Music Money, Live Shows, Touring & Learning the Industry - Deeps | Midnight Podcast Episode 11

Right, we're back with episode 11. And this. We're mixing up a bit this week because firstly, I've not got red wine. So it's a sober podcast. We'll see how that affects things. For those not watching, I normally have red wine. And then we've actually got a fucking musician on the pod for the first time. And yeah, I was just saying. Deep. So let me introduce himself in a second. But this was never meant to be, like, exclusively an E. Com podcast or even just an entrepreneurial podcast. But I guess in many ways, in my opinion, it's really just about getting fucking interest in people that I want to speak to and have an excuse to sit down with for, like, 90 minutes too, and just, like, hear their stories and shit. Because I probably. Well, I guess most people don't know, but I used to be, like, massively into music. Like, never thought I was good enough to do it, like, professionally was in, like, bands and shit. If you go back and Google me or YouTube me, like Matthew Kelly One Direction cover or some shit, there's like 4,000 views and some Niall Horan cover and people saying I look like him in, like, 2012, then realize it wasn't for me. And then recently I've kind of come up with, like, an obsession of freestyle rapping when I've had a coffee in the morning. But again, it's probably not something I should pursue. But I've always just been obsessed with music, and that was kind of why I wanted to get you on. Obviously, we know each other from, like, probably like a year and a half, two years ago, originally. I just see the shit you're starting to do now. It's cool. And I think, yeah, it's just an interesting story, man, so you can just drop that a little bit. Gonna be in your face. Yeah. But, yeah, I guess first question is just like, I honestly, I know like, relatively little about your. Well, pretty much fucking nothing about your background, to be fair. So I'm learning as much as anyone listening. So I guess just like, what's your story? Up to this point?

How do I get into music? Well, so for that, you gotta go back to sort of when I was very, very small. And I say on any podcast or any interview I do, it's always, always comes down to my granddad, who's already a musician himself. And that's just something that I'm privileged to have. A lot of people, especially from my background, don't have that same privilege to have someone in music in their family already, because it can be Kind of tough for people to get into music, especially from Asian backgrounds and things like that. But yeah. So literally when I was about three years old, he had a home studio already and he used to just get me in when I was just a little nipper. And we were just doing covers of like, Reach for the Stars. And any song I was feeling at the time, like, if I was singing it around the house or like doing anything, he'd be like, oh, just come in and let's record it. And it's mad because he still has those same recordings even to this day. And it was just like his, like, not even guilty, to be fair. Okay, that's actually a sick idea. But no. Yeah. So he was just nurturing like my interest from like a really young age and then got to like age of seven or something like that. And I was getting piano lessons.

Yeah.

Problem for me was the piano lessons when you're younger and when you're like kind of forced into doing them, they're not very enjoyable. And you're not doing it out of passion. You're kind of just doing it as like a chore. I don't know if you've ever had something that like, is similar to that, but I was kind of doing it as a chore. So my interest slowly started to fade within a few years. It wasn't really that hard because it was like, oh, it's piano practice day and you've got homework and like, it's.

Just, you know, I mean, I. Lessons. Actually, I remember that shit when I was like 11 years old and I.

Didn'T really like sort of all the theory side of music and all like the techie and brainy side of it. I just like the passion and things like that. Can you lose interest real quickly? So anyway, I lost interest in piano after a few years and then I picked it back up again later on because I think I watched someone, one of my friends play like Numb by Linkin park or something on the piano.

Yeah.

Classic. Absolute banger. But watched them play it and I was just like, oh, I think if I, like put my head down, I could actually play that. Because obviously I knew like piano from my lessons. And that's where like the passion side started kicking in. Because then you're playing songs that you listen to and you've replicating them and then you change that to then doing something similar to rather than the exact same. And all of a sudden you have like your own composition or piece. And then when I got my laptop about age 15 that had GarageBand and Logic and all that sort of stuff on it. Then I started trying to play around with the sounds in Logic. And then you have in there, you have your 808s and you have all your. All your cool sounds that you can't play on the piano. Yeah, and then, yeah, I was just making music basically when I was in school. GCSE level, they were prompting you to make songs anyway if you're doing music. And then I took it at college and college, for me was the sort of real starting point for my confidence because before college I really didn't like performing in front of people and college was really, like, good for my development because they're always putting us in performances in front of people, in front of crowds, in front of parents, just doing, like these little shows. But that really gave me a confidence booster after college, straight away, put some of my own music out and just like, throw myself in the deep end almost.

Yeah.

So I always knew I didn't want to go to university and go that way around things. But, yeah, I put that EP out. It did really well, actually. Way better than I expected it to do. And then, yeah, that was basically the start of my journey.

Yeah, I did music or as level as well and then quit because I couldn't fucking read music. And it was like. I mean, I was decent at music. Like I said it was never going to be my thing, but, yeah, I couldn't do the technical stuff.

What was it you played? Did you play any guitar?

Yeah, guitar. Oh, mad guitar. And sang. But then. And a bit of drums and shit. Because I feel like everyone can play drums if you got any rhythm. But yeah, never like piano or anything fancy, like.

No, but I could say the same. I don't play guitar.

But, yeah, true.

I fortunately have just amazing guitarist Callum. He does it for me. So, yeah, that was another great thing that I have recently just completely unlocked a new style and potential that I didn't realize I even had. As soon as, like, he started playing guitar for me and I could actually access that instrument and all of its potential, like, my music just went off in completely different trajectory.

So see, like, how does that work then? Because there's a lesbian, I want to come back to you. But because I saw. That's probably the guitarist I saw on the video of your Guild Hall.

Yeah, yeah.

And then is he like, full time for you, then?

No, no, no. So I have, like a really sick team. I have guitarist Callum. I have a drummer, Finn. I have two content creators, Huen and Tom Heughan. You know?

Yeah.

And Tom, I have now a lighting engineer as well, Eleanor. And they don't just solely do my stuff, but when my things come around, like, they're so passionate. And the amazing thing is, like, I hand picked them. They're all from my area as well, but I just hand picked them because, like, I saw a potential in each and every one of them, like, similar to my own. I knew that where they're at now is just scratching the surface of where they'll be in like five years. And my goal is to actually have them as full time creators and content creators. I don't really think that in the industry there are too many people who just do solely like one artist stuff. But I want to be able to put them on to be in places that they can do it for everyone else.

Are they like sessionized, is that they'd be called essentially?

No, a session artist kind of goes in and does it for anyone. If, you know, like, if you're a session drummer, then you can go and session drum for any band and you just fill in and do the drums if, like they need you. Yeah. But yeah, they're my band. So, like, if you imagine, I don't know, an artist, like just take someone random like Tom Grennon, like his band will be the same all the time and they'll only do music for him, I suspect.

Yeah.

Like when it's live shows, you'll only ever see them on stage of him. You won't see them on stage of like, Jesse. I don't know.

Yeah, true. Where is hometown then? Portsmouth.

Right? Portsmouth. Yeah. South coast, which is out of the loop a little bit.

Yeah.

London is where everything's like really hot. But Portsmouth. There are a few things going on in Portsmouth, I think anywhere. Which is the beautiful thing about music in general moment is that anywhere is kind of like on the up when it comes to music because it's so accessible now if you have a laptop, like a lot of cities now have a studio, like a good studio as well. Good quality studio where people can go record and do things. Because, like the interest in wanting to rap and people exploring the potential in the industry is just like me. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I'm never gonna release. Yeah.

But a lot of people just some people just think they can rap and can't. But some people actually are just like exploring their potential. And like, there's a lot of artists in the world that are like huge now that maybe would never have even thought about rapping or thought about being an artist or Thought about being a musician.

Yeah. And you think like social media and just like access to shit.

Yeah, it's just like that, man. It's crazy. Social media is the, the biggest thing. We might get onto that a bit later. But that's pretty much how I'm. How I'm on what I'm on currently.

Yeah. So like, would you say there was a time when you decided, like, I'm gonna pursue this or is it more like. Like you were saying, kind of fell out of love with piano but then realized you could do shit on a laptop. Was that like when you thought, fuck, I'm actually quite good at this or.

Yeah, I mean more gradual. It was just one of those things where I'd always like passively wanted to. When I was in school, especially though I was like the kid with a really high voice. Yeah, I was the late bloomer. Yeah, I was the late bloomer. Though, like pubi didn't strike too late for me. So I was just like that kid with his squeaky voice and like, can you imagine trying to tell people you're a singer, but then they'll be, oh, sing. And then you're singing like a girl. It's like crazy. But basically college was like when I knew that I wanted to do music like properly because I was surrounded 247 by musicians. Like when you're in school, you're not surrounded by musicians all the time. You're surrounded by people in your mouth, people in your science class. It's all just like a bit like, matey. And even doing music, if you do music or drama or anything in school, you tend to get rinsed by a football team or something. Like.

Yeah, it's very true, very funny.

It's mad. But college, you're surrounded by musicians. Everyone's like like minded. So.

So was that specifically a music college or was that just doing music?

No, it's just doing music at college. But that's all I did at college. Like I did a BTEC level three diploma, which is just like a full time course. So I'm consistently with the same group of people like three throughout. And that for me was like priceless.

And is that just like. I literally have no idea how this works. So excuse the ignorance, but is that just, is that literally like, like what's on the curriculum for that? Because obviously like you said, can you read music not into like the traditional.

Side, not like, not madly.

So I've never learned to do it.

My theory, my theory side is quite weak. Like I know chords, I know like how to play things. But, like, if you gave me a sheet of written music, I'd be a bit stuck. So, yeah, they. They break up the curriculum into, like, loads of different modules. And some of them are really academic and they're about musicians from the 1800s or so. And so. Yeah. Which actually, for me, personally, I don't really agree with having all that sort of thing in the curriculum. I feel. I feel like they should be giving credit for making music what it is or setting on that right, like, trajectory. But at the same time, I feel like people need to just learn about what is to be expected in the music industry, like today. Because even now I'm only learning about, like, contracts, all of that sort of stuff. The nitty gritty stuff that you would have thought you'd learn at college or university. Maybe you do learn at uni, but I didn't go to uni. But you would have thought you'd learn about that sort of stuff at college. But they just don't tell you.

So that's kind of the same with anything.

Yeah, it's like the important thing, like taxes and all that sort of stuff.

It's just, like, common conversations, but not about taxes or anything relevant.

I know, and it's. It's kind of the same in music. But that college course, specifically, every semester or term or whatever you want to call it, you would. You'd have a performance, and it was only in front of, like, the parents and friends of, like, the people who are in your class. But you imagine there's a class of 20 people. Like, pretty big performance when there's like, four people coming for each person. Like, I'm not even gonna do the maths. But there's a lot of people considering when you don't, like, like, even performing in front of, like, your own family at home.

