He Was Doing Everything Right, But His Patients Weren't Getting Better

Hydrogen peroxide is— it's an oxidant. The nature of an oxidant is it moves an electron. Another oxidant is ozone. Now ozone is an oxygen-deficient or an electron-deficient molecule.

Okay.

It consists of 3 oxygen atoms which are deficient— that threesome there is deficient in electrons. So if you put ozone into the body, it's gonna immediately start moving electrons.

Okay.

It's gonna grab and start moving them around.

You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Glogli, and on Out of the System, hosted by Dr. Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare entrepreneurs back. Hear from clinic owners, rebels, and builders who are creating bold, profitable, patient-centered practices and doing it their way. Frank, I'm glad you're here. Glad you could be here. I'm sitting across from Dr. Frank Schallenberger. He is literally one of the pioneers of our industry in the functional medicine, anti-aging, you name it, Regen. Frank's done it all. Um, 50-plus years, Frank, is that how long you've been doing this?

I think it's like 55.

Is it really 55? Because you're— tell everybody how old you are.

Yeah, I just turned 80.

Wow.

Just turned 80.

How you feeling?

I feel— actually, uh, we were talking a little bit about the fact that I turned 80 and I started thinking, my goodness, normally aging doesn't get to me.

Yeah.

But I thought Somehow this one got to me. I thought, okay, I'm going to go out and I'm going to do an international racing competition like I did in the old days. In my old days, I used to race bikes.

30, 40 years old? When you were 30 or 40?

So I'm entering this racing competition, and it's going to be next month. And so for the last 4 or 5 months, I've been in training. And I have to say, I am surprised, and I shouldn't be surprised because I know this.

Right. Yeah, you should know this. If anybody should know this, Frank should know this.

By the way, if you go exercise, you feel better.

Newsflash.

This is not shocking, but I am surprised at how good I feel. Everything in my body, from my brain to my back, to my strength, to my stamina, to my energy level, to my sleep, pretty much everything's been impacted in a really positive way simply by this exercise schedule. I changed a few other things too, you know. But, uh, yeah.

What are some of the other things you would change?

Well, I got into peptides, so I've been—

So are you, are you late to peptides? Because I would have thought you would have been like one of the first guys.

No, I've been doing peptides a long time in my practice.

Right.

But for myself, you know, I've been kind of ignoring myself. You know, you know what the problem— one of the problems—

Do you run quarterly blood panels on yourself or do you just like feel fine?

No, no, I do blood panels. Okay. But, you know, it's doctors. Somehow we think we're invulnerable.

Yeah.

We think we know all this about health, so we're so smart.

Yep. So nothing ever bad is going to happen to us.

which of course is bogus, right? We just think we're just going to be just cool without having to do necessarily things that we tell everybody else to do, right?

Right. It is really interesting, you know, working with doctors. It's fascinating because you all are so brilliant and so intelligent and you've accomplished so much. You've been through the rigorous training of medical school and residency and fellowships and everything that you go through. And yet it is kind of funny when it comes to your own health, like you're just like, I'm like, Maybe you should like do your own stuff, right? You know?

Yeah, maybe we should.

You know, my favorite is Don Buford and one of our other doctors as well, Steve Darrington, had Achilles injuries, right? Achilles heel strains. And so I'm like, let me guess, you guys injected yourself? They're like, of course I injected myself. They put the ultrasound on the Achilles, gave themselves their own nerve block. I'm like, you've got other doctors. And they're like, I'd rather do it myself. It's really kind of funny.

Probably, yeah.

So you're— let's go, let's go back. I'm really— I've been thinking a lot about this interview. So you've been doing this 50-plus years. You started in traditional medicine, right?

Right, yeah.

Okay, what age were you? What, what's the story? What's the moment that you realized something's not right in medicine? Do you remember a patient without obviously disclosing their name?

I trained initially, got right out of— at the University of Maryland, I got right out of grad— I graduated And I immediately did the training with the shock trauma unit there. This was the first—

So what shock, what do you mean by shock trauma?

Shock trauma unit is where, you know, those places where they helicopter in the patients that are all screwed up. And this was the first shock trauma unit in the country. So I was really cool on it. And we had a— this was before all this started, but it was at the very top of the hospital. They had a heliport and they would bring in people on—

Life flights, people bones sticking out.

And they're all messed up and you'd be sticking tubes in them while you're taking them to the elevator. that kind of thing.

Sounds like a great gig.

I loved that kind of medicine.

I'm sure you did.

It was exciting, it was straightforward, it was interesting, we could save lives, it was really fun. And so I ended up leaving that shock trauma and more or less working in a standard emergency room for about 8, 9 years. And things started to change in the emergency room back in the '70s, and that was We used to get pure emergencies, right? And now we're getting people with rashes that they've had for the last 6 months, and they're coming in at 2 in the morning. It was just aggravating to me.

Yeah, because they— because that was their doctor.

Yeah, they're starting to use the emergency room as like an urgent care center or something. And yeah, so I decided at some point, like, you know, I want to get out of this. I don't want to do this anymore because it's not the kind of thing that I want to do. And so I went out and I just hung up a shingle, set up a little office across the street from the hospital. Put my little shingle out there, F. Shallenberger, MD, and family medicine, and come see me and I'll take care of you.

And this was in Maryland?

This was— no, no, this was, this was in California.

Okay. You were in California?

Yeah. I moved to California, done a surgical residency there, and I've just been there.

Okay.

And so, so I hung up my shingle and about 6 months after that, and it's like a few patients coming in, you know, about 6 months after then, I went to the hospital administrator, the head of the hospital there, 'Cause I knew him real well. And I said, you know, I don't understand what's going on here, but I'm giving all these patients all these medications and like nobody's getting better. They're not actually getting better. How dare you ask this question in the 1970s? And also I'm really fed up with the fact that something like 20% of them are getting sick from what I'm doing to them. And I said, there's gotta be something wrong. I've been doing emergency medicine. This must be a different kind of medicine.

Right.

And so the guy says, so I met with him regularly for about 2 or 3 months. And we would meet once a week and I'd say, well, I'm doing this, I'm doing this for hypertension, I'm doing this for arthritis, blah, blah, blah. And the long and the short of it was, he says, yeah, you're doing everything right, Frank.

What?

Yeah, you're doing—

So your patients are, your whole mission in life is to heal people.

Yeah.

Right? And they're not getting any better.

Well, that's what you do in the emergency room.

Right. You stabilize them, right?

So finally, yes.

You either move them upstairs, move them out, or put them in a body bag. There's 3 choices, right?

That's it.

Either go home upstairs or to heaven.

So I ended up at— this all ended, I said, okay, this is the way it works. He said, oh yeah, you're doing just fine. I said, okay, well, this reminds me of being in the emergency room and some guy comes into the emergency room with a broken leg and I just give him some Prozac and send him on his way. You know, isn't there a way to like fix these problems? They got hypertension. Isn't there a way to fix hypertension? Or do I just give them some drug for the symptom? And he said, nope, that's— we don't do that. And so at that point I said, well, okay, uh, there's got to be more to this. And then I got lucky. It just so happened— I don't believe in coincidence, but it just so happened that Linus Pauling Famous Linus Pauling.

Okay.

Started a study group in San Francisco, and I was right close to there. And, uh, and I would meet with Linus Pauling and about 7 other really brilliant, very knowledgeable physicians in, in, in a field that wasn't exactly conventional.

And did it have a name back then?

Yeah, it was the Orthomolecular Study Group.

Okay.

Orthomolecular. Linus Pauling coined that term, orthomolecular, which means Linus thought Hey, you know, the reason people get sick, the reason they get hypertension, the reason they get arthritis, whatever, is due to an imbalance in the system. And if you realize this, you know, yeah, we have a system that tends to keep us in balance. You got one hormone that pushes you that way, you got another hormone that pushes you the opposite way, and by the interaction of those hormones, you stay nice and stabilized and nice and balanced.

Hmm.

And Linus was that— Linus' deal was all disease starts from an imbalance. And how do you get that imbalance? His big deal was the way you eat. Okay. And it had to do with vitamins and minerals. He was, of course, especially interested in vitamin C. But the long and the short of it was, after about a year of being in that study group, uh, it opened my eyes. I said, yeah, they didn't teach me anything like this in medical school.

So this is what, mid-1970s?

This is the late '70s.

Late '70s.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to comprehend this. Okay. Internet doesn't exist, basically.

Exactly.

Right. There's the lib— there was no Amazon. If you wanted to find something, you had to go to the library, like research this. There probably weren't a lot of books on this because everything was controlled by the major publishers. So they weren't going to publish something that was going to be fringe. Self-publishing didn't exist in the way it exists today. I'm sure it existed.

Nothing close.

Right. Nothing close to it. If it was called self-publishing, it's nothing like what it was today.

Computers were nothing.

Yellow legal pads, right?

Exactly.

Yeah. I'm trying to comprehend this because how in the world did you even find out about it?

Well, by talking to these guys, first of all. Okay.

So you were talking with other doctors who were frustrated. I'm a knee guy.

I don't know anything.

Right.

All I know is something's missing. That's all I know. Okay. These guys have been doing it for years, kind of under the covers.

Okay. So these are— These are—

these are early luminaries.

Okay. And these are folks, they have their own practice. The hospital system doesn't exist the way it is now. It's a pure nonprofit environment run by the Catholic Charities or the Jewish—

Exactly.

Right. The way it was, right? Hosting their bake sales and their golf tournaments to make ends meet, right? So back then, what was it like 75% of doctors had their own, were independent, they had their own practice?

Exactly.

Okay. So they didn't— they weren't found.

You had a certain level of freedom. You weren't tied into hospitals, you weren't tied into an employer, you weren't tied into a group mentality.

