Zero to 7 Figures 3x Times Over & Lessons Learned - Matt Kelly | Life Money & Love Pod *BONUS EP*

The reason I know I'm like, authentically an entrepreneur is because I've had shit go wrong and I've still wanted to start again. At the time, before shit went wrong, I was speaking to private equity. They were like, we think we can scale this to a billion in revenue. I was like, fucking hell, let's go. Yeah, it was a real cliff in terms of. I thought, jesus Christ, I'm on to the next fucking gymshark here.

I've never heard someone have to go through as big of a crisis and come out the other side.

Yeah, that was pretty fucked up. I think my perspective on the world changed after that because, I mean, long story short, it was financial fuckery because I lost a lot of money in the business maintenance administration, but it was also a social media onslaught, which was the other part of it, and, like death threats for like six months and the fucking tabloids at my door. That's how complicated this got.

What do you think truly makes you happy?

Feeling like I'm getting better. That's probably the main thing, progression. But as a man, I think you have to be making progress or you cannot be fulfilled. I don't know if happiness is even the goal. I feel like fulfillment and purpose is the goal. You're going to be happy, but I think to be happy, you have to be unhappy and stressed sometimes. Otherwise it's not happiness, it's just existence.

Just quickly, before we get started, guys, if you've been enjoying the podcast, can I please ask that you consider leaving a five star review and subscribing whatever platform you've been listening. It really helps the podcast grow. All right, we've got a sick podcast today. The best men in the world are going 0 to 1 self confessed. So 0 to 2 million Australian when we.

And 1 to 0 once or twice.

Yeah, well, that's what we're going to talk about your whole journey. Obviously, I don't want to spend too much time digging up old wounds, but, like, there's what you've done, you know, multiple founder. You've had jewelry businesses, fashion businesses, a neon, you know, custom neon sign business, which was where you made heaps of money, but then arguably was the toughest period of your life. So we've got to touch on that. It's just unavoidable. I think part of your story.

More podcast or therapy sessions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what are you doing today? Again, I'm a fan of the Midnight Pod. You got a podcast, but current brand space goods, which. Which we got right in front of is A really sick brand in the mushroom space. You got a passion for psilocybin and everything that can do for mental health. So good to talk about that whole journey with you, bro. But to start, where I like to start is kind of paint the picture, what it's like. And again, I know what my answers to these questions are because I think. We think something similar. But for you, talk to me about why. Like, because you went to uni. Did you finish?

I went and dropped out twice. Yeah.

How long did you last?

I did six weeks and then I went back for about six months, but by that point I discovered Facebook ads and was making a bit of money and then eventually left. But it's funny because I used to have a much bigger office then when I was 20 in uni in Newcastle, where it's like the cheapest place in the world compared to what I have now, seven years later. But obviously a much bigger business and so on. It's just funny how things work out. But, yeah, I dropped out twice. Never look back.

Yeah, it's. Fuck, it's. I don't know what the education system's like here in the uk, but, like, man, I didn't realize. I didn't know business was an option. Like, I thought business was. Like, I'm going to be a barber, a tradie, you know, open a cafe. I didn't realize what business was, but I was sold that bullshit dream the whole way through school that I was going to be a lawyer. I got. I got to uni two weeks in, I'm like, I can't do this, man. I was depressed. I dropped out with the intention of going back and I never went back. But for you, what was it like inside of you that from such a young age you've spoken about, you knew from 10 years old you wanted to be an entrepreneur. What was it in you that thought you can't just suck it up and follow the path that everyone else does?

I honestly don't know. I mean, I spoke about this a lot, my own pod and so on. I just knew I would never finish before I even started. But it was a great way to meet people, meet girls, etcetera, Live away from home for the first time. So I think uni has a lot of merit to probably most of society. Like, what the fuck else are you going to do? Most people don't want to start a business. And, yeah, I guess I just knew for some reason I would build something and leave. Didn't have the vehicle at the time to leave eventually, like, I said figured out E Commerce to some extent. Um, and then basically didn't leave until I could afford to leave really. So until I was making enough money to self sustain, which at the time wasn't very much. But yeah, I don't know, I just had a fucking. So you, you like a lot of entrepreneurs, you maybe have a bit of delusion where you just think you're different.

Well, like you said, I. I feel like everyone these days feels like they do want to start a business until they try and realize how fucking hard.

It'S really trendy now though.

Yeah.

Especially like E commerce and agencies and all this shit.

Yeah, well, on that as well, like, I want to talk to you about with how like how many people are starting income brands, the level of competition that, that people face these days, the copycats, the people that steal IP and all that stuff. I want to get into all that. But you said you was great, great way to, you know, make, you know, meet girls, have fun, move out of, move out of, move out of home. Did you do, where did you do? Uni?

Like, is you Newcastle?

So you, you were from down here?

No. So I'm from York. I've lost the accent. I'm in New York, which if you're not from the uk, probably won't know. Old York, not New York, I guess a little. It's not even small. It's like 200,000 people. It's a nice historic city, very beautiful, very quaint, but very fucking stuck in the 60s, I guess, and just no one starts businesses there. And I went to uni in Newcastle, which is a great party city. It's where Geordie Shaw was from.

Yeah. Cause you would have been at uni while Geordie Shaw was like at its peak, right?

Yeah, we were so like Gaz and Scotty or whatever would always be in the bars and Jesmond and shit. So it was around that golden era and everyone started wearing like those hairy jeans and so on, like the deep.

V neck shirts and.

Yeah, all that. So it was like 2016. 2015. 16. That was a so. So a while ago now. Yeah.

What point do you realize, like you said, you're already making more money than like to live and have fun. What point do you realize that, you know, ecom's an option and you're going to give it a proper crack with it. Drop shipping. Did you start with or did you.

Go straight to Google? She was the opposite way around. So very long story short, and I've probably told this story in a million Pods. But maybe people haven't heard it. So I started. I used to be interested in drawing logos. That's where it all came from. I was a creative at heart, I guess. And I was a creative first. I didn't know how to fucking make any money. But I started a clothing brand when I was like 18, which was like literally a white T shirt with a logo. Everyone laughed at me. I was on Shopify in like 2014 doing that shit. So feels like a fucking nearly a decade ago.

Fucking 2014. That's like the proper glory days.

I wasn't running ads or anything. I was just like. Had a website sold to my like mates. I think I sold like 200. 200 quids worth of T shirts in like a year or something. So absolute nothing. Went to uni. Kind of parked that. Started a print on demand leggings business because I used to be a rower for like 10 years.

Yeah.

So I was in boats all the time. I wanted leggings that look cool. So that made a bit of money. Maybe did like 10 grand in revenue over like a year. Which at the time was crazy. No ads still. But then I discovered Facebook ads in like 2016, which is the glory days. In hindsight, I wish I'd no now I knew then or vice versa.

Could you imagine if we could get those CPMs today?

Well, yeah, I'd be retired. Yeah. A long time ago. A long time ago. Then yes. I started drop shipping ripped jeans because I saw Geordie Shaw and I was like, oh shit, this is going to. Everyone's wearing these. Ripped jeans is like spray on skinny ripped jeans that are basically fucking leggings for men in hindsight. Started dropshipping those from China back when there was no competition. My mate then got involved. We then started buying stock and this became a clothing brand called Dusk. And Luke Hemmings from 5 Seconds of Summer started buying our shit and I was a massive fan of that and still probably am if you're honest with you.

Still are.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we. It became a full on clothing brand. Like in hindsight it's kind of mad because I knew nothing about that industry. I wasn't particularly into fashion evidently. But yeah, that was when I stopped going to uni pretty much. So we had an office. It was probably the size of this room. There's literally two of us there. Guy called Ollie Hudson, he runs my ads now and is an investor in my business. So it's funny how things come around. But yeah, I just stopped going to uni. I actually got Kicked out eventually because I just didn't show up and do work.

What was going, going back? Like, I love thinking about.

Very long story short, it was like two, three years compact.

I love thinking about that. When we first launched the business and you first start making money for yourself, like it's like, in my opinion, it's the first time you really start living life and like it's the first time you've stepped outside the system, you realize what life's all about and you realize that your dreams can actually come true. And I know that's such a cheesy thing to say, your dreams can come true, but I was from like a low middle class family. I. Well, I assume you were the same. I know you didn't have like business, you know, business like mentors from your family. What's going through your head when like you and your mate are sitting in this fucking office, two of you in a decent sized office, and he was like looking at your Shopify and you're making, you know, however much money you.

Don'T, you're like, yeah, I think we were doing like 30 to 50 grand a month in revenue, which back then was mind blowing.

Early, early 20s or late teens.

Yeah, I was like 20, 21. Yeah. So it was decent and we were like profitable. I mean cacs were like fucking three quid back then. So you had a lot more margins to play with. But yeah, it's always weird. I wish I could experience that feeling again because you never, you can't go back to feeling how you felt because now I have experience in context and other things that, that would shape how I think about it in hindsight. But at the time it was probably.