Yeah, true.

Or you get nervous. Like, all of a sudden you're in front of, like, 200 people, and it's just a bit, like, shocking. But when you're doing it consistently, then it don't phase you anymore. And then when you do it on your own, you know, I mean, so it was really good for, like, character building. Definitely.

Yo, fellas. Quick one. First bit of promo for the pod. You may or may not have heard I released a fucking E Commerce a few months ago. Basically spent like six months making it because I was in between businesses, as you probably know, if you follow my shit, I must say, 12 hours long. It's fucking quality content, especially for the price it's at now. I was Gonna drop it at like 1500 quid with some bullshit guru y webinar and all that rubbish. But as you know, it's not my main thing. I'm working on a new brand right now, very, very fucking much in the trenches. Which is why I think it's actually a better course than everything else out there because it's built on real experience of my brands in the past and my current one. So yeah, long story short, I've it to 299 quid, which is criminal to be honest, because it should be way more expensive than that. I think it's super, super valuable. If you're interested in Ecom, you're already in Ecom and you want it to get into Ecom. 0 to 1 starting a brand from scratch, then definitely worth investing in. Link is in the bio of this video or podcast. Spotify, Apple Music, wherever the you're listening or watching and enjoy the rest of the pod. Yeah. And then the EP, when did that come out?

EP came out. January 8, 2018.

So exact.

Yeah, literally I. I was. So my birthday is on the 8th of the 8th, so I just had an 8 thing in my head and I was like, it's 2018, I want to drop it on the 8th of like. It's just weird, man.

But how did you record that? Was that like.

So. Yeah. So basically at college it was. No, it was all just. I don't know if it's luck or if things are meant to be. I kind of think that things are just meant to be in life. But I found the guy through Instagram promotions of all things. Yeah. And his name's Jojo and I've worked with him from that day until like now. Like, I'm in a session with him tomorrow and he basically mix and masters all of my stuff. And on my first sort of few songs he was, he was just helping me with like finding the right sounds for what I wanted to do as well. Yeah. Because obviously I'm creating these things on my laptop, but I'm like a novice at this point. Like, I know how I want things to sound, I know everything. And I'm just putting in these like, he must have heard my first projects and be like, God, like, these sounds are horrible. But he knew exactly where I was going with it. And like, the songs aren't bad, it's just the way they're put across because like, at the end of the day it's like you can create the song which is the face, but then it's the makeup that Sort of makes it what it is, if, you know, I mean, it just enhances it.

Yeah, I've always wanted that to be fair. Like, slight tangent. But, like, obviously if you listen to, like, I don't know, like, I used to record when I was, like, 16. But, like, even if I was really talented, which I'm not, it would sound way better if a professional did it. Like, how much do you think, for example, like, you say you get some mumble rapper that's not that good, but you put him in a studio with the best fucking producer in the world or, like, I don't know, Drake's producer, whatever.

Like, yeah, yeah.

Is how much difference does that make? Or is it a combination?

It's a combination for sure, but it's. It's experience. You gotta bear in mind Drake's producers, not, like, just been around for a day, you know, I mean, so he's been doing it for yonks. So he'll know how to get the best out of an artist and how to prompt an artist as well. Like, a lot of people just going off, like, cues. Especially when you're writing. Writing is like, it's so good to be in the room with someone who, like, knows how to write because they'll be like, oh, where do you want to take this? Oh, is that like. They question everything you do? Not everything, but a lot of the ideas you put on the table, they just question it. Just so you give it a bit more thought. Yeah, I think that the quality of producer definitely is down to experience and how passionate they are as well. Because you could be doing something for like, 10 years or put someone in a room who's been doing it for a year that's, like, really passionate about it. Yeah, they'll pick it up very quickly.

Who's that producer? The Murder. Murder Beats.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, I'm not, like, clear enough on this shit, but he's, like, pretty young, right? But I swear he's on, like. Or at least has been on, like, some fucking massive albums.

There's younger, bro. There's younger people out there that. Doing crazy because, yeah, like, done all, like, Juice Worlds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's, like, younger than both of us by a lot, I think, as well, which is crazy.

Yeah. Fuck. I guess if you start, like 11.

Years old, but it goes back to, like, the accessibility of music right now. Like, all he needed, or all he had ever needed was just a laptop and a software, like Logic or Fruit Loops or something, and then Bomb. That's all you need, literally. You don't even need the MIDI keyboard or anything because everything you can do on your laptop. It obviously helps when you get more of a setup and do things a little bit more differently. But like you can practice and learn everything from the comfort of your own home. And that's why so many people are in music at the moment.

Yeah, it's mad cause I actually used to like again I was never. I just played around with a lot when I was doing it more for enjoyment. But like I tried to get into. I kind of got over the doing covers thing. And then when I was like 18 I spent like 6 months trying to learn like Logic doing like house music production. I did, I made a few like what I think is decent at the time. But yeah, it's kind of mad because you're right, you literally don't need anything. It's a fucking laptop.

Yeah.

Which most people afford if you get a fucking weekend job or something.

Yeah. Gone, not gone are the days of having to be like insane an instrument or anything like that. But like being, knowing your way around. Logic is almost an instrument in itself.

Yeah.

I keep saying Logic because that's the one that I use. But any of the software.

Yeah, that's the app on it and there's like Ableton and shit.

Is it? Yeah, yeah.

And then so going back to did ep like at what point like what happens from there over like the past few years in terms of like obviously we're speaking off camera before. Yeah, particularly in the past year I think you said is when shit's like picked up and you getting way more opportunities and attention and shit. Like what does that look like the past three years from that point.

So this is kind of a bit what I thought, what I found quite interesting. What I think people might find quite interesting because no one really talks about like the real come up of like up and coming artists. People just like, oh, I put an EP out and then so. And so pick me up and then bomb. I was in the industry like there is a lot of time between the EP and so and so picking you up like that space just is never talked about and I'll talk about right now. So I put the EP out. I was expecting. Someone actually said to me and I recall the conversation, they're just like what would you be happy with? Because like people knew I was going to put EP out and I was just like some pre drinks like a few nights before it came out.

Yeah.

Because I don't know the 8th because I've really wanted to be on the 8th, it was on like some weird day. It's like a bougie day. I can't remember, like Sunday or Monday or something like that. So I was at pre drinks and someone said, honestly, what would you be happy with? And I said 10,000 on the whole project. So EP was five songs and I was just like 10,000 plays? Yeah, on the whole project. That's. That would make me happy. And then I put the EP out. It's doing really well for some reason. Like, I had no. I had no idea how well it was gonna do, So I wanted 10,000. I accidentally put it on SoundCloud before anything because I uploaded it really late, so I didn't know if it was gonna be on Spotify when I wanted it to be. And I uploaded it onto SoundCloud first. And like within the first like day or so, I was like clear past 2.5K streams on like the whole thing, and I was just like, oh my God, this is sick. All of a sudden it's out on Spotify when I wanted it to be. So I'm trying to channel people over there. And yeah, that. That EP ended up doing like hundreds of thousands of streams. And that for me was just like. I was just mind blown because I think Spotify picked it up. They didn't fully like playlist or anything. It was just like the local hype was just taking it because, like, I was just a bit of a social butterfly in college and things anyway, so I just had loads of friends and like, another thing that I was gonna say is marketing as well. Like, I just sort of messaged all of my friends. So can you please put this on your story or something? Just get some hype around them. Yeah, literally, I just had like thousands of people just do that one simple thing and like owe them a lot. Because just one person putting it on their story, like, say that just gets another like 300 eyes onto my EP, whether they're interested or not. One person is 300. So if you get like a thousand people posting your story, like, there's a mad amount of impressions.

Very true.

So, yeah, that EP goes out, does like great numbers. It sets me on a bit of a high as well because then I, like put some music out like straight away after. And all my music's just been pretty, like decent and steady. It's always been in like the thousands and whatnot. I've not quite cracked that million one, which is what I'm after, but I'm very confident that that's going to come within the next 12 months. Just from the places that I'm in.

Yeah.

So, yeah, from that point onwards, I've just been in sessions with JoJo, consistently making music week in, week out. Just keeping my head down as well. Like, yeah, I've had a few jobs as well, just in terms of like, just getting some money in. Because obviously sessions and things aren't free or they weren't. So you've got to kind of fund it, but you've got to definitely be fully invested in doing music if you really, really, really, really, really want to make it. Because sometimes if you're like too focused on your plan B, it'll like completely set you off track from your plan A. I've never, ever, ever had a.

Plan B. Yeah, I love that because.

I feel like if you, if you have a plan B, then you. There's no way you can be 100 in your plan A. Because, yeah, you kind of got one eye on your plan B, the other on your planet. And if you doubt yourself, it's just. It's only out of doubt that you'd even create a plan B.

That's very true. Yeah.

And I just thought I did not want to spend like the 50 years of my life working in something I didn't completely love. And like, the one thing I completely love is music. So I was just like, there's no way, I can't do it. So I was just plugging away, plugging away, plugging away for years and years and getting good attention as well. There was a few things come about. First person like, who, like, kind of had me a little bit starstruck, probably won't mean much to a few people if you didn't listen to his music when you were growing up. But a guy called D.J. ironic, he reached out to me and I went and recorded a few songs with him. But a lot of the time things just don't come with anything like that. Still, Bangles reached out to me. Nothing really came of that either. It was just one of them ones. It's just kind of like it's up and downs in music, but you just gotta remain consistent that you're on the right path and attention is good and you gotta be like grateful for people reaching out rather than just be like, oh, that fell for all that fell through. Like, just gotta be like, oh, some people don't even get that opportunity in the first place.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, it was just TikTok. I uploaded a TikTok and that was seen by my management, basically Amri the Artist. Oh, yeah, yeah. She uploaded a challenge on TikTok and I saw.

I think I've seen this. Yeah, the. The split screen thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a duet. So she uploaded a challenge and it was to write a song about, like, your mother. And I saw it at like 11pm at night and I just wrapped up for the day and I put a TikTok up that day as well. So I was just checking, like, to see how I'd done. I was just down by for you. It was like 11pm, I see this challenge and I was like, only 20 people have entered when I saw the challenge and I was like, that's not many people at all. Because I. I knew if I go to sleep and I wake up tomorrow morning to do that challenge, it's going to be a thousand people minimum, like, who have, like duetted the video or something. So I was like. I spent like, literally 10 minutes writing this thing because it was only a minute video and it was just writing stuff about your mum. So, like, if you're already a songwriter, like, you just write things. Easy to write about mums, because they're just great. I just wrote a song by. My mom, went to bed that day after uploading it the next day I woke up, she's following me. And Mother's Day is just around the corner as well. So I was just like, oh, mad. She might do something with this video. And then, long story short, she does. She uploads mine and some other people's videos, like, I guess in the Winners or her favorites on her actual Instagram feed. And from there, my current management that I'm working with, they just pick me up, they dropped me a dm and ever since then I've just been working with them.

