Multi-Million £££ Self Made Fashion Brand at 25 - Jordan Jones | Midnight Podcast Episode 6

Right, we are back with episode, I think six of the Midnight Pod. And this is probably, in my opinion, one of the more exciting episodes so far. Just because I suppose what we've probably spoken online for maybe, like, that sounds proper weird, but just on, like, Instagram for maybe. I'm gonna say, like two years.

I think it's about a year.

I think it's maybe a year, maybe less.

I think it was on a. On a podcast I watched maybe like a year ago. Then I sent you a DM saying, oh, yeah, you're a sick guy.

Yeah, something like that. And then I didn't know what you did initially because I don't think you had Morvais in your. Is it Morvay?

Mervay.

Mervay. Fucking hell. Okay. In your bio. And then you did. Etc. Etc. But, yeah, long story short, we've got Jordan Jones, founder of Mervay Mauvais.

That's it.

I thought it was Mervay.

Do you know what? No one knows how to pronounce it.

What does that actually mean?

Basically, it means the word bad in French.

So, yeah, because I Google search earlier, you find movie.

Yeah. So apparently the. Obviously in. In English, bad is like slang for, you know, cool. Like, yeah, bad guy, sick guy. Apparently when it's a translation into French, it doesn't quite work in the same way. But for me, I'm just thinking, like, we're gonna, like, redefine the word. Like, we're gonna make Movae our own words. Same way you got in studios.

Yeah.

Made Acne Studios a cool brand. We're doing the same for Mervae.

Yes, it's Mervae, not Mova. All right, cool.

Yeah.

So Jordan Jones and yeah, I'm excited about this episode because I just, you know. Yeah, it's fucking weird when you speak to people online and never meet them, but I feel like there's a pretty niche set of, like, young, successful E comm founders in the uk, particularly, like, I don't know. I don't know the facts, but I reckon there's, like, definitely, like, less than 20 people.

Definitely.

Yeah. Probably maybe 50 less. Yeah. Unless, like, super secret people. But I just feel like people like, you don't get enough air time. I've been giving myself air time the past few episodes, but, yeah, that's why I wanted to do it. And I suppose just. Yeah, just be good to. Because I actually know, like, like, relatively what? Fucking very little about your background, to be fair. And a little bit about Muscle Monkey and shit.

But, yeah, that's it?

The first, I guess question is just like, tell us about your background. And I guess, yeah, from school, etc. Etc.

For me, I was always, like, massively into, like, business and selling as a young kid. Like, I think, like, when I was like, 10 years old, like, I was like, flipping stuff and selling stuff on ebay and would buy books, like how to Get Rich on Ebay when I was like, 10. And the one thing for me is like, that sticks out in like 2006. Adam. Literally, I was in primary school, I had no cash, was getting 20 quid a month from my parents and the PS, PS2, PS2 or PS3 was coming.

Yeah.

And I was desperate to get this, this console. My parents said, like, we're not gonna buy it for you, you're gonna have to pay for it yourself. And I'm thinking, how the fuck can I buy this console and get 20 quid a month? It's gonna take me about four years. I'm gonna be about 16 by the time I can afford this.

There'll be a new PlayStation.

Yeah. So I ended up, like, at the time I was like, buying these Doctor who cards for, like, I'd buy a whole box from the. The corner shop for like 30 quid and then they'd. There'd be like certain Super Air cards in every single box.

Yeah.

So then on ebay, because there was like, collectors, they were. So I was to be able to sell them for like 15 pounds for each Super Air card. But I knew that in each box there'd be like, let's say like 10 super airs. So I'll be buying these boxes and then just selling the Super Rails on ebay. I made like a grand, like 10 years old.

Yeah.

So I managed to buy, like, buy the PS3, buy all the, all the, like, games around it, all the everything. So that's obviously my first bit into business. And then from there obviously was the guy who was selling sweets and polos and stuff.

Yeah, you were that guy.

I was that guy. But, like, to be fair, I think I was always into econ from, like, my mum. Mum always had, like a marketing background, so she'd always be driving into me about Internet. So from the early 2000s, when I was she, like a toddler, she was doing marketing, talking about Internet. So for me, that's what, like, really drove me. So I was doing. I was learning HTML and PHP CSS coding when I was. When I was a young lad. So I had that background of kind of learning how to figure things out for Myself as a young kid. So obviously when I hopped into like E commerce, it was second nature for me just to be like, well, how do you fix stuff? Like how, how can I add this to the website? You know, whereas most people don't have that. But yeah. So anyway, on a bit of a tangent.

No, that's good. That's what we need.

Yeah. So anyway, so after that. Yeah, so it's doing all that through school when I was like maybe 14, 15, 16, was sidetracked a little bit with football. Was like massively into like football as every, every kid is wanted to make that. So I kind of put business to the sides. It was like trading all the time. And then I founded my first brand when I was, when I was 17 and I was doing that alongside like a football course and like a sports science btec, which is. But I had like so much spare time and I always like had this itch in me to like do something that would progress me. So with me being so into fitness gym and stuff, a gym wear brand was like the next thing for me to do because obviously it tied in with the business and I always wanted to do business and clothing and stuff like that. So I set obviously the gym wear brand up and that was literally like, that was in 2014. So it was like the most amateur thing going like, we're literally printing on like, you know, Continental. Maybe it's like, it's basically Gildan but like better Gildan.

I like Gildan. Yeah, it's like elite Gildan.

It's like really good quality.

Yeah.

So we're doing, yeah, Continental T shirts printing on stuff like that all in literally like 10 a time.

Yeah.

No budget. If we ever bought a T shirt to like sample to send a factory, that would be like a shit ton of money that we would not be able to afford to lose again. So evolved with the Jimmo brand for a few years. Long story short, there was an issue with the brand name which is then.

What was around called Master Monkey. Yeah, yeah.

So there's. There was an issue with the brand name essentially. I won't go into the details, but it meant that I had to start a new brand. But at the time I was doing the gymware brand. I was working with ASOS at the time. ASOS was our biggest revenue source.

Yeah.

So ASOS said to us, look, we'll continue to support you, but we need to like start a new brand up. So the buyer ASOS helped me develop movae, so.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So I was, I still do Have a good relationship with the buyer. ASOS I worked with for them years and they kind of. I came up with loads of brand names and then they kind of said, you know, we like Movae. They helped put together the first range with me. And then so when we launched Movae, the first collection went on ASOS straight away. So it was good for the brand exposure. He even got us to go on like on the big drop down asos. It had like new brands or top brands. We managed to get on there for the first like couple of months, which again was great for brand exposure. And yeah, went from there, went to Foot Asylum, I think a few months after that, then done really well covered, hit then any wholesale up and then just done, done Econecon.

Yeah, I feel like that's like a what, seven year journey in seven minutes?

Yeah, it's obviously 25 now, so I'm starting at 17. So yeah, it's like seven and a half, eight years compounding of just like knowledge and learning.

And when did, when did Muscle Monkey end? And was it literally mobile straight away?

Yes, that was. So, yeah, ended in 2018.

Yeah.

So the thing is we just come off our best year of, of business and when I say best year, like these numbers were small compared to like what would be acceptable now. I think our last year of the gym, my brand was like 250k. It was like small numbers.

Yeah, yeah.

So small because we weren't.

We.

I did at the time, like Facebook was a lot different to it is now. There was not as many people cheap as. I wish, I wish I knew what I knew now. But then, yeah, everyone does trillionaire, probably.

Yeah, legit. I spoke about this before. Yeah, so true.

I'm like, obviously we're doing, we're doing paid ads, but on a small scale. If only I knew how to utilize it back then it would be like a different story. But yeah, so that, that kind of ended in 2018. Had our best year. Found out the news in like the Feb 2018. So I think the day after found out the news, I'll actually bought a whiteboard, put it up in my room. I was like, right, I need just to write whatever comes to my mind.

What do you mean by the news?

Well, within the brand name that we had to change the brand name or the brand that Muscle Monkeys, as it. As it was called, could not continue. So why.

And they said you won't go into it, but like who he made that decision. So I think people are gonna watch and yeah, long story, gonna Say why?

Long story short, it was an issue from something that was in the news front from another big company.