Crazy like if you, if you could do like 100 million dollar exit. Now this is me personally, I know if you would agree, I don't think it would be as fun and as exciting as like making your first million or your first like 100 grand months. Like.

Yeah.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that and it's kind of like kind of sad in hindsight because you can never feel that excitement of the first time, like going into entrepreneurship and having something work. I think I posted, I used to write really deep captions on my Instagram and shit. So if people scroll Back to like 2017, 16, you'll see evidence of me in this office thinking I was some fucking big shot with my feet on the table with. We had like this big poster of the logo behind and so on and like an elon musk mural on the wall. But yeah, it was a fun time.

And then yeah, because with your story, I think it's. I always find it interesting, like what was the, what was the moment for people that was like that flick switched in their head and made them realize that there's another way to do it. That period of your life where you traveled for like two years, was that before you got into business? Right after, like talking about that period?

Just after this. So I was running the clothing brand early 2017 in the office, just stopped going to uni. But my mate who we were like, I think he had like 30% of it because he put like five grand in or something. It was a bit of a weird setup. We were both like 20. He wanted to stay at uni, basically we fell out because I wanted to start traveling. He didn't. We then had a trademark issue, so we basically had a lawyer. So you have to fucking stop selling our shit because someone else owns the Dusk trademark.

Is that like the candles and shit?

I don't actually know because they're some American company. We were just kind of like, all right, fuck it, let's just pack this in. We didn't have that much stock. We didn't sell the business or anything, which maybe we could have in hindsight. We just packed it in and we're like, let's stop doing this. And then I started traveling by myself basically. So I did this European tour which is on YouTube. If people go and watch my old YouTube channel from 2017, there's about 150 videos of me. Not all in Europe, but some where it started in Europe, just fucking selfie vlogging. Life was a lot more simple back then, I suppose. And yeah, that was when I first thought, well, because basically I had no mates that would travel with me. So all at uni. And I was like, well, I want to go and figure out. I think I bought Ben Mallow's Facebook ads course, which anyone that's been in the game a while, that's like fucking some historic shit. And I was in all these Facebook groups learning about like Murray Edwards seven figure mastermind or some bullshit joke in hindsight. But the real pivotal thing actually, I mean I'd already discovered the entrepreneurship could work by that point. I was already self sufficient. But I went to some. I went to the E Commerce World Summit. It was called Steve and Evan Tan's event. I don't know if you remember those guys. In September 2017 in Singapore, I got a one way flight to that which is Where I met people like Jordan Smythe and a bunch of other guys. And that was the first time I'd ever met anyone else doing this shit. Which changed the game for me because I thought, I'm not. Well, I still am a weirdo because I want to do this shit. But I'm not the only one. Whereas before, it's like, I think if you don't know anyone else doing this kind of stuff, it's very, very lonely.

Well, I didn't. I didn't know anyone doing it either. And I didn't. It took like seeing like a couple big Aussie brands like High Smile and Bondi Sands to do it. And we're like, fuck. Like it's possible because depending on who your family is and like what they do for work, you don't get exposed to it. Now your family is like, has kind of. From what it seems from the outside looking in. Obviously did my research. Bit more traditional views than yourself. What are they thinking at this point? We're like, Matt's off, you know, traveling the world, working from his laptop. Did think it was real, Did I think this is going to last?

I think probably like a lot of parents, they thought, I hope he doesn't it up or something. But I think, yeah, I mean, I'm buried. I've got a twin brother who's nothing like me. I think that they knew that from. From probably early on that I was never going to follow a set path, I suppose. But yeah, going to Singapore was. I always look back on that fondly. Over six years ago now, which is crazy, nearly six years. But yeah, that's where I met loads of people. Then I went to Bali for the first time, which was also a bit of a game changer because I met loads more people there, lived out there for a few months and did this kind of global tour for a while for about two years before settling in London. I still traveled a lot and still do, but that was like full nomad back then.

Do you think you could ever do the nomad lifestyle again?

I've toyed with it, yeah. I just. I don't think I can. It's not.

I don't think you can. It's not best for building a business.

Full. It's not best for building a business, definitely. Like it's prioritizing lifestyle of a business, which I think back then, when you want to meet people and expose yourself to a lot of new shit is very good and useful. But yeah, now I'd rather I try and separate the two now. A Bit. I mean, I still don't, but I was, I was in Bali twice this year and I was like, let me just try and have a week where I just, I'm on holiday, but it doesn't happen.

Ah, bro.

But I also realized being back there, I couldn't live in a third world country again. Getting fucking Bali belly every other week. Every other week and so on.

I've been traveling for only, what, like three and a half weeks now. And like, I do not feel myself, I'll be honest with you. Like, it's not Australia. I don't miss Australia. I miss having a home base where I can, yeah, you know, work in my, in my zone, not be disrupted, get done. But it's like that experience and traveling in such an early age can really shift people's perspectives. And I know you, you like, you have a lot of these conversations. You're interviewed heaps. You interview heaps of people. What do you think's the biggest hack for? Like, not hack, like, what, what can people do? Because, like, for people like you and I, realizing that the system isn't set up to make you happy was pretty instinctive, pretty intuitive. You didn't have to think too hardly about it. But what can people do to help them step outside of that or help them find what they should be doing with their lives? Have you thought about that?

I think the first thing is just speaking to people that think like you. And by default you probably won't know any of them if you grew up in a normal background. And just Statistically, it's probably 1% of people that are mentally ill enough to want to be an entrepreneur, at least authentically want to be, don't just want to be on Instagram like a lot of people. So, yeah, I would just join fucking Facebook groups. Discords. There's heaps of those now. I just launched a discord as well. Loads of people just begging me to make them for that reason, because they want to meet people that watch my shit and so on. Yeah, go to an in person event. There's plenty of those. I've hosted a few. I think that's the most important thing, just speaking to people that think like you for a starting point, so you don't become potentially brainwashed by other people's way of doing things, which for most people is living a normal life. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just if you, if you feel like you want to actually do your own and do things differently, then you need to get exposed to that.

How many People, like, as a percentage. And it's obviously going to be speculative, like how many, what percentage of the world do you think really does want to do what everyone's doing? Oh, because I've got a theory that no one does. They just haven't. They've just fallen for the spell.

Yeah. But I think the flip side of that is I also think, like I said, probably only 1% of people actually want to be an entrepreneur because it's so fucking painful.

Well, the, like, the ups and downs.

Well, they like the idea of it and they say they want to be. But if you actually put, you know, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen or something. It's like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur when it's going well.

Well, I feel like after a while, like if you've been in for a year or two plus, and like, I feel like it's like a drug addiction. Like at times I like this. I'm sure you would have had it. Business can be really lonely. There's times where like it's 2am and you've got to solve problem and all your mates are asleep. There's no one there. It's just you. Like you, you, you in the office staring at your laptop, you're like, why the do I put myself through this? But I can't stop coming back. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's a roller coaster for sure now.

Speaking of roller coasters, where was the big up for you? Now, I know you've made a lot of money for a lot of different businesses, but which business on that cycle did start getting serious for you in terms of like, revenue numbers, like lifestyle changing?

2020 as a whole. Yeah, I mean, 2019. But 2020 was like a really big year, I think, for a lot of brands and founders in general, because it was Covid. So Ecom boomed and it was like, in hindsight, it was a real boom. So, yeah, I was running my jewelry business, Midnight City, then also the neon light brand at the same time, living in this fucking penthouse apartment in London with Fred, who's the founder of Sanucci, and another guy. I had two stupid cars in the garage. All the cars I had a full fat black Range Rover and a Ferrari 458 Spider, which I don't regret at all. But it's not financially the most sensible shit to spend money on.

Has that experience with that sort of level of luxury made you more motivated to work? Or did you realize you don't fucking really care about that stuff as you grow up, you know.

Yeah, I think it's both. I think everyone should buy a stupid car if they can remotely afford it to realize that it's not that cool after about a month. But then you should also buy one because. Because it is cool and you're probably real. I mean, I certainly. I've always liked cars, so that was just a thing for me. Yeah, I think it's one of those things where if you experience something, your perspective on it becomes more whole and you probably realize pros and cons to anything. Like, I think having that is cool. But it definitely probably skews your perspective on certain things. Like, the issue with that for me is my standards were set so high from a young age that I'll probably never be like materially satisfied until I've got a Cullinan or something. Which is like another level if you're playing that game with yourself. But you don't have to.

If you can have the self awareness to realize, hey, it's fun and I enjoy it, but it's not why I do everything I do. I feel like it can be fine.

Yeah, I think I definitely get more pleasure out of my little sausage dog. Yeah. Maybe pleasure is the wrong words. I was gonna clip that, like happiness or some.

We'll clip that one up, Joe. Yeah, that. That experience with that. Do you feel like having so much money so early on, like you said? Because I. I could be guilty of the same thing. Like we did over 12 million in our first year. It's like kind of sets the expectation for everything you do moving forward. How difficult was that for you to. And I'm skipping a bit forward for now. But how difficult was you. Was it for you to move past that? Not unrealistic because, like you've done it. It is possible. But that expectation that every business has to grow as quickly as neon.