Just picking up on that then. So your management or Anne Marie's management or.

No, so my management, they're a separate entity altogether, but they manage a songwriter called Plestard and he writes a lot for Anne Marie and plenty of other artists in the UK scene. Yeah, they obviously manage other people as well, but, like, that would be the reference point. Yeah, that's why they were snooping around, like, sort of her posts. Obviously she posts a songwriting challenge and these guys are hot on that sort of thing and they just thought, oh, might as well hit this guy up and see what he's about. And then I've been ready for that call for so long. Like, I've literally had portfolios, like, ready to just send off. And I went for a, well, bougie phase. Like, I don't even know. About a year ago, me and my guitarist Callum actually, we just, like, sending emails out to, like, loads of different managers who are managing, like, eyes and things that I've been like, take a chance on me or, like, you know, I mean, just begging it, basically, which is never the way bearing in mind, but I just thought, like, you don't ask, you don't receive, so.

Very true.

I just thought, let's just try and get some management. I don't really know what management was gonna do, but I just knew that I needed someone to just help get me into rooms, like, to show people that I'm capable of going up that level quickly as well. So, yeah, long story short, a lot of them, sometimes I got emails back from those managers and they were asking for work and then even one, like, wanted a call and things like that. But, like, they just. They just. Yeah, it's blessings in disguise when that sort of thing doesn't happen because it's not meant to happen.

Yeah. And how much. So, for example, like, the EP and I guess in general, like, how much do you think, for any, like, artist getting started, it's like talent versus getting the. The right eyeballs on. So, like, do you think anyone that's good enough is. Is ultimately gonna. Including yourself, is ultimately gonna get picked by the right people and get. Get in front of the right audience? Or do you think it's like, it has to be a combination of talent, not look, but, like, talent and other factors combine into, like, you know, like, you meet the right person, that gets you in front of the right label or whatever?

Yeah, well, there's plenty of examples of people who have got into that space because of their looks. And there's plenty of examples of people who've got into spaces because of their talent. But even if you take the talent side, no one's just finding you in your bedroom. My mom always used to say to me, like, this song is amazing, but no one's gonna hear it in your bedroom.

Yeah.

And I used to be like, oh, come on, like, give me a break and whatnot. But she's so right because, like, no one is going to listen to that song unless you put it out in the world and you're only giving. It's like a lottery ticket. And I always think the same about, like, just TikTok in general as well. Like, TikTok's like a lottery. The more times you enter, the more likely you are to win. And when you win, you win big. And it's the Same with all social media. It's the same with like gigs just going out and meeting people. Gigs are crazy as well by the way. So now that I'm with this management I've been going to like gigs and the people who I'm with are obviously songwriters and people who are well established in the industry and they are. Every gig I go to there is always like 20 people. Majority of the time they're just at the back of the room as well and they're all just industry folk and it's just crazy like I would be going to these gigs anyway not knowing that like the same people I'm trying to hit up for email just like please sign me or whatever at these same gigs as me but you just don't know because they just blend into like the crowd. But like when you learn how to identify these types of people it's actually quite obvious like who they are because they all kind of know each other as well and they're all like normally grown ups.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's crazy world once you get on the inside.

Yeah mad. So you get contacted by these agents.

Yeah, the management.

Yeah, yeah, management. What happens next and what's happened between then and now in terms of obviously getting your foot in the door. Like you said before.

Yeah like anything it's always like kind of a slow initial start basically they with anything like if you take a chance on someone, you're always a bit apprehensive at the start as well. You just want to make sure that person is who you think they are and how good you think they are as well. Like so they were just basically getting me to send them music on a regular basis. And because I almost songwriting quite frequently as well, I found that quite easy just posting as well because I don't think any management really wants like a full on mission, you know, I mean no one wants to have to take someone from having no idea and just a bit of potential to be in like the biggest artist in the world. They kind of want someone who like knows where they want to be and they can just like guide them there. Yeah. So that was, that's always been my focus, making sure I'm not too reliant on anyone. Like I've built my team that I trust. That and that are amazing. So like if I was dropped or anything tomorrow I'd still have the foundations of what I've built anyway. Like I can remember them saying I was shooting a video not too long ago and they're saying oh, do you want us to Facilitate, like videographer or something. And I'm like, no, I've got everything under control. Like, my team understand the direction I want to go in. And, yeah, that was basically it. So I just kept making music and waiting on sessions that eventually came with a good friend of mine now, guy called Alan Sampson. He was my first session and he done, like, Jay Sean bits and things in the day, if you remember. Yeah, Jay Sean. But he's obviously been working with, like, loads of, like, current artists.

And how does the session work then? So is that set up by the management?

Yeah, so the manager would basically put a producer in a room with a writer or an artist. So I'm kind of doing both at the moment, both artist and writer. And they just put you both in a room and you make music. Like, it's literally as simple as that. Yeah, I always find the first sessions kind of like they could go one of two ways. They can either be icebreaker sessions where it's a bit like getting to know the person. Because sometimes songwriting can be a bit, like, vulnerable, and you gotta, like, let your guard down completely. And it's kind of a bit jarring to do that with, like, a stranger who is. Everyone's a stranger who you meet for the first time.

Yeah.

But sometimes you can just get it off and, like, your energy just, like, clicks straight off the bat and you.

Just get a banger.

Yeah, I've had. Yeah, genuinely, I've just had a few sessions even recently, where we've just jumped into the room, three of us, first time ever, meeting each other, and like, within 10 minutes we're already, like, in it.

Is it like on those. Those videos and shit you see of, like, rappers where it's like 2am, like futures, wearing, like, a hood and sunglasses, fucking smoking the shit out of weed. Or is that. Is that just, like, a certain look? They're not like that.

It depends what session you're in. I mean, I've been in sessions that finish it. Like, I've been in there from like 11 in the morning until 6pm, which is kind of standard. And then I was in a session last week where I got there at like 6pm I didn't leave till 4am and that was a bit like that.

Are they not more creative sessions, though? Like.

Well, it depends, like, because I feel.

Like I'm definitely more creative at nighttime.

But yeah, yeah, it's one of them ones. Well, I have a home studio currently as well, and there's no way that my mom is okay with me making music until 4:00am, you know, I mean, so it's kind of like when I'm at home especially, I just kind of stick to a, a regime of getting up, doing music, have a working day of doing music. Not like, so it's not fun, but just get up and actually be a bit more like disciplined with your life and have a bit of strategy. Because I find the most poisonous thing for me is to be like going to bed late, waking up late, like for my mental state, it just doesn't, doesn't serve me well. So I like to be in like some sort of structure. But these sessions are so like, they fluctuate, man. So I could be having morning sessions to like evening or afternoon sessions to early morning or just evening sessions to early morning. And it's just. And they can be anywhere as well. London's like a huge place and you find that out especially if you do music.

Yeah. Like, how often would these be? And I guess like two part question, how often would these be? And then also, what does like a Monday to Friday, so to speak, look like for you and other people in a similar stage?

So when it first started off, I was literally doing like a session a week, if I was lucky, just because it wasn't that frequent. But then all of a sudden it turned from one session a week to like two sessions. And basically it's opportunity. So you just gotta be ready. Like nothing is luck in this world. Like it's when your opportunity meets preparation.

Yeah.

I get the call like, oh, there's a session tomorrow with one of the producers you've been in with, with an artist that's just been signed to a record label who needs a writer. And then boom, I attend that session, smash it. And then from there, you know, I mean, then you're in their books and it's kind of like one of them ones like that now you're networking because their team knows about you. And then if you do a session again with someone else in their label to bring in someone else from another label, then like, you know, work gets about really quickly. If you can just like smash sessions and if you get on with the artists. Yeah, or producers for that matter. Producers tend to be in sessions just every day, like just six days a week, five days a week. And it's kind of just like work in general. Writers and producers. I just feel like anyone. It's just kind of as much as you want to do. I feel like if you want to be like one of the best, like you're going to be in there all the Time. Yeah, because like you said, it's like a lottery, especially songwriting as well. Like you can be. I can make just like a song a week or something. Like, but what good is that gonna do for me? I've got to do like a song a day or a song every two days. Like you want to make him good though? I don't always, I don't always feel like just. I just blast out like a song a day or three songs a day. Some people can like fair play.

Yeah, that's a lot.

Some people be like, oh yeah, I've done like 20 songs today. I was on that. I'm just like. It all depends on how good those songs are though. Because I'd like to just spend two days on a song and it'd be a complete hit rather than three songs in one day. And they're kind of like half ideas or new albums. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't believe in album fillers, but it's just one of them ones where the more you like, I think it's just grow up to be honest and like listen to music as like as you get older, you just care less about like the singles in an album and care more about the songs that are more like that artist, if you know. I mean.

Yeah. And how does it all work? Like. And again, I just, I know fucking nothing about music industry. So like how like where do you make money from primarily? Okay, when? Because obviously there's levels to it, of course.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm currently, I'm learning more and more about this, like with each conversation I have, especially in my management because now I'm more in the thick of it. But from my understanding, a lot of producers, songwriters are in deals, publishing deals, which is like you get an advance of. I don't know, let's speak hypothetically, like a hundred thousand pound for six month deals. Don't know. Might consist of a certain amount of work as well. And any song you put out within that time frame, they get the publishing royalties to like the publishing company. So like they make back their money. So in the music industry, I don't think that anything's like just given to you anyway. Like it's more or less just people try and assess your value, pay you that amount of money and then over that period of time hope that they can actually make more money back than they give you. But musicians get paid so that. I don't want to speak too much about that sort of thing just because some of what I'm saying might be like half right. And half wrong. So it's just like, I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong road. But from my understanding, that's kind of how it goes. And then when it comes to, like, being signed by, like, record labels and things like that, then that comes to just like your stream money and all of that sort of thing going to the labels rather than to you. But you're obviously, you've got your deal, your record deal.

She said you're on the edge of a deal right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just being in sessions, man, just being in sessions, impressing the right people. And like, they, they just come sniffing. Like, I was in a session the other day with a writer who has a publicist from, like, Holland, I think, and they follow you on Instagram, they DM you and things like that. And it's just like, just from that, you know, I mean, there's another person that is interested in you and they all want to just kind of get these writers in, get them under their roster. Because I feel like it's just a gamble. And I know that whoever sort of takes the gamble on me is going to be. It's not even a gamble, you know, I mean, like, yeah, I'll pay them back in full.

