When Her Employer Went Bankrupt, This OB/GYN Built Her Own Practice

I don't have daughters who, at this point, depending on where they live in the country, would not have access to reproductive healthcare that would be appropriate for them.

Yeah.

I don't have a daughter who lives in Alabama who wouldn't be able to get in vitro fertilization because that's shut down because we just can't figure our shit out. Other countries have, like Europe has actually developed guidelines and they've just figured it out.

But You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Cologli, and on Out of the System hosted by Dr. Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare entrepreneurs back. Hear from clinic owners, rebels, and builders who are creating bold, profitable, patient-centered practices and doing it their way. I am sitting here with Dr. Liz Lissner, who is an OB-GYN by training.

Yes.

And has gotten out of the insurance rat race. And we are in beautiful Reno and we're going to have a great conversation today. Can you—

you ready? We always do.

Are you going to be able to handle this today?

Of course.

Liz is feeling a smidge under the weather. We won't go into why because I'm not going to break the HIPAA.

Right.

But so we'll go as long as we can go. Okay.

Absolutely.

So I've— look, I've had people on this that— I had a guy that was dealing with the flu and—

Right.

Yeah, we had to have a trash bag next to him the entire time. We'd been trying for like months to get him on the show and he's like, I'm still doing it.

So yes, that's how I feel about it.

Yeah.

You deal with stubborn people, don't you? Doctors.

I deal with doctors. I deal with—

I know. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of orthopedic surgeons, a lot of pain management. And then the OB-GYNs. You all are a different breed.

That's true. That's true.

So now, were you, were you delivering babies? Were you doing the whole deal? Were you?

Absolutely.

You were doing the whole— how many babies do you think you delivered?

Oh, thousands. I have no clue, really. Yeah. And, but I do know when I delivered my last baby, it was just over 18 years. And in the state of California, where all my deliveries were, people have, that's the statute of limitations.

7 to 18 years lookback, right?

For deciding that I screwed it up.

Isn't that sick?

It is, yeah.

So you've been having to carry whatever, look, whatever it's called, lookback malpractice.

The tail, but it's been fine. I've been very fortunate with my liability insurance carrier. That's what we call it now. We don't, we've removed the word malpractice. Yeah. The liability insurance. So I got, I got really lucky when I stopped OB. I did not have to do a huge, very expensive transition down. They just did really just— I'm sure it wasn't a favor. I'm sure it was their calculations. But I was fortunate.

So what— now you come from a family of doctors, right?

I sure do.

Parents are both doctors?

Parents are both doctors.

So you could be anything you wanted growing up as long as it was a doctor?

Pretty much.

You got a brother and sister. Are they doctors?

I have one brother and he went into theater. God bless.

What happened? What did he get dropped on his head as a kid?

No, he just, he just didn't get the gene. I don't know. But now he's a therapist.

So— Well, that's kind of a natural way to go, by the way, for the people that don't make it in the theater and acting, they wind up being a therapist, right?

That's, that was his path. He's a great therapist. So that was good.

That's awesome. That's great.

Yeah.

So, but so—

There's a couple of architects, couple of dentists. I had a couple of choices.

Okay, well, you know, architecture's not what it used to be. And, you know, dentists, they make more money than all of us, so.

Well, this is Argentina, so different.

Okay, so were you born here in the States?

I was born in the States at the Mayo Clinic. My parents both went from Buenos Aires to the Mayo Clinic to train.

Ah, okay.

Yeah, so they were doing their residencies. My dad was a little ahead. He was a couple years ahead of my mom.

Oh, so you're one of those birthright citizens.

No, no, I was born in the U.S.

Yeah, when you're born in the U.S., it's called birthright.

Oh, that's true to my—

I'm joking. Yeah, I'm joking.

I know, I know. What does that mean? What have I lost? What rights have I lost, ladies?

No, you haven't lost any rights. So what birthright means is that it was put in place with the 13th and 14th Amendments. And what Lincoln wanted to do is he wanted to have— he didn't want to have a loophole that the South could come back and slave owners could say, well, they can't be citizens. We have to expel them because they weren't they weren't— they're not naturalized citizens. So what he put in place was that if you were born here, then you were a naturalized citizen. So it's one of those quirky things that came out of the whole Civil War that— I'm a big fan of the history of unintended consequences. You do something now, you think it's a really great thing, but you don't understand the consequences 20 and 30 years later.

So are we experiencing unintended consequences of the fact that our founding fathers all owned slaves?

I mean, not all did.

Okay, that's true.

Not all did.

Not all.

And many of them were progressive about it. Remember, Washington freed every single one of his slaves. And Washington was one of the first ever— he was the first to ever say, they're only going to work 6 days and we're going to feed them. And he gave really good medical care. So he was one of the— and Jefferson was very similar, except for he decided to sleep with his and have kids.

Yeah, a lot.

But he had— so, but you know, but so they weren't all, you know, a lot of them were pretty progressive in that thought process.

I'm a fan of How do I want to say this?

Bet you didn't think I was going to get that answer this morning, huh?

I didn't think we were going to talk about this. Neither did I. That's okay.

Yeah, well, we're here to talk about it.

But, you know, unintended consequences are very relevant to career path and choices that we make. Becoming a doctor, I actually wanted to be a nurse practitioner.

Okay.

Because my entire love of it was the educational part.

Ah, okay.

Okay, I was in college and I volunteered at the women's clinic It was called the Contraception, Gynecology, and Sexuality Services Clinic.

That's a freaking mouthful.

I know. CGSS. Who the hell came up with that? At Cornell. I have no idea.

Oh, you went to Cornell?

