Tokyo Olympics Heartbreak, GB Rowing & Future of Sport - James Rudkin | Midnight Podcast Episode 10
GB rower James Rudkin talks about five years in the Olympic programme, training loads that hit 5:57 on the 2k erg, and winning bronze in the men's eight at Tokyo 2020. He describes lockdown training, the cardboard beds in Japan, and why he's staying on for Paris despite the low funding and sponsorship reality in rowing.
Questions this video answers
November 14, 2021.
Men's eight (won bronze).
Five years (he states 'Five years').
Around 5:57–5:58 (2k time).
Selections occurred in early March 2020; training centre closed and lockdown began in late March 2020.
Chapters
Right then back with episode 10 of the Midnight Pod flying through these and we have our first, I guess, non strictly entrepreneurial guest, but actually a fucking Olympic athlete, which I think is pretty sick. James Rudkin, member of the men's eights in Tokyo. And rowing is probably going to throw people off guard with this podcast because they're like, this is. They thought this was about like e commerce, specifically entrepreneurship, but rowing, believe it or not, was a pretty fucking big part of my life when I was like a teenager. And I probably like credit it for giving me a lot of like life lessons and shit, which sounds cheesy as fuck, but just like taught me how to work hard. And I rode in York City from like the age of 11 until pretty much 17, then quit and then went back. And Tom and Ryan are probably watching this from the lead shed. And Elliot Sharp, back in Newcastle when I was in uni and rode there, but then finally hung up my oars, so to speak, after a very average career in the sport. So, yeah, it's pretty sick to have you on. Well, thanks, man.
Great to be here.
Yeah, I suppose the first question, like usual, then we'll just get into a load of shit. Because I want to ask so many questions is really just like, I guess first. Yeah, how do you. Well, really just what your background and how you got into being. Because just aside now, I feel like rowers are massively underappreciated by people that don't know the sport. And you'll probably agree, but like, in my opinion, it's got to be the hardest sport to train for. Yeah, but you get paid nothing and no one knows about you, really.
Yeah, you don't do it for money. Like, you don't do it for like the glamour and the fame. You do it for like the, the love of the sport and the love of like going out on the water and just like being with your mates and being a team like that, that's. That's what sports all about. And I guess that's kind of what maybe we can talk about a bit tonight. It's like, yeah, we can talk about specifics of rowing, but actually it's more about like teams, sports, people, relationships, like fitness, all that stuff. Like, that's the bit of rowing that I enjoy and I really love. And that's why I got into it. Going to your question. Like, you know, I got into rowing because I had a go at it. My dad taught me and I fucking enjoyed it. Like, it was awesome. Like, it was just the feeling of being out on the water, on your own or in a group of people, whatever. Like, beautiful summer's day. Like, flat water, the sounds, the smells like that environment, it's just. It's awesome and it's so, like liberating and refreshing.
Yeah.
To be outside. And now I get. I get this, my job, which is awesome. Like, I can't. I can't top that at the moment.
And where do you start? Were you from? Because, as well, I feel like people that don't know Ryan, I guess it's typically like very southern, heavy sport. I used to take the piss being like Ryan York and then running at Northumbria, like, you know, coming down from the north to row at like, Dornier or whatever, I guess in Nottingham, in the Midlands. But where did you start?
Yeah, I mean, I won't go. I won't get into the weeds, but it's like. So I was Northamptonshire Ish. Which is like Midland, South Midlands kind of area. So, like, I won't call myself completely a southerner, but I kind of sound a bit Southern. So. Yeah, that's just. That's. That's unfortunate. Just how it is. I was playing rowing up north, which is great, but it's. It's something that should be like, I think could be spread, like further and, like, should be more accessible to more people. Yeah. But, yeah, so Northamptonshire is where. Where I was from. Learned to row there and then I went to uni, Newcastle, obviously. That's where our kind of connection happened. And it's like, you know, we've got some obviously, like, friend, like friends from there. And that was where I was for four years, which was awesome. Like, incredible city. Like, I had an awesome time.
Yeah, definitely. Best student city in my opinion.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, still, like chatted some guys today who are like, went up to Newcastle for a night out and they're like, why has no one told me about this? It's like, mate, it's not a secret.
Yeah, true.
It's awesome. It's great.
Three troubles for a fiver. Is that still a thing? Was it inflated to three for six?
I think. I think it is. It's some place you've got to go. The right time, right place. Yeah, but it's inflation. But like, yeah, you can still find those. Still find those spots where you get your three trebs for a fiver, which is pretty. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't. Couldn't touch that nowadays. Like, that was.
Yeah, very true. Try and get your piss on the pod.
Yeah, well, yeah, Too hard.
So how old were you. When you actually started, then I guess just to go back there slightly, but then we can get into, like, more recent stuff.
Yeah, yeah, well. So I think rowing is definitely one of those sports. It helps if you start young, quite frankly. Like, you can get into it when you're older. Like, it's not a. It's not like, if you're past, like, 20, then you're not going to make it. Like, that's not. It's like, it's one of those. It's like it's not quite as extreme as, like, gymnastics or swimming or whatever, but like, it's like just learning those kind of motor neuron skills, like how to move yourself, like how to feel your weight in the boat, like how to. How to connect to the water and move yourself.
Like that kind of hard sport.
It's exactly my opinion. You pick it up easier when you're younger. Like, children are just looking good at learning stuff. Like, that's, like, that's. That's the best place to pick it up when you're younger. So I. I first got a bonus seven. Pretty.
Oh, that is. Yeah.
Yeah. Even for rowing. That's young. But, like, that's. I think that probably, to be honest, helped me because it's like I kind of got that immediate. Like, I'm still. You're still kind of being molded at that age, aren't you? You're still kind of growing and working out stuff.
And when did you think you were good or realize you were good, if that. Or is that more of a gradual thing?
I think it's probably. It would more be the case that I realized rather than thought because so I never, as I said, I got into the sport because I enjoyed it, because I really loved it. Like, I liked the action of going, going rowing, going rowing. My mate. So that was all. That was always good. But I only kind of realized once I started winning races and getting selected for teams and stuff, I was like, oh, actually, like, there's something here. Like, maybe. Maybe I'm actually all right and maybe this is something that can go further. Like, I didn't think about the Olympics or kind of higher stuff like that until I was maybe like last couple of years at school when I was actually realizing, yeah. That maybe this is something that I could take up. Maybe I could carry it forward because, like, you know, a lot of people try to be professional athletes and it's. And most don't succeed. And it's like, it's that kind of small like that, that you've got to Kind of cross everything together where it's like you're good enough, it's the right time, like the right opportunities come to you and then you make it. And that only. Only happens for a few people. And I was one of the lucky ones where I was like all kind of stars aligned at the right moment for me to kind of. To make it.
Yeah. And then was there like national schools successes? I was joking previously. That was my highlight when I was 16.
Well, I tell you what, you. You did better than I did. I only got silver at the. Was it 16 year olds? Yeah. Yeah.
J16 double scores. Saint Leonards are watching and Matt and Ollie who then went on to get under 23 gold. Yeah, I beat them when I was 16. Yeah. Varley. Yeah. Forgot his second name then. Jeez, long time. Yeah, that's my claim to fame. And then so obviously was that all sculling? I mean this is gonna be real technical speak for people that are watching this and don't know what the fuck rowing is, probably for a start. But for those that are. Because I feel like there's a cult following under there somewhere. Was that old sculling as a junior.
That was all sculling. Yeah. I didn't. So sculling's two blades. Three. There's the note, one in each hand and that's how you row. You can row in a single, which is just you and that's that sculling. And that's what I was doing.
Yeah.
Until I went to uni and I learned to sweep, which is one blade, which is like the boat race. Like that's the kind of. Yeah. In the eight, the bigger boat. So that's. That's where. That's sweep. So that's where I. I switched. Yeah. I switched at uni and that's where. That's what I'd done since.
And by the time you got to unique, obviously Newcastle, I guess probably second to Brookes and maybe. Well, probably second to Brookes. Would you say is fair is probably the best running uni in the country.
Yeah. You know, Brooks Brookes have obviously been very good the last few years. Newcastle kind of. I mean I'm always gonna fight Newcastle's corner Newcastle till I die. Yeah. No, like they. Newcastle kind of like trailblazed for improving British unis and well apart from the bow race unions, but they kind of really like made a mark in like the mid 2000s to sort of like 2010, 2012, and then got. We got overtaken by like Brooks and other unis and the Whole kind of standard has lifted up, which has been really awesome to see. So no, like Brooks are obviously the powerhouse at the moment, which is just great.
Did you rode with James Reader?
I did. I rode with him this week, yeah.
Oh really? Yeah. No, because, yeah, he went to York. He was probably three, four years above me. And then. Yeah, then I actually I was in Marbella like a few months ago and I was watching Henley Finals which obviously a month delayed this year. And then I was like, he was in. I think he won the Y fold.
He did, yeah.
And I thought, who's that really thick looking guy with ginger hair? That's got to be Reader.
That is really. Yeah, no, reader's great. I was.
Yeah.
Overlap with it because he get back into it. Yeah, yeah.
He took a few years off or something.
Yeah, yeah, he finished. He's a couple of years older than me. He went back. He's down in London here now. Right. Thames around club and he's. Yeah, the dreams come true and it's awesome. I guess the thing with Henley and like and rowing, like, it's got obviously so many levels through it. Like seeing your mates kind of do well like finally like and through commitment and drive and passion, like that's, that's what that's really through and through. And he's like a, an example of just like an awesome club rower that it's like just persevering at it and just improving every day and getting better, like, and he's achieved his dream, which is awesome.
Yeah. Like, side question. How big do you think the difference is between like elite level club rowing and. It probably sounds like a patronizing question, so apologies and like Olympic level because obviously there's a big difference. But you know, is it, is it like marginal and it's all these like little extra bits that make a huge difference or is it like if you race them, it would be diabolical difference.
Yeah. I mean the standard, that standard is quite, quite big. The gap is quite big. But then it's like, you know, you'd look at a really good club crew and be like, it's a very good, like looks rose really well. Like he's a very good crew. Like you're not, you're not looking at being like, oh, those guys are terrible rowers. It's just. Yeah, they're doing the same motions. It's just generally the Olympic guys are like doing a little bit better and just a lot stronger and you just, just training load is all about, you know, volume of training and physiology.
Yeah. Rides Are hard. I did not miss the erg. I was doing some erg sprints in the gym the other day, but I reckon I'd be lucky to pull like a 640 these days. Probably. Probably slower, to be fair. It's one of those things that sounds kind of easy when you've done it in the past. And then you get on an erg and it's like, fuck this.
Yeah, well, that's the thing.
That's what I don't do anymore.
Yeah. So more people kind of get into rowing through the erg in the gym because so many gyms have an erg, which is like, it's a really good.
