2. CNN's Kerry Flynn

Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Inspire your audience and grow your company on Pinterest with a free business account. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. It's time to geek out. Hello and welcome to Geek Out with Matt Navarra, sponsored by Pinterest. I'm Matt Navarra.

And I'm Martin SFP Bryant. Now, what's the future of social media? That's a pretty broad question, but it's one we'll attempt to answer in this week's episode.

Yes, episode 2. I think it's fair to say that last week's show was pretty well received, which is really amazing. We were a bit nervous, but that's all gone well for us. So thanks for all of the feedback, folks. It's been amazing what people have been saying, and we're really looking forward to bringing you some other amazing special guests and some interesting topics of discussion.

Yeah, exactly. I suppose good feedback means we have to keep doing it.

We do, and hopefully we'll get to do a second season if it keeps on going as well as it is. So we'll keep you informed of progress on that front as well. So if you want to get in touch with us on Twitter, use the hashtag #GeekOutQuestions and you can find me there on Twitter as @MattNavarra.

And I'm @martinsfp on Twitter. So Matt, what have you been up to this week?

Another busy week of complete nerdy, geeky social media stuff. Nothing changes in my life, but I've been playing with a couple of new apps this week. There was one on Product Hunt called Quoted Replies. I think it's quite a small independent developer created where it allows you to kind of take the URL when you're on your iPhone or Android and then paste it into the app and it will download the media, the video to your device, which is a lot easier than many other sort of apps that do the same thing. So that was quite useful, Quoted Replies.

So yeah, my week has largely been pretty much heads down on work. But the most probably exciting thing was doing a bit of TV and radio punditry around the iPhone 11 launch. It was all fun and good and all great until this morning I was talking to a radio station about the iPhone and about Chinese import phones and all this kind of thing. Suddenly they had to cut me off because my phone connection was really, really bad. So you can have— I've got last year's top iPhone and it could be the best iPhone in the world, but if your phone signal's terrible, you still get chucked off on the radio. So there's still room for improvement in the smartphone space, even if the smartphones themselves are only getting slightly better cameras and things. Anyway, Matt, who's our guest today?

Well, I am really excited about our guest today because this is somebody that I've known for a number of years, and I've had the pleasure of her company on trips to the US when I've been to South By, and we've conversed on Twitter endlessly about geeky, nerdy stuff to do with social media. It's a great pleasure to have Kerri Flynn, CNN's new top media reporter. New job. Kerri, welcome.

Hey guys, thanks for having me, and such a lovely intro, Matt.

Well, I've got to butter you up because I want you to share this everywhere. That's what I'm trying here, if I'm really honest. No, seriously, it's great to have you on. And, uh, could you just tell, tell us a little bit about you and your background? Because obviously we're friends, we know, known each other for quite some time, but there's probably a lot of other people, maybe— I'm sure there's not that many that don't know who you are. So tell them a bit about what you've been up to and what you've done in the past.

Yeah, well, like you said, I have a new job, which is exciting. Uh, I recently joined CNN as a media reporter here, and I've worked at a handful of media companies in the last 5 years living in New York. 5 years since I graduated Um, it's kind of maybe a reason why I cover media now because I've worked at enough companies. My job before this was at a company called Digiday, which is a publication that covers media, marketing, and retail. Before that, I was at Mashable, which, uh, hopefully you guys still remember, is an awesome site that covers kind of tech and culture. Uh, before that, I was at a company called IBT. Before that, I was at HuffPost. Before that, I was at Forbes. Uh, and then I was in college. Uh, so yeah, I've worked at many a media company and had some incredible experiences. There's a reason I'm still in this world and now covering the media as an industry.

So I think it's fair to say that you are a qualified geek in the best possible sense.

For sure.

Definitely. I think when I joined this company, one of my colleagues was like, I'm so excited to work with you because you're like kind of weird. I was like, wow, like, thank you. Like, you know, don't take it the wrong way, but like, you like to geek out on things, you know, which is something I think some colleagues are like, oh, that's awesome. Like, you won't be like awkward and silent. Brilliant. You will literally talk to me about anything.

Well, before we head into the rest of the show, one thing I just remembered— I was in South by with Kerry, um, a few years back now this was, and I, I discovered she has an incredible talent which I still to this day don't know how she does, and I wish I could do it, um, where she will be talking to me or whoever she's with and doing about 3 or 4 other things whilst holding her iPhone in her right hand down almost by her knees and typing fully length essay messages in text messages or Messenger messages without even looking the screen once with almost a 0% error rate. I don't know how you can do that, but it's a skill you've got and it's a skill I wish I had.

That is something other people have picked up on. I remember my uncle was the first one who like really called it out to me. And it's something I also do with like laptops. Like I have that weird skill of like, you know, us having a conversation right now and I can like kind of type in real time, which is extremely useful when being a reporter, right? Though at the same time, it's nice to just concentrate on one thing at one time. At times.

You've clearly got a dual-core brain.

It's more than dual-core, it's probably a quad-core or something, but it's amazing. But we're going to discover a bit more about Kerry's weird and wonderful talents, but also some interesting stuff to do with social media a little bit later in the show. But let's go into a bit of the news from this week in the world of social. Martin, what the hell has been going on?

So some big news from Facebook this week was they finally launched their dating service in the States. They have launched it in a number of other countries around the world,— but the US is definitely their highest profile market to launch dating in so far. It comes with some new features, like being able to share Instagram posts in your dating profile. That's something that other apps, I'm told— I'm not on any of these, but I'm told— things like Tinder allow you to do that already. But yeah, so Facebook Dating is— I think it's a brave thing to launch in the face of everything they're facing at the moment. Now, Facebook is saying, oh, well, your profile's completely separate. Separate. But, uh, I don't know, I can understand why some people might be a little wary of this. Matt, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, it just feels like a big data car crash waiting to happen for data privacy. To me, it's almost like it's not a case of if it goes wrong, it's when it's going to happen and how much of a kind of a splashback they're going to get from, from the media for, for that error. Um, so I just wait for that to happen. But I think it'll be fairly popular from a novelty point of view with those are moderate to heavy users of Facebook already. I'm not sure if that is the younger demographic that maybe they would to see, or maybe we'd expect to see using it more. Um, and like you say, it's got the Instagram integration, which is really smart. I think in terms of just features and functions, it adds additional concerns about data privacy and things could go wrong. Um, but they say it's around, it's available in 20 countries now, including the US, and then Europe is coming shortly. I think maybe next year, I think I read. It's free, it's ad-free as well. Uh, and you've got this feature called Secret Crushes, which allows you to, uh, sort say who you kind of like, who's, um, a crush of yours who is one of your friends. And that's the bit where you could interact and engage with the dating side of it with people that you're already friends with. Um, I'm just waiting for that also to, to go badly wrong. But, but it's got some great safety features. It's got Messenger integration so you can send a date your live location, and it's got, uh, other features that you can tell people you're going on a date and let them know you've arrived safely and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, yeah, I'm not sure. Um, Carrie, I know you're gonna have thoughts on this. What do you think?

