of girls, your Explore page is going to be filled with a variation of other people. Bro. It's so Taps. Like so taps. And I think that is probably a fear even in myself. Why I'm scared to like be in a relationship. Relationship.

I feel that in like 20, 22.

Oh, bro. Dating now.

Yeah.

Because you go on a date and then you can just buy. Yeah, no, you can go on four or five dates. You can date someone for four months, three months and then.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Like it's just that fear of like oh mate. Like. Yeah. And social media like as a concept in dating is terrible.

Like it's great for access but terrible for longevity.

Thanks.

I'll just come up with that now. It sounds quite good.

Yeah, that was banging.

Quite intellectual. Yeah. I don't know what the answer is. I think it's only going to get worse. But like the next generation, people that are like 10 years old now, growing up into like adolescence with like tik.

Tok, it's all they know. I feel like we. Well personally there was like growing up till I was about 10 or 11, there was still that like you just live outside still. If you're growing up in the this like community society that's based on comparison, whether it's girls, females, you've seen relationships, that the way it should be. How does like bro, like even like girls I've been with before that like feel I'm sat there and I'm like, I feel like this girl is trying to like relive a tick tock she's seen. Do you know what I mean though? Like yeah, it feels like everyone's got an expectation of what it should be like. And now that the social media generation's coming up, like imagine when 10 year olds are now 18 and they go out dating.

I read some of the like birth rates are going down because of social media. There's like some, broadly speaking, that was the premise of it, like basically people are not in relationships therefore aren't having children. Like that's the long term effects of potentially this sort of thing.

Do you want kids?

Yeah, definitely.

Cool.

But no time soon.

I know a lot of my mates are just like no. And that's the first time I've heard it like recently.

Yeah, I mean like I say like definitely no time soon at all. But I just think, I think maybe it comes from that like maybe desire to like be a provider for my future family and shit and build this Fucking legacy. I think I just naturally feel like that would give me fulfillment.

Yeah. At that point I think that's a fair justification of it. But I just, I don't know, I feel like the whole thing's just kind of getting scary. But I'm scared. Even with my job, bro, it's terrifying trying to convince a girl. Like, nah, like that sounded really weird the way I said that. But like I feel like even just chatting to a girl or you're speaking to a girl, probably similar view as well. Like, like, oh, but you can go and chat to someone who's in your DMs and like, I'll get shit for that, but I won't do anything pro life.

Yeah, I mean I definitely have that to the same extent. Not remotely because you got a blue tick and 200,000 followers and all this shit.

But I mean, similar concept.

I have flippantly said that to girls before.

Like, is it.

I've said. Not that I wouldn't actually go near a girl that had a hundred thousand followers by default, but like even just you don't even have to have followers. But like these days it's like, I don't know, is Drake gonna DM the girl you're into and just. She's gone.

Right?

Yeah, it's a weird one. And it works both ways. Of course.

I feel like even dating now, I.

Feel like an option, it's kind of deep. It's true.

It's facts. Like if I don't do a certain thing or make sure I'm top form, then she's gonna go see Michael from Lester.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It's weird for like.

But why the thing is with that. And again, it works both ways. Like cuz yeah, guys and girls get dms. I suppose. I mean, probably more girls, but yeah, true.

Probably.

By default. The only way to build anything long term and fucking like have kids and shit and prevent the birth rate and population going down is to just pick one person and like, obviously foster that relationship and water the grass, so to speak. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know how that looks for this generation because everyone's on social media and everyone is, you know, in. In theory, like, like replaceable very quickly because of like Instagram.

Primarily because you can. It's terrifying, bro. Like the more we talk about this, the more I feel a bit weird.

Like.

Yeah, you're so correct with it.

That's why you gotta make sure if you're dating a girl, she doesn't have an Instagram account. You've gotta delete that Instagram account. You gotta both delete Instagram now. I'm joking. But like, bro, like, that might become the solution to this sort of.

Do you reckon social media will get to a point where it will be the new trend to not have it?

Probably, but the problem is I've gone through. I went through a phase of deleting Instagram for like six months. I didn't have a profile. And then I delete the app all the time, so I don't need this. But then I'm like, I mean, what if someone messages me and it's like an opportunity? I don't know, it could be anything.

It's that anxiety of not knowing.

Like, so now it's like, if anyone that I actually know, I would like, speak to me on WhatsApp. Because I'm checking the. I'm checking DMS. I try not to go on the app. And like, even Twitter as well. Like, I mean, Twitter is more like intellectual, so I kind of prefer that. But still a dark place. Yeah, you need, you need to have a profile these days because otherwise you basically are no one. So, like this girl that I mentioned off camera, her Instagram account got disabled, right. Last week out of nowhere. So on Monday. Yeah, so she messaged me, freaking out because she knew that I could fix it. And I was like, all right, no, I'll fix it.