Thing and they all do it wrong.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the classic international problem. When you, when you. Yeah. When you're obviously like, you're a good rower and you go into a gym, you see someone just like hacking at the thing and like throwing their arms around to be like, oh, but, you know, each their own. You know, if you still get a physical benefit from ultimate, it's just a pulley with a handle on the end of it. So you still get the same. You can still get benefit out of it. Doing whatever you like.
Yeah. Coming back to Uniro and then because I remember hearing like rumors of what Blue Star were doing. I think like 14 by 1500 meters or whatever. Like, I don't know exactly, but like firstly when you got started, so when you arrived in first year uni, I guess 18, 19, whatever. Were you already like, notably good in that crew? Because I know Angelo was the coach. Right. Is he still there?
Italian guy? Yeah, he's still there.
Legendary coach, I've heard. Don't know him. And obviously, yeah, sick training program. Probably slightly higher level than Northam Rewards over the road at Turk. If Tom's watching, I think he's still there. But yeah. So like two part question. How good were you when you got there and how hard was the training? I suppose, like right from the get go. Was it like a full time commitment alongside uni?
Pretty much, yeah. So I was one of those kind of late bloomer, you'd say, you know, like, I kind of. I got a lot better once I got to uni. Like, I was reasonably. I was always big, I was always a tall guy, but I hadn't kind of filled out. Like I got. I put on like 10 kilos in my first year. Just like there was some fat in there definitely, but like it was mainly muscle mass because I just hadn't done any weight training. Before and I just, I wasn't strong, I was just a bean pole basically when I turned up at uni. So like yeah, I did a lot of weights, a lot of hard sessions and I ate a fuckload. And you just like just, just. I just filled out, just bulked out quite a lot. And like that helps you manage that kind of program which is just like lots of high intensity, like hard training pieces. Like a lot on the Ergo, lots of side by side pieces on the water. Like that kind of thing just really kind of molded me into a, into the athlete that I am now. And it's like you kind of, you learn where your limits are in that kind of program which you only kind of, you know, kind of lots of technical stuff but like, you know, different kinds of. Different kinds. Plenty of ways to skin a cat is the phrase. And like that one, that program particularly was all about just like high intensity stuff. Sprints basically the whole time, which is brutal and like, like lots of lactic acid, like all that kind of stuff. And that was, yeah, that was very tough from yeah, when I was 18, 19 year old doing that was fucking brutal.
And do you think looking back, that took away from like the uni experience of going out getting pissed, shagging girls and things like that? Or did it or did it not? And did you have like, you know, just a rowing community that did that in their own context. Yo fellas, quick one first bit of promo for the pod. You may or may not have heard I released a fucking E Comm course a few months ago. Basically spent like six months making it. Cause I was in between businesses as you probably know. If you follow my shit, I must say, 12 hours long. It's fucking quality content, especially for the price it's at now. I was gonna drop it at like 1500 quid with some bullshit guru y webinar and all that rubbish. But as you know, it's not my main thing. I'm working on a new brand right now. Very, very fucking much in the trenches. Which is why I think it's actually a better course than everything else out there. Cause it's built on real experience of my brands in the past and my current one. So yeah, long story short, I've dropped it to 299 quid. Which is fucking criminal to be honest, because it should be way more expensive than that. I think it's super, super valuable. If you're interested in ecom, you're already in E Comm and you wanted to get into e comm 0 to 1 starting a brand from scratch then definitely worth investing in. Link is in the bio of this video or podcast. Spotify, Apple Music, wherever the you're listening or watching and enjoy the rest of the pod. How is it still you were like friends with other people that weren't right. So obviously it's a bit of a, it's like a certain type of person and what's the word? It's a, it's a bit of a clique I suppose.
Right.
Because it's so high intensity. Unlike probably more than any other sport at uni. Certainly.
Yeah. No, you definitely like you make when you're, when if you're taking rowing serious at uni, all your best mates are rowers. You go out together like. Yeah, exactly. Like you, you build relationships together. Like you live together. Like I always lived with all rowers all the time through uni and like, you know, you could say that maybe I definitely won't have gone out as much as, as people like other people in my year but you know, we still went out quite a lot. Like not, not, you know, not like, not every night but like once or twice a week like most of the year and then like you do like less like through the summer and that kind of thing. Then as I took sport, as I took it more seriously, like my final year, I didn't go as much but like when you're fresher like you're encouraged to go out, like go and enjoy it, enjoy the unique experience. Like I don't feel like I don't think I missed out on that side. Yeah. Like, and that's the thing with the boat club, with boat clubs, like it's such a, as you say, it's a big group, all like minded people basically all the same age. Like you kind of build your own, your own kind of friendships within that and it's, it's, and it's actually can be quite a supportive environment. Like you have people like the older guys will look out for you. Like the squads generally like got on well. Like you know, there weren't sort of huge rifts or whatever. Like it's a family basically. Without being like two cliche about it. Like it was a real, it was a real kind of like a home that especially like kids that had just turned up to uni from all different parts of the country didn't know anyone. Like that's the thing with uni, isn't it? It's like it's a melting pot. Like people that don't know each other come together and then you Just have to kind of like find your own friends. And the boat club, you go there, it's ready made, it's all there for you. You don't need to worry about like, who you're going to live with or like who you're going to go out with or who you're going to, like, who you're gonna sit with at lunch or whatever. Like, you know your mates are. And they'll all look out for you, which is a pretty like. Yeah, I mean, I didn't go to uni with anyone that I knew beforehand. Like I was kind of completely in there blind basically. So I met these friends instantly because I was running together, training with them, going out, like, you know, that's the, that's the group you find and it kind of supports you all the way through. And like those guys now are still.
You get like a scholarship or anything. Is that even a thing in the uk? I sound really stupid saying that because I know Brookes is big for that.
From what I've heard. I mean, it's nowhere near as big as.
Is that even the right term, the scholarship? Yeah, yeah.
No, those scholarships is nowhere near as much as like American uni, for example. I mean, I think I got like 1500 quid in my first year, which is not, you know, it's not nothing but like paying nine grand a year, student fees and all the rest of it. Like it's not exactly going to, you know, not going to sort you out and then like. Yeah, so you get like a little bit like that, but it's not. Yeah, it's not a huge amount.
Did you ever think about going to America to row?
I did, yeah. No, I, I thought about like Harvard and Brown, a couple other ones, but I never really committed to the, the SATs. And I was like, I, I felt like I wanted to stay because I always lived at home and I didn't, you know, go to board. I didn't board at school or whatever. Like. Yeah, I went to a private school but I didn't board. I was always like, it was all a day boy and I didn't particularly want to feel like I never saw my family at all. Yeah, it just wasn't. Wasn't ready to do that and I still, I don't think I missed out as a result of that.
Yeah, definitely. Interesting. And then like Henley Wise. Henley's obviously massive. I say, well, obviously bucks and then Henley. How soon? You won the pa, didn't you?
I think, yeah. Which is the student, like falls eventually.
Yeah. And when Was that, like. Was that the only Henny win? I said, yeah. Having only qualified for the first round, I've not been.
I've not much luck since then. Yeah, no, that was. That was my second year of uni, so 2014.
Yeah.
And that was awesome. That was like, those. Those guys are, you know, still really good friends. Try to see them as like, one of the guys. Tom, like, we went. They went to the Olympics together, like, in the eight, both in the crew, like. And that's awesome. That, like, known him for. What is it now, nine years or 10 years? And that's a love story. Yeah, well, no, he's great. He's. He's good fun. But it's like. Yeah. And we, like, obviously race together all through uni and then, like, in the Olympics together is awesome. So it's quite like. Yeah, that. That's like the kind of the friendships and they're like, the roots are put down there are still, like, just as strong today as they were then.
Yeah. To be fair, just on that, like, again, my rowing history is much less impressive. But, yeah, even as like a junior, I have one really good friend who I rode with when I was 16 and for a few years prior to that who is in the Marines now. I think he actually rode the Atlantic like, like eight weeks, whatever. And we're still really good friends, I feel like, because rowing, such an intense sport and I guess probably unlike anything else, you're physically in a boat together, obviously. Team sports. Team sports. But in rowing, you literally have to almost read someone's mind to row properly. I just feel like you have. Yeah. You just make good friends doing it. So some of my best friends, in fact, really, my only close friends that aren't now doing similar things are from rowing pretty much. That's like a small handful of them. But.
Yeah, no, that's a good point. Like, it's all like. Again, I'm using. Throwing on a lot of phrases, but it's all about trust ultimately, isn't it? It's like one of those, like, base things that you just have to know.
Especially in a fucking pair when you both. You both knew to sweep. Yeah.
Like, you gotta know that the guy you're with is not gonna fuck it up and throw. Like, just jump in or whatever. Like, you got it. Like, and it might seem stupid, but, like, that base layer of trust is so important. Yeah, you're right. Builds those friendships for life or whatever. Like, you know, people. Yeah, people care about that kind of thing.
Right. Yeah. Just continue on the. On the Uni side of things. And again, this is probably stuff that rowers want to know rather than people that aren't into rowing. But bear with me, like, what sort of eggs were you pulling in uni? I feel like ergs for people in the GB team is now, like, I don't know, you're not allowed to speak about it and.
But in the past, yeah, I'm not. It's not a. Not too, too secret, like. No, no. Like, I. I'm not. Like, even though I'm a big guy, I'm not the kind of. Some kind of freak. Like, you know, there's guys a lot stronger than me. I was one of the stronger ones at uni and just by virtue of being generally one of the. Yeah, one of the. As I got through uni, I got. Got better and got. Got to kind of the top of the pile at uni, so I was one of the stronger ones there. So I was like 557, 558 on the 2k at. At you by the time I left uni, which was like, yeah, it was a good, good score for uni, but it wasn't, you know, like, it's like all support, everything always moves on. So, like, nowadays, like, that's like a good score to have a uni, but you get guys that way faster than that nowadays. But, yeah, we had a couple of guys who were around six minutes or below. Plenty of guys. You didn't need to be that strong. Like, we had, like, lightweights, like a smaller category of people in the cruise who wouldn't be as strong as that. And like, you just kind of mold it all together.
Ergs don't float, as they say.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, that's the thing with rowing. Like, I think people look at it and go, oh, they all look the same. They all just like. You'll just pull really hard. It's actually like a rowing team if you think about it. It's like a rugby team. You've got to have a person for every job. You've got to have your locks, you've got to have what you second row props. You've got to have a winger, you've got to have a flanker. Like, you've got to have a scrum half. You've got to have people doing every job. And that's why I think rowing is so special, especially like the bigger boat, like an eight. Like, it's the same job. Like, people at either end are the wingers and the scrum half and the people in the middle of the props and that kind of thing. That's how to think about it.