Yeah, I've always said. Even prior to that, though, like, just to go back slightly, when I was traveling around Bali and so on, I was doing a half a million quid a month just dropshipping random shit from China. Because I went through that period of like Chad scaling when ads were so cheap and it was just like general store. Yeah, you just systemized test products. Oberlo. All this. Which 99 of dropshippers are still doing. So. So that including like the brands. I guess I'd seen big numbers when I was really young, which is good because it shows you what's possible. But it's also probably quite bad because your standards are set so high and Yeah, I don't know. Anything below that is like failure in my mind as well.

I think it's difficult for you from looking into your story and obviously you've got like a network of like, really awesome mates that. Absolutely killing it with Ecom. But it seems like for you, comparison has been like a challenge that you've had to deal with. Comparison to your previous self and some of the revenue targets and comparison to your mates. Businesses like Sanuchi. Absolutely killing it. Have you.

Yeah.

You know, over the last 12 months, have you been able to, you know, kind of work past that or kind of, you know, shut it up a little bit?

That's probably why I started seeing a therapist again recently. Yeah.

What do you get out of seeing a therapist to help you process?

I think. I mean. I mean, on my part, I'm probably like the most honest person in this space, to be honest. I've been very vocal about my struggles, my mind and shit. I think a lot of it does come from comparison, I think, for a lot of people in general. But I'm fortunate and unfortunate enough that all my mates are probably 0.01% of people. If you look at them, like, statistically, on a financial basis. That's not the only reason I mates them, of course, but we, you know, by default we have. I've got to know those sort of people. If I compare myself to people I went to school with, at least from a purely business perspective, I'll think, oh, I'm killing it, but I'd rather be a smaller fish in a bigger pond. But there is the downside of all my mates doing bigger numbers than me. Yeah. So is he. So is he like even, like the.

Comparison to your brother growing up? Do you feel like that fuck fucked you up in the head a little bit? Just the constant comparison because you're so different to your twin brother.

Yeah, probably. Probably felt like I had something to prove. Yeah. We're just so different, though. It doesn't even feel like a worthy comparison. Because he couldn't give a fuck about what numbers I'm doing with an E Commerce brand now, he's probably happier than me as well. He just lives a more simple life, I suppose.

Now, if there was. If there was a magic pill, because I've heard you speak about this and it's like your brothers lives in like, a more normal life, like each to their own. There's. There's no. Nothing better about being in business, like just whatever makes you happy. But you said he's had steady relationships. He's probably generally a happier. It's easier for him to manage his mental health now with knowing what you know about the ups and downs, the stresses of business. If there was a magic pill I could give you and you could trade places with him, would you take it?

No. Yeah, I think yeah. It just isn't me. And I think, I think the reason I know I'm like authentically an entrepreneur, which is. Sounds like a big dick swinging word when you say it like that, but it's because I've had a go wrong and I've still wanted to start again. Whereas like if you just do something because it's hot right now, because I know so many people are not good mates, but there's plenty of people I've met over the years who they were the E comm guy in 2018. Then when crypto became hot, suddenly they didn't give a about E comic. They just wanted to jump on the next rug, pull and do whatever was ethically acceptable at the time, which in hindsight was borderline fraud like a lot of people. Whereas if they actually cared about building products and brands and building an E commerce business, they'd still be doing that. They wouldn't just be jumping on the next potential get rich quick thing. Well, I've seen so many people just live that lifestyle.

We were chatting just before we jumped on saying like you, you're the type of guy like in the past you struggle to do things for. Do something for longer than a year or two because you get bored. Like he's got that really creative brain that you just want to, you know, experience new. How is that, you know, challenged you with space goods looking at it like a 5, 10 year plus project.

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm really good at zero to one. And like, I don't mean zero to one million but like zero to one is in like. There's the book Zero to one. I think Peter, Peter Thiel wrote it. The guy that. What did he invest in? Fucking did he? Was he on the PayPal founding team? You know the guy, he's like some billionaire forgotten the details. But he wrote a book called Zero to one and it's the same principle, it's just idea to execution. I guess you could call it a million quid in revenue as well because that's like a certain proof point. So I've always been really good at that. I don't know why I've struggled to stick with things. I think it's because I have so many ideas. But also they say your brain doesn't fully form till 25. So in my early 20s, I feel like I was definitely a lot more chopping and changing, wanting to try new things. But then probably my most successful friend, which is arguably Fred from Sunuchi, has only ever done one brand, and I'm jealous of the fact that his brain works like that because mine certainly didn't. Yeah, but everyone's different, right? And everyone's story is different, so. But yes, come back to the question. I'm very conscious, though, in hindsight, that the only way to really compound your efforts, you know, in one thing, is to stick with it for multiple years. But look at any big business that sold for a big, big amount. Any brand that's truly recognized on a global scale, they've done it for a year or two, or even three. It's probably five to 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what you. We were just chatting you 16 months in now. Space goods.

Yeah.

Has there been any inkling of, or itch of wanting to do anything different? Because you got the content, you got, you got your, you know, documenting the journey at your podcast. And even with that, like, at times, gets difficult to manage both things.

Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, the pod is still very much like a very casual side thing for me, although I always think there's way more I could do with it and actually enjoy doing it. It just comes down to time. I'm just constantly too busy, which isn't a credit to my ability to be busy, because I think it's more impressive if you're not busy because you've built a proper business and outsource and delegate and so on. But even with that, there's always more shit. And it just feels like I'm balls deep in the trenches right now. What was the question?

I don't even know, man.

Just rambling.

We got to get into the, obviously the space goods build and, and everything you've done there, because I think it's awesome products, the reasoning that you moved into that space is really cool. But to talk about the big event in your life where I, I guess it probably would have changed you completely. Going through that, that experience with, with Neon and everything that happened with that. Talk to me about how you started that business because obviously I've heard the story. You know, when I, When I think it was you, I would listen to. Joe sent me your first podcast ages ago and listen to it. I thought, fuck, man, we've dealt with some. Some shit at Happy Skin company. We've had some big problems go wrong and I just remember thinking at those moments, fuck me. Does anyone understand how hard it is? But arguably from the stories that I've heard in like, the E. Comm circles are pretty small. I've never heard someone have to go through as big of a crisis and come out the other side.

Yeah, neither of us, which really pisses me off. So I think, why did I. Why did I get chosen for that test? But then there's also people dying of cancer in Syria, so it could be worse. Yeah, try and maintain that perspective. Yeah, that was pretty fucked up. I mean, I definitely, I think my perspective on the world changed after that because, I mean, long story short, it was financially financial fuckery because I lost a lot of money in the businessmen's administration, which taught me a lot. But it was also a social media onslaught, which was the other part of it. And like death threats for like six months and the fucking tabloids at my door. That's how complicated this got.

So for like, because obviously most of our, most of our audience audiences in Australia, for the people that don't know Neon beach custom neon sign business, you scaled it to what, like £10 million.

A year plus in the first year? Yeah. To my knowledge, I was the first neon sign brand on Instagram, basically. And it was perfect timing. Covid Massive aov. Everyone sat at home with extra money because they're not out drinking somewhere. And it was a perfect product for Instagram. This is back when organic Instagram is still a thing. The ads were still a bit cheaper. Covid Boom. Massive AOVA just scaled super quick and I just made the sign because I wanted a midnight city logo and a neon sign. So being me, I thought, well, let's just fucking start a brand. Great idea. I'm running a jewelry business, which is pretty smooth, nicely set up, automated cash flowing. Let's just start fucking neon brand. And I guess if people want the full, full story, go watch episode one of my podcast, which the reason I made that was there was so much shit, just like rumors and shit. I was like, I'll just put a podcast out, see what happens. And it went down really well because I think people were surprised how honest it was. And probably the first podcast ever from a guy that had previously posted a supercar on the Internet that was actually like self deprecating and talking about something bad that happened rather than just how amazing I am, which a lot of people on the Internet tend to do.

Because usually those ones just disappear off social media.

Yeah.

For ages. And they come back, they disappear for six to 12 months. They come back with a completely new Persona and just act like it didn't happen.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, go and watch the full episode on that. But what a fuck.

Sorry. What would a fuck with me if I was in your position was the decision you made, like, so you wanted to move your production from, I'm assuming, China to the uk.

Yeah.

A decision that in your head, you.

Think I'm doing the right thing, all this. Yeah, yeah.

I'm doing the right thing for the business and for the customers. And that decision is what actually led to everything getting fucked up. Do you feel like if you didn't move production that China, like, from China, you would have had those, like, those issues or things would have been all right?