I just think that Can Facebook just like not do everything? Like, I think as someone who— I've never really used dating apps, but a lot of my friends do, and I used to cover them a lot. And I think there's just something to be said of like a dating app, like just being a dating app, right? Like, as in, like, I don't want to go to Facebook and then get messages pushing me being like, hey, don't forget to check on your crushes. It's like, no, like, I want to go somewhere else for that. That's what Tinder is for. That's what Hinge is for. That's what Bumble is for. Like, it's like there are great other apps, like, and maybe this gets into the conversation. We'll talk later of just like regulation and monopolies and this idea that like, really, is it necessary? At the same time, I give credit to the fact, like Mark Zuckerberg said in his post, people have been using Facebook for dating for a while now. So at the same time, it's, it's serving your audience for that need. I just hope it doesn't start like pushing me to join. Hopefully, I guess I have myself listed as like not single, so therefore maybe it won't. But I'll be curious to see kind of how much it gets integrated into the app.

And I also noticed that they have introduced some features into it that stop the dreaded— can I say it— dick pics scenario that we hear so much about with these apps. They've got no ability, or they're not going to let you send a lot of different media types through messages. So if you're on any of these apps already and that's a big concern for you, Facebook has locked that down. And I'm not surprised. Facebook's not a fan of any of those kind of things. So yes, that's an added bonus for those that care about it. Yeah.

If they do want younger people on Facebook Dating, surely they should brand it Instagram Dating.

Well, Carrie, what do you think?

I know, I think that it's like you were saying earlier, I think it's going to be more popular with an older audience, and, and the older audience is used to Facebook. Um, and I just think Facebook is trying to brand the, the blue app as friends and family and kind of those more connections, while Instagram is seemingly becoming more like brands and influencers and passions. So I think with those like diverse narratives, it makes sense to put dating into the Facebook side of the equation.

Well, I'm intrigued to play with it. I'm going to try and pester some people at Facebook to see if they can let me have a look. But of course, it's not going to be much use because unless there's other people in my country that are on it, it's not going to show me much about how it works anyway. But we'll— I might just have to wait and be patient. But what else has been going on, Martin?

So obviously Apple announced the iPhone 11 and various other things yesterday as we record this. And from a social media point of view, the interesting thing was that this was the first time that the event was streamed on YouTube. And so Apple has traditionally been quite restrictive in how you could watch a live stream. For many years, they didn't have a live stream at all. You had to rely on live blogs from tech blogs to see what was going on. And there was something quite fun about that, having 5 different live blogs open from Engadget and The Verge and whoever else and reading them all and switching between them to see who was— who had the latest information. But then they realized, well, no, we do really need live video. And they— for a long time, it was really locked down down to Apple devices, um, I think probably so they could control the quality. But at the same time, it kind of felt a bit kind of exclusive, like, oh, we don't want new customers to see this, you have to be an existing customer to see it, which seemed a bit strange. Uh, so this time they really opened it up and it was, it was live on YouTube. Um, uh, Matt, have you any idea how many people watched it and whether it was a success?

I think I saw a figure in the kind of 1 to 2 million, I think near the 2 million mark when I looked yesterday. Someone mentioned in an article I was reading. So that seems about what I would expect. You know, it would be a bit finger in the air, I guess, but that seems like the right sort of number. I noticed obviously that the comments feature within the YouTube livestream was off. So I guess that's Apple's typical way of handling people trolling them, I guess. But I guess the bigger question for outside of social media is, is anyone— any of us going to go and buy it? Carrie, are you going to buy a new iPhone?

I don't think so. My iPhone X has been holding up pretty well. Knock on wood. I'm going to like get off this podcast and drop it. But no, I don't know. I looked— I didn't watch all of the livestream, but, you know, I read the great coverage afterwards and there's just not enough for me there. You know, like, I don't think I take as great enough photos that I need such a quality camera. My camera is fine right now. I was looking at old photos the other day, like, you know, from 5 years ago, and I'm like, wow, the camera has gotten so much better. It's great. So until my 10 is completely horrible when it comes to battery quality, I don't think I'm getting the next one.

What did you make of all of the other things that they launched yesterday? So obviously there's some updates to the watch, which is, you know, what we would expect in some of these sessions with them about new products. And there was a couple of other things that were extensions and improvements and enhancements of existing product lines. But they also announced the Apple Arcade and the subscription gaming service. And some pricing details about Apple TV. I'm sure there were some other things. Was there anything that stood out for you that was particularly noteworthy or good or bad or anything else?

I find it really fascinating, and I think Bloomberg wrote this, just kind of their pricing strategy when it comes to like Apple Arcade. I'm not super into mobile games. At the same time, I love the fact that it's, I believe, $5 a month and you can share it with your whole family. It's kind of one of those ideas that that's pretty cheap. Like if I had kids or I guess if I wanted to like share with my sisters or like family, like $5 a month. Is awesome for, I guess, the amount of content you're getting. And I think same could be said for Apple TV+. Like, there's good enough quality content for such a low price, and being able to share, you know, legally share passwords and easily— like, I think that's, um, that's a smart strategy for them. And I, I think it's going to make more people like me, uh, want to be a part of those programs. Also, with Apple TV+, getting a free year if you buy a new device is pretty smart.

Yeah, I was just about to say that exactly, that the whole giving it way. So I think for the arcade and for the Apple TV stuff, a lot of it seems like lost leader strategy. They're kind of, you know, getting you onboarded and signed up and locked in and then maybe hike the prices later because it seems pretty low. But Martin, what do you think?

Yeah, well, they need to, don't they? Because people are buying fewer iPhones. But I think that's a sign that the iPhone and the smartphone market in general is pretty much baked now. It's pretty much done. A smartphone is a smartphone. It's a slab of glass that connects to the internet. You know, you've got your foldable phones and things, but We'll see how they go. They're completely unproven in the market. It'll take a few years to mature. But a smartphone is just— it is what it is. And I think it's better now to not ask, oh, will I upgrade from last year's model to this year's model? Because you wouldn't do that with a car. And you'd buy a new car maybe every 4 or 5 years, whatever. And then that's a massive leap. If you bought the next model of the same car every year, you'd see such tiny increases that it wouldn't be worth it. So I think we need to shake off the idea that every every year smartphones will be massively better. And just learn to cherish our existing devices a bit more and take advantage of the new services and the new operating system upgrades and things that come along the way if we're, if we need something new.