Yeah, very true. Yeah. Because I remember in. In the lead shed, as we were saying before we started recording, that was the satirical name we gave. Yeah. Our Henley campaign, which is what, I guess like February 2016 to whenever Henley wants. July 2016. But yeah, I remember coming in, I think I pulled like a 650 erg. So I was unfit. But even me, what did I pull? I think I pulled a 611 was Henley time. So not amazing. But that's like four months of just properly training because that was the first time I'd like committed. I probably wasn't. I don't know. It felt like full time pretty much. It obviously wasn't, but I was disinterested in the unit at this point and yeah, obviously think you just. You can make a lot of progress pretty quick. But I remember Ryan, who's obviously now not in the GB team yet, but we'll get onto that. Yeah, I think he put like a 601. But he was the. You getting a single and he'd fall in. So, yeah, it's kind of funny. Exact flight, definitely. But for me, like rowing, going sweep. The first time at uni, for me I was pretty bad because I'd come from sculling for years, which I still think I'd be better at if I got on a boat now, but I don't know if that'll ever happen again.
Yeah. And you gotta, like, there's interesting between the two. Two disciplines, like, it's easier to pick up. I think sweeping. What I do now is easier because I sculled first and that gives you the skills and the knowledge to do it. But it's like I said, you know, like 6 11. That's perfectly good score for a uni rower. Like, you know, you'd be. One of. You beat it. You know, you'd be decent. Like, that'd be fine.
That's probably the fastest I have to go.
It's just like, I guess with. With your situation, it's like you just didn't have a big enough setup. Like, if you've been in a big setup, then you would have probably done quite well.
Yeah, I didn't row at uniform long. It was actually like six months or whatever. And then I think, yeah, at that point my entrepreneurial career started to do things and I ended up leaving, so wasn't for me. But yeah, to be fair, when I was like 16, I remember getting pushed in to do GB France, which is Obviously, like the, the intro to GB rowing as a junior, but not at the world's level. And then I remember my parents being like, you're not allowed to go because you've got school. And then my coach, Phil Jens, legend. A lot of people probably know him. I think he's an honorary Leander member. He was a scary bloke.
Oh, yeah.
Was really pissed off and then. Yeah. Anyway, didn't end up going down that route, but. Did you ever do GB Junior?
I did, yeah. GB France. Yeah. Yeah, did that. Fun. Yeah. That was my first, like, representative race for, like, that's, that's, as you say, that's the intro race for like the youngest category that you kind of get to say that you're GB for. It's just like a, just like a friendly match against what? Race against French cruise I did in Nantes in Northern France, which was really nice. Like, it was great, like start into rowing. I was in the single. I was in the spare single, actually. So I wasn't. I wasn't one of the best guys in the team, but it was awesome to go and race and I get to.
Did you go to Junior World as well? Oh, no.
Two years later we did, yeah.
Yeah.
In the quad. Yeah. In Bulgaria.
Yeah. Because isn't it set up so, like, it's some weird shit with birthdays. Well, if you have to be. If you want to have a two year chance.
Yeah, basically, if you're.
You have to be after January, is it. It's calendar year rather than school year.
Yeah, yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah. So you can be in your final school year, but ineligible to race in a junior event that year.
It's stupid, but yeah. Just coming back to uni then. So obviously, essentially, what was the transition then from uni to. Because correct me if I'm wrong here, like, my understanding of the current GB system at least is, you know, if you're good at uni, you'll then, you know, go and trial at Leander, whether you have to do that or not, and then get into the cabin Caversham setup, which is like the full time Olympians, effectively.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Yeah, so. So it kind of varies. So like I was talking about earlier about. It's about timing. So for me, like, I'd got to the level. So by my final year at uni, I'd won a medal in my kind of my, my age group, which was under 23, which is like the next level from between junior and then the Olympic team. So I'd won a medal in my age group in my final year of uni, and it's like, okay, well, like you've reached a good enough level. And that was in the Olympic year, in 2016 in Rio. So I didn't race the Olympics, but I was kind of like the, one of the, one of the next guys kind of below the Olympic team at that. So, yeah, I didn't, I wasn't good enough to be in the Olympic team, but I was kind of there kind of waiting. And that coincided with like finishing my last year of uni. So normally what happens after each Olympics, you get guys who are like, you know, they win their medals and I'm done. Like, they step away and I'm going to retire and move on. And you know, with us that year, there were quite a few guys that were like, we've done our time. Quite a few of them were on their third Olympics, some of them on their fourth Olympics. You think about that. That's like fucking 16 years of graft, like full time. That's like, that's what some guys were.
On by that fairly calloused hands by that point.
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, quite a few guys like, yeah, I'm done. And that opens up a gap then for the squad just to kind of be refilled. And that was how I got straight in at that point. Which is, you know, like, that doesn't happen very often, but it's more because it rarely, it rarely kind of lines up timing wise. Like it's just, it's just luck that basically like you're born the right year, you finish uni at the right time just before an Olympics, and you're good enough to go into the team, like that's all kind of aligns and gets in the same place. So yeah, like some people, you can get in, you can be good enough to get into the team when you're at uni, but for most people, you need to kind of got to that like 22, 23ish kind of age to be like only like really good enough to go in. And then as you say, a lot of people go through the stage where they kind of, they do uni and they finish and it's not their time, like the team is still full, like they're not good enough to get in or whatever and that the team hasn't kind of cleared itself out. And then they go to like a full time training center of some sort, either Leander or Oxford, Brooks or Mulesy, like all these other kind of clubs or places around the uk and then you kind of. You basically kind of wait. You're kind of in, like, suspended animation, just, like, waiting for a spot to come up in the team. And then you kind of. If you're good enough, then they then move you in.
And so if I decide I wanted to quit what I'm doing right now, hypothetically, and, like, I'm gonna go, firstly, can I just join, like, Leander straight off the bat, or do I have to effectively trial to get into Leander before then? Trialing for the GB team.
Yeah, yeah. So.
Because there's a lot of people that. Like my friend Ryan, who mentioned before, who's kind of in that pool.
Yeah. So, okay, for the basis of argument, let's say you're. You're a good enough rower and that you, you know, you haven't. Let's say you haven't done anything beforehand, but you just happen to be incredible and, like, you're good enough to get in. And it's like, in that situation, you have to turn up to a club and they'll be like, right, well, what have you done in the sport? And you're like, well, I'm just good. Like, I'm good enough. Like, trust me. Okay, well, fine, go and sit on this, ergo, for 2K and let's see what you can do. And if your score is good enough or they see you out in a boat and you. And you're going fast enough, or like, generally, if you're fulfilling physical parameters, let's say you've just been lifting weights since uni and you were fucking strong and fit, but you hadn't done much rowing. You hadn't done, like, you hadn't been racing, hadn't won lots of races or whatever, but you were just, like, you were just good enough. If you turned up and you pulled some good enough numbers, the coaches at a club like Leander or whatever will be like, yeah, that guy, we want him.
Yeah.
And if you can fulfill certain parameters, then they'll bring you in more often than not. Like, you'll be known to these clubs beforehand and they'll be kind of keeping their eyes out, and they'll know that, right, this guy wants to make it at some point, but he's not strong enough yet or he's not finished uni yet or whatever. And there'll be people that turn up to these kind of clubs in September. Time being like, right, I want to make it. I want to get in the GB team. And, yeah, there'll be like a trials process, essentially, where they're like, okay, well, sign on for the first two months, we'll do some trials, do some training, do some testing. Are you. Are you good enough? Okay, if you are right, then we'll keep you on for the rest of the year. But most places won't let you just kind of like, rock up and be like, right, I'm here training for the GB team. If you're not good enough.
So if I then got into Leander, hypothetically, am I then, I assume, well, am I then trialing again to get into the Caversham serp, which is kind of the main team?
Yeah. Yeah. So once you're like. Once you're rowing at a club and you. You're in a club and you're in a club environment, let's say you're sculling, let's say you're in a single and you're like, I'm gonna make the sculling team. You can, then you can. Anyone can trial for gb. Anyone can turn up to the first trial in, which is in November time, which is like, yeah, an open trial and you just pay your entry fee.
So the Boston one.
That's the Boston and Lincolnshire. Yeah, Great place that. Yeah. Pay your entry fee and you turn up and you have to do a 2000 meter ergo test and you have to do a 5000 meter water trial in the single. Just erased, a time trial, basically. And if you smash both of those, then you go through to the next stage and the next stage and next stage and it is literally like, if you were good enough, if you could beat everyone, then you'd be in.
Yeah.
Like, if you win ultimately, like, if you win those trials and you do.
Really well, the FA cup for rounds, you'll get in.
Yeah, yeah. Like, there's nothing like actually stopping you from winning it. Like, if you're good enough, then you win those trials and you'll be quick on the ergo and all the rest of it. So it is, in theory, completely like the ball's in your court in that situation where, like, realistically, it doesn't really happen like that. No one kind of comes out of nowhere and suddenly wins everything. It's more like people will be like, you'll be in. You have been in the sport for a while because it's one of those things you can't, like, you can't just jump at it and suddenly be good. You have to work at it. Most of the time there are people that are naturally talented, but, like, you put the most physiological, as you say, like, the most physiologically talented guy in a boat straight away and he'll fall in. So it's, you know, it takes work and takes perseverance, but like, in theory you can just turn up, win everything and then they'll be like, right, well, you're good enough. Like, get in. So.
Yeah. And then just on that then, Because I've noticed you still wear Newcastle in like a Henley race. Well, obviously for those watching that don't know Henley is. Everyone represents their clubs. You know, it's like, I guess it's like being a, I don't know, Champions League as opposed to the World cup, isn't it? So you represent your club. So did you never joined, like, Leander or anything?
No, I didn't because I, as I say, I literally went straight from uni to, to the team, so I didn't need to kind of do that kind of intermediate phase in between. So. And for me, like, as I was saying, I had a great time at uni. Like, it built me as an athlete and as a rower, as a person. And it's like, I like, I like representing that still. Like, I still have loyalty there. And it also, it's good for me to represent the uni because then it reminds the, the team, the, the GB team that actually Newcastle is a good program. And it also. So what the GB team does is it will fund unis that do well. It will give them money and be like, we're going to give you money for extra facilities and like, just help you keep developing athletes for the team structure. So if I just, if I wear my Lycra and I'm like, well, I'm from here. This place is the place that built me. And they go, okay, right, let's just, you know, we realize that place is good and we'll keep helping the mountains and keeping the place going well. So that, that's why, why I do that. And it means a lot to me to do that.
Yeah, definitely. I'm yet to see a Northumbria Lycra in the Grand Challenge cup, but, yeah, we'll see. That brings me on to another question then. So, like, one of the things that, you know, it's just the fact of sport is there's like barely any money in rowing obviously, compared to especially, well, my limited knowledge for athletes compared to obviously stuff like, you know, like you said before, you certainly don't become a rower for the money. But like, and I should probably have asked Ryan this the other week, I think I did when I saw him. So, like, if, say I'M rowing at Leander and I'm training like full time, effectively six to eight hours a day, whatever it is. And I'm trying to get into the Olympic team, which is probably most people. Well, there's probably more. Is there more people in that, in that situation than there are in the main team for a start?