Yeah.

And the backup, the back fall from that was the. My brand was looked at as a brand that potentially could not, could not work. So it was nothing to do with trademark.

It could technically have continued.

It could have continued. So it could have continued. It was no trademark issue. There's no leg. At the time, ASOS was my biggest revenue source.

Yeah.

So you got to think back to, well, three years ago, E Com and our online website was not our revenue source. That's always the big issue with companies who focus on getting into retailers and don't focus on E Comm. Is that if anything happens with the retailer and for whatever reason, you might still sell well, but the retailer makes the decision that they're not going to stock your brand anymore. When that's pulled away from you, you could, your business could go under overnight.

Yeah.

So I've seen it happen time and time again. It's like, brands who. Some of these brands are making millions every year from certain retailers.

Yeah, I can think of a few, but I'm not going to say. Yeah, one in particular.

Yeah. And then all of a sudden the retailer says, you know what, we're going to change direction. We don't need you anymore. The, these brands that you go over on the night, you gotta understand that also these brands are set up to operate at a certain revenue level.

Yeah.

So when you pull that revenue, overheads, bigger warehouses, when you pull that away, like your business go under it in like two months because your, your burn rate is so high. So obviously we're operating on a, on a much lower scale, but we could not afford to lose the revenue that we're getting from asos. So physically the only thing we could do was listen to them and start the new brand as they wanted. So. Yeah, that's how Movie started.

And you say like they helped you start. That sounds like a pretty unique situation. Was that just because you, like, had a personal relationship with one of the people, like they just felt sorry for you or what? What's the dynamic?

I fit. So the guy, the people I worked with was Anthony and Maria asos. They were always really supportive of me, but I also think they saw like the, the hard work, talent and drive I had. So they like invested in me as a person.

Yeah.

So I think they could see that I would make something work when I had the opportunity. So they obviously had to get signed off by the, like the, I think the director or someone at ASOS high up, had to sign off and say, look, yeah, we could do this new round. But I was in a unique position where there was employees within ASOS who were prepared to kind of stand by my, like, by my side and fight, fight my corner and say, look, let's, let's start this new brand. But you know what, there was a few casualties within ASOS at the time of brands who had maybe names that could have been seen in a certain way, that could have got ASOS in trouble down the line that were kind of axed again. I won't go into it, but I might probably get myself in trouble.

Yeah. So it sound like they said we should, like, we should start this brand. Was it just like they wanted you to start a brand by yourself and they would instantly stock it? So it's like helping you. Or is it literally like, yes, obviously.

No equity, nothing, no help. So obviously the beauty of being at a position is with wholesale, you can, you can do something called purchase order finance. So if you've got a purchase order from a large company like asos, you don't even need to fund it yourself. You can go to someone like Lloyd's bank and they'll give you money up front to produce the product. Well, no, sorry, that's actually a lie. So you got purchase order finance, that gives you the money at the time the product goes into the warehouse. So most companies like asos, Zalando, JD Sports, it'll all be on certain payment terms, like normally, like 90 days.

Yeah.

So for small brands, 90 days just kills your cash flow. Again, it can put you, put you out of business because you physically can't afford to outlay, let's say 50k for stock and not have that for 90 days plus production time. So I had set up purchase order finance with the last brand, which meant when it went into the warehouse, got the, the money up front from Lloyd's. But then obviously that doesn't solve the problem of how do you go to factory and then produce the goods when you maybe don't have the capital to do it. So that's when you then go to companies and ask for, I think it's product. It's basically like production finance or something. So basically you can get the money up front so that the company will then pay the factory directly and then you obviously pay a percentage. So I was in a position where, yeah, I didn't have to pay for the stock. Well, obviously I've got low, technically loaned the money to make this first collection, no equity at all. From asos. They just helped me because they wanted to get kind of give me a. Kind of a help.

Yeah.

Get us onto the website. So for me, it was like a blessing in disguise. Not only that, it put me in a position where I was able to go down a different direction. So I felt that with gym wear, I was very pigeonholed into what we were doing. So especially with a brand name, it was very alpha male. Could only be a certain person who'd want to wear it.

Yeah.

Only certain products. So you've got to think the type of people to buy it is so niche, and probably there's a cap on what revenue you can make because it doesn't transfer into women's, where probably the majority of other competitors are making their revenue. So actually, had it continued and it wasn't an issue, I'd probably gone out of business because I don't think that we could have competed or grew the revenue where we needed to go.

So it's meant to happen, you think?

Absolutely. The stars align. So, yeah. The beauty of the issue that happened was I could start the new brand and go and learn everything I learned from the first brand and then put it into the second. So I knew that with. With Mova, I needed a brand name that was, like, kind of universal. You could go across men's, women's, kids, accessories, there'd be no kind of issue with it. I wanted to just sit on his own as a brand. Like, when you go down like Bond street, see Gucci, see Louis V, see all these brands, like it. Like, it just. It sits on its own. The brand name.

Yeah.

So when I made this first, when I made Mova, I wanted to just do the same thing. I didn't really want it to mean anything, have any, like, kind of weird connotations or mean a certain thing be. Go down. Like, I didn't want it to, like, resonate with any kind of certain type of person. I just wanted just to be a brand.

So, yeah.

A bit like Zara.

Yeah. To be fair.

So I think this gave me. Yeah. When you. When you learn this and then you can start the new brand, it was just like, hit the ground running, really. And it was just like.

Yeah.

As soon as you started, we knew kind of want something.

And how long was Muscle Monkey then? Four years. Pretty long.

Four years. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I was gonna say it's pretty similar to when I had a clothing brand in uni. Yeah. Well, I wasn't. It was when I dropped out of Unique, that was initiated dropshipping Store selling jeans when I discovered Facebook ads. And then it became a brand called Dusk and my mate came involved but it was only for like nine months until the reason I had to stop that was because of the name. There was a trademark dispute.

Oh really?

It was like different. But so what was ultimately that was a decent business. Like I look back at it now and think, fuck, like you know, coulda, woulda, shoulda, but you know, just change.

The brand name, like just reload.

I mean, yeah, so well, I started it and then my mate came in. He's probably watching this, but he runs an agency now called Thor with us.

I think he might have contacted.

Called Ollie. Yeah, yeah, so I've referred him loads of people. So yeah, we kind of. Well yeah, at the time, at the time he was like more into like uni and stuff and I was trying to hustle on this brand that didn't really work. But yeah, we ended up working together with his agency anyway. But yeah, that ended up ending and yeah, it was kind of similar. But I sometimes think fuck if I'd stuck with something when I was, I know 20 at the time. I mean whatever wasn't meant to happen. But I don't think that was for me anyway to be fair, clothing.

But no, it's hard injury. So hard. I don't think you see a lot of brands cropping up and I don't think people quite understand what it takes to make it or to. To even be profitable. So the whole time like Muscle Monkey was, was running. I wasn't even taking a salary so like I was actually living at my mum's.

Out full time.

Yeah man, I was like, I was. Well, you know, I was expensive stuff but I was, I was living.

You didn't have a part time job?

No, nothing to full time on the brand. Was not, was not kind of taking anything personally as income. But I was yeah running this business still doing a lot of like big things I've done like Body Power Expo which was like a. Because like 40k.

I remember actually seeing that brand when I was. I don't know when exactly but yeah, like, yeah man. So like body size to my memory.

What Body Power?

No, yeah, yeah. So I remember knowing the brand is.

Obviously people knew it like it was especially within the industry, the fitness industry. Like people knew it especially after Body Power because like invest a lot of money into, into the stand and stuff like that. But yeah, all these, all these big investments. I always had this thing of like it will come good, it'll come good just like Stop. Don't take any money for yourself now you're in a good position, you're living at home, you don't have any outgoings really, apart from like going out and stuff like that. Just like reinvest everything. So, yeah, for the first few years, man, it's hard. Like I said, I wish I went onto YouTube and typed in how to run Facebook ads a few years earlier.

