Reflections, Life Lessons & Advice to my Younger Self - Matt Kelly | Midnight Podcast Episode 40

I think there's probably nothing harder to deal with than thinking you've made it and then have feeling like you've had almost all of it taken away from you. Yeah, like that's fucked. That's way harder than just having never made it. I was basically either gonna fucking kill myself or become a legendary entrepreneur. In my, in my head there was like the two options. In a way, that's kind of how I felt. It was like I can either fucking give up and probably just top myself or be close to it, or I can fucking go back to the drawing board and become like the fucking beast that I know I'm capable of becoming. You have to look yourself in the mirror and fucking decide. Right then, fellas. Another sponsor for the POD is probably something you're very familiar with if you're in the E Commerce space. It's certainly something I am. It's Wayflyr. Cashflow is the biggest killer of any fast growing econ brand as I probably more than most know very fucking well. Go and watch episode one if you haven't already. Wayflyer is an E Commerce funding partner. Essentially they confront you to cash for a month or so worth of sales. You need to. You need a minimum of 6 month sales, minimum 20 grand a month I believe right now if you've got a brand that you're super, super passionate about, you want to scale it quick. But cash is a problem to invest in inventory, mainly marketing, overheads, team costs, whatever it is, you can get funded in as little as two to three days. It's literally that quick. No bullshit bank loans, no personal guarantees. I've worked with them personally in the past, took a six figure sum off them. Plenty of guys I know in my network and people have been on the POD and run massively successful brands have also used them as a funding partner because everyone knows at scale, cash flow is the biggest killer. Even if you are profitable. If you think this could be a fit, potentially you could be a fit for them, then go click the link below. Speak to the guys at waveflyer. It's a referral link so we get a little fee. You save a little bit as well. Support the pod, support your business. Cash is king, especially in this market. Let's fucking go.

Welcome or welcome back to everyone's favorite podcast. It's the Midnight Pod with the brunette shorter version of Matt Kelly.

Today.

I'm Luc run a couple of agencies. One a TikTok first and another is a creative agency and recently also ventured into the world of E Comm. And acquired a part of an E comm brand. So I spoke to Matt and we said that I would take over today to interview him because I know a.

Lot of people, people are wondering what the fuck's going on. I'm sat in the seat for the first time in 41 episodes. Wherever he is, he's in the hot seat.

But yeah, welcome in the problem child. The.

Yeah, exactly.

The CEO of Space Goods.

Matt.

Welcome.

Know, I think that is. I fucking hate when people say, like one man. Team founder. Yeah, founder. Yeah, I suppose. Geez, I'm gonna probably fucking find it hard to be a guest on this, I guess I wanted to do. I've had a few people message me, like, particularly the past few months, saying, when are you gonna do a full in depth episode? I know I did sort of an episode in that respect on the 44 pod with Franco and those guys. But yeah, that was like pre space good. So it wasn't. I definitely covered everything and I just feel like it'd be useful. Maybe it sounds like the fucking most arrogant, egotistical thing in the world, but that's not intention. I guess. It would just be useful, I think, to put a fucking like a solid episode out almost just for me more than anything, so I can look back in years to come. Which is ultimately what all this shit's about, really.

Saying it's like therapy as well. And you know, I think there's a lot of shit about you online. Not bad shit, but there's like stuff about you in different areas and it's kind of piecing all that together and then like bringing some deeper questions to you that maybe you wouldn't have been asked before in other pods.

Yeah, exactly. Because I probably find myself trying to speak about certain things in certain episodes. But then obviously when I'm the host, it's not all about me. It's never been about me, but I chime into a lot of stuff. Yeah. And yes, a few people messaged me. I just thought, fuck it, let's just do an episode, I guess, about me. We'll probably get you on the fucking pod next as well, Nick, Because I'm running out of time. Running out, I guess. Exactly. I've just hired a full, not full time, part time booking assistant. She's probably watching. She's doing a great job. But yeah, like fucking rinsed my network so much. So I guess this is probably the definition of that. Me coming on my own pod as a guest. But that's not why, I suppose it's just a piece of Shit together. But yeah, I'm also. Luke's has got a pod that he launched recently. So I guess a bit of cross pollination he can fucking practice as well. If this ain't a cracking episode, it fucking better be.

Fucking spotlights on you. But I better do a good job as the, as the map.

It's actually better for my neck sitting here, you know, because I find sitting there. That's why I want to get a new sofa. I just got a bean bag.

It's very low in the sea.

Yeah. I ordered two bean bikes but only the beans came anyway. So I want to get like actually eye contact on the pod.

Yeah.

As in like people looking at each other. Yeah. A bit like Diary of Sea or something. Like a more normal setup because it's a bit of a. It's not ergonomically the best.

Yeah. I got a friend in radio and she. That was her comment on my pod. Like actually facing each other means for a more, you know, intimate.

Even now it's like. I mean this angle's better but like when I'm always sat there I'm always consciously like fuck, my neck's so cricked. Yeah.

But anyway, let's fucking get into it then. So I think we'll, we'll follow a similar format to usual. So I think let's just go back to. Let's go back to the start. Like what were you like growing up as a child?

What did. Yeah.

What did your childhood look like?

Yeah, fuck. So I guess if that's the question I was asking it like what the fuck do you do? Well, I guess, yeah. Anyone that doesn't know me, I'm a fucking E comm entrepreneur. Been in the game a while. I think my story is probably quite. Probably quite unique. Certainly I think pretty interesting because of probably like the amount of shit I've done and just like stories and certainly the ups and downs which I think no one fucking speaks about which is like the whole premise of this pod. At least initially it was fuck yeah. Going back to sars. But I suppose I'm from. From York. I grew up in the north. Non identical twin brother. Pretty standard like middle class family. Mum was a nurse. Fucking dad was an architect. Does something in management, a building company now he'll probably hate me for saying that. Yeah. Went to fucking state school like I guess proudly went to a state school. I've always been a bit of a cunt. Been. I have a chip on my shoulder for people that come for money and shit. Definitely wasn't me yeah, pretty standard fucking school upbringing, I guess. Skipping past to about the age of like, 12, I became obsessed with rowing. That was like, the first thing that I was ever really good at, but I was good at it because I fucking got obsessed with it and enjoyed it. And then between like, the age of like, 12 and 18, I was, like, obsessed with rowing. Then I got into, like, a phase of. Probably started being interested in entrepreneurship, broadly speaking. Probably always knew. I actually think I knew when I was like 10 years old that I was gonna be an entrepreneur. Didn't even know what the word was.

Was there, like, that moment. Because there, the cliche thing that every entrepreneur seems to have where they, you know, they did that thing like fucking selling shells on the beach or selling sweets in school. Did you have any of those, like.

Glimmers a little bit. It's definitely not like the fucking selling trash bags door to door, like, story, but that's kind of what I was gonna say. So, like, it was obsessive rowing. Then kind of fell out of love with that, like, on the side when I was, like, 16, 17, like, I got, like, perfect A stars, like straight A stars, perfect GCSEs, A stars and everything. But then I got into A levels. I mean, GCSEs aren't hard, but, like, I guess I was good at a lot of stuff at school, like, academically. And then I got to A level, started being a bit, like, lost. Like, what the fuck do I actually want to do? So end up getting B's in my A levels when I should have got A stars. It's not that deep now, but that meant that I couldn't because that bit of me wanted to go to try and go to, like, Oxford, do the boat race. That was like. Because I was really into rowing. But then that didn't happen. Basically, I fucked up my A levels and then I went to Northam Rear Uni. But just tracking back. I mean, Northumbria is shit, but we'll get onto that tracking back a little bit. So started getting interesting kind of online stuff broadly. Like, I was always interested in, like, logos and shit. Started a bit of ebay, like, Amazon Arbitrage when I was maybe like, 16, 17. That's probably like the first ever online thing I did. I think I bought some fucking course on, like, affiliate marketing, which I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. It's just like kind of dabbling a little bit, probably. I don't know if I was like. I didn't really have any. It was more the fact that I didn't want to be like everyone else just by default. I wasn't really sure how or why, but I just always remember feeling like I don't want to be like everyone else.

What do you think that came from?

Probably comparison with my brother because non identical twins. We're twin brothers but we're nothing alike. We don't look anything alike. We're very, very different characters.

Who would you say when you were younger, like is that like a deep rooted thing where it was like competitive or you know, did you. Was he more talented in certain things? Was it? Yeah. What did that look like then?

We were just compet. I hate all the time, I think. But we had the same friend group and shit. We were both good at school. He also rode. I was better at rowing and he would agree that's a fucking fact. Just faster. I won more shit. We both actually played in a band as well. I did a lot of shit when I was younger. Like I was playing guitar as well alongside all this in a band while I was rowing, while I was at school. And then yeah, I suppose. Yeah, we probably. Maybe this is like a fucking therapy session. Maybe that's why I felt like I wanted to be like different and just do different shit. And like started being like rebellious in my mind at least when I was in A level saying I don't want to go to uni. But I ended up fucking going to uni because I didn't know what else to do basically. And as most people do. Yeah. And at that point I was still dabbling around in like actually was I. Maybe it's when I was 19. Yes. I dabbled around a few like things online. Certainly wasn't like the 16 year olds fucking printing money, dropshipping or anything. Went to uni to study ironically entrepreneurial business management. I'll try and bring the story up a little bit because it gets more interesting after this point. Studied entrepreneurial business management at Northumbria and I was like, fuck this. I didn't want to be there by the way. Like I knew I would leave before I even started. But it was just like best of a normally shit situation. It wasn't a shit situation, but best of a standard situation. I wasn't going to Oxford to do the fucking boat race. Didn't have a million pound business yet. Like fucking no one does when they're 18. So I went to Northumbria to do entrepreneurial business management. Bit of a scam of a course to be honest. In hindsight. Stayed for six weeks Because I decided it was a fucking scam of a.

Course not run by anyone that had ever run a business.

I mean, I think it's still going, but it was just a weird one. But I thought, you know, being naive, that that would be because I was like, fuck it, I'll go to uni, but I'm not doing like history. I'm doing something that might be interesting and a bit different. Then dropped out of that, came down to fucking London to do a placement because I managed to swindle one through like a family friend, which probably everyone's going to comment, you fucking silver spoon cunt. And it wasn't that, but that's just what happened working because I decided I was going to drop out of uni, maybe go back, whatever. So I came down to like December 2014, did a six month placement in M A mergers and Acquisitions in Mayfair of all places, wearing a suit. I was staying in my uncle's house like an hour and a half train ride out of London and getting paid like 300 pound a month. But it was just like, like looking back, I don't even really remember a lot of time, but definitely taught me a lot. And that actually was the first time. So basically it was a boutique M and a firm. So Nick actually who came on the pod, it's his firm. So that's how we originally met like seven years ago, whatever it was. So Morphos it's called. And yeah they're a boutique M and a firm. So basically buying and selling businesses from fucking entrepreneurs like in sort of mid market level, like 10 to 30 million pound revenue businesses in the facilities management space. It wasn't like ecommerce then. I wasn't fucking interested in facilities management. These are like cleaning businesses and shit. But I remember distinctly meeting the founders of some of these businesses. I just basically shadow people, just go to meetings and fucking make tea. But I was wearing a suit every day in Mayfair. I was like, fucking hell, this is quite cool compared to what I was doing. So I was like chucked in the deep end. Definitely faking it till you make it sort of thing. But yeah, I actually remember people laughing and saying like fucking are you're 19? Like what are you doing here? But I would just, just get on with it. Didn't have any facial hair or anything at the time, so definitely looked fucking young. But I remember meeting these founders of these businesses. One was actually a fire security business called CFS. The two founders, Gary and Steve Quirk, who are two brummy lads I think about would have been about 50 at the time running this 50 million pound a year business and telling me about like the fucking cars they got. Because I was massively into cars and I would go around Mayfair on my lunch break, fucking and you can go scroll down on my Instagram to 2014 and see these pictures. Like I go around taking pictures of fucking Lamborghinis and shit, which are Obviously all just 10 a penny around here, around Mayfair and shit. And that was the first time I'd seen any of that in real life. I was like, wait a minute, like you don't have to be a footballer or a celebrity to potentially get really rich. Yeah, that was the first thing that clicked. Quick one fellows. You probably heard a few months ago I dropped an E. Commerce. A very fucking guru of me. But it's not that, I promise you. 0 to 1 how to start a brand from scratch with no budget, Some budget, a bit of budget. Take your idea from a bedroom to reality to potentially 7, 8 figures in sales like I've done a few times based on my seven years of experience in the trenches and my current experience building my current brand space goods. It's no bullshit, no frills. We've had like 75 people go through so far. Not a single person has asked for a refund. Plenty of people have actually built some seriously impressive shit. Covers every aspect of the business, not just the front end stuff like Most gurus on YouTube and Twitter are talking about. Not just product, market and all that shit, but the real shit, the logistics, the back end, the supply chain, the customer service, the finances as well. This covers the whole spectrum, every part, 12 hours of video. If you're interested in scaling a brand zero to one, actually turning our idea finally into a reality, then click the link below, go check out Learn Real Commerce course and let me know what you think. I'll be glad to have you in there. Let's fucking go.

It's interesting because like you say you've come from probably like you said, somewhere like York, I'm guessing quite a closed off bubble.

Yeah, A nice place, just like standard fucking small town ultimately. Small city, big town I suppose. Yeah.

So that obviously gave you those kind of flash glimmers of what you could potentially make and that, you know, like you say you don't have to be necessarily a footballer or whatever to be able to get there. What then was, was, you know, was it the corporate aspect you didn't like? What was it that fucking drove you away from doing that?

Yeah. So the pro of that experience was it genuinely is looking back. It's always funny when you look back. You don't know what you didn't know at the time until you look back and actually deeply think about it. Which one do you know the pro of that? Was it. Yeah, it exposed me to, oh, wait, like you can actually like, do cool shit and have freedom and make money, which is, well, what I wanted. And like fucking stars my eyes sort of shit. Like, wow. Like these guys have got Lamborghinis. Like he's driving a Rolls Royce. Like, that's probably all I cared about. Like, fucking cars, every kid. Yeah. So that was the pro I took, me. But the downside was that, well, I do not want to be wearing a suit every day working, you know, ultimately in a corporate job advising these people. I want to have my own business, but I don't have a facilities management business doing cleaning. Although they're fucking very lucrative. Probably even more so now because arguably less new businesses going into that space. But then I was like, fuck, okay, I went back to uni. So this is like 20, end of 2014. I just broken up with my girlfriend from school who's my first girlfriend, first heartbreak probably. I don't know if she watches any of this shit. She definitely. She still follows me on Instagram. I don't follow her. It's like a follow back. It's kind of deep. But I haven't seen her for like seven years. I went back to uni to. At this point, I was like, fuck doing business again. Because I was like, well, I don't know what's next. I'll go back to uni with that little piece of like that seed planted. And then I went back to do graphic design. I think it was some of that, which is like, better. This was like first year again for me. I remember just thinking, this is better. Like, I enjoy the design aspects, whatever. But I remember distinctly, like people talking about, like salary potential in jobs and shit. And I just remember always being like, fuck that. I'm just gonna do something bigger. I just don't know what it is yet. And then during that year, would it been during that year? Yeah. So during that year, I started a clothing brand called Gentry Club, which fucking. This is like my first ever E Commerce thing, which was literally the shittiest T shirt brand ever. Like, I bought like white T shirts and fucking printed a logo on them. But it was a logo I designed, I think while I was in uni or something.