I mean, health insurance the way it is now didn't come into play until like the mid-1980s, because originally it was the patient had the health insurance, they paid the doctor, and then they submitted the forms and they waited for reimbursement, and then they flipped it, right, in the mid-1980s. So fascinating.

So before— I want to tell you, but before computers, this is funny, Before we met, we would meet for the study group around 7 PM, but we would actually meet in the morning of that day at 9 AM, and we would meet at the University of California Library stack.

Okay.

So, in their basement, they had 3 levels back then of books that dated all the way back to the early 1800s.

Wow.

Books and periodicals, absolutely astounding It's crazy. There's just mile after mile of these books on there. And we would meet at 9:00 AM in the morning. And our thing was wander around, wander around, pull out books, look at this, look at that, pull out this. If you find something interesting, you gotta go over to the lady and then she'll copy it for you. And then you can, and then that's what you brought to the study group.

And she was about 173 years old, right? She went to high school with Jesus, right?

Okay. So we would all meet at the end of the day. at this study group and say, well, I found this article here out of 1882 on black salve and skin cancer. Or some other guy would say, well, yeah, I found this one out of 1930 about thiamine and alcoholism or whatever. And then we would sit around and talk about that. And that's gonna open your eyes after a while.

Do you remember like an article or something that you found that was like a holy fuck moment where you're like, oh my God, this is the answer I've been looking for?

No, and I didn't, I don't remember anything like that. It was just the whole general concept is like, there with wide eyes listening to guys like Linus Pauling, Richard Cunnion, Jonathan Wright, all the— Julian Whitaker, all these early luminary guys that had been in it for a while and just new stuff. I'm saying, what? You can do that? And they say, yeah, yeah, we do that. It works great. Wow.

So this is the late 1970s.

Yeah.

And then you got in a little trouble with the state of California.

Well, that was about 10 years later.

Oh, that was 10 years later.

Yeah, because when you go down that road, Yeah. At least back then, you're likely to get in trouble.

Well, okay, so medicine is—

You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing.

Right, because medicine is going to be more controlled. This is quote unquote standard of care. The FDA is taking more and more control. The pharmaceutical companies get granted immunity from the Reagan administration during the mid-1980s. So that changes everything. So the industry's going this way and you're going this way.

Well, I'm trying to integrate it. I'm not throwing out drugs.

I understand.

I'm not throwing out surgery and such, but I'm looking at this and I'm saying to the patient— there's a guy that wrote a book called Sugar Blues, and that was an influential book for me, 'cause this is early on. And one of the guys told me about this book, so I'm reading the book, and really the book's kind of silly, but the bottom line was, guess what? Eating sugar is bad for you.

Any form of sugar.

And he talked about its effect on the hippocampus and how it screws your brain up and blah, blah, blah. And so I read the book and I thought, you know what, I'm taking everybody off sugar this month.

Really?

And all of a sudden I get this reputation as being this genius doctor who has really figured it all out. Business started to become good. People come in, I said, don't eat any sugar. And then I later learned if you give them a B vitamin capsule, that's really good too. So no sugar, take this B vitamin capsule and see me again in 6, 8 weeks.

And they were—

darn it, people were getting a whole lot better. And that, I mean, the rest, the rest has just been a journey to learn more tricks.

Yeah. And that's really one of your big things is sugar. Like, that's still today one of your—

Horrible.

Yeah, you wrote a— you wrote an entire book on it, right?

Like, our food system back then was not good. It's like 10 times worse now. Oh, way worse.

You think it's only 10 times worse?

At least back then when you ate crappy food, Most people knew it was crappy food.

Right.

Nowadays, people eat crappy food, they don't know it's crappy food. That's normal for them. They've had that all their life.

I'd rather have McDonald's from the 1970s than the McDonald's than today.

Probably.

Probably?

Yeah, yeah, maybe so.

It's really fascinating. You know, since I've been in this industry, I've been in this space since 2014 when I opened my first clinic. And at first, I was like, those functional medicine people are nut jobs, right? Now, I'm like all in, right? Where I shop, I don't even shop at Whole Foods anymore because it's been taken over, right? It's just a big fricking Amazon warehouse with shitty food, right? You really gotta work hard. So I spend a lot of time at Sprouts. And I do the grocery shopping and the cooking for Christina and I. That's, you know, she handles laundry. I do all the— I take care of the kitchen, which I love to cook. And so we had been out of town, out of food. I'm like, you know what? I gotta make a quick stop. And I get, I like to have these kind of like breakfast bar kind of things just to snack on throughout the day sometimes. And I didn't— wasn't really paying attention, and I grabbed some and I ate one, and I'm like, I don't feel right. I started getting gassy. And it was like Kodiak, right? Like, it's a brand that I've bought before.

Like, not all that bad.

It's not— yes, it's not all that bad.

Yeah.

And I start looking at the ingredients, and what's number 5? It's like some kind of thing. I can't— I don't even remember what it was. I'm like, shit, now I can't eat those. Like, because my body just rejected it. And I'm like, God, I used to feel like this all the time. It's just fascinating.

Yeah, once you clean it out, you can't take, take the crappy stuff. It'll make you sick.

Right. On Sunday, you know, again, I think it was Sunday. No, it was Monday. I felt horrible because Sunday was like a free— we had, again, I had had clients in the last week. We'd been traveling, like, and I just was kind of lazy on Sunday, ate some bad food, didn't have some good practices. On Monday, I felt edgy and like cranky. And I was at the end of the day, I'm like, oh my God, this is how I used to feel every single day. Food is everything.

It's right up there. I would put it right under exercise.

So exercise and food are the 2 most important.

Or fitness, if you want to say. But yeah, it's a close tie. Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay. So you're doing all this work, you're getting a reputation in California, and then the medical board didn't like you.

I get in trouble.

I love how you laugh about it.

Yes. Then you get into trouble.

Which is funny because California is like a really progressive state. It was.

It was.

And then they're not. They're like the— isn't it funny that all the states like Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, they're the ones that are leading the charge on like plant medicine and research and all that. And California is like, no, you can't do it. Like all the— anyway.

You can do it as long as you're not a doctor.

Yeah.

Doctors aren't allowed to do that.

Yeah.

You got to be somebody who's not a doctor in order to be able to do things like that. Yeah.

So what happened with you with the state?

Well, you know, I'm doing my thing. And oh, okay. So Linus developed— he started this thing called the Orthomolecular Medical Society back in the late '70s. And so obviously I joined up with that. There were a lot of— a good 250 physicians from the San Francisco Bay Area in that. And we would meet once a year. And after about 3 years, they made me the program director for one of the meetings. And so I called around, and I remember very vividly talking to— now, back then, AIDS was coming out. And AIDS brought to the front the fact that these guys were dying from oxidant stress, from excessive free radicals.

Okay. From oxidants. Okay.

So I'm, I'm in the course of trying to get a lineup for the, for the meeting. I'm talking to this fellow named Charlie Farr. Charlie Farr is an MD-PhD in Omaha. And, and I get him on the phone and he, he talked like an Oklahoma hick, you know, but this guy was one bright dude.

Yeah.

And, and I, he said, look, I got to present to your society. I said, okay, what do you got? He said, I've been infusing hydrogen peroxide into patients' veins and they're getting better. And I thought, wait, wait, hang on now, hang on for just a second. Oh, we know now that oxidants cause disease. We know now that all these guys with AIDS that are dying from oxidant stress, and you're telling me you're going to take a person with the disease and give them an oxidant and they get better? He said, yeah, that's it. They get just— they get better. That's what I do. And I said, okay, you gotta come and talk to our— talk to that meeting and tell me what you're doing. 'Cause it turned out I talked to him some more and he was doing actually some very clever scientific analysis of what he was up to.

Okay.

So he comes, he talks to the meeting, and here's all you got. Like, imagine 250 docs out there all knowing that oxidant stress is terrible, which it is, right? And, uh, and up comes Charlie and he says, um, right off the bat, he says, look, I'm infusing of this oxidant called hydrogen peroxide into patients' veins, and here's the outcome. And towards the end of that hour, people are sitting in the audience going, oh my goodness.

Wait, is that like 2 negatives make a positive? Is that— how does it work?

Well, it works because of Paracelsus.

Okay.

Paracelsus was an alchemist physician back in the 1600s, I think. Okay. Maybe 1400s, I'm not sure. But he was the first guy that came out that said the toxicity of any substance is in the dose. It's not inherent in the substance.

Wow.

That— exactly.

Wow.

That is an absolutely game changer. If you look—

Say that again. It's in the dose, not in the—

The toxicity is in the dose, not inherent in the substance.

That makes total and complete sense.

So, for example, uh, what, like Snake venom. In a high enough dose, it's not good for you.

Right.

In a low dose, it can be good for you.

Smallpox.

Yeah.

Right?

Exactly.

They started— let's just give a small percentage.

He came up with this. Then Arten Schultz in 1904 were nominated for the Nobel Prize for basically proving it in an animal experimental model. And then, uh, forget the fella's name, uh, it'll come to me, but a Canadian in the late 1900s developed a term called hormesis, which basically means the same thing. It means finding the dose. Now, inherently, doctors know this, right? They know if— I mean, this is not giving a drug.

I mean, well, this is kind of how the whole vaccine started, right? With chickenpox. We're going to give a small portion of the chickenpox to you.

A little bit of a bad thing is going to be good. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Okay. So this guy comes and speaks and then what happens?

So basically, that's the deal.

Right.

Patients in oxidant stress, they're sick from oxidant stress. Guess what I'm going to give them? I'm going to give them an oxidant, but in a small dose.

Yeah.

And then that's what Charlie explained to everybody. And all these physicians, me being one, sitting there going, oh my goodness, this is a whole new thing. Who would ever have thought? We're just used to drugs all the time.

Right.

You're giving stuff that is bad for people in small enough dose, and it's actually good for people.

Right.

And so there's just a ton of science to this.