Well, I'm on the upgrade scheme for iPhone, so I'm a complete sucker for these sorts of things. So I'll be getting it, I'm sure. And I'm also, I would love Apple to actually do an upgrade scheme for the Apple Watch because it's a lower price point. So it feels it would be more of an affordable upgrade scheme. They do as many updates nearly as they do with the iPhone. So that would be interesting to me, but who knows, maybe that's their next thing that they'll do. In more serious news, Facebook, Google, and pretty much everyone in Silicon Valley is in trouble again, this time with the State Attorney General's office. I think the words that sort of describe the situation is shit just got real for Facebook, basically. This is one of many of the legal battles that Facebook and some of the other tech giants are facing at the moment. But this one feels to me at least like it could have a far greater chance of sticking and having wider implications for the industry and for the companies that are implicated in it. So it'll be interesting to see how far it goes. I'm glad that we've got Carrie on the show from the US, who has been far more up to speed with how these kind of things work. I'm hoping anyway. Maybe she can tell us in a moment a bit about how it might go out and how it might play out. But Martin, what do you think about all of these things that are coming?

I'm happy to defer to Carrie on this one. All I will say is that I really love the plural attorneys general, which is how Americans— in the UK, we'd probably say attorney generals. But in America, it's like, no, they're attorneys who are general. They're not generals who are attorneys. So it's attorneys general. And so you get people who are very, very finicky about grammar in the States who will say iPads Pro, Not iPad Pros, iPads Pro. And so I just love all that stuff. But yeah, so I prefer grammar to social media regulation. But yeah, Carrie, maybe you've got a bit of a primer on what's happening here.

Well, I did not realize that it's attorneys general. Like today I learned because I didn't write about this news, but I've been following this news. And I think I read Casey Neumann of The Verge, kind of his headline, the way they put it was Google and Facebook's antitrust problem is getting much more serious. And I think that's the right framing. The New York Times also did this, a story recently this week, uh, that was aggregating essentially all the, um, kind of regulation crises happening right now at Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon. They're just really adding up— 8 federal inquiries, 6 state and local, 2 at Congress. At the level, it's just like, no longer are we just having, you know, one little slap on the wrist like we've seen in the past. You know, the last time that Facebook got fined, it was— what was it, like $5 billion? Which is a lot of money, but when you compare it to Facebook, it's nothing, right? Like, it's— so you people see it as a slap on the wrist. Now we have yet another suit with 50 attorneys general, you know, wanting, wanting to really escalate the fight. And, and therefore, that kind of leads me to believe that this is getting more serious, and perhaps we'll see more than just a fine, but actually improved regulations. With the privacy fine too, there were some, like, oversight rules they— Facebook just needs to be a lot better at communication. But it's still— it— what came out is not affecting their strategy. You know, like their advertising business is pretty much still consistent except for when it came to housing discrimination. Like, I feel like that's one of the only things they've, they've really had to change because that literally violated U.S. law to target housing ads to particular classes of people. I'd, I'd be excited and curious to see more when it comes to antitrust breaking picking up companies and also when it comes to advertising regulation and data privacy. I think the companies themselves— I was checking news from D-Mexico, the conference this morning where Google is talking more about less personalized targeted ads instead of targeting an individual. You're targeting buckets of people. So I'm like, oh, that's interesting, right? They're like starting to get ahead of the game, worried that it's only going to get more difficult for them.

Is this just for our audience that maybe isn't as up to speed with what all of these different hearings and court cases mean, the ones that we're hearing about at the moment, which are the antitrust ones and then this one that the attorneys general— can we— can you give us any sense of how much more serious or added heat this is compared to things we've seen in the past? Is this a significant development, do you think?

Yeah, I think the, the idea that it's an investigation from 50 attorneys general is like, we've had this in the past. It, it kind of reminds me— I know, like totally different investigations, but things started to get serious with Uber when it wasn't just like one state saying something, but it was like a lot of states taking action and starting to realize that the company at a whole is that problem. Um, and I think that's again different types of investigations, but it just again brings serious to the issue by bringing it to a different level, um, and hopefully opening up to the federal court's eyes that like, hey, we need to do something more here. Because it's interesting, right? Like, we're in the U.S. I'm sure you guys have hopefully heard about, uh, where California is starting to, uh, you know, get together their own quote-unquote, like, GDPR version. So if California rolls out these regulations, it's going to be interesting where Google and Facebook will have to comply. Perhaps they'll actually comply throughout all of the US just because it's easier for them to operate that way. But it'll be interesting to see, okay, like, will the federal government actually take the same level of scrutiny as that California regulation?

It certainly seems like it's turned up a notch to me. So it's going to be an interesting couple of months— well, a lot longer than a couple of months— these things that never happen quickly, do they? We're going to speak in more depth with Kerry shortly, but first, Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Creators help make Pinterest the best place for people to discover and do what they love. Ideas from businesses, publishers, and bloggers spark creativity, and they inspire people to try new things.

Since most content on the platform comes from businesses, publishers, and creators, Pinterest wouldn't be the same without them. So here are some top tips from the folks at Pinterest to get you started and set up for success as a creator. Creator.

Firstly, get your Pinterest business profile set up. To get started, make sure you've upgraded to a free business account. That will unlock analytics and business account-only features just for you. Go to business.pinterest.com to upgrade and start pinning.

On Pinterest, each bit of content is called a pin, and pins live in collections on a board. Through a Pinterest account, there are methods to upload your content in bulk, such as ingesting your product feed or RSS feed. And once your content is on Pinterest, you can organize it into collections on board for your audience to discover.

Pinterest is different to other platforms. Your ideas live on and on. Pins are evergreen and provide value long after the day they're posted. Some people, like your followers, will see pins right after you post them. Other people might not find them for months or even years later.

And every pin you make can link directly to your website or shop. When people find something that they want to try or buy, they can click straight through to your site to learn more. And your own followers are just the start. When someone saves your content, it's shared with all their followers, helping you grow your your audience. Plus, the more people engage with your pins, the more content shows up across Pinterest for millions of other people to discover.

So stay tuned to The Geek Out for the latest Pinterest product updates, content tips, trends, and more. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. So Carrie, what do you think is the most important story in social media right now? What is everyone talking about? What is for you exciting and interesting or concerning?

Well, unfortunately, I think we already just talked about it, is that regulation, I, I would argue, is the most important story social media just because it'll perhaps— and already is— like changing the behavior of companies like Facebook. There's no lie that Facebook is the biggest holder of social media company. Facebook is the biggest social media company and owns the most number of platforms that we use and categorize as social media. So if the U.S. government here is going to make them change the way they behave, that is the most important story. But I would say, again, to kind of hold on Facebook, the shift we've had on, on just kind of realization of what the these apps are and, and kind of how they use our data and behavior shifts there is interesting. I would say this is just slow going, but Facebook's, you know, considering the removing of likes, or at least removing of the public viewing of likes. I think it's also interesting because it fits into that narrative of people starting to wake up and realize how they use their apps and whether they're deleting them themselves or the companies themselves are trying to make them healthier to use. I think that's another big story.