Yeah.

For their belief.

I feel like music is one of those things, like, stereotypically or from the outside looking in, where it's like people that aren't in the industry employ, myself included to an extent. Like, unlike other jobs or like, just say, like, just like a business or running a business or having like a job in, like a corporate world. It's like people kind of assume if you're not like Justin Bieber, then you're like, homeless.

Yeah.

Have you experienced that stereotype?

Yeah, yeah. Because people are also intrigued. There's a lot of like, just because.

Yeah. As in, like, people think if you're not like a list celebrity, then you can't be.

It's a madness. Like, people, oh, how much do you earn? Like, random. They're like almost the first questions, like, you get asked. Like, if someone meets you and they know you do music and like. Or they see like. Yeah, that's what I mean.

They'll be like, oh, it feels quite a lot of people. Because it's not like.

Because I would walk in here, just be like, oh, how much are you made?

Yeah, exactly.

You know, I mean, it's just like, it's. It's quite jarring.

But if people don't understand something, it's like, my parents, like, Family members would used to do that to me when I first started a business.

Yeah.

Whereas they wouldn't do that if I just had like a normal job.

Yeah.

If I did that to them, it would be rude.

But it's just. It's just curiosity, I think, like. Yeah, it's just no one knows how to ask the question because they're kind of thinking themselves. And I've had a lot of people in when I first started out, like, the doubt didn't really come from them not believing in me. It was. They just didn't know enough about what I was trying to do or they don't know about enough about the industry or they just doubt themselves. Like they were putting their own fears onto me, like, oh, I could never make in the industry. So, you know, you would never make it in the industry. So it's just one of them ones. There is no like blueprint in music.

Yeah.

Like, there's no path to how you get from A to B otherwise everyone take it. There's so many people in music as well. Like, it'd just be ridiculous. If there was the easy route, then everyone would take it. So. Yeah, I don't think that there is a enough knowledge about music in general, but like, you don't need to know unless you're really in it.

Yeah, very true, very true. Because to be fair, like, I've often gone to like a festival or whatever, maybe just because I'm like into like entrepreneurship and business and shit. And I just like always Google this sort of shit in like every case. But I went to a 1975 show like two years ago, probably my favorite band, and I just like Google bar drunk. Like 1975 earnings per show and shit. Like, because I try and do the maths in like an arena. I'm like, oh, I'm in the fucking O2. 20,000 seats, give or take. I've paid 60 quid for a ticket. I'm like doing the math. What's that? Like over a million quid for the show revenue. And then. And then it. Yeah, it just interests me. Like, how much does an artist keep from that? Like, hypothetically? I'm probably asking.

Just, I mean, from my show specifically. I've got a good relationship with a company called LMS down their promoters down by where I live and in my city they seem to give me a good deal, which is about like 3, 30% or something from a show which, yeah, you would think is just like outrageous. But like, I guess that was probably like near enough the norm because venues Take a lot, because obviously without their venue, there's no show and they have to staff them places. So it's a bit ridiculous, like an artist coming in taking, like 8%, because, like, the venues would be left with, like, no profit. They're having to host the night, clean up after all of that sort of thing. Promoters also want their cut because they're getting bums on seats. Artists just show up, perform, and then leave. Like, we kind of have the easiest part, even though we're the most crucial part. But yeah, it's one of them ones. And touching on what you said earlier about not that much knowledge about the music industry, it's very closed. Like, the best way I describe it, it's like a donut and there's an outer circle and there's an inner circle. Yeah, like, it's like that. There's an outer circle and there's an inner circle. And the only way you get into that inner circle is, like, via invitation into it. Like, you can't just randomly just walk into a room with the right people. So, like my management or my invitation into the inner circle. Once you're in that inner circle, you realize just how small the industry really actually is. Like, everyone seems to know everyone or know someone who knows that guy, you know, I mean, if I was talking about a writer, my manager would be able to say, oh, we know so and so. Who knows them? Yeah, so it's like, it's really closed. Like, even. Even going abroad to, like, the States. Like, everything is just like, it's accessible when you're in the inner circle. But being on the outer circle, man, like, like I said, you could be. You could be in a room with like. Like, I was the other day, one of the guys who ran Psycho, which is Simon Cowell's label. I was just in a room with him. I'm not a Scooby Doo. Who. Who was who in that room? And it's only until, like, someone comes up and introduces this guy to me and you shake his hand and you have a conversation with. And me like, holy shit, I could have been in this room with you. Just as a fan, still being an artist, but, like, just being there on the night as a fan, and then, boom, there you are. And it's crazy because then I went to a show as a fan because I. That one, I was just on guest list because I was with my management, so we were like, after partying afterwards and whatnot. But I go to a show later on in the week for my team, as in like my band and my content career because we just like going to shows and stuff. And I see some faces from like the night before, but I'm only seeing these faces and recognizing these people because I've seen them before. Like, but they're everywhere, you know, I mean, there. If there's an artist performing in London, small world. Yeah, it's. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. But it's that inner circle of that donut that you just don't get let in unless you're invited in.

Yes. Yeah. Relatively similar with a lot of things, but yeah, I can imagine music even more so because. And do you think you need to. I mean, I've kind of said this, but, like, do you think you definitely need to know the right people to make it work? I was like, has social media, obviously you said it make. It makes it easier for, like, people to put stuff out. And it's probably the same with a lot of things that YouTubers, whatever, content creators. But at the same time, do you think it means, like, there's more competition and like, more noise? Or do you think it's like, overall is a good thing if you're willing to put in the. Put in the graft?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think content creating is just like. But you content create to get to the right people, if you know what I mean. At the end of the day, someone comes, drops you a DM and picks you up and makes your life easier. Like, puts you in the right rooms, gets you the right deals. They just make your life easy or. And get you the right money, get you the right things. I mean, I know plenty of content creators who, without the management they have, wouldn't be getting this. The deals they get.

Yeah.

And it's not down to. Because they're not talented enough or anything like that. It's just these managers, their job is to bring in the deals, make their own bread. Like, and that's what you want as well. You want someone, you want a manager who has your best interests at heart as well and wants you to be, like, at the top of your game so that they can, like, put their name to it, rather than someone who just wants to SAP the life and blood and money out of you. Just like every opportunity they get like someone who really fully understands your artistry and your trajectory and like, where you wanted to take your art or craft or content. That's. That's the sort of person you want, like, in your corner. Unfortunately, I feel like I found that I haven't actually signed pen to paper yet with my management, but I'm sure that probably even by the time this goes out, be close to or done.

Yeah. So sounds good. Yeah. And I remember speaking to Connor Maynard actually, who lives around here. Yeah, he came to a few parties.

Yeah. Yeah.

It was like a classic drunk conversation. I probably just asked him questions that I shouldn't ask him because I was like, oh, there's a fucking celebrity in my flat. And he was telling me this story. I mean, long story short, he was. I think he said he pretty much. He got kind of screwed over into signing this. What he didn't realize at the time was a really fucking stupid deal when he was like 18 or something. I don't know the exact specifics, but. And he only recently got out of it, like eight years later, whatever it was. And is there a lot of that in the music, do you think?

Yeah.

Hear these stories in like fucking tabloids and shit. But is it true?

I've got people, like, genuinely concerned for my, like, future because of, like, they know that I'm going to be in, like, great success or great rooms. People, like, putting these mad offers on the table and whatnot. And they're just like, please just run it by me or run it by my team or we'll get you a lawyer or something. Like, people who just don't even have to do that sort of thing. But, like, it's quite that for me. Just like, I throw my guard up a little bit because I'm like, oh, my days. Like, is that really what it's like? I think it's more or less like, you can. You can get good deals in music. Yeah, like you can in anything. No one's gonna obviously give you a deal that's just like, doesn't favor them. Like, why would a label, like, pay you a million pound if they're gonna get like 800k back or something like that? Like, obviously they're gonna do it so that they make money off of you as an artist. It's kind of just the way that the world works in general. Yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't invest in something that you're gonna lose money in. Like, it just doesn't make. It doesn't make sense.

Yeah, very true.

So, yeah, I think there are deals and things that you just gotta be aware of, but it can be blinding. I mean, I don't know Connor's scenario, but assume maybe there was just a lot of money put on the table for when you're 18 and it's just like stupid to turn down. Maybe you don't look at like the longevity and I think once you're in deals you lose a bit of control as to what happens. So say it's like a three album deal or something. Maybe the label doesn't let you put out your album or doesn't let you put out your second album because of something that they have a peeve with.

Yeah.

But then you're still in a three album deal and they're the ones not letting you put it out. Yeah. So I can imagine that there are things that maybe I'll even come across. I mean, touch wood, I don't. But yeah, it is one of the ones. And that's why I say you just got to have people who are fighting your corner and have your best interests in mind. Because obviously imagine you sign to a management and all they care about is making like money fast. That sign like the most trash deal that pays half decent for right now but like screws you in the long term. But you want just, you just want to find the medium in life. Something that makes you happy, serves you well and keeps you going on like the upwards so that when it's over, like there's something else as well rather than it's just like you fall off or you lose your content.

Yeah. And then like labels and obviously most people have heard of like Capital Records, Universal, Yeah, Psycho, this. Is there like, like, is there labels that you want to work with? Like, is there a real big difference between like these like small boutique labels, which I know nothing about by the way. I'm just kind of making some of these bigger labels or.

Yeah, I feel like they're all owned slightly under the umbrella or. Yeah, like of these bigger labels anyway, the smaller boutique ones, I haven't really done too much looking into labels, to be honest with you. I kind of feel like that's just a bridge that you cross when you come, when you come to it. But what I do know is that it appears like they call a lot of the shots in, in the industry in general. I was giving a bit of thought the other day and it was just questions more or anything. Probably anyone will find this helpful, but I was just thinking about artists like Russ who are like, yeah, clearly, clearly independent though. And like make a point of it. They make a point of being independent. But like how much support, like how many award shows do you see? Rust, performer and things like that. And then it kind of makes you think, is it because the industry is more run by these labels? And they kind of get to decide who's in, who's on stage, who's doing this, who's doing that. Or is it just by chance that he's not there? Maybe he doesn't believe in them. Sort of like accolades and things like that. But yeah, it was just a question I was asking myself because I was thinking independent life obviously is all well and good, but like, also I'm sure there are plenty of perks to both sides. I think creative control wise. If you just want to own all of your masters and if you can get a lot of attention to your music without having to sign like a deal to anything, then yeah, 100% you'd be stupid to sign to a label. But what these guys tend to be able to do is get you a lot of attention pretty fast.