Right.

And that right there, that was like in the early '80s. That was a big game changer for me. That's where I said, oh my goodness, okay, we need to get into this, need to get into this field where we administer oxidants. We could talk a little bit about how it took me to ozone and such.

Yeah, definitely.

That's what got me in trouble.

Why did it— okay, because you were heading the program, because you're the program director and you brought this hayseed in.

So, so basically during that decade, during the '80s, the, the thing in medicine was oxidant stress is terrible, free radicals are terrible. Uh, here's this guy Shallenberger, he's out there injecting free radical oxidants into his patients' bloodstreams. He must be a quack, he must be terrible, this just can't work right, blah blah blah. If you didn't look at the science, It was just like ipso facto, you're not—

You became the poster child of who they wanted to go after.

Yeah.

Did they go after Linus and the other folks?

Well, well, no, because Linus wasn't practicing MD.

Okay.

So the way it works is, oh, you're actually seeing patients and you're practicing MD, you're at risk.

Got it.

Okay. If you're just an MD out there doing research or publication, you're not, you're not at risk.

So then you had to move to Reno or move to Carson City.

So then, then I learned about Nevada and the fact that Nevada They have— you can, at that time, you can get a homeopathic license. So they have a homeopathic medical board here as well as an allopathic or conventional medical board. So I'm licensed under both boards. Now, the homeopathic board is the board that listens to this, this concept of Paracelsus.

Okay.

That they— homeopathy is all built around finding something that causes a problem and then treating that same problem with the same thing that causes the problem, only in a smaller dose.

Brilliant.

Yeah.

Love it. Wow. And then you've been—

That's what we do.

And you've been in Reno, or the Carson— you've been Carson City, Reno since when? For how long?

Since '91.

Since '91?

'91. Yeah. Yeah.

And what's your practice look like today? What is your— I mean, obviously you don't have to go into revenue numbers, but I mean, how many— how big is it? How many patients are you seeing? Tell us a little bit about what life is like.

It's a pretty big deal. I have a pretty big overhead. Uh, you know, I want, I want to get every, I want to get every measuring tool there is. I need to measure every dang thing. And some of them—

I'm afraid to ask how many tools you have.

A lot of, a lot of the measuring, uh, tools that you get, you know, you can get them at various laboratories or there's facilities that'll, that will do things like an MRI scan or something like that. But there's a whole lot of them that are not conventionally available. So I go out and I buy them. So we got a whole bunch of things in my clinic where we measure things that basically hardly anybody ever measures, like oxidant stress, like, you know, how well your mitochondria are working, how well your endothelium is working, and things like this that just aren't typically measured. And so I've got all of that in there. I guess we have something like 15,000 square feet or something like that in there.

Really? Wow.

And about 12 employees, bunch of nurses. We have an IV infusion room, we have detoxification centers, we've got— it's a pretty big deal.

Yeah, sounds like overhead.

Yeah, a lot of, a lot of, you know, keeping track of people and patients. They got what, uh, 1, 2, 3 nurse practitioners and 1 naturopath in there besides me.

Wow.

So we got, we've got a lot of people doing a lot of stuff.

And you're still going strong at 80?

Like, you're still You know, you can't help yourself. I love what I do. Yeah, it's so rewarding. I could tell you stories, but the bottom line is I'm sick and tired of the red tape. If I ever retire, it will not be because I don't like what I'm doing. It will be because something happened to me and I can't work right, or it's going to be I just get fed up with all the red tape and the regulations.

Yeah, they're crazy.

That's more regulations every darn year.

Yep. Yeah, they— a friend of mine once said, if the founding fathers came back and saw what America has become, they would revolt. They would have a revolution. Yeah. I mean, the— I've— I don't know if you know this, but I have since moved to Los Angeles. I'm living in California.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, because that's what every 58-year-old man should do, is increase their tax base and expenses exponentially.

I know your hair's gotten a little bit longer.

Yeah, my hair is longer. Yeah, there'll be more of it sooner one of these days. Yeah, no, I just—

All right, that's cool. That's great.

Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because California is such a progressive state, quote unquote. And I'm like—

In many ways.

In many ways they are.

That medical thing, I wanted to tell you.

In business and medical.

You're getting your butt slammed in California.

No, it's like—

You can't hardly do anything.

You're like, you're going to move your entire operations of the company to California? Go, absolutely not. Yeah, no, there'll be a max. I think I have— there's 3 employees, me, Christine, and I have an assistant. I think that's the max I think I can have. And I'm like, that's it. And he's an independent contractor, 'cause he only works 20 hours a week for us. He does other things as well. But yeah, I mean, I'd rather be in Texas from a regulatory standpoint. It's way friendlier, or Florida. Problem is, is I'm not a big fan of Florida, and I need mountains, and there's limited places for mountains in Texas. And it's hot as hell. It's a cool area.

It's hot as hell in Austin. Awesome area.

So let's talk about oxidant stress. I want to, we have all kinds of different listeners to this. We have some patients, we have some doctors. Some doctors are like, a lot of the doctors that listen to this are just right on the cusp of where you were in the late '70s of like, something ain't right. Okay.

Yeah.

So let's dive deep into oxidative stress.

Okay.

And the mitochondria. Give me a layman's view, like a— like you're explaining it to my— well, my grandmother.

Okay. So, so I think the basic concept is this. Life really is about the movement of electrons.

Okay.

It's about moving electrons around. Now, molecules— an atom consists of a nucleus and electrons surrounding the nucleus.

Okay.

And those electrons have to be moving. And when 2 substances come together, what's going on is the electrons are moving between them.

Okay.

So keeping that in mind, uh, what we, what we do is we take in oxygen. Oxygen is an electron mover. Okay.

Okay.

And then we take in food. Food breaks down into carbon and hydrogen. And so the carbon and the hydrogen get into the cell, the oxygen gets into the cell, and in this thing called the electron transport system, it transports electrons. Oxygen at one end of that system is pulling the electrons towards it.

Okay.

And the carbon and hydrogen molecules providing those electrons.

Okay.

And they're moving over to oxygen. So what you end up doing is you end up taking a very high-energy molecule called oxygen— it's got a lot of energy packed in there.

Okay.

It blows up, it's flammable, etc. A lot of energy in it.

Okay.

And you end up converting that into the lowest-energy molecule in the world, H2O, water. You take the oxygen—

Okay.

You mix it with the hydrogen, you get water. So you're going from the highest energy molecule in the world by moving electrons. It gets transferred to the lowest energy molecule in the world. Energy gets released.

Okay.

That's what keeps us alive, is that energy. And basically you could think of us as kind of like a radio or a flashlight, you know. It could be a great radio or a great flashlight, but it needs energy. It's not gonna do anything. And we're like that. We need energy. And to the extent that we're deprived of energy, or to the extent we have a lot of energy— and I'm talking about cellular energy, not the kind you get from coffee and such, right?

Yeah, yeah, you're not talking about the stuff that comes from stimulants.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm talking about what happens in your cells, basically. As long as you have enough energy in those cells, you're not going to get sick. That's the ultimate imbalance. Is not enough energy.

So sickness comes from that imbalance?

Yes. Not enough electron movement is really what it boils down to.

Okay. So that's why we have a chronic disease issue and why people are more obese than they were, because, and then they don't have that energy. Like if I'm thinking about it in layman's terms, like if I think about, okay, well, the easiest way to lose weight is change your food and move more, eat less, move, eat better, move more, not less, eat better, move more. But if I have low— if I've got oxidative stress and I don't have those electrons aren't moving, then I'm not going to have the energy to go out and work out?

That's the source of the oxidant stress.

Okay.

Is the electrons need to move along this nice beautiful little chain called the electron transport system. They're moving from complex 1 to complex 2, complex 3, complex 4, and ending up with oxygen. But those, if they move smoothly through that chain, you get very minimal free radicals or oxidants produced. To the extent they don't move smoothly, there's something interfering with that. And we can talk about what that would be. But to the extent they're not moving freely, they produce excess free radicals and oxidants. That's the source of it.

Can you measure the—

Yes.

So you can measure this?

I can measure it.

How do you measure it?

About 25 years ago, I developed a computerized system using VO2 analysis and VCO2 analysis. to actually be able to measure that. Because while all that's going on, as oxygen's being consumed by a person, that person's also producing carbon dioxide as a waste product.

Okay.

And if you measure both of them at the same time, you can measure how efficiently things are going on in that cell in your body.

So is this like a VO2 max? Is it similar to that?

The VO2 max is, is really good for athletes.

Okay, good for guys like you and I, per se.

The guy with the highest VO2 max is going to win the race.

Okay.

Kind of, as long as he's tough. Okay, but for you and me, VO2 max is not an issue.

Okay.

What VO2 max is doing is it's measuring how much oxygen I can process into energy, plus how much energy I can make without oxygen. Now that's called anaerobic energy. We don't need anaerobic energy.

Okay.

If you're going to run a race, you do.

But for every day, what do we need?

I just need the standard, how much oxygen, what's my maximum oxygen energy production? And that's called aerobic capacity.

And where do you want that number to be? Is there a range?

Well, what I do is I measure aerobic capacity on the patients. Then I compare them to a database of young people.

So in my case, I'm 58. So you would measure me and then—

I would compare you to a 40-year-old.

Okay, great.

So I would come on to you and I would say, okay, looking at your mitochondrial function, you're functioning along the lines of a 34-year-old And then you would be happy.

Yeah.

And then if I came and I told you, along, you know, we're looking at you and you're functioning along the lines of a 70-year-old man, you would not be happy.

Right.

And, and that's really why 70-year-old guys get sicker than 40-year-old guys. So 40-year-old guys are moving electrons better.

Right. Is this like cellular age? Is that essentially what you're calling it?

It's basically that kind of thing.

Right.

It all boils down The energy.