Well, we've got a question that we were going to ask you later on in the interview, actually, about regulation. So it might be good to just have a little bit of a discussion about that now. Um, could you just tell us what your thoughts are on regulation of social media platforms? I'm guessing from what you've already said that you might think that it's needed. Um, but, um, could you tell us, you know, what do you see as a possible likely outcome of, of regulation, what it might look like, or what think might work and also what you think Facebook and others will do in response to that.

Yeah, I think the antitrust cases against companies like Facebook are interesting. I feel like it's less of a— I think they have a good case to make that it doesn't make sense to break them up. I mean, I could be wrong, but I would be really interested. I would be really skeptical of the fact that, like, the company is like, hey, you can't operate WhatsApp anymore. And they'd be like, they're, they're two different things, right? Yes, they're both messaging apps, but it, it just really wouldn't make sense. I think there's more of a case when it comes to Google and Apple there. Apple especially. There was a good New York Times story yesterday about the fact that it's, it's crazy how they promote, you know, their own software within their own hardware. The fact they own both sides of the business while operating a marketplace. I think there's, there's more of a case there. But when it does come to social media, I think we will see changes for when it comes to privacy and advertising. Advertising, you know, something that I've been covering for a while. It's just whether it's continuing to find them when they make, you know, bad decisions, more slaps on the wrist, but actually changing their behavior and altering the data they can collect. You know, like once there was that scandal recently about Facebook. Supposedly it was an accident that they collected all these email addresses, right, and was using them for the wrong ways. They were using them for advertising when they weren't. They didn't get those permissions. I think we're going to be seeing more change there. And, and it's fascinating to me, you know, I'm based in the US, but when I travel to Europe and I'm like in London and it's just this idea that you have to kind of accept permissions all the time to take actions on sites. I think we're going to see, see more of that there. And companies like Facebook having to be more forthcoming about the ways they use your data. Hmm.

Interesting stuff. I'm— it fascinates me too, the regulation side of things. And it's something that we'll probably talk about a fair number of times over the coming weeks in this podcast. But it's certainly one that's going to go on for some time yet, I think.

Definitely slow coming, but coming, I would say.

Yeah. Now, Kerry, at the risk of sounding like a therapist, let's talk about you. So you are a media reporter and yet you're probably more associated with tech reporting. So do you think there's much of a divide between tech and media anymore?

Yeah, I've had a lot of different jobs, but I've also had a lot of different job titles. And maybe that's just because I like, I could just always call myself a reporter, but for some reason I like putting a word before it. And for a while, when I first really started in this industry, I was a quote-unquote tech reporter. And really that was covering like the business of tech and the business of companies, like we were just talking about, covering regulations, covering companies like Facebook's earnings reports, executive moves, acquisitions, and that whole strategy. But one thing I've always kept my eyes on is how media companies as been affected by platforms like Facebook and, and the whole digital ecosystem. And now kind of I've reversed beats and I cover kind of the media side of it, but at the same time, the intersection of those two, media and tech, I find fascinating. That's kind of how I pitched myself to CNN, was I, when I was interviewing here, literally one of the editors asked me, being like, well, don't you think you should be on the tech team? Like, why are you applying to this media job? And my immediate response was, I think the tech industry is the biggest thing affecting the media industry. So I think having someone with my insights is extremely valuable. And, you know, now I work here, so I see myself more as a media reporter with a super, like, you know, close eye on tech. For instance, I was just at Facebook the other day chatting with them about their upcoming news tab, you know. So those are really stories that I'm keeping my eyes on— the way that social networks are where we go, where a lot of people go to consume their news. So how is that affecting media companies, and how is that affecting affecting us, the world at large.

Yeah, it comes back actually to something that Dave Lee at the BBC wrote a few years ago. He wrote something that every news desk should have a tech reporter on it because tech is everything now. Totally. Yeah, it's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yeah. Matt?

Yes. Well, talking about tech and new tech and then things that are going on in the world of social, let's head back into a topic that I believe is close to your heart right Do you have a little bit of a fascination with TikTok, Kerry? Would that be fair to say?

Honestly, I'm kind of tired right now because one, it is early here in New York, but two, I might have been up late watching TikToks. So yeah, yeah, I think it's fair to say I'm pretty fascinated by it personally and professionally.

Let me guess, it's going to be involving a lot of dog things because you like things to do with dogs and animals. Is that— would that be true as well?

One thing I love about TikTok is the algorithm, which is really weird to say because usually we talk about like hating on algorithms. But TikTok's algorithm is just so good because it just knows I love dogs. Like, you know, like I never told them I love dogs, but because I consume so much content about dogs, it knows and it serves me more dog content and it makes my life very enjoyable.

Well, so talk just rewinding slightly just for those people that haven't used TikTok so much. For some people, it's all they do. Other people, it's still a bit of an unknown quantity and a bit of a mystery to them. So, you know, for those that aren't so familiar with it, kind of, you know, how is it different? What is special about it and why does it matter? Can you tell us a bit about that?

Yeah, I think the way I would describe TikTok is actually I'm going to borrow the words of a creator who spoke at a TikTok panel at Cannes, the advertising festival this year. Her name is Drea Knows Best, and she described TikTok as quote unquote therapy, which— and I kind of, you know, I agree to that. This idea The idea that like, there's a reason I stayed up late last night to like watch TikToks. It's short-form video content, right? Which is exactly what Vine was. Unlike TV, right? Like actually last night I watched 1 hour of television, then I watched a bunch of TikToks, right? It's just different consumptions of media, different forms of entertainment. But one thing that's just, again, amazing about TikTok is their technology, right? They're the fact that like, I'm not disappointed by the content I get served because seemingly it knows me so well. And, and I think one thing's just really cool about the community on there there. What I like it because unlike Instagram, it just seems like less judgmental, uh, and more participatory. Like, I— one, I deleted Instagram and we don't need to go into that, but like, just I bring it up to say that like I've made like 6 TikTok videos now just because I feel so comfortable sharing it. Well, like, I didn't really make that many Vines because I just felt like it was like I would be judged by making Vines because my Vines weren't that cool, you know. But like TikTok is like anyone can participate and it's just fun and awesome. I mean, obviously it's not 100% perfect. No app is 100% perfect. There are dark places, but for now it just, it just seems like a great place to be and participate in.

And they're just getting started now on the, the ads side of things. And I know you've written a couple of pieces about that one at Digiday at least, and they are sort of starting to entertain the agencies and marketers out there with the potential strengths and benefits of using TikTok. Do you see that as something that is going to be received well by people who are using TikTok? Do you think that marketers and advertisers should be jumping on it and be excited by it? And should Facebook be nervous?