Yeah.

And we did fix it in like a day. But she was literally like, oh, my life's over. And I'm there joking like, oh, you probably be in probably much happier. Your account never comes back. But it's like, yeah, it's. It's our personal like cv. It's like our identity. You. You almost don't exist without a social media profile, bro.

If my touch wood of some sort, if my social got deleted, I don't know what to do.

So I've had my brand page, the Space Goods account got disabled twice in the first three months because I was speaking about psychedelics. So I had to cut that entirely.

And you're putting money behind it, right?

Yeah, a lot of money.

Psychedelics.

And yeah, so that's been a problem. And it happened in the past with the Neon beach account and all this and like, it can kill a business.

Just momentum wise and everything.

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So fragile.

Terrifying, man. But I think even though we're talking about a lot of negatives, I won't be sat there without it.

Yeah, exactly.

I think, yeah. I do feel like there's a lot more negatives and positives, but I think it's just like, as you said, it's all balance in it.

I think ultimately. Yeah. The answer is have a profile, you know, whether it's personal business, use it for what you need, but just don't spend all your time on it.

Just don't rely on self.

Just like, limit how much time you're on social media.

Yeah, no, 100%. I said, like, when I'm 30, but then I. You said this, like, it's the whole goal of like, 30. I'll turn my phone off and never turn on again because I'll complete it.

Yeah. I live in Bali by the beach.

Sounds great. Love to do that right now, but at the same time, you know, in six months I'd be like, well, then it's become like.

It's become almost like a limb rather than an option now.

Like social media, isn't it? Yeah.

Like you need to have it to exist.

It's terrifying. Like, even the thought of. I actually think I'd lose 90% of people I call friends if I didn't have a social profile. Not because the way they view me, but just in general, like, contacting them.

Yeah. Just lose half. It's mad, I know.

Crazy.

I don't know what the answer to it is really, but, yeah, I think the thing it comes down to the end of the day is, like, humans through social media and like, this whole metaverse that's obviously been tossed about loads. I just don't like. It should always. It should be a tool to connect and leverage the Internet and whatever, but it should never. It will never, in my opinion, it cannot ever replace just the biological functions of humans because, like, granted, we have technology, but at the end of the day, we're still meant to be outside more than we are inside, you know, like, yeah, we need to speak to each other, look each other in the eyes, touch people. We can't do that online.

Human connection is the most important thing in the world.

Yeah, exactly.

If you think.

And it's becoming like a dying form.

It is. But if you deep. Yeah. We could go so far into this. I just. Don't sound too nuts.

I mean, conspiracy theories and shit, but.

It'S like, right, a cake. Go back to when we were just walking around as a. Have you read Sapiens?

No. I've heard about it, though.

Such a lit book. It's all about, like, different human species. Right. Imagine you're that and you're walking around. It's just there's nothing going on. You're just walking around. You go kill something to eat your food, you bring back to your family. You spend all day with them. Now we have to live in four walls. You have to.

Yeah. It's actually crazy to be safe. Yeah.

I mean, and then you've got all these other things that you need to have. Right. It's just the whole thing's great. Like, now we. Now we need a phone to connect with people that we don't know, and without it, we feel lost. That's just. Bro, it's. Yeah. I don't want to start sounding like.

No, it's crazy, but I just feel like.

Yeah, I don't know. I can't wait for the day that it will make sense.

Yeah. I guess it's like a thing this. This entire generation and fucking world is trying to figure out.

We're all guinea pigs to it, though.

Because it is mad. The iPhone didn't exist, like, 13 years ago, basically. And same with, like, social media. Yeah, something like that.

So why?

What's next? I always think, like, technology is going so quick.

Yeah.

But like, biology. Biology hasn't changed. I mean, like, that's probably why that.

Yeah.

A lot of people that depressed and anxiety is going through the roof. And because we're not living like humans anymore, we're living like robots in many ways.

Yeah. I don't get too much detail, but. Yeah, your facts. But also, like, you don't have a choice so much. Right. Like, I'm gonna leave it on this, like, the whole Covid situation. Just leave it there. I mean, you don't have a choice in this.

Yeah, absolutely. It's crazy.

Well, cheers to that.

Yeah. I feel like we could go on forever. I'm gonna ask you a few more questions and we'll wrap up. I've started asking a lot of people these sort of things. What do you think's been the hardest thing in your career thus far? At the ripe old age of 22, I guess since you were 17, what do you think's been the hardest part about doing what you do?

Is it not day in, day out, or, like a moment or just anything?

Maybe both. I guess it's a pretty broad question.

