Marketing Stunts That Helped this AI Company Raise $100M

Welcome to the Next Wave podcast. Today we're doing a special episode here live in San Francisco for HubSpot Inbound. And we have a special guest host, Carly Baker from HubSpot. She's going to be having a great conversation with Varun Anand from Clay. And if you haven't heard of Clay, they've been really blowing up recently. They recently raised around a $3.1 billion valuation from Google's growth fund and a lot of other great investors, including Sequoia. And the simplest way to describe them is AI for go to market. So I think you're going to love this convers. So let's just jump right in.

Hey, guys, how's it going?

Good morning. Good morning, Good morning. Thank you everyone for being here with us today. Super excited to be able to kick off Inbound right before Yamini's keynote. Just get to sit down and chat all things Clay for the talk of the town.

Excited to hang. This is the talk of this town.

You are.

Oh, wow.

Clay.

Clay. Really?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, great. Thanks for telling me. We did just launch these billboards, which I'm really excited about, timed for this particular talk, like this whole out of the home campaign. So I was very excited about that. But I think we can just kind of keep it conversational. That could be fun.

Yeah, I mean, I would love to kick off exactly what you had shared, which was when I was in my Uber from the airport. Yeah, I saw your billboards everywhere. Your billboards and our billboards.

Okay, great.

Yeah, I guess we have competing out of home campaigns going on, but I.

Think out of home is a big, like, under underrated thing. Like, I don't think people do this remotely as much as they should be doing. It's really cheap, actually. Like, if you raise venture capital and have money, it's actually surprisingly cheap for the mindshare that you get from it. But I also think most of them are quite boring. Like, most of these ads are really sad. I mean, I also went down the highway last night from the airport and I was, like, very disappointed by the lack of creativity on most of these.

So tell me how you think about creativity specifically with out of home and with billboards. Right. I know maybe we've all seen sort of some of the behind the scenes that you posted. I know you had drones out there capturing the setups and all those things, which I love. Sort of the behind the scenes of out of home. And I could be wrong. I'm gonna try to quote exactly what the billboards say, but I think it Was like Picasso had art and go to market, has clay or something sort of that. I love the playfulness of that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, basically it's every artist has their medium and go to market as clay. And then there's like these children ones which was like Michelangelo had marble and go to market as clay or Monet has paint go to market as clay. By the way, this wasn't a question we even talked about. So we're already off script and we're already doing new things. So just so you know that this is riffing here, which is good. Well, first of all, I can't actually take any of this credit because it's actually this woman Jessica on our team who is maybe the most creative human being I know and Bruno who leads our marketing and like Sarah and Tanner and Hudson are on our brand team. We by the way, as like a separate aside, I think we over invest in brand. Like I don't know, we have a five person brand team or something. And we hired like our head of brand when we were like 20 people or 18 people or something. So we probably over invest in it. You know, it's one of those investments that makes you look good if the company works. But if it doesn't work, then it was a really bad idea because you just wasted all this money on something that doesn't really matter. But I will say the reason I'm starting with this brand thing is because you can't just like come up with something creatively do it. Like there's a lot of steps that go from, you know, four years ago to now of like, okay, actually having a very creative out of home campaign. Because first of all, it's very core to who we are. It's like core to our identity. Like the logo for example, is inspired by this extraordinary artist, Absol Lewitt. And creativity and art like runs through the company's DNA in a lot of different ways. And then we obviously back it up with like the money we invest to do it. Like we have a full time claymation artist on staff, you know, like full time. And I think he takes a lot of vacation too. It's like he. And we'd actually been trying to recruit him for like four years. Notion guy has someone like this too. Not claymation, but like the person who does all their doodles, you know. And so, you know, a lot of companies are not going to make that kind of investment and that's okay. Like brand doesn't have to be everything for every company. It is for us because it's Authentic to who we are. Like, for example, Jessica. We can just talk about her for a second, right? So Jessica's a longtime friend of mine. We actually started the pickleball business together, like, five years ago. And she, like, gained a lot of notoriety, like, a decade ago when she was in, like, UT Austin. And basically there was a law in Texas that said you couldn't have guns public. But there was also another law, like concealed carry laws. And there was another law that said that you couldn't have sex toys public. And so she started this campaign and protest where people would march with dildos down the street to protest these gun laws. And so that's kind of how she became famous at viral. But she does these kinds of stunts all the time. And so she's kind of the most creative person I know. And then, like, three years ago, I think when the team was just like, 10, 15 people, I was like, okay, well, can we find a place for you at clay? And even for me, I was like, okay, this is too extreme. Like, this feels irresponsible even for me. We only have one marketer. And then to have another marketer, who knows what they're gonna do, you know? Like, that felt too extreme. But then three years later, when the marketing team is 15 people. Okay, okay, now we can have someone who knows what. And so her title is, like, schemer in residence. But I think, like, for example, like, her North Star of just coming up with creative stunts. By the way, here's a plug. She really asked me to plug this, so it's not even a plug. Cause it feels very salient to the conversation. This week we're doing all these events that are very creative. So, like, we hired Snoop Dogg's, like, joint roller person, and he's doing a class for people on how you can roll your own joint like Snoop Dogg does. So, like, that's a thing that's on Friday. I think somehow people are not showing up to this. Like, I don't fully understand why, but people are not signing up. But it seems amazing. Okay, if I. I'm actually flying out tonight. If I wasn't flying out tonight, I would go. But if you are remotely our icp, you should go. That sounds very. There's a Kung Fu fighting scene that's being filmed. So if you've ever wanted to be in a Kung Fu fighting scene situation, this is your moment, Right? And so I'm not kidding. It's a professional who's gonna come in and is gonna coach you about how you can be in this battle. Scene and they film this whole battle scene and it's pretty sick. So you should do that. That's this week as well. And there's a perfumery thing where we go deep into the art of smelling and stuff. I don't know, there's all sorts of wacky things. But anyways, who comes up with that? Jessica does. And so this is what I mean by like the creativity and like we invest in that because again, it feels authentic to us.