So, and oxygen is that key.

Yeah. So one of my first books was Bursting with Energy. Yes. That's what I call it. Bursting with Energy.

Yep.

Because the whole dang thing's about energy and what Linus was talking about, what all the early luminaries was talking about, and that sugar thing we were just talking about. And then the other thing we haven't talked about with like mercury and heavy metals and lead and cadmium and all that kind of thing, all of those things, why are they bad for you? They're bad for you because they screw up that system that moves electrons. And because that system is screwed up, you are deprived of energy and at the same time have an excessive amount of oxidative stress. That's a bad combo. And you go down that road, you will get sick. Conversely, if you make good cellular energy and you're 85 years old, you don't get sick.

Is this why— are you a big proponent of using NAD?

Yeah, yeah. And it's— yeah, I could tell you a great NAD story, how I got into this.

Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Yeah, tell me.

All right, so in the process, in the process of oxygen moving these electrons around and getting the electron from the hydrogen, all that kind of stuff, uh, what is produced is something called NAD, uh, nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. NAD. All the good stuff that energy does in the body, not all of it, but most of the— most of the majority is facilitated by that molecule, NAD+. The other molecule is ATP. Everybody's heard ATP. But between ATP and NAD+ and this couple other what we call intermediates, those are what facilitate the energy. So you build up this energy.

Okay, so NAD+, ATP+.

Now you gotta use the energy. NAD is what helps you use the energy.

How does it help you use the energy? Does it make it more efficient?

It gets really complex. Okay, there's a whole bunch of reactions that go on in the body, in the cell. All these reactions—

So it creates more efficiency?

All these chemical reactions, they require NAD, and they get the NAD through this process of moving the electrons. Okay, so if you've got somebody who's not moving those electrons well, guess what happens to their NAD level? Because it's going to go down and they're going to feel crappy.

Okay.

They're going to get sick. So, uh, I want to say 6, 7 years ago, something like that, some kid calls me up in Southern California. He's 40 years old. He says, uh, I have not been able to work for 20 years. I am so fatigued. I'm on disability. The doctors don't know what the hell's going on with me. I don't know what to do. And I said, dude, I know what your problem is. You ain't moving electrons. So get, get your butt on up here. He was in Southern Cal and he has to drive up to Reno. So, um, eventually he comes up and he shows up, he walks in the door. Now, when people come into my clinic, pretty much the first thing I do is measure their mitochondria.

Okay.

So he walks in my door with his mitochondrial test and, uh, and he's— I said, well, how you doing? He says, oh, I feel like a million bucks. So what do you mean you feel like a million bucks? You just told me this story the other day. He said, yeah, but on the way up here, I was driving down Highway 1. I was going up Highway 1. I went through this little place called San Luis Obispo where the Hearst Castle is.

Yep, just there. It was just there a couple weeks ago.

Yeah. Oh yes, it's gorgeous.

Made an offer, they didn't accept.

Try later.

It's going to move. I was going to move in. Go ahead, keep— because we talked about San Luis.

Anyhow, he said there's a clinic there that was infusing NAD+ into patients. And that had been around at that point because some of the scientists discovered, some of the clinicians discovered that giving NAD+ to patients that are trying to detoxify off heroin and/or alcohol really helped them a lot.

Yeah.

Guess why? Guess why? They didn't have enough NAD+. But anyway, so these clinics, these addicts, or addicts because they don't have enough NAD+. And they would go into the clinic and the clinic would give an infusion every day for 10 days. And that was the end of it. And there's more to that story, obviously.

Right.

But he said, I was driving through there and I saw this thing. I thought, you know, I'm going to do that. So he goes in there and he spent 10 days in there. And then he comes up to see me. His mitochondrial test was awesome. He felt like a million bucks. And then I thought, oh my goodness, that really is a jump start. You know, actually, I want him to make his own NAD+. That's my goal.

Okay.

I don't want him to have to go into the clinic and get an IV infusion every day, but I want him to make his own. But this jump started him big to the point where he's now making his own.

Yeah. I know. Were you— there's some people out there Saying you can take pills of NAD+.

Yeah, you can't. Doesn't work.

Yeah, okay. And why? Why doesn't it work?

Uh, well, I can— all I can say is it doesn't work.

Okay.

Now, why it doesn't work is probably it's not getting properly absorbed. Yeah, the molecules are absorbed into the bloodstream. Maybe it can't be that it doesn't work in the cell because the IV works in the cell, right? But somehow this— it just doesn't translate through a pill.

You know, it's funny, I started doing NAD 2 years ago, and man, those first 3 IVs were fucking hell. Like 3 and a half hours. And I, I mean, it's— is there any way to— is that a sign that you're low on NAD if it really is painful? Like, if it's— because it felt like it was an elephant on my chest, and I felt like I was gonna shit myself.

Remember, we were just talking about dose. Okay, okay. So, so that's too high a dose. That's the way I look at that. Okay. That's my take. So, you were probably getting anywhere from 400 to 800 milligrams over a 4 or 5-hour period, something like that.

Yeah. I mean, it was there for 3+ hours.

We do 50 milligrams sub-Q. Patient does it at home 3 times a week. Yeah.

So, I do 42 now 3 times a week.

Yeah. Okay. So, you're on the money.

Yeah. But, I started with an IV loading dose and that's kind of the standard. Do you do that?

It is for a lot of people.

Okay, not for you. You just start, you just go right to the injections.

Yeah, I go right to the 50, 3 times a week. Of course, we do a bunch of other things.

Right, right.

But that's all the NAD I think they need.

Okay.

For the most part.

Yeah, I mean, everybody's got their—

Yeah. Right.

I mean, I will say this. It's funny, 'cause I, again, I was on vacation and then I ran out and I haven't had my NAD for like 2 weeks. Boy, you noticed.

Did you really notice that, huh?

Yeah, not a lot. I, I did note when I was feeling off on Monday, um, it's not like my Sunday free day was I was eating pizza and pancakes. Like, it, you know, a free day for me is, I don't know, whatever. I don't drink as much water, right? Like, I don't drink alcohol anymore. It's not like I made a plate of brownies and ate them or anything like that. Um, maybe we ordered pizza, right? Like, that was probably my cheat. Um, but then I was like, oh yeah, I've been out of my stuff for like 10 days because I had an appointment coming up with Will, and then, you know, on Monday just to go over my blood work. But yeah, I notice it in like 10 days. I will notice it. Now, I'll also notice it when I get back home on Saturday and my box is there and I begin injecting myself 3 times a week. I will notice it as well because I will get a little burpy and I'll get like a little like indigestion, you know, uh, heartburn kind of stuff. I will notice it for the first week to 10 days, even starting out at 42. units. So fascinating.

Yeah, some people are really sensitive. You give them that—

But that's not an indication, and I'm not asking you to prescribe me, to diagnose me, but is that an indication? Would you say that if you heard that somebody had to take a lower dose, does that mean that's maybe they've—

I think that is a good sign.

Oh, it's a good sign?

Yeah.

Okay, good.

Yeah, that they're getting— that they're getting sicker at lower doses means to me, hey, they're making plenty of NAD already. You're overloading them. You're throwing them out of balance. Ah, this balance is the whole thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right. So, and then you had— you wanted me to dive into heavy metals. So let's dive into that. I've read a lot about this. And I've been at conferences where they like, come over here, stick your feet in this thing. And like, you soak your feet, and it pulls all these things out of it. And based on the color, it's an indication of these things. You know, I've always looked at the heavy metal stuff, like the treatments of it, like the soaking of the feet, As that seems odd. Yeah, but for sure it does seem odd. Okay. But I guess walk me through what are the heavy metals that are poison to us? Where and where do we kind of— why? How do we fix these things and how do we— what's important, what's not?

Yes. So back in the '40s, guys would go in the Navy, guys would go down into the diesel tanks and clean them out. They drop them, you know, like they're going to a cave or something.

What a horrible job.

And it was a horrible job. And they got all lead toxic because there was lead in the diesel fuel. And, uh, and then, and so they, the Navy would bring them out and they'd give them this, what they call a chelation therapy with EDTA, and that would pull the lead out of their body. Okay. Well, after about 2 or 3 years of this, some doctors started noticing, oh, that patient that's getting the chelation therapy to get the lead out, Because he works in this diesel situation, his heart's getting better. His blood pressure's going down. He's having better cardiac function. And that's where all that started.

Wow.

Prior to then, nobody really was paying any— obviously they weren't paying any attention to sending guys down into a diesel tank.

Now, if we had had OSHA and it was in place, we never would have discovered chelation.

Yeah, exactly. But so, so then So then it became popular with alternative-minded sorts of doctors to, a patient had a cardiovascular condition, give them EDTA and start pulling lead out.

Really? So how do you do this? How does chelation work?

Basically, it's an infusion. There's different versions of chelation. There's a pill version, there's a rectal version, and there's an IV version. Basically what these are all— there's a number of chelating substances. We're kind of talking about the major one called EDTA. But what they do is once they get into your system, they have a very high affinity for lead and for mercury and for arsenic, EDTA does.

Mm-hmm.

And maybe for a few other little odds and ends, but those are the biggies. And you put that into your body, it grabs those minerals, And takes them out of your body.

How does it— where does it move? Does it move them through urine?

Urine. It goes out in your urine.

Okay.

So that's one of the tests we do. So I could, uh, I can have a guy come in and be thinking, you know, maybe he's got a problem with lead or mercury, and I'll measure the amount of lead or mercury in his urine after I give him a dose of EDTA, see how much stuff comes out. If a whole bunch of stuff comes out, I'm thinking, oh, you must have a whole bunch of stuff in there.

Right.