Yes. And this was ages ago. I got there in 1982 and the clinic was already established.

Wow.

Yeah.

Cornell's beautiful.

So it was very beautiful.

Dr. Lynn went there. Dr. Dwight Lynn, who's in our program, graduated from Cornell. We have quite a few doctors that have been.

Yeah, it was great. It was great. That was undergrad. Then back to Southern California for medical school.

Did you know at an early age that you were going to be a doctor? Or did you have— a lot of my clients would be like, oh, I knew at 14, or I knew at 12. Or was it just like—

Well, I loved the healthcare environment. I was what I now realize, a weirdo, because I enjoyed going to the hospital with my parents. It wasn't, they didn't do like bring your kid to work day. Like that wasn't a thing yet.

Oh, just stick a tube down his throat.

It must've been just a scheduling thing. Like I needed to be there for a couple of hours after school or something. And you know how most people don't like the smell of hospitals? I was fine with it. I was like, like the antiseptic, like it was okay.

Wow.

Yeah, I know.

That's really weird.

See, it was weird. I didn't know it was weird at the time. And I got to see—

Actually, I had a client one time said he loved the smell of formaldehyde. I'm like, what?

I know, see?

I'm like, seriously?

Something about—

I think his grandfather was a doctor, and he brought him to do, like, an autopsy or something like that at the age of 11. And he's like, as soon as he cut open the body, I was like in heaven. And the smell.

Right.

That's just weird. Anyway.

I know. But see, that's what I'm talking about.

Me, it was the smell of golf courses. Go ahead.

Right? That's a nicer smell. I will concede.

The smell of grass at sunset's pretty impressive.

I remember, this is a vivid memory in my mind as a kid. I don't know why I saw this, but somehow, maybe this was a school trip. Okay. 'Cause my elementary school was very close to where the hospital was located. Small town, Morgantown, West Virginia. Right. They moved from Minnesota to Morgantown. That's a whole, that's another story. My dad got—

West by God, Virginia.

A master's program at WVU. In Morgantown. But we were shown a slice of a lung of a nonsmoker and a slice of a lung of a smoker.

I saw that exact same thing as a kid.

And it was pink and black.

Yes.

And I was like, wow. It was like an early, early exposure to the fact that our choices impact our health. And it was really— that was really formative.

I saw the exact same thing.

It was really formative.

Yeah. It would be before 4th grade because I saw it at St. Raymond's Catholic grade school.

Yeah.

And I remember they brought it into whatever science class.

Yes.

And I remember seeing it.

Yeah.

And just being like, it was in a bag. So that must have been like some government program or something like that. We need to stop smoking. Jimmy Carter was hell-bent on making sure we didn't smoke anymore or something. Who knows? That is so wild. So you get done and you go into the traditional system, obviously. When did you graduate from— when did you finish up residency?

Okay, so let me back up to one moment in college when I'm doing all the pre-med, all the science, and I wanted to be a nurse practitioner. And my mom, the pediatrician, now retired, of course, says, Go be a doctor. I remember it being that casual. And I remember saying—

Just give up the next 7 years of your life.

Okay. Yeah. That one, that was not discussed. She started medical school when she was 16. And in Argentina, you just go straight through for, at that time it was only 6 years.

Yeah. So you come out, you're not giving up your 20s and your early 30s.

Exactly. That's exactly right. Okay. So then University of California, Irvine for medical school. And Los Angeles was my residency in East LA. And so I finished my residency in '94. '94.

Okay.

And that was intense, obviously. OB-GYN still at that time, the interns got to only do 24-hour shifts. The second, third, and fourth years, we all did 36-hour shifts.

Do you look back at those times and think how effed up that was? A little.

But I also look back and think those thoughts that people have, like the weakness of the youth and—

Well, let's talk about that.

How can they even learn how to manage labor when they're not even there for more than 24 hours? I mean, you know, those things like—

There is that. Like, I suffered, you have to suffer.

Yes, that's exactly it. That's exactly it.

It's the same way in the Catholic Church about the altar boys. So yeah, you look, they've molested you. So now they're gonna— they molested me. So they're gonna molest you. Yeah, that's pretty much how that works.

Oh my God. I was hoping that's not what you meant. But that's what you meant.

So yeah. No, that is what I meant.

Yeah.

I mean, just, you know, Father Mulcahy, he's gonna molest you in this passage. It's the rite of passage.

Yeah.

I worked for a guy.

All right. At least there's a purpose to learning how to manage labor. And you have to be there for more than 12 hours. Yeah.

Yeah, well, sometimes labor takes a long time. So exactly. I mean, would you? Okay, let's step aside from the fact that you've got Vietnam vet syndrome, and that's just what it is.

Okay, it's mild, thank goodness. Yeah, but yes.

Do you really think that's the best thing for training?

No, absolutely not.

Okay.

No, no, no, no. It's hazing.

It is hazing. It's hazing, and hazing sucks.

Hazing is bad.

Yeah, and plus, I mean, let's just after. Sleep deprivation of 24 hours, you're operating like a blood alcohol content of 0.08. That's what it shows. And here you are, you're delivering babies and making life-saving, changing decisions.

Yes. The idea was that there were people further along, for example, your senior resident or your attending who had gotten some sleep. That was the idea. That's how—

They get laid 2 hours.

That was the idea of not Killing people, but it was difficult.

So did you come out and start your own practice in OB-GYN?

Absolutely not. I took a J-O-B.

You took a J-O-B.

I took a job and it was awesome. It was the end of the heyday. So this is now, what did I say? '94. It was '94. And I go to work for Cigna, which I don't even— is it still around as an insurance company?