Yeah. And I definitely want to dig into that a little bit more too, because I think when we think about brand, often we think so much about sort of what the online experience is. I think specifically in the tech space as well.

I was serious. You really should sign up for those things. We really are low on. So please sign up. Yeah.

You know, you think so much about the online experience and to be able to sort of bring those core brand values and be able to do something really against a grain irl, I think is really important.

Yeah.

I mean, even when we're here and even when we're at conferences. Right. It's like how many of you have four happy hours to go to tonight? And what are you going to remember from those four? From those four happy hours. So, like leaning into sort of connecting your irl, connecting your out of home, connecting like sort of the core values of your brand and being able to do the experiential stuff is super important. I do think the more and more and more saturated that the Internet gets, the more important those bespoke events are going to be. And to be able to have someone, it's very hard to find someone who can be the steward of having those ideas and making them actually feasible and sort of tying them back to your icp. Right. I think it's very easy to be an ideas person and not have an idea sort of how to take those and connect the dots and be able to sort of make sense in the whole ecosystem. And so it sounds like Jessica is your person.

Yeah. Well, I'm not totally sure how much like, you know, joint rolling really connects to our icp, but I think it's cool and I think it's fun and I think it's interesting. Which is more that can be said for most programming at go to market events. Not, of course, inbound, obviously. And I think, look, I think people are people and so people are people and like, you just resonate with them in different ways. And like at like Dreamforce last year, we had like this big spa day and everyone was like naked in a spa Together. And I mean, they weren't technically naked, but, you know, but like. But it was just people were connecting because they were at Dreamforce. It was exhausting. You lose your voice, you're doing all this stuff, and then, you know, what do you want? You want a massage, you know, you want to hang out? And so I think it's just finding ways for people to connect that feel, like, human and nice and fun and refreshing and, like, do things people actually want to do. And yeah, maybe talk about Clay in the middle. Maybe.

I love it. I know one thing that you talk about very openly and as you've shared about Jessica here, is that you're really a champion for your people. And a lot of folks that come to Clay, yourself included, sort of come from non traditional backgrounds. And sort of you and Clay really take bets on sort of more non traditional hires and really champion that and use that as a part of your strategy. I would just love to hear more sort of about the intentionality about that and sort of how maybe that's shifted and sort of what other people can learn about maybe like, taking some of those bets in terms of hiring.