That wasn't the one with Ollie.

No, that was later on. Come on to that, come on to that. That was actually pretty good. So this would have been 2015, start of 2015. My first ever shop ever. Shopify store. Worked all summer so like skipping on a little bit. Worked all summer in Waitrose and John Lewis actually in 2015, shitty summer job, fucking didn't have any money. Spent literally all my money from that entire summer buying stock and then sold like £200 worth. It was so shit that like kids from school in like the year below would fucking make like Facebook groups to talk about how shit it was. It was like pure bullying. But they're forgiven now because a few of them started buying from other brands later on. That was kind of funny.

But always the way it works.

Yeah. Anyway it's just like classic. Didn't know what the fuck I was doing like at all. Ended up packing that in like just I did quite a few different things that just didn't work. Basically I didn't know what I was doing. Wasn't running paid ads, any of that shit maybe coming on about a few months. So like I started rowing at uni again in like 2016. So I started this leggings brand called Wavy Leggings. So this was like print on demand, colorful leggings for rowing. Slightly better this time. So like six months later maybe I was in second year uni still doing the same course. This sold like 10 grands worth of shit just from like Instagram organic. And I was like wait a minute, well it's print on demand, right? So it had no margin, that was a problem. But I was selling shit. So I thought alright, this fucking econ thing isn't a scam, it works. I was still doing a bit digging online, probably wasn't fully obsessed with E comm at this point. This was like still I don't really remember that period of my life to be honest. Probably just being a degenerate uni to an extent. Trying to figure out what the fuck I wanted to do. And then yeah, I changed course to advertising. So I changed again. I don't know what the fuck I was doing. I was like Jesus Christ, I'm not enjoying this in second year being you know, living in like this house. I was living with like four, no five girls and four boys. No, five girls and three other guys. It was five girls, four boys, nine bed house in Jasmine in Newcastle. It's fucking legendary. To be fair. I was working this burger bar called the Fat Hippo literally over the road from my house and this is where I discovered Facebook ads basically. So trying to fucking move it on a little bit. It's a very long story. This would have been like, summer 2016. Think I'd had another summer working in John Lewis. I fucking hate my life. Like, I literally remember, actually, I remember going around. I worked in the computer section. I would put the website for Wavy Leggings on the screen. That was my advertising. That's a pretty expensive CPA and whatever that was. Probably two hours of time to have five people see it. But, yeah, then coming into basically that brand fizzled off as well. Probably tried a few other things. I think I had, like, this watch. I started dropshipping watches at one point because I made, like, a watch as part of a uni project, or at least I had to design a brand concept and I just turned it into a watch. Bought shitty sample of Alibaba.

There's just touching on this because I think there's a lot of value here for, like, people that are starting. Because I get a lot of messages all the time, like, questions, questions, questions, like, how do I start an E command? How do I start an agency? How do I do this? How do this? There's one same person that's, like, literally done it six months apart, the same guy, and still hasn't started. Like, one thing's obvious there is that you fucking just tried shit and just. Just saw what clicked and just.

Just.

That's how you started learning. What advice do you have there for, like, people who are unsure, they want to get into entreprene entrepreneurship or fucking starting a business, but they don't know what their thing is and they. Or they don't know how to start. Because I think a lot of people's biggest hurdle is that they don't start.

Yeah, honestly, like, doing this sort of podcast with this one specifically because I'm fucking literally ramming my brain thinking about the timeline. Like, the first thing to know is I've been doing this a long time and I'm still fucking figuring out which I've been very public about. But I think I'm pretty, pretty good at it now because I've been fucking doing it a long time. But obviously, before you see any success, which, again, I've spoken about, like, Q&As and shit, it ultimately comes down to this because if you haven't seen some at work, there's almost no logic in keeping at it, really, like, technically. But obviously the fucking logic for me was I know I'm not gonna get a normal job, so it's a figure something out or I'll fucking die trying. I was literally that, that, that much conviction, like, I honestly think that's a genetic thing. I don't think you can really.

I don't think you can in terms of entrepreneurship.

I still know people from seven years ago that haven't started and they've been saying for seven years they're going to start something. So you're not going to start something.

Genetic like you can't make.

Maybe it's not genetic, but like, I think it's a combination probably of genetics and, I don't know, life experience trauma in some way or whatever. I don't know. It's something that I just think you either have it or you don't. In terms of just starting and doing rather than just talking, I think as.

Well, like, just like looking at first what your actual fucking passions are. Because if you do something that you genuinely love, forget, like monetary value aside, if you do something you genuinely love or you know, you're passionate about, you know, if that. Then you can monetize that down the line. It's more likely you're going to win at that compared to the guy doing it that doesn't love it.

That's the most true thing ever. And again, repeating shit I've said in previous pods. But now it's trendy to start a business, and specifically an online business and probably more specifically an agency or DC brand, in my case a brand. But like, I was fucking. This wasn't cool then. No one was talking about Shopify in 2015. Yeah, no one. I didn't know a single person. It was even entrepreneurial, let alone doing online shit. So I just joined Facebook groups and for me it was like designing logos. That was the first thing that was the foot into the fucking wonderful world of figuring the fuck out. And then I was like, well, I need to monetize my design skills. And that's why I started a shitty T shirt brand. And then that led on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing you get into a fucking rabbit hole and eventually, like you come up with something. But it's a very slow process. It's probably slower for me than a lot of other people. I've said this before, like I was doing shit for like 3 years before I ever even made any money yet. There's fucking doms and they're 18 on Twitter now talking about how they're so sad they're not a millionaire yet.

What's the classic thing like when people see you fucking blow up and are successful, they just Think instantly that you've just done that overnight and they don't actually see like what's gone on behind closed doors that you don't document about. But like you say on that thing about how it's cool now, it's so true. And like any fucking don can just put in their bio entrepreneur, like 12 pound HMRC set that up. Like you can't put professional footballer in your bio because you fucking play football in the park.

Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

It's like a weird space now.

Yeah.

So back on track.

Yeah. I think the answer to that question is yeah, firstly, recognize that it fucking takes ages and if it's not a genuine interest anyway, which for most people by the way, it probably isn't, otherwise they would have done something by now. Like by default, I think just fucking start. Like just start. And like again, this is the most common question I get is how do you meet people? People have this strange idea. I grew up with like five prodigy entrepreneurs that I now hang around with loads of. I didn't fucking know anyone that was remotely entrepreneurial in York or Newcastle. Yeah, I literally fucking bought a one way ticket to Singapore like three years later to meet people at an event. And it was a shit event in hindsight, but I met people. So anyway, that's kind of the point on that. But coming back to the timeline, where was I? So yeah, it gets to like 2016 and I'll try to speed it on. It's a long story and I was like fully checked out of uni at this point. I don't even think I was going. So it was like kind of do or die time this one. I discovered Facebook ads from a Facebook group. I think it was Murray Edwards, like seven figure heroes or some bullshit. I don't know what that guy's doing now. But I started drop shipping jeans. Got that many fucking money. I was like, I'd seen dropshipping online. I was like, wait a minute, I could test stuff here, this might work. I've got no money. Tiny bit of experience now, so made this website selling ripped jeans. This is when like Geordie Shaw was popping like 2016. I was in Newcastle as well as See everywhere. And then that started working basically. I think the website was called Loose Garms or something. And this is what ended up developing to become Dusk NCl, the brand that I had with Ollie. So we were doing, I was doing probably like I don't know, 20 grand a month online. I was like, fucking wait a minute, like we're Actually, I'm making more money here than I would from a grad job and like profit. And then very quickly around that point, then probably like two grand. I had no idea. Like the point was I was selling shit online and it was working, getting like 2 pound CPPs and shit. It was fucking mad. And then long story short, Ollie ends up getting involved. We were like, fuck it. It actually became. So I went from being a drop shipping brand for about five months maybe to a legitimate brand. I was working with James and James Fulfillment, who I work with now, by the way. Accidental Plug. We fucking bought stock and shit. It was a legitimate fashion brand. Like we had Luke Hemmings from 5 Seconds of Summer wearing that Sherpa jacket. So we did, we did the Sherpa jacket and we also had an office, a Regis office that was like 300 pound a month. There's a picture again. Scroll down my Instagram Fucking like 2017. There's an office with a logo and a picture of Elon Musk on the wall. And this like five years ago now, which is very nostalgic.

Not even that long ago.

It's not that long ago, but it feels like it's a long time in the game. Imagine if I was thinking if I'd stuck with that brand, woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't, but like, what could that be now? But that wasn't my path and I think now for good reason, but like I was never really passionate about fashion. It was just fucking working. So that brand ended up doing probably 150, 200 grand in revenue over like a few months.

And that's when Ollie then had joined you by this point?

Yes, Ollie had joined and then I think it only ran for like four or five months. And after that point and then I don't know what it was. It was a combination of things Ollie wanted, like, was just too busy like being a degenerate at uni. Like the year below me, I'd already checked out mentally of uni. I think I already dropped out at this point without telling my parents. And also we actually had, we got sued. I remember some. We didn't have the trademark and it's called Dusk. And I. I don't remember the exact specifics, but they basically said, you can't keep selling with this name. All the stock had the brand name on, couldn't sell it. I think we sold it out with like a sale just to get rid of the stock and basically like partied ways of like no money. So like it was just a learning experience. Yeah, so we just got.

You can't beat those experiences though.

Yeah, 100%. So that happened and then this would bring us to like mid-2017. And this is where I was like, well it. I'm fully left out of uni now. I don't actually even remember like what the exact specific situation was. But I went traveling in Europe by myself, literally by myself to like Germany, fucking Spain, Italy, few other places. Because I was just like I just need to fucking be exposed to some shit that isn't my parents living room. And I was like fuck this. So I started going traveling by myself. My old YouTube channel has all these vlogs on by the way. Like 150 videos from this period.

That's still live?

Yeah, yeah, still live. A lot of it. It's actually quite nostalgic looking back. Did that for a while. I started like a bunch of drop shipping stores at this point because I'd like started to work out Facebook ads from the clothing brand. So I went back to dropshipping which is kind of ironic. So I was kind of branding before I actually scaled dropshipping. But I was just like I don't really have any money. I don't really know what I want to do next. I don't really want to fashion brand again. So let's just fucking do drop shipping thing. I had, I set up a leggings store again. I remember this because I was like well did the leggings before but now I figured out Facebook has so was running that. I don't remember the sort of scale I was doing. Maybe it was like 30 grand a month revenue, making a few grand profit. Like it was fine. I was like, I was in Ibiza in a hostel, fucking loving life. I actually slept on a roof one night. I remember because I couldn't fucking afford to pay for the next night or some bullshit cash flow issues. But then I guess yeah, pretty much full time traveled. Then went to Singapore in 2017. This is like what properly kicked on like my I guess development like network initiat. Went to an event called the E Commerce World Summit which is literally called with like. It was literally hosted by a bunch of like black hat scammers looking back. But I met a guy called Jordan there he was in like a million a month dropshipping. It was like 18 at the time. He's now one of my best mates. He runs a brand called Gleaming. I mentioned him a few times, I and a bunch of other guys and like it was a knock on effect and I was like fuck there's other people that are like me.

Yeah, mate. Honestly, just on that like I think that's such a great point. Like the butterfly effect. I'm such a believer in it, like just doing shit because it could just, you know, alter the path of your, the rest of your life in terms of who you meet. This happens, that happens. And I think like one trend that I'm just seeing here is that like you just put yourself in uncomfortable situations. And I think like being comfortable is.

Fucking dangerous, especially when you're young.

The fact that you're like at that age just fucking go traveling by yourself and all this kind of shit, I think that that stuff makes you and like actually putting yourself in those situations where you are genuinely uncomfortable, that that really fucking develops you not only as in terms of like fucking being the butterfly effect, like you say the ripple effect, but in terms of just you know, training yourself to be in those.

Kind of positions 100%. Like this is actually deep looking back. Like I get so like nostalgic like especially as I'm getting older. But yeah, like went to that event and I was like for the first time in my life again, fucking go look, go look. Back at my Instagram, I met a guy called James Beatty who was big in the space, particularly at the time on like YouTube. I'm not sure what he's doing. I remember him, he was like an OG, probably the OG in like the kind of guru YouTube space. A bunch of other guys from the different countries and shit. And I was like, wait a minute. Like, like leave the, leave the old, the old past behind. Like this is what the sort of I want to be involved in. Like and then I guess kind of speeding forward a little bit. It's a long story. Like basically spent the next nearly two years like full time traveling and this was like legendary times. It's like full drop shipping. Went to Bali for the first time. Went to like Philippines, went to America like a bunch of times. Went to Thailand like three times. Bali again like three times. Europe for a while. Lived in Barcelona twice for like two to two months. Never learned Spanish. But like fucking legendary times. Lived in Bali for a while, a class. Lived as like if I was there for a month or more. I think that's kind of fair. So like short term living like very nomadic, the laptop fucking great.

And were you with people at this point then like you met?

Yeah. So I'd like formed a group at this point. So I would come back to like my parents house in between for maybe like a few weeks. Here and there but I couldn't remember every trip off my head now but like go look at the fucking YouTube. It was like literally like 2017, 18, start of 19 was like flat out travel was drop shipping. So I was still working. Like it wasn't like all just fucking like Monday to Friday was still like I would work in like effectively we work. So probably wasn't wework at the time but like co work spaces, all that shit. Got drop shipping to like I think 800 grand a month at one point. I probably, I probably did over those two years maybe like 6 million in revenue. Made like half a million quid profit, probably some of that. So it's like slim margins but I was like fucking making money. I was, yeah, I was, I was honestly rolling in it. Looking back given how young I was like, which sounds ridiculous to say but if I had, if I knew about like Ethereum back then, mate, I'd have 40 million quid right now. I promise you.

Like we all look back at crypto.

It could have, should have. But yeah, I guess like started fucking spending a bit of money for the first time because of like bought my first Rolex and shit when I was 21. I remember bought an Audi R8 when I was 22. Like that was like I felt like a fucking king, I can't lie.

Yeah, so I think it's an interesting point here because I think there's like, could be people listening that get their first like glimpse of those fucking big checks and like those, you know, that money in the bank kind of thing. What in hindsight, what did you learn from that? From fucking buying and you know, going through that period of like maybe spending a lot of money on materialistic things, you know, what your, what advice do you have on that?

Yeah, so for a start like the only things I spent money on were I guess travel and hotels and shit and then cars, which is actually stupid as fuck because I've just said that I spent two years traveling but I was literally, I would buy a fancy car, leave it at my parents house, drive it around the country and then fucking sell it for a while before I move to London. We'll get on to that. So yeah, like to be completely transparent, I remember I was probably 22 with half a million quid in the bank at one point and like, like business bank. And you actually think about that. That's fucking mental.

Yeah, that is.