Yeah, they're still around.

Okay. Well, at that time they had hospital locations in Los Angeles. Wow.

Yes.

Now, They quickly discovered while in those first few years that I was there, they figured out that that model doesn't work because the office model is keep the patient out of the hospital, but the hospital income is based on put the patient in the hospital. So that existential internal conflict, I would say by the time I was done working there, they already had closed one of the hospital locations, something like that.

Well, yeah, 'cause they kept dropping reimbursement rates and they continue. about reimbursement rates. The reason why they don't want you staying in the hospital is because they don't pay as much as they used to. The only time that they paid money for a big— the last time was during COVID That's why they admitted so many people with COVID because they got bonuses. People don't realize this.

Seriously? It wasn't because the people actually needed to be in the hospital?

No, they did it. So there were, and it's why they were—

Oh, I try to be naive about this.

Yeah. And then the other thing is they, they coded a lot of people that they may have died, they may have had COVID, they may not have come in with COVID Right. And they died in the hospital, but they got COVID while they were in the hospital, and they would code it as a COVID death, which did skew the numbers.

Wow.

Because they got a bigger comp for the hospital bed.

That's mean.

They got bonus dollars and had huge profits.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'll say. There's always— this is what people don't understand. There's always a reason why things are the way they are. And it's always, 97% of the time, it's based on money. Always based on money. If you ever want to understand why things are the way they are, it's based on money. Especially in the medical field. I know.

Well, there I was delivering babies, and that seemed like a lot of money, But the malpractice insurance was a lot of money. The time and effort was a lot of money. The sleep deprivation. And I'm talking about once I was working. So my first job working for Cigna paid great and the schedule was great. I literally, we split 24-hour shifts.

So you just do 12 and 12?

Yeah. So this was great because I had met the person who I would marry and have my kids with, who's now my ex-husband. But we had met, we were together. So I finished '94, we got married in '96. So it was very helpful in terms of starting life.

Right.

Okay. But I mean, anybody looking at how the model was would see that it wasn't sustainable. And then one of my colleagues had a sign on his desk that said, I can't be fired. Slaves can only be sold.

Wow.

Okay? Now.

Wow.

Right. So, haha humor, right? Except then the entire company got sold. Now, at this point, And then not a lot changed for me. Just the name of the clinics.

Right.

They're like, we're not taking the hospitals.

Who signed your—

This practice.

Whoever signed it, that's what changed. Who signed the paychecks?

That was it. Yes. Yeah. It was called Friendly Hills. Friendly Hills. I know Friendly Hills Medical Group, Southern California sounds like a funeral home, but it was our medical group.

Probably was.

I don't know. I don't know.

They were like, look, let's just kill them off and get them into the funeral home. We can own the entire channel.

Motivated by money, right?

Yeah, motivated by money. Tell you what, let's just give a couple nursing doses. Let's increase the deaths.

So then it's a couple of years later and I go on a vacation and I come back and I say to one of my colleagues before I go back, I go, so what happened while I was gone? Did we get sold? She goes, yes. And I go, I was kidding. She goes, I'm not.

Wow.

And it was sold again to MedPartners. And then finally it got sold one more time. At this point, I'm looking for somewhere else to be that I hope will be more stable.

And what year is this?

We're now— let's see, I was 2000.

Okay.

I remember because I showed up for work. I had already lined up another job that I was just still in the process of confirming everything. And I'm pregnant with my second child. So I'm like 7 months pregnant. Like, I'm pregnant.

You're real pregnant.

And I get to the office. Luckily, my in-laws were visiting, so they needed my car. So they drive me to work and they drop me off. And there's a crowd in front of the door. I'm like, what in the world is going on? So I waddle to the front and the doors are locked because the company had declared bankruptcy and closed the doors. Yeah.

What about the people that were inside? Did they get out? I wonder what happened with the patients.

I'll tell you who was inside was the staff. Because first of all, I managed to somehow run, not fast, back to my in-laws that are driving my Mustang convertible, which was not a good turn radius. So they're having trouble leaving the parking lot.

Luckily— It's not a really good car to be able to tow kids around.

I know. We traded that car. It was very sad.

Great ride.

I know. It was great. One of my very few regrets in life. But they hadn't left. So I reached them to say, wait, you can't leave. I don't know what's going on. You have to wait. So they waited. And I managed to identify myself. These people are there for blood work. It's really early. And I see some of my patients. So I'm allowed into the building. I'm handed a box to get my things off of the desk. Yeah, it was crazy.

I know.

When you become a doctor, you do not expect to have that type of experience.

No.

Right? And then the nurses—

You work at Merrill Lynch, yeah, but not—

Right? The nurses are like, Here, here, Dr. Lister, here's some items. They're not gonna, like, we don't know what'll happen to it. They're not gonna let us use them for the patients, like IUDs, which at that time cost like $600.

And you weren't sure. Black market business.

Right, right. I literally ended up with just a couple of these types of items, obviously sterile package. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But I was able, like a friend of mine, I know she was done having her kids and I go, well, I have an IUD.

Oh my God.

I didn't have that mentality of like sell it to her.

Right, right, right.

Just take this to your doctor. So that was insane. And then the other job started, but things, things just kept changing very quickly.

So when did you have the realization that corporate medicine, hospital medicine was not going to be your bag? When did the light bulb start to— like, do you remember a moment? Do you remember a patient that where you were like, hey, wait a second. You're my 50th patient that I've seen today who's dealing with menopause, and I can't keep prescribing you Wellbutrin, or something like that.