Yeah, I actually don't think it's that risky or that much of a bet. I just think it's the philosophy, how we think about it. The art of interviewing and recruiting is just understanding who a human is. And I think people too often try to make value judgments about who people are. And people like, when you're interviewing someone, it oftentimes feels like, hey, oh, this person's smart or this person's dumb or this person's good at their job and they're competent or they're not. And it's easy to do that, by the way. I used to do that all the time just to call myself out on that. But I think the real point is just understand who they are as a human. And they're kind of like a blank canvas when they come in front of you, right? And your job is to fill out the blank canvas. You use pastels and watercolors and the references and the interviews, they all kind of piece together into filling out the story of who this human is. And then once you understand who they are, then you can kind of try to understand, okay, what is the fit, Right? And so, like, let's just say you thought someone wasn't competent or wasn't smart or whatever, something like that. It's not actually those things. It's actually just that, hey, they need more mentorship and guidance and help and support than you were able to provide in your current structure. Right. Maybe they should work at Google because they have a lot more of that than like some fast growing startup like Clay, because that's just not going to be able to give them that structure and support. Right. And where someone's going to be successful. So I think it's just thinking about people in this, like terms of fit and like where are they in their journey of life and what are they looking for and what do they need to be really successful? Like what does it take for you, Carly, to be unleashed? You know, like, like what does that take? And I think there's actually. So Izzy right over there is videotaping this for some reason. Videotaping it by the way, right next to a very professional videotaping setup. I think it's because we want like a fast follow on content. So, but I, so I am grateful. But anyways, Izzy's a perfect example of this by the way. And Billie right next to her and we're working on her role, so we're still working on that. But, but an example nonetheless. So Izzy, she was a product manager at Samsara. We have this like rotational program called the Wheel where basically everyone's not hiring new grads and we're going all in on new grads. And, and so we have this rotation program where we take new grads or people just out of college and then they do product support. They learn the product really well, they understand their customers really well and they rotate to other customer facing functions and then within like a year or something they go join that customer function full time and it's usually faster because everyone chases them because they know the product and customer's better than anyone. Anyways, Izzy applied for this and I was like the final interview and it was like a 15 minute conversation and, and I was like, why do you want to do this again? Because like you were a product manager at Samsara and now you're trying to do product support and it didn't totally make sense to me. And she explained by the way. But I had some other context about Izzy because she sent in this video and then she has. Is it a hamster? Is it a hamster? It's a bunny. Okay, sorry. It's hard for me to remember. I think it's. I thought it was a hamster. Okay, sorry. It's a bunny. So she has this bunny and I remember this video with this bunny and it was like a very thorough video about like a clay use case in this bunny. And then there was also some other Details of how, like, proactive she was that Kareem mentioned that she came up to him at some conference and was having Indian food with Kareem. And he was like, hey, did you meet this person named Izzy? And I was like, no, but I think I'm talking to her tomorrow. So there were just like some details about this that I had. And then we meet for 15 minutes. And then like, immediately it was clear that, like, this didn't feel like the right fit, you know, and so I was like, okay, what could be the right fit? And anyways, I asked her if education could be a good fit. And I don't know, Izzy, is it a good fit?

Love it.