I didn't, I didn't even realize I'm. Granted there's probably fucking 18 years watching that. But how did that swing a contest their tick tock drop shippers or whatever. But for me, like, I thought I'd fucking made it, to be honest. And like. And it was, it was definitely, I was doing cool shit and I'd grafted for many years to get to that point, but it was an unheard of level of freedom really. Like it was a pretty fucking sick life. Like I was staying in like five star hotels on points, traveling like first class flights full time, traveling with the boys, living in Bali, fucking meeting girls, meeting new mates and shit. It was a great time.

What did that do, like, to your ego? It's a deep question, but yeah, I.

Probably thought I was invincible to an extent. I mean that got even worse later on. Not worse, but more pronounced later on, which we're probably on to briefly. But yeah, I remember that period, definitely. I don't regret any of that. Like people say, oh, do you wish you'd fucking invested a lot of money instead of buying cars and shit? Absolutely not.

Yeah.

Because some of the stories I have, like some of the stories I have, I honestly think I've got more stories and it's a bit bold claim but like I can't think of anyone that's my age that's seen as much shit as I have. And just from like don't mean that an arrogant way, but I just mean like I created like I wanted, I wanted to fucking see the world and do cool shit. And I did all that and not all of it, you know, still fucking place I want to go and shit. But certainly like a young age. It was a pretty mad lifestyle and I probably didn't even realize how unusual that was because all my mates were doing it. Yeah. And it became normal.

It's a bubble in it very much.

Yeah. So that that period went on. I ultimately ended up moving to London like April 2019, which is kind of like the next chapter in my head. And at that point, like this point worth making, like drop shipping was becoming harder and harder and harder. Probably similar to what I predict will happen with like TikTok organic drop shippers. A lot of which probably there's always.

That thing in there.

Facebook feedback score came out overnight. Like it was harder to run ads. And I basically, I saw this coming for a few months and I was like, right, we need to go back to building a brand, building someone that's like more, more legitimate. Not that dropshipping wasn't legitimate, but ultimately you shipping a shitty product from China, like some people are happy. Most people probably think it's all Right. You know, don't want to refund. Like that's what drop shipping is. I've just been real like it's not the same as building a brand. So then I was like, fuck it, I've got a load of money, a bit of experience and I want to build a brand again. So moved to London Source at this point I was a bit sick of traveling. I was like, it's classic case of the grass is greener. Like if you do somewhere for two years it gets a bit old. And I was like, I want to have more of an established base. Still travel now and then. That's when I met Fred from Sunuchi who fucking everyone wants to get on the pod happening soon. Moved into a place in Kensington with him and another guy and basically like built this hustle house set up. I was a bit more like, I want to focus on work rather than just like enjoy myself a bit less but fucking focus on building the next thing. Built Midnight City at this point over like the next year. Got it like a million quid in the first year. Great. That was like almost felt easy because I'd done it before and I think probably even building a brand was actually easier three years ago than it is now because ads were still a lot cheaper, a lot less competition. Certainly in jewelry. I mean I guess everyone kind of knows this part of the story. 2020 fucking launched Neon beach at the start of that. 2020 was a mad year just on.

That because I think the one like Gap there from such a long timeline.

In my head it's a seven year story.

Like the like you just flew over Midnight City there which is obviously very successful jewelry brand. Like you said it kind of came before that whole like era of yeah those kind of jewelry products that were coming out and all that. But when obviously that you were killing it with that brand. So why did you then make the decision to start Neon Beach?

Like whoa, yeah, this is the thing. Like I don't know many people that have like started brands in many different industries. I think that's probably like the fairly unique skill set I have particularly like having now doing it in a completely different one again. But like maybe that's my downfall. I haven't focused on one thing. But yeah, so I wasn't passionate about jewelry. I built it was a fucking good business. At its peak it was doing like 300 grand a month, making like 60 net profit a month. Like it's a great business that I wasn't really that focused on it. I was just bored and I was Like, I started neon almost as like a. A bit of a joke. And then that scaled ridiculously quick, like, more than anything I've ever heard of and have seen and probably ever will see. So then obviously 2020 was running both fucking scaled way too quick. Like, 2020 was probably a gold mine for a lot, for everyone in E commerce to an extent, to be honest. But then it ended up being also the fucking straw that broke the camel's back for me because all that scale meant there was other problems with supply chains and shit, which XYZ, that fucking story happened. But yeah, like mid-2020, just. I probably thought I was invincible because I was like, fuck, it's pretty unusual. Like, I killed the drop shipping stuff, started a brand and killed it at least, you know, relatively started another brand that had killed it again. And I was running two. Like, at one point the business was doing like 200 grand a month, EBITDA, like at its peak, like on like 1.5 million revenues. It's fucking big business. And yeah, in the first half of 2020, the business did like 600 grand in profit. And I'm there thinking, like, fucking, I'm being millionaire this year, like, properly so. And like, yeah, that was fucking. That was the reality of the situation. So I went a bit silly, like, bought a fucking Ferrari and a Range Rover, living in this penthouse, which is over there, which is fucking sick, by the way. We have some legendary parties in there. Like, probably some of the biggest fucking scenes I've ever seen. Like, no one, no one does that shit. But we were doing it. So, yeah, it was mad, mad time with everyone in the house scaling and.

Shit with that situation, then with like, Neon beach, because obviously very fucking unlucky. But like you said, there was a level of, like, feeling you were invincible. What do you think, you know, you can hold yourself accountable for in that situation? I know it's like a bit of a deep situation, deep question. But like you looking back now, obviously you were very unlucky in this situation. But if you felt like you were invincible, what do you think you maybe got carried away with or could have done differently other than, like scaling too quickly?

Yeah, I mean, again, like, the two brands are very different. Like, there's never any problems with Midnight, so that was always a solid business and still is. And they're both still running, by the way, anyway. But I think probably because Neon scaled so quick and I honestly thought, I can make 100 million quid from this in the next, like three years. Like, that was my mind because I Thought, you know, build this to be like the number one brand in that space and just fucking get an exit. Especially because, like, the conversations I was having, I was speaking to. I was in Universal fucking Music's offices, like, one month in, that wanted to do like a 1975 Tallmade shit that never ended up happening because of COVID 19. And I was thinking, like, fucking dollar signs are flashing. Yeah. And I was like, this is mad. But I was probably more interested in it creatively than monetarily, ironically. But, yeah, I think because that grew so quick, I then probably thought because, like, the previous year I'd done like a million in revenue. I've done more than that drop shipping by that point. Like, much more than that. But then I probably thought, you know, instead of maybe thinking, oh, let's try and do three or four this year from, like, my brands, which would have been way more impressive than the same drop shipping anyway. But I think I just thought, fuck it, let's just see how far we can go. Like, it was a fucking big operation. Yeah. Actually quite mad. Like, this would be like a great case study for, like, I don't know, university students in the future.

How well is it doing now? Do you know anything about it?

The brand now, it's still running. It's not running the same scale. That whole market is not running the same scale. I know more brands in that space that I know for a fact are struggling. I think it was the perfect product for that year because it was Covid people just buying. And it's an indoor accessory. Exactly. Massive AOB. Very little competition initially. But, yeah, fucking 2020 was a very. So, like, yeah, it was a very good year. Probably thought I was invincible. Looking back now, like, some of the shit I did was stupid. Like, why did I need to fucking change? I had this green Audi R8, which I fucking love. Still the best car I've ever had. Why do I need to upgrade that to a convertible Ferrari? Completely just being like a arrogant little cunt that probably just wanted people to look at me. So it's just that I loved cars. But, you know, looking back now, I wouldn't do that again. I wouldn't be like smashing and grabbing so much. I was just always like, there needs to be more, there needs to be more.

I think that's just natural though, isn't it? It's like you probably looking at yourself five years before that and then looking at yourself at that point. There's always that thing where you always want more and more and more, and that's like, the difficulty. And that's kind of what I'd like to come on to a bit later when we talk a bit more about space goods and, like, talking about this massive exit. You know, there's always that feeling of wanting more. And it's like when you hear these mad stories of. I know this is like, a bit of a mad tangent. We'll get on track. Back on track in a. In a sec. But with, like, celebrities, when you hear these, like, mad sex stories where they're, like, pissing on each other and, like, shitting on each other, like, they always need that. That higher level of stimulation because, you know, they're so used to getting that thing that they need more and more and more.

Yeah.

It's the same thing when you're, like, buying flashy shit. Like, suddenly it becomes the norm and you just need that next feeling.

Yeah. Oh, so true. I actually have a note in my phone. And I remember this because of what you just said. I have a note in my phone from maybe May 2020, when I was still at that green Audi R8, which is fucking sick car, by the way. And I remember writing it, and I think I wrote something along the lines of. Because the context was I'd gone out for a drive, which I used to do now and then by myself or with mates or whatever. Just, like, drive my car in the sun. And I remember stopping and thinking, fuck, wait a minute. This brings me no pleasure anymore. I was kind of deep. I actually wrote a note in my phone. I don't know exactly what it says. I'll try and find out this or something. And it was like, you cannot. And it was something like, material things can only bring you so much fulfillment. Yeah. And it will always end. The only true fulfillment is from living things. It was somewhat like that. It was kind of deep. Basically, I was saying, like, you just. It's empty. And the next level will only tickle that fancy for a while.

I think that's why. And I was chatting to. I had on my podcast, ex CFO of Tesco, like, fucking mad career, like, WH Smith as well, and Thomas Cook and some huge fucking corporate companies. And he. Like, we. We were. We were chatting, like, literally about that as well. And it's. It's. It's. He was kind of saying and making this point of, you know, you always get that feeling through materialistic, whether you need more and more. So what's important is that you find your anchor point. Like, what genuinely you believe. Believe as a person. And then when you're going through your career and these things can take you off track. Like fucking. When you make a certain amount of money, your ego can go off piece slightly and it makes you do X, Y and Z. Like buy a certain car or do this. You know, it can change what you do. But if you have that anchor point and you know your purpose and, and you know what your meaning is, I know that's fucking deep shit. But then it, you can kind of re. Anchor yourself back to that. And I think that's quite important.

Yeah, exactly. And so true. And like I see it so often and like again I keep saying like kids on Twitter and shit, but like that's where these people congregate, like younger people, like in the ecommerce space or whatever. And I just see so much of myself. And then there'll be like a 19 year old as someone I'm thinking of right now, like a 19 year old buying like a Cartier watch, like a diamond watch. And I'm thinking you haven't, you haven't been through it yet. So just fucking go through it, come out maybe when you're 24, 25 and realize that you don't, none of it matters.

But I think you need to go. Like you say, you look at that and you know there it's a mistake. But people need to go through that shit. You saying that isn't gonna change someone wanting that watch.

It's just funny because like, yeah, it's funny how your perspective changes as you get older. And probably more than just get older, get more experienced. Because it's time in the fucking game. I suppose that teaches you shit. Not necessarily just age. Right then, fellas, quick one. First official sponsor for the Midnight Pod Triple Whale. If you want to track your econ metrics properly, all your KPIs or your dashboards or your blended ROAS, all that good shit in an easy to understand dashboard as well as proper post iOS 14 pixel tracking. Know your real numbers because I didn't in the past and I got it very wrong. Nowhere to spend more money, nowhere to spend less money. All the shit that's gonna drive your brand forward. It's what I use every day in my new brands in the past brands. It's what all the guys on the pod running super successful businesses use as well. And it's what you should be using. Triplewhale.com Go click the link below, check it out and use my link. Support the fucking pod. Let's go boys.

Yeah, I think on that point it's interesting because it's almost. You could look at being devil's advocate, you could look at what's happening now with space goods and your vision for that. And you know, I've heard you say a few times about you want this mad 100 mil 9 figure, billion pound exit, which, you know, I'm sure you'll do. But what difference is, you know, the materialistic goal of that to, you know, the, when you're slightly younger, the materialistic goal of getting say an R8, like how, what, what feeling is that going to give you different to, you know, what this, what that gave you at a younger age, but just at a greater scale.

Yeah, like, I mean, yeah, I say these things. I spoke about this in a previous part that hasn't gone out yet. When you're younger, it starts with like, I guess the more obvious and what seems in hindsight like stupid things like literally a car, because that's the only. You haven't had. You haven't. There's no reference point yet. Like that's the thing you wanted when you were a kid. So you're like, I'll try and get that. And I need money to get that basically. And then I guess it becomes more about freedom and like, I just want to, you know, you need money for freedom and that's kind of a focus point. But yeah, I suppose, like, and I still want to build like a billion pound business even though I fucking been. I've been stressed just getting to like the 10 mil level. But it's not about like personal wealth as such. It's way more about just fucking impact and shit. Because I think that's what does and will fulfill me.

I think it's doing it as well with a brand that has meaning to you and is solving a problem for you and can solve a problem for other people.

Yeah, exactly. Like the shit I'm working on now is way more, I think it's way more impactful, is way more exciting than ultimately anything I did before.

Yeah, fact.

So.

And I think it's important, like it's a great point because even I've learned this from an econ brand I started. Like, if you don't build something that isn't solving a problem for yourself, you know, when you come to that first hurdle and you're not ultimately passionate about it because you can't get behind it to the same level as if it's solving a problem for you and it's product for you, then it's much harder to pass that next hurdle.

Yeah, 100% agree. So yeah, I guess we've kind of jumped into space goods. Did you want to.

Yeah, let's go back a little bit then.

So if we're doing it chronologically, we don't say it chronologically but yeah, let's go back.

Let's just go back slightly then because obviously we got to the point with Neon beach.

Yeah.

Where it was all going well.

Yeah, there's no point probably running over that whole story again because I guess this kind of 2020 from that point go and watch episode one I suppose but we can run over it, I.

Mean briefly but just a quick synopsis of like for someone who maybe hasn't heard episode one. Just very like fucking one minute.

Yeah, in one minute. So gets to the end of 2020. So the business did like just shy £10 million in revenue in 2020 from a fucking bedroom which is, well not a bedroom, a kitchen. But like that's actually mad if you think about it. And there were two like brands that, I mean granted one of them was like semi drop shipping but whatever. Still pretty fucking big scale for like a 24 year old in the kitchen. I didn't even think about that at the time. Didn't have any really advice around me. Etc, etc, etc. First point is I structured both the brand under the same company which was very expensive. Lesson number one. So then I went to sell Midnight City but long story short, I got greedy, didn't sell it and then later on couldn't sell it because basically fucking had a supplier go bankrupt, had scaled way too hard. Q4 comes around, we've got an ITV campaign on prime time television. So like business was doing like 1 1/2 million a month in sales. Long story short like 2 million quids worth of orders basically disappear. I've already paid for them, the supplier's having problems, everyone finds out that I'm the owner, the founder, so obviously all the buck is with the brand rather than the supplier. Even though they'd been paid up front. Long story, bad decision. Yeah, it basically became fucking hell very quickly when 2 million quids worth of orders got disappearing especially at 300 pound a. So yeah, combined with the business being like financially fucked pretty quickly, I also got like social media fucked for about six months. Pretty lethal combination. I don't personally know of any worse situation entrepreneurially that I've ever heard of. I mean I'm sure there are some but certainly for like a 24 year old guy at the time like that really, really pushed me to the fucking edge.

It's like a big Contrast from like fucking, like you said, feeling like you're on top of the world.

Oh, I felt like I didn't want to be in the world. Yeah.

To then that. How did you deal with that? Like switch up because that fucking didn't.