I'll tell you what it was like. So while all these changes— so first of all, impression number one was, this is the best. Having a job is the best. And then it all just kept changing, changing, changing. Okay. So not long after this crazy story that I just told were colleagues that I had had from the very beginning. Some of them had formed their own group.

Okay.

And these were amazing people, smart as heck, and that I really respected. They were mentors to me. We were friends. It was just amazing.

Yeah.

So they had formed this group where I now was going to be an independent contractor. So this is the first—

First little switch.

Yes. Yes. From the employee.

Who might get to write off all this stuff? Hmm.

That's more advanced. I'm still a doctor brain at that point. Raised by 2 doctors. That didn't help from a money management standpoint. Like Rich Dad Poor Dad. My parents were the academics. You don't talk about money. They were 100% that That mindset. Okay. So I'm working for them and we are the supervising doctors and mostly midwives are doing the deliveries.

Okay.

And it was sometime during that time, I now have 2 little kids. I want us to move closer to where my mom lives. So we moved from LA to Orange County in Southern California. And at this point, have developed relationships with a couple of the midwives and they were very encouraging. Like, let's start a practice together.

Okay.

So I had a little bit of handholding and I just knew, and I worked part-time. Oh, this is relevant. From when my first son was born. So he's now 5. I worked part-time. So that changed things.

Right.

Right. So the transition to having my own practice, still billing insurance, But switching to having my own practice was somewhat natural.

Yeah, just kind of—

I had the support from an encouragement like, I can do this.

You can do this.

Yes. Now, it was very difficult from the very beginning, right? I delivered enough babies in a month to pay the liability insurance premium. Okay. Plus, I didn't have money skills. So it was really just like, oh, thank goodness these checks came in from the insurance company and now I can pay these bills. Yeah.

By the way, really typical. And for those of you that are listening or watching, like I tell doctors, there should be zero shame that you have about your lack of understanding of money or business. Like I, I grew up in a household where neither one of my parents taught me anything. Just was told that, how don't— why don't you know how to do that? Really odd. But, you know, there should be no shame that you didn't know these things. Right? Right. There's— I don't want anybody sitting there going like— I hope they hear what— I hope they hear your story and go, oh, I'm not alone.

Right?

Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because it's actually designed, by the way, It's designed in the system specifically to treat you like that.

Yeah.

All the programming is doctors are not any good with money, but doctors suck at business. Like, the programming is there and it's done specifically to keep you on the plantation because they don't want you to leave.

Right.

And so if you never learn about business and you never learn about money, you never learn about these things, you never realize how badly you're getting screwed. Same reason why they didn't educate slaves, because if they taught them to read and write, they could read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and read, all men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't anywhere in the Declaration of Independence say, except for Black people, right? Like, that doesn't exist in anything, right? So you have to understand, the people that run the medical industrial complex are no different than those Southern plantation owners. They are designed specifically— all they care about is their profits.

Yeah.

And all they care about is keeping you in the dark so that you keep doing the work and making them wealthy.

There's also the piece that everyone always says, oh, they should teach business classes in medical school. And so I spent a few decades thinking that thought, but I don't think that now.

Really? What do you think they should do?

Okay. So the reason I don't think it's correct is because we're too scared to not be learning the medical part.

Okay.

That would be the classes that students would skip.

Okay.

Like I'm—

What about nutrition? Should they teach nutrition in medical school?

Oh yeah. I got one week of that out of 4 years of medical school, but that's okay. Now we're talking about like the nature of illness.

I understand. I just wanted to— but okay, let's go back to business and medical school.

Teaching nutrition also isn't going to help from a business standpoint. But here's what I do think. Here's the talk that I would like to give that I plan on pursuing at some point. Like call my medical school and say, hey, you know, I could come give a talk. I mean, I'm assuming they wouldn't say no, right? If I don't charge them money, especially.

You just got to give them a check to speak. But anyway, it's your talk.

The talk would be more like, think about what you want as a through line. Think far down from an independence standpoint. That would resonate with students. I think about myself. So I started medical school. I was 21 when I started medical school. So in early 20s, especially with the conditioning I had already had with my parents who didn't know anything about business, it would not have connected. I think I would've thought to myself, well, that's not me. Those aren't my skill sets, that type of thing. But if you talked with me about independence and long-term goals, and this is what it looks like, these are the pros and cons of being an employee physician, because there are big—

Yeah. They're huge pros.

Huge pros, as long as you know them going in. And the bad things like the medical records and the charting, right? Everybody, that's one of the biggest reasons for burnout in that environment. There are solutions for those problems. And doctors, at least like if you're aware of that going in, you can look for an employee situation where there are scribes. There's solutions for these things. And then there's the downside. I don't have— I mean, I would say I have an entrepreneurial spirit, but I certainly still wouldn't call myself an entrepreneur even though I actually am now because just by definition.

Right.

But that's not my motivation. My motivation is teaching and helping people feel better, period. So while it's difficult and I've had to learn a lot and I'm learning faster now in your program, but these are things I've been working on for 20 years from a money mindset kind of thing. It's still— I'm very clear how much freedom I have.

Yeah.

Right. So every time I complain to myself, every time I feel sorry for myself, every time I think, are you serious? Like, Like, I'm right now, this far into the process, still figuring out exactly how much money I make.

Yeah.

I can look at a ledger.

Right.

But like, to say exactly where it's going. So I've been doing a lot of work on that, I'd say in the last 2 years.

Good for you.

But like I said, every time I feel sorry for myself, which is not rare, I think, 'cause I get offers every day. Right. There's a shortage of doctors.

Right. Oh, I bet.

I literally hear from recruiters.

Especially in OB-GYNs.

I hear from recruiters an average of every day.