Yeah, legit. Done it. All right, little wine break as we always seem to do, about 15, 18, 19 minutes in and I'm wearing a white shirt. So this red wine back on the pod is fairly risky. But yeah, don't we all wish we were on Facebook ads in fucking 2014. But massively. So just on that then, like the home situation. Yeah, I guess. Where are you from? And then if you mentioned this, but where are you from and like. And where did that go in terms of you living at home with your mum? I think you mentioned. Yeah, doing the first brand. When did you move out? I suppose kind of two part question, just a bit on that side of things.

Well, bait. I still live. I still live at home. In a minute.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So for me, I was just smart financially.

Yeah. Building the brand. I paid a mortgage off two months ago, so that's. That helped her out. But I. For me, living at home was. Was good because it just kept me focused.

Yeah.

Had no distractions. Like obviously all my friends went to uni, I stayed at home. I just grinded and grinded, like literally had no distractions. I live in a small town called St Ives, just outside Cambridge.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. So living there was like, if I lived in London, if I lived in Manchester, if I lived anywhere, I would be distracted of going out probably like four times a week.

Maybe, maybe.

Nah. But being at home gave me, gave me the focus. I've got good support around me in terms of my mum and dad, so just helped massively, obviously. Now I'm actively looking for houses now, but I'm just finding the right place to move into. It's obviously I'm wanting to buy a place, but for me, I wanted to make sure my parents are right first. Obviously the number one thing for me was to pay my own small job before I moved out. So obviously done that now. So, yeah, the next step is to.

Yeah, I saw that on Twitter. That's pretty sick.

Yeah, next. Next step obviously is to move out.

I've not done that. Yeah.

So it's good, man.

It was. Honestly, I spent money on cars instead.

Yeah. The thing is, for me that the, the number one thing was to do that for my mum because I, she's. She. She's grafted all her life. She has been a massive inspiration to me through my whole business. So. So to be able to do that for us was massive.

Yeah. So your parents still together?

Yeah, that's together, yeah.

So it was like good family life, do you think?

Yeah, it's good, it's good. It's not too bad. I mean, I'm not trying to make.

A sob show, I'm just saying it's good.

But like, my mum's always the one who, like, my mum owns a house. Yeah, his mum's always the one who. For many years I supported the family and stuff like that. So I've seen the hustle she went through, sometimes had opportunities that she could have probably have gone further. I always think that my mum had the opportunity to do something amazing, but obviously life got in the way and she never got to the place she could have done. So obviously she, she was stuck in this. She still lives in the same house that she bought when she was 28 and she should have maybe moved two or three times and upsized, but because of certain things in life, she never got there. So that's why me as a person, like, one of the reasons why I want to do well, wanted to, like, start business, is I wanted to make sure that I could at least do something for my mum. And also, like, she, she worked so hard. Like, growing up, she'd be the person who works 24, 7, she'd be up at night working, then she'd be doing all the house chores, then she'd be cooking dinner. I've seen someone work so hard in her life and that, that is definitely rubbed off for me. Like, that's why now, within business, like, I work hard because I've had a role model who's just done that as well throughout my life as a person growing up for true.

Is she an entrepreneur?

She's not an entrepreneur, but she's a marketer. She's a very clever marketer. Yeah, my. She's had a bit. She had a business when she was younger, it went bust, she got screwed over. My dad had a business as well, went bankrupt. My granddad had a. Had a massive business in the 80s and 90s. It was like, I think 10 mil rev. So obviously nowadays that probably was more close, like 30 million in today's money. So my granddad had a massive business, but he still works. He's 82, he's in the US now he still works because, like, during the financial crisis, he basically lost his house. Had a massive house in the us. But, yeah, so I think entrepreneur entrepreneurship as well as creativity is in my. Is in my DNA. So on my mum's side, most of my family are like artists or artistic in one way. So, like, obviously mum's a marketer, but when she was younger she was like a drawer. She'd done like painting and stuff like that. Yeah, my grandma was an amazing painter. We have paintings all around our house that she's done. My. My cousin, who I'm quite close to, works a trap star. He actually does. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's a menswear designer. So he. He does. Basically does my job.

But when you get home.

Well. So you know what? I think business and pleasure can't go together.

So I think business and family.

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's not one, but it's. Yeah, man. He, like, so he. Obviously the funny thing is that he. When I was a kid, I always looked up to him as a. As a cousin and he was always doing like, graphic design and, like, he's always the cool cousin. Right. And yeah, it's funny how we've both ended up in the same industry and like, when we were. When we were younger, that was never, like, feasible that we would end up doing that. And then my other auntie, she's a. She's a painter now, does it in her spare time. And then my other auntie, who's the mum of my cousin, who works trap star, went to fashion uni or fashion college when she was younger. Yeah. So it's like, it's definitely, like, it's definitely written in the stars as DNA. It's like I feel like I've got my granddad's business acumen and then also my parents acumen that they've tried to do something. Obviously it's not worked out for them for one way or another, but obviously they had the business there, but it just didn't happen then. I've got the creative side from mum's side of the business side of the family, so.

Did you ever think about going to uni? What was the crap with that?

Never, ever, never ever thought about getting to uni. So because I started the business at 17, it was just.

Yeah, true, true.

It was never in my. In my psyche. Like, I look at some of my friends and I think, do you know what I've missed out on the uni experience. Like, I would love to have gone there and met people, but then again, like, I've gone through the sacrifice and then my friends aren't in the position that I'm in now. So it's one of them things where you've. It's got to balance up what's. What's important to you.

Yeah. Uni is a weird one. I could like debate it because I went. Yeah, I went. I technically went and dropped out literally twice.

Yeah.

Because I went and then left and then decided to go back and then left again.

You got a fat student loan.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that actually. Fuck. I haven't paid it back. I haven't paid it back. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's fucking scam. So maybe we should charge you back an extra tax.

Right?

Yeah. I mean, my opinion on uni is a weird one, I think. I mean, I don't know what else, because I guess you have to remember, like whatever you want to call it, 95, 99% of people aren't going to start a business.

Yeah, absolutely.

I've discussed this people before. It's like, you know, you've got to give summit to that most people can follow. And I think it's a good. My conclusion of it is I think it's great socially. Teaches how to live alone, whatever you can fucking. To put it bluntly, you can shag girls and drink too much and probably be depressed 90% of the time because you're hungover all the time. I think it's a bad environment for that.

Absolutely.

But education wise, I think for a good 9% of degrees, it's laughable. Yeah. I think if you're doing some of that engineering and fucking shoot me in the comments, whatever, but it's just, I think it's facts. Like I think business degrees are. And I'll say this myself because ironically I actually did entrepreneurial business management course title for six weeks right before I left. I thought, what the fuck is this? And in hindsight now, you know, none of the lecturers that ever run a business or even started a business and it just.

That's what annoys me about business advisors at place like Barclays and Lloyd's who have never had a business, how can someone advise you on business when they've never done it themselves? So I also think, like, how can teachers or people at uni who are teaching you, how can they advise you on how to do well in life when they're on, let's be honest, like a low salary and like they've not done it themselves. Like they're not Inspiring. Like it's just not the way, it's just a bit backwards. I feel like people get stuck in the rat run. It's like go to uni, then you come out, get a job, then you get a low paid job and then you get to a place in your job where you get to the threshold to start paying off a uni loan but you're still in a shit pay job.

Yeah, I think, I mean, geez, this could be a whole fucking episode. But yeah, at the end of the day, like it's the system, isn't it? Like obviously there's a system which keeps people trapped in my opinion. Like I'm not a fucking conspiracy theorist. But I just. And we spoke about it a bit on the last episode which hadn't come out when recording this, but it would have done when you watch this. And yeah, I mean, Christ. But I can see why there needs to be some structure for in place for the majority to follow. Like, I'm not suggesting I've got a better idea, I'm just saying, you know, fucking moaning on camera, saying, I just don't think uni is like as relevant as it was. And I think particularly for shit like business. Like you say, you know, if you want to be an engineer, like my twin brother, non identical twin, he'll probably never be on this is very unlike me. Like he's not entrepreneurial ultimately. Like if you're watching this, don't take it personally, but I needed engineering. I see the value in that. Yeah. And maybe like being a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, like I don't know what the word is that more vocational skills where like, you know, you have to do that to be able to do it. But shit, like I think, yeah, business is a joke. But at the same time, I don't know what, I don't have a better suggestion to be fair. I think it'd be interesting what happens over the next 10 years. Like education.