If not much comes out, you think the opposite. And so you get— but here's the thing that ties this together. There's 2 major fundamental problems with us as we get older and get sicker. The 2 basic ones, which by the way, just happen to be completely ignored by conventional medicine. But there's 2 fundamental areas that cause us to get ill. One of them we just talked about, the movement of electrons in the electron transport system. The other one is what they call the endothelium, which is the inner lining of the arteries. That endothelium plays a huge role in how much blood can get to your cells. Now, keep in mind, if the blood can't get to your cells well, that means your cell doesn't get the oxygen that it needs. So then that screws up the oxygen— the electron transport chain.

So, is it like the clogging of the arteries, like cardiac calcium scores?

Yeah. So, now we're getting around to this.

Okay, cool.

So, why is it that doing EDTA makes cardiovascular problems better? Because the lead hangs out in the endothelium and poisons it, and the endothelium won't work, and you can't get good circulation. If you can't get circulation, that electron transfer system doesn't work. And, if that's already kind of bad anyway. You put those 2 problems together, you got a big problem on your hands.

Wow.

And that's what happens to us as we get older. And that's why I have to measure those things. So we met 2 major measurements. One is I want to measure what's going on in electron transport chain. And the other one is I want to measure what's going on in your endothelium. And if your endothelium is kind of crappy, guess what you're going to get? We're going to start pulling heavy metals out because that's There's about 10 different reasons the endothelium can be crappy. Smoking's one.

Wow.

But heavy metals are right in there. Inflammation's one. High insulin levels are one. Hyperglycemia is one. High iron levels are one. Well, stress is one. High blood pressure is one. All of these things damage the endothelium. And when I go through that list, probably doctors out there are thinking, yeah, well, those are all the things that we see with people that have cardiovascular disease. Yeah, they got diabetes, they got high insulins, they got high blood sugars, you know, they're smokers, all that stuff. We already know that. But here's why. Because all of those things damage the endothelium. And if you measure the endothelium on a patient like I do, and you see, you know, it's not working so well, that you better fix that before you start dealing with anything else. You better look at his electron transport chain and you better look at his endothelium. Get those 2 things together and you're off to a good start.

Wow. Is this the same with cancer patients too?

Everybody.

Everybody.

100%. This is— those 2 factors are behind every disease there is. And we can talk about each disease and how they influence that. But cancer's a really— cancer and diabetes are kind of the hallmark, and circulation, kind of the hallmark diseases of this.

So let's talk a little bit about cancer.

Okay.

Because I want to— and then we're going to talk about obviously the ozone stuff. So cancer, very much this, you're looking at it the same thing as you would like saying with the cardiovascular. So you're looking at the electron transport in the endothelium. Why, what makes it so that instead of like a heart issue, it's going to manifest as a cancer issue?

Warburg, back, a guy named Warburg, you might've heard of him, but back in the '30s, and he was nominated for Nobel Prize. I don't think he ever got one, but I think he was nominated for one. Uh, he was the first to show, and, and, and what he found out was, is, is still agreed upon. He was the first one to show that cancer cells don't need oxygen. So any healthy cell needs oxygen, needs to get the energy. Cancer cells find another way to get energy. They don't need the electron transport chain.

What do they need?

Now, there's— that's not 100% true for every cancer, but the majority of cancers— Warburg was able to show this 100 years ago. That cancer cells thrive in an environment that's very low in oxygen.

Okay.

Okay. So what this means is that when your mitochondria are not working effectively and you're not processing that oxygen effectively, you're setting up an environment that's conducive to cells turning cancerous. That's kind of the short story. That's the easy explanation.

So the increase of the oxygen doesn't It doesn't fix— if somebody has cancer, it doesn't fix the cancer.

Cancer doesn't care.

Right. It's the presence of the oxygen that—

It's the lack of oxygen they like.

Right. So, if we have increased oxygen, then we're reducing the probability.

So, let's say I'm a guy and I'm smoking. And, we all know that's going to cut back your oxygen levels. And, let's say I live in an environment like Los Angeles or Chicago maybe where the And the air is not so good. It's going to be lower in oxygen tension versus living in Brazil or something. And let's say I'm just out of shape and my electron transport is not working well because I'm just deconditioned. I'm set up to get cancer. I'm creating cancer in my body.

Mm-hmm.

Because I'm decreasing the oxygen availability at the cellular level. And when you do that, Certain cells are going to transform, adapt to that environment by turning cancerous, because cancer doesn't need oxygen.

Wow.

It's an adaptation. When you get cancer, that means that your cell— you've created an environment in your cells that is conducive to certain cells adapting to that bad environment by turning cancerous.

So then you're a big fan of Hyperbaric chambers to help with that?

I'm not a big fan of that. Okay. So hyperbaric is going to provide oxygen to the area, but it's a little after the fact. Now, I think you could use hyperbaric certainly in individuals that don't have diagnosed cancer.

And yeah, I'm saying like as a preventative to get cancer.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now we can talk. But once they get the cancer, The cancer doesn't really care if there's oxygen there or not.

So increased oxygen isn't going to make the cancer go away?

Not in my mind. Some may argue with me and think that it's beneficial, and you maybe can make a point about that, but I do not think of that as any kind of cancer treatment.

So what gives the cancer the energy? Is it sugar?

Yes, in a nutshell.

In a nutshell.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's how cancers live. Healthy cells can live off fat.

Okay.

And sugar. Cancer cells, not so much. Cancer cells are sick cells. They're not adaptable like a healthy cell is. They can't do the stuff that a healthy cell can. They're very limited. They like a very tiny little certain environment. It wants to be an acid environment. It wants to be a low oxygen environment, which tend to go hand in hand. And it wants to be an environment where there's high levels of sugar. And you put all those together, And maybe a few other toxins and carcinogens and such like that, you're going to get a cell that's going to start turning cancerous, and then it's going to find itself in an environment that's very friendly to it.

Wow.

And it's going to say, okay, I'll hang out here and I'll grow here. And sooner or later it becomes a problem. Okay.

So patient comes to see you with cancer, and I'm just talking in general. I know that there's various forms. What do you do? How do you— because you do, you get people coming to you that have cancer.

Yeah. Well, you know, my bag basically is to make sure none of my patients get cancer. That's actually my bag. But the fact is that, you know, unfortunately I have to see people that have cancer.

Right.

And so, you know, I work with oncologists and they're out— you got to kill the cancer with something.

Right.

You kill it with surgery, you kill it with radiation, you kill it with chemo, you kill it with biologicals, whatever you're going to do. But once the cancer's in there, you got to kill it.

Right.

Okay. But while you're killing it, change the environment of your body. Ah, because here's the darn problem with oncology today.

Okay.

They just kill cancer. They don't treat the cause. And that's actually—

so we're coming in from 2 plates. They're going to do the radiation, their chemo. You're not saying don't— no, you're not saying don't say chemo, radiation. Yeah, you got to do that.

You don't do that, you're stupid.

But you're going to rebuild the scaffolding inside the body.

You got the problem with conventional medicine, if you want to boil it down, is they don't address causes. Right back to the guy with the broken leg.

There's no money.

He goes into the ER and he says, take a Prozac. Yeah. They're not treating the leg. They're not treating the cause. So oncologists kill the cancer cell, but they don't at all even consider— they don't ask the question, what caused this cancer. Patients will come in to see me and they'll be diagnosed with cancer. One of the first questions out of my mouth is, what caused the cancer? And the patient's gonna scratch his head and say, what do you mean? Didn't it just drop on me? No, it didn't just drop on you, dude. You caused the cancer. Well, but I got genetics in my family. Yes, that plays about a 20% role. That's what the statistics say.

But it's also you learn in the environment that created the cancer, the environment for the cancer to live, right? You know, like, I could sit here and I could say, you know, I, in my— as Will, my Will Haas, my doctor tells me, he's like, yeah, you know, like, I struggle with— I mean, I'm at 16.5% body fat, right? I'm 58 years old. It's very good.

Yeah.

By standard numbers, I have to be at like 10 or 11, because when I'm at that number, my triglycerides are up, my A1C is borderline, right? And He's just like, yeah, part of that is genetics, but also I grew up in a household where dessert was like the standard fare. Alcohol was served at every meal, right? There was no physical exercise. I grew up in an environment that perpetuated that. So I agree with you. It's not just genetics. People want to lay it on genetics. Environment, I think, plays— what would you say? Is it 60%?

Well, the NIH years ago, back in the '90s, said the environment— genetics plays 10% role. And, and if you look at identical twin studies, you can get anywhere from 10% to maybe a 30% in certain diseases.

Okay.

But overwhelmingly it's—

Overwhelmingly. So it's like 60% environment.

You can have identical twins and they're split up and they live in different environments. They have different risk diseases. Yeah. Of the disease. One will get Parkinson's, the other one doesn't, simply from the environment. Wow.

Yeah, it really is. Environment is everything.

I mean, yeah.

It's why I, it's why I work so hard to curate it, my environment. I work very, very hard. Like, that is one of the things, you know, and I recently just moved to LA. Um, look, LA's got its— it's like any place, it's got its benefits and its negatives, right? Some positives and negatives. But, um, the one thing that I love is I love to go hiking in the mountains.

Mm-hmm.

Now, I didn't necessarily have that in Charlotte, and in Arizona you can't do it 6 months out of the year because it's so fucking hot, right? So I make it a point that I go hiking 1 to 2 times a week.

Yeah, that's great.

Right? And I got a weighted backpack, 20 pounds.

That's fabulous for— yeah, especially if you're wearing some weight.

Yeah, the weighted backpack is awesome. Yeah, so, you know, you just, you try to— for me, I try to make the best of the environment that I have, and I travel a lot like you do, like It's hard. Planes— people are always like, why do you fly first class? Why do you do this? I'm like, it's all about environment. It's all about lowering stress. It's all about creating an environment so that I can do more of this. Because guys like you and I are called to go out and do these things, right? That's part of our calling. So yeah, I'm a big, big proponent of environment, and that's why I invest so much money and time in it. Yeah, my friends are like, what are you doing?