Yeah. Okay, so it's a good fit. Similar, by the way, not just Izzy, the other person on the education team who started on the same day was a very funny similar story, which is she was applying for like a CX role. She did growth before that, all these things. And we have this interview. And by the way, there's a lot more serendipity in in person interviews, but it's harder to do that usually on, on virtual interviews than it is in person. So anyways, Sarah, this other person, we're like, in this conversation and she keeps referring. She has this like, notebook, right? And she keeps referring to it. And I'm like, can I just see that notebook? And so I just like, look at this notebook. And I like, read through all the notes, by the way. She was very prepared. And so she had lots of notes. And then I asked if I can read her Apple notes too. So I read her Apple notes. I did, by the way, before checking into different notes if they were ambiguously titled. I did ask her for permission to read that. So I read that too, like during the interview. And basically I got a lot of insight into who this person is. And then I asked her, hey, do you want to consider education instead of cx? And I didn't feel like this was the right fit. We were kind of shoehorning it because I think she was excited about Clay. And so I was like, oh, there's something instinctively that doesn't feel right. And then you know what she said? She was like, actually, I can't believe you asked that. Because my whole life I wanted to be a teacher and I've never been able to do it because of the pay and the economics of it, but I'm like, really excited about it. And again, that was completely out of nowhere. But I think it comes from really being so naturally curious about who this person is. Okay, I have another tangent. Sorry. I just met this guy Brandon, who is the founder of Humans of New York. And I don't know if you guys are familiar with Humans of New York. Okay. It sounds like people are. And yeah, I've been a fan of this for a long time, so it's pretty cool for me to, like, meet this guy and I, like, talk to him. And I was like, how do you get these people to basically open up their whole life stories to you in, like, seconds, right? And then, like, get deep. And honestly, the answer he gave, which is so similar to what happened with Izzy and Sarah, is you just have to be naturally curious. And I find in interviews a lot of times, like, even myself, by the way, you ask for, like, what is the best question you can ask? Like, how do you do this? Honestly, none of that matters. If you're actually naturally just really curious about understanding who this person is, the questions kind of come out naturally. And the same thing happened with Brandon and Humans of New York, and people feel that natural curiosity and they lean in because, like, you're a stranger, you sit down, you're like, hey, can I take photos of you and post it on the Internet? Right? Like, that seems off. But if you're naturally, like, eager about understanding who they are, people respond to that. And then the same thing applies for interviews. And so I think that principle is kind of how we're able to, like, understand who they are and, like, find the fits for them in the organization.

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Yeah, so I want to take sort of the philosophy and thought that you have around hiring and talk about sort of how that's related to just the pivot and sort of the changes of Clay as a product over time. I think there's actually a lot of parallels in your sort of personal. And the team's personal curiosity has really played into that. So can you talk about sort of just the journey of going just sort of from fancy spreadsheets to going all in to being a full sort of go to Market AI powered tool and sort of how that story maps with how you think about hiring.

Yeah, basically in like late 2021, early 2022, we called ourselves like a spreadsheet that would fill itself and it did, but to no particular audience that well. And I think that really reflected a lack of commitment and a lack of focus from all of us. And so basically there was a moment where we were like, okay, let's commit and where should we commit to? Well, I think there's pull here in this go to market space and then we kind of need to understand where to start. And so for me, I was like, okay, well this is a broad audience. How do we like narrow it down to something that we can start with? I talked to a lot of different people and the only audience that I was feeling any type of pull from were our like agencies, like these cold email agencies, marketing agencies. That's where I felt immediate pull. And, and so we just kind of focused on them. Now in retrospect, it might seem a little silly, like if we went to go raise venture at that time and we were like, we're building software for cold email agencies. I don't think that like pitch would have landed very well. I don't think it would have won the HubSpot pitch contest, you know, like, like Arjun did plug for Arjun, because that's not like a big market or whatever. Right. But I think these things are very unpredictable. There's also a good book on this, by the way, Greatness Cannot be Planned by Ken Stanley, which I really like. I actually almost successfully hired him at Clay again for a non traditional role to kind of study curiosity and stuff. The reason I resonate with the premise of that book, which you can kind of guess from the title, is that greatness can't be planned. And greatness could be defined as product, market fit. It could be defined as an iconic company, whatever. You kind of have to follow your instinct and your curiosity and each step and each stone unlocks the next one. Right. And all you're trying to do is just get to a place like a basecamp place. Right. And so that's what happened here. Right. We followed our curiosity. We started with these cold email agencies. We didn't know where that was going to lead, but we knew we were helping them. And we knew we were helping them because they felt the pain so acutely because they had lots of clients. And then we were kind of able to parlay that into them posting about us on the Internet. We were able to parlay that into working with their clients, take that and meet with, work with other startups and SMBs. And eventually our first enterprise customer was rippling and then Vanta and OpenAI. And so we were able to take that and get momentum with these enterprise customers. And the way it works is the bigger companies look at the company right below them. Right. And so the onion kind of unfolds in that way. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the journey of how we've grown. And then from the product perspective, we've gone from really just a spreadsheet to a data enrichment tool and to now like a go to market platform that we call like an IDE maybe that lets you kind of come up with any idea really quickly, execute those ideas and kind of execute any growth play. And we're still on that evolution because I still don't think we're achieving that vision remotely as much as we want to.