Yeah, well, I think marketers get pretty excited by like, quote unquote, shiny objects. And TikTok is this shiny object, right? You want to be like interested and aware of the new thing. And the audience is kind of— the way TikTok is pitching is the audience is one, very young, and two, very engaged. It reminds me of the pitch that Snapchat used to make and at the same time still makes. And so advertisers are interested in that. At the same time, it's like, how much lift is it for them to make the ads? I wrote a story at Digiday that like, honestly, when they opened up advertising, the ads on there were like pretty low quality. And that's just because like advertisers didn't know how to make the ads because it's— sure, it's like short-form video. They've done that before, but it's different the way you speak to the audience. So I think that's going to be one of the most difficult things for advertisers and for TikTok is that kind of like education component and trusting advertisers that it's worth their time when it's so easy to make a Facebook ad. And at the same time, it's not easy to make a television ad, but companies are so like used to how to make a television ad. Um, and it's true.

Facebook be nervous.

Facebook be nervous. I mean, I think there's a reason they made their app called Lasso, their quote-unquote TikTok clone. Um, I think that was them like, you know, wanting to keep an eye to the medium. I think I think obviously Facebook should be nervous because anything that makes people spend less time on Facebook should make them nervous, and anything that is potentially getting ad dollars away from Facebook also should make them nervous. So, so yes, but it's, it's a small app right now. It's, it's not the end of the world. And you're seeing Facebook diversify, right? They're now stepping into like cryptocurrency, and they're doing dating now even though they're not making money off of it, though they're testing, you know, subscriptions with TV services. Like they're— they don't need to worry about just one app. Should they keep their eyes on it? Yes. But like, it's not the end of the world yet.

A quick yes/no. Will it still be here in 2 years' time and as successful as it is now or even more successful? Or is it going to sort of ebb away, do you think? What's your gut feeling?

Yeah, I think it'll still be here and I think it'll be more popular for sure. I think they don't— you know, we talk about it a lot, but like they haven't hit saturation yet. You know, like I think Snapchat has in the US for sure. But like, TikTok hasn't. Like, I think you could walk around here, even here in New York, and not everyone would know about it. So, so yeah, I think sadly Vine died, but it had a good, you know, like many years running. And so it's just the beginning for TikTok. So I'm excited to see it 2 years from now.

Martin, let's talk a bit about Facebook while we were bringing them into the conversation. You had a question about that for Carrie. Yeah. Yeah.

So do you think Facebook can shake off the bad reputation it's brought upon itself? Because there was —time when everyone would talk pretty positively about Facebook, and if there was any negativity, they'd be given the benefit of the doubt. And more often than not now, whenever there's a conversation about Facebook, even when it's about something positive they've launched, you know, they've launched something that's quite a new, cool new product, there's always, but there's always the data stuff. Is this Facebook's lot now? Is this how we're always going to talk about them?

Yeah, it's a good point. Like, kind of, you know, when Facebook Dating launched, I feel like 5 years ago we would have been like, wow, Facebook launched a new feature called Dating. It's awesome. Like, you should use it. And now we're like, oh God, Facebook is going to leak all your secret crushes, you know, like, and it's like a completely different narrative for sure. I would say that it's not just a Facebook problem. I think it's the larger tech industry. I think you had said earlier that, like, you know, more tech, more desks of newsrooms should have tech reporters. We have a lot of tech reporters in general now. And I think so there's more people kind of paying attention to how these businesses operate. And I think the world at large has woken up to this idea. So I think it's not just Facebook having a bad rep, it's tech in general. We say a lot of bad stuff about even TikTok, right? Like, people are skeptical by the fact that TikTok is based in China, right? Which, okay, there's some validity to that, but it's also like, wait, is that necessarily a horrible thing? Are you just making something up because you're scared? Like, you know, it's that criticism where sometimes it's warranted, sometimes maybe it's like, wait, what are you saying? Did you actually look into it? I think it's good to be skeptical. I think Facebook will never shake off the bad reputation like they— because they keep making news. Like, I just finished Mike Isaac's book about Uber and it was fascinating where he talks about there was when they had Dara, the new CEO, come in, one of their strategies was like, okay, we cannot do anything. Like, please don't make any headlines. Like, let's just be as boring as possible. The issue with Facebook is like, I don't think they ever want to be boring as possible and therefore like they'll keep doing things and the media will keep analyzing it, and sometimes that includes being extremely critical.

Is— do you think the media are too harsh on Facebook at times, or do you think they're pretty fair and even-handed with the coverage that they get?

I think there's a lot of, like, yeah, like snark and, like, you know, oh, Facebook again, like, but I think it's really warranted a lot. And I think Facebook, you know, for what it's worth, and I don't know, there's only so much you can trust, but Sheryl Sandberg, you know, I've heard her talk so many times, and And I think they have kind of— this could be all PR speak, but they're like, we listen to you and we kind of want you to criticize us, right? Like, at the same time, they obviously, when they get criticized, then they like yell at reporters. But there is like value to the fact that media is, is kind of hovering over this company to make sure that they don't, you know, pull mistakes that affect billions of people because they're just that massive. Like, I think at sometimes Facebook seemingly doesn't realize their scale for when they have problems. It's like you're not just affecting one person, you know, you're affecting billions of people.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think, um, that Facebook, whenever I've had interactions with them on a media front, uh, have always seemed to be the most nervous and twitchy and secretive and resistant to engage of all of the, uh, social networks. But they, they all, to a degree, as we all know, the, the famous kind of, uh, where you can, you its off-the-record kind of conversations they want to have with reporters is still an ongoing issue. And I'm not even a reporter, but I know that from them talking to me. Yeah, but I could talk about that for hours. But one of the other things we wanted to talk a little bit about is moving on to Twitter. So we had people from Twitter last week, Sarah, on there from the product development team. And one of the questions I put to her is that Twitter is often criticized for moving slow and being a little a little bit indecisive, or more than a little bit indecisive. And also the fact that it's a bit complicated for new users. That's another criticism that people have. And as well as the fact that it's a bit of a one-trick pony. It's a speed and brevity for news thing. That's its kind of core value proposition that it has over all the other platforms. Do you think that Twitter has more to give? And do you think the criticisms are fair and valid at the moment?

I think that's very— well, one, I love Sarah. I really enjoyed that podcast. I think I've had the pleasure of chatting with her a lot before and she's wonderful. So to give Twitter credit. There are great people that work there. And one, it— I mean, I'm biased, like, I use the product all the time, so I have to acknowledge that. But, but I think it's really fair criticism of the fact that they— it's, it's— well, yeah, it is kind of a one-trick pony. Like, it's pretty simple. Like, Twitter's hasn't really changed much in the last, like, I think— I don't know, I've been on for 10 years now. In the last 10 years that I've obsessively been using it, um, I think at the same time there's kind of a reason for that. They themselves have kind of made them into a one-trick pony now. Like, when they branded from being, calling themselves in the App Store from being a social app to a news app, they kind of just really focused their messaging, being like, that's kind of like what we want to be for people. And instead of before where they were like battling with Facebook and trying to do the same as them, and Facebook trying to be Twitter, it's like kind of like maybe it's better to be simple. And I give them kind of credit for that. You know, they've made a big push into obviously like video, but especially live video. And again, like that's kind of the big thing that they've done, and that fits in to the narrative that they've made for themselves. So I think that's not necessarily a bad thing.