Oh, and the demand for OB-GYNs is like through the roof.

Correct. And the money just keeps increasing. We'll pay you this much and we'll move you here and we'll pay you a bonus. And I'm like, what am I doing with all this difficulty of running my own practice? And then I remember what I'm doing, which is I control my schedule.

You control your—

Which is priceless.

And you control your care.

That's absolutely true.

Right? Because you don't control your care in the insurance space.

That is correct. When I first started, I really did.

Yes, you did. I know you did.

Yes. In 1995.

Look, I might've gotten in the medical field in 2014, but I spent a lot of time going through the past, right? Like in talking. And yeah, I mean, you used to be able to make— you used to make the decisions.

I did. I really did. Everything was covered.

Everything.

My biggest problem was a patient who lost their insurance. Then I couldn't help them.

Isn't that funny?

I know.

It was like, how hard is it?

Now you can help those more. Absolutely.

People don't realize that. You can help them more.

I know. And spending the time with people, that's also priceless.

Going back to this, whether or not you should have business classes, I would agree with you. I wouldn't have Business 101 in medical school. No, no, for sure. So there's a school in High Point, North Carolina. It's called High Point University. And my daughter, Megan, who's now 31, so this was whatever, 12, 13 years ago, very smart young lady. We went and looked at it and High Point was known for being very different. And the reason why it was this old university that had no endowment and this guy who immigrated to the country, who was a very famous public speaker and writer, he became His name is Nido Qubein. And so Nido basically saw that the school was failing and he said, I can be president. So he became president of the university. And what he did was he basically took this ramshackle university with dilapidated buildings and he turned it into a 4-year motivational, how to make your life better and make a positive impact university.

Wow.

Right? So instead of like, you know, classes on Chaucer, which I had to take at Ferris State.

Right.

Why don't— why am I— I'm a freaking golf pro. Why am I reading Chaucer? Right. You know, whatever, early British language, whatever, whatever. Right. Literature. And so like the first class that you have your first semester, every Tuesday you go to a class in the amphitheater, in the auditorium with every freshman, and Nito takes you through 10 weeks of basically How to set goals and how to have an amazing life.

Wow. Okay, that's amazing.

They give you classes on how to manage money, how to invest money, right? These are all the requirements. You have classes on like how to host a business dinner, right? They have a restaurant there and you—

Oh my goodness, you get to practice.

You get to practice like how do you buy a suit, how do you buy professional clothing, how do you How do you make sure? How do you shine shoes? All these things, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And what I— so I agree with you. If we had a class of Business 101 in medical school, somebody would get the test online, they'd figure out an AI bot, and they would all cheat their way through. Right.

Exactly.

But what if we took an approach— I like your approach of saying, let's talk about what your real options are. Let's talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly about each one of them.

Yes.

Because there are good, bad, and ugly.

Correct.

You know, let's be honest, you and I could both be— if I— following a calling is— it can become profitable, but the road is longer.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Like I always tell everybody, if I was doing what I do in another niche, our business would be doing $10 million a year. Right. Because you can sell it differently. Like with doctors.

Yes.

With doctors, I have to sell the whole customer journey, the way that we build the process.

Yes.

Now, the good news is, is that creates a barrier of entry to other competitors because I know my competitors and I know where they struggle, right?

Yes.

But like, you have to be much more patient in this place, in this market versus like working with whatever, biz startups, right?

Yes. Because the math is different.

The math is vastly different.

Yes.

And yes. The risk is different for you all.

Yes.

And so I agree with you. Like, instead of saying how to manage your checkbook, I think there should be some basic life skills. Because when that happens, doctors become informed. Now, the challenge with that is too many medical schools are underwritten by the system. Chairs are paid for by pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies. So there's— I don't want to use the word bribes. That's not— there's influence.

Right. We can just say influence. Yeah, we'll call it influence. Yeah, subsidies. Well, that's encouraging to me because UCI also has an Integrative Wellness Institute that was started a long time ago by Susan Samuele.

Really? I didn't know that UCI had that.

Yes.

And that's University of California, Irvine, right?

Correct.

For those of you at home that want to know what UCI is.

Yes. And I know her because her husband also has— her husband invented broadband.

Nice.

Yeah, right? And so he's from UCLA. He has the School of Engineering at UCLA is named after him.

Oh, well, yeah, he's a big deal.

Yeah, he's a big shot. And they're great. They're great people. Obviously, she cares about integrative health and solutions. And she was talking about acupuncture and nutrition.

Oh my God.

Like 30 years ago. So she's been on, on the forefront of that. So, so when did you—

so I talked to a lot of OB-GYNs and I'll never forget this. I'm at Don Buford's OrthoSono and he has a speaker dinner. I speak every— he does it twice a year. And I, I, you know, I'm one of the speakers and I happen to be in town for that. He's like, you're going to be for the speaker dinner? I'm like, yeah, I can be in town for this. So we go and we're hanging out at the bar and, you know, there with Christine and a bunch of, you know, like literally like 70% of the faculty staff is like, has been a client or a current client of mine. Right. So, you know, talking to Roddy McGee and Steve Darrington, and I'm talking to one of the doctors who's, he's in the hospital system making $750,000 a year.

Mm-hmm.

And he's getting ready to leave. scared out of his mind. And his wife is OBG.

Okay.