Yeah, I mean there's a whole like probably, you know, one, what, at least one to two teams worth of people waiting outside for a slot, a chance to go in. Yeah, yeah. So there's a, there's. And it's also even more so nowadays I think compared to what it used to be. There's. Yeah, there's plenty of people who are kind of waiting to jump in.
Yeah.
And it's like, it means it's a good thing for the team because it means that there's constant pressure from the outside and you like, you constantly have to be on your a game day to day to make sure that you're not only you keeping up your teammates, but you're also keeping ahead of people that aren't in the building yet. And yeah, when you talk about like funding, like it's a pretty. That's why like I say, you don't do it for the money because you have to self fund yourself. Like as I say, luckily I didn't have to do that step of basically, you know, I'd have had to get a job or some sort of part time job or whatever if it hadn't been the right time. But yeah, if you're, if it's not your time yet, in terms of when the team has a space open and you're sitting at Leander, you have to, yeah, you have to get like a, you know, nannying job or. Yeah, one of the guys did Butter in the buff basically.
People. Yeah, people in Leander don't, athletes in Liana don't get paid until they're in the, until they're in the Cavendish.
So there are levels, there are levels of funding below being in the team. So there's like a, it's like a development grant or whatever. It's like a. Yeah. So like a couple of people at Leander will be funded to a certain level, but it won't be much. Like it's normally not enough to live on decently. Like it's, it's, it's a very tough existence.
Yeah, I think Ryan was telling me this like six grand a year or something. Yeah, it's not going to work.
It's very, it's very tough. Like I'm not gonna pretend that, that I know how hard that is to be. Like training full time like that and having like, especially doing a job as well on the side. Yeah, like that's, that's really tough. And I was lucky. I know how to do it, but it's, it's not easy.
Does that change massively then financially when you get into the, the main team and then, and then within that, is there different levels?
Yeah. So I mean I was, when I first joined the team, I was on for the hours I was doing. I was on below minimum wage for my first year. Yeah. Like full time rowing and I was lucky that I was out of, managed to find myself a very cheap room. But yeah, like it's not, not much at all when you're, when you've joined fresh in the team, you don't have any international success behind you. Like, you know, once, once you get into the team and you start making crews and you start winning medals and stuff, then, then your funding does get bumped up and like, you know, is.
That on like an actual basis, like you know, X, Y, Z medals equals this or is it on, you know, funding's discretion?
No, no, it's literally like if you get a medal at a World Championship, you go up to the top bracket which is, you know, it's decent but it's not exactly millions. You know, it's really not, not. You're not gonna, not gonna complain. It's, it's do fine, but it's not, it's not a lot of money compared to what people my age just starting out in the world? Well, I'm 27 now. Like people my age and the start of their careers are like 21, 22. Like I'm earning far less than they will be now. And you know, that's just, that's just how it is. But then I don't, I don't see that as a, as too much of a negative thing because, because it's like, well, I'm, I'm getting to do what I love, so I don't really worry about that too much. I mean there is, there is a. You know, I'm not, yes, I'm not going to complain about it, but it's like there's very little kind of chance for once you won a medal, there's very little chance for job progression. There's no, there's no bonuses or anything like that. No like performance bonuses. And once you won a. So yeah, I won a World championship medal four years ago and actually winning an Olympic medal Doesn't bump you up any higher. You're kind of still there at the same point. So it's just. Here's what it is.
Yeah. And then coming on to the Olympics then, so. Well, I guess firstly, so have you. You've been in the Olympic squad, the main teams for what, four years, like you said?
Five years.
Yeah, five years. And that's been full time the whole time?
Yep.
Yeah. Geez, that's a lot of training.
Yeah, it's a lot of eggs.
And are you fully based out of Caversham? I think it says Cavendish early. It's Caversham, isn't it? Yeah. And where is that? That's like Reading.
Yeah, it's just as our reading.
Yeah. So where do people live in that?
Like, I live in Henley.
Everyone lives in Henley.
Yeah. And that's where some people live in Reading. Some people live in Oxford. Like, bit around, but yeah, I was. I've always been based in Henley since I've been down in the. In the team. And I mean, you know, again, beautiful, beautiful place. Not going to complain. Like it's. And somehow it's actually got pretty cheap rent now. You wouldn't thought. You would have thought it. But.
Yeah, Ryan sent me his room the other day. It was like, yeah, what he's paying. I was like, me, I'm getting scammed.
Like, buying a house there is as expensive as around here.
Yeah.
But renting, there's no, there's no rental market because there are no students there. It's not a student town at all. So they're desperate to fill rooms.
Very true. That's interesting.
So it's actually a little bit of like a captive market there.
Yeah. And then coming on to. I guess you've got your medal from Tokyo with us. Do you want to show that to the, I guess people if they're listening to this? Most people watch it, but yeah, maybe just hold up. It's a heavy metal. I was just saying it. It beats my 2012 National Schools Gold by some level.
It's. It's. Well, yeah, it's nice.
Do you have that like a safe or something?
No.
Or do you just not think anyone wants to steal it? It's more like valuable. Yeah.
Like it's just for the mic in front of you. Yeah. One of the, the things about it, it's like the big things about the Tokyo metals is that it's made. The. The inside of the metal is made from phone bits, phone, like recycled phone cables and like.
Oh, really?
Chips and stuff like that. So the metal yeah. So the inside of it is phone parts, and it's got a bronze paint or layer in on the outside. So it's only worth, like, in terms of bits, I don't know, a couple hundred quid, something like that. Even a gold one. But it's obviously. That's not why. It's not what. You get it.
Yeah, exactly. So it's not got Covid masks inside or something. Yeah. So I guess. Jesus. A lot. We could talk about the Olympic stuff, I suppose, firstly, like, how much do you think, like, how much did Covid affect things? Because obviously it was delayed by a year and I'm not an athlete by any means, but I mean. Yeah, I can imagine that was distressing.
Yeah, well, you know, it was a difficult time at that point. I mean, obviously, you know, I won't talk about how difficult it was for me, but it was difficult for everyone back then, wasn't it? So, yeah, that was, let me think, end of February, early March 2020 was when we were. Yeah. So at that point, we were finishing up our selections for the Olympic team. So we'd done four years, like, like, you know, smacking each other around inside the team and. Yeah, done four years of that. And then it's like, finally got to the point where. Right. Like, we know roughly who's going to be in the team now. Like, we did our last set trials early, early March, and I was like, right, okay, these people are going to be in the Olympic team. And literally, like, we had a meeting on the steps outside our training center where they're like, right, this is the Olympic team. And by the way, the training center shuts tomorrow, so go home and just await further instructions. Like, take an Erg with you, like a rowing machine. Go home and like, we'll. We'll let you know what's next. And that was on March 27th. And then the lockdown happened on March 29th. Whatever. It was something like that. So, you know, from that, it was like, pretty obvious that it was all going to be over. You know, like, you know, we thought initially that it's okay. Well, the Games might be. That'll be. That'll be fine. Like, it'll work. Like, they'll be able to run it that summer. Like, it'll be all right. Like, you know, we weren't like this lockdown only last couple of weeks. Everyone thought that.
Yeah, I can't remember that.
You know, they were like, it'll be fine. It'll be right. And especially in that situation, you're an athlete and you're like, I've literally trained the last four years. Every waking moment has been focused on this moment and now an external force has just taken it right away from me. There's nothing I can do. Like, I just have to sit there and watch my dreams evaporate. Essentially, that was the emotion of the moment. And, you know, then we found out, you know, what was a week or two later, they were like, right, Games is off. It's not. Definitely not happening this summer. And everyone's like, fuck, Right. Well, we, we kind of thought, but we didn't know. But now it's certain it's not happening. And then it's like, right, it will happen, but a year later. And then there's that little, like that lifeline kind of dangled out in front of you and you're like, okay, well, it's. It is still there. Like, they say it's still going to be there. And, like, they can't possibly, like, cancel again. Oh, no. Like, it'll work out, it'll be fine. And that's the kind of delusion you put yourself in. That's the position yet. The position you have to put. Yeah, you headspace in. You're like, well, it's fine, like, it'll be all right, like. And you're used to kind of dealing with tough situations as an athlete. Like this kind of like, you know, competition gets cancelled, you get injured, like, stuff goes wrong and you're in the mindset. You just have to deal with it and move on. And, like, always look forward and push forward. And that was the same thing we had to do with the Olympics because it was like, well, they say it's going to still be there, so I have to be ready when it does, when it happens. And that's what we did from March until July, just, you know, at home, lucky enough. My parents had a garage. I just sat in the garage on the row machine. Had a.
Was it like, as hard, training wise? Was it a similar regime? Obviously not on the water. Yeah.
Yeah, it was fucking hard. It was like, probably total. Not as many miles as we would normally do because it was all on the row machine. And that's quite a heavy load to be doing that much mileage on the rowing machine. But it was still like, a lot. Like, I'll be right. I'd be on the Erg, you know, an hour or two a day. I had. Luckily I had some weights, so I had some dumbbells and I had a bar. And then I was lucky enough to live out in the countryside so I could run and cycle. Like, so. And that's what I did like two or three times a day. I'd be training all the while. I was like helping my parents, like with my brother's like, homeschooling and that kind of thing. So like we're doing that in between, like everyone's locked down experience like that. But for me it was like, well, luckily I had. I think a lot of people probably felt like a bit aimless maybe in lockdown. Obviously boredom was the biggest thing, wasn't it? For a lot of people it's like, what do I do? Like, okay, I can work or study or whatever, but like, you know, boredom will be one of the biggest things. But for me, luckily there was actually never a dull moment because I was like, I was either training or like helping out with homeschooling or like helping my mom cook or like just doing stuff around the house or whatever. It's like it actually was quite busy for me, lockdown, because I had that, you know, I had that goal out in front of me, which. Which definitely helped kind of keep sanity, basically.
Yeah. And was it just effectually like an extended winter training period then? Because obviously there was no summer Olympics in 2020.
Yeah, yeah, no, we just.
Was there like any break or was it literally just a longer winter period?
Yeah, well, that's the thing. We carried on straight away from when the lockdown happened where we were like in prime peak condition, ready to like start the racing season of the year. And then like, right, well, just get back on the. Ergo, just treat this like as you. Literally longer winter. We'll finish in July, went all the way through to then. And then we had like a six week break over the summer. So we got a proper summer, which is good. Like I hadn't had. And that period as well. That was the size I lived my parents from March until August when I went back to the training center. And that's the longest I've been at home for 10 years. Almost like since I left. Yes, home for uni. Like I'd been away, I'd been at uni, had been living in the training center, whatever. Like I hadn't been home that long for such a long time. And no, it was. We were straight back in. Yeah, yeah, like straight back into that training all through that period and then got a decent summer at the end of it. Well, as much as you could have that summer.
And were you literally not on the water for months? Nope.
That's the longest time I hadn't been on the water since I started rowing, I think.
And when did you go back on the water for the first time?