I'm not sure. I think, I think the problem is it's set up so like most people won't get to what we're doing. Like I don't think the economy is set up for like people like me. If everyone was like me and you, the economy wouldn't work.

Well.

Yeah, because who the fuck is going to get employed if everyone's trying to start a business and be this person who's going to make the next unicorn company or something? Like who's there to do that? Like the labor work? Who's there to sit in office and reply to emails, it's just not there. So that's why, like, the government has set out this thing for people just to go into this system where it makes us. It makes society work. Doesn't make, like, you rich, it just makes things, like, turn in their fucking wheel.

Yeah.

Jesus.

Actually mad the Tanjaka going here, but, yeah, because, like, basically everything other than the requirement to fucking eat and breathe is, like, made up.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Over time, society has become this thing and it makes sense again. I don't have a much better suggestion, but I think, yeah, if you're not, like, I like, jokingly, tongue in cheek, call them civilians. And I don't mean that offensively, like, I'm just saying, like, people that aren't entrepreneurs, which is fucking fine. I'm not saying it's better or worse. It's just different. Yeah, but people that aren't entrepreneurs, it's like, yeah, you're right, you're not. You're not gonna start a business. Obviously need a job. So if everyone had a business, then.

Yeah, no one's there to be employed, right?

Yeah, Like, I think I pretty much. I think it's a 99,1 split on average. Like, if you want a percent percentage, it.

That's it. But do you know what? I think most people just aren't cut out for either. Like, I speak to some people, like, friends, people who aren't friends, acquaintances, they just physically could not go through the stress, the hard work, the long hours that we go through. They can't. Like, they might think they can, but they can't. Like, if they. If they actually live the life of an entrepreneur. Sometimes when you're 41st starting out, you don't know when you're gonna get your next paycheck or you don't know when you're gonna be in a certain position where you can start earning good money. Most people don't want that. They want security.

Yeah, I think to be fair, I'm cutting you off too much here. I'm fucking passionate about it. Like, me and Tyler spoke about this, I think, on the previous two episodes ago, whatever. But I honestly believe, like, if you're getting into entrepreneurship for money, then you're not an entrepreneur. Obviously. Like, I'll be the first to say, like, the shit that motivated me when I was younger was I wanted an Audi R8. Like, stupid shit. And then you get it and realize don't mean anything.

After a month you've had it, you're like, what's the next thing?

But, yeah, like, people that for example, I don't know like E comms, massive ecom and crypto. Like you know I'm going to start a business but like if you're not thinking about it all the time, just naturally then it probably for you that's it. And it's just.

I think it has to be an absolute obsession. Has to be your lifestyle. Like it can't just be a job. Like for me like I'm consumed by E commerce, business, my brand.

Yeah.

Like it's just all I think about. And like that's when I realized that I'm different everyone else. Because when I go out with some of my friends who have normal jobs, it's not in there like different conversation. Yeah. To just be talking about all the time. I could talk about my business, about e comm 24 7. Everyone else aren't like that. So that's when you realize that we are a certain type of person that actually the majority of the society aren't.

I. Yeah. So true. I think. Yeah. I knew that in school that I wanted to do something different but I didn't know what it was at the time.

Yeah.

And fucking whatever you figure out gradually. I'm still figuring out. But yeah like. And then, and then in uni I remember feeling I was like so depressed at uni because I like a good time and shit but I just remember feeling. So I'm not joking here and this sounds fucking like weird like incel shit. And I wasn't a complete virgin at uni but I remember being out on like nights out and fucking checking. Checking my Shopify.

I do that now. I check myself.

I deleted the app like three years ago. It's unhealthy as. But maybe that's just me. I'm bipolar as. But I got to a point where.

I wasn't even checking Shopify, I was checking Google Analytics. Analytics.

Yeah.

Real time looking at contact information. That's bad payment information. Thank you. I still do that now. I'm mate. And now we're doing well. Like how. How long can you look at this dashboard and it takes away from actually the work sometimes because yeah point where you start to look at all these things.

I know exactly what you mean.

And then you'd be. You're looking at a screen, you're thinking you're working but actually how productive are you being?

It's just, just obsession.

It is, it is an obsession. It's. It's a drug. It's like. It's just like the way social media is. It draws you in, makes you look at everything, makes you scroll through Shopify and earning money is 10 times worse. It's like a massive drug addiction.

Yeah, I definitely. I deleted the app like three years ago. But yeah, I completely. Like, I have a disappointment. Vivid memories of doing that in like a nightclub and if it was bad, your days ruined.

Yeah, yeah, that's ruins your evening, right?

He's laughing, but it's fucking true. Like, yeah, it's so funny you say that because every person, there's not many of them, but like every good mate I have now that's in the E commerce space, whatever, does the exact same shit or has done the exact same shit. And people watching this I think will relate to that. Like inhumanely. Like, is that fucking right term? But I actually had a call with some. Another guy that's a bit like, like us. A guy called Max is probably watching this. Yeah, never met him. Just like someone. I thought he was Chinese for a start because he had a fucking no profile picture. Yeah. And he had just said what I think Japanese, whatever, like some fucking Chinese word. His bios. I was like, oh, I get on a call with you. He wasn't Chinese. Not that it would have been a problem, but. And he said the same thing. He said, I don't know what the conversation was, but came up like, do you still get that stress of like checking stuff and if it's going bad or good? I said, yeah, probably getting less now. I mean, certainly the past few months I've been less actively involved, but I'm sure I get it again when I launch the new brand, like next week. But yeah, it's fucked.

It's so bad.

It consumes you.

It does consume you and it does, like ruin your mood. And it's even like certain times, like, if I looked at this time last year and saw what revenue we're doing versus now, yeah, I would be like, I'd be ecstatic if I was doing what I did by 9am If I'd done that in a whole day last year, I'd be fucking buzzing. But now, if I hit a certain revenue in the morning and it's not what I want it to be, it just puts me on a shit mood for the whole day. And it's like, why am I getting myself into this trap? It's like even sometimes during the evening, we make up the revenue, like, and it's fine. So at the end of the day.

Evenings, typically, in my experience, well, especially.

With our U.S. customer base, obviously we do get a big surge like between like one in the morning and like four in the morning. So that is, that is for me when I wake up I do gauge where we at, where we're at. But obviously then again they come online again during the evening. But mate, it just your mood up bad. Like sometimes if I'm like, if I've done bad one morning and it's not where I want it to be, it's like the worst thing, I jump in my car, I'm thinking this.

Yeah. I mean it's never gonna always be up, is it? That's the thing. As long as it's like up on a monthly quality yearly trend, but especially when you're getting started and it's a new business. Like you obviously can't have a yearly trend.

Yes.

You've never had a year.

Yeah. Or like.

But yeah, it's mad. I just want to take it back then to a previous point I was going to mention because. So you said still living at home, etc.

Yeah.

And in many ways I think that's smart. But the flip side of that, I want to get your opinion on this. It's like I guess I went to uni, moved out wherever, but then I would travel like full time between like 2018 and 2020 pretty much. Or 17 and 19 even. And then I went home in between, etc. So like lived at home while I was doing all right, etc, but. And then ended up moving to them like two and a half years ago. But do you think that's like, it's like net obviously, like basically what you're saying is there's way less distractions living at home and I see that.

Yeah.

But do you think it's like net beneficial with like cause potentially? Let's just say hypothetically you move to fucking near where I live or whatever. Yeah, you're going into Mayfair every week. I don't even go out much. But like you just exposed to you know, fucking nine million pound apartment next door. There's Rolls Royces everywhere. Which makes me sound like a fucking materialistic cunt. But the point is like you see that exposure to like wealth and there's probably more chances to meet more like minded people. Not in every case, but genuinely like. Yeah, so that's a long winded question, but do you think it's.

Yeah, it's a weird one.

You've not missed out on that benefit. Potentially.