Yeah, I mean, hindsight is 20 20, isn't it? Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Yeah. I think if I didn't move production, it would have been all right. I also think if I had experience around me, which I now have, which I didn't then at all, was the only shareholder, was the only person that basically wasn't in the Philippines involved in the business. So, yeah, you know, hindsight's 20 20, I guess you learn a lot. Yeah. Potentially could have been avoided, but it's also horribly complicated. Supply chain for that. For that business model anyway, which is why I think there's one or two. I know there's a big one in Australia, custom neon. I used to speak to that guy. He was really interested into what happened to me, so just spoke to him afterwards. And then there's one called Yellow Pop, I think does all right. But, yeah, no, I don't think anyone's really smashed it. I can't see any brand getting to, like 100 mil. Even though at the time before shit went wrong, I was speaking to, like, private equity. They were like, we think we can scale this to a billion in revenue. I was like, fucking hell, let's go. So, yeah, it was a real cliff in terms of. I thought, jesus Christ, I'm on to, like, the next fucking gym shark here.

How long has it taken you to. And maybe. Maybe you still haven't fully. Obviously, it's. Everything's a process.

I'm still not over it. Yeah.

Like, how do you get over something so big? Because it's like you just fucking. Everyone's like, they're saying, we can make this a billion dollar brand. You're seeing revenue numbers and profit numbers like you've never seen before. So you just. As you're going up on that high, everything gets taken away and I know for you. And this is another thing you've been very open with and like, for anyone that's interested, go check out Matt. Shit. It's really cool. Content and like how raw and open you are. You've, you've said for like since you were a child, mental health has always been a big struggle for you. And then you get all these Internet heroes throwing out death threats because I didn't get a, you know, two three, two, three pound, 200 pound sign.

Yeah.

How do you, how do you get through that mentally? Who do you lean on?

I definitely didn't very well, to be honest. Yeah, I mean like I'm diagnosed being bipolar type to all this and I hate, I don't take any medication. I disagree with a lot of it. I've always struggled with my mind, massive ups and downs. And it's one of those things where in hindsight I was, oh, fuck. Because I went to a psychiatrist like three years ago. I think maybe just after this happened, two and a half years ago, I was like, can you just fucking assess me and do all this shit, all these brain scans or whatever. And it was like, yeah, someone should have told you years ago that it's not normal to have these ups and downs. But I think a lot of the ups had been how I'd built businesses. And I would say I'm incredibly creative. I always credit my mind as being my greatest gift, my biggest curse, because I'm a massive overthinker, constantly moving a thousand miles an hour in my mind, which probably most men aren't willing to admit. But that's just the truth for me. Probably like a lot of creatives, artists types, I don't know. But then, yeah, I've always struggled with my mind probably ever since I was a kid, really. Just like thoughts that don't really want to be there, but they are about certain things. And then yeah, this just fucking put me in a downward spiral really, because I'd felt pretty good about myself probably since I dropped out of uni until like my mid-20s, like a five year period because things had just felt like a progressive up the whole time. And then this was like some massive trauma that happened and I probably had a lot of PTSD from it, to be honest. But yeah, I guess it was like a probably a six month period of like in the trenches trying to solve this. And until ultimately I put the business into administration. They got bought out and then that was basically that. And then, yeah, broke up with my girlfriend.

She didn't even really know what Was going on.

Huh, Nice. In hindsight I actually think other than.

How did you live in such a.

Illness or like living in a war torn city in Syria or something, which is definitely worse. I don't think it can get much worse for like a young self made entrepreneur, to be honest, because the social media aspect of it, which is bad enough in itself for like people that go on Love island and get hate, like I can understand that now because I had similar shit, but also the financial side of it, having to fucking still try and sort out a business deal with customers, It's a pretty brutal combination.

And as well, to make it even worse, like you were the guy like posting in his Ferrari like six months beforehand, going through all this now.

Yeah, that didn't help. When people make a Facebook group with a picture of you with your convertible Ferrari with blonde hair, they can make a lot of assumptions, which I don't blame them for.

But so like the day you sign the deal and it's done, right finally after the six months of fucking hell, how do you feel that moment, that day where it's like, at least it's fucking done. You've lost out on however many million you could have made on an exit.

March 2021. All a bit of a blow in hindsight, to be honest. I think at this point I just accepted things that got so fucked that I had to be pragmatic about the potential outcome and the like. The thing I was trying to avoid, it was the best outcome really. Customers got their money back, the business got a lot of money pumped into it. I had to be an employee of that business for six months with a little bit of equity left. But yeah, it was a far cry from where I thought I'd be six to 12 months earlier when I thought, now we're gonna get big investors involved, gonna sell this for 50 million quid in like two years.

That, that experience, being a, an employer of your own business. How does that feel?

Just very shit. First time I'd ever had a salary, you know, since I, since I'd quit uni and when I was working at the burger bar, it was a decent salary but just a very weird situation. Yeah, it was a strange period. Yeah, I was like back then as well.

Were you still in lockdown at this period or.

Yeah, this was like still pretty much full lockdown. I was living with my long gone ex girlfriend. I was about three stone heavier compared to what I am now. I was just in. Yeah, I mean I was in a really shit space mentally and physically, but I still just showed up every day, which I think is fairly commendable. In hindsight. It's probably one thing I give myself credit for. I could have just shut my laptop and off to Bali and hoped it all went away. But problems tend to get bigger if you don't deal with them. So I've learned it's got to give.

You some confidence now that whatever happens in the rest of your business career, that if you handled that at that age in lockdown where everyone is already struggling with mental health and then you can get through anything.

Yeah, I do genuinely think that nothing really stresses me now apart from like thinking about the past, which I need to do less. But yeah, I'm just like, everything's solvable. You just gotta have a dog in you.

Because there's this quote I heard, I can't remember which podcast when I was doing my research it's from, but like.

You'Ve done way more research than the one we're gonna film after this.

Oh no, it, I know. Just, it's just my.

Make it up. Yeah, yeah.

And I just.

Good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I do research. But there was a quote. The quote was something like, oh, whenever you know you're too happy for too long or things are going too easily, you feel like, when's this gonna up? And there's this voice that you know, I'm too happy, things are going too smoothly. They start to think when's it going to go wrong? And I want to ask you, like, do you believe in the law of attraction and how these things can become like a self fulfilling prophecy and.

Yeah, I mean I do. I do believe in like spirituality and like law of attraction and shit. But I also just believe in like action and reaction and just I guess certain things are out of your control, which a lot was with that business, which is why it went wrong. And I think sometimes you just fucking draw a short straw and you have to deal with it. But I suppose the thing I'm, I've tried to do, I probably to get better at is try and see the positive and everything. Like there's this fucking. I read a lot of stoicism after that, which I'm still not stoic enough at all because I'm a fucking overly romantic like deep thinker. And maybe if I was truly stoic, I'd be a lot more straight and just steady a lot of the time, which I'm trying to be. But it's, it's not a quote, it's a, it's a way of thinking Called Amor fati, which is like the general idea is a love of anything that happens, including suffering and loss. And you see it as, at the very least, good if not necessary. So I want to get that tattooed on my arm or some shit.

I guess it's like life is happening for me, not to me.

Yeah, exactly. It's like Tony Robbins says all that shit. And at the very least it's a useful belief, even if it's not true. And it's like. I think it's why a lot of people are religious and I feel like a lot of people become religious. I've always been an atheist. I would say I'm have been spiritual historically, whatever the that means. But maybe as I've got older, it's. I'm science. But maybe, maybe there has to be a God because at least, I don't know, it's kind of. It's the only comforting way to accept life. Because it's so weird.

Yeah.

Being alive. I. I guess that can happen to you.

I've never, I've. I, like I was raised like, you know, I'm my grandparents from. From Ireland. Like I was raised Catholic, pretty religious, but like my mum wasn't or anything like that. From as soon as I really could think for myself, I never really got religion. I never really, you know, bought into that. But I guess the way of, like the way I think now is in my own way of religion because like, if it's a choice to believe, like everything that happens happens for a reason and like life's happening for you, not to you, that's a religion in of itself. And it's like there's no proof that what I'm saying or thinking right now is the right way to go about it. But is it a better, you know, is it a better belief system for me, my mental health and everything happens randomly and I've got no control over. And it's all fucked.

Yeah, exactly.

You go through. How do you. How do you get over being the one that has to do with this. This shit, you know, draws that.

Sure, yeah. I suppose I've. I've tried to try to look at it that way. There's always like the, the cynical fucking pessimistic cunt in me. That's like, why'd that have to happen? You know, if that had never happened, I could be here by now. But that's not a useful belief, you know, you can't think that way. Even though I do a lot of the time. But also, like I've said, there's plenty of people that never even, I guess, had the internal belief to even start anything. So they're probably worse off to begin with, which is most people.

Now, it's a stupid question. I'm sure you've been asked like fucking 100 times on podcasts, but why do you feel like. Because. Why are you so hard on yourself? Do you know? Because, like, I'm naturally, like, I feel like I've created this system, this from. From. From, you know, high school years to protect myself where I'm naturally the opposite. I won't let myself believe something bad. Like, you got to have the awareness of, like, what you're doing wrong and where your weaknesses are so you can improve. But why would I let a bad thought into my head and spiral? Do you know what I mean?