I luckily managed to get on a single at my local club when it was allowed, like the end of July, maybe August. So yeah, I mean it's like five months. But we started training out the training center again. Like September.
Yeah. Cuz like different restrictions and so on.
Yeah, yeah.
Jeez, that's mad. And then was it by default gonna be the same team the next year or was it like, well, there's another years that people might get better or worse?
Well, this is the thing. Like they, they. Because we put so much effort into selecting the team first time round, they were like, well, we think this is the right one. And everyone had largely maintained form, like stayed uninjured. Like everyone was still kind of like in fighting shape by the time we got back to September. That had been selected in the first place.
Yeah.
So like, well, okay, this is the team that we're gonna, we think we're gonna take, but it's not, you know, we knew it wasn't a sort of fully, fully selected. They were like, well, this is what we think it's going to be. But it's now up to you to kind of hold your position basically and keep getting better because now we've got the Olympics is actually going to be there. And actually like there are. There were chances people outside to get in from like, well, people that hadn't been initially selected. So one of the guys actually ended up racing with me in the summer. He had like a, like some kind of pretty nasty shoulder injury at the time of the initial selection. So he was. That he wasn't going to be in this guy Josh. And then when he. By the time the Olympics rolled around again, he'd actually got better, got fit and strong and they were like, yeah, you're in. You're good enough. So he was in the eight with me.
Yeah.
This summer. So it was like, you know, that some one or two things did change, but the crews were largely the same from that first selection.
I suppose one thing that did change was head coach, which those in the rowing world obviously know Jurgen Grobler of what, how many years in the GB team? 20 plus years.
Yeah, something like that.
Yeah. Was that a shock?
Yeah, yeah, no, that was, that was tough because he was actually really good with us with our eight, especially because he was our coach. Like we had Zoom Call. Well, yeah, it was like a WhatsApp Google Hangout. I think it was twice a week.
Yeah.
We'd all, like, all. Well, all 10 of us, because there's the nine of us in the crew, including the cox and then Jurgen, the coach. We're going, like, get into a quiet part of our house and just like, sit down a bit. Right, how's training going? Like, what are you doing today? And you're going to kind of sketch out the plan for the next few days, next few weeks. And we kind of stayed in contact quite well. Like, we had a. We made a WhatsApp group with all nine of us on it, and each day we'd send in our scores. Well, we've done like a screenshot of our ergs and that kind of thing. Just keep everyone honest because if, like, you know, you knew that by, you know, 9:30, several guys who had got up early in the morning would have, like, banged out their ergs and they're already on the whatsapping. I mean, this guy's, he's, you know, he's gone, well today. Like, you know, I've got it. I was always a later riser, so I was like, well, I've got to actually get on and crack on with it. But that kind of kept you. Kept you on it because you're like, well, everyone, like, everyone's training here. Everyone still sees the goal is in the same spot and you've got to, you know, we all. We all want to do our best. We all want to be the best we can. And we've been given this lifeline, this second chance. And Jurgen was key in kind of helping that mindset and he was, yeah, he was very good with us. Managing us through lockdown.
Was the eight, the primary boat for that Olympia, because obviously historically it's been the four.
Yeah. I mean, they didn't kind of select.
Is it not done like that as such?
No, they basically, they. We, the. The four that ended up racing as the coxswas four were always the fastest internally in. In the four. They weren't always the fastest pairs. It was a bit. It was a bit closer at that point. But they always won. Yeah, pretty much whenever they went in a four. And they'd been fast the year before as well. And yeah, that, like, you know, a lot of us. A lot of us wanted to do the eight and then some guys wanted to do the four, but it was like, you know, it was basically, I think Jurgen felt that we could maybe win two medals and maybe win two gold medals.
Oh, yeah. Previously that been the case, hadn't it?
Yeah. And. And it was like, well, you're like, we know, we know got a fast four here and, you know, they'd actually been doing better than the eight had been the previous years. And the eight needed all the help it could get to kind of make sure it was. Make sure it was on the podium. So it wasn't. It wasn't such a case that there was like a top boat or whatever. Like, you know, we kind of. We put the people where we thought they. We thought they'd be most effective.
Yeah. And then coach, coaching changing with Jurgen Lehman. Do you think that, like, did that have a big effect? Was it. Was it like, big, good effect? Well, not good effects, but, you know, was it. Was it really negative or was it just. Because obviously there was a lot of stuff that came out after the Olympics, controversy, whatever, blah, blah, blah, which we can maybe get onto or not. But, yeah, people saying that had that not changed, maybe GB would have got a gold or et cetera, et cetera.
I think it's kind of. It's difficult because it's bigger. It's bigger than that. It's like, ultimately the coach isn't the one that gets the medal. Yeah, like, the coach. Isn't that, like, the moment. Plenty of coaches have said it to me before. At the moment they push you off the dock, like, it's up to you. And so we can kind of sit here and go, oh, wow, if only we'd had a different coach, it would have been better, or if only we kept whatever. Like, I don't. I don't kind of buy that as much, like. And I think Jurgen would say that as well. Like, it's. I mean, I don't put words in his mouth, but it's like it was up to us to win the medals and when we didn't win the medals, we wanted to. So I don't. I don't think it's. I don't think you can really say that. You know, if we had a different goal, if we'd done, like, something as specific as that differently, it would have made the difference because there are so many things that go into making a crew go fast. Like. Yeah, you know, for us, like, the biggest thing, you know, we weren't allowed on the water for six months because of coronavirus, whereas the New Zealanders got to row basically all year round and, like, they were a very good crew anyway. But, like, the stuff like that, where it's sort of, you know, that's going to be possibly more important or a myriad of other things, like just, you know, like how you Kind of believe and trust in your, in your system. How you like specific things like how, how you manage like travel, especially to the 12 hour time difference or whatever it is. 11 hour time difference, Tokyo, how you manage the heat, like what equipment you use, how you're feeling on the day, ultimately that, that can change completely. Like if you, if you have a shit night's sleep the night before and you're not in your best headspace or something like, and you just muck something up slightly like that can make as much difference. Like you know, you catching a crash.
Terrifying.
Really will make more. Yeah, like you like, like you know, catching your blade on the water and fucking up the rhythm for 200 meters, that will make more difference than any coach could ever could. Like, and that's just one person in an eight can do that. So you know that there's, there's so many things that affect it and it's, I don't, I don't like to kind of pinpoint that specifically and go, that's the reason we didn't do well enough. Because I just don't think, I think it's more complicated than that.
Yeah, definitely. And like, yeah, obviously, like I was saying, there was loads of saying GB didn't perform, etc. Etc. Obviously, to any normal person, the Olympic medal is insane. Do you think bronze was, was disappointing or not? Like, so pretty brutal question.
No, no, it's, I think it's entirely fair.
So what was one second between.
Yeah, no, no, like that's ultimately like you said it, like that's the second like that sport, like it's a tiny, it's a tiny margin but within that there is so much. You kind of look at it afterwards and go, what could I have done? Like, could I have done? Like, could I have been stronger? Could I have been lighter? Could I have been better? Right? Could I have done, could I have slept better the night before? Could I have eaten better in the lead up to it? Like there's so many little things that go into making that and I've always felt that you should be kind of. I'm quite, quite a positive person in general. Like it's always the glass half full, you know, so, so for me, coming away with anything was always going to be like, obviously it was all my goal was to win a gold medal. That's why I went there. That's what I wanted. Like that was. Every stroke I was taking was like, I'm doing this to win and that's fine in the moment. And that's how you have to approach it, you have to go into it to win. But then the moment you cross the line, there's nothing more you can do. Like, it's done, it's finished, it's over. Like, you have no impact now on it whatsoever. And you have to kind of pick up the pieces and, and look at what's left and what's left over. And in that initial moment, I was like, yeah, like, that. It's all gone wrong. Like, we. It, like, it's not, it's not, it's not worked out. It's not fairy tale ending that I wanted. But then at that point, like, how do you react to that? You've got to pick yourself up and you've got to again, like. Like with everything, with life, sport in general, you've got to move forward. And it's like, well, if I sit here and go, that wasn't good enough, I'm therefore going to be miserable about it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna think it's. That's not gonna help. Whereas if I look at it and I take the positives and I go, and the Olympics especially, like, you looked at it and it was like, you know, there are people, there were winners at the Olympics, and there were people that, there were people who got medals and there were people that went home with nothing. And most people go home with nothing. And that's what one of our coaches said to us before, is like, 90% of people, 95% of people turn up to the Olympics, get nothing from it. They get the kit, they get the experience. Like, they have a fun time, and that's for a lot of them. That's why they're there. Like, plenty of people who are at the Olympics were there for the experience because whatever, they're able to qualify, like, last minute or like, the country's just not competitive, but they have spots or whatever. Like, a lot of people at the Olympics are never going to win medals. It's brutal, but it's true. And, you know, if you are lucky enough be one of those people that firstly gets to be good enough to go to the Olympics and then gets to win a medal on top of that, you have to take that as a positive. You have to look at it and go, like, yeah, that's incredible. And feel. And feel grateful for coming home with anything, but that's not to then say that you look at it and go, it's fine to lose, like, or it's. It's like, oh, I'm happy. I'm like, I'm not happy that I lost. I can take the positives from bringing something home, but I then have to look at it and go, well, what am I going to. How am I going to use that to make me better?
Yeah.
And that's what I have to do. I have to use the good things I got from it and I have to learn from the mistakes I made along the way to make myself better and if I make it again, do better next time. And that's how I think how you have to look at it.
Yeah. Yeah. Good answer. Do you think the whole Covid situation, obviously, like, I mean for a site was less televised on TV than it normally would things. I don't know how exactly it was there, but did it feel like, for example, there was no crowd in the opening ceremony, Is that right? Or like things like that?
Yeah.
Did it feel like like an anti climax in that respect or were you kind of. Because it'd been covered for a year and you know, the whole world's experience, elements of that. But obviously especially as an athlete going to the Olympics, it's like the first Olympics is Covid.
Yeah.
Did you think that frustrating?
Yes and no. Because you like, ultimately like the village is fucking cool. Like it's awesome. Like it's incredible experience. Like it's this. The Tokyo village was this kind of almost like island sort of in the middle of the, like basically middle of Tokyo Bay with these kind of these like 10 tower blocks on it with all the athletes in it. And it was quite cool because they actually like they parked up all the like the coast guard ships round like in like a blockade around the island to stop people trying to get in. Because you had like boats circling around trying to get like trying to get in, get pictures or trying to meet the athletes or whatever. So it felt like this kind of this weird colony like cut off from the outside world. But there were constant, like there was a. There was the TVs and all the flats and there were these constant. One of the, like There were about 10 channels of constant live stream cameras just pointed at the village or like pointed at locations in Tokyo. And like you can see that there's a camera like over there at the other side of the village just like looking in on us. And you really felt like there's you under the sky spotlight in this, in this tiny little like small island with 10,000 people on it just like milling around all like just going all over the shop. So like the village was a really cool environment and that was quite, to be honest, that was probably quite similar to what it would have been anyway. Like, okay, people wearing masks, but ultimately.