And I'm talking to her and she's peppering me with questions, right? Like, can he really do this? And blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, is this really a good move? You know? And I said, well, we have this conversation and she's kind of opening up and I'm going, and you know what I said? And if you ever decide to leave, you have a built-in in mechanism to build a multimillion-dollar business because you're OB-GYN and all of your patients have menopause. And I could barely finish the sentence. And she said, absolutely not. I am not going to be prescribing HRT. You should see the number of patients that come into my office and they're bleeding and they've got polyps and they've gone on the verge of getting cancer because of estrogen. And I mean, she just goes Wow. Now, in my youth, I would have argued with her. In my wisdom, I go, okay, so maybe that's not an option for you. But you're different. Like, most OB-GYNs I talk to think that hormone replacement therapy for women is a death knell. That menopause is just something you're supposed to fucking suffer with.

Right. And live a third of your life in—

Right. When did the light bulb go on for you? Because you clearly are past the menopause stage.

Yes.

You are By the way, the name of her podcast is Hotness. So that'll tell you pretty much everything you need to know about Liz. Okay?

Yes, that's true.

Right?

That's absolutely true. She's not—

she's a little reserved today 'cause she's not feeling all that well. And I'm just letting you know, like, like there's, there's like a whole fricking layer underneath the artichoke.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Okay.

Like the iceberg.

Yeah.

Okay.

I call it the artichoke. You just got prickly.

Okay. All right. That's absolutely true. Okay. Wait, where was the—

So how did the light bulb go off? Okay.

Well, I'll tell you.

Liz, all your other OB-GYNs are like, this is evil. They're all gonna die.

Yes. I call that the dark, the long dark night Nice. ...shadow of the Women's Health Initiative study.

Yeah.

That started putting out results in 2003, roughly. And I was very fortunate. A few things lined up for me. I had already been going to talks at, like, you know, the hospital lunch lectures, that type of thing. And I had seen original data done in animal studies in the difference between progesterone and progestin.

Okay.

So I already had been exposed to that, and that definitely was not—

Right.

I mean, this was like a lunch and learn.

Explain to the listeners why that designation is important. It's critically important. It's critically important, but explain it, please.

So women's ovaries don't make progestins, they make progesterone.

Okay.

Which now we use the word bioidentical, and that's the key word. And I will always remember when that word first came out. I think it was popularized by Suzanne Somers.

And doctors at that time were very—

Remember the Wiley Clinic? Oh gosh, absolutely. Absolutely. Wiley, who's not a doctor, she's just someone who was trying to help women feel regulated. Right. I don't do that protocol for the simple reason that it's complicated.

It's very complicated. We did it for men in the ED clinics.

Oh, that's so interesting.

I was on it. Yeah, it was really complicated.

Yeah, it's just— I'm all about simple solutions.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't need to be changing my dosing every other day.

Right?

Like, I don't, I don't follow the moon. I follow the sun. I'm the same fucking thing every day.

That's exactly right. Then there's women. We're different.

Women, you guys are like the moon and the tide.

You got all this shit going on. We are in fact different.

You never know when you're up.

Like, it's just— you never know. You never— we do change every day. It is frightening, actually.

We do change every day. Like, you know, and yeah, like, that's how I— that's the— and we did this on your podcast. That's the simplest way to explain men versus women.

Yes.

Men are the sun. We're up at the same time every day, like a minute plus or minus 30 seconds. We set at the same time every day. We're in the same fucking spot every day. You want to know where we are at noon? We're right there. Women are like, Oh, we're gonna be rising at 12 in the afternoon. That's when the moon's gonna come up and we're gonna be in our waxing phase. And it's like, men are like, I don't understand. I can't figure this out. I just want a pizza. You know, it's like, it's the most— and men are like trying to make—

We won't generalize or anything.

It's like men are always trying to make you the sun. I'm like, they're the moon. There is a cycle. Put it on your phone. Figure it out. You'll be much happier.

I heard that once also for women to put on the fridge calendar.

Yeah, but men would ignore it. No, I, I know, I know Christine's cycle. Like, I'm like, you're gonna get your period in 2 days. She's like, no, I'm not. Like, yeah, you are. Like, I know it better than she's like, you're right. Like, I've learned. I'm— you're my third, you know, I've been married and divorced twice. Like, let's figure this shit out, man. Right.

It— see, it can be figured out. It can be figured out. I am an optimist.

Not all men are stubborn.

I am. That's right.

Most men are stubborn and most men give up at 55. I'm like, no, let's make this better.

Oh no, that's time to start.

Yeah, no, it's time to start. Okay.

Okay.

So you're talking about synthetic progestin. Correct. Progesterone, natural bioidentical.

That is correct.

That's the differentiation.

So the Women's Health Initiative study did 3 things wrong, and I'd have to put more thought into why I knew that right at the time. What I do remember is the press release coming out and me thinking to myself, wait a minute, where was the study? Well, that's because the study hadn't been published yet.

So they put a press release out on the results without the study being—

Correct. That's exactly what they did. Okay.

Why?

Why do you think? Okay. A lot of things.

Oh, no, no, no. We're going to— if you give me a decision, you're going to get—

I'm sure it comes back to money.

You give me a decision, we're going to be— yeah.

Okay. Even though I have my master's in public health that I got at UCLA because I thought I wanted to get back to more of the teaching. And then I ended up— I now am what they call an MD MPH. So I don't even use the MPH because an MD MPH is a specific animal. They run health departments. They run community health clinic systems, vaccination programs, all sorts of things that I would have to shoot myself if you made me do those things. So unfortunately, I went into the program because I wanted to do more teaching. So it was this focus in community health education, and it was super fun. I loved all the learning. It was amazing. But then at the end, I'm like, uh-oh, I'm an MD-MPH. And so I made the choice.

Right. Right, right.

I don't even put the MPH on very many things. Okay. All right. Where were we? We were saying—

So we're talking about the symptoms.