I want to talk a little bit about sort of the intersection of curiosity and the fact that we're sort of increasingly more and more in an AI world where I think curiosity is being sort of put on the sidelines. I'd love to hear from you personally as someone who really champions curiosity. Sort of any exercises or anything that you do or encourage others to do to sort of stay in touch with that side of yourself or just to build that up. Sort of as you know, being curious or finding information or getting ideas is sort of easier than it's ever been in the age of AI. I guess a simple way to put it is can you help people become more curious?

Can you help people become more curious? You're right that it's more difficult because people basically just default to ChatGPT for everything right now. And I think there's a lot of trade offs with that that are not so obvious because yeah, you have these AI tools and people are like, okay, immediately just go use them and then you don't think about what happens because of that. So for example, a lot of people use ChatGPT as a therapist. Right. And what are the trade offs of that? Are people then not going to talk to their friends about their problem? What does that do to friendships? You know, what does that do to our social circles? So I think that's like this challenge. And then also, by the way, that's exacerbated. Like in San Francisco where we are now, there's this whole push to like996 and like those types of companies, which Clay by the way, definitively is not. And I think those companies also kind of that philosophy kind of exacerbates this problem, actually, because people, they kind of view like, success as like a treadmill, right? Where a lot of things come from. Curiosity from openness, from creativity, from having time and space to think about problems. I actually just read this article last night about this guy, Jun Su, who is an economist and mathematician at Princeton. And he just won the Fields Medal, which is like the best prize in mathematics. And he was a high school dropout. And he was a high school dropout to study poetry and then didn't actually get into math until like his sixth year at like Seoul University or something. And you look at his days, like, you wouldn't ascribe any of those things to actually, like, doing good things, like getting your work done. Like, his wife almost didn't get married to him or divorced him because he couldn't do the basics of household items and stuff, right? But that creativity and that magic and that space that he creates is what enabled him to come up with these breakthroughs that warranted him a Fields medal. Right. And I'm not saying you need that type of thing for everything you do. Right? But I think you just need that space and that time, and it's hard to do that when you're in this treadmill during this grind. I feel like I've still been evading the core question of like, how do people actually do this practically? And so I don't have a great answer of how people can be more curious. I think they just have to, like, want it and they have to create space for it and they apply it in their day to day. But that's kind of the best answer I can come up with right now.

Yeah, well, that's a great answer. I want to hear from you about sort of creative use cases or things that you're seeing customers doing that you just never sort of had the idea of sort of your customers using play in that way. Just sort of to follow the thread of curiosity and creativity.

Yeah. Well, not to call on Izzy again, but I think Izzy had a very creative use case. We have the single clay bootcamp for all new hires of the company, and they basically have to use clay in some creative use case in their lives. Izzy, do you want to tell them about your creative use case?

Yes.

In my table, I was building out an offer negotiator using clay so it'll pull similar job data to similar companies for roles that you want to apply for or have applied for. And you can also input using like lovable as almost like a front End Clay as a backend, where we're processing, you put in. If you put in details about your offer letter, it'll go ahead and compare that to the industry standard that Clay has pulled in from the recent LinkedIn job postings and then give you back on Lovable, a negotiation letter that you can now send back to your recruiter over email. So Varun actually wanted to use this for all our candidates?

Yeah. Did we do that, by the way?

I don't think we actually did it, but we're posting about it on our GTME blog.