They do that over there anyway, don't they?
Yeah, well, a lot of the time, yeah. Transport and stuff. But like the village was very similar and that was the bit I ultimately experienced which was cool. The opening ceremony as a crew we never would have gone to anyway because it was too close to our race.
Oh, true.
So Mo did go because he was the flag bearer, which we had it. We sat down and he got told that team GB wanted him to be the flag bearer. And he was like, guys, I don't like, you know, what do you think? Because it was. They moved our race because there was a typhoon warning. Actually they moved it to the next day.
I remember that I was watching it, so.
And he was like, look like, you know, the race has moved or whatever. Like, we're going to race tomorrow, what should I do? And he, you know, he, he was like, well, I'm going to get to carry the flag for our country, so I would like to do it. And we were like, 100%, you should do it. Like, we want, we want you to be out there. Like, that's a once in a lifetime experience.
Yeah.
And yeah, you know, he went and did it, which was awesome. Like, it was amazing to see rowing represented, you know, in the flag as Mo is the flag bearer. And that was really cool. But we, the rest of the crew would have never gone to that anyway because, yeah, it was, it was too close. So, you know, that's something that would have been awesome to like troop around the round the, you know, the Olympic stadium for a proper opening ceremony. But unfortunately, actually we just wouldn't have got to do it anyway, regardless of COVID And then the big thing, the one thing that is sad is that obviously we did our race and then we had to leave Japan the next day, 8am the next morning we were on the plane back home.
Was that because of COVID Yeah, because.
The Japanese government were like, we don't want any. Pretty much the vibe was like, you're here for as short time as possible. Once you're done, get out. We don't need. Because there's a reason to it because it's like you've got all these people in a really close environment. In the village, the more densely packed we have it, the more likely there is to be a Covid outbreak and that destroys the whole thing. So if we can thin out the athletes as quickly as possible, then it makes the, it gives a better chance for the whole event to go ahead. So there was logic to it, I understand why. But it meant that we then obviously couldn't hang around and just kind of like, have the normal. What you would have had at the Games, which would have been like a massive party for a week afterwards, or like going, like, into the other stadiums and watching everyone, all that kind of thing. Like, that would have been really cool. And I definitely do feel sad that we missed out on that. But, you know, again, it is what it is. Like, you can't. Can't change it. Like, it's just. Just what happened.
Yeah. And is it true there was cardboard beds in the Olympic village? Yeah, yeah, the beds are cardboard. I remember seeing that somewhere.
Yeah. I managed to break.
Is it to prevent actually shagging each other?
No, that's not unfortunate. I know.
Is that just complete meme?
Yeah, there was a meme. There were quite a few. What was like TikTok videos or Instagram videos about it? No, it wasn't.
It is a smaller budget. Then what's the reason?
It was about recycling. So the whole thing about the flats. So it was. Yeah, the tower blocks we were in were going to be sold as, like, boutique harborside flats. Like, you know, they're pretty cool. But the whole thing was that they were all, like. They were smaller than you would sell, like, a conventional, like, flat because they just had, like, plasterboard walls and that kind of thing to make more flats so you could fit more people in. And the beds were cardboard so that they could just chuck all the furniture out the windows when once everyone moved out and just strip out all the inside and redo it. So it's quite boring. I know, but, like, that was the reason for it. But it was nice to think that it stopped people shagging. I don't think it did stop people shagging. I think quite a few people got around it. But it's no, like, there was a fun thing to be. Literally everyone asked me, oh, is that the reason?
Unfortunately, yeah. I couldn't say that's true or not, but, yeah, I saw it on TikTok or something. And then. These are probably, like, really fucking cliche questions, but I feel like people will be interested. Like, obviously you've done loads of races, probably hundreds of races prior to the Olympics, maybe not in gb, but in your life. Like when you get to an Olympic final, are you shitting yourself or is it just another day in the office, effectively? Because it is your office being in a boat.
No, you're absolutely shitting yourself. Like, I, you know, I make no, like, bones about that. Like, yeah, 100%. Like, yeah, that's the most nervous I've ever been. And it's more so, like, in the days leading up to it, like in the immediate moment of, like, before the race. Yes, I was very, very nervous. But it was more the worst bit was waiting for it, like the day.
Or two before start watching, like an Athens 2004 YouTube montage, just getting, like, worked up.
Like, just. Just waiting because they own all. Like, all you want is for it just to. To happen. And you're like, you beat. To be able to, like, attack it and do everything and do. Do your job, but you can't because there's a set time when you can go. Like, you know, you have to wait for it, which is tough. It's very tough. And, you know, I wasn't during the race. I. I'm always. I think most people are like, once the light goes, you just zone in and it's. It's go time. Like, exactly. You're at the office, you're doing your job, and that kind of part, your brain takes over. But up until that point, it's like the 20 minutes before the start, which is the worst bit, because once you're on the blocks, once you. Once the boat. So the boat is like locked in to the starting gates with like a kind of like a hook, essentially, which goes over the front of the boat to stop it washing around and then going straight down the lane. So the boat is like, locked in and it's ready to like, like a racehorse in the, you know, in the tunnels. The boat's ready to go. And then you're just all sitting there, like, right, you know, one in front of the other, just like listening. Like you got the noise, like, of the other, like. So the big thing, there are like planes going over every couple of minutes because you're right next to Haneda Airport or whatever. Like, there's loads of noise. It's a port, so there's like, cars charging past. There's like people on the bank like, shouting at you. Like, there's the. There's. There's loads going on. And then. And you can hear the cocks speaking down the speakers in the boat. And then you've got the crews either side of you, or they're all like, before the start, they're all like, smack each on the back, like, shouting each other, all these foreign languages. You don't know what they're saying. They're all like this. There's like people like, slapping themselves like, shouting at themselves. There's so much. They're like. There's noise. And that's even before you've got going.
Yeah.
And then you get the call to attention. It's all right, everyone come forward and you kind of roll forward, lock yourself into the water as well. You'd like, you know, you exchange maybe like a word or two with the man in front. You, like, slap on the back. You know, we've got this kind of thing. And then. Then it's deathly silence. And then it's like, right, here we go. And then the buzzer goes. And it's just the noise on an eight star is something that, like, you gotta kind of, you know, it's like you've got to kind of witness it to realize kind of what it is. It's just like.
Yeah. I feel nervous thinking back to, like. Yeah, obviously not in the Olympic final. Just like. Yeah. Even just in, like, a local regatta, like, being like. I just remember being like, 15 and just. Yeah, just yourself.
Yeah, it just goes like. It's completely silent. And then there's like all these huge guys, just apps or girls. There's all these physical specimens just straining every fiber of their body to move that boat as fast as possible for the first couple of minutes. And it's brutal. And the eights, it's just all about maximum power. Maximum power efficiency and technical precision, all condensed into the first 90 seconds of the race. And that's where so much goes on in that first bit.
Yeah, it's kind of a horrible sport in that respect because I would see some foot ball. You can have a bad first half.
Yeah.
And you've got 45 minutes to fix it, but, right, you've got, what, five and a half minutes in an eight, thereabouts. And, yeah, like you said, you get a crab or something, you can make.
A mistake in that first five seconds. That finishes it all for everyone. Like, if you. If you. It up on the first stroke, you take a duff one, you like it, like, hooks out or whatever. It doesn't. Like you wash out, you splash around or like, that's it. You've done it. Like the whole, like your race is done. And like your. Your whole. Your whole campaign, your whole four or five years or eight years of your life is done. It's over. Like, you can't recover that.
It's not selling it to people that are yet to start running. Is it craziness?
It's. It's that, like. I don't. I think it might be that, you know, because it's that, like, that's why you do it, is because you have to. You have to put so much into it just to get it right. Because then when it goes right, it's incredible.
Yeah, it's like a piece of art.
Yeah. It's like, you wouldn't. That you don't do things that are easy. Like, why do you do that? You do. You do something because it's hard and. Because you. And, like, if, you know, starting up a big entrepreneur was easy, everyone would do it. Everyone would be successful. But they're not. Yeah, they're not. Like, because it's hard. Because it's tough. And it requires commitment and dedication and perfection and skill, all the rest. That's why we do things like this, you know, whatever it is. Like, that's why you do that kind of stuff. Because it takes a lot to get it right, and there's consequences if you get it wrong. And, you know, you have to make sure that you work hard enough that it all goes well.
Yeah, definitely. So when you came back, then. So flew back next day. Yeah, that sounds kind of fucking miserable, to be fair. Do you think you're more or less motivated to do. To do the next one to try and go for Paris, having obviously been to the Olympics, not gone as well as you may have liked, but still, you know, fairly well?
No, there was.
How did the view change?
So, I mean, I kind of roll it back, like, a couple of hours before. So, like, literally the moment across the line. I'd always felt before the Games that this wasn't going to be my last one. If I was good enough, even if I won, like, even if I won, I'd be like. I think I'd definitely be in a situation where I was like, that was incredible. I need to do that again. And then I didn't. We didn't win, obviously. And so in the moment across the line, I was like, well, right again, like, good. Because, like, this experience has been so incredible. And it's more so on the podium, where I was like, standing there, like, we got given our medal and it was. There's so much kind of emotion in that moment because you've got, like, despair, pain, like defeat, all the kind of bad stuff which kind of welling up inside you, like, disappointment. You felt. You feel like you've let your crewmates down, you know, for whatever reason. It just, like, it hasn't worked. You feel like you feel upset, but then you're like. You're standing there and the cameras are on you, like, Everyone back home is watching. The thing I only realized when I got home, everyone's like, oh, it's like. I was like, so many people were.
Like, I watched it.
Yeah. So many people that I know or like or don't know at all were like, yeah, I watched it. I was like, why? It's like three in the morning. Like, you know, but then you. You're there and you're like, wow. So many people care about this. Firstly, I've got something which is awesome. Like, our race that we had was actually, from us, was a really good race. Like the. But, like, that was the. Probably the best total race I've ever done. Probably. Like, we rode well. The race itself was very tight. It was very close. Like, the crew that beat us was really good. Ultimately, like, fair play to them. We had, like, as I say, like, I don't think we sort of. I don't think I could have left. I didn't finish the race thinking I had way more there. You know, I didn't finish there thinking, like, yeah, so I can't. And you have to be detached. If you look at it and go, well, I kind of did everything that I was capable of doing at that point. So to me, the response to that is that, okay, well, I want there to be next time and I want to be capable of doing more. And what's that going to require? That's going to require more training. That's going to require more commitment. It's going to require more focus, more skill, more mental resilience, all the rest of it, like. And that's. That's what I was committed to doing from almost the moment that I crossed the line, because I was like, well, I think I've got more in me than that. And obviously, you know, bronze is incredible, and it's awesome, but I've always wanted more than that. And that's what drives me day to day, is to get. To get more. And like I've always felt with sport is that if I feel like I'm getting better and if I feel like I'm getting stronger or whatever, faster, and I'm still really enjoying it, then I'll keep doing it. And that was. That was what I was feeling in that situation. I was like, I think more in there and I can't rest. I can't stop. I can't finish this chapter before. I know I've kind of squeezed everything out of it.