So one app that isn't discussed quite as much as the other ones we've been talking about so far is Snapchat. It used to be the big hot thing, and it's not really talked about that much anymore, apart from when people say, hey, Snapchat launched a cool new feature. Remember Snapchat? So what's going on over there? Is it still something we should be paying attention to?

Well, I must disclose that I personally talk about Snapchat all the time, maybe to a fault. Literally the other day, one of my friends was like, you know, I I've deleted Instagram and it feels great. You know, I just wish that I could see people's stories and I could message them. I was like, oh, sounds like Snapchat. You know, like literally she was talking about like having it like, oh, like if Instagram would be great if it didn't have a feed. And I'm like, literally that's Snapchat. Anyway, I'm just apparently the only one there. No, at the same time, I think that's kind of a harsh criticism, though we should be critical of tech companies as we've talked about. Snapchat still has what's— I feel like I haven't read about it— what they have, like close to 200 million daily active users. That's not nothing, right? That's, that's not Facebook level. That's— but it's comparable to like Twitter, right? Like it's like we give Twitter so much attention, but we don't talk about Snapchat when actually its audience, sure, again, is not as big as Facebook, but it's a really big engaged audience. I just think maybe people don't give it credit because it's It's not— they thought it was gonna be bigger than it was. And so I guess that the future of Snapchat, they're doing, they're doing a lot. Like, there was the news yesterday was that they're launching a new page for the 2020 election. Because one thing that they're trying to do is just make sure that they're kind of serving the audience that they have the best they can. And they've noticed that the audience they have actually enjoys consuming political content, which is super interesting. And at the same time, like, a cool, like, kind of responsibility they're taking on that, like, if you have a bunch of younger people who are engaged with their app, why not try to educate them about the political landscape right now for the 2020 election in the US? So things are happening there. I'm still there, so if you want to friend me, follow me @CarrieAnnFlynn.

Talking about people at Snapchat, there's Evan, of course, and then we have the man at Twitter, Mr. Dorsey, Jack, who who had some problems in recent weeks with his Twitter account, as we all discussed last week on the podcast. And we have Mark Zuckerberg. I wondered if you had the geekiest house party at your swanky pad that I'm sure you've got in New York, who of those three is going to be the smartest guy in the room? I don't know if you've had a chance to interact with them or you've just got a take on who they are as people from all the years of reporting you've done. But what's your take on them as a three, as a trio?

I would say that the smartest guy in the room, it would actually be the youngest guy in the room, Evan Spiegel. I've, you know, had the pleasure of, uh, being in the same room as him before. I've weirdly never chatted with him, um, but I've been like literally next to him. And I've heard— obviously chatted with a lot of people who have spoken with him, and they actually all say that Evan had this really bad boy reputation in the beginning for sure. And at the same time, like, weirdly, you know, still does. I feel like people bring up, um, a certain thing he's once maybe said in college, um, but, uh, he, he is kind of weirdly respected for being a smart, thoughtful guy. And at the same time, maybe to a fault, right? Like some people blame that he was so kind of focused on his own vision at Snapchat that it kind of made a bad culture. At the same time, he's really smart. So, you know, if I could only have one guy at my party, it would probably be him. Dorsey, I've heard, you know, from other people that he can be really quiet and awkward. At the same time, I'll never forget years ago we were at the, you know, the same conference. I went to a conference he was speaking at and I actually ended up being seated right behind him. And I stood up, you know, and he stood up and we were about to leave and, and I, you know, kind of like started to— I wanted to say hi to him and he actually ended up turning around and being like, hi, I'm Jack. And I was like, oh, I'm Carrie. And he was like, I know who you are. And it was like one of those things where like people say he's like shy and awkward. At the same time, he just introduced himself to a reporter, you know, like it's like he, you know, maybe we all have our moments. And I really, I really I really respect him by the fact that he's had an amazing turnaround story in his career. And, you know, he's older, you know, so he has kind of had that moment in his life where he got kicked out of Twitter, right? Like he was failing as a CEO. He was not doing his job and he got fired. And what did he do? He literally started another company, which is extremely successful. Square, you know, like, and now he's back as CEO of Twitter again. There was a period a few years ago or a couple of years ago where, um, investors were really criticizing him and being like, he can't run two companies, like, no way, like, Twitter's failing, we need to kick him out, he should only do one job. I haven't heard people say that recently because both companies are doing really well. And again, I really, really respect that. Like, that's, that's awesome, that's incredible. Not many people can say they run two successful companies. Uh, and I guess so lastly, I haven't talked much about Zuckerberg. Um, I I think he's smart. You can't deny he's not smart for having founded Facebook and continuing to run and grow that company and make really smart acquisitions too. Like, give him credit for buying Instagram. Give him credit for buying WhatsApp. Oculus isn't perfect right now, but like, you know, I'm sure it's a smart bet on the future of VR. So, so good for him. I think I would say I have like kind of the less, like the least amount of respect for him just because of the way he operates. But But, uh, at the same time, it would be wonderful to have all three of them at my house party.

That would be the most geek party ever in the world. It would just be insane. I don't know what would be discussed, but I definitely want to be at that party, that's for sure. Um, Martin, let's talk about something that years gone by— old school social.

Old school social, yes, because we talk a lot about the, uh, the social networks that broke through and, uh, the big successes, but there are always the ones that never quite made it, the kind of Ellos of this world, the Peach of this world, these kinds of apps that everyone maybe got excited about for 5 minutes and then they mainly dropped off the radar of everyone. So looking back, were there any you think that should have made it that didn't?

Should have made it but didn't. Well, weirdly, I guess, like what's sad, I covered the kind of the rise of mobile live streaming. It was sad to to see Meerkat die and Periscope rise, you know, like just because, you know, they were both two great apps. The issue is they just literally did the same thing and one of them had the support of Twitter, right? So it was just sad to see Meerkat die 'cause I kind of liked, it was like, again, two different companies, but like the Uber-Lyft situation, right? It was kind of cool to have like two different things that apps that did the same thing and people kind of, there were Meerkat stars and there were Periscope stars, right? And it was awesome and I missed that. But, and another app that I guess Yes, like, I think it's dead now and I really miss it. When I was at Mashable, I think I wrote a story titled, "Someone Please Save Yo." And it was about, if you guys remember the app called Yo, they literally like, the guy who runs it at the time had launched like a GoFundMe or something because he just didn't wanna pay for the server costs of Yo anymore because it was still running. And I'm like, Yo was such a beautiful thing too. It was so simple. Speaking of a product being so focused, missed. Like, literally all you did was yo someone. It was awesome.

Yeah, so literally all it was, for anyone who doesn't remember it, it was just like, uh, uh, you, you just sent, um, a little yo sound to people. They, they tried to turn into a platform later, didn't they?