Okay, let's post about it. But also let's post about it in the recruiting channel or send it to Depot and me. And like, I think we should actually include it in the materials because people should have access to the latest things that could get them more money. And if it actually helps them get more money, then either they're right or our process is wrong. And so either outcome is fine. So we actually should do that. Okay, so that was pretty creative. And then if I remember correctly, there's a lot of things like my EA just started last week, and she had a creative use case in her boot camp where she, like, found all the GMs of all the fancy hotels and all these places and got their contact information and sent them all, like, a very personalized letter that makes it so that they're more likely to give me an upgrade when I go. She calls it nice hacking. I have encouraged her to make a LinkedIn post about that. Ivy from our team, like, created a builder in Klay for, like, finding tennis courts and hiring tennis coaches and stuff, which is pretty creative. There's a use case of tracking all the new content on HBO Max and Amazon prime and Apple tv and then having, okay, what scores do they get on rotten tomatoes and IMDb and what should you watch this week? Right, so these are all kind of like, very fun, creative use cases in your personal life. I can give a real work one too. Okay, so there's a company, a logistics staffing company, for example, and they serve warehouses of a very particular size because that's how much ad account they have. But the traditional data sources for warehouses kind of suck, actually, and aren't very good. So what to do? Well, they're like, okay, well, maybe AI can help. And it does, actually. So they actually use clay to automate finding all the warehouses in Google Maps. And then they use AI to analyze the satellite images. And then in the satellite images, they count how many parking spots are around the warehouse, and then they count how many cars are in the parking spots. And it turns out that that's the best predictor for headcount size and warehouse size and anything else very interesting. That's creative. Another one I'll hit you with Canva. You guys all know Canva, Big company. One of their products helps you keep your brand consistent across lots of different social channels. So they use clay to automate social listening on LinkedIn and Twitter. Then they use AI to analyze those posts and be like, are they on brand or off brand? And if they're off brand, it's like, hey, the font is off, the coloring is off, the spacing's off. Then they're like, okay, well let's find the head of design. Let's message them and be like, yo, you just posted this on LinkedIn yesterday. It's off brand. Here's why it doesn't meet your brand guidelines. That's not good for you. Here's how we can help. Right? So it's like timely, it comes with a solution, it's very effective. Those are some in the wild creative use cases.

Yeah, I love those. All very different. As tools sort of become more natively integrated in workers lives, we're going to see so many more of those sort of personal use cases where they're building using a tool at work and they're expanding that into how they're using it in their real life. And just like tools and software being more natively, I think as a part of just people's lives outside of work, which is something we've never haven't really seen before, at least at this type of scale. Yeah, I think is very interesting. I think we have time for one more question. I do want to go back more towards the product side and just hear sort of what you're building for 20, 26 and beyond as AI is sort of continuing to grow and shape technology as a whole. Like what are you really focusing on and where are you looking to grow with the product?

Yeah, I think there's a lot. I mean, I think basically our ambition is to build a space where it's very easy to come up with ideas really quickly execute them, and then the ambition of those ideas can be really, really high. And I think we are meeting certain elements of that ambition right now to certain audiences, but definitely not to everyone and to all of these use cases. And the bar to access product is super high right now. How do we make that more accessible? So we're working on lovable esque interfaces in clay to make that really much more accessible. How do we help you be way more creative in those and be a thought, how do we help you be way more ambitious? And so we're considering agent based, node based architectures to help you do way more. Absolve away the tables in some ways and be more ambitious. So there's a lot coming up down the pike that we're really excited about. And then also, how do we expand into new audiences? How do we not only just help revops teams, but how do we help marketers do ABM in sophisticated ways? How do we help reps be more efficient in their day to day? So I think there's both surface area and scale of ambition that we're excited about and kind of a lot coming down the pipeline.

Yeah, are you more excited about sort of surface area or scale? Like, how are you sort of balancing your priorities?

Yeah, it's a tough, tough balance. I was just talking to our friend Jee Kaban, like, and he was asking me about our ambition and it's like he was, like he was referencing this other company and their ambition is like to become $100 billion company. And it's like, I don't care about that. Like, I'm not trying to. Like, that's not the point. The point is that a lot of people in this room are starting companies, running companies, and when you have an idea or when you start your new company, we want your first instinct to be to use Clay the same way your first instinct right now is to open up your phone and call it Uber or Waymo or search something on ChatGPT. Like that should be the default mindset. And then not only is that the instinct, but we meet that promise, right? And we actually help you do something that genuinely grows your business in a way that's differentiated and that's an ambition and we're trying to meet that, but that's kind of where we're headed.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much everyone for joining us. This breakfast and this conversation was presented in partnership with Clay, of course with our friends at HubSpot for startups, which is your go to place for tools and resources and exclusive access to the starter community at HubSpot with Mindstream, which is HubSpot Media's premier AI newsletter. And then of course the Next Wave, which is our AI podcast and newsletter. We're really excited to share this conversation. We'll be available in just a couple of weeks, both on YouTube and on audio for anyone who wasn't able to join us or if you want to revisit the conversation so we're, we'll send a follow up with that. But thank you so much, Marun, for the time this morning. And thanks everyone for joining us. And we'll see you over at 9:30 for Yamini's keynote next door.

Yeah, thanks guys.