Yeah. So you come back to the training then for a second because obviously, yeah, back in the saddle effectively for the Next, I guess, what, three years? So Paris, Bit less now. Like, how hard? Obviously, like I said at the start or before we start recording, I feel like rowing, in my fairly limited experience of it, is just fucking hard. And people that have never sat on an erg and been in a boat, it's one of those sports where you can't. It's like really hard just to do, in my opinion. Whereas everyone can play football. You don't have to be good, but you can. Most people can play. Whereas rowing, if you're not good, you'll fall in. Oh. If you're not remotely skilled, they can't do it once a week for like a beginner. But yeah, in terms of like your regime, like kind of on average over the previous four years. And so the next three years going forward, like, what does that look like? Like, are you like fucked every day?
So at the moment, while I'm in London, I've been training just twice a day. So just before and after work, which is, you know, a nice break from what I have been doing. Normally it's when I go back to the training center full time in November, it'll be, yeah, three times a day. So I'm up at upper half six, be starting the first session, which would normally be a weight session, like a 90 minute long upper or lower body.
Yeah.
And that'll be, yeah, that finish that by what, nine? Something like that. Then I'll do a second session at like 11, which would be again an hour, hour and a half, either on the water or on the row machine. And then there'll be a third session in the afternoon, maybe like two to start, like two or three. And that'd be another like hour or so of like, it's largely low intensity cardio, but it's just like that. It's like rowing is a lot of rowing is about volume, like just time under tension.
Yeah.
So you've gotta like, you just got to put in lots of miles. And then obviously like you've got to be, as you say, you've got to be technically good enough to be able to do that. Like it's, it's a, you know, by the time you get to the Olympic level, like you can do, you can row for hours. Ultimately, like you're, you're able to technically skillfully able to do it. But then once you're at that point, you just got to put yourself under more and more pressure and just, and increase, increase load, increase the, increase the speed, like row faster, whatever, and then technically develop as well. And make sure you're always. Because you're not just sitting on. You're not just going out and just kind of scrabbling up and down a lake for a bit and just coming, oh, like, that was fine. That you're out there and like, every stroke you're taking is like, how can this be better? Like, how can I make what I'm doing now better than it was on the last loop or whatever? And like that. And that's. That's you. That's your day to day. Like, every day you come off thinking, like, was that better than the day before if it wasn't, why? Right. If we know if we can identify what it is, fix it how, and then move forward to the next day. And that's. That's the regime. Six to seven days a week.
Yeah. Jeez, it's intense. And do you think. Would you say you enjoy every day or is it more a case of, like, a lot of it's. But you net enjoy it, which I guess is probably the case for a lot of people, including myself and what I do. But, like, what's your experience?
That I think, because rowing is one of those sports that is very training intensive. Like, as you say, like, if you're playing football or whatever, like, you know, top level, you're playing what, one or two got one, sometimes two games a week. You're doing like, you're competing in what you love regularly, which probably keeps you, like, keeps you in the game, literally. Like, keeps that fire, keeps that competitive edge. With rowing, like, we just don't get that, like, for whatever reason, it, you know, rowing is not a regular sport that you compete in. We will compete, like, I would consider, like, a fair amount throughout the year. Like, we'll compete internally against each other in boats on the water like before Christmas and then a couple of times early in, like, the early spring. And then our main big international races racing season is from, like, May through to August, September. But even so, in that you'll only do like three or four big races a year. So with that in mind, you have. I think you have to enjoy the process. Like, you have to be able to enjoy it. Because if, yeah, literally, as you say, if you're sitting there thinking, the only thing I can do is race, I can't. Like, I can't do the training. Like, everyone's gonna beat you. Like, because all the people that you race at this level are people that are really good at training who are then also they're able to use that and race better and race Faster than you. So you can't ultimately be someone that says, I can't train, but I can race. Because that's like you can do that at a younger, when you're younger, when you know people aren't training full time, you know, they don't whatever, like they're school boys or they're uni or whatever. Like you can be one of those guys that just turns up for the races and it's just good enough to do better. But like once you get into the top level, it's more about physiology and it's more about just people who. It's their full time job and when it's your full time job, you've got to put the hours in.
Yeah, definitely. And do you think it makes having a life outside rowing difficult? I mean, in my experience, I was speaking to a mate the other day about being an entrepreneur and I think anything that's kind of obsessive in nature, which I feel like being an athlete and being an entrepreneur have many similarities in that respect. I feel like it's always gonna affect your social life, but like, particularly with rowing and well, being an athlete but rowing, it's like obviously it's so physically straining and like do you, obviously it's a choice, but do you feel like you sacrifice other elements of life? No relationships like going out, whatever, like holidays, potentially that side of things?
Oh, 100. Yeah, like, definitely, like holidays for example. Like, you know, I get, I get three weeks off a year all in. Like I basically will normally get the month of September off. So like, and that's literally finish your race on, you know, 30th of August or whatever and then you're back training full time on what, the 1st of October, whatever. So like you have that literally that three weeks exactly of September off and that's it. And you just literally have to. Each day is precious because you have to like veg out as much as possible. Just like decompress, like fit in, whatever you can. Like that's from. Yeah, if you're going on holiday, seeing family, doing any kind of professional development you want to do, like, like if you can try and do an internship, whatever. Like if you want to do an internship, like ultimately most of those are going to be months long ideally. But you know, you can't do a two month, a two week long internship. Really. Like, yeah, most companies gonna laugh you doing that. And that's two of your three or three weeks of holiday gone. So like, yeah, that definitely that suffers. And yeah, like, you know, as I said it's similar to uni in that a lot of your friends are going to be rowers and like, you're all in the same boat, literally in the, in the team aspect, you're all. Everyone's in the same situation. So you have, you know, you have those social experiences with your teammates a lot of the time. Yeah, but you know, like, it's not, you know, you will get, like most. Most Sundays you will get off. So you can, like, if it was, if you really wanted to, you can go every Saturday if you fancy it. Like, you can do that. Like, you can. It's like, you know, it's like a normal job, except you just don't get Saturday night as well. You know, you always, you always train on a Saturday. So, you know, you get. So you don't get, you don't get Friday night. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, to be fair, so Friday, Saturday, I mean.
Yeah, yeah.
Like boring life.
Yeah.
Doing that every week you lose out.
On some of that, like, undoubtedly. But, you know, you can only be an athlete for so long. So it's not like I'm doing this the rest of my life. Like, I'm doing this now while I can. And you know, once I've. Once I've finished being an athlete, whenever that happens, you know, there's the rest of life still ahead of you ultimately. Yeah, there's plenty of time to do all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I guess two part question there as well, because I just remembered, like, firstly, like, I mean, I suppose rowings stereotypically are fairly, you know, privileged, posh, whatever, whatever you want to call it sport. And secondly, do you think because it's not that accessible, just because you need a boat, which obviously I compared to football, most kids, that I'm accessing you in a river? Typically it's at schools and typically it's private schools because just is. Or it's like a club. Like I went to York City. So. Yeah, firstly, like, do you think it. It is like a privileged sport and it. Well, what am I trying to ask? I'm trying to say, like, it's a fairly niche sport. Do you see that changing or is it because it's quite expensive to do?
No, I think it's a fair question and I think it's. It's the right one because it's like, you're definitely right that it's, it's not accessible, which is a real problem. And it's not something. It's something that I really want to, like. I would like to see change in Rowing. Because ultimately, if you don't live near a piece of water. Yeah, it's very hard.
That's what I mean. Yeah.
Yeah. So there's that in itself, which is not. I'm not trying to cop, like, trying to dodge it, but like, that itself, like, if you're out in. I don't know where it's got no water. You know, if you're in Birmingham, there's not a lot of accessible rivers or like, you can't really row on the canals. Like, there's no kind of real big lakes around there. Like, there's more than you think. But most of those places don't have our own clubs on them. Yeah. So it's. It's not easy for, like, if you're right, if you're Manchester. But there's only one club really in Manchester, which hcroft. Hcraft Club, which is a great club, very, like, historic, but it's one club to serve what, how many of a million people in Manchester. So it's like. Whereas, you know, down here in London, the riverbank's lined with clubs for all people. Or like, you know, in the Thames Valley or whatever. Like, you know, there's. If you live in the Thames Valley, it's easy to row and that's great. That's awesome. But it also tends to be where more wealthy people live.
Yeah.
So they have more access to lots of things and sport in general anyway. So there's a lot of more deprived areas of this country that either they're deprived in terms of income or deprived in terms of actual access to facilities, which is something that British rowing. Really neat. The governing body really needs to do more to help because it's just. It's just a question of putting, like giving access to facilities, like building infrastructure, like building rowing clubs and making rowing accessible, because it's. You don't. Like, literally, you do not have to be posh to be good at rowing. Like, it's not like, there's not some genetic thing that if you're posher and richer, you're getting better. It's just. It's just not like anyone can do it. Anyone can be good at it. They just need. I rephrase that. Anyone can be good at it. Not anyone can do it because of how tough it is to get into it. And that's. That's the. That's the change. It needs to happen. It needs to be opened up to a broader section of society and then it won't be. It won't have this stereotype like, Yeah.
I mean it's not, it's not a bad stereotype like I guess but yeah, like, especially people that don't know rowing would probably just, you know, that's what, you know, that's what posh people go to at Henley, isn't it? Yeah. And like. But I think it's. Yeah, it's a, it's not the truth because I mean, yeah like I'm not fucking posh. I went to a state school. Like rowing was a big part of my life as a junior. There's a lot of other people that I know like Newcastle is a good example of that. Newcastle uni. Not, you know, plenty of normal people would ever go there. It's not a fucking posh uni really. But yeah, it's just, I guess, yeah it primarily is because you need water and a boat.
Yeah.
Eight costs 30 grand. It's not like buying a football.
Yeah.
You know you can't kick about against.
The wall when you're. No, it wouldn't do much good. Yeah.
Yeah.
Like that's the thing. It's needed, needs. It needs someone to build a rowing club and you need to be, you need to find accessible facilities to be able to do it. And then, then it would be, it would be something because like, like if you get yourself a couple of rowing boats, get yourself a half decent coach, you can just roll like hundreds of kids and like, you know, people through it. Like anyone can use a boat, they can just jump in and just, and use it and like the next people can get in, use it. Like once you have equipment you can get lots of people invested in the sport. But if to just get started is a lot of sunk costs getting going. Which is, which is why it's hard to set up clubs like that.