Yeah.

And I guess it depends. It's like a gamble in life, in anything. You could probably just start up a company by yourself. It might take you 10 years to get to where you want to be.

Yeah.

Or in two years with an investor you could be.

That's kind of what I'm going through now because I spoke about it with Adam on a previous pod and like I've always bootstrapped here and I think, think you have to earn your stripes doing it that way. And you learn a lot doing that. And it's like the same with you in music. But then, yeah, he gets a point where it's like, well, could I do a lot more with help? And not just financially, but like just access to people. Yeah. And knowledge that you don't have. Just trying to do it yourself.

Yeah. So it's kind of. You just ask the same question to yourself.

Yeah.

You just like. And that's the beautiful thing about like this conversation right now is because I feel like there are so many, so many similarities between an entrepreneur and a self made musician. Because every musician is self made. Like you don't just like you don't walk into an office and just make it, you know, I mean, everything has to be like done from the ground up. Same way it would be if you were starting a business the same way. These labels are like investors. Like, everything's like, they're like banks, basically.

I guess you are the brand. That's, that's, that's the difference.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's what's cool about this conversation because I feel like when you're asking questions passively, you're thinking, oh, like this is kind of the same situation. Yeah.

Definitely is. And I guess, like, a more controversial one. Like, I mean, if, like, a label came to you and said, like, you can make, like, I don't know, 10 times as much money, but we're gonna make you do music that isn't you, and we're gonna force you to, you know, I don't know, become a. I don't know, like, super pop singer, which. Well, I don't know if you class yourself pop at all. Not really. Yeah, just like the opposite of what you want to do. But it was like. I guess what I'm saying is, like, where's the line between staying true? Yeah, because a lot of people get that accusation, especially artists that, like. We say we're, like, smaller, and then suddenly they blow up. People like, oh, I sold out, whatever. But isn't that just kind of fucking smart? I don't know. Is that smart? And then you've got the freedom financially to maybe go back to doing. I'm trying to think of an example. Is there a good example of that? I suppose.

I think people thought Drake sold out a little bit when he did Tissy Slide.

Yeah, that sort of shit.

Like Tiktoky Song or whatever. At the same time, though, you got to think, like, you gotta look at someone's underlying morals, like, am I in it to make money? Like, trust me, if I was in music to make money, I'd be very dumb person. Because currently, from the moment I started to the place I am now, I'm pretty sure I'm probably at a loss. Just because, like, you put so much into it right at the start where, like, no one's, like. And you barely seeing a penny back.

Yeah, so true.

So it's just one of them projects. It very much is. And that's why I feel like you just got to keep plugging. Like, if you're concerned about money, you'll never enjoy music, I don't think, because sessions cost money. Sessions cost money. Do and don't. It depends whether or not you put in sessions or if you're paying for them yourself. But at the start, they definitely cost money and making money as well. Like, you gotta be doing pretty frequent shows, putting music out frequently and getting good traction to, like, make. Make money that way. I feel like in the long run, if a label came to me, it was just like, we're gonna pay you a lot of money to do something you don't want to do. You pretty much answer your own question. You don't want to do it, so don't do it. Because you know, I mean you could, you can kind of life is what, whatever you want to make of it. So like, if you want to just make money, then fair enough. Go make money. If you want to have a great career and do things you love doing. Like if I stop love, if I stop loving music as a result of signing a deal, then I'm then in the scenario I didn't ever want to be in. I'm then now working. You know what I mean?

Yeah, true.

And right now it doesn't feel like I'm working. It feels like I'm living my dream job. Yeah, that is the same as you as well. Like could do you. Would you. If there was a product that could make you a load of money, but it was just something you were just so unpassionate about.

Yeah, I mean, two sides this. Like I've spoke about this as especially recently. Like I've been like, oh, I definitely. Yeah, I need to. Like I said to you before, like started that fucking new brand and then I was going down an angle I didn't like. And that wasn't even about money because it was making no money. It was fucking three days old. But then I was like, nah, I don't want to do that. But the irony about this is with the whole Neon beach thing, when all that shit hit the fan, everyone was calling me a fucking. Like this scam artist just wants to make money. And when I was losing fucking million quid or whatever happened.

Yeah.

And the thing that's funny about that was I started that because I was fucking. I just like the aesthetic of pink lights and I didn't even think it would sell. And then it went mad. But like, I think it went mad because it was clear that I was passionate about it and like, yeah, that the market was good and shit. And then it went kind of too good, too, too quick. And then the rest is history.

But I think imagine you started that company because you wanted to make money. I don't think that it does as well as it does. Yeah.

And also like the irony with that was I always thought like, you know, if, if I just wanted to make money. Like I used to say this, my parents who are like, oh, you're chasing money. And I was like, why would I sell pink lights on the Internet and take cringe videos myself? I just want to make money. If I wanted to make money, I'd go and trade Forex.

I would go get a 9 to 5 job. Like, yeah.

Or like, I mean, yeah, yeah, definitely that. But like, if I Just cared about money. I wouldn't try and do something creative. No.

100% not.

And that's the thing, like people that. And ironically, I think if you stick with something you actually love, then you're probably make more sustainable money anyway, long term.

Yeah.

Particularly when it's like entrepreneurial or like doing music or whatever outside the usual 9 to 5 career spec.

But I think you've got to value your time more than you value money, especially in life.

Yeah.

Just because I saw something like even the other day, I can't remember who was saying or what it was, but it was just like, if someone gave you a million pounds in your hand right now, how happy would you be? A lot of people like, yeah, I'd be very happy. But they're like, right, you get this million pounds, but you don't wake up tomorrow, how happy are you now? And do you take the million pounds and you're just like, well, no, because you value your time and your life way more than you value the money that's in your hands. So when you put it into perspective, it's always hard to put them sort of things in perspective because no one knows what it's like to be dead.

But yeah, another way of looking at it I saw online or whatever was people like, yeah, you know, if you had fucking millions tomorrow and you didn't have to do the job that you don't like, what would you do? And then ultimately people would still do something. You can't just fucking. People are just gonna sit on the beach. But you wouldn't. So what would you do? And then, you know, say, I don't know if someone might say, I would try and make YouTube videos instead of work in my currency firm or whatever it is. And then it's like, well, you can do that on the side anyway and like make that replace your income, like pretty realistically if you stick with it for a year or something. But you're not, man. I necessarily make millions. But the point is that the only thing that money would give you that you don't have now anyway is the ability to do something you like. So kind of the freedom. I've kind of realized that because, yeah, I probably to an extent was like, I really want to make a load of money. But I mean, it came from like a creative place. But yeah, now I'm probably a bit more mature having like experience making a lot of money and then lost a lot of money as well. But then it's like, well, fuck, like, I probably wasn't even that I probably wasn't even that happy when I was making loads last year, which. Which I'll do again. But yeah, because I was stressing myself out so much because I was working so much. Yeah. So it's like 15 hours a day running two fucking businesses at the same time.

I feel exactly the same way.

My cholesterol levels or whatever were probably just super high.

I had a. I had a bit of an eye opening experience myself. Well, I was looking, looking for a new car. I just really wanted a new car because I just thought, well, that's like, that's what I'm missing in life. Like a new car just to show up, like pick girls or whatever it might be with this new car. And it'd just be amazing. Long story short, I end up just by chance, drive around this like, Mercedes for I don't know how long, like, few months or whatnot. And like, genuinely one of the lowest points in my life was like the first week I had that Mercedes. And I never really deeped why that was, but it's because it changed absolutely nothing like that unfulfillment that I was feeling. I was never filled by this car. And like when you realize that what you thought you needed wasn't it at all. Because the materialistic, like things in life, they tend to just like, try. They never. They just like pave over the cracks rather than actually filling them in.

Yeah.

And they're always there. So it's just like, I don't know how. What does money really get you if money can buy freedom? Freedom is what everyone wants, I think.

Yeah.

At the bottom of their hearts. Freedom to just live life without owing anyone anything or owing people your time. And I always come back to time because I feel like time is like the most valuable currency in life. Just because you can't buy it, you only lose it. Everyone loses it at the same rate.

It's scary when you think about it. Like aging and shit.

Yeah, everyone loses. Yeah, it's crazy. Maybe that's not what his podcast would be for another three hours, but.

No, it's good. Like my birthday, like a week, week and a half again. It's like every time you have a birthday and don't know, it kind of scares me. Like, obviously you can't slow down time, but there's like a. I think there's some like Japanese term to describe it, but I've forgotten what it is. But it's like there's like some beautiful sadness in the passing of time or some shit. There's something like that something very romantic and like just nostalgic. And it's like, it's kind of deep though.

Yeah. That's why you just got to enjoy life, be in the moment. That's why I don't look too far ahead and I definitely don't look behind. Because if you look too far ahead, it's the unknown. Like you don't know what's going to happen in a few years. You just gotta trust that life's putting you in the path and everything that doesn't happen was life trying to save you from like something further on down the line. So like I never get beat down about things falling through or certain things not happening now because without that inconvenience or without that setback or minor setback, you wouldn't have that huge win like two months down the line. So like that's what drives me, knowing that that win is coming in a month's time and without this minor setback happening, sending me on this trajectory in life, I would not get that win that's in, in a month's time. You know, I mean, and it's kind of hard to understand because sometimes like really, really shit things can happen. You can be like, oh, everything happens for a reason. And you just like, no, that like.

Well, that's what I mean. Because like, yeah, I've I'm still, I still fucking get pissed off about what happened with that brand. My brand. And yes, yeah, like, still bugs me like probably way more than I speak about.

I always think like, imagine though, in like three years time or even. Not even three years time, but a year or two years down the line. This next venture, wherever it might be that you jump on is doing crazy well, better than Neon beach ever was. Making you happy as well. You've changed. Because Neon beach you got to think about was also a learning experience. No matter like even without it failing towards the end or failing in quotations. Like even with, even without that there are things you've learned within running a business that now you take into your next. That gives you less stress this time around as well.