The hormones and the long shadow of the WHI. So somehow I knew very quickly that this wasn't right.

So you knew intuitively?

I did. I was— this is the story I tell. So I was trying to sell a house at that time. We were trying to sell the house we lived in. And our realtor comes walking in. It's right after this has all happened. Like the press release was like literally a month earlier. She comes walking in, she's beet red. She's dripping with sweat. And she can barely make it over to my couch. And she plops, like she just drops into the couch. And of course, I looked at her and I knew what happened. I knew—

It was a hot flash.

At this point I'm in— was I 40 yet? I don't know if I was quite 40 yet. But I knew she was like 50-ish. And so I knew. And so I said, what happened? Oh, I got taken off my hormones. I'm like, yeah, okay. So I knew right away that it just wasn't going to be the full story. So I knew that. Then, so what we now know, super clear, no questions, wrong hormones, wrong women studied, and wrong route of administration of the hormones.

Mm-hmm.

So the women, if you're going to do a placebo-controlled study, you can't have women having menopausal symptoms. So these women were in their 60s and sometimes even older, but average age in their 60s. So these are women who had been off of hormones For at least a decade, no longer having hot flashes. I don't know how they were feeling, but they weren't having the obvious things that clear up very quickly when you give them hormones. So that's number one. So we know more about that, right? Like inflammation sets in, the bones start to disintegrate, all sorts of bad things are happening in that 10, 15 years off of the hormones. So those are the wrong women. The wrong hormones included the estrogen, which was Premarin, which is from pregnant mare's urine. Right.

Which is synthetic. Right.

So that's why I don't use the word natural. I use the word bioidentical or not bioidentical. Because I mean, pee from a horse, that's natural. Okay. But it's not what women's ovaries make.

Right.

Okay. So—

Natural to a horse. It's not natural to me.

Natural to a horse. So non-bioidentical estrogen and a progestin, not progesterone. So wrong women, wrong hormones, wrong route of administration. We now know, it's very clear, it's in the cardiology literature, it's in all kinds of literature, that oral estrogen does what we call the first pass. You swallow it. Everything that goes into our stomach, we absorb it, goes first to the liver.

Yeah.

The absorption, just the way the blood flows, to the liver first. So oral estrogen stimulates the production in the liver of the blood clotting factors. So increasing the risk of heart attack, stroke, blood clots. Lots of ways to avoid that. So now we know that transdermal estrogen is going to really— you're not going to have that first-pass effect.

Right.

So you're not increasing the risk over placebo. It's never zero. And it's also not— I also People spend a lot of time talking about absolute risk versus relative risk. Right? Absolute risk of crossing the street, at one point I looked this up, of getting hit by a car when you cross the street is 1 out of, let's say, 5,000.

What if you were having your phone and you're texting?

Right?

It's gotta be like 1 out of 1,000.

Probably. But if you cross the street twice, you just doubled your risk.

Okay.

So that's relative risk. But the absolute risk is still small. Even with your cell phone in your hand, it's still only 2 out of 1,000.

Right.

Okay, but it's double. So that's another thing that the— what the WHI press release did, that increased breast cancer risk by 37%, something like that. But when you looked at the numbers, that was 4 additional women out of 10,000 women. So it was 9 in the placebo group and 13 in the hormone group.

Now, check this out. So they're making a huge stink about 4 out of 10,000 having adverse effects.

Yep.

Now, I'm not disregarding those 4 out of 10,000. Statistically, it's relatively irrelevant.

Yes.

And yet we will push medications that we know do not work, and I'm not going to mention them, that have higher risk factors, and we'll say that they are life-changing. And the difference is, is that they have immunity because you can't sue the pharmaceutical companies for harm. They have— remember, most people don't realize this, the Reagan administration, and this was argued by the lobbyists of the pharmaceutical companies. And they said, well, creation of vaccines is inherently— what was the phrase they used? Because it's actually in the law. I won't get it right, but it's— It's a defense. it's inherently risky or it's inherently damaging, right?

Okay.

And they basically got Congress to write that into the bill, that because the creating of vaccines and medications is inherently risky and can cause harm to humans, we need absolute immunity. Most people don't realize you can't sue Pfizer, Moderna, all— we can't go and sue them for COVID vaccine harm or You know, any of it, like any of the harm, they have absolute immunity. So which is just amazing to me.

I know. Now, remember, I just mentioned that I have a master's in public health. And so I believe in public health.

Yes, I do too.

The public trust, at least in our country, is probably at an all-time low.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's— there's a lot of unfortunate things that have gone into that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's one of of 1,000, right? Yeah. And I agree. I mean, the trust in our government since COVID Yeah. And you have to think at the same time COVID came, when COVID hit and we're all locked down, was it Netflix Sackler came out at the same time? Because we're all freaking, what are we going to do? We're going to eat, we're going to make more food and get fat, and then we're going to watch more stuff on Netflix. And that was the other thing that hit. And you had kind of And that had Michael Keaton in it, I think. It was really well done. It was beautifully well done.

Dopesick.

Dopesick. It was amazing.

I haven't watched it. I'm too impressionable. I just wouldn't sleep for weeks if I watched that.

Yeah, I didn't sleep for weeks.

I know what happened.

It made me really angry.

Exactly.

But my point is that, yeah, I mean, you have all these things that converged at the same time. It's really unfortunate.

Very.

But it also, I think, it also brought to light, I think, I guess I'm going to speak more from my viewpoint. It brought to light a lot of the troubling processes of how things are approved and how Very similar. The sausage is made.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

Thank you, Upton Sinclair.

Yes.