I think it's just genetic predisposition to some extent. I think my certain people are just, I guess more naturally negative or not even necessarily negative, but they ponder things a lot, which can be painful, especially if you can't control what you're thinking about. And it's a past event, which I'm definitely guilty of. So, yeah, there's probably that. I think it's genetics. Like my brother would never be. I don't think he would ever struggle with that as much. Even though we're related, just different people. Some people are naturally more. I'm not a negative person. I always call myself like a cynical optimist. I think I'm a. I'm a pragmatist at this point. Maybe I used to be slightly deluded in terms of thinking everything will always be perfect and so on. But, yeah, maybe it's that. Just genetics to some extent.

The bipolar diagnosis that, that you got, what looking back and reflecting, like, looking back at your life, what answers did that give you and realize, ah, that makes a lot of sense.

It was probably more because, like. And I actually preface anything I say about mental health and, like, I hate labels and all this shit, but, like, people that say that mental health issues aren't real are just lucky enough to have never experienced them. It's like saying cancer's not real. Just, I don't know, like, eat the tumor or something. Like, it's obviously real. I think it's harder for people to understand, including myself, how you can label something when it's in your mind rather than in a broken leg or something. But, like, there are literal brain scans of people, which I've had, that have even adhd, depression, whatever, and it's. It is. It's a real Thing. But I think the problem with society these days is I think a lot of people who just don't go to the gym, drink wine every day, do fucking coke every weekend, have a job they hate, take antidepressants, including my ex girlfriend. I can say that now, two years on, when actually they're just not fucking going to the gym. You're not depressed, you're just feeling depressed. You don't suffer from clinical depression. There's a difference. So I think there's an epidemic of people that put labels on things that aren't valid and take pills that they shouldn't take. So that's the first thing. But that said, yeah, I mean, I got diagnosed being bipolar, which basically means massive ups and massive downs. So when I was younger there was way more ups. And it's kind of. And I did notice it. I used to do stupid shit like I would fucking. I mean, an element of it just being young and having access to some money. But I would remember just getting a flight to Australia like with one hour's notice. Just stupid shit like that, which most people like, oh, you got to plan something. I would buy a new car every two months and just like lose money on it and then buy another one, kind of like gambling. And then I would start a new brand every two months or a drop shipping website. So I guess it kind of explains shit like that. But then also, yeah, like, I'd often really gone through dark places in my mind, even when I was a kid had been like, I don't fucking want to be here anymore. And like, I just thought that was normal, but I guess it's not and it's not healthy. But yeah, I'd always dealt with it. What was the question, the diagnosis?

I recently, like within like the last few months found out that I've got adhd and I fucking never knew my whole life. And then finding out because like I had, you know, the way my brain works. I truly believe that's been a superpower in my life. Sure, I've never been good at being an employee and I've always said this, like, I can do anything I want to do, but I can't make myself do something I don't want to do.

Yeah.

And that's been a great superpower. But in times it's got gotten me into trouble and made me, you know, really unhappy in certain situations. So I've been able to build and create a life that it serves me. But I remember thinking when I, when I found that out, like, I was actually a little Bit upset about it because I thought, and this is going back to the whole delusional, you know, story you tell yourself. I'm like, I just thought my brain was special and then I realized it's adhd. But it also made me forgive myself for a lot of the negative things that I, you know, have always known I've got to work on, but for some reason just couldn't. Like, you know, waking up early, being on time, you know, sticking to things that I don't enjoy. Being a person that's naturally hard on yourself, at least having a diagnosis, do you feel like it's allowed you to be a little bit kinder to yourself and forgive yourself for some of those thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean I still probably rather in some ways not experience some of the, some of the downs. I mean I think the business going tits up kind of spiraled me like I'd never really experienced much of the downs until that happened. And then, yeah, I don't know, just regularly feeling pretty fucking low and hard on myself. But also I guess gifted in some ways with the ability to dream up new shit and act on it, which, you know, I guess a lot of people will spend their whole life talking about something I've always been very much a doer to, like probably an extreme level. So if I say I'm doing something like the next day, it exists sort of thing. So yeah, there's pros and cons for you.

Now. What do you think truly makes you happy?

Feeling like I'm getting better. That's probably the main thing. Progress, progression. Yeah, I think that's, I think actually it's impossible as a man especially. And I'm gonna get canceled because we live in this strange liberal woke culture.

London's crazy bro. Even more so we realize as a.

Man I think you have to be making progress or you cannot be fulfilled. And like, I don't know if happiness is even the goal. I feel like fulfillment and purpose is the go, go, you're going to be happy. But I think to be happy you have to be unhappy and stressed sometimes. Otherwise not happiness, it's just existence.

What's the difference in your mind between happiness and fulfillment? That's something I've thought about a lot.

I mean fulfillment could be. For example, I got into like running like a year and a bit ago, so I got kind of. And I ended up losing loads of weight and running this like really quick marathon. And then I was ah. I mean I used to be a rower for like 10 years. So I've always been quite, I guess, genetically gifted in terms of endurance sports and shit. I'm going to Switzerland on Sundays doing altitude camp for an ultra marathon I'm doing. But I did this 24 hour group run like two months ago. It's. You run for 24 hours non stop as a group in this like trail loop. So you run about 80km each, which maybe doesn't sound a lot, but you're not allowed to sleep. And it's the middle of the fucking night, it's pissing rain. But I was running at like 3am with a soaked T shirt on. My fucking toes are bleeding just listening to like a David Goggins speech or some. Yeah. And I felt pretty fulfilled during that moment. I don't know if I was happy, I was in a lot of pain. But it felt purposeful and it felt like a, an endeavor worth doing for whatever reason. I mean most people could probably never understand that. But I think I understand why people do like up endurance because. Yeah. And I've started to get into it more recently because it's a thing that's offline and it's way more tangible and I don't know like going to that dark place in like a hard sport. And I do a lot of CrossFit and now as well, like high rocks and so on. I always feel fulfilled when my heart rate's like 185 and I feel like I'm about to die.

Yeah.

I don't know. So I think you're not happy in that moment. You're in pain and suffering. But I feel deeply fulfilled. Probably more than any other time in my life actually. Unless you were like a beautiful girl you like, that's a different story.

Running's crazy, man. Like I've, I've done, I haven't done a full mar. I've done, I've been, I've got, I've got really into running, like in, in lockdown and as well. And I've done halves and, and they're fun. I want to do a Mara. But recently I did this charity run, was only 7 1/2 K. So short. But I didn't train for it. I went out the night before. I barely slept. I got there to the event late. I wasn't like, I'm just gonna run this with my brother. And you know, I somehow snuck in right at the front. I'm like, you know what, I'm here, let me just push myself and see how fast I can run it. And it was only like probably like 4 minute tens. Or something buttoned with no prep. I was absolutely. From about three k's in.

Yeah.

And I wanted to stop so bad, but for whatever reason I just kept one like, next step, next step, next step. And I have probably haven't felt that good for ages.

Yeah, I know.

You mean what, what's, what's, what's the thoughts inside your head when you're, when you're, when you're on one of these like really big endurance events?

Well, I've done many years, so like the main thing I did was I was basically a fat fucker or some actually that fat. But I was like, fuck, that's what I am now. Like a year and a bit ago. And I just, I told myself I'm not a runner. Like I'll be the. If we go on a group run, like 5k, I'd be like fucking walking like 3k in. But then I just, I was like, fuck it, I need to lose weight. Just broke up my ex girlfriend. Let's just like go demon mode. So I just started running consistently and I started just very consistent, like every day. And then I did like a 17 minute 5K. I was, I'm pretty fucking quick now. And then someone said, well, but you can't run a sub 3 hour marathon because that's like a milestone that loads of people train like their entire life for. As in like non professional athletes. I was like, all right, gone, then I'll do that. And then I tweeted saying I would do it and if I didn't do it, I'd give a thousand pounds of charity for every minute. So I put a lot of pressure on myself. And then, yeah, running that was like a fucking spiritual experience because at halfway I wanted to stop and I'd never run more than 30k and the marathon's 42.2k. And I knew I was on pace at like 129. First half I thought, fucking, I'm blowing it. But then the second half, I swear I like had a. I think I had like a playlist with like David Goggins in my ears. I love that cunt. And I ran like 10 minutes quicker in the second half or like 8 minutes quicker than end up running 252 for the full thing. And I swear like the last 2K, that was like special. You earn like the pain of experience. I think it's the hardest I ever, ever push myself physically. I think for the last 10k I thought I was going to have to like stop, but you just find another gear and there's something, like, really primal about that. And then when you finish, it's almost like, fuck, I want to keep going.

Yeah, you finish and you straight away think, when's. When's the next time I can do this?

Yeah. I feel like you earn that pain, like, you earn that experience, that euphoria for, like, all the training and so on, and. I don't know. So I've just found a real affinity with, like, hard. I mean, I've always been into, like. I used to row for, like, many years at a pretty elite junior level and so on, but I just don't get that from going to the gym to, like, get a chest pump. There's something about endurance. Maybe I'll do an Iron man or something next. I don't know. But I've. I've found a love for it. And it's the only time where my overactive mind just, like, shuts up and you can.