Yeah, it's like kind of stereotypical, whatever. But yeah, like I definitely, I'm like a better person than I was a year ago because that's what like pain and bad experiences teach you. You learn a lot. But do you think. And I'm definitely like, I'm probably like a sarcastically negative optimist. I feel like just being like northern and shit. Like I'm very good at self deprecating but intentional, like ironic way and shit. But ultimately I believe myself and I'm optimistic. Even if, like 70% of the time I fucking moan and get down about shit, but do. On the flip side of that, do you think, like, the whole everything happens for a reason, and I think it's a useful belief, but do you think sometimes, is there a line where, like, people are just using that as an excuse to not achieve things? That's kind of a rhetorical devil's advocate question for myself as well, because I think it's interesting because I, I completely agree, but I think, I agree that things happen for a reason and, like, ultimately you learn shit and everything, but I think you only have kind of the right to look at things that way if you know that you're doing everything you can. Well, there you go to progress your journey. Like, don't sit and watch Netflix five hours a day at age 40, sat in your mum's face and say, oh, this is happening for a reason. I'm going to be feeling out at 60. Do you know what I mean?

Well, I'm sort of saying from the.

Opportunity of, like, you.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm in complete agreement. I don't just think, oh, I don't just sit on my Todd and like, oh, I did. Because you don't ever get the opportunities full stop if you're sat on your todd. Anyway. So, like, if you're in a room and you pitch a song to someone, say, for example, it doesn't go through, they don't jump on it or whatever, like. But you've given it everything you can, you put everything into the song and then it doesn't work. What can you do about it? Because if you dwell on it, you only feel bad for a prolonged period of time. If you let that moment pass and then focus on, like, the next opportunity or focus on making. Even if it's tweaks, even if you don't think you've done anything wrong, like, you can always look at scenarios and, like, change them to favor you in the future. Like. Yeah, so, yeah, I completely agree with you, man. Like, you can never look at life and say, oh, everything happens for a reason. But I didn't try hard enough. Like, that was the reason it didn't happen, because you didn't try hard enough.

Yeah.

And you know that everyone, everyone can see that. Even if you don't see it at first, like, when you reflect on it, take a few days out. Like, accountability is just. It's a beautiful thing if you can, like, master it. Knowing when you're accountable for a scenario or knowing what you could have done differently. Like, because at the end of the day, you can only control your life. You're the. You're the main character in your life. You're not the main character in anyone else's. No one else wakes up, like, and looks through your eyes, you know, I.

Mean, so, yeah, that's kind of another rabbit hole as well. I often think about, like, yeah, like, if you just like people watching, I don't know, anywhere, like an airport, train station, wherever, there's like 7 billion people that, that rightly think they're the main character in their existence. Yeah. Everyone by default thinks they're the main character.

Yeah.

But actually we're all, like, so fucking insignificant to each other on a grand scale. Like. Yeah, it's kind of mad.

Yeah.

The whole, like, consciousness.

And that's why you just don't. You can't think about it too much because at the end of the day, you just end up stop giving fuck about everyone and, like, only fending for yourself and things like that. But at the end of the day, you've got to enjoy life. Like, you're here, you're here now. You have to enjoy it. So you have to trust, believe in people, love people. Like, have your friends, have your family, enjoy your opportunities. Don't, like, run yourself into the ground. Don't, like, beat yourself up. Because, like, another thing is you're with your mind all the time as well. So if you're not thinking optimistically, if you beat yourself up about them things that don't go through, if you don't have that everything happens for a reason, then it's, I'm not good enough complex.

Yeah.

And I know which one I'd rather live with. Like, I would definitely choose to believe that something is greater on the other side than I'm gonna be held at this spot in my life for the rest of my life and hold myself, like, accountable for anything that goes wrong. Like, you gotta learn from your mistakes and even if they're not mistakes, just learn from the scenarios life puts you in. Be persistent in your potential. That's like, that's why I think. And that's, that's. That kind of in a nutshell has been my journey. Just be persistent in your potential. Like, I knew that and I still know that my potential, no one's even scratched the surface of what I'm capable of in music. And I feel like this podcast is beautiful because it's going to be one of them ones that people go Back to. Yeah, to. To listen to. And like, I don't know, a year or two's time. And they'd be like, oh, this is that podcast before I even made it. Like, how crazy. And like, like people cut clips on like, yeah. Instagram, you know what I mean? Like, yeah.

And it goes like viral in like three years.

It's like half and half thing. And then all of a sudden it's me on a stage, like for the Glastonbury or something.

Yeah, legit.

And that's genuinely what I believe, though. That's. That's where I believe my trajectory is going. Because I know what I'm writing, I know what I can write and I know where I'm taking, like, the artistry side of things. I've got. Not, like from like three years ago to now, I've had like no label support or anything like that, but you couldn't tell the difference between my work and someone who has all that back in. And that's what I'm always trying to aspire to do. Make sure that there's no difference, regardless if I'm independent or with a label. I'd only ever sign deals if they were to enhance what I'm doing currently.

Yeah. Kind of run the question, are you religious?

I am to an extent. Yeah. Yeah.

And well, the reason I asked that is because I wouldn't say I'm religious, but I'm definitely, like, spiritual and like, I don't know, whatever you want to call that. But, like, because, yeah, like, obviously coming back to like, just like weird shit. Like, humans are obviously like this kind of man. We're literally just like biological beings on this, like, spinning ball of whatever. But then it's like, well, where does, like, the kind of artistic and creative side of, like, humans and just like the world come from if we are just biology? Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think, yeah, music. I think music's like the most powerful thing to like.

Yeah.

Emotion or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like literally. Yeah. Like you can sit in a empty room, if you put like a certain song on, it can take you to, like a place or like, I feel like everyone has a handful of those songs where it literally brings them to, like a specific place in time.

And me, for me writing music, I went in like a drastic. Not change in direction, but, like, my music was kind of a bit more trendy. And then.

Well, I remember listening to the first one I heard from you was Clap.

Exactly. And then put out after Clap was Move on, which is completely like the opposite. And, like, Older and Move on were, like, similar in their own, like, and they're so different from Clap. But it was. That was me. Me and Callum. That was our, like, first, like, kind of couple of collaborations that we had done, and it just unlocked that completely different potential. And all of a sudden, I was addicted then to having people feel away when they're listening to my music.

Yeah.

I was really apprehensive before I put Move on out, but as soon as I'd done it, I just knew that if I help someone or put words to the way that they're feeling in that moment in time, then I'm doing my job as an artist, as a songwriter. Because now that song doesn't live for the month or two months that it was, like, out after it's out. Sorry. So, like, a lot of shelf life is, like, a few months in music sometimes, because it's just that trendy song for now, and then people just have it in their playlist and forget about it. Yeah.

So true, actually. Whereas stuff that's, like, if it hits you.

Yeah.

Just, like, deeper. Like, there's always, like, a few songs you go back to for, like, fucking forever. So you like. Yeah. Like, your parents will have songs that, you know, they still listen to from their, like, teenage years, whatever.

And if, like, you.

They have that connection to.

If you listen to, say, move on and you. And you were going through a breakup at the time or something. Let's just say you jumped into a relationship since and you go for a breakup, like, bomb. All of a sudden you're playing it again.

Yeah.

Just because it helps you and it sticks with you, and it's a song that's with you for life. And someone asked me in a different podcast whether or not they think is music timeless? And it definitely is just specifically because of people's own, like, interaction with the song, what they're doing in their life at the time, if they want to be reminded of a time in their life. Like, how many times have you ever spoke to your parents or just any adult, and they'd be like, oh, I remember this song. Or this song was 1982 or something like that. How do they know that now?

Like a teenager again, how do they.

Know that this song was released in 1982? It's the same way that we talk about, like, the 2010, 2012, whatever. Because.

Yeah, you just know, like, certain songs, they're, like, timeless.

Yeah.

Mr. Bright side or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, there's a generation.

So. Yeah, there's definitely A crazy side to, like, the creativity of music. The. That's why it'll always be a thing. That's why people like me are able to work and live and do music for a living. Because there's always going to be a need for it. It's always going to be something that people want to listen to.

Yeah. It's actually mad because, like, I wonder where it would go because obviously in the past, I don't know, 20, 30 years, like, particularly at the past 10 years, I guess, like, technology is coming to way more like laptops and shit. I wonder, like, it's kind of similar, like, with just life in general. Like, where the Are we gonna be in, like, 20 years? Like, people gonna be in, like, VR headsets writing music from their brain and shit. Mmm.

That. Yeah, that's a legit, though.

Like, you'll be able to maybe just think it.

Think of me. That would make my life so easy.

Well, yeah, I suppose.

Honestly, it made my life so easy. So I was like, my whole writing process just hearing an idea in my head and then. Then trying to put the music to the idea that I'm hearing, like, being like, yeah, I gotta find a guitar or piano and play that melody in. And if I imagine. If someone just played it for me. Yeah, just be so ideal.

Yeah, it's mad.

You make your life a lot easier as well. You go back to making house, doing your morning.

Yeah, well, yeah, to be fair, I always say, like, if I wasn't. I don't know if I. If I didn't have to make any money and, like, I wouldn't do all the time, but, like, I would probably more than make music. I'd make, like, a horror film. But, I mean, I hate horrors. But, yeah, I've always just had this weird feeling. I want to make a horror film. And I started making one when I was like, 16 years old and then just. Just didn't finish it.

That gives me fear now, considering about the way I walked into your apartment earlier and there was cling film all over the floor and I literally thought.

I just walked into the cast going on and it literally looks like, yeah, if you walk at nighttime as well, I should probably go around and, like, put, like, ketchup on it and just call concierge up and be like, coming to Halloween.

To be fair, no, people would.

That would pass as, like, a Halloween joke. People think that's a Halloween thing rather than.

Yeah, I mean, very much.

Working on a flat, banging all day.

Oh, my God, I didn't even think of that. But, yeah, that's another thing. Scripts for movies. People always ask me, oh, how do you. How do you even write a song? Blah, blah, blah. And for time, I just never really was able to fathom because it's just part of my setup to be able to know how to make music or how to put something together. And the only way I sort of managed to, like, empathize with their thoughts was just thinking, how does someone make a script or not script, but like a movie? And then when you're piecing together, like, yeah, like the shot, the context, but, like, I just think they're really, like, minor conversations within a movie and, like, just really, like, nothing scenes, you know, I mean, because I could think of, like, the big scenes, what needs to happen, like, this is the plot, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But how do you just unwrap that all into an hour and a half of movie? Yeah, it's crazy. And I can't even think of where to start. And that's where I think that people must think about music. Like, where do you even start? Yeah, it's all good. Like, I really want to make a song about this, that, and the other. I just don't know how to put the words or tell the story or build it on, like. And, yeah, that's. That. That's. That's. For me, personally, I just feel like that's the same thing. Like writing a script. Yeah, writing a song.

It's definitely an element of, like, natural talent in there with, like.

Yeah.

Particularly of, like, creative. Well, with most things, to be fair, but, like, in this context, creative things. Like, it's obviously hard work and, like, practice as well, but I think it definitely starts with, like, you know, like, if I. If I sang every day, I'm not gonna sound like Justin Bieber. I'm just not, sadly. Yeah, to an extent.