You got— you got to work at this a little bit.

You got to work at this a little bit. That's why I don't have alcohol in the house either.

Yeah, it's just not— it's not gonna like Yeah. In fact, if you're gonna do anything automatically, you automatically do the wrong thing.

Isn't that amazing?

Yeah, that's just what we do.

I know, it's like as soon as I get lazy, I find chocolate chip cookies in the house. It's like, why? I know I shouldn't eat these. I don't care how pure they are. And instead of eating one, I eat 10. I can never stop and eat just one.

You know, one of the cool things is, that's another cool thing that you just reminded me of, of measuring things. You're— so you're out doing all this stuff, okay? And you're wondering to yourself sometimes, is this really working?

Yeah, all the time.

Okay.

Or I think I'm superhuman and I can get away with it.

Wouldn't it be cool to get your mitochondria tested and your endothelium tested, and I come to you and I say, dude, you're remarkable, what you're doing is actually working? That would be very cool. Yeah, you would leave the office thinking to yourself, Well, I guess I don't have to wonder. I mean, I got objective evidence that my electron transport system's working well, my circulation's working well. I'm apparently not toxic. I'm doing pretty well. I guess I'll stay on my game. So it's very reassuring to patients that they're doing that, 'cause people out there are like taking 20 supplements. And I know in the back of their head, they're thinking, do I really need all this crap?

I know.

You know, what's all this about? That's where measurements come in handy. And then it works the other way too, because if some guy comes in and he's doing all this stuff, he's taking 20 pills or whatever, and he measures out not so good, he now knows, I guess what I'm doing isn't fitting for my particular genetics. It might work for that guy over there, but for me, apparently it doesn't work. So let's switch up. Let's find something that works.

Yeah. It's, um, what is the— like, how long do these tests take? How long does it take to go through them? How long does it take to get the results?

Takes to do the mitochondrial type test about 45 minutes, something in that zone. To do the endothelial test, about 20 minutes. So, you know—

Within an hour and a half to within 2 hours, you've got it.

So what's normal for me is patients come in, whether they're sick, healthy, whatever their deal is, unless they can't actually perform the test, which is unusual but can happen, they automatically get that test before I even see them.

Oh, that's great.

So they walk in the door. I'm going to spend an hour or 2 with them talking with them about their situation. But I got this incredible data.

I'm going to have to fly up and do this test, Frank. I'm going to pick a time. I'll come up. I don't have time on this trip, but—

Probably totally ace it. But that would be good for you to come back.

So what? Like, I just— I mean, why wouldn't you want to have that data?

Exactly.

Right? Like, you know, there's— it's— I tell this story quite a bit. You know, when I was 13, my father dropped dead when he was 60. He had AFib, right? We're watching baseball game.

Yeah.

Sitting right next to him.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's the right look to have. No shit. He had his mitral valve replaced in October. He had congestive heart failure in September, mitral valve replaced in October, had arrhythmia over Christmas, and then he was recovering and we were watching a baseball game and then his heart went out of rhythm, right? You know, beats like 400 beats a minute. You know, they resuscitate him. So that leaves a mark, by the way. In case you're wondering, like sitting next to him watching that, like I'm like, oh, I got to stay in shape. I was actually an out of shape, fat little kid at that point, and that changed my trajectory. Like I got in shape. I didn't consciously start to work out, but like all of a sudden I was like I was on swim team. I was swimming a lot more. I got in shape. I lost a lot of weight. I grew. Like I just got healthier. And so it's interesting to me how life. Situations move you in either a direction of, yeah, fuck it, it's just gonna happen to me at 60, or I'm gonna make sure that doesn't happen to me at 60.

Different choices.

Isn't that interesting?

You chose to go that way. It's fascinating. It is fascinating how we do that.

It's kind of like the choice you made. You decided that, you know what, these patients aren't getting any more healthy, they're getting sicker on these things.

Yeah, yeah, we're not— because you're not dealing with the problem. Yeah, let's deal with the problem.

Let's, let's talk about your— what I would be considered some of the greatest work that you're doing for the medical industry and for our, for our entire community. You have the Ozone Association. When I was at your event 2 years ago in Orlando, you had probably, what, 800 attendees? 600 to 800?

Close to that. Yeah.

When I go to a lot of events, that's one of the bigger ones. A4M is there. IOF is there.

A4M is like—

It's frickin' 12,000.

It's insane.

I know. We're going to be there. We have a booth this year and I'm like, all right, but we got to be there. Um, and the other one that's close that I go to, the IOF/Toby Regenerative Therapy event, that's now about 600. The work that you're doing there is really groundbreaking. I mean, you've really pioneered ozone therapy in this country. I call you the godfather of ozone therapy. You're really the reason why. And I know 60% of my doctors use it, at least.

Oh, good.

Yeah, no, a lot of them. My biologics doctors are not as on board, but if they move into the functional medicine space like the Schachters have, then they usually add it.

Yeah, if you start seeing sick people, you want to have that available to you. If all you're seeing is non-sick people, maybe not.

Right. So what did you— tell me about that story. How did that come to be? 'Cause you really brought it, didn't you bring it into this country from Germany? Is that kind of— if I remember the story correctly.

Going back to the Charlie Farr story where he did the hydrogen peroxide thing, thing. Hydrogen peroxide is, is, is, is, is an oxidant. The nature of an oxidant is it moves an electron. That's inherent in what an oxidant is. So another oxidant is ozone. Now ozone is, is an oxygen deficient or an electron deficient molecule.

Okay.

It consists of 3 oxygen atoms which are deficient. That, that 3-some there is deficient in electrons. So if you put ozone into the body, it's going to immediately start moving electrons.

Okay.

It's going to grab and start moving them around. And, uh, so what I— Charlie was doing his own thing in Omaha with this hydrogen peroxide. And then I learned about the— oh, the Germans have been using ozone therapy, which is also another electron, uh, acceptor. It has been used since 1905.

Really?

There's a huge history in it. Charlie doesn't have a huge history, but back then in the '80s, I've started researching this, said, oh my goodness, this, this is not the new guy on the block. Ozone therapy used to be used in American hospitals routinely up until the '30s, right? Yeah, it was right. Nikola Tesla was the first guy to invent an ozone generator for medical purposes.

Really?

Yeah. The literature—

God, he was brilliant.

Loyola University had a course on ozone therapy in 1885. It's incredible. So I looked at that, and that's the thing that has always impressed me, is something that's been there for a long time and has a lot of literature associated with it. And unlike with Charlie, his— he had the thing going, it was obvious he was on to something. But I was really attracted more to the ozone side. because of all the scientific studies and clinical studies and the fact that the Germans were all on it. They wrote books on it. They wrote papers on it way back in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s. And that's what impressed me. I know its physiology. I know its physics. I know its biochemistry. And I know its clinical applications.

And what were they finding out? What were these studies showing the Germans when they were doing ozone therapy on their patients? What were some of the outcomes?

It's almost like Like a panacea. They would use it on darn near anything and patients would get better.

Really?

Yeah.

Wound care?

I'm not saying they would get cured.

Right, they wouldn't get cured, but they would—

But they might get cured, but they would always get better. But yeah, you mentioned wound care, especially in wound care. It's absolutely instrumental in the repair process and the regeneration process.

I gotta tell you a really funny story. So when I got divorced from my first wife, living in Charlotte, I was a member of a private country club. And the group that I— and I was traveling a lot then. And the group that I played golf with, I sent an email out to all the guys saying, hey, Sarah and I are divorcing. I just need a— a lot of these guys had massive homes, like 7,000 square foot homes, 10,000 square foot homes, like 2 people living in it, or they had guest houses. And I'm like, look, any one of you have like a guest house or like a— some— I need 90 days so I can— I got to get out of the house and I'm traveling a lot and that's going to end in like 60 days. I need like 90 days. So this guy emails me back, barely know him, and he's like, yeah, we got like 7,000 square feet. And he goes, I got 4 bedrooms, 3 baths upstairs. I haven't been up there in 3 years. Have at it. So I move in there and they were big drinkers. They had 2 full bars, like 23 TVs, like it was the party house, right? And he made his fortune in pharmaceuticals, made a ton, and then frankly became an alcoholic. And then he was all excited because the new thing that he was working on— was wound care. And instead of the bandage, they had a device where they blew oxygen on it and it increased healing, like cut healing in half or whatever it was. Right. And that was his next run that he was working on. Right. And I remember the first time I heard you, I thought of that because when I first heard him say, wait, you don't cover it up and like put a salve on? He's like, no, we leave it open and we put oxygen on it. And the healing, you know, show me the data. And I was like, Huh. And then I heard you speak and I went, oh, the light bulb went on. I'm like, I get it now. It makes a huge difference. So how should doctors be using ozone therapy? Is it a— what's the best— is it something you should be doing monthly, weekly? What's the best way? What are going to be some of the benefits that people are going to see if they're using— do you use it just when they're sick or do you use it as preventative?

Uh, you could use it as a preventative, but really ozone therapy, you kind of think of it as exercise in a bottle.

Okay.

If you can exercise, you get, you get the same benefit you would get from ozone oxygen therapies, but 20 other benefits.

Okay.

Right? But so ozone oxygen therapies are instrumental in patients who are fighting a problem.

Okay.

Yeah, that could be Parkinson's, it could be heart disease, it could be certainly infectious diseases. If they got a problem, that's where you— if you're a doctor out there and you're seeing patients actually sick, you need to know about ozone oxygen therapy, period. Unless you don't really care if you get extra oomph in your results. If you don't really care about your results, fine.

Right.

But if you want to get that edge, most doctors want to get the edge. All of us doctors, I don't care what the specialty is, how good we are, how long we've been practicing medicine, whatever it is, there's always that subset. And I want to say it's something like 10, 15% of patients That as hard as we work, we can't get them over the hump. Now, there's all kinds of reasons for that. Half the time it's because the patients won't do what we tell them.