And everything quiets down.

Yeah.

That they took it. The run is high, but it's like, with running, it's grueling on your body. Like, I did a half. Almost couldn't work walk for a week.

Yeah.

And, like, your blisters are that bad. And, like, I did a half marathon in, like, probably the same pace as you, like, an hour and a half. There's no way I could have run another in that again. But it's like, there's a day that I know I'll do that for you, that next big event. Why do you feel like these big physical challenges, and I think it is a male thing as well. Why do you think these big physical challenges help, you know, upstairs, help inspire you to become better?

I think it's just, like, there's something about. Partly because most of business these days is online, and it's so. Feels like, so untangible in a way. Like, it's just numbers on a screen, and I just feel like a fucking robot or like some. Just like a lump of flesh staring at the screen all day. So doing something physical with your body, I think, reminds you that you're actually a fucking human. And, like, you can feel. I don't know. I just. I like the. The raw human element of doing physical. And I really should spend more time in, like, nature and stuff. I probably should move out of the city and, like, live in a hut somewhere. So. Yeah, I think that's why. I also think, especially if you get good at something, that confidence and momentum and mindset translates into anything else because, like, sounds, like corny, but it's like, well, I didn't think I could run a sub 3 marathon. Everyone said I couldn't. Then I did. So it's like, well, I could obviously do it, do other stuff. I mean, it's not. Not like that's the first thing I'd ever achieved. But especially if you lose your confidence because of a situation like I did, I think that was quite significant. Admit in me just being like, oh, I'm back. I don't know. And I got like, super shredded. And as well, I was in like, silly, silly shape last summer.

You mentioned, obviously it was after you broke up with your girlfriend. I feel like that's one of the biggest motivated for motivators. Motivators for guys. Even more than making money, like half the time guys want to make money so they can get girls.

I think love and romance and, like, females are like the ultimate driving force. Ultimately, if you break it down, if you ask why, like five times, why do you want to make money? So I can have stuff and feel secure. Why do you want to do that? Like, it ultimately comes down to probably so I can have a family with a beautiful woman one day. I mean, I've always been like a hopeless romantic is what I would call myself. Not hopeless because it's often been very success, successful, but I'm just. I'm like. I listen to like, the 1975 Laney fucking five source, all this shit. I'll also listen to like, Drake and Gunner and Lil Baby, and I'm not afraid to. To have both or like Taylor Swift or some shit. I think it's all great. But, yeah, I don't know. I've always been, like, creatively inspired by, I guess, a girl. Whether it's a real girl or a version of someone I think exists, which has happened before. I don't know. I'm just. I don't know what it is. I always feel like I'm driven by, like, this movie version of my life in the future which may or may not ever exist. And yeah, I fall in love like once a year. I think that's fair to say.

Do you fall out of love fast as well?

Depends who's watching this person say, I guess. I guess I have done. I think relationships is hard, particularly for entrepreneurs, because more than likely, unless the girl runs a business, which some of them do, but I haven't come across it as often, they probably don't understand you. And I think that's hard. Especially when I was living with my ex at the time when everything was going wrong and I Don't know. In hindsight that's like. That was a real. I learned a lot in that relationship, which is probably super valuable about like not living together too soon, actually having shared interests beyond just being drunk together, seeing the world a similar way, being politically similar. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I don't know. Where was I going with this?

Let's, let's, let's just talk. Early on in that relationship, how long were you together? That, that one.

Only like 18 months, which is like long for me.

The first, however long, say not the first half of the relationship. Everything's going good.

I was young and dumb then as well. Now I'm a bit older and slightly less dumb now.

Being in that relationship that you've romanticized in your head, like it's what you wanted. What are your levels of ambition? Like when you're in the relationship, you've already got the girl. Do you find you had less ambition?

Interesting debate. I've seen it a million times where a guy falls in love with a girl and like takes his foot off the gas a little bit. And I've been there before. That happened to me for sure. Like I got comfortable. I'm not going to say if I wasn't with that girl, the business would have gone differently, but maybe the outcome could have been slightly altered in hindsight. But at the same time now I actually think being with the right girl could be a. Could 10x. I honestly do. And yeah, I can't comment whether or not I've found that girl yet, but. So you're with someone now or that's potential.

Potential.

It's too soon.

Yeah.

She might watch this.

I feel like it's. Yeah, it's like. Right?

Yeah.

You see it so often. Guys, like you said, take the, take the foot off the gas and then as soon as someone breaks up with the partner, then they go 10x again.

Yeah.

It's an interesting thing.

Dog season, they just become a killer.

But it's because it's, it's like it just goes. It's like you hear people, you know, they do the 100 million dollar exit. That's what they always want and they do it. Then they're depressed. It's like once you attain that, you know, imagine that thing that you've wanted for so long and you realize it doesn't change anything that I feel like that's where gets messy. Falling in love with the process, I feel like is a much more sustainable thing because like otherwise you're just going to be. Keep chasing These bigger goals, big goals, big goals, more beautiful girls.

The goal posts always move. So even from like a year ago, if you said the brand to be where it is now, I probably back then and said, oh great, that's sick, that'd be amazing. But now by default, because it's there, I'm like, ah, not fucking doing enough, it's not big enough, we haven't grown enough.

You know, everyone's like that. Do you have a number? Do you have a position where, like right now that you feel like you'd be satisfied with the business?

I think this is a really interesting question because there's a few sides to this, I think. Firstly, everyone that starts in entrepreneurship for some reason plucks out 100 million. It just seems to be like a billion. Silly because I'm not elon musk. But 10's not enough because I heard someone on the Internet that made 10 million, so I'm going to say 100 yet. They haven't even made 20k yet, so they have no perspective on how actually ridiculously, statistically rare that is to make 100 miles. I know one of my investors sold a business for nine figures, didn't personally make nine figures because he had loads of VC backing and so on, but still did super well out of it, like multi eight figures. Personally, I know a few guys that have reached that level, don't know anyone personally that's made 100 million personally. But yeah, people throw these numbers around but they've not made 100k a million, whatever it is. Yeah. And act like it's fucking easy. So that's one side of it. The other side of that question is, I think if you asked me that when I was 24, I probably would have said a billion or something. But because I've now experienced how shit can go wrong as well, I would say my. Not that I'm less ambitious, I may be more pragmatic about like taking money off the table along the way rather than it all being all or nothing sort of attitude, which I think is a slightly less mature and I hate the word realistic but pragmatic view. So in other words, I would rather if someone said to me, now you can guarantee 10 million or you can flip a coin for 100, I'd probably say guarantee 10 because I've seen what it's like to think you're gonna have everything and then it can all be different in six months. Like just look at like fucking rising ad costs. And I say this from like a. I think a wise, more experienced operates operational perspective rather than a. Because I'm never going to be a cynical kind of. And be like, oh, stuff's not going to work. I think you have to have a bit of delusional optimism. But I think it's also valuable to be able to see around corners a little bit more now, which I certainly can because of problems I've had in the past which now have experienced myself, but also people around me that have been there and done that. So, yeah, there's also two parts because investors have asked me this. I've been speaking to, like VC investors recently about potentially whatever, and they say, like, what's the vision for the brand? And for me it's twofold. So, like we haven't really come onto the brand yet, which maybe we'll start now.

That's all now.

Yeah, yeah. Well, first I've got. This isn't a real tattoo, by the way, because it looks like it's the psilocybin chemical symbol, which is from ink box and I put it on wrong. So now it's like it's. It's basically leaked. So it looks like someone's drawn on my arm. It'd be there for about a month. But basically I started microdosing and I'm. I'll go on that tangent now, but I'll come back to what I was going to say. I've started. I started microdosing. When I so post that business failure, I was in a shit headspace. I've always been interested in nootropics supplements, broadly. Stuff to make you feel and perform better. And then also I'd always been interested in magic mushrooms, broadly. I'd been to Amsterdam when I was 19 where it's legal, but then I'd also gone down a rabbit hole of microdosing, which never heard of before, which is a subperceptual dose for psychedelic compounds such as psilocybin or lsd. Psilocybin is the one we're talking about because it's the compound in magic mushrooms. It's a natural substance as opposed to lsd, which is a synthetic. And now shit like mdma, considered a modern psychedelic, along with like ketamine and so on, all of which has blown up over the past sort of two years. And in Australia, where it was decriminalized for medical use, and in Canada and so on. Anyway, long story short, got really into that and I was like, if I could build a D2C psilocybin/microdosing business, that would change the world. And I'd probably become a billionaire. So that was like my back of fag packet vision. And that was the idea for I'm going to go into the mushroom space. And then I thought, well, I can't sell a class A drug on the Internet for very long if I don't want to go to prison, which I didn't fancy doing. But what I can do is build a brand and position it to be kind of the best legal alternative. So the idea for the product, which is rainbow dust, which I don't know if you can actually see it. I'll pick it up. The idea for this firstly was. The idea for this firstly was. It's. My vision was it's a legal alternative to a psychedelic microdose, which in other words means it's a. It's a host of eight different active ingredients that put together, imitate a microdose, which is kind of focus, energy, calm. They're like the kind of attributes you would say if you're microdosing psilocybin, at least in my experience, or to put it another way, kind of just like a really good coffee without the anxiety, which is actually very different because it's kind of night or day.