I mean, you. You'll sound like you. Which is a beautiful thing in itself.

Because everyone sounds unique, as good as.

Him, but he doesn't sound as Masma.

Well, one example, but, like, yeah, I would say it'd be sick if I could sing really well, like. Like Shawn Mendes or something.

Yeah, it comes down to that passion thing as well, though, bro. Like, what is your driving force to want to do that? To impress people? Or, like, I mean, because you just want to sing.

In that case, it's just like, the ability to serenade anyone and just, like, sound beautiful would be good.

How many times do you reckon singers actually just use it to serenade people?

Probably sometimes. Like, yeah, I Used to get my guitar out in front of girls when I was like 18 and we'd try and sit. Well, I would serenade.

Well, I hope you never learn to sing in that case.

Yeah, well, I used to be all right. I'm probably better at freestyle rapping than I am at singing, to be fair. I just don't. I've actually got my guitar here. I haven't played it in like three years.

And we're not gonna start today.

It's a nice Tanglewood acoustic, solid body. Ten years ago, some shit, but let's do it.

Yeah, I think I agree and disagree in terms of. I think anyone can learn anything. I think people like Ed Sheeran are a great example of how you can not sing at all and learn how to sing.

Yeah, didn't I was gonna mention that. Is there like some anecdote where he says he literally couldn't sing?

There's voice training. There's voice notes of him singing when he was. Before he was like, just like who he is now. And they were God awful.

Some of them are all genuinely bad.

Like, genuinely bad. Yeah, but it's about, like, knowing, like keys and things like that and just learning persistence. Like, a lot of the things I can do with my voice even to this day are just trial and error mimicking. Like, if you hear a song and you hear a mad run, you just break it up, slow it down, keep going through it. It's like anything, you know, like how people back in school, like, really wanted to sing, like, rap got by Eminem.

Yeah, yeah.

And like, no one can just go and listen to song and be like. But like, if you learn it, slow it down, know the words, build yourself up, you can. All of a sudden you can do rap called by Eminem, which is like one of like the hardest raps or whatever.

I can rap a whole Drake song.

It's not the same. No, I'm joking. But, yeah, but you know what I mean. Like, you just practice. And it's the same with singing because singing is just about holding notes within the key of the song. And you can only hold notes by training your voice, strengthening your voice, hitting high notes, hitting lower notes, you can. You can increase and, you know, I mean, you can fluctuate with your range.

Yeah, smile, actually.

But with Ed Sheeran as well, if he wanted to sing like Bieber, he still doesn't sound like Justin Bieber. He still sounds like Ed Sheeran. But that's the beautiful thing about music and voice is like, you always sound like yourself. No matter how much you try and sound like someone else. You always sound like yourself. And I always find when people try and sound like someone else, it's so obvious because they just don't sound like themselves, like, fully. So, yeah, if you wanted to start singing, you would never sound like Justin Bieber, but you would sound like you and that.

Do you think you can go from, like, not having a talented voice to, like, training it over years to actually sounding like, you know, someone that's talented?

There are people who get head starts. Yeah, sure. Like, I probably think I'm one of them people. I got a head start because, I.

Mean, yeah, you definitely got better voice than me.

No, but I was able to sing and then. But then you put the work to it.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the same with, like, footballers, for example. Like. Yeah, cool. You can be a good footballer naturally or unnaturally. You might not be a good footballer, but you still got to put the work in if you want to get to that next level. And even if you don't know how to kick a ball at all, you still can put the work in and be at the same level as everyone else. It's not that hard to pick up skills. Like, your voice is still capable of holding notes. Like, if you tried to hit high note, you could. It just sound a bit weird. Put practice to it, then boom. All of a sudden. All of a sudden you're hitting them not. It's, like, easy. It's like anything, man. Like, nothing is impossible. It just takes a bit of, like, dedication, bit of commitment, bit of time and effort. Yeah, that's music.

That's everything in a nutshell.

Persistence, mimicking. Find people that interest you. Find people that, like, light up your soul, Light up your, like, interest. For me, it was people like John Legend. People are just musically, like, gifted. Be able to just sit at piano. Him and the piano tell a whole story for a show. Like, you don't need anything else if you're John Legend. You just need a piano and then, boom, you can tell the whole story.

Yeah.

And I was just like, I have a piano at home. I want to be able to do that. All of a sudden, like, my passion's been ignited. I'm learning piano. I'm sat down on that every evening in my house. Put on a show for, like, my mum.

Yeah, that's lit, you know, Sick, to be fair.

So it's really.

But then it's really.

Every pianist looks at a guitar and thinks, wow, what an instrument. Because it's just what you're not Familiar with, like, it just sounds so different. And guitarists just want to play piano. It's the same thing. And people who can play both can dine.

Well, they're just self bassist.

Yeah, but bassists, like, kind of derives from guitar anyway, so it's like.

Yeah, true, true. Who do you think is the most naturally talented person that's like, in the music world? Well, I was gonna say that's famous in the music world, but I do not think.

How am I supposed to know, though, how much work in your.

Well, in your opinion, naturally talented.

Probably someone like Charlie Puth. He's got perfect pitch, so if you flicker.

I thought he said actually if you flicker. I saw him on TikTok the other day. It was in the head.

Yeah, he's just got perfect pitch, so maybe he had the best head start. But then again, who am I to say how much work he has or hasn't put into achieving, like, his current ability? I don't know. I don't know. Because I don't know anyone else's story. I only know my story.

Yeah, true. What do you think of the Kid Laroi then? Because obviously. Because obviously he's blown up and he's like, fucking 18.

Yeah.

Because when I first heard that, I didn't think he looked anything like. He looks for a start. And then I was like, oh, he's Australian and shit. It's just like, yeah, that Stay song is about.

Yeah, yeah, right. So Kid Laroi is interesting. Kid Laroi, for me, he's kind of a reference point as well. I say to some, like, of the sessions that when I. When I go into sessions, because a lot of people are stuck in like, oh, what kind of genre do you. Like, what kind of genre do you write? Or this, that and the other. And he's just the perfect example if they've ever listened to any of his stuff, then I'm just like, music is going in a very Gen Z direction where people like Kid Laroi, they'll drop a song on their album that's like trappy and. Yeah, well, not. Then they'll put out that song, like, without you. Yeah. Which is like just acoustic in guitar and it's all just a bit like poppy. And then they put out State with Justin Bieber, like, the next time. And every song is different genre. But, like, he remains consistent in his sound and voice and story. And that's why I feel like genres are going. Everything's being like binded together. Genres are crossing over. Like, the lines are very blurred these days. So he's a great example of how modern music is like taking a turn for artists are the genre of their own music now. Like, we just tell the story and the music behind it is just an influence of everything we've grown up with. Hence why I say Gen Z. Because it's just like it's not like the 80s where everything's disco. It's not like, yeah. Genres where everything's rock and roll.

Probably because of the Internet in it. Social media.

Precisely. And things like tick tock sounds are changing consistently, like really quickly. Nostalgia is being brought into music now. So like you've got people doing punk rock and things that they grew up with just. Because when I hear punk rock, I instantly. I'm like transported back to when I was like 5 years old and I was listening to Busted.

Yeah.

Like, it's just crazy. And then I take punk rock, I take rap, which I've grown up with. I take the singer, songwriter genre of like Ed Sheerano, Scarpaldi type vibe. I just take it all and I just tell my own story. Because that is your sound. At the end of the day, if any artist wants to know how to create a sound, just listen to all the things you love to listen to, everything you love to create, take what you like, what speaks to you the most from each of those genres. And that tends to just be your sound. If you love how Ed Sheeran writes his music and tells his story, but you love the beats behind Drake's music. No one's telling you that you can't just tell a story on a Drake beat. That that would then be your sound. People like don't want to blur lines until someone else has paved the way for them. Like no one has to do it before you for it to be acceptable. Sometimes you can be outrageous with it. People like Lady Gaga, like wearing meat dresses to like, you know what I mean? It's just crazy. But until someone does it, no one else. And now you've got VMAs or something like that and like there's loads of people in weird dresses and like you go met Gala and it's just. It's nuts. Yeah, but back in the day it was only Lady Gala doing that sort of stuff. Everyone else was just in like, what everyone else wanted them to. What the designers wanted to make. No one was trying to push the boat out until someone goes and does it. So like, I feel like if in life you can be the pioneer, then like, that's your calling. If you can see it before someone else does, don't Just not do it because no one's doing it. Do it because no one's doing it.

Yeah, that's so true.

Find the pocket. Like, the same with.

Yeah. People would be like, well, for example, like E Commerce. Oh, no one's doing that because it doesn't work. When actually you could be like, no, no one's doing it because I'm first.

Yeah.

Like someone's. There's Uber.

Ultimately, take Uber or something ridiculous like that. Oh, why would people want to use.

An app to get a taxi like Airbnb as well?

Why wouldn't people want. Yeah.

There's so many examples. And then everyone's like, oh, I had that idea.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you didn't do it.

Yeah. So it's nuts. It's nuts.

And there's always, like, the next thing. Like around here, there's like, these instead of Uber eats. It's now like, grocery delivery has become massive. So I never go to fucking shop to buy shit now. Because there's like apps like get it Gorillas or whatever. And I think, oh, that was obvious. But until someone does it, no one, like, adopts it.

Yeah. And that's another thing. If you, like, you're talking about scripts and songwriting. I wouldn't even know how to create an app like some people do. It's just if you know how to do it, it's very easy to then look at the world in a different way. Where nothing is kind of impossible. Things very accessible. If you know how to create an app.

Yeah.

I don't think you'd look at half the things that go on in the world and be like, oh, that can't be. That can't be fixed by just like, simple click of a button.

Yeah. So true. Yeah. Like, everyone's got their thing, but most people are just too fucking afraid to a do that thing. Because I think someone's better than them.

Yeah.

Or might be the first one to do it. Isn't it? But everyone wishes they'd started something. Ten years like you. The best time to start someone was yesterday. Second best time is now. It's like, that's the way of looking at things.

100 and I am. I take a good example in terms of Lil Nas X when he put old time word out.

Yeah.

But Old time road out. And it was just a country song with a trap beat. How easy is that? How easy is that? And it goes completely viral. Completely, like, biggest song in the world. It was just because he saw it. People like, country and trap don't mix.

Yeah.

And Even after he put it out and it was the biggest song in the world, people still just were trying to put their beliefs onto what was already happening. Which makes them then look crazy. Yeah, because like, they were putting their own doubts and fears and like, own opinions on like, oh, how can it be in the country charts when it's not a country song?