I've massively missed out on that benefit. I think I slightly touched this when I spoke to you on, on Instagram before. I was like, the one thing about me is Like, I don't like fake shit. So although, like, I'm massively motivated by all this amazing stuff, like these big fucking houses, the cars and stuff. What I don't like is, like, I don't mind networking, but I can't be a fake person. So I can't be that guy who's gonna go to that party just because so and so's there. I'm not gonna go and meet someone just because that could get me to a certain place. I've got a fucking great set of friends that support me more than anyone else would. So, like, I know for a fact that my set of friends I've got in my town just won't snake me. They support me. Like, back when I was doing my Jimmy Brand, I'd work on my stand at Body Power all weekend for free. They still now would. If I needed some help, they'd be there in a flash. Especially, obviously, Gord off camera, crazy. Like, the support is mad. Like, you don't see that often. And that's why I've been in a lucky position where I've got good people around me. Obviously I have missed out on the networking with people who are probably in a similar position or in a bigger position than me. But I think that at the end of the day, I'm focused on myself. I know what my end goal is. I know what I want to sell the brand for. I know what revenue I want to get to. Does not really matter about external things because I'm selling direct to consumer. I'm selling online. Like, does it matter if I know someone who's fucking got a business doing 10 million a year or 50 million a year, 100 million doesn't really matter because I'm in my own lane. I'm gonna build the best fucking brand in the world. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It is an interesting bet. I think it comes down to, like, the sort of person you are. Because for me, I definitely see the part about friends. I think even that's probably fairly rare. So maybe that's, like, fortunate. But for me, it was more like I just hated feeling like I was lonely in the process, to be honest. Maybe that's just me being a little bitch, but that's just.

Well, maybe so. But the thing is, for me, like, I personally, when I get to the point where I've done well and I've got some fucking book out, I will talk about the fact that I spent six years in my bedroom on my own, speaking to no one. Monday to Friday, my parents were at work. I was lonely as fuck. But that's the kind of shit that makes you want to be successful. When you're. When you're so low and you've got nothing, the only thing that's gonna get you to a certain place is just believing that you're gonna get there and like just working hard. So I still believe in that. I still think that me being in the same town I was in, still grinding hard, not having all these distractions works in my favor, I think.

Yeah.

On the flip side, we saying about all the networking, like being around people are doing really well. That also can go against you because you're gonna be around people who are potentially got other agendas, trying to snake you out, trying to understand things about you that gonna get them in certain places, potentially are gonna do certain things to you. I. I just don't think that it's the be all and end all. Personally, like, it's great to know these people, but.

Yeah, unless you want to.

Obviously, I want to sell the business at some point, but I think the only thing that's a positive about networking is when you want to finally get acquired. What other benefit is there? Obviously you got the thing about being motivated by the people in the same position as you. Like, for me personally, just seeing the stuff that you do, stuff that Fred does, motivates me to want to do better. I don't. It'd be obviously great to link up more saying.

I think, I guess most my friends that are called close friends now.

Yeah.

Like. Yeah, I say, like, I moved to London and got a place two and a half years ago with Fred and the guy called Seb when we were in very similar positions that definitely hadn't fucking made it or anything. Still haven't. He has. Definitely more than me at this point, but big up, Fred. Yeah. Fuck. So, yeah, I see what you mean in the terms of like new people, though. Like, for example, if I met someone now, you definitely experience that. But like, well, probably less so for me now because I'm not driving a flash car at the minute, but soon come, bro.

Don't worry.

Yeah, it's an interesting viewpoint, actually. It's kind of deep.

It is, mate. I just think that, like, for me personally, like everyone will tell you is like, I keep my circle so small, I don't let anyone in. I don't let. Don't.

If someone even come on this podcast, he was reluctant.

Yeah, well, yeah, a bit reluctant. Don't really want to talk about stuff.

But I'M gonna use him.

Huh?

No, I'm joking, but no.

Do you know what? I've known you for ages. We've been friends anyway. We've chatted, got to know you. So I feel like we're friends anyway even though we're e friends.

Yeah.

But yeah, I just think you gotta be. You'll be careful, man. There's a lot of people out there, especially in business when they understand the kind of numbers you're doing. It just all they want is how can they make money off you. And just gotta be careful who you surround yourself with. Make sure people aren't putting down a certain path just because they see a benefit for themselves. I just think people got be careful and be clever.

Yeah. Fuck. Okay, so just on that then. I know we spoke about it very briefly off camera previously. Yeah. So like there's a bunch of shit I want to come back to but to speak about this now because it's relevant. So the whole like you've mentioned a few times. I've seen it myself, I've done it myself in the past as well. Like you like share numbers and like screenshots or whatever of your brand, you know, say X amount in one day, which is great and definitely turns heads. Like I've had debates with people and like there's just a general debate, you know, like certain people with even bigger brands do that and others don't, etc. Some people say like you shouldn't share the numbers because what you're saying is people will use you or potential to like try and rip you off. But then if you're saying that, why'd you playing devil's advocate, why do you share the numbers? But then obviously, yeah, I see like pros and cons to both sides. So like. So I think you on that.

Well like obviously the, the normal civilian sees social media as a way to like post about themselves, post about a lifestyle. They're trying to get a few double likes or whatever, whatever they're trying to do. I don't know what it is now but like only fans. Yeah, exactly. Trying to get an only fans subscription. But when it comes, when it comes to business and making money, social media is a vehicle to increase your profile, increase your business, increase your brand and make more money. So like I'm quite God in the sense I don't post too much stuff about the ins and outs of the business day to day. But obviously I've been guilty of posting screenshots of revenue numbers.

Well, yeah, I don't think it's Guilty. It's just.

Yeah. You know, but me personally, it's a way to get people talking about the brand. I think when you start, when you see, obviously in your story, you post revenue and then you've got 1500 people looking your story, that's getting shared, they're talking about that. They're getting shared around people. They're talking about people's group chats. Movie is doing this amount. That is a positive brand marketing.

I know. It's been in my group chats.

Yeah, well, good. That's good.

Because it's not from me, but from others.

So. So I want. I don't care who's sharing. I want people to talk about the brand. So I post stuff because I want people to talk about Movai. And ultimately it's gonna make the brand bigger and it's gonna make more people buy stuff. And it might not make you buy stuff because you're. You're in E Com or you're in the industry, but for the normal person who likes a brand anyway, when they're seeing the brand pop up.

I'm actually wearing Mova now, by the way.

Exactly.

Just a fucking shout out.

Which was repping.

I think I bought that. I think. I think I knew it was your brand, but I still bought it full price.

Love that. Appreciate the support. But yeah, no, it's like when people are seeing a brand pop in, they think it's gonna sell out and stuff. It's gonna push them to buy. It's gonna make the brand bigger. I always said there's a few brands I've seen that have got massive media attention, where actually maybe they got that media attention when they weren't as big as. Or weren't. Didn't have a bigger. Didn't have the revenue that we have right now. But they.

Gymshark, yeah.

You know, they're a 5 million revenue. They get a national paper.

I do remember that.

We're obviously, we're bigger than that now. We get no media attention. But I'd say the biggest thing about Gymshark and why they've got their unicorn state, unicorn status and got to a point where they sold part of the business and been invited to a billion pounds is it's that repetitive PR stunt they put out about Ben Francis being younger. He's built this massive brand. Well, if another brand done the same thing and tried to build their, like, PR campaigns and got into the papers and got people talk about them, they could get quiet for more.

I do agree.

You could be an underground brand. Underground brand at 30 million revenue. If no one fucking knows about you, you're not going to get acquired. You're not going to get, you're not going to inflate your revenue, your, your acquisition price. So I'd say look at in the style. Yeah, they IPO'd over 100 mil when they were making a loss every year. Why did they IPO for over 100? Because they got good PR. Do you know what I mean? That's.

Yeah, Channel 4 documentary behind the fashion or something.

Yeah. So obviously a great pr. They had a great documentary. The guy behind it is always in the papers talking about his big story.

I follow him.