Well, I looked at. It's got literally everything you'd want in this blend, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's got a lot of. And then. So that was like the initial vision for the brand and products and I was like, I need to go into this. And there's a Japanese term called ikigai. I think that's how you say it. And it's like something that you can be paid for, something that the world needs, something that you're good at. And there's another one, but, like, basically the combination of your passion, financial opportunity, timing and like, what could be good for the world. Because I've always tried to do stuff that I think is like a net positive impact on society. Like, I could never sleep at night if I was scamming kids with the Forex course, because there's a lot of those people out there. I don't know how they deal with themselves, but with this I was like, fuck, I could actually do good for people and potentially change the world. So that was the initial idea. And then from a product perspective, I used to stack these ingredients, ashwagandha, lions, main, etc. And I can't swallow tablets. That's like a weird thing, being way too honest. In this podcast, I used to put these ingredients. I would unscrew a capsule from, like, my protein or whatever, put it into A blend with chocolate powder, basically. And that was like my version. And then I went to a manufacturer like, fuck, can we make this into like a legit, like authorized product that's legal and so on. And that became rainbow dust version 1, which is the product.

Yeah, like on that.

I've gone off topic there because the question originally is about numbers.

I don't even fucking.

So just to circle back to that very quickly, then we can go back to now. Yeah. So my vision. So that's what I said. There's two parts of the vision. The first part is I would genuinely love to be in this industry for like 30 years and have some impact in terms of consumerizing. Is that in a word, like bringing to the mass market some sort of psilocybin slash safe microdosing product. It probably won't look like a DTC business. I think it'd be more like hims kind of a telehealth company where it's like a pharmacy online. But the first step is build a brand, build a customer base, build some actual revenues and then it can get a bit more interesting. Because I'm not just going to sit there and be like, I want to change the world. But the steps towards that, I guess. But the pragmatic one is I would love to be in a position in a few years where I could fucking sell a chunk of the business or the whole thing for eight figures, whatever that is, and retire my parents and, you know, feel good about myself.

I've got ikigai tattooed on my leg.

Like really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of tattoos, I haven't got any tattoos.

Well, until last week when I got. I was in on a stag do and you can probably see it, actually. I got my marathon time tattooed on my ankle, but I think it's really shit quality because it's like basically come off. Not come off, but it's like it was.

You wear socks.

Really? It looks shit. Anyway.

Yeah.

That's my first time that.

Because especially when you're, you know, you've got this creative mind that thinks about a million things and like on this, I'm saying I'm probably not exactly the same, but I'm similar. You're not going to be able to work on something for, you know, more than two years if it's not some sort of alignment with your ikigai.

Yeah.

But at the same time as, well, everyone, every. Well, most decent people would love to, you know, have a net positive for the world, but realistically, you need to make money along the journey. Or you're not going to. We're not going to have the means to be able to do it. You're not going to have the freedom to be able to do it. So it just makes a lot of sense. But in terms of the whole business landscape we. You launched what, 2022.

Very different to you know, the end of April 22nd. Yeah, it's like 15, 16 months ago.

Almost a year and a half in post,Os. Post Covid.

Boom. Yeah, it's way harder.

What's, what's the main differences? Paint the picture for people that maybe have only been in E comm for a year or so. What's the main differences between, between E Commerce now and say five, six years?

Yeah. Fundamentally the North Star difference is it costs way more to get a customer, simple as that. So you need to have bigger product margins, you need to have probably more liquidity to start out with. I honestly don't have a fucking clue how anyone could start a brand with like 5 or 10k now. I mean there's probably people have done it maybe this way more skilled than I am, but it would take fucking ages. And you'd probably be, you couldn't hire anyone because you wouldn't have enough margin or whatever. So yeah, like I remember when I was running ads for, for our clothing stuff like the product was objectively worse than this. So is the website. We would get like 3 pound CAC on a new customer on like a 60 quid product.

Fucking nuts.

It's just that doesn't exist now, at least not to me or anyone I know. So yeah, that's the fundamental difference and that's a whole host of reasons is there's way more competition because more people have come into the market, big massive businesses as well as startups and mid market businesses, whatever. So ad costs have gone up but also consumers are way smarter because E commerce isn't new anymore. So they'll read reviews so you can't get away with something. Shit, they'll speak to their friends more. They'll probably compare to different brands, all this stuff. So everything has to be better. Your product, your website, your customer experience, your supply chain. Everything's just harder than it was basically.

Is this your first business with consumables?

Yeah.

What's the. Obviously the pros and cons. What's, what's. We'll go into the pros next because obviously it makes a whole lot of sense and if I was to launch a business purely a pure econ business, obviously I'm really into the podcasting stuff and all this space right now and I'm not looking to do anything. Well, I do too many things which you'll, which you'll find out soon. But it's like I wouldn't really want to launch another business that isn't, you know, consumable or at least heavily repeat purchase. Even though Happy Skincare is obviously the opposite to that. What's the negatives of starting a business like that at the beginning? Is it harder to build the traction at the start because maybe you don't have the high of these to be profitable from the first purchase? What's the negative? What the drawbacks of that model?

Well, I mean, firstly, just to clarify, I was very, I was very logical about. So that was my first idea. But then I thought, well, actually I want to do something that is a consumable so I can have a subscription element which I never had before. I want something that it's never going to be a super high ab, like athletic greens or some other stuff. But it's not super cheap either, like some 15 pound gummy brand. So it's like 49 quid, 39 subscriptions. So there's enough margin there and I want something that has a massive fucking product margin. So the product margin is like 90%. So it leaves a lot of room for ad spend basically. But I suppose the, the difficult stuff and I knew nothing about it a year and a bit ago, very fast learning curve. Although I did have experience launching brands obviously, so I was very conscious about, wanted to make it in the UK because I'd be less risky than just fucking making it in China and get something wrong. But yeah, huge problem I had at the start was just like trading standards, saying I was selling psilocybin because someone fucking reported me saying we're selling psychedelics because a lot of our marketing did mention that to begin with, which was probably a bit risky and it was. So we don't really talk about that anymore. So that was a huge thing. I think ultimately people, when people are taking something physically putting it in their body, there's always going to be room for subjectivity in terms of how effective it is, the efficacy of it. You cannot please everyone in terms of the effect, but also probably the flavor that should be the most if I had to pick out. One thing that people consistently complain about is they don't like the amount of sweetener or they think some people say it's too sweet, some people say it's not sweet enough, some people say it's too chocolatey, some People say it's not chocolatey enough. So you just fucking can't win. Although generally reviews are very good. I trust Pilot could be better. It's like four stars out of five. I'd like it to be like 4.5, but we'll fucking get there. But yeah, I think that's the hard thing is people want it to work, obviously, but it's a bit different to putting a T shirt on because that objectively is a T shirt. Whereas like if they don't feel focused, energy, calm, then you know they want the money back or it's a scam or whatever.

What's been the biggest, like on the hardest day on the space goods journey, like obviously nothing like you.

Everything feels like fucking. Just not hard at all compared to shit I've done before. But if I had to pick out one, Christ. I mean, probably like the first month when the Instagram account got disabled like three times. That actually wasn't why we had a lot of ads disabled because of that. It turned out because I wasn't using a link tree. So like it was some, some bot was just standard Instagram bot was crawling the website. I could not figure out. I thought I was getting targeted by a compet. I paid a kind of like 20 grand in Bitcoin to get it back like across those three times and I was just. I shouldn't say that, but yeah, so very expensive and stressful and I. Obviously your ads get turned off because your ads are all linked to Instagram. I was like, fucking hell. Just launched this new thing, we can't even run ads. So that was probably the worst part. Hasn't been any huge fuck ups yet because probably because I'm more experienced and it's a better business model anyway because we're not making bespoke neon signs that weigh a fucking ton and cost 300 quid. So.

And on that I know you went to like you raised some cash. Yeah, you raised some equity for that. What was the initial investment, if you're happy to share it, to get space goods off the ground? And how long from the initial idea? Because you said you moved pretty quickly with this shit. An ID from your head to reality. How much did you have to put and how long did it take from idea to fucking launch day?

Yeah, so two things there. So I raised 475k off my mates, which was. Had two reasons. Firstly, it's just more money. Secondly, and probably the more important reason was I didn't actually want to do it myself, but I didn't want A co founder. Because I just, my brain didn't work like that. So I was like, I saw it as a win win. I get people that are experienced, I get some more money to devote specifically to the business because I also learned from the previous business, don't put all your personal money into a business. Very different things. Learned that the hard way. So that was the first thing raised. That money. Did not need nearly 500k to launch this. Not at all. I try to think how much. We bought like 3,000 units of stock. I went from like the concept to product ready to go in like four and a half months, which was basically just the production time. So I guess relatively quick. I know I've met people that said, oh, we've been working on this for three years. I'm like, why the fuck you work on something for three years without getting out to market? It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the feedback you get when you launch it.