Very near didn't deal with it. Basically. I fucking hated my life for a long time and felt like fucking killing myself, to be honest. Like that is how bad it got. Like again, I spoke about this in episode one, whatever. But on reflection, even now, like yes, it was a bad time. Like I don't. I hope most people never have to go through anything remotely similar because some people on like Twitter and shit have said that I'm exaggerating how bad it was. I guarantee you I'm underplaying how bad it was in every single way in any content I put out. Because like, yeah, I mean obviously experiences are different for everyone. But yeah, it was fucking horrible to be honest.

One thing you didn't mention in episode one, that I would blur to be fair.

Because I think it was that painful that my mind has almost tried to erase it.

Well, I cuz I a tweet you actually put like really resonated with me and it's before I think I ever met you and I didn't really know who you were, but you kind of mention about fucking anxiety and depression and shit like that and this stuff I've gone through as well and I think a lot of entrepreneurs go through, but they don't actually talk about it. Like what did from your perspective, like how did you get over that? But you know, because obviously it was shit for a long time. But anyone going through that shit now, like what advice do you have like for getting out, coming out the other side?

Well, this is going into a whole other thing which can probably bring me on to like the new brand and shit. I spoke about this a bit in the episode with Iman, which is like the most viewed episode by fucking far. But yeah, so like there's probably no opportunity to speak about. I think in the interest of just being fucking Europe's most transparent man, I would say my entire life, regardless of Neon beach, whatever, probably mental health and dealing with issues there is probably the biggest challenge in my life from when I was 10 years old. So to give some context on that, like when I was 16, I used to feel depressed. Like which might sound fucking extreme, but I would tell my parents I wanted to kill myself when I was like 15, 16 years old. Which is not normal behavior. No. So there was something there. And then Fucking, I went to therapy and shit when I was like 16. And then it would come in waves. And I'll get onto the context why I'm saying this a minute. So then I also went through a period of that, like in. When I was like 19. So, like, I was on antidepressants for like six months. Wouldn't fucking recommend them, by the way. Which again, we can get on to why I'm fucking building this next brand in a second. And then. Yeah, I just. And by the way, like, I know fucking loads of people go through this shit. I think a lot of people downplay it. That, like, people that maybe are lucky enough then that's the right word to have. Never really. Like, if people think like, depression isn't real, then you're obviously lucky enough to never deal with it by definition. Otherwise why would you say it? Yeah. And if you have been through it, you wouldn't say it, so. And like, there's a billion different factors, of course, but I think certain. Certain people as a baseline are more biologically susceptible to mood swings and bad moods and shit. And I certainly am, like, even compared to my brother, twin brother, he's never really dealt with anything like that. But then obviously there's lifestyle factors, things that are going on. When I was in uni, I was probably really lost, you know, that put me in a bit of a hole. So then when I started making money and traveling and stuff, it probably kind of. It made things better because life was good. So, like, I wasn't as susceptible to like, feeling depressed or like having a downset. Exactly, yeah. So then when fucking, I sort of dealt ups and downs like everyone does. But then when fucking neon happened, that whole shit storm, I feel like it just unearthed like, like a more than a decade of, like, not really dealing with. Is there, like, more going on here? I don't know. Long story short, never spoke about this on the POD before, but I paid for a private psychiatrist like, six months ago. Again, it's probably gonna get fucking controversial comments and shit. He basically concluded that I'm type 2 bipolar. So now I actually take an antipsychotic medication which isn't an antidepressant. But, yeah, I basically went to, like, fucking. I spent loads of my own money going to a really fancy psychiatrist, basically saying that, look, the way I feel about the world sometimes is not normal. It's just not like, regardless of things going well or bad or whatever. And yeah, like, that was somewhat. That fucking answered a lot of questions for me. It kind of answered. It ticked A lot of boxes and was alright, whatever, like putting labels on things, I don't know, whatever. People have different opinions on that. I'm not. Doesn't have to define you or whatever. But like I was kind of glad for them to say like. And again, I don't even know how the fuck you like ultimately, you know, if someone answered the right questions on a test, could they also be bipolar? And they're not, I don't know. But yeah, like bipolar is a legitimate thing. Like Elon Musk I think is bipolar. Stephen Fry is famously bipolar. Like fucking go Google it. It basically just means you're very susceptible to very highs and very, very high ups and very low downs. Which has been the story of my life to be fair. Because yeah, there's been periods in my life where I'll fucking feel like I'm on top of the world. I'll go and spend a lot of money and do stupid shit. Like if you read the fucking symptoms of like bipolar, whatever, it's like classic shit like being a high risk cunt, which I would always call myself. But then periods of like literally feeling like want to kill myself but never doing it, but really thinking about it like a lot.

I think I feel like, yeah, so.

Yeah, that was a fucking bombshell. So I'm officially apparently whatever the fuck you want to call it, type 2 bipolar. Which means, yeah, I just have. I'm very susceptible to ups and downs but there are obviously ways to deal with it which gone to.

But regardless, like whether people fucking think.

Way too much information real or not.

Well, it's like, you know, commendable to fucking bring that up. So I didn't know that. But I think regardless of what people think on that like self or being self aware enough to know that there is something going on, you know, you can brand it or you don't have to. I think therapy is fucking great, personally. Like I've done it in the past and it was great for me when I was going through depression, like and I heavily recommend it. I mean we said before we started this, like this for you is a therapy. Especially now you're in the hot seat.

Yeah, it's fucking hot as well with this new light.

But what did. So then on that note then like during that time, what did that look like when you were coming out of that hole? Like how did you get there? Because people, people go through shit and there's.

Yeah, there's such star contrast like last year compared to 2020. So like. Yeah, the reason I was saying just giving Context on, like, firstly, whatever, bipolar or not. Like, for me it made a lot of sense. But I don't know, maybe it's helpful for me sharing that. I don't know, I'm fucking officially something wrong with me. Like, aren't we all? But that takes a lot of boxes for me. So, like, some people are more susceptible to ups and downs, what I'm saying. I'm definitely one of them. And entrepreneurship is probably partly caused to that, but certainly accentuated it because of the high highs and low lows. And I went from many years of ultimately, like, obviously there's ups and downs, but like fucking crushing life, in my opinion. Like, probably thought nothing could ever go wrong. And then when things went disgustingly wrong almost to like a, like a documentary level. Yeah, that put me in absolute hole. And like, looking back now, I probably cite two again. Like I called the first pod, like, I think sells my business to rock bottom. So I would cite there being like two key rock bottom moments last year, which are a bit different, and then I'll get on to how I fucking got them. But, like, the first one was when the business went to shit and I knew that I was fucking gonna have to basically disarm ownership of it to fucking put everything right and lose a business I'd built for fucking ages. I thought was gonna make, you know, fucking millions and millions from that was in like March 2021. Then after that kind of the dust settled, like, solved that problem, worked with the guys that bought me out for a while. And that was kind of a weird stage in my life as well, because it's a bit like, I don't want to be doing this, but I'm doing this for now because I have to. So that was pretty tough. The probably more like deep rock bottom point was actually just after I started the pod in like probably October of last year, because I'd officially decided I wasn't going to keep working with them. I sold the remainder of my shares, got a decent bit of cash out, to be fair. Wasn't like, can't fucking cry about it. But I mean, compared to what I thought I was going to make, I can cry about it, but it was the best of a shit situation. And that was when I spoke about I could have stayed, got a big salary, gone, work with these guys, whatever, to like probably 99.9% of society. That'd be the fucking dream at 25. But I was like, fuck that. I'd rather lock myself in a room again and figure out what's next. Which is kind of what happened. And then. Yeah, so at that point. And there's a video on my phone, by the way, which I'm planning on releasing when it's a year from that day. Because it was a video of me just speaking to camera, I think, like, October, maybe mid October, late October 2021. So I'd just broken up with the girlfriend, which, again, I'm not gonna speak about, but everyone fucking knows about that just happened. I was in this flat alone, and I was like, what the fuck am I doing next? I've got a load of experience, to be fair. Like, the thing I had most of and I still had money. Didn't have fucking millions and millions, but I had a lot of experience and a lot of connections. Can't put price. You can't put price on that. On either those things. Like, they're fucking invaluable. Like, I couldn't trade those for 20 million quid. Like, they're way more valuable in my opinion. Fact. So, yeah, and. And that was like. So bear in mind, I'm 25 at this point, been in the game like six years, and I'm thinking, what the am I doing next? Like, I don't. I felt like I didn't have anything to show for it, which isn't true because I had experience. I lived a wonderful. I'd still built shit. But, like, I thought, fuck, you know, I thought by now I'd be genuinely retired, which is a fucking other issue together, because you're never gonna retire. But, yeah, this is only like, what, seven, eight months ago now.

And so how long was that?

Like, I went back to the drawing board, so. And this was like pure fucking in my mind, like, the worst I'd ever felt about myself and my life. Because I think there's probably nothing harder to deal with than thinking you've made it and then have feeling like you've had almost all of it taken away from you. Yeah, like, that's fucked. That's way harder than just having never made it.

I think as well, like, to make it that even harder is like, the element of purpose. Like, when you don't have purpose at all. Anything to, like, attach your data to work on.

That's why it's like the podcast. Yeah. Because I was like, well, I knew.

I gave you attached to your next.

Yeah. So fucking. That's quite mad, really, because I've definitely pulled myself out of that hole. But how did I do it? I suppose the first thing was just knowing that I was basically either gonna fucking kill Myself or become a legendary entrepreneur. In my. In my head, that was like the two options. And maybe they weren't as black and white as that, but in a way that's kind of how I felt was like, I can either fucking give up or. And become a little bitch and probably just top myself or be close to it, or I can fucking go back to the drawing board and become like the fucking beast that I know I'm capable of becoming. And that's like a. You have to look yourself in the mirror and fucking decide. Mmm. Like, sounds flipping and shit. That's literally how I felt. And this isn't even that long ago. So, like, anyone that watches the POD and looks up to me and shit, I've probably been to a lower place than you. I mean, like, statistically, if anyone feels the same, like, you can change it. And then I felt like, you know, hopefully, and I believe it will. This will be one of the greatest ever, like, turnaround stories in a way. And granted there's probably much bigger scale ones, whatever, but. And I was like, I'm just gonna make it. It's gonna be a great story in five years time when, like, I bounced back like a phoenix. So, yeah, started working on the brand. Went back to the fucking drawing board. Well, I wasn't working on the brand at the time. I was working on what we're gonna do next. And I've kind of told the story a bit, but I was like, yeah, I want to do something that's. I guess mental health had probably had the biggest, like, painful impact on my life at that point. I was like, fuck, I don't want to feel this way. I dabbled in, like, psychedelics in the past and I probably was doing it a bit more then because I was like, fuck, I was more interested in it because, yeah, I know it helped me in the past and there's a lot of research going on. It's like microdosing and stuff. Like, fundamentally, before any fucking product, like, I decided I want to do something that can have a fucking impact because I want to feel better about helping people. Like, I guess the way it started is like, I want to help people that maybe have been through similar terrible periods in their life and certain things have helped them. So that's kind of where it started.

But, yeah, so, like, what did that. What did that process of, like, finding the next thing look like? Because it's. It's quite unique that being in a position where you, you know, you weren't doing anything else necessarily to then thinking what that next brand is because sometimes it's. That's the hardest time to think of that next idea when you're forcing yourself to.

Yeah, honestly like, it comes down to like that. I'm pretty confident you can lock me in a room and like give me some capital and resources, whatever. And like within like a few months I'll. I'll build like a multimillion pound brand in any industry. I truly believe I could do that. And I think that's quite an unusual skill set. And again, I'm not downplaying anyone else because most of my mates have done way bigger numbers in one space than me. But the one thing I'm definitely better at, I think, and credit myself for is I think I could do it in any space. I can. 0 to 1. I think I'm very, very good. Like probably better than most people, including people I know that have done bigger numbers than me. But like the idea to making something happen I think I'm very good at. It's the next bit I need to fucking get better at. Sticking out with something for like 10 years to build it to fucking 100 million plus, whatever. But yeah, I went back to the drawing board, did what I've done a billion times and fucking, you start brainstorming shit like. And I guess, yeah, it took, it took a while. I was like, well, I wanted. It started with a few logical things. I want to do some with high gross margin subscription, so consumable, you know, a few obvious things. I want it to be easy to post so I don't want to fucking do neon science again. Because I knew that had been a problem. And then beyond that, probably the biggest thing was I wanted to be in a potentially like world changing industry and something that has something that I believe, you know, is on the up, basically. Like, so it's effectively a trend, but even bigger than that, it's probably a movement. And then I was like, well, it's gonna be a supplement of some sort. And then I was like, well, wait a minute, I don't even know. It's always funny looking back because you can't recall what you thought at the time. Yeah. But I remember just thinking, wait a minute. I fucking. I've always been interested in like nootropics and psychedelics as well. And I was like, I think there's the perfect opportunity for me to build a brand that's like perfectly aligned, like icigai, like something you're good at, passionate about, can make money from, can have an impact from. I think it's like the things, all those things align. And then I was like, wait a minute, let's fucking build like a mushroom supplement brand with the long term view of building a consumer psychedelics wellness business. And I truly feel like that is probably what I've been put on fucking earth to do if you really have to get like deep about it. But I never felt that about jewelry or fucking neon signs. And it's a classic case of now I truly believe everything happened for a fucking reason. But maybe that's just my inner romantic making a beautiful story out of a very mundane situation. But that's a useful way to look at it and it's how I look at it now. And now I genuinely, hand on heart, I'm more excited about this and the other brands I've done in the past. I think it's infectious, the fact that.

You actually are passionate about it and it's, you're solving a problem for yourself. I think it genuinely, that is the key to like building a successful brand.

Yeah, yeah. So like ultimately like I said, like the whole, the bigger impactful vision is really I want to bring like microdosing and shit has helped me. Granted it's illegal, blah blah blah. So I've only ever done it in Amsterdam and then, you know, I've seen, I, I, I'm very aware of all the research going on. Like there's clearly a cultural change pending in that space. I, I believe psychedelics are the next cbd. And that's why I think this can be a billion pound brand. I really, really, really, really, really do. And if that never happens, by the way, if that renaissance never happens, legislation never changes, it can still be 100 million pound supplement business.

Yeah.

Because even then like, you know, like lion's mane, mushroom, all that sort of shit, I've noticed a massive trend with that. Like I was stacking a bunch of supplements basically in terms of like the actual product process. I can't swallow tablets, right? I cannot swallow tablets, that's the first thing. So I have this weird childhood trauma, don't know what it was. I think I choked on a paracetamol when I was seven or some bullshit. Can't swallow tablets. I was like, first I was stacking a bunch of supplements, that's the first thing. Secondly, all the supplements in kind of in this nootropics based mushrooms I was interested in were generally in tablet form, very like medicinal rather than luxury enjoyable, etc. And I was like, well let's put all these things, all these ingredients into one fucking product. That isn't a powder. What's the product, obviously, sorry, isn't a powder, Isn't a tablet. Put it into a powder because it's versatile. Knew nothing about how to fucking make this shit at this point. Very much was learning on the job. But again, that's like an attitude thing that I was like, fucking figure it out. Now. I know a shitload about nutrition and how to make products because when you do something, you fucking learn that. Funny thing because no one knows anything until you start. As I said, nothing exists until you fucking create it. Which is like a beautiful romantic slogan, but it's very, very, very true. And it was very true for me as well, because I was sat on nothing. And then that's the most beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is the alchemy of turning an idea. If I turning nothing into, then into an idea, then into a real thing, then into a business that can fucking serve and change people's lives.