But it is a country, so it's.

A country, to be fair, is a country song. It's just got hip hop influence. It can be in both. It should have been in both.

Yeah, just.

It's about who wants to do it. Yeah, man. Yeah. That's another thing I want to do. Just make music with everyone who I'm inspired by. And currently I've just been given the green light to be able to sort of like pitch music, pitch ideas to heist that I look up to. I won't say who or anyone yet because, you know, I mean, you need to make the songs and pitch them first. But it's, it's, it's a really promising motivational time to be a deeps just because, like, everything you work towards, when it, when it starts to work out, when you're finally in the rooms that you were once begging to be put in and, and it's all just come in like naturally and you don't have to like, do anything extra, make it happen. Obviously you still put in the hard work and you still like, do your thing when you're in the rooms. But in terms of you're not having to like, knock on people's doors and be like, please. And your work's just finally just being showcased and people are interested in you because of what you're doing and, and that's the dream really. And like, you just want to be able to do what you want to do for the rest of your life. Regardless of if right now I'm at the bottom of the ladder or at the top of the ladder, I'd rather be at the bottom because that just means there's a journey for me to, to go on. Now if I hit the top or I peak. Not peak like, but you know what I mean? Like, if you just go in and you like straight into the thick of it, then, like, it's quick to. You can be quick to forget. Like, there's fun in being in the moment. Like, it's fun to just enjoy what you're doing now because later on in life, maybe when you're doing like a world tour or something like that, and you don't get five minutes peace to Yourself.

Yeah, true.

Five minutes to sit down, talk to a mate just over a podcast or something like that, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's crazy. Like this moment right now might be something.

I wish I could pay for this next year. See if you can fit it in.

But yeah, but it's just crazy. I just, just make sure, I keep reminding myself, be grateful. Have gratitude for everything that's coming my way. Enjoy life with people I love and I'm surrounded by and just be in the moment, be aware of everything that's happening around me because I'm never going to be in the moment twice. So.

Yeah, so true. I'm really bad at that. Trying to get better at that.

Yeah, it's a mindset thing. Did a lot of mental work at the start of lockdown. A lot of podcasts, I don't like a whole Tony Robbins 30 day course. All of them were just like proper eye opening things. And what's crazy about a lot of these podcasts is people. Oh, it's kind of just like majority of it was just a bit. But if you can come out of like an hour conversation with one bit of value.

Yeah.

If people come out of this podcast, a lot of the, a lot of the time they might think, oh, it was just them to just change it for two hours. If they can come out of it with some value, maybe they heard something I said earlier on about the industry that they didn't know beforehand and maybe if someone's going in the industry or they know someone is about to go in the industry that they can like enlighten them on some of the things that happen, then boom. We have not have we only done our job. But they've got value. And I think if you can get value just even if it's one or two things from anything in life, then it was worth doing. It's worth going on a course. I'm even going on a course. Like what's the day today? Thursday, Saturday. Going to Watch out Middleton. Oh yeah, he's doing like some like motivational speaking tour and you know, I just thought give him a chance because why not? What's there to lose? You can only gain from scenarios. Obviously you give people your time and time is very valuable.

But that's the theme.

What else would I be doing with my time this Saturday? Probably just going and drinking at a party or something. So.

The custom dibs chain.

Custom Fred Legend. Yeah. Halloween not gonna do.

Oh yeah, it's Halloween.

I'm gonna skip Halloween this year.

Yeah, probably. I'VE got no plans.

It's not about plans. I just find it a bit scary. But that's another story.

Okay, then I come back here and fake.

God. God, no.

Right, okay. Before we wrap up, then, well, briefly few quick fire questions, I suppose, off the top of my head. If you could tour with anyone right now, who would it be?

Jeremy Zucker.

Who?

Jeremy Zucker.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I like him.

Very good. Very good artist. He's just. He's my favorite artist, actually. I. I'd say. I think I base people on their bodies of work and he has the most bodies of work that I am in love with. Like, in terms of EP's, albums, I just love a lot of his stuff. But, yeah, I think he'd. He'd be one that for right now, would just make the most sense as well, because he'd be playing shows saying in the uk that were of a good size even for me, like coming in now, because obviously you could say Bieber or someone like that. But a lot of the time when you go and watch these artists, like Jeremy Zucker or this not smaller ice, like, that's just like outrageously offensive to say small, but, like, they're not just like that mad, like industry plant level of, like, people or something like that, like selling out Wembley or something like that. They're just in, like nice venues where people are just there to listen to good music. And like, if you're coming across with a similar vibe, I feel like you have a great chance. I feel like supporting other artists is an amazing, amazing, amazing thing. And I don't just mean supporting their work. Is it like sharing it, Blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, like literally supporting them at their shows. Yeah, because it's free advertisement. You go there, there's a room full of a thousand people. It's captive audience. It's like petrol on a motorway. Like, they're there already. They're there for music, they're waiting for their thing. They might as well be entertained rather than just listen to some dj. So if you come on and you wow that crowd, you've got another. Like, if in a room full of a thousand people is. You might pull out another, like two to 300 fans, like from that one performance. Yeah, if you smash it and I say Jeremy Zucker because I feel like he was a similar. Right. Genre. Like, he's the right fit for some of the stuff I'm doing currently. So it would make the most sense because his fans would be inclined to like, like my music as well. So, yeah, There you go jamie.com.

Sick. Where do you want to be in a year's time?

Years time? I want to have broken my. My million. The like million plays on just one song. I don't know if I've done it collectively by this point yet. But yeah, I want a million plays on a song minimum. And I want to be chatting. I don't know, I don't want to written for a few of my favorite artists as well. I feel like the writing side and things is like really, really close right now as well. So I want to have done that as well. I want to have been to like LA and being rooms. One of my dreams is to just be in one of them like cool studios, you know, where it's like a massive. I'm currently doing that now in London. But like, where's a massive like almost like block. And have you ever heard of like people saying, oh, I just jumped in on like, I heard it was like Kanye in the next room. So I just popped my head and I said hi. And like all of a sudden he was, I'll just come in and jump on the session. But like that's what I want to be doing. So yeah, yeah, I would say in a year's time, that's, that's what. And I want to be on some sort of tour whether I'd be supporting someone or by myself. But. But yeah, I just feel like there's some matter of time. As soon as I have the one song that goes off, I know I have like that consistency to just carry on with the momentum. People like Lewis Capaldi done it, someone like you, someone you love, sorry. Goes off and that. They just have the music in the bank to just follow it up. So yeah, yeah, that's what I'd say about a year.

All right, last question. If you could go back to being 15 with the laptop, what advice would you give, knowing what you know now to your 15 year old self in terms of like the music industry and getting where you want to go and so on.

One, don't ever doubt your content. Don't be afraid to post content. The most poisonous thing you can do is worry about other people's opinions. Because I think, I think any. I think anxiety is just looking at life through the eyes of someone else. Because I don't think I'd be scared of anything if I didn't consider anyone else's opinion. Like this podcast for example. Like maybe at the start, not that I actually felt uncomfortable or anything, but even if you felt a bit like nervous how this is going to go. It's not because of you that I care about, it's because of the person, the other side of the camera, I think. Oh, maybe don't think this guy's an idiot, like just chatting shite the whole time. But, you know, I mean, so I'm considering someone else's opinion when really I should just be focusing on my own life and making sure I just give everything the best that I can and that's good enough, you know, I mean, yeah, because you can't do more than give your all. So, yeah, I would give. I'll give myself that advice and I'd say just put content out as much as you can on social media. Just try and grow your social media from a young age. Jump on things when they're the least popular as well. Stuff like Tick tock. Yeah, jump on it when people roast you for it, because that's when no one else is on it.

Yeah, true enough. TikToks like Instagram, that'd be another one. Yeah. And it's like, how do you think ahead? But you don't even have to just.

Go, pick it up when it's young. Pick it up when it's young. Because even my best mate picked up TikTok just before it was like mainstream and like, he's got like 8 million followers now on TikTok.

Really?

Yeah, it's just, he just had it early and he just was consistent with it as well. And yeah, you're paid for taking risks like that when you don't care about other people's opinions. Obviously there's time and place to consider other people's opinions, but, like, in the long run, I feel like people just do it too much in life, me being one of them, definitely. So these days I just try and stop myself when I'm not focusing on myself, I'm focusing on what other people think. Shows and things like that shouldn't be nervous. People say, oh, well, you're not nervous going to your. Well, you're not nervous before you went on. On stage. How. How would you be nervous if you went to work? Like, the only reason I'd be nervous was because I was thinking like, oh, wonder what people think of this show. I wonder what they're thinking right now. And it's kind of jarring as well. When you're doing live music because you're looking out on a crowd and you imagine if you have someone fully captivated in what you're doing, they are still as a rock and they're like, Just looking at you. And the majority of the time like it's just their resting face. Sometimes it looks pretty unimpressed as well. Like they're just like staring at you and only people are watching the video. Be able to see this, but it'd be like. And you're just like, oh God, I don't think they're enjoying this. And then afterwards they're like trying to hunt you down to tell you how good the show was and you're just like, well, God, like you wouldn't be doing that if you didn't think it was good because you'd be long gone and moved on. So, yeah, that's the advice I'll give 15 year old me just. But I wouldn't change where I am right now at all because I'm there, I'm where I wanted to be. Doesn't really matter about getting there like a year quicker, a year later. I'm there now. So it's just one of them ones. I don't think that maybe something else would have happened. But yeah, it's the butterfly effect, isn't it? You do something differently back then and all of a sudden you're a farmer in Paraguay.

Like, very true, very true. So yeah, deep words from deeps.

Yeah, yeah. You would not be the first to make that joke.

Yeah, right. Well, that was really interesting. We could probably go on for like fucking three more hours. Like every podcast episode really just go. Starts to go down like a rabbit hole and it's like you forget what we're originally talking about. We start talking about like, yeah, fucking human consciousness and shit and being a farmer in Paraguay. But it's good. Yeah. Hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll probably end up doing a part two at some point, maybe in a year's time when.

Yeah, I love that. I'd absolutely love that. Just to have that. Like, I think Billy Eilish done it with like GQ or something. Goes back every few years and it's just a comparison podcast. But yeah, I'll catch up on everything I've done from this point onwards might actually do on the same day. Let's try it. What's the day today? What's the date?

The day? 20 eigth of October.

20 eigth of October, right. 20 eigth of October 2022.

Pressure on me to keep doing these every week as well, which I will do. Yeah, sweet.

We'll see where the podcast is, see.

Where I am, see where we both are and yeah, peace. See you on the next one. Bye.

Bye.