Do you think, you know, because I think, I think that is the fear of failure from them. Do you think because of, you know, the highs and lows you've gone through, you don't necessarily fear failure anymore?

I guess, yeah, in a way. But I've always, I've always just moved. The only way to get validation on idea is to launch it. You can talk about something for 20 million years and raise 100 billion quid. It would make a difference. If you don't get it to market and have people that buy it and give you feedback, then you don't have a business.

Yeah.

So I'm just always. And I've met loads of people just over the years that it's always supplements or some that takes a bit longer to develop. And then I've been working on this for sampling it. We're going to launch it next year. I'm like, no, you might be dead next year. Just launch the business. Yeah. And get some feedback.

Yeah. And moving quick is. Seems like one of your biggest strengths, the creative sides. One of your biggest strengths. What would you say is your biggest strength and weakness and where have you had to kind of work on in terms of where were your weaknesses? Moving into a bigger, more serious business. Not necessarily bigger in terms of revenue numbers, but like you said, you want to set it up with a little bit more structure.

Yeah, it's a much better business in that sense. I think my biggest strength has always been 0 to 1 and I guess creatively as well. Like I did, did all the branding visual stuff myself, like the website we've got a new website going live next week so. Website is a piece of shit to be fair but I still did it on myself so I guess just coming up with the idea but also having a commercial view on it like I'm not. I've never been like a true creative that didn't understand business at all because I think I've managed maybe I was to start with but over the years I've have an in depth understanding of it Might look nice but like where's the margin, what's the CAC likely to be, what's the ltv, what's the repeat rate and all this. I've got a decent blend of just creating a product that is commercially viable is what I would say because everything I've done has, has worked. Granted one of them went wrong along the way but it worked. The economics made sense and we grew the business. So fortunately I've never launched anything that was a complete flop and since I was like 18 so yeah that's probably my strength. I think my weakness is wouldn't say I'm particularly organized. I'm always like 25,000 Internet tabs open. Probably don't finish tasks. I always start tasks and then start fuck another one. And even recently like I launched this discord I was like fucking chatting and setting up discord when I was meant to be on some call earlier. So I'm like trying to do five things at once. I'm terrible at that. Wouldn't say I'm particularly good at managing people because I just become friends with everyone that works for me.

That's a challenge when you're a business owner in your twenties.

Yeah I'm way too like as well yeah just chatty and like probably way too just chill with people because I've never had a corporate background I've never worked in a corporate office never wore a suit to work any of that shit. Which probably has a lot of pros in many ways but like I'm so anti corporate jargon I just even to like investors and shit I've been speaking to recently like I'll just swear like mass. I'll just swear loads on a call because it's just how I speak which I think has pros and cons because it's like authentic but authentic. I might offend some people.

I wanted to ask you on that stuff because like obviously it's different raising like raising, raising equity with like your mates and friends you know in business but do you have any hesitations and and this is something that I've always had on my mind in terms of if we ever want, if we wanted to get investment or VC money, it's like do I want anyone to report into or have to answer?

Yeah, I've learned a shitload about this. I knew nothing about raising money a year, a year and a bit ago and I've learned a fuckload about it. It just by speaking to angel investors I have now that have dealt with institutional money, venture capital, private equity, all the differences with their. That stuff like yeah, it's very simple raising money from angels which could be your mates, could be your family members. Not in my case because I have no money but mates, network, whatever, that's very different. It gets a lot more complicated when it's institutional money. So like a VC private equity big fund, they'll want a lot more control. They'll put a lot more like a liquidation preference in which I didn't know what that meant before but can be very risky as a founder. So yeah, I'm still speaking to a lot of investors because I also think it's a very naive kind of early stage mindset to think you have to own the whole thing because at the end of the day your outcome as a founder say you owned 30% of 100 million pound business, that's a better outcome than owning 100% of a 10 million pound one. Not that that's that it's that linear and it's probably never going to be that simple. But that's the way I looked at it. I mean I still own like 80% of the business now but yeah, looking at options because I guess ultimately I think especially in 2023 would have been different in 2018, at least for me I think it would have been because ads are way cheaper. You can grow slower and profitably or you can fucking raise a load of money and try and go like hell for leather. How do we scale it to 50 million in like two years? There's no right or wrong answer. I'm. I'm not sure what I'm going to do or trying to do just yet. I think it's probably somewhere in between and I know people that have done both things. I've had guests on the pod that raised like 10 million quid for their brand but they're still not profitable but they're doing 30 million in revenue and they'll probably sell it to a strategic buyer like PNG or something. So I find all that world really interesting. I met a lot of investors, most of them waste your time unless they're like angel investors that have actually been an entrepreneur rather than someone just working in a fund when actually they've never run a business themselves, which can be quite difficult. But a lot of them are really nice in case they're watching.

How much of your business now is outside of the UK?

15%. We've been very focused on the UK to be fair. And I actually, I've made the mistake in the past of trying to scale internationally. Like I think back in the day when I was running, running Midnight City, we just, we ran ads like everywhere. There's literally worldwide Facebook ads that was shipped to Doha or whatever. But now just like we've got a warehouse in Europe now in Germany as well as our main one in the UK, we outsource all to A3PL but we've only spent money in the UK in terms of ads. And I also think for the rest of this year and next year that'll be the plan because I think you can compound your efforts a lot more. I also think you can build a business to 10 to 15 million pound revenue in one market, say in the UK, which is what I'd like to do next year. I think that makes it way more investable or even potentially early acquirable than a business that's doing 10 million but doing it in 20 countries and doing half a million in each. Because you can prove out a concept. This is my theory. You can prove out a concept in the uk. So we've spent all our money here, we focused, but we've never even touched Germany. Yeah, we could do the same in Germany. That's a much better story than we have a load of data in Germany. We already have proven our CAC is. I think a guy called James Mishreki came on my pod and he's raised like 20 million quid for his brand and he's a fucking like operational beast. And he said something which I'd never heard before but it really stuck with me. It's like it's way. But in terms of raising outside money, it's way easier to sell a vision than to sell your factual numbers. Because you can say, oh well, our CAC in America could be 20 quid because it's a proven market, we just need to raise 10 million to fucking go into Whole Foods or whatever rather than saying, oh, our CAC was 70 quid and it's rising but we're going to try and get it down. That's not as good a story. That narrative is very different. So I sound like I know what I'm talking about. But I don't still.

We're all still figuring this out.

Yeah.

And like I saw something. We'll wrap up because I'm conscious of time. Because we gotta.

Yeah.

Gotta go back to back in this. I can't even remember what I was gonna say.

Think of something good to close it out.

Think of something good to close it out. I wanted to ask you one more thing actually, because I thought it was really interesting hearing you speak about it. The metrics that matter most for your business. Now I know it's a random question to. To end on. I usually like to make it a little bit more philosophical or something, but the metrics that matter most for your business.

Three hours. Can we ask the problem?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are they and what do you look at now in terms of what drivers like, what key metrics do you look to improve? What. What do you look at to, you know, kind of get a picture of the success of the business or the health of the business?

Yeah, it's actually changed in like the last week. The North Star metric to me now is churn and retention/LTV. I know they're three different words, but it's all the same thing really. So lifetime value retention. We're a subscription focused business. So getting churned down and getting retention slash LTV up, that's the number one thing. Now number two would be NCPAs new customer characters. I feel everything else follows those two. Yeah, basically.

Yeah, it's a different, like it's a different world to when we, you know, got into E comm. You got to be a lot more, you got to be a lot smarter. You gotta, you gotta probably have a bit more in the bank. Oh, definitely to get started. But I still think there's fucking a lot of opportunity. I think a lot of people are gonna get turned off from launching e commerce businesses.

So I think probably by listening to this podcast. Don't do it, Let me do it.

Well, the thing is with that, as always, I always say about that because like, we have pretty real conversations on the podcast and a lot of it is about the challenges. But we, like I said, we still choose to do every day. You know, could run away and take a bit of cash and go have fun.

Yeah.

Sell forex courses.

Yeah, exactly.

Where's the best place for everyone to find you Midnight space goods? Where's the best place?

Yeah, at Mathushius, which is M A T T H U C I U S My second name is not who see us people thought it was it's a play on Confucius, the Chinese philosopher, which was a joke, like, four years ago, and it stuck. That's my username on Instagram, Twitter, and so on. At the Midnight. Pod is my pod on YouTube. And then space Goods is at Space Goods. But you can kind of find it all from any of those platforms.

And you ship to Australia with Space Goods, can you?

Yeah, we do. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice.

So see, people should get on it.

Get on it. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode or you got something out of it, do yourself a favor, do me a favor, do your friends a favor and share this with them, and they can come along on this journey with us. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.