Yeah, I think you're like the epitome of like just action. Fucking action on shit. It's such a. It's such a good point. You just mentioned there about you didn't fucking know anything about that space. You've got a lot of kind of experience in terms of, you know, business acremance and you know how to build, build brands, drop shipping, etc, etc, like Facebook ads. But you know, it's still kind of very much new territory to you. It's just that thing of just fucking getting in the deep end and learning.

Yeah. Again, I'm just really not sure if that's like genetic or what, but like.

I think you gotta fucking love the game.

I just like fucking making shit. It's all I exist for. And like, it's all. Not all I exist for, but like, I couldn't breathe if I wasn't building my own shit.

So what did the like, creative process look like with space goods? Because I think it's obviously a very visual product. I mean, like, with us, we do a lot of branding. There's this thing called like system one versus system two thinking.

I don't know if you've heard, no idea what the fuck that is, but.

Like, you've naturally done that. So like, basically it's two different parts of your brain. System one is your. You kind of make rapid, quick decisions. And 80% of our decisions are made through system one. System two is like slower, more logical decision decisions, but system one is more emotional. So products and brands want to be more system one focused because you want to just dive straight into fucking making that decision. And through the branding, you've done that because you're breeding familiarity with something that's very different and very out there. And it's very unique in terms of the branding that you've done. What did that design process look? So I don't think that's something you've.

Spoke about much, honestly. Again, I don't even know. But I have to say, I think it's my best piece of branding work I've ever done. I think. I think the brand is fucking good. Like, if I do. And again, fucking arrogant. Whatever. I just. It is good, like, but it's good because I've spent years trying shit and being shit and then average and then quite good, and then. Okay, I think it's probably. I think it's one of the coolest new brands I've ever seen. And like. And again, that might sound terribly arrogant because it's my thing, but I just do, like, I think something just clicked for me in terms of the whole space, the product, the aesthetic. I suppose, to answer the question, like, I don't know, like, I'm a pretty good designer. Like, often I don't really speak about that. Like, that's what I was good at initially. Like, you call yourself a designer, don't you? I do now because I try to change the personal brand. I used to say E. Comm. Entrepreneur. Designer. Entrepreneur. But, like, yeah, fucking the whole. Yeah. I mean, what was the process? I guess it starts with literally, like a Pinterest board, the whole pink thing. So I'd always been into pink. Like, these posters that I did years and years ago was gonna be a canvas brand called Neon beach, which became Neon beach, which became obviously fucking started, like, pink lights, pink logo. I've always liked pink. I actually think it works really well as well. Like, because it's pretty, like, what's the word? Like, gender neutral. Like, it appears to both genders, like, even though it's probably historically a bit more feminine. But, yeah, I just liked pink. And that was like, it almost felt like full circle, like, bringing the pink back. The whole, like, 80s campaign thing I did was kind of just because I've always loved that aesthetic, tried to kind of play on it a bit more like neon signs. I think it worked better in this case. And that video was fucking genius, by the way. Brad guy that I work with, fucking wizard on that shit, brought. Brought my crazy vision to life perfectly. But, yeah, the process is just ideas. Like, you have to have ability and ideas to start with. And then especially when you're literally Producing like people message me like, who make. Who designed the packaging? I did everything, you see, I designed basically. Well, not basically literally, like I didn't do the products, photography of the website and shit. Like obviously photographers did that. But in terms of the brand, the product, what it looks like, the whole aesthetic was all me. And yeah, it's kind of cool to do that because then when you start scaling the business aspects, when you start getting sales and shit, which we obviously are now doing, it's like it's more. That in itself is more fulfilling. It's like I actually made that from scratch rather than just like. Granted with like drop shipping, you're not making anything, you're just fucking trying to make money. Like with Midnight City. I mean, granted I was technically making my own designs, but it's kind of just the same as everyone else. It's kind of. It's effectively white labeling a product. Like everyone does a fucking Figaro chain, whatever. Then with Neon beach obviously did the branding and shit, but ultimately it's just an LED neon sign that anyone else can sell. Whereas this is entirely 1 million percent bespoke from scratch. So that product does not exist anywhere else. The whole formula is bespoke, the dosages are bespoke. Granted, there's similar stuff and I expect probably someone will fucking rip the shit out of it in the next few months. But yeah, that's the cool thing about entrepreneurship. When granted you need a bit of money and fucking not know how to even start. But in like this sort of thing. But you can literally make something from scratch. Yeah. And deliver it to thousands of people that you don't know. That's the beautiful thing about especially like the early stages of anything.

What I find mad about and it's something I thought about a few times. I'd like to ask you about like retail as well and what your thoughts are there. Because I can't fucking imagine that product on like the shelves of Boots or like fucking Holland and Barrett like that.

It definitely won't be in either of those.

I mean it would just stand out. So what you do see it going into retail or.

Yeah, I mean it's such. Is very unique aesthetic, like aesthetically unique products maybe. I think if it's going to be retail, it'd be like Whole Foods, Selfridges, that sort of shit. I wouldn't even go like Waitrose. I think I'm trying to be too like premium cool, unique with it, so. But yeah, I mean, I have no idea about that sort of shit. Fucking Jimmy from Hair Burst we speak a lot about the sort of shit. He knows a lot about that maybe. Certainly not for like the next year or so.

So how much now, obviously you've started, you're well in the trenches. How much do you plan ahead? Because, you know, for me anyway, when I'm setting goals, two months down the line, shit changes and you're like, you know, things change all the time and you're reassessing you, you know, the goal post change, etc. Are you setting goals for the brand? Like, do you have like a roadmap there or.

Yeah, so the one thing I was very historically not that good at is, like, organization. Like, Ollie used to take the piss out of me. Ollie from Saw with us, for everyone watching who's on episode 22, whatever, who's now an investor in the brand as well, by the way. Again, like, full circle. Yeah. Oh, and your business about it.

Yeah.

Shit, I forget you where it's going now. Yeah, he always used to take the piss at me because I'm, like, not organized, like, really shit at hiring and shit. I'm probably more of like a. I guess more of like a creative than an operator, you could say. But I obviously do have like the foundational principles of, like, I understand the piano when shit's going well, I understand fucking supply chain, you know, to an extent, to a good enough extent. I'm not retarded. Like, it's not like I'm literally designing logos and can't do the other shit. I'm good at a lot of stuff, but I'm not excellent a lot of stuff. And you need to be excellent. You need to have at least try and be excellent. Everything to fucking run a good business or at least get people in the art. So now with this, after, like, having a while to think about it, obviously, because everything happened and fucking like a year out of the game, I was like, well, firstly, I'm not gonna do it myself, which is why I raised a bunch of funding to fucking get. Get those brains involved, which is already paying massive dividends. Like, massively. But then, yeah, also in my own sense, I was like, well, I need to plan my shit a bit more this time around, rather than just like, you know, like with Neon beach, for example, I would just put another fucking zero on the Instagram ad budget because it was working. Whereas now it's like, I could. I could probably scale. I mean, certainly over the next few months, I could probably scale quicker than I'm planning to, but I'm trying to be a bit more planned and like, I guess this is, this just comes from maturity. It's like I don't want to do 10 million in the first year. Even though I think we probably could. If I had the stock and cash flow. I don't want to do 10 mil because I know that that's probably not sustainable in terms of like. Well I say if I had the stock and cash flow, I probably couldn't have the cash flow to scale it that quick without something going wrong is what I'm saying. So now it's like way more measured. For the first time in my life I'm actually saying like monthly goals and shit. My Google Drive is organized. I've got like KPIs and shit. I send out a monthly update to my investors because I'm fucking very on top of that shit because I've invested in businesses and they've not communicated with me at all. So like even today the May update went out with all the KPIs, all the fucking updates.

Nice.

All the goals for next month, etc. So it's a lot more organized. I think I'm becoming a better operator than I was. Like the biggest single shift in that is realizing that A, I can't do it all myself, I don't want to do it all myself and C, I'd be fucking retarded to even try because there are people that so much better than me. Probably most areas of the business.

Yeah fact like literally fucking being a good operator and a good leader is. Stephen Bartlett said it's like being a recruiter, you're fucking hiring people. It's been self aware enough to know what you're best at, what, what other people could be better at and your weaknesses are. And then hiring someone that's better at you at that thing.

Yeah. And knowing no, you're working on it. But what the fuck is this? Space goods spacegoods.com Rainbow Dust version 1. My newest entrepreneurial econ brand venture. I spent six months in the trenches building this shit from scratch. We launched six weeks ago. What's it all about? The next generation wellness brand with a long term vision to essentially consumerize the pending psychedelic consumer goods market. Which might sound absolutely ridiculous, we're not quite there yet. The market's massively illegal. But what is this? Rainbow dust version 1 is an all in one mushroom and adaptogenic blend designed to unlock your supernatural self. Essentially experience a sharper focus, sustained energy, zen like calm throughout the day. It's an all in one powder. Tastes like fucking hot chocolate, tastes delicious, works great, looks Great. Feels amazing. Essentially the broader concept here was to legally imitate a psychedelic microdose and like I said, experience those symptoms. You can mix it with anything. Brownies, bake brownies with it, mix it with your coffee, have it without coffee, replace your coffee, put it into a protein shake. It's super fucking versatile, it tastes great. It replaced the stack of supplements I was previously taking. But you need to try this shit. It would definitely change the way you work, get you into that deep workflow. I obviously think that myself plenty of thousand plus first customers think the exact same shit. It's not just a pretty packaging, it actually works really fucking well. Keto, vegan, all that good shit. Trust me, you need to try it for yourself. Let's scale this shit to the moon. Spacegoods.com get on your rainbutta subscription and see how you fucking feel. Let's do it for the boys. Spacegoods.com.

You've recognized you're self aware enough. You've mentioned this before that you've recognized with even like your past businesses that you've struggled to delegate. And that's obviously a really important thing as a business owner. How are you like planning to deal with that, with this new business in terms of like hiring, you know, managing? What are you doing differently?

You know, I honestly think the hardest thing and again I spoke with other founders about this is knowing where the line is between like delegating but also just fucking hustling and doing shit yourself because you're a startup. Like you're not gonna hire your know, 20 people on a payroll when you're in your first month no matter how much fucking funding or experience you have. So yeah, I think the thing, the answer to that at least in my head and again having like super experienced investors and like mentors now, which is like not lucky to have but it's the result of years in the game and doing certain shit and networking and stuff. I'm very fortunate to have that it makes such a big difference because now basically getting advice on when and who to hire for what shit. So for example one thing I'm in the process of hiring some hiring a part time FD right now. So effectively like one day a month, you know, paying a day rate of like two round whereas to just like a like be massively like so you've got an accountant like management accounts or standard ship or have that anyway. But like this is more because basically I never used to have like budgets and it would just be like, you know, I feel like there's Always a difference between like founder accounting and actual accounting. It's like what you think you're making is no more you're making. And then even if you are making a lot of money, you're not accounting for cash flow. You maybe you've missed about liability and all this sort of shit. So like, because profit doesn't necessarily mean you're in a good position because like you said, cash flow, stockholdering, etc. Etc. Particularly in like E Com when you're buying stock and then also prepping the business up for. And this comes down to like the whole strategic narrative and kind of shit I spoke about before, but prepping the business effectively from day one to have the actual viability to sell for 100 million quid plus, which has always been the plan, but kind of work backwards from that. And it's only because I've got experience in the game and I've had years doing stuff and speaking to people that I even think that way because yeah, I never thought that with previous businesses. Whereas now it's like, even shit, like there's so many nuggets I could go into this. But I go watch, go and watch the Alex Packham episode, who's one of my investors by the way, super smart guy, sold his business to Adobe for a fuckload of money.

Content cow.

Yeah. So like these are people that have actually done it. Like they're not some fucking, you know, dropshipper that's flexing or whatever. Like they've actually made like big fat, fat fuck you money. Do. I mean, and it's very different to the mindset is very different. So like one specific thing that he said to me is like consistent growth, even if the numbers are smaller, is more attractive than bigger numbers. But actually you stalled the growth because you went too quick and now you're scaling down for a quarter and you know, that sort of shit. I never used to think like that. So for example, hypothetically speaking, I would rather do, you know, 100 grand this month, 150 next month, 175 the month after, 200 the month after 220 the next month, rather than being like, oh, I've done 100 grand this month, let's try and do 300 next month and then let's try and do 750 the month after.

That allows you to hypothesize as well. And obviously you've been doing that a lot in terms of like feedback and things like that. You can adjust, you can, you know, you can relay the foundations necessary to then Scale to the next stage. I think that's really important because you may go to like A to fucking Z before A to B, when really there's things that need to be changed at A or B. Yeah, you get there.

Exactly. So one of the I feel like gems I dropped on, I think it was Fraser's pod that I mentioned before. The ultimate I learned the hard way was don't just scale because you can like scale because it makes sense. So what I mean by that is that people will see and I was the exact same. Oh, we're getting a roas on fucking Instagram ads. Let's just 10x the budget will 10x the revenue. Right? And especially when it's like a drop shipping model, a hybrid dropshipping model. But that's not always the right thing to do because you may not have factored in like, oh, but that means your fucking customer service requirements five times as much. You haven't got the team. Like your cash flow requirement is then bigger than before and actually you're going to run out of money in a month if you order stock and you have a fucking 10 week lead time and you don't have enough credit. You know, all this sort of shit which comes with experience. So that's now why I'm in the process of completely with his help. He's basically doing it for me. Yeah, Hiring a part time fd. So like, and again, I'm very transparent with these guys. Like I was on a call with two of them last week and like, I just say, look, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing with this side of shit, but I know how to scale things and I know how to brand stuff, I know how to sell product. But I need someone that just makes sure I'm on the straight and narrow, not about to get fucked in the ass again like I did before.

Mate, that is actually the thing in like the businesses I've built that I've. That's always worried me. I feel like with, with a business before you hire people and delegate, you need to know how to do everything to a certain level. So you know if the person that you're bringing on, if they're doing a good job or not. Yeah, the one thing that I, I've always found difficult is with accounting. A lot of it's fucking, I still haven't got a clue about and it goes straight over my head. You know, there's basic shit, you know, that we all know, but that's the one area of business that I think you could be a shit accountant and the business owner wouldn't have a clue if you're doing a good. If they're doing a good job or not.

Agreed. I think that's, that's why it's so important to. For shit like that and genuinely as well, but certainly for like mission critical shit like that, which again, is stuff no one's speaking about on YouTube. It's all about fucking ad spend, ad spend, ad spend. The shit that will kill you is running out of money. Simple as that. I learned that the very hard way. It's very unglamorous, it's very boring, it's not cool. There's no fucking Lambos. Everyone talks about marketing, not even product, by the way, which we kind of touched on the last episode that went out with the Purdy and Fig guys. No one's talking about products. They're all talking about. And I say no one. I mean like the DC community, broadly online, certainly the people that make the most noise, you know, YouTube, Twitter, all that, they're all talking about marketing, spend, markings, bend. No one talks about product.