But they had like the sponsorship or like integration with like the World Cup at the time that like you could sign up to get a yo whenever a goal was scored. And I was like, that was cool. You could like integrate that with any notification. At the same time, I I think it was like, we were already dealing with like, it being a notification overload. Did you really want an app that was just to annoy you? Like, probably not. But there's a big part of me that appreciates that.

And none of us are crying about the death of the most important of these amazing social networks, Google+. Come on, people. Google+. I still sometimes shed a tear. I absolutely don't. It was absolute junk. Come on. It was lame. It was just never going anywhere. Well, yeah, that's true.

There were people who loved it though, and they loved it for a reason. You could build a really nice community there. And it reminded me— the vibe there reminded me of FriendFeed, which is the one that I really miss from 10 years ago. FriendFeed invented the real-time feed. Now that's something we take for granted these days. You open TweetDeck or whatever and all the tweets are streaming in real time and that's just normal stuff these days. Table stakes. But back then, I remember the day they switched on real-time, and it was amazing. You saw text fly by at an amazing speed as all the users suddenly went, "Whoa, this is in real-time now!" And everyone went crazy. It was such a beautifully engineered product. One of the guys, one of the founders, went on to be Facebook's CTO. It was acquired by Facebook and they use like the real-time feed tech and things. But there is still actually a community on Facebook. There's a Facebook group called Friend Feeders, I think it's called, something like that. And on there, I discovered because Facebook started surfacing groups a bit more again that maybe you've been members of for years and have forgotten about. I started seeing some Friend Feeders content. I mean, people are still from 10 years ago who met on Friend Feed, sharing stuff and discussing stuff on this Facebook group. So these communities can live on well beyond the death of the the products that they built around. Yeah, that's so true.

If there was ever any doubt about us being geeks, that whole last 2 minutes has just shown the world how nerdy we really are. What do you think that it's possible for a social network that's completely new, cold start, fresh, not backed by any major company to actually make a viable shot at taking on the big guns and having a new big major social network? I'm guessing the answer is yes, to a degree, but I don't know Kari, what you're thinking about that these days?

I don't know. I think that's a good point. I guess I hope so. Like, you know, I— when I joined Digiday, I said that I wanted to pay attention to the next, like, social app, you know, and I didn't know what that would be like. The last one I feel like I covered that was new was Snapchat, and then TikTok happened, you know, like, and I have been covering that ever since. So I didn't know that was going to, you know, make it through. So I guess I am confident that another, another quote unquote TikTok could rise and start to get attention. I don't know what that will be. I think one thing we're starting to see, you know, to look at Facebook, kind of like what are they starting to move toward is the groups, you know, and kind of, and then looking at Facebook groups and then looking at Instagram, more of like a passion base. I think there's so much power in that. Like people have like hobbies and obsessions and, and what you wanna do is, is go to places where you can consume content about that, right? Like the people listening to this podcast right now, like they love tech, they wanna geek out about tech and social, like the next social network needs to like provide that, right? Make an experience where like I feel like there's a reason I'm connected on this, this internet platform, right? Like bring me joy, don't bring me like, like badness. Like, you know, I only have so much time in the world again. So that's why I guess I give credit to Facebook's like really emphasis on, on groups and Instagram too, maybe making, and even, even Twitter helping you follow conversations, right? Like for passions and not just people. Uh, so maybe there's a company that will just be more more focused on that.

I just wanted to know what your thoughts are. What, what do you think social media is going to look like and how will it operate 10 years from now, which is a huge window in the scheme of tech. 10 years is like so far away and so much can change. But I think that for me, that's a timeframe where it could be potentially substantially different. And so I just wonder what your imagination conjures up of what social media and social platforms would look like in, in the year. What will it be then?

2025? 2029? Wow, 2029. It's, it's a big question. And, you know, I— to give credit to, like, like, Cinema, I've been watching, uh, Years and Years, the show that I think started on the BBC and is now on HBO here. And, and there, I think they are, like, you know, like, 10 years in the future. And weirdly, they just referenced Twitter. So, like, I guess to give, like, credit to that show, and, and from my opinion too, like, I think we'll still have the same apps. I, I hope that, that Twitter won't die, that we'll still be using it, and it'll still be a place to consume news and, and follow people, you know, for us to follow each other and DM each other. I, I think we'll, we'll still see Facebook, but to, to what I said earlier, I think we're gonna see more of an emphasis on groups, you know, and, and kind of like having people being willing to break up the experiences as in like, okay, this is where I go to communicate with my friends. This is where I go to follow my passions and communicate with people who I, I don't necessarily see every day. And then I see more power in, um, less of the likes, right? I, I think we're the way that companies are both Twitter and Facebook are trying to experiment with less vanity metrics and less kind of experiences that make you feel bad about yourself and, and more just consuming content for content. I think we're going to see that. And also Evan Spiegel was really smart when he made Snapchat and he made an app of like kind of a social network for the medium of our time. So that's why, you know, Facebook made this bet on VR, right? I don't know if we're going to have people really wearing VR like headsets as much in 10 years from now. But we're like, maybe there are more like kind of display things or, or maybe even though to like apps being adaptive to if our phones end up folding, right? Or, or we end up using kind of more converting from device to device, like apps being really adaptive to that rather than just tied to one thing. Um, and also just privacy. We, we talked about the regulation side of it, but I think consumers these days are less willing to give up their data. So I think we're going to have to see apps being willing to be really smart about that. And, and maybe even Twitter introducing something where your tweets can like automatically delete, right? Like, isn't it crazy the fact that like Twitter hasn't introduced that feature themselves and instead people have to do workarounds? I think, you know, we have Snapchat who obviously have disappearing messages, and we've had Facebook embrace that trend, and I think we'll see more of that.

So we're not going to have any Black Mirror kind of those little dot things that stick on the side of your head and suddenly you get transported into this virtual world. That's kind of the— that's the future that I imagine. But I'm so Netflix. That's like— like, I know, 20 might even—

that's like 30 years from now. Like, I don't know, like, like last night, that show Years and Years, the girl had her phone implanted in her hand. I'm like, whoa, is that gonna happen? Like, I— maybe in the future, but like, I don't think we're there yet.

Yeah, I, I think Years and Years is really good, and, uh, I would recommend people watch it. Uh, it's mostly on point with its suggestions of how tech will develop. I think some of it, the bit you mentioned there, I won't go into too much detail in terms of spoilers, but there are bits and pieces in it where they seem to have fast-forwarded technology about 50 or 100 years just to make the plot move quicker. But other than that, it is really good. And also it was made in the city I live in, Manchester in the UK. And there's a scene in the first episode where they're all banging on the doors of a bank because the financial system has collapsed and they're saying, "Give me my money back." I walk I walk past that building regularly, and so I have this idea of looming dystopia that immediately snaps into my head as soon as I walk past that building. I think, ah, banks collapsing, it'll happen.