I follow him as well. He's bought my stuff as well. If he tries to copy it for a Menzo brand, I'm going to notice that, don't worry. But yeah, so obviously he is in the papers because of his success, even though he made a loss every year. Right. His revenue is good, but he makes a loss. Then he IPOs for 100 million. But let's say another brand is at 30 million revenue and makes a good profit, but no one knows about them. They're never going to be able to IPO for over 100 million because no one knows about them. Yeah, so it's about, you have to get media attention, you have to get pr, otherwise you're not going to. If that's what you want anyway. If you want to get acquired, if you want an ipo, you have to get the media to talk about you or get people to at least talk about you.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many things I want to talk about now, but just on the acquisition point, because I feel like that's like, you know, it's like stereotypically at least. And in my opinion, it's like winning the Champions League. As an entrepreneur, like if you get a big acquisition, you know, go buy a fucking yacht and whatever, do the next thing fucking printing money for your life. Like when. What's the goal there? Like when do you think that's gonna happen? And I guess the second part of the question is, you know, like, do you think, is it just about the money then? Is it. Some people say, well, if you, if you just aim is get acquired, it's about the money, blah, blah, blah. Like, do you actually like what you do then? What'd you do afterwards? It's like seven part question.

But of course is a hard one. It's one that runs around my head myself. Like I'm trying to think actually what is it that drives Me, but I am passionate about fashion and being in the process of building a business and a brand. And like, when you've got. When you've got people who weren't buying your stuff and then post on Instagram and saying how much they love the stuff, there's no better feeling. So I love the process of building that brand and, and seeing people enjoy it themselves. But obviously I want to get acquired. I want to make my family. I want to get in a position where my family down the generations are going to be sound and safe because I've done something great. But I want to be remembered in the future because I've built some amazing business that's been acquired and people know about it. Like, that's what drives me. It's not just about the acquisition. It's about building something massive.

It's about building something, a legacy in it.

Legacy. Like, for me, I say this to loads of people. Like, for me, legacy is like the most important thing. Like, I don't give a really about obviously, I give a.

About getting gray hairs saying this.

Yeah, I care about the numbers. Obviously, I want to. I want to be like, secure. But the thing that motivates me the most is I want to die and people to remember me for doing something out, extraordinary, like out the ordinary. Do you know what I mean? So for me, that's my biggest motivation. And getting acquired is one of those things that's going to get you remembered.

Yeah, I definitely agree. Is there a number that you're going for? I mean, there probably is. It probably changed.

There's a number that I want. There's a number that I want to go for. That's probably absurd. That may or may not happen. But obviously I want to go for the 100 mil. So you have to. You've got a cool. Everyone in ecom aims for 100 mil. If I get 50 mil, I'll take it. But I think anything under that, I don't. I think I'll be doing myself this justice. I think my brand's too good to not take more than 50 million mil. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you think what we're doing now, if you think of other brands.

You got a timeline on that.

I think I could do it on in three years, where we're at now. I think you got to think that I. Although mov just turned three years old, I've been in the industry for eight years. I've been grinding since I was 17. Like, I've been through a lot. Like, I've only Started taking a salary from the last 18 months. Like I grinded hard, you know what I mean? So although I'm just starting the journey of mova, I feel like as a person, I've been through fucking a long, long journey myself. And I feel like the acquisition is especially where at as a business now it's not there yet, but it's not too far away in terms of. It's not 10 years away, it's a few years away.

Yeah. Let's say Tomorrow you get 100 million quid or not tomorrow, but you know, hypothetically, in a few years, whatever, what'd you do then? You're only fucking still in your late 20s at that point.

Mid 20s, mate. Oh, look, if I've done it right.

Three years, whatever, you know, say you do it 28, 29, whatever.

So I think that the thing is I would, I would obviously invest in certain assets that would generate me an income, number one. Secondly, it's what I don't. I've got a debate with myself. Will I go back in the trenches? I don't know if I've got all that money, would I, would I want to have.

Wouldn't it?

Yeah, I just don't know. Like, I feel like I've got a love for E commerce, fashion and business, but if I had that much amount of money sitting in my bank, would I want to get back in the trenches? Because I know how hard it is. But at the same time, I feel like anyone who's at our stage of E Com has almost like a blueprint of like we could probably start a product and just blow up fairly fast, I'd say, because we know marketing, we know everything around production and stuff. So I thought I could start a new brand and probably scale it quite fast. But would I want to go through that process of doing that? Because obviously profits year one, two, even if we're doing seven figures, revolution might be fairly low. Like if you're doing 100.

Well, I don't think, okay, at that point you got 100 mil.

Yes, but then it's just a hobby, isn't it? It's just it depends whether you want to have a brand as a hobby or do you just want to live your life and be a baller?

Well, I think to be fair, that comes back to the like being self aware in it because, yeah, I mean, unfortunately I've not made 100 mil yet. But like if I do, I think I said this in the title of podcast as well. I do genuine think having got to know myself over the past seven years of whatever. I've been doing this fucking econ thing now. Particularly in the past year with all that shit that happened. Like, if I made 100 mil, I honestly reckon I'd still want to start the next thing. Yeah, I actually do. I just can't envision myself I'd do it, but I'd have fucking rolls Royce, Cullinan, LaFerrari, four slaves, eight Richard Mills and a fucking custom pink dial Patek. But. And I'd have like 100%. I feel like Elon Musk working for me or some shit. But people like me and the other.

People that are like doing what we're doing, it's just like, it's just in our DNA. Just want to start brands, want to have the next thing. It's like what we spoke about off camera. Like we're the type of people where like, it's about the buzzers. It's not just about the money. It's about the buzz you get when you get the sale. When you're doing your first six figure month, when you're doing. When you get a seven figure year. Like getting these numbers. It's like. Is a drug, isn't it? Right.

Yeah.

It makes you feel a certain way. It's like no money can make you feel a certain way. Is getting all these like Shopify notifications or if you don't have.

It's not even just money to be fair. Like, I mean, maybe disagree but like it's just. I think there's something amazing about the fact you can just go from an idea or thought in your mind. Yeah. To just creating like a thing and an econ brand and business is like for me and you and loads of others is the most relevant vehicle to do that. But it's just like even like this new brand I'm starting, like I was fucking. I'll show you after. Maybe I was packing the fucking first hundred because I had to get around some lead time with the stockers. I fuck this. I'm literally gonna pack it myself. Yeah. I don't care. Like I've done millions in revenue in the past, all that. But it's just I still get a.

Little buzz from that eight figures plus in revenue.

Yeah. And then fucked up massively in the last year. But I still get that fucking. I felt like a 16 year old again, like packing that shit. I still get that buzz.

Absolutely.

And that's the thing that, like, that's what it is.

That's one of those things. I don't think that most people go through. Like, when I take it back to when I started my first brand, I remember a point where we got an Enterras house, and a van turns up outside the house, and 90 boxes gets unloaded into our lounge. That's small.

Yeah.

Takes up the whole lounge. The driver asks if, do we have a. A. What's it called? A tail lift or whatever?

Yeah.

And wait, we're in a. We're in a residential street. Yeah. Do you think we'll have one of these to pick up a pallet? No, but, like, that going through that and the buzz of getting all these boxes into your house and then I'm unpacking it. It's like part of the process and part of what you love. And it's part of probably what most people don't want to go through, what makes us us. Right?

Yeah. That's so true. That's kind of deep.

It's deep. It's mad. But some of these things are the most memorable things in your journey. When you're literally at ground zero and you're packing boxes, you're unloading stuff from vans. Take it inside your apartment or your house. These are the things that make entrepreneurs entrepreneurs. And it's what takes people to certain places that most people won't go to, because most people would not do that. They just wouldn't have the ball to do it, or they couldn't be asked to do it or just not for them.

Yeah. Fuck, yeah. It's so true. Because, like, yeah, like, I've experienced, like, elements of, like, making it and shit in the past. Like, I had my dream car, like, twice. Fucking had a Ferrari last year. And I. Most people looking at think, like, oh, it's fucking. Like, that's the dream life. But I swear to God, right now, and this might be the deepest thing I've ever said on the podcast so far. And I'm not just saying this. I got more of a thrill receiving the first samples for this new brand. And like, seven years into it, I get a fucking chills saying this than I did collecting that Ferrari.

Yeah. 100.

That's the realest ever. And if you take anything from this podcast, like that is it, like. If you don't feel like that, I don't think it's for you, like, pursuing building brands or whatever. Like. And I still think cars are sick, and I want to have another sick car or whatever. And they're not taking anything away from that.