Well, there is that. There is the compliance issue.

Yeah, but all of us are kind of looking for that edge. Ozone's a big edge, huge edge.

What are your favorite things to use it? You said Parkinson's. Are there— do you have like your trinity of things that you like to use it for?

Cardiovascular is probably number one.

Okay, so if somebody's dealing with like high cardiac calcium score, that's high, or they've had heart issues or open heart surgery?

Yeah, cardiovascular symptoms in my world, slam dunk. Okay, I don't even worry about it. Not even— cancer, not so much, but cardiovascular, strokes, heart disease, heart failure, all that. 100% curable. See you later. It can be very helpful with oncology, obviously, because it's going to treat the cause.

Right. So while they're doing their chemo and radiation, you have them come do ozone.

Exactly. Now, what's interesting, I just thought of it, and I want to mention that for the audience, and that is while ozone and hydrogen peroxide are oxidants, that means they take electrons And that we're moving electrons. Vitamin C is doing the same thing. It's giving electrons. Okay, so the 2 together really move those electrons around.

Wow.

So you combine them. That's the really wild thing. You combine the electron taker called an oxidant with the electron donor called vitamin C. There's other electron donors, but But vitamin C is right in there because when you were talking about wound healing and such, if you take some vitamin C powder and throw it on the wound, guess what? It works just as good as the oxygen.

Really?

Yeah, it's just moving electrons. All that healing process requires a lot of electron movement for the regeneration to take place.

Wow.

So all these guys that are doing regenerative medicine, they throw ozone in there, bingo, their, their odds on, on quick healing just went up a lot.

Okay, so are you doing ozone just where it's Channeling through the blood? Are you doing ozone and injecting it like into the joint area? How are you doing this? Like, why do you recommend that you do this?

Yes, so one of the beauties of ozone therapy is that it's so applicable to so many things. Okay, it's not like you go to a seminar and you learn something that you're going to use on every 40th patient. This is something that you will probably use on every single patient you see, so it's very applicable. And the other thing is, it's all kinds of ways to To get it in there. So if you have a problem with a joint in the body, you inject ozone oxygen in there. If you have a problem with the tooth, the dentist injects ozone oxygen in there. You got a problem with your sinuses, you inject ozone oxygen in there. If you got a problem with your spinal cord, you inject ozone oxygen right into the caudal epidural space. You can inject ozone oxygen into bladder. We can cure bladder cancers, most of them, by injecting ozone oxygen into the bladder.

Mm-hmm.

We can give it IM, we can give it sub-Q, you can put it in ears for ear problems, you can put it down, and you can put it on wounds to clean up wounds. If you have an infection with a virus, there is no viral infection ever, including what, Ebola? Ebola and COVID, there's no virus at all that doesn't respond to ozone therapy. 100%.

Really?

100% of all infections, even bacterial, even fungal. No fungus, no bacteria, no virus can survive in the presence of adequately moving electrons. Period. End of story. See you later. No resistance. None of that. It's a— if you're an infectious disease doc, or let's just say you're a family doc and people come into you with viruses or cellulitis or whatever the heck they got. You add ozone to that, bingo, your odds just went up huge.

When COVID was going, I'm sure you were busy as hell.

Yeah, I mean, we were the only guys in all of Northern Nevada that were actually treating patients, right? Because we knew that it was going to take care of it, right?

And you were using—

I wasn't worried about it.

You were using ozone?

Yeah, amongst other things, right? Among— yeah.

But like, how were you applying the ozone? How was it just—

blood, like blood.

Okay, so you're doing the blood where it goes in one arm, exchanges?

Yeah, yeah, you pull blood out, you expose it to ozone, put that treated blood back into the patient.

Wow.

And it's easy to do. Not a big deal, by the way.

Right, yeah.

If people are looking at this and thinking, well, that sounds like a big pain in the butt, it's not.

It's really easy. I've had it.

Yeah.

And that's when I found out I was allergic to heparin.

Oh, well, that's one way to find out.

Remember I was telling you this? I don't know if you remember, I was telling you this story on the cruise. I'm like, so I'm getting it, and Will Haas, Dr. Haas is like, all right, we're gonna have you do ozone. And I'm doing it, and I'm sitting there, and you got your arms like this, and all of a sudden my nose is itching, and I can't move my arm to itch, right? I've got the, uh, I've got these light things on, like the meditation thing that Patrick Porter, the brain tap thing, you know. And I'm gonna be sitting there and I'm zoning. I'm like, my face is itching, my neck is itching. And all of a sudden I feel a tap on my hand. Will lifts the visor of the brain tap thing. He goes, you didn't tell me you're allergic to heparin. And I go, what are you talking about? He holds up a phone and I look at him like I'm bright as a writing— bright as a tomato. He's like, yeah, we're gonna give you some Benadryl or whatever it was.

Yeah.

So he gave me like this big syringe of Sudafed and I slept the rest of the afternoon. Yeah, so that's how we found out I was allergic to heparin. Um, lucky me.

That's where you find out.

That's where you find out.

No test for it.

Um, so the, the— so you were doing it in blood. What were— with COVID going back to this, yeah, what were you seeing in 24 hours or a week? Like, so somebody, somebody has an active virus, they're sick.

Yeah, if, if I tell you, you won't believe me.

I'm trying.

If this goes on Amazon or— no, YouTube, YouTube, they'll like take us off or whatever because it's hard to believe. But I'll have— I had— I could tell you stories though. I guess one of the stories I'm thinking of is this morbidly obese woman with type 2 diabetes who 4 months before had a heart attack and some stents put in. Okay, uncontrolled diabetes, cardiovascular disease, morbidly obese, comes in She's got a respiratory rate of like 34. She's sitting there. She's turning blue. She's got an O2 sat of like 72. Not your best patient. No. Doesn't have a really good outlook. That patient is probably not going to last 24 hours in a regular hospital.

Yeah, because they intubate her and then give her redemptions.

And I'm thinking to myself, well, okay, if she dies, I'm probably getting in trouble, but whatever.

You might as well give it a shot.

Yeah. So. 3 days, 100%, see you later.

Came in for 3 days in a row. 3 days in a row she came.

I'm giving her some IM vitamin D, so it's not just that. I'm giving her oral vitamin C to take on the off day. But the bottom line is we're giving her fairly large doses of ozone, fairly large doses of vitamin C, all intravenously on 3 consecutive days.

Wow.

Knocked it out. It's a knockout punch.

Yeah, I mean, I— we talk about it quite a bit on this show. We— I look back at how we handled COVID and I want to puke. I just want to absolutely puke pretty bad. I mean, I sat at a dinner in Scottsdale. This was a year and a half ago, uh, probably about 20 people. It was kind of like one of these networking dinners, you know, kind of thing, um, that my friend put together. And he's like a really great networker. And there was a woman there, and she came up with the line for 6 feet of social distancing. She was a marketing person. And she tells the story about how she was in a room with Fauci and members of Congress and the US Chamber of Commerce. And the infectious disease people want 40 feet social distancing, and the US Chamber of Commerce is like, how about a foot? We need people out. And this is going back and forth and they're debating this. And she goes, let's make it 6 feet. And they go, why do you want to make it 6 feet? She goes, because everybody knows what 6 feet means because of Six Feet Under.

Huh.

It's in the Congressional Record. She's testified in Congress 12 times.

That's the science behind it.

That's the science behind social distancing. I don't remember her name, but you can look at this. That doesn't surprise me. Doesn't surprise me. So it was all— that whole response was all made up.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because they were like, how can we make money off of this? Rahm Emanuel, never let a good crisis go to waste. How are we going to make money off of this? By the way, both sides of that aisle. So I want to make sure we hit this. So if I'm listening to this, what specialties can benefit in the practice, in their patient base, by utilizing— you mentioned a couple— by having ozone?

Yeah, so particularly cardiologists. Or look, I'm not a cardiologist, but I treat cardiology patients. So any doctor out there that's treating patients with hypertension, congestive heart failure, coronary artery disease, post-stroke residual, history of strokes and TIAs, anybody that's treating that, and that's like your family doctor half the time.

Right.

But internists and such like that, Ozone oxygen therapies are going to put you right at the head of the line.

So, and obviously this is not covered by insurance. So if I'm listening to this and I'm an insurance-based doctor, but I'm looking for other modalities, what am I going to charge for something like this?

Yes. So it's going to depend on your market. I would say if you're in a big market, you're probably going to charge $500 per pop.

Okay.

A smaller market, $250 per pop.

Okay. And if you're listening to this, you're not a client of mine, then you call me and I'm going to show you how to charge more than that and treat more patients.

Yeah, exactly.

Frank has been a client and we have helped him, uh, but, uh, yeah, you know, there's always, there's always opportunity. But yeah, I mean, and are they usually just doing one, or are they usually— do you recommend they do a package?

You know, think of it as kind of exercise. Exercise trains your body to do something. Ozone, by moving these electrons around, is training your body to move the electrons on its own. Because the whole idea kind of is you give the— the patient comes in with the problem, You're giving them ozone oxygen therapy, they get over the problem, and now they don't need it anymore.

It's great.

That's kind of what we're going to. So, but it is typically very much a series, might be a 2-3 month series, for example.

Is your favorite to do the oxygen exchange? Is that your favorite way to do it between the blood, or is that your— if someone just—

I do that, I do it every which way. Okay. I got, like I said, I got all the equipment, I do all kinds of stuff. Uh, I'm very cognizant of of, uh, you know, patients' time and logistics and such like that. So, so some of, some of what we determine we're going to do is based upon how often can they get to the clinic, for example, how many hours can they spend at the clinic, and so forth and so on.