Yeah. Then I suppose it's like because not that many people do it. It's a fairly niche sport ultimately even though it's one of GB's most successful Olympic sports weirdly along with like cycling I think. And then it's like because you know, you don't get many kids that grow up and as obviously people look at like they want to be a footballer. Of course everyone wants to be a footballer. But then yeah there's just not that awareness of running is there really? Like even when I was doing it in school, people be like where are you going after school to train. Let's even know what it was.
Yeah.
And then yeah it kind of keeps it because I think it's a. Well I'm not saying it's. You Know tiny sport. But yeah, I think it's a shame that there isn't more recognition because it is such. Yeah. It's just a hard sport and it's a good sport because it breeds like I've never met anyone that did rowing that was a cunt really. I like I wasn't. I mean there's some. But genuinely people that get into it to a decent level even as a junior or whatever. Yeah. In my experience a pretty well rounded people that go on to do fairly decent things.
Ultimately largely it's a team sport and you can't succeed in a team if you're a company. You can't succeed if you're not able to in some way to get people to work with you.
Yeah.
So like. Yeah, like exactly that. Like you have to have to be able to work with people. You have to be able to train. You have to be able to like literally you have to be able to get in a boat with someone and be like I'm not going to try and kill this guy. Like you know, it has to be. There has to be at least some level of that. So you're right like you know, like every like all walks of life. Rowing attracts all sorts. But I think it's true that you can't succeed if you're not able to work together.
Yeah. And then I think because of that like there's obviously that Cameron Buchan that started doing like vlogs and shit. He was probably like the first I guess obviously youtuber that's a rower. Is he in the maintain?
He's not anymore. He was.
He's got like that yam squad brand that he's built which is quite smart.
Yeah. No, Cam's a great guy. I have known him for a few years now. We were on the team together when I first joined. He unfortunately got over training syndrome. Well like chronic fatigue basically.
I've had that for a few years now, probably since I quit.
Yeah.
After being on that area for last time.
Yeah, that was really unfortunate because he was really good. Like he's better now but he's not back on the team unfortunately. But like he's. Yeah he's really had a lot of fun races with him. He's a great guy. And yeah he actually took. Made a like he was one of the first like trailblazing trying to like mass market rowing as a. That's what I mean people to watch.
Because is there like much sponsorship in terms of like how you can like monetize because obviously like it still baffles Me that, like, you've been to the Olympics and you've got like 3,000 followers. Not there's anything wrong with that.
No, no.
But like, whereas anyone that's in the Premier League's got a million plus followers. Of course they do, because, you know, football. But yeah, it's like, is there still. Do you come across like sponsorship opportunities and stuff in, or is it just because it's a relatively very thin on the ground?
I got. Yeah, no, I don't. Yeah, I don't have any sponsors or anything like that. Like, I think there's. There's maybe like one or two. I mean, if that, like maybe one or two people in the entire GB rowing community that have any, any form of corporate sponsor or sponsor at all. It's not. It's not exactly buying you Ferraris or whatever. It's small fry. And. Yeah, that's just, you know, that's just a. A symptom of the. There isn't. So the big thing, especially about. Because I had a few conversations post, post Olympics, and the big thing about it, like Team GB as a brand is oversaturated in terms of talent. Everyone wants to sponsor like, you know, Tom Daly or the triathlete guys, the Brownies, like.
Yeah.
Or whatever, like, you know, swimmers, like PT and that kind of thing. Like, everyone wants to sponsor those guys. And it's like, if you're a big brand or whatever, like corporate sponsorship in general appears to be kind of going down and taking hits, especially athlete sponsorship. It's not as big a deal as it used to be, or it's not as much of a deal. Brands are kind of collating around like one or two or like a few individuals. They're not like, they're only going for the big hitters, basically, because being an athlete as a personality is. It's more of like a. It's maturing essentially, like in a. As a concept, like the brand ambassador, like the athlete ambassador itself. It's like, was fairly a fairly new idea, especially with social media a few years ago. Now people are kind of working it out. I mean, where am I getting the most bang for my buck? Essentially, it's only from like the top few people that have, like that. You can put like, you know, what is it? You know, you can put like Adam Peacey on the front of like a. The cereal or cereal or something like that. You can get Jess Ennis and put her in like a commercial or whatever. Like. Or an advert. Like, that's where the money goes. It goes. It just Goes straight to the top. Like, it doesn't, brands don't try and like build up a small time successful athlete, but they don't, they don't go for, they just go straight to the top and if they can't get the top, then they won't bother, basically. And that's, that's generally how it's looking. I mean like, it does, it does cascade down a little bit, but it doesn't, it doesn't fall all the way to row, unfortunately.
Yeah, interesting. And then somebody was talking about previously as well, before we start recording. So like, and again, I speak to my friend Ryan, I'm pretty close with, who's in the system as well, but not in the Olympic team yet. And speaking to him about, like, obviously you spend all this time in like, you know, prime physical years, certainly like not doing other things. So like, how does that affect positively or negatively, like career after rowing? And at what point does that become a consideration? Because obviously, yeah, like you said you want to go to Paris, but then, you know, after that, like, how do you think about that? And is, is that something that like the system helps with? Because obviously, like we're saying there's obviously if you're a Premier League footballer, you kind of sorted, whereas rowing, it's not the case.
So I think there's a couple of points there. So there's the point that definitely it's changing. So in previous years, the teams like GBRA and across, like Premier League as well and across the across all sport have been very uninterested in athlete development and individual growth. All they want is the medals or the goals. That's all they want. They want the performance of the athlete while they're in their physical prime. And the moment they're done, you're out on the street, like you're done with whatever you've made from it. And that used to be how it ran and it is still that way to a certain extent, especially in the high financial turnover sports like football, like, they're not like, ultimately there's still no real incentive for them to kind of really look after people. But it's changing up in a lot of sports and rowing has got a lot better at it in the last few years. Like, so what I'm doing at the moment is I've been allowed to be away from the team for two months. I'm doing an internship at the moment, which in previous years just wouldn't, would have been completely off the cards. Yeah, like, that's a change that, that's happened and we've been given the kind of the autonomy to be like, you can do this for a bit. And you know, it will definitely is definitely helping me, like just kind of grow beyond sport. And it's really good. I mean, luckily I had my degrees before I came into the team, but like. And I think also because rowing is maybe a positive, because rowing is not as financially viable. It's like, you can't go into rowing and be like, I'm going to make my career, my millions in rowing. It doesn't happen. Where are you going to do it from? So there isn't that young, that focus from a young age, just like, just go straight to the top and miss out steps along the way. Like some form of either education or just like something, something broadens you, whatever it is. Like you're saying like entrepreneurship or like what, like just other skills. Like there are people that still do that. There are people that still just go all out in sport, but I think it's less common. And that's meaning that now more athletes, especially at the top end, are coming out of rowing with more to them than just being an athlete, which is a good thing.
Yeah. And do you think you lose, like your, I don't know, professional or like work edge because, as in, like outside rowing, because you're rowing all the time, or do you think obviously you still doing something that's, you know, very similar principles ultimately to any business, like showing up every day.
Yeah.
So working, et cetera, et cetera.
I think it's as we were talking about kind of before we started recording, like there's, it's just a question of kind of teasing out the skills that you actually are learning while being an athlete. Like big things like teamwork, like passion, drive, dedication, all that stuff that you get from being an athlete, that's all there. You just have to like. And that's what you're doing day to day. And people outside of sport find that impressive, which to me like, or to other athletes is like just what you're doing. You have to, you have to do all those things well to be a successful athlete. But people outside sport find that impressive. So you're like, okay, right, well, that's a commodity that. How do I use that? And that's the conversation you have to have with yourself is that like you have to work out how you speak to that and how you kind of bring that out of yourself and explain that to people because they're like, okay, well, you just row. Right. Okay. You do all this cool stuff. Great. But like, are you valuable to me beyond that? Can you actually demonstrate? Can you use those skills beyond rowing will be on sport in general. That's what you have to work out and that's what for me, the last couple of months have been about. It's just like, it's all there, it's all being used. I'm using those skills day to day, but I didn't really realize I was doing it. I didn't know how to bring that out. But then when you actually put yourself into a work environment and go like, can I actually have a normal conversation with someone that's actually nothing to do with rowing? Or like, can I, can I do.
A lot of rowers probably struggle with.
That and yeah, yes, definitely there's a transition that you have to get used to it again. But you just have to find how to, to, yeah. Deploy those skills that you do have to have to be a professional team athlete.
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Because like I said before, yeah, I pretend I had some glorious youth riding career, but yeah, definitely, yeah. I think ultimately if you can, if you're willing to get up at bloody half six in the morning, go sit on a cold river and shred your hands up as a child or as a full time athlete, then. Yeah, it says a lot about your ability to do other stuff. I think so. Yeah, definitely. Just sets you up for life. Like everyone should try and do a 2k erg to like a respectable level. Just on a. Yeah. Just in the gym by themselves one day and yeah. Then suddenly they'll probably think differently. Just a quick one then before we wrap up, what is the hardest session you've ever done? Either on the Ergo or in the water? Just harder session anytime.
We did a session at uni which was ten 3K water pieces. So that's, yeah, 3,000 meters on the water. This is on the river out in big boats. And it was, I think it might have been my, my second or third year. My third year actually. I was in December on the Tyne, snowing, like just absolutely miserable. Like windy, like freezing, you know. You know, it's like, like. And just going all the way from up the river in Newcastle, all the way through the center, underneath the Swing Bridge, like past the Millennium Bridge, all that like, then all the way down there, then all the way back up back home to new. Back to the boathouse at New Bern. And that was brutal because you're just like, you're in a crew, you're in an A. Like, don't know if it's Going well or not. Like it might be rolling around, your hands are freezing, you can't hold onto the handle, you're training yet, doing hard pieces, so you're fucked anyway. And then you, like once you get into the middle of town, you've then got to get all the way back home. It's not like you can't just get out there. Like you've got to know, you've got to physically get the boat all the way back up and row back home. So like, yeah, that was. They were the hard ones back in the day.
Yeah. Pretty brutal wearing pogies in the winter, no doubt. Yeah. Geez. That's an hour and a half plus over an hour and a half already. I mean to probably speak forever about riding and so on, but yeah, I hope we see Paris. Golden Paris. Do you want to be in the four or the eight?
I don't know. I mean, is that a long way away? Well, I mean, look, now I've lost it, I've got to try and win it, haven't I? I always feel like. Yeah, I always feel that's like a goal. But whatever, you know, I. I hope firstly I hope to be there. Like that's the big thing as well. Like there's just because I've done this, there's no guarantee I'll be there again and that's very much like aware of that. Like I've got to, I've got to actually walk the walk as well as talking it, you know, I've got to make sure I'm good enough to be there firstly. And that will be my goal is to be on the start line and then once if I'm there then great. That's all to play for.
Yeah. Geez. There'll be some rowing montage on YouTube in four years time you can look back on. Yeah, class. Right, well, good to chat. We'll wrap it up there then. Cheers for watching, listening, wherever you are and we'll see you on the next one. Cheers.