It's revenue. It's not even less.

So, yeah, no one fucking talks about, you know, the cash flow implications of scaling something. And these are all more like things that you become more aware of with experience, ultimately. And like, you can tell someone has no experience or they're like capping, as people say these days, basically full of shit, when all they're talking about is like marketing, because it just proves they've never got any actual experience because they haven't run into the issues that these other things can produce. Or certainly they're just lying about them because they want to sell a membership to their discord, whoever is.

I think it's that Twitter culture that's being built, like where people just fucking screenshotting shopify revenue figures when realistically they're not make. They're making up 1.5% net profit.

What does that mean? Losing money.

What is your revenue figures? And, you know, triple wells helped with that to an extent because you can more accurately look at your figures. But it's, it's. I think that culture on Twitter is quite toxic.

There's something called. Is it called. Someone's going to correct me in the comments? You know, I mean, there's like a curve, I think it's called like the Dennis Kruger curve or some bullshit. I don't know if it's called that. It basically means when you. There's like a curve where you go from knowing nothing to thinking you know everything to then actually when you know way more, you realize you know nothing. So I'm at that stage now where I realize I know fucking nothing. And I actually think it makes me, makes me a lot better for a start. But it's just interesting how you have to go through that. By definition, you have to go through the period of thinking that like stereotypical, like arrogant fucking make your first bit of money online. There's nothing wrong with that. I think everyone should go through that. I certainly did.

I think what you've done really well just on this point and it's so important because people that are really egotistical surround themselves with people that are small fish compared to them. Like if you went back to York now, you know, you'd be the big.

Fish at the weekend.

Yeah, yeah, like you'd be the big fish. And you know, it might, it might be a bit of an ego stroke, but realistically that's not going to kind of grow or fulfill you. I think it's so important to surround yourself by bigger fish than you and you be. You want to be a small fish in a big pond.

I actually think, and again with. Many guests have mentioned this and it's so true and I've agreed with this on other pods. I think it's the single most important thing literally in life is who you hang around with and who you surround yourself with. But like a caveat to that is. And I just want to say this, like clip this from the pod, Brad, or whatever. But the most successful people I know are also the least arrogant, the most genuinely nice and the most authentic people. The people that fucking, you know, and I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, but you get some people that just think their dog's bollocks. They've actually had no success, but they're fucking fronting like majorly. Like the classic guru type that say nothing has ever gone wrong, tell everyone that everything's perfect and they're a cunt. The most successful people in the world, like, well, certainly that I know are just like I said, genuinely nice people and just very authentic because they're fulfilled.

I think like if you're trying to.

Prove something and not at least all the people I hang around with or what look up to are that, you know, there's never any excuse to be like just a cunt. And there's a lot of comes from.

A deep rooted insecurity. If you're trying to fucking prove something, it's because you're insecure yourself. Those people you hang around with are fulfilled and they fucking, they don't need to do that shit. It's like you normally find that the billionaires are the ones rocking about in shorts and a baggy t shirt.

100% so true. Like, yeah. I mean, just look at some of the yes I've had on the pod. Like I keep saying, like, like 0.001%, like financially successful, but they're like the nicest people ever. Yeah. Granted, like, not everyone has access to people like that because again, like you have to kind of do stuff and build that network over time and stuff. But again, it's very intentional, like you're saying. Yeah, I've always very intentionally put myself in positions where I feel like the fucking, you know, the broke loser. Like, that's one way of putting it. But like the small fish. Yeah. Like half my half my close mates have been on the pod have made more money than me. But that's great because otherwise I would think I would fucking made it. And like, yeah, I still think I'm gonna outdo them in like two, three years.

But that's, but it's that. It's that competition that you need and.

It'S a healthy competition trying to jump.

Jump wire to people. Otherwise you'll fucking get comfortable, which is dangerous.

And it's a healthy competition, but it's also like a support network. Like, you know, I spent like two and a half years living with Fred, who's one of my best mates and fucking wildly successful for his age. Probably like one of the most in the fucking country, to be honest. And other people like Adam, who's been on the pod, slightly older than me, but we, we shared an office in fucking Leeds for like a few months. And he was one of the first people I ever spoke to in the fucking space. And he's gone on and done mad things. And like Jack, who I now live with, is fucking scaling the shit out of his brand.

What's your advice then for like, people who like, are in that position where they're just thinking, how the fuck can I find those people?

Because again, that is literally the most common question I get in dms must be. And every single fucking time I've stopped replying to a lot of DMS at this point because do shit. Finally get to the point where actually just get too many. And. And I'd never thought we'd get to that point because I do not consider myself fucking public figure or any of that bullshit, but I guess it's such a, like a committed audience. So I appreciate all the messages. But I guess to answer that question, the first thing is no one fucking grows up with a bunch of entrepreneurs. So, like, recognize that it's normal. I certainly didn't. No one else I know did. Really. The next point is you have to just be uncomfortable and put yourself out there. Like I said, I flew to Singapore. Like, that's not an exaggeration. I flew to Singapore by myself on an economy ticket. I fucking went to an event. Do you know how scary that is when you're like 21? Anyone be shitting themselves? But you have to do that. And I think probably the most important thing after that is you ultimately have to do something. And when you start doing things and being known for, oh, you built that. Or, you know, you're doing this, that's cool. That's when you can get in certain conversations and you build that credibility and that respect and. And then also when you get into certain rooms and I guess there's like anything like this kind of levels to it. Like, you generally will gravitate and hang around with people who are on a similar in. In your, you know, doing similar numbers, whatever it is, been in the game a similar amount of time. Like, I'm not hanging around, hanging around with, I don't know, owners of Premier league football clubs, am I? Because they're like billionaire level. Not that I have to get to that level, but, you know, you'll genuinely find yourself with people that are doing similar.

Yeah, like when you met Fred, he wasn't at the level he's at now.

Like, you were doing. Like, we're doing like the same. Exactly, exactly. That. That's the most important thing, finding people and growing together, rather than just trying to join the conversation later on. Because that's something that kind of pisses me off. Like I get people that message me from, like my past or whatever. Suddenly they want to be my best mate. Probably less so now. It probably used to happen more when I was like flexing carbs and shit, but it's like you weren't fucking interested in speaking to me when I was 19 years old and fucking couldn't sell a T shirt online. Suddenly now you fucking want money and advice. Think.

I think as well, Like a big thing that people, like, don't talk about is I just don't be a stiff cunt light.

Ah, so true, mate. Like, don't be a virgin.

People think that, like networking is that this thing where you have to go with like this business mindset, like you're in an interview or something, just Fucking be yourself. And like the best networking I've ever.

Done was getting pissed with people in foreign countries.

Strategic sender.

Yeah. Honestly though, like. And it's, I never even thought about it. It was just natural. Like just be your fucking self. And it's so obvious when you, when you're putting something on. It's painfully obvious. Like I'll get voice notes off Don's that watch the pod that like pitch into like. And I fucking. Yeah, it's great. I appreciate the message, whatever. But they're like pitching to work for, I don't know, the pod or something and it. And they're on about like, I don't know, it's just fake. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, fucking. Oh, like big words and shit. So just speak how you fucking speak, mate. No one cares. I don't know. But yeah, basically just be yourself and be real.

And I don't think, and I think don't have like an ulterior motive. Like genuinely try and build real relationships.

Yeah, exactly, because. And also real relationships are built like when you're not just talking about like business and which is why. Which is what I think a lot of people miss. They'll go to like, I don't know, eventually and I don't even know what events people are going to but like, you know, they'll think of like networking. Like you said, it's like this kind.

Of professional endeavor, like dick swinging contest.

Yeah, like just fucking go and speak to people. Like, you wouldn't go on a date with a girl and fucking have a script of questions. Although I know certain people have actually fucking done that and they wouldn't have very good with girls. Just go and be yourself. Like let the com. Let whatever happens happens and let it flow. And yeah, having this most important thing.

So question I wanted to get on to because it's something that I've like, I had this big goal for a while of like, you know, little, little time ago now of that 7 figure run rate was like that big goal for me and I always had that for like a few years. And then when I hit that, it's this thing called gold medal syndrome where you, you hit, you know, gold medal. It's like it's known thing that Olympians, they hit that gold medal that they've been working their whole life for. And it's this empty feeling. And again people say that about exiting a company as well. It's this, this empty feeling. And I know certain people go to the extent of saying they feel depressed because they lose their purpose, etc. Maybe a bit too, too far fetched if you know you're getting a huge fucking multi nine figure exit.

Yeah, I'd rather feel empty in a con, empty on the streets.

What are your thoughts there? Because you talk about this huge exit. Like, do you, do you think that really the exit is, is the goal? Do you think the journey to that exit is the goal? And are you worried about getting that gold medal syndrome?

Yeah. So many points. I think I've been grossly misunderstood by my own parents in this respect and probably, probably people that don't understand like the mind of true entrepreneurs a bit in the sense that like I've always spoken about, ever since I was like 12 years old, wanted to do like big things, whatever that is. And I, I guess now it's, you know, a big thing would be building a fucking hundred million pound revenue business, maybe a billion pound valuation business. Whatever. The reason I want to build something big is because if it's bigger then it's impacting more people just by default. And if it's impacting more people, it's worth more by default, you know, basically. And you know, easy example, obviously like someone like Jeff Bezos has ultimately impacted more people's fucking lives than probably anyone else. Like on a, I don't know, you know, a product, monetary perspective. He's made more millionaires than anyone else, probably through fba, all that sort of stuff. And as a result he's fucking richest man in the world or Elon Musk is, but he's one of the richest men in the world, right. I don't think he ever went out to try and make $200 billion. Went out to try and solve a problem which was fucking selling shit online and obviously did it very well. I would just rather try and go again. Some people just not just have different views on this like guy I had on previous episode, or maybe it hasn't come out by now, but he runs a clothing brand and he was very clear, like he's quite older than me and his view was I don't want to build like you know, 100 million pound revenue. I just don't. And that's cool. I fucking respect that more than people that lie about it. But for me I just think I just have this gut feeling that I want to do something big and if it's bigger it impacts more people and ultimately I could fucking potentially make it a load more money from it. But it really isn't about that. Like the money for me was always just I want to be able to do what I want, when I want, with who I want, how I want. So to do that you need fucking a lot of money. So millions and millions really because you know, you can invest it and never have to work again. But I've never had any doubt in my mind that I'll get like I'll reach that point, whatever that is, fucking 30, 50, 100 million quid in net worth. Like even when I was fucking everything was going wrong. It's never crossed my mind that wouldn't happen because I know I'm capable of it. But like it comes from a place that I want to have, I genuinely want to have a positive impact. And again, it sounds all grandiosy and shit, but that actually is what drives me way more probably particularly because I've had a taste of like that millionaire lifestyle. So it's when I have us fucking driving like Ferrari, living in a penthouse, like that shit ain't cheap. And like, yeah, I've had a taste of that. And granted there's obviously levels to it. Fucking I wasn't flying private jets. But I think that little, you know, the taste of that over the years like does make you realize that you probably put two and two together and think, alright, so this is what I'm doing with this much money, you know, if I fucking got 100 million quid exit, what's the difference? So that's why now I wanted to focus on something that actually was like, firstly like creatively interesting, like, like passionate about it from like a creative standpoint. So like if I never got paid from it, but I still want to work on it. Yeah, probably hypothetically, but then also somewhat that can, you know, an industry and a product, that sort of product that can, you know, have an impact to people's mental health, et cetera, et cetera. So it genuinely is beyond just the fucking monetary point is what I'm saying. So that's kind of the first thing just to clarify because I think a lot of people got me wrong in the past and thought it was some materialistic cunt, but I'm actually not just like cuddling my dog and fucking wearing pink shit. Like it's very, it's much more honest and pure than probably what maybe some people thought of me when I was younger. But that's the first thing. But yeah, the whole gold medal syndrome thing, I completely understand that to an extent because again, there's obviously levels to it. But maybe when I, for me, like the goal posts were like get my first car, which Was, you know, relative to doing a few million in revenue or whatever it was at the time. Then I reached, I guess got to like 8 figure run rate point at 1 in 2020 and that was kind of mad. But like then the goal posts move again and it's like, you know, this see a certain amount of money in the bank account for the first time and then suddenly fucking don't care anymore because the goalposts have moved again. So yeah, and obviously there's levels to it. I genuinely feel like I've done absolutely nothing with my business career at all. But I guess for like a young person, I have. So do you know, I mean it's, I think as well, it's enough answered that question.

Yeah, I think it fucking comes back to as well. Just. And you mentioned that before, that brand owner. It's true. I think a lot of people come into the space and they see, you know, they see a lot of people making these fucking huge eight nine figure X's.

But.

And people as a result think, oh, I want that, I want that. But realistically, you know, someone that's doing a couple of hundred grand a year might actually be happier than someone that's doing probably are, you know, not eight, nine figures a year because realistically is going to be a less stressful business, more of a lifestyle business at that level and it may be more suited to you. So I genuinely think like the big thing is just fucking know what makes you happy and don't just do something because of the monetary value of it. Because a lot of people are way happier at those slightly lower levels. I fucking found this now like, to be honest, building a team that every new employee that we bring into my business, it gets fucking more and more stressful and it's just one of those things of like realigning of what actually your makes you happy. You know, the goal, the goal is important. You know what, what that goal is. But at the same time I think you need to reassess like consistently. Is this making me happy? Like because that's at the end of the day, like that's what being a business owner is. You're doing something so you get that freedom. And if you're scaling a business to a point where you're losing that freedom, then it could be a different story.

Yeah, I completely agree. Do you know what's interesting? Because even after I fucked up with our neon beach and had that real taste of like the dirt, it made me want to like go even bigger with the next one because I was like and that's probably chip on your shoulder, partly that. But then it's almost like I felt like, almost like discovered, like, what I felt like could be like my life's purpose and shit. And broadly speaking, maybe that is to, like, have a positive impact on the mental health of entrepreneurs and creatives and people that view the world like me and probably creatives is a better way to put it, because that's broader and, you know, like, even if that's just what I've come up with in my fucking dreams, and it probably is, but, like, when you actually feel like you fucking finally on a. Like, stuff kind of makes sense that you know what you want to work on, you know what you feel like your purpose is, at least. Because I think there's a difference between being happy and being fulfilled. And I don't necessarily think you have to feel happy all the time, but I think feeling like you have a purpose and being content with the journey is a very good place to be. And I feel like the first time probably ever, I feel like I'm starting to get there. Like, the combination of the way I'm living, the people I'm around, the shit I'm working on, even just doing the podcast like, that adds an element of fulfillment because I feel like I'm. Well, it's just enjoyable to share my journey because that. The inner movie director in me, like you were saying before, comes out and in 10 years time, be great to watch back. And then I get messages saying it's changed people's lives and. Which might sound flippant, but if it has, it has, and that's great.

How does that make you feel?