Day in, day out, it's like days where I feel, like, really insecure or I just don't feel myself. And I've got. I've got, like, a branded piece of content that I've got character in that me up. You talk about challenges within hardest thing. Okay, cool. You say something nice and there's Me be like. But yeah, no, that probably. And then hardest moments probably like that cancellation thing. Cancellation. Just a difficult period. But apart from that, I'm very blessed. I haven't said this. I just want to say this as well. I'm very grateful, very blessed that I'm able to live this amazing lifestyle at the same time. Because I feel like I just chat about YouTube for about two hours.

Yeah.

But at the same time, it's a mad blessing, be able to support people and, like, live a life I never thought I could live. I'm very grateful for that. But it does obviously come with challenges.

That we spoke about. Yeah.

What about yourself? Actually, I'm true.

Flip it on me. Well, I'll answer in the opposite way. I think the hardest time was like the last year I spoke about in like 2021. Definitely by fucking far. I think the hardest thing broadly other than that in entrepreneurship is probably two things, which is cheating, but the ups and downs, which has probably made me like medicinally bipolar at this point.

Yes.

Because, yeah, like my pet, my, you know, my day, my week could be defined by how well the business is going or what the numbers look like or what the graph is saying. Yeah, exactly. And there's great times and there's shit times. I think other than that, probably the loneliness of building in every way, like physically sometimes, but probably more mentally because, you know, especially as like a solo founder, which I've always been, you bear the brunt of everything.

You've got to believe in yourself ten times more than. Yeah, I can. Right. Yeah.

So I think that. But. But again, like you just said, I'm still very aware that even all the ups and downs, I'm very fortunate. I'd never say lucky because it's not that. But, yeah, very fortunate. Yeah. And I'm probably not great. I probably don't practice gratitude enough because at the end of the day, I'm healthy, I have a great circle of friends, and I'm doing what I would have wanted to be doing when I was 16 years old.

I'm sure there's people that are watching this that are inspired by your journey. Do you know what I mean? And that's it.

I hope so.

I know what you mean. I do feel like we just chat about our jobs, however.

Yeah, very grateful. Very grateful.

That's everything we kind of dreamed of. Right. I think we're just being honest and transparent about what comes with it.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. All right, final question. And this puts everyone on the spot. Three bits of advice. Your 17 year old self knowing what you know now.

Wow. Three. First one, what can it be like.

Just personally just anything just broadly.

Sounds so cliche but one thing that actually scream and it's like believe in what you see and what you like believe in what you want to do, like your vision, whatever it is. Because I feel like a lot of times in my life I've like I could have hit the jackpot or I could have hit the lick on something but I listen to someone that doesn't know what they're on about, it's opinion and I've been like, yeah, no worries. It's like not my confidence would happen but looking back now, like I was like, it would have been sick. Things like that. Just believe in whether it's music like I don't know, you said you wanted your freestyle rap, bro. Just send it like. Do you know what I mean though? Like you just gotta do it like if it's fun or if it's just for like whatever. I think yeah, I would have just not lost my content confidence as much with it during that weird phase when I was 18. Second one, invest your money. Like obviously have fun with it. You've got to. But looking back is so mate, like I've made some awful financial mistakes. So have I. I made some great ones as well. I'm sure you have too.

But.

It'S like how many pairs of shoes do you need? Like yeah, but little shit just because I could. And like I think when I was younger I couldn't afford the I wanted so I bought it and now you realize. But yeah, just save your money, invest it. Like yeah, just be smart. That's one thing I tell myself. And then third one is smile more. Because I feel like even if there's know. I mean I feel like at the end of the day you've seen that TikTok where it zooms out and it's.

Just like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

Like it's like weird and spiritual. You want to get with it like could be gone tomorrow, mate. Just enjoy it. Just enjoy it. Like I think that's what we've kind of been talking about. It's like we're very grateful for what's happened. But yeah, enjoy it. Smile.

That's a good message to end on, I think.

Yeah.

But that was a very varied episode and I like it for that reason.

Too far. I loved it. I feel like I could finally like be myself and like just to be honest with like what's going on. So I appreciate it.

Yeah, good shit. As always, subscribe to the pod. Go fucking check out Spencer's stuff. Yeah, he's probably got a lot of people that already know he is and shit. So, yeah, share the pod if you're liking it. Plenty more episodes season two, we are back. We're doing like three a week right now, so fucking coming for that Diary of a CEO spot.

And also, if you come from my stuff, subscribe to the pods. Great.

Exactly.

Great content.

Exactly.

Check the boy out.

Let's go. Right. Cheers for watching. Appreciate the support, as always. Catch you in the next episode. Peace. See.

It.