Have you done, uh, in the regen space with joint pain and things like that?

Oh yeah.

So I know you do a lot of it. Have you done any studies or anything like that?

Okay, so I'll tell you a story. I think I told you this story before.

Okay.

It's a great story. So I'm, I'm I developed a system to treat joint problems with ozone. So I'm treating this woman for rotator cuff injury, and she comes in with her hubby all the time. And so she's on like her third round, and on the way out, the hubby says, you know, she's doing so well, her shoulder's like totally normal. I wonder if you can help me. And I said, okay, what's your deal? He said, well, it's the back of my hand. Right here. He said, you know, about 10 years ago, I was wrenching something on a car. The wrench slipped and the back of my hand banged against a piece of metal, and it hurt like hell. And it still hurts. It's like 10 years later. And he said, I went and I saw the orthopedist. I got x-rays. I got this. I got that. Nobody knows what the heck's going on. But all I can tell you is it hurts like that every time I push a doorknob or do something of that nature. It hurts right there. Do you suppose you could help me? I said, dude, yeah, I think I can, because ozone literally gets rid of pain, even if it can't fix the problem.

It gets rid of pain.

So I don't know what your problem is, but I can tell you this much, I'll probably be able to get rid of your pain. So I took— pinched up a little bit of his skin. I took a 5cc syringe with ozone at a 45 gamma concentration, just with 30-gauge needle. slipped it underneath that skin, shot a little bleb. So he has a big old bleb of ozone oxygen on his skin. End of story. Pain went away for the rest of his life. Gone.

Wow.

That's it. That taught me something that I had always thought was the case, but I couldn't prove it. And the question is, what causes pain? So I called up a bunch of pain doctors and I said, what causes pain? That's your specialty. Tell me what causes pain. None of them knew. They don't know what causes pain. They just know ways to make pain less.

Right.

But they don't know what causes it. So I told them, I'm telling you right now what causes pain. It's lack of electron movement. Because if I put an electron movement mover in there, the pain goes away and often does not come back. That's what causes pain. And I might be the only guy in the world that knows this.

Well, it makes sense. I mean, like, I go to— I guess I'd call her an integrative chiropractic. My appointments are like an hour and a half because she'll do massage before she even makes any adjustment. And she cups. She does cupping, right? Which is bringing blood and oxygen into areas that are— my back is full of those red blotches, right? Yeah. I mean, that makes total sense. But yeah, I mean, if you think about it, it's bringing blood and oxygen into that area to help.

Yeah.

Loosen up that muscle.

It's kind of a no-brainer, but it's still marvelous.

It is.

You think that you get rib pain. I got a lady once that came in years ago. She had neck— she was complaining of neck pain. If you looked at her x-rays, it was like an erector set in there. It's God knows what the hell is in there. Just metal here and there and screws and all kinds of bolts and stuff. And obviously I cannot fix that person.

Right.

But we took her pain away and that was her problem.

So sore muscles—

The problem wasn't that she had metal in her neck. She's not complaining, oh, I got metal in my neck. She's complaining it hurts, right? Take the pain away. So all you doctors out there, if you're listening to this and you see patients with pain, guess what? You can take rid of that pain for pennies on the dollar. Real easy. Perfectly safe.

How do they find out more? Because I know you offer training on this and I'm going to give you all— I'm going to give a plug to what Frank does. I have been at his event. the big one in Orlando, which is now in Dallas, right?

It is in Dallas, yeah.

And I've been to your smaller trainings that you do here in Reno.

Yeah.

They're phenomenal. And a lot— like, I will tell you, in my, you know, my client base is 50% regional, 50% regional regenerative, 50% functional-ish naturopath, that kind of stuff. At least 85% of my clients, 80 to 85% of our functional medicine docs have been through your training.

That's awesome. Awesome. Yeah, good.

And they all know who— they all know, like, you are— I know there's other things, but how do you give them the domain? Like, when you have some training coming up, you've got videos, all of that, tell them how they can find out more.

Yeah, so, um, good. I'm glad you asked. Uh, first of all, there's the American Academy of Ozone Therapy. So we actually have an academy. We formed this, uh, what, 13 years ago?

Okay.

Uh, the academy has certification courses for veterinarians, dentists, and medical practitioners. We certify you, we teach you how to do this so that you do it properly because it's like anything else. If you don't get that dose right, that could be an issue.

Right.

So we teach you how to do ozone in all kinds of different ways. I take the medical end. Our president, Dr. Phil Mollica, takes the dental end, and Jim Bridge takes the veterinarian end. He's a veterinarian. And so all of those practitioners can get certified at the American Academy courses. And which is a really good thing for doctors to do, is to be certified by that event. And the way you learn about it is go to the American Academy of Ozone Therapy website. It's real easy to remember, AAOT, americanacademyozonetherapy.us.

Okay.

And you can go in there, you can learn all about— they got a whole library in there. You can, you can access 4,000 patients, 4,000+ patients on ozone oxygen, papers on ozone oxygen therapy. You can find doctors in your area if you want. You can learn a lot about the whole academy and the whole process and the meetings and all that kind of stuff. But you can also learn about all the certification courses. Our next one is going to be right here in Reno, and that's going to be what, like 4 or 5 weeks? And then we're going to do another one. We do them twice a year.

Okay.

Another one's going to be next June, right?

Yeah. You always do them like June, October, and then your big conference is May. And it's like, yeah, it's like the Thursday, Friday— yeah, it's Thursday, Friday, half day Saturday of Mother's Day weekend, right? So everybody can be back home for Mother's Day.

Exactly.

I can catch a flight home and be home for Mother's Day. Yeah, great event, by the way. Your trainings are fantastic. Um, I highly— I cannot recommend them enough. And I mean, I put your stuff up there with like the training that Don Buford does in the regenerative space, orthosono. It's been, you know, Donnie's been doing it 15 years or 20 years. He's been doing orthosono. It's really the gold standard and it's phenomenal training. I cannot recommend it enough. So get your, get your butt to Dallas or get your, get your butt to here in Reno.

Yeah.

And anything else you want to share? Anything else that's going on in your life here as we wrap this up?

I think we've covered quite a, quite a few things. Is there anything I want to put out there? Well, one thing, if we got a little time. Yeah. Let me just say this. Uh, this is just because it's fresh on my mind. You know, I re— I write a newsletter and it's called Second Opinion, and it goes to a bunch of doctors and such. And, um, so I'm always researching the internet and such.

Mm-hmm.

So I hear about this new drug, and I can't remember the name of the drug, but it, uh, the FDA just fast-tracked it. And, um, and it's supposed to be the new wonder breakthrough drug. Well, what it— what they did is they took, um, A number of patients that were being treated for metastatic pancreas cancer with chemo. These guys are all getting chemo, and they gave them this drug in addition to the chemo, and they lived twice as long. Well, what does that amount to? Because from the time of diagnosis on pancreatic cancer, you live 6 months, right? So they live 12 months.

Okay.

So it's twice as long. Sounds pretty good, I guess, except when you learn that it's $40,000 a month. month. And it also has a whole long list of side effects that almost everybody gets.

Right.

Other than that, it's great. It's okay. Gives you another 6 months. 5 years ago in the Journal of Cancer Research, in that journal, they published a study on the effect of alkalinization in the same category of people. So they took 20 patients with metastatic pancreas, pancreatic cancer. They were getting treated with chemo, and they gave those 20 baking soda to take orally. And what they printed out in the results, they printed it out. If you took enough baking soda, keep in mind, that's all. That's the only intervention. You're getting chemo. If you took enough baking soda to get your urine Above the pH of 7, you lived 4 times longer. Not twice longer. You lived 4 times longer.

I'm convinced all the answers—

It wasn't $40,000 a month. What is it, $40 a month? Yeah, there were no side effects. $40 a month, no side effects. It's just, it's a crazy thing.

It really is. I'll leave us with this. The longer I'm in this space and the longer I get to hang around really brilliant men and women like like you and other friends of ours. And I just, I just sit and listen. I got a marketing degree, right? I was a golf pro, right? Like, you know, my, my— I have 7 years of college, my grade point average is like a 2.6. You know, I was that guy in college that— and I, I just sit and listen, and I have to write down words that I don't know. But if I just listen through the lens of our body already knows how to heal ourselves, and all the answers already exist within the nature tools, the tools that we have here on Earth. The more I listen, the more I realize that's really true. I mean, our body can heal ourselves with our own cells, our own platelets, our own stem cells, our bodies. Now, you have to change those. You've got to spin them down. Oxygen, baking soda. I mean, we do a lot of work in the psychedelic space. We've sent 45 of our doctors to go. I did a journey 2 years ago. It's completely transformed my life.

Mm-hmm.

dealing with the trauma that I grew up with, and still to this day. And we've sent 45 of our doctors to go work with a guy, and it's all using plant medicine, and we're getting better results in one session than they would get from years of talk therapy.

Yeah.

Now, talk therapy's great too. You know, I do it, you know, I do it regularly. But boy, oh boy, there really does seem to be a lot of answers right at our fingertips that we try to We try to make things way more complicated.

Yeah.

So, Frank, thank you for being the pioneer. You really, like, you really, I know you look at Linus Pauling as being more of a pioneer, but you really have taken this to the mainstream. You've literally changed the lives of tens of thousands of doctors, and God knows how many patients. It's gotta be 5, 10, 20 million.

That's good, yeah.

Yeah, you should be really proud of your time, your work. And don't retire. Keep going. We need you. Okay. And good luck with the bike race. Will you let us know how you do?

Thank you. Okay. I'll let you know how that turns out. All right. Thank you.

You got it, Frank. Thanks for coming in. If this episode got you thinking differently, hit follow and share it with someone stuck in the system. Please leave a review. It helps us grow. Want more? Visit MavericksProfitSystem.com to schedule your free discovery call and explore how far your business can go.