Like what I think of what I'm doing is obviously what I actually am doing. Because, like, I think what. Yeah, I think what I'm doing is always come. Like, even the brands I've built is probably actually the most painful thing about the whole Neon beach situation, by the way, was I was labeled as like some fucking fraudster trying to make money. Whereas everything I've ever done has come from a place of genuine intention and authenticity and just trying to be a fucking creative cunt. That I guess makes cool shit and inspires other people to do cool shit. That's been my entire personal identity since I was like 10 years old, at least in the back of my mind. And I don't fucking get it right all the time, but I'm certainly not a fucking scam artist. And obviously that's all been cleared up now. But that's probably the hardest part about that, yeah, people getting you wrong and shit. What was the question? Where was I going with that?

So, yeah, I think you answered it. But just moving on, then what is. You get that exit? What's next? Like, genuinely, I know it's hard to visualize these things. I don't know if you're into visualization or that kind of shit, but what. What is next? Because I. And again, obviously I'm good mates with Conor, who's on this podcast. I know you both spoke about this and I spoke about this with Conor as well. He doesn't ever, you know, Tev, his. His perfume brand is obviously doing mad numbers and he wouldn't ever want to an exit because he's, you know, he feels like he would always want to scratch that itch and he would just look for the next thing and invest into the next thing. When, you know, he has no confirmation that the next thing's gonna work like this. What are you, you know, do you see that as the end? You see yourself, you know, the cliche of retiring on the beach, or do you. Do you feel like, again, the same thing's gonna happen where you're gonna need that purpose? Similar situation to after Neon beach, but obviously a very different.

Yeah, I mean, if. Yeah, like obviously changes so much, but, like, if I had to like write out what I think what my rough plan probably is, and again, these things change. You know, build this brand for the next four or five years, sell it, make 50 to 100 million quid, then probably get out of the trenches a little bit, maybe start a charity or some shit, start investing in businesses in the psychedelic space, end up building a group, and by the time I'm 40, I built a 10 billion pound fucking public company. We float that and become like the next Elon Musk or some shit, with a focus on the mental wellness space and the emerging psychedelic wellness space. So, like, that's probably maybe how I see it going if I was to write the script, but obviously I'd always do the next thing, like know even shit like starting a podcast. Fucking. You don't make any money from a podcast anytime soon. Like, certainly not in the first few months when I started it. And I started this because it was another creative endeavor when it, like while I was pending the next brand and now, you know, I guess like another project. I've kind of started my own personal side as I've started, gotten into. Got into running a lot recently and now become a bit of a weapon with that. And I found real solace in that because that has become like a meditation on I never knew existed because I was never into it when I was younger. I was always. I did rowing for years, like I said. Then I got. I found myself getting a bit like flat. Not I wasn't fat, but like compared to what I am now, like I'm fucking in great shape right now. Like physically, probably mentally better than I have been for a while. And there's always an X project is what I'm saying. And like for me, like fitness, the podcast and the brand right now are kind of my three things that the brand is number one for sure. That's like the bread and butter. But yeah, I think it's important to have. I think it's important to have projects. But do you know, I don't understand people that can go through life not building anything.

I think it's really sad what in terms of just a normal person that just works a nine to five, not just.

Yeah, I mean I understand it because I know that everyone's different, but I can't relate to it. And I'm not saying like a business, but even just I don't. Okay, I certainly can't relate to it. Probably anyone watching this podcast can't relate to it, but I don't actually get how someone can like just work a job that they don't necessarily like, which is unfortunately a lot of people, but then also not even have like a personal project outside of that. Well, I think being to be. Get fit or something.

Well, I think you're blinded.

How are they satisfied?

But when you're in this game, I think you're so in the game and you're so blinded by the passion of being in the game that you. It's hard to actually understand from outside people how fucking hard it is what we're doing and like being how high pressured it really is.

Like, you know, I just mean like even shit like wanting to get in like shape, like having some. Like for me, like the human condition is to fucking improve yourself. But that's what life's all about.

Feeds into every part, the whole.

The slogan of this pod is the creative issue of a greater self. Which sounds fucking gay or whatever and like cringe and. But I truly believe that's what life's all about. At least, at least in my perspective. Like just the journey of fucking bettering yourself and along the way finding what ma. Finding out what matters to you and fucking dying for it.

Seems like that was a big part for you, like for your mental health, the fitness side and you becoming More passionate about that. You're almost aligned and synchronized with, you know, everything with space. Space goods.

Oh, massively. I honestly think, because I know you asked that earlier, I probably didn't answer it. If you're in a bad mental space, and I've been there, and I probably will be again, but, like, you know, hopefully not to the same extent. I think the most powerful thing you can do that's free, just fucking exercise and gain great shape, particularly running routine. Yeah, don't drink alcohol. This is not. I mean, certain wine, but that doesn't help.

Red wine's supposed to be good for you before.

Yeah, red wine doesn't help you in a bad place. But, yeah, I'd always gone to the gym. I always had a decent routine. I guess I lost my routine to an extent when I wasn't working on stuff. So that kind of left a lot of empty space in my head. Too much time to think. And I think a fucking lot. Way too much. But yeah, I think, like, running and just, you know, read David Goggins book Can't Hurt Me, I think that was the most powerful book I've ever read. And that's what kind of kickstarted me getting into running again. And I just. I just related to it on, like, a spiritual level just for, like.

Just for people watching. Then three biggest takeaways from that book that, you know, helped your trajectory.

Probably the first thing is just the first thing, I think knowing that you can change, like, you can change a shit situation. And as unhelpful as it is to think about it, there's probably always someone that's been in a worse situation, including me. There's people who have been in worse situations that got out of it. So that's the first thing. The second thing is realizing that you have to suffer to be able to do or build anything great. Whether that's a good body, good business, you know, whatever. If you want to do anything great, you have to fucking suffer. It's just a fact to achieve anything. And in certain ways, I'm not saying you have to get tortured, but, you know, like, in the gym, if you want to do well, it's gonna hurt. If you want to get quicker running, it's gonna hurt. Like, I did a run earlier, it fucking sucked for 20 minutes. But then I saw the time and I was like, fucking hell, getting quick. So that's probably the third thing. I mean, this was the thing I think about so much now, particularly when I'm on a run, because it's like more it's easier to relate to like a physical endeavor than maybe building a business, which is like much longer term was just when you think you're done. This is what he specifically says. When you think you're fucking done, you're probably at 50% in terms of like, again, that's easier to relate to a physical exercise. So when you want to quit, like in a run, you can probably keep going twice as far like you physically, scientifically can.

Well, you give up mentally.

Exactly.

Before you give up.

Exactly. So yeah, I've kind of like thought about that a lot, even probably more in like a fitness respect, but it kind of ties over and like, you know, when you think something's bad, like you're a bad. Deep down I feel like everyone's got, everyone's got that, that like dark side.

In them and like everyone can access that point.

That's why I had to access to get out of that hole. I looked myself in the mirror and said I'm a bad and I'm gonna do again. Yeah.

And to be honest, I know it's wishy washy, but like for me, if I'm having a bad day, genuinely, I think like it comes back to like gratitude be re centering to what you're actually grateful for. Realistically, like, who cares if that, you know, you didn't hit the revenue figure you wanted to that month or that KPI, whatever it is. Realistically, like if you look at the grand scheme of things are the people you care about, your fucking boys, your family, your mental and own physical health, if that's all in check, then realistically, who gives a shit? And that should realign you and put things into perspective.

Yeah. So on that one thing I started doing recently, and this is definitely in a fucking overshare, but I forced myself to start doing it a few months ago and I actually think it's helped is that every fucking day. Maybe I missed a few days now and then, but every day on my iPad, I could do in a notebook, but I write down a list of things I'm grateful for and also I write down a list of, I guess, effectively affirmations. So to give you some examples, I'm not going to read off the whole list, but I write similar lists every day. Probably it's just repetition, but like I'll write shit like I'm grateful for my physical and mental health right now because without that nothing else matters. Because it's funny, when you get ill, you don't give a fuck about your Facebook ads, do I mean that's a fact. I write shit like, I'm grateful for the opportunity to be in the trenches because so many people in the third world country would die. Just have the chance to work on something great. What's another one? I'm great. One thing I've started, Brian, it really. It's only really recently that I've been able to actually think this is. I'm so grateful for the failures of the past because they're going to be the greatest gift ever that no one else has, or certainly no one else I know has. And then other shit like the affirmations, I will literally. And this might sound ridiculous, but I'll write shit like I'm a bad motherfucker capable of literally anything on earth. Yeah. And like, just shit like that makes you think. And I. I'll write stupid shit like anything I desire I will attract like.

Shit like that sounds wishy washy believer.

Does actually help because it And Andy Tate, actually, who was nearly gonna come on the pod. Very controversial character.

Yeah, he's hilarious.

He messaged me on Twitter or he replied to my tweet saying he would come on, like, next time because we tried to get my money to London. He did a video about this. And like. And again, people probably see one side of him. But I related to it a lot, actually. It's kind of. Some of the stuff I started writing I got from that because he said, like, you need to believe you're the man before you've ever done anything. You know, whether that's with women, with business, with fitness. Like, if you're a fucking loser, which we all are when you start out, like, whatever, in some way, we all feel like that at some point. I certainly did like a few months ago. But like, just telling yourself, forcing yourself to change that mindset, like, believing you're the fucking man, you know, in any.

Respect is literally all it is.

But I writing it down just trains your subconscious almost. And I do genuinely feel a benefit from it.

I think there's like, I don't know, like, my friend Joe, who came on my podcast again, Jordan plan you need to get him on yours. He's. I think Joe and Ollie mentioned this on when you. They were on. But they're business partners and he's like a big believer in energy and, you know, being around your fucking your friends and how that can really drive energy and, you know, attract certain things. And there's. I think there's two forms of energy. There's. There's one which is, you know, writing things into existence. As you just said, and then being around like minded people that talking about these things can help drive that. And yeah, I'm such a believer of that, the affirmations and what that can actually do for you. Because realistically, if you don't, if you don't believe something, it's not gonna happen. If you don't, if you don't actually talk about it, it's not gonna happen. I think it's such a big thing.

Yeah, I think the problem with that is that people get the misconception that anyone I, anyone else is implying that writing it down, doing no work could happen. Writing it down, exactly that digital to people that got people confused.

Well, they think they, they thought that they could just write something down and like fucking poof into existence. And that's the difference, that's the problem. You can do that shit, but if you haven't got the action to back it up.

Andy. Priscilla, Best podcast ever, by the way. MF CEO doesn't make it anymore. Go listen to every single fucking episode of that. He makes a new one now. Which I should. I just don't listen to that. But go listen to all that because that's the first part I ever listened to. But he spoke a lot about this. And this is a guy that's running like a billion pound supplement business in America. First form, it's called. He's a fucking savage. He's kind of like David Goggins in that. Like, he's like, he's like, no bullshit, work your ass off sort of type. But when I first heard him speak about this like 5 years ago is what changed my perspective on like, you know, law of attraction, blah, blah, blah. Like even Conor McGregor is another example. He speaks a lot about like visualization. Like the point is that is the foundation that enables you to get in the right headspace to then go and do the fucking grueling work. If you don't have the foundation though, you won't even start the work or you'll do the work in the wrong way because I. Ultimately, you know, the same principles applies with anything. Like if you don't think that you can ever get good, you won't even try and then you won't get good. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Fact. So it comes down to negativity as well. Like negative energy is like a massive thing.

And I was, I've been a very negative person, by the way. This is like the. And I still am now. And then I'm a very cynical cunt. A lot of the time which I say flippantly about myself, but, like, when I was in that hole, I was a very negative person about everything. Like, even my mates would say it. Like I didn't believe in myself in a way at that point, but I still, I still managed to get into the place if I can start building again because probably because of years of previous self belief, I don't know what it was, but like, even in that hole I managed to like fucking start. But like, I think the point is, yeah, like everyone starts not believing in themselves. Yeah, like, you know, affirmations and shit can be a. Certainly a useful starting point. Yeah, it's part of a process.

It's a puzzle and, you know, it's a part of a puzzle. I think that's important. There's one thing I want to come on to and it wouldn't be a midnight pod without this topic.

So.

Relationships.

Yeah.

Behind, you know, there's the, the old, the old saying. And again, you know, not trying to be sexist here just is the saying, behind every great man is an even greater woman. I think that's it. Don't fucking quote me on that. Firstly, thoughts on you've obviously went through a breakup whilst on this podcast. Thoughts on being in a relationship on it whilst being an entrepreneur and trying to build something big and meaningful. You know, is it, is it a positive? Is it a negative? What are your thoughts on that since going through your last breakup?

Yeah, look, I think the first thing is I'm the most overly romantic, poetic, fucking, arguably hopeless romantic, cone on the fucking earth. Like, I am not that guy. I'm not the Andy Tate character. I'm not that guy that's like, fuck, bitches get money. Like, I can put that fucking act on. But like, you know, at the core of it, I'm like a romantic fucking poetic, artistic. Don't know what I'm fucking trying to say. But I'm the fucking guy that probably that would. Has and that probably would and has written fucking cringy love letters, you know, in certain contexts and probably has written songs for girls and shit, if I care about them. But yeah, I mean, I definitely, I like the idea of like the beautiful romantic relationship, blah, blah, blah. But I also, I'm a fucking realist and I know the reality of certain situations. And I've certainly, at this point I've been through, well, only really like one serious relationship and breakup, which was very painful. And you know, I've have experience with girls and relationships with women over the years. Obviously I've Never. I've never had a lack of that. So, yeah, I think it's different for everyone. But like, I just want to preface that saying I'm not this fucking money to it's like, you know, fuck women, like, just bitches, all this shit. Because that's just not me. And I see a lot of that and I think it's so fake online. But there's a time and a place. Like if I listen to future and fucking go to a nightclub and talk a bit, you know, I mean, like, talk a big game with the boys, whatever. But then I'm probably more realistic the guy that listens to fucking somebody else by the 1975 and fucking, like, wants to fucking get a tingle down my spine about my future girlfriend that don't even exist. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think or thinks about someone from my past and fucking deeps it.

I think realistically that's more realistically. And I've kind of gone through this. Like, I don't think it's a bad thing at all to be in a relationship in business. And I'm very much against these people who are like. I'm very against these people who are like, oh, you're, fuck it. Almost like looking down on you for going out and enjoying yourself and fucking having a girlfriend and having a social life and shit. Because realistically, why are you working hard if it's not to actually have fun, you know, as well outside of work? I think what's important though, a big thing on that is that they need to be on board with what you're doing. And, you know, it's very easy to get with people who don't quite understand what you're doing and you maybe haven't let them on to, you know, the amount of time investment needed to into the thing that you're doing. They need to be on board with what you're doing. And that's fucking important. And I think when you get someone who isn't, isn't it, and is detrimental to that, then that's where the issue is, is. But you can find people that can fucking enhance what you're doing and, you know, understand that you're building something for the future for the two of you.

Yeah, exactly. Like, I think having a great relationship with a girl you fucking love and think is beautiful is like, it's one of those pure things on earth. Honestly, like those moments from my past relationship that were good, you know, they're still good memories and hopefully I'll make similar and improved memories with the Next girl I end up in a relationship with, whoever that is, you know, the certain ones I fucking wouldn't say no to. But still pending. I completely agree. I think it's a. It's a bit of a cope or like a fucking bullshit stereotype that like entrepreneurs can't fucking speak to girls, have relationships or speak to guys, whichever way around you are. Yeah, I think that's bullshit. It's like an immature way of looking at things. But yeah, it's important that they're on the same page. Especially when I think it just comes down to like transparency and honesty and communication in relationships. Like I, I love the idea of having a great relationship with the girl that really supports my vision and. And I support whatever she's doing. But that. That hasn't happened yet. Because that hasn't happened. And maybe that's quite rare. Yeah, it's not something I'm searching for, which is maybe why it hasn't happened. I think that's the better way to be honest.