It's a byproduct of.

It's not. It's not it, like, yeah, and you have to. I think you have to go through experience in that and like, oh, like this materialistic desire of mine that I had since I was 16. Yeah, it's sick for like a minute and it still is sick, but it's not. It's not like that. The fulfilling thing.

100. It's the same with me when, like, I literally had a screenshot on my phone from 2016 of, like, a Range Rover that I really wanted, I could never afford, and I finally got one, I didn't really fucking do anything for me. Like, when it turned up, I was.

Like, yes, the first week.

It's just. Yeah. After that I'm like, oh, why did I not get the other? Why did I not get the next car? Like, Yeah. I think when people realize that materialistic things do not actually fulfill you is like, when you have to. Yeah, you have. You have to understand that and move forward with it and realize that the thing that fulfills you is the journey and, like, what you actually do in day to day and how that impacts you as a person. So, like, doing, like, picking up the samples, even coming up with the brand itself. That's the enjoyable, enjoyable bit. Right?

Yeah. And I think as well. And me, like, I probably haven't spoken enough about your actual business and people will be like, I want to start a clothing brand. How do I do that? But I think this is as important and more interesting in a way.

Yeah.

But just on that point, like, yeah, I think a lot of people. And I'm. Maybe I'm wrong because I'm just cynical in ways. But, like, I think a lot of people have looked at. You probably feel the same. Like, my journey over the past few years, like, you know, the high level on Instagram, whatever, and think, oh, like, he's got that sick car, you know, living in a cool place. But. But they're forgetting there's like a huge list of tangible skills required to even start a fucking ecom brand, let alone a successful one, of course. Like, even just like, with this fucking little brand I'm starting now. Like, I did all the website myself. I did. I knew about product sourcing. So, you know, you build that skill set.

Yeah.

And I don't know what it is. Like, I think it's. It's like similar when people look at, like, for example, someone like Jack Grealish or whatever, like, you know, young lad on 300 grand a week, but you're forgetting you couldn't do what he does 100%. You might look easy from sitting on sofa and I take the piss when I'm watching football. So I'll put that in. Yeah, cool. I'll put that in. Like if we should have won the Euros. But like, if I got on that pitch, I'd look like an absolute retard.

Well, I think that's why so many people want to start, try and start clothing brands because they, they see it on social media, they think, oh, I could do that as well. And they realize it's actually a lot harder than they think. And it's all the stuff that goes around it, like even me personally, like, you talking about like sharing revenue figures. I'll share that, but won't share all the shit we do during the week. Like samples turned up wrong. Like things getting delayed, like fucking losing money. Like all this stuff that people just do not see. And it's probably partly people, it's our fault for not sharing that kind of stuff. But you just generally don't show those lows. But yeah, people just do not understand what it takes to really like do well in, in this industry. It's a hard, hard slogan. It's like some of the stuff we've been through is like so difficult thing. A lot people to crumble. Jamming.

Yeah, I definitely think there's a problem in. Well, not problem but just like the reality is in like social media, obviously, like no one shares fucking and myself included until very recently when I just felt like an urge to fucking talk about all that shit. But yeah, like, people just don't. It's so weird how. Well, it's refreshing. How refreshing it is to people when they see you talk about like the hard shit.

Of course. Do you know what? I've been like in town or been in the gym and people said to me before, like, oh, would like, what do you do? You just like chill at home all day with a brand. It's like, are they on another planet? Like, they don't understand that actually the hours we put in is like 10 times what maybe a normal employee puts in. We're there working all evening, we're there working all day. People are taking lunches, we're still working through lunch. Like it's just a different lifestyle. Like most people just are not equipped or not able to do the hours and, and solve the problems we do. So even a little thing like I see is like when you're saying you made your own website, the normal person would honestly not know how to do that. Like, yeah, it wouldn't even compute in their brain that they need to, like, if they don't know it, go onto Google and search how to make.

That's literally how you saw it.

Yeah. And I see a lot of people where I almost feel like the. The younger people of today just don't under. Just don't get it. It's weird as it sounds like they just don't use their common sense. They don't. They're not, like, curious to find out how to do things. So I feel like for me, personally, as an entrepreneur, being curious and finding out how to do things is probably my biggest trait. Right.

Yeah.

But most people just don't have that in them to do it, which for me is very strange.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of an example. It's quite poignant. Is that the word, big word?

Yeah.

Because I've literally been in the fucking, like. But I'm back to square one, building this next brand, but obviously with loads of experience. So I feel like compounding, playing again. But, yeah, I'm trying. Like, I'm doing a product in an industry that I knew nothing about. So, like, I'm literally, like, I got on a call with a supplier and just said, I know a shitload about how to build brands and I know what I'm doing, like, when it comes, when we launch it. But literally, like, quote, I know fucking nothing about this product. So please tell me, like, I don't know this, I don't know this, I don't know this. How does this work?

Yeah.

Like, people that. Yeah, so true.

People just wouldn't ask the question. It's like.

Or they just assume that they should know, and if they don't know, it's not for them.

Yeah.

And for me, it baffles me rather than, like, get to know.

Yeah. And I see so many people do that through life. It's like they're in a job and they're just not curious. They just do not find out the answer. Or they wait for someone to say, do this next. It's like they're a robot. They're waiting for people just to give them instruction, because that's not the right way to be. You need to be the kind of person who's actively trying to find the answer. And that's the type of person who not only does well in business, but progresses in their careers. Those type of people are the ones who, if they are choosing a corporate career, are the ones who become the people on six figures or more than that, because they're the ones who show their bosses that they've got a Bit about them.

Yeah, I think I read some. I think it was Andy Frisella and he said there's like, this is again pretty, like tongue in cheek. There's like three types of people. There's like people that can barely even follow a list of tasks and they're like low skilled workers or whatever. Then there's like people that can, when they're told what to do, they can do it really well. And then there's people who can decide what they need to do and then execute upon it. Absolutely. I reckon if you put me in a room with a laptop in six months, it gave me like a thousand quid, I can start a brand, maybe.

Get to Mil rev.

Never scaled it too quick. But don't do that, do you know what I mean? Like the realest thing, like you can lose money and stuff, but you can't lose like experience and like the way you think about things.

Definitely. And people say that to me is like, if you like weren't doing what you're doing today, what would you do tomorrow? Be like, start a new brand. And you're the living proof of that. You've been through that, you've done that, you've set up some amazing brands. I said to you off camera, some of the brands that you've started, like, you've got an eye for branding and product and your next one is going to be bigger and better because you've learned how to, you've learned all these skills and you've just got an eye for product, like what you can see off screen. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

And the next one will be better, definitely, yeah.

Facts, facts, bro. Can I just say, probably won't be able to hear you, but what about can I be able to hear. But basically the other day he's messaging me saying, oh, we got to go to your seminar, learn about properties, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, he's the one.

With like earning millions and whatever in this brand and he's still coming to me saying I want to like learn extra stuff about properties, blah, blah, blah, trying to drag me to a seminar with him to go learn about properties and how to get into it.

I thought you're still trying to learn all this stuff on top of what you're doing.

I just thought a lot about like people like YouTube.

I don't know.

Yeah, I hope we can hear that.

It's a pursuit of, pursuit of not knowledge, isn't it? Like for me, like, I want to always pursue new, new knowledge. And how is that going to impact myself and what opportunities could that arise, do you know what I mean? So that's why I would know other stuff. Like obviously my, my number one thing is fashion and econ, but I still want to acquire knowledge about other parts of business that could maybe impact me in the future, especially once, hopefully once I get acquired with that money. You want to go down different avenues potentially and you need to know that. You need to have the knowledge to get to a place where you can capitalize on it.

Yeah. Yes. So deep you can speak about all day. Yeah. The problem is with this podcast, we've. I fucking booked dinner too early and we're gonna have to go in like 15 minutes. But we should definitely do part two.

Right.

Do a part two of this because. Yeah, I think, I think this is the most. We've gone into some interesting avenues here. Maybe it's the fucking red wine and vodka, I don't know. But I think it's also just very like minded. It's fucking true. But just bringing it back to Mova then. It's Mova, not mobile.

Right. Mova. Got it.