Terrifying. Yeah. Well, I hope that doesn't happen.

When we get to the stage where you can download your brain like Elon Musk style, Neuralink, whatever, I'm first in the queue. I'm totally down for all of that shit. That's me all over. But anyway, we'll see. We'll take some time to wait. We're going to get to that stage, I think. I think so.

Not 10 years, but, but maybe, maybe one day. Keep me updated when you hear about it. Sounds good. Right.

It's time now for Quick Hits. Social media companies are always testing new things and launching useful little tweaks, and we'll share the most important ones with you each week. Matt.

Yes, this is my bread and butter. So let's dive in and see what we've had this week. First thing was last week I found some stuff to do with Twitter. So there was a new feature features to do with lists and topics in their iOS app, sort of hidden away, secretly kind of being played with by the developers at Twitter with some UI and UX pieces I found which showed a new tab or several new tabs that they might be playing with that offer lists and for shortcuts and some other elements which we already know exist but are yet to appear as a separate tab. There was also shortcut button to create a new list, a bit like a new tweet button. There was some information about topics being in the, in your bio, so you can actually list information about the things that you're interested in, all topics that are set up within Twitter. So that would be interesting to see. And also a topic sidebar. So when you swipe from the left to your right and you have that sidebar on the iOS app, there's one that's going to be there for topics, or it might be, depends depending if it gets launched, of course. Also this week, Facebook has been spotted letting you share moments from your Stories archive via its Memories feature. So at the moment, you'll get a daily reminder or notification potentially that says, this is a memory from 7 years ago today. Well, they've now started playing around with doing the same for your Stories archive, and you can share bits of, of your Stories from this time 2 years ago. So it's just an extension of what we've seen with Memories. And Instagram has a similar On This Day feature as well with the Stories part of the product. So that was spotted by a gentleman on Twitter called Lachlan Kirkwood. So thank you to him for finding that and tipping me off to that one. Also, on back to Twitter, and they're showing you social activity on individual tweets by people you follow. So you'll see a tweet, and at the moment you only have the like and retweet counts on each individual individual tweet, but on this one, within the kind of body of the tweet, just underneath the text of the tweet but above the counter for retweets and likes, there's a bit that shows you the little avatars for people that you follow and say that an X, Y, and Z person had liked this tweet. So it gives you a bit more social verification of people that you follow have engaged with that particular tweet. So, uh, that'd be interesting to see if that rolls out. That was spotted by someone called Betríga on Twitter, so thank you to them for that one. Also, WhatsApp for iOS starting to test on its beta app support for the audio playback in notifications. So if somebody sends you a voice message and you've got your phone closed and you get the notification, you're now able to play back that audio clip from the notification itself without having to open up the phone in the app itself. This is only available to some testers on the beta beta app at the moment, so you might not have a chance to play with that unless you're on the beta. And even if you are on the beta, only half of the people probably will get it at the moment. So it's still, still some time to wait. But that one was from WABetaInfo on Twitter, which is always a great source of WhatsApp information. If you're American, beta, beta, of course, I'm going to be shouted at for that one, aren't I? And then finally, Facebook, Facebook again. So Facebook's got a new automatic member approvals feature for groups that's rolling out to more group admins. This isn't something that's completely new, it's something that we— I've certainly seen from other people, and I think it's been even publicly talked about by Facebook. But now it does appear to be rolling out to a few more people, and it'll allow you to— I'm just gonna actually have a little look at it to remind myself that effectively you can choose certain criteria to say to people, you'll allow these people in the group without any need for for approving them if they've hit any of these criteria, which are completed all of the membership questions, or if they live in a certain location or within a certain radius of a location, if they're friends with someone else in the group specifically, or if they joined Facebook before a selected period of time. So no more having to kind of worry about accepting a new member into the group that's only been on Facebook for 3 months. You can set a criteria and it'll auto-accept them into the group for you if they hit a certain threshold that you can choose. So that's an automatic automatic members approval feature that hopefully we'll all get soon on Facebook Groups. I'd like to say thank you very much to Carrie for coming on and joining us. Carrie, who's a media reporter for CNN, where can they find you online and any details you want to share with us that you want people to check out?

Well, thanks so much for having me on, guys. I was honestly so excited to hear when you were launching a podcast because one, like, podcasts are like super hot right now, and like two, it's an awesome medium to like, you know, really talk about and geek out about this world. I think there's so much power to voice. So like, anyway, thanks for having me on. Uh, to, uh, everyone can follow me at Kerry M. Flynn, K-E-R-R-Y M-F-L-Y-N-N, on all platforms. Like, knock on wood, I've been able to secure that handle on every single app. Like, someone asked me the other day, like, oh, would you like change your Twitter to @Kerry? And I'm like, no, because like, Kerry M. Kerry Flynn is my handle. It's so easy to say one word rather than like, oh, I'm Kerry here, Flynn here. So any app including Snapchat, that's where you can find me.

As long as you like posts about dogs or bad jokes, I would say. But no, they're actually very good jokes, so don't worry about that at all. But thank you very much to Kerry for that. And if there's anybody else that wants to kind of hear a bit more about this sort of stuff and loves discussing all these sorts of geeky things outside of this podcast, you join my Facebook group, which is called the Social Media Geek Out. You can find it on Facebook if you search for Social Media Geek Out, or it's forward slash facebook.com/groups/socialgeekout. Martin, tell us a little bit about next week's show. It's a bit of a special one.

Yeah, next week's show is going to be really interesting, uh, the kind of guests that you might not expect on a show like this, but also a really, really good fit for it. Our special guest will be British MP and chair of the UK Parliament's Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, Damian Collins. He's the man who has Facebook in his crosshairs and recently featured in the Netflix documentary The Great Hack, which explored the Cambridge Analytics scandal.

Yes, he is indeed, and he is at the forefront of the push for— from politicians and from the UK government side of things to hold social media companies and tech companies to account. So it's going to be a really interesting conversation. I cannot wait. And the number of questions I've already started planning for him are already onto 2 pages. So it's going to be a long one, which you might have to edit down.

Yes. So Geek Out with Matt Navarra is a Big Revolution production. You can find out more at bigrevolution.net. You can find me on Twitter as @martinsfp. And I'm @mattnavarra on Twitter.

And don't forget to tell everyone about the podcast. We still need to get people listening and sharing it. So do that, that'd be much appreciated. And try maybe leaving us a voice message. You can go to anchor.fm and you will be able to find our show and leave a message on a voice message and we can maybe play some of them out. So you need to visit anchor.fm/geekoutmattnavarra and you'll find an option to do that and we'll play some of them in future shows if we have some good ones to play. So I I think that's about it from us, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. So we'll see you next week and thanks for joining us, Kerry.

Thanks for having me, guys. This is great. I was happy we were able to go on and I'm really excited for next week's episode. It's pretty awesome.

It's going to be epic, but for now, goodbye geeks.