I know a lot of people focus.

On my own shit right now.

I think I know a lot of.

People wants to join in, then they're welcome.

His. His Instagram is. Yeah, no, I think like the point on that is. Yeah. I mean taking. Taking that one step further then do you think you could it. Because I actually know. I have a lot of friends who are business owners who have work with their girlfriends in their business. And for me, I genuinely could never do that.

I mean, that's a really bad idea. I know a few people have done that. Wouldn't work. I can't see that actually working for anyone, to be honest. I think there's a. You could say, you know, it's down to personal preference. I think that's too far because you never get away. You need something. You make bad business decisions because you fucking.

Like it's emotional.

Exactly.

Decisions shouldn't be emotional.

Again, I've never done that, but I just can't see how that works for anyone long term. Long term being the key word. It might work for a year or two. Yeah. I actually know someone that does that as well.

But like Connor does that. Like he's married to. And I think it works.

They work together.

Connors, Connor's dad, brother and wife all work for him.

Oh, shit. I didn't realize.

Mad, but. And it fucking work.

I don't think dictatorship.

Controversial, but I don't. I don't think it can't work. But yeah, I think it's. There's very few situations where I think It. It does. And for me anyway, I'm very much a person where I do need that disconnect.

Yeah, I definitely probably need that more. I've never really had that because my. Fuck. Yeah. I mean, maybe had an element of that when I was in my previous relationship, which is probably healthy. But, yeah, that wasn't meant to be. So. Yeah, relationships are difficult. I think it's a skill like any other. And until you go through one and probably like a business that goes bad, a relationship that goes bad, you learn a lot from that about yourself and other people and how to deal with other people. I certainly wasn't perfect in that relationship or breakup. And you learn a lot from it. Yeah. I think both of you.

It's like any of you do gain experience, like when you fail in business, you know, you need. You go. It's unlikely that you're going to marry the first person that you meet. That.

Yeah. But it's a difficult one. I actually think I had a tweet that went my most viral ever tweet a few months ago. Like, I tweeted about the whole dating game, how it's kind of fucked this generation because in the moment I tweeted it and it got like a million impressions, 10,000 likes, all this shit. But people obviously, obviously relate to that because I think it's hard now, I think dating and romance, and it's hard now because there's superficial choice. There's too much options for everyone, you know, too many options for everyone. There's limited authenticity in the way we present ourselves online, particularly like a dating respect.

I was with my ex girlfriend for like three years, three, four years. And it was during. It was kind of like venturing over the period where Tinder was just becoming a thing. And there was none of that, like super lights, any of that. And then we broke up and I was like, okay, I want to try all this dating app now. Like, kind of had it on a pedestal. Thought it was going to be this amazing thing. And it just seemed weird to me. Like, this idea of yours is so superficial, liking someone just for the way they look. And then this forced conversation just to try and get someone.

I mean, it is, but it's like that is how people meet each other these days more than anything else. Yeah, it's kind of scary. So with it with that girl.

So we, like, we broke up and for like four months. I went to Bali, had a good time there, came back, tried the dating scene. And it just, like I said, it was just. I found it very Strange. And we just very naturally got back together. So, yeah, like, technically we've been together for a fair amount of time.

Six years.

We don't live together yet. And I'm about to buy a place. Not with her, like on my own. But we have a. We have a good relationship, which means that I don't have to fuck. We, like, we don't feel like we're on top of each other or rely on each other or each other's friendship.

But I think honestly, probably one of the biggest lessons I'd say from my previous relationship, which I'm not allowed to speak around the pod, but it's just don't live together. At least not too soon.

So did you live together then? Was that. Would you say that was like the big thing?

That was the kicker. Maybe it has to happen.

But do you think as well it was like, because of everything going on with.

Oh, yeah.

Neon Beach.

Yeah.

Did you take that on her?

I mean, I. Yeah, I lost it. It was a bad time. It was a bad combination of factors. But it wasn't meant to be anyway. I truly believe that. But, yeah, that probably expedited the downfall of the process because I just. Yeah. So what?

Like one of the final questions with. We could go on all night here.

Yeah.

But definitely could. Again, there's another question. There's a final question that I know you ask a lot that we definitely come back to, but what advice do you have them from a relationship perspective? Because everyone goes through fucking breakups. I know you spoke about yours on a few of the pods.

Yeah.

Like, in hindsight, the biggest learnings from that, like, that someone could take going through heartbreak.

Do you mean about relationships in general? About heartbreak?

Well, relationships in general.

I mean, probably the things I would say is. I think I answered this in the Q and A. The first thing is just don't sway who you are or how you live for someone else, whether it's a guy or a girl, or you're the guy and the girl, whatever it is, like you should be. And it's so stereotyped, but it's fucking true. Like, you should end up being like, genuinely complementary to each other rather than just, you know, usually it's one. It's kind of one that leads. Leads the process. And like, you end up becoming someone else because you live how they do or, you know, you become part of their life or they become part of your life rather than fucking living how you want to live and, you know, coming together. So that's probably the first thing it's like stay true to who the fuck you are. I think, don't. I think take, take your time with shit. Like don't. You know, I'm guilty of it. Probably every guy or girl watching it has been guilty of it. At some point you end up fucking, you know, fucking get feelings for someone first thing. Next thing you know, if I can sing each other five days a week. Even though you don't live together and just too intense, I think, yeah, just like focus on your own shit. Keep your distance. Not keep your distance, but like I'd probably say, you know, unless you're living together, don't be seeing each other like every day because you lose the spark and the magic of like the romantic side of a relationship. When that happens, I think and then it becomes like mundane and every day, which is exactly what you didn't want it to become in the first place. And it might have to become that eventually if you live together and you get married. But like certainly like the first year or few years, I wouldn't recommend doing that. And I think the third thing is what I said before. Don't live together too soon. And I think genuinely by too soon, I mean, but probably like before you're fucking getting married or like before you know, they're literally the one you're probably gonna get married to.

One of the most exciting things in a relationship is missing someone. And if you're together on top of.

That'S kind of deep. That's very true.

If you're on top of each other, like genuinely, some of the. My girlfriend will probably bite my head off saying this, but we were together when we were at uni and you know, it's the time where it's that love is like so deep because when you miss someone, that feeling of wanting to be with them is, is like pretty, pretty insane.

I miss that feeling. Honestly. I think having, I think like loving someone, I have deep feelings for someone is like such a pure like human feeling.

Do you think you would.

It would just honestly miss it.

Cuz like I know someone at top, top level, good friend of mine, I won't say his name. Top level entrepreneur, fucking doing big numbers, several businesses. He was like ahead of, in his, in his niche. Got with a girl, you know, fell head over, head over heels for her.

The best of us.

They. She moved in with him. He obviously, he had like a sick gaffe, like really nice place and just you know, fell off the ball with, with you know, his business was still doing numbers, but wasn't he kind of got Very comfortable and got so engrossed in his relationship that his competitors caught up with him.

Yeah.

Do you think if you found that person now, you know, in the early stages of your business, when this is your baby, how do you think that would affect you?

Such an interesting point. Because it happens to everyone, by the way. Not. Not just me. Plenty of my mates that been on the pod have been through similar shit, even though they probably wouldn't let it on and probably would never speak about it, like I would. I think relationships for anyone and falling in love and all that shit can be a real test, particularly for an entrepreneur. I don't know. I think now, I wouldn't let it have a negative effect, but it, like, love does crazy things to you. Yeah, it really does. It's the ultimate drug. Like, whether, you know, whether it's love or you think it's love, like, you know, deep romantic feelings for someone can consume you. And fucking everyone's been there. I mean, I certainly have. I'll be the first to say it. Like, if you really like someone, they're on your mind all the time.

Nothing else matters in that.

Yeah. And then it's like almost everything you do is waiting to see them again. And it's a beautiful feeling, but it's a dangerous one. And it's a. Anything that's that intense and quick usually has the potential to crash down as. Just as quick. Yeah.

Like Steve.

Yeah. That's why I say, like, you know, stuff that's built on better foundations can usually last longer, whether it's business relationship, all that shit. But to answer the question, I think it could work now I've got more experience, I guess I'd probably be like, fucking scared of getting feelings again, to be honest. I don't know. Kind of. I think it could work. I think if you're on the same page, it can definitely work. If you just communicate and you're similar people and you get each other and you view the world the same way, it can definitely work. But I think, particularly, like, as a young guy or girl, like, fucking, you know, feelings can. Can. Can crush you. Yeah. Fuck, we've all been there.

I think, like you said, it just needs to. You need to fucking lay the. Lay it on the table early. You know, realistically, if you were to fall in love, you got to tell.

Them about what you hope it happen again. It's a beautiful process.

I'm sure it will. I'm sure it will.

I just haven't found that person yet. Or at least they haven't Found. I haven't found me yet, whatever.

Whichever way it happens when you least expect it, as they always say. So finally then, to round off thinking, midnight pod fashion. Three things.

Yeah, you wish. You always put pressure on people to say this.

It's a hard one. Three things you.

Three bits of advice.

Three bits of advice you wish you could tell yourself to your 18. Yeah, to your 18 year old self.

Christ, I'm gonna have to drop some absolutely fucking vile knowledge bombs here. Three bits of advice. And there's probably 100 I could give, but I'm gonna try and pick out three instinctively, I think. The first is if you have good intentions and always ultimately try and do the right thing and you're a good person and you're not cunt to anyone and that will always pay dividends, even if in the short term it's not as profitable. So always leave with good intentions. I think I've always done that. And it pays off with relationships and reputation and how people see you. Because look, I don't think anyone wants to be the guy that made millions from forex courses when they're 40 years old and they get asked what they did as a. What they did to make their money. But I think about that a lot. Like it's what Gary Vee says, how you make your money is just as important as how much you. Is more important than how much you make. Yeah. So you know the general vibe of that, I think. Just think about that, like whether it's how you make money, how you speak to people, how you present yourself, just fucking do the right thing because you fucking know dear down. So that's probably the first thing. Second is, I think the biggest risk when you're young is taking no risks. I really, really do. So I mean, I did a lot of that. So I would advise myself to do as much of that as possible. And whether that's, you know, starting a business. And be willing to fucking lose money for experience because fucking experience, like I said before, experience and connections are way more value than money, like way more valuable. So, you know, be willing to do that. And part of that probably means ignoring your parents and maybe teachers or whatever that advise you not to do it ultimately. Like a bonus point on the second one, don't listen to people that fucking haven't done anything remotely similar to what you want to do. And that might feel rebellious and like bad at first, but it's literally the only way to go. Like, don't fucking listen to your parents unless they've built a business. If that's what you want to do. So that's kind of the extra point to take the risks. Because the riskiest thing is none. What's the final point? Have a sickening self belief and a sickening worth and work ethic. Yeah. And I think I've always had that. And people don't see, you know, behind the scenes like I think anyone that's done anything of any significance in any realm of life had firstly a sickening self belief and sickening is a funny word, but it's true. And also just a sickening work ethic. Like I've always deep down known that like if it comes down to it, me and anyone else getting on a fucking treadmill or whatever it is, you're getting off first or I'm gonna fucking die trying to be you. And I actually believe that. And that's why I like a lot of like the physical exercise stuff to push myself along. But yeah, it has to start with a disgusting, almost arrogant level of self belief because that's where everything starts. And then you fucking make it happen with the work ethic because no one has ever done anything great without, like I said, a sickening work ethic and putting in the hours every single day for years, probably decades. And that's why you have to love it because otherwise you're gonna give up. And yeah, we ain't giving up.

Hell, I don't think I can add to that.

That's probably what I'd say. There's a lot of probably extra things I could think, but.

Power, like I think, I think that's it really like fucking. It's such a good point. I genuinely think just love what you do and you believe in yourself to the extreme. Doing what you fucking love and you will fucking make it. Yeah, mate. Like Matt, I think this is. It's been a pleasure, a classic episode. We've gone pretty deep at times.

I'm probably go down a million things for me but I think it was interesting to reflect from my side certainly and sit in this chair for the first time which is very uncomfy and.

You feel like we've covered all you wanted to cover.

Yeah, I mean, geez. Yeah, there's always gonna be more two hours, aren't we? Or something. So there's always more. But yeah, I think it's just. It's therapeutic for me to speak about shit. There's probably certain things I've mentioned here, certainly for the first time that I've never mentioned. And there's probably always more things that are going to come out because I'm, like I said, trying to just be super real with all of it.

And we'll have to make this, like a yearly tradition, like an annual recap of a map.

And hopefully, ultimately, like, the whole premise of this pod is. Yeah, it's therapeutic for me. It's fun to do whatever. We drink wine and shit. I genuinely enjoy doing it. But I know, I know and I hope, I hope and I know that people, certain people listening to it will fucking get, like, severely. Not severely, like deeply, you know, they'll be impacted by it, like, ultimately. So whether that's sharing experiences or relating to it or being at an age where I was, where I said that certain things. And, yeah, like. And the whole idea of this pod, broadly, is it's never from a place of, I made it, let's make a pod. It's. I'm in the process of trying to make it. I've done some interesting. That's relatable. I think I've got a relatively interesting story. You know, we share it with guests. It's just documenting the fucking process because there's so much. Doing it in an authentic way. That's the key thing, because there's so many people documenting stuff and putting content out. But there's an ulterior motive. It's clearly not authentic. You know, they're presenting themselves in a certain way. And I truly believe the shit we put out on this board is just More real than 99.99% of content on the Internet. I genuinely believe that. So whether that's right or not, I still fucking believe.

Yeah. I think you're a great exemplifier of, like. You know, Gary Vee said it a few times. It's the whole idea of document, don't create.

Yeah.

You know, genuinely, if you're. If you struggle as a person to make content, just fucking document what you're doing. Like, in its simplest form, the new series that you've started, you're just in front of a camera talking about that last month for Space Goods and what's happening, what went well, what didn't go well.

Yeah.

And if anything, you know, regardless of the metrics that people get caught up on, just fucking do it for yourself. Like, a good friend of mine recently started a brand. He's. He's doing something similar. He's not even advertised it or, like, pushed it on his socials because it's purely just for him and to look back on.

Yeah.

So I think that's a big thing. You're a great exemplifier of, like, just document what you're doing.

That's what I'm trying to do. So, yeah, the story is going to be fucking biblical. So let's go.

Let's fucking have it. Well, I mean, I'll do the outro again, I guess.

Yeah, go for it.

Fucking you on Apple Music.

We're on fucking everything.

Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube. Subscribe to us on YouTube. Give us a comment if you enjoyed this episode. Give us five star on Spotify. Also on Apple Music. I don't really know how it works on that platform, but we'll see you next week. I won't see you, but Matt will see you next week on subscribe to the pod.

Fucking leave a comment. Tell a friend, let's grow this fucking thing to the moon. See you next time.

Peace.

Peace.