Because I think that's what people want to know watching this shit. They might think we're just waffling. Like what's the biggest challenge right now as a three. Three years in. You're in probably in many ways like, like no man's land. Like people think you're doing really well. So. Well, you are doing well by the sounds of it. But like, but like you obviously have challenges as a founder, a single founder.

Yeah.

That maybe not a lot of other people know about or.

Yeah.

Et cetera, et cetera.

I think that one of the things is supply chain, especially with what we're going through in terms of like Covid and China. There's like electricity shortages and stuff like that they're putting onto factories. So we're having a massive issue with supply chain, but not just because of external factors. It's just that because our units are growing so fast.

Yeah.

Whereas potentially in the, in the past, maybe two factories could have serviced all of our production. We're now getting to a point where our factories cannot service us and we're getting delayed. So that's hurting our revenue massively because our products are getting delayed. We can't bring them out when we say we're going to bring them out. So obviously I've got an amazing merchandiser, Rosie, who's forecasting all our stock figures and how much we need to bring in. When you're forecasting a certain Revenue for having a certain product in stock and then it's no longer going to be there because it's delayed. When you're kind of playing at these kind of numbers, it massively affects the business. So number one, that's a massive thing. So the big thing we're looking at now is just a massively increase our supply network and find new factories around the world. So if any issues occur, we've got other places to go. The second thing is growing the team and growing the team effectively. So bringing the right people in, obviously you can, you can employ people, but if they're not the right fit for your business, they're going to be a massive disadvantage to you and it could be actually a negative move. So it's taking the right time to find the right people to come and join us. Especially with our location being outside of London or Manchester for fashion.

Yeah, very true.

There's certain jobs, positions that we're struggling to fill because we just can't find the right people that fit our business. Thirdly, it's just Facebook, iOS 15.

Yeah. Is it 15 or 14?

Wherever it is, I don't even know.

25.

It's an issue. We're, you know, reporting's all over the gaff. So, you know, we are, we are struggling with that. So we're just having to change our strategy and stuff like that. But the good thing is we're growing massively. Going in the right direction, I'd say. The other thing is also where we're growing internationally is deciding who's our customer in each country, what products do they buy, how can we localize the website, how can we speak to each customer? So if we're, if we've got certain percentages of revenue from certain countries, how does that change from each country? And if we want to grow different countries, how do we speak to them to ensure we can grow?

Yeah, interesting. We're diving to that as well. Another quick fire question then, relatively, who do you consider your biggest competitor and like most on the radar? I want you to say, I don't.

Know who it is. I would definitely say it's mdv.

I knew you'd say that.

Definitely. I think I would say, you know, if, if anyone from MD were listening at this point of year three of our business, we are way ahead of where they were at year three. We've not even launched women's yet. So you got, remember that women's for them.

You plan on doing that?

We're launching women's in December, so watch out for that. I personally think that women's wear is going to be double what we're doing for menswear. So I generally believe that we're on a. On a massive upward curve and just looking at what other brands have done at our stage of the company, we're very ahead of what other people are doing. So we've. As long as I don't massively fuck up. Running on a good upward. Upward curve still.

Yeah. Interesting. But maybe MDB will have to buy you.

No, I still. I get reese in my DMs chatting shit sometimes, so.

Chatting shit sometimes?

Yeah.

As in, like hating?

Yeah, a few times.

Do you know what?

I think the issue. I. I have. I have respect for him. He's done very well. But I think both our brands are looking at very similar references when we're designing, when we're looking for the next thing to come out with. So there's certain times where we do come up with products that might look.

Similar, I have to say. And it's not.

It's not on purpose. Yeah.

I think the whole brand saying that other. Particularly clothing, because most competitive brands saying other brands are copying them because they're doing something. Something similar is just ludicrous, like.

Absolutely.

There's obviously going to be overlaps and in a very close to identical times.

The big thing that brands got to realize is you're complaining about people copying you, but you're copying the high street. Sorry? You're copying the high street and also the runways.

Yeah.

So you're copying Gucci, you're copying Givenchy. So you're taking your inspiration for Givenchy making the design, and then you're moaning at someone for doing the same because it looks similar to yours. Well, you're looking at the same reference, so of course it's gonna look similar to yours because everyone's looking at the same thing.

And it's also an item of clothing, so.

Exactly. And in a few months, no one's gonna give a fuck about it.

You're gonna have two arms if it's a T shirt.

Exactly. Do you know what? There's enough. There's enough to go around for everyone to have a good dinner. Enough of the pie. I mean, there's. There's so much, so many people out there. People need to stop worrying about other people. Just focus on themselves. Because the world is so big, the market is not get impacted by someone who's got a brand that's doing 20 million in revenue. There's so much money out there. I don't think people realize Is like if me and you went toe to toe with a brand, it's really not going to impact us.

If I realize that when you go on a plane at like night time or obviously just a plane in general, but like you're flying over a fucking like world for like I don't know, 11 hours. If you go into like barley or some. You're going 600 miles an hour for 11 hours and there's people everywhere below you.

Exactly.

There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people seeing. But you get the point.

There's so many people out there, it really does not matter. Like everyone's got if, if everyone's, if anyone's got the kind of idea to start a brand, there's enough to go around for everyone to do.

Well, yeah, 100 thing as well. I just think, yeah, there's basically no such thing as saturated market because there's an angle on everything and everything. All right, final question because purely because we're time pressed on this one and we'll do an episode too, definitely. It's still a banger episode I think. But this is a cheesy question, but I just thought of it like, because I think a lot of people watching will relate. So if you could give one bit of advice, your 17 year old self then watching, listening, because you were 17 like you said when you started.

Yeah.

What would it be?

Not be so naive. I think when anyone's starting out business, there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna try and tell you certain things, maybe dangle a few carrots, tell you you could do something or make a certain amount of money if you take their help. But you gotta remember everyone in business is out there to make their own money. So just be very careful with who you work with, who you deal with and just stay in your own lane and be just very aware of what's around you. So I think one of the biggest takes is like especially in the fashion industry, there's obviously be a lot of people who are trying to start up clothing brands who want to go into the fashion industry. Once you start a brand up, the traditional way to get into stores and make money is going to a fashion agency. And what that is is you'll have someone who's got a showroom in London or Manchester, they stuck all your clothes in their showroom. And the idea is that stores like asos, JD Sports, Topman, when they were around, would come in, look at your clothing and then buy your clothing based on what they've seen. But the issue is the fashion agency would take between 10 to 15%, maybe even 20% of your revenue from that deal. Just have your stuff in their showroom. So on the outside that might sound fine, it's a small percentage to take for maybe a massive reward. But the, the reality is, is that they're to fuck you over. You gotta remember they're gonna make money out of you. And there's something called agency law that if you decide at any point that you want to leave the agency, if they've made you £100,000 in sales, you owe them a whole year's worth of commission if you want to leave. So there's been certain brands that have made millions out of agencies and then they want to leave because they realize getting fucking ripped off and then they've got to pay whole year's worth of commission to that agent. And the issue is that can put people out of business. And it makes small brands very, very kind of exposed to that and going out of business. And these agents are top salespeople and they're gonna try and tell you what they can to try and make just a small buck out of you. So they'll try and dangle that carrot. Like I said, they're gonna try and tell you that you can be the next fucking whatever, biggest brand in the world, just so they can maybe make a few thousand pounds out of you. So just be aware of what's around you. Try and do things yourself. Try and approach stores yourself if that's the avenue you want to go down. I'd always say try and go direct to consumer. Right?

Yeah.

I think that's probably the way to scale with a small team. But just be aware of what's around you and don't take what people say as gospel because that's the worst thing can do as a. As a young kid.

Sweet, big value, right? Yeah, that was a good one. I think I could probably go on for like five hours, but we've got to go out. But we'll do an episode two and I reckon we get you on for episode two. I felt bad you sat over there off camera.

Yeah, but I got my best, my best mate, by the way, who supported me from the start. He's. He's off camera, but next episode will be on.

Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I guess. Hope you enjoyed that episode. As I said before, listen to it wherever the you want, whether that's Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, this podcast will be Going places, Fire. And yeah, we'll see you in the next one. Cheers for watching. Peace.

Nice one.