Yeah. So any thoughts on that?

Well, again, it's difficult because it's true that there's inherent risk. I have to retain some degree of Belief in the goodwill of at least some of the people in the process.

Yes.

For example, my favorite example is in controlling the safety of medications. There's a lot of people who care in all the FDA structure. It's when you get to the very top that you're talking about political appointees and you're talking about their friends. They bring in their friends. So the very top is really problematic. But when you look, obviously nothing's perfect and people aren't perfect, but in the structure you just have a lot of people who care about the safety of these medications. And then you also have a lack of the ability to be nimble. Okay. So for example—

The government is not quick.

Not at all. Not at all. And I, of course, as most people who know me know that I don't like the current administration. My voting is based— almost the single only thing that I vote based on is reproductive rights for women, reproductive health for women. So that makes it very simple for me. But I understand other points of view.

Mm-hmm.

But other than that, this administration is is bringing in changes that will benefit my patients, that are already benefiting women in menopause, women using estrogen, taking the black box warning off of 7 different estrogen products.

Is that a conflict for you? Were you almost like, fuck, that's actually a good thing. No.

You know what? It is, of course it's a good thing. I'm not going to—

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Okay. It sure does. But so I'm talking about me and my patient base at this time. I don't have daughters who, at this point, depending on where they live in the country, would not have access to reproductive healthcare that would be appropriate for them.

Yeah.

I don't have a daughter who lives in Alabama who wouldn't be able to get in vitro fertilization because that's shut down because we just can't figure our shit out. Because other countries have, like Europe has actually developed guidelines and they've just figured it out. but we just keep staying stuck. Okay, so this is one of those moments where I'm digressing, digressing.

No, look, this is a really important conversation. I mean, and I will just say this, federally, what most people don't understand is why those states have the kind of rights that they have. Because without it, we never would've created the United States of America because New York is like, fuck you, we're gonna go out and create our own country. We're gonna be like Europe.

Right? California, Texas.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, but again, there's a Yes. America has a different set. We have a different, we have a different root basis.

We sure do. Puritan.

Versus Puritan, like the freedom thing. Like, no, yeah, Pennsylvania is gonna be for, you know, this type of sect, and Rhode Island's gonna be for this type of sect. And that's how it originally was started, right? Georgia was a penal colony. You know, most people don't realize these things, right? I'm like a big-time American historian. So like, I studied this shit. I'm like a nerd.

Yeah, I like to read Heather Cox Richardson's daily column. It really is—

I'm not familiar with her.

She is great. She's a history professor.

Okay.

She's a professor of American history. And she's very funny. I've heard her interviewed. And she says, at one point she goes, someone said, are you an expert on absolutely everything related to US history? She goes, well, I can't say that I could really speak very articulately about the history of opera in the United States. But everything else. Everything else.

Right?

So every day she writes a column. Some days it's talking about what's happening currently. Other days it's talking about what's happened historically if it happens to be a particular holiday. But oftentimes she will bring it back. There have been similar times to now in our past. And that is reassuring to me.

Yeah.

So when you say it's a conflict of interest to me, everything's always going to bring different results. You just— unintended consequences.

The unintended consequences. Yeah, it happens all the time.

Right? So I'm okay with that. But what I don't like, so for example, and this was, I was thinking of this when we were talking about that the government is not nimble. So the current Secretary of Health, I don't like him. I think that role should be held by someone with actual medical background.

So you weren't a fan then of Becerra who was in the Biden administration, who was an attorney general? in California.

I wasn't paying attention at that time.

Okay.

I'm just teasing. I'll just tell you why.

Thank you for being honest.

Yes, absolutely.

Because that's always— people are like, well, Kennedy has no health experience. I'm like, neither did Becerra, and he was during COVID So what are we going to do? If that's how you pronounce his last name. It's a question. It's not an indictment.

Right.

Yeah, right.

But what's happened now is— I forget which group of advisors. The number that sticks in my mind is 17 people on some type of advisory committee. And he, the current RFK Jr., cleared out all of them. I would have been happy if he'd cleared out half of them. If we want to have an actual conversation, but I don't think people actually do want to have the conversation.

Yeah, I think people are uncomfortable having that conversation.

Absolutely. It is uncomfortable. That's fine. But we have to learn to deal with that. I expect my leaders to be able to deal with that. To not be children who can't. Well, that's a tall ask.

That hasn't happened in a long time.

But that's my definition of growing up is learning to tolerate discomfort. It's one of my definitions of maturing in a good way.

Well, it's almost like we've gotten to a place societally, not just politically.

Correct.

We've gotten to a place societally that there's more power in the ego of being right than in the willingness to hear a different point of view.

Correct. I blame algorithms.

I do too. I blame algorithms big time. Yeah, because, you know, I get asked a lot. People try to guess where I am politically.

Okay.

And a lot of people, I think, assume because I'm 58 and white, and I am— I do tell people that Jesus is my homeboy. Jesus is my homeboy. I don't like to call myself a Christian because I think that's very narrowing and people already have a predisposed disposition about it.

Right.

But if you were to look at my feed, there's a lot of quantum physics and a lot of, you know, are we alone kind of thing.

Yes.

And people are always trying to guess where I stand on stuff.

Okay.

And what I've learned, a couple of things. One, if I take positions, I lose the opportunity for spirited discourse. Right. And the second thing is, I'm here to serve all doctors, not just Republicans, not just Democrats, and to free 100,000. It can't be about my political views. Do I have political views? Absolutely. I have political views. I have political views on a lot of things.

Yeah.

But my job is very simple, to use my voice to free 100,000 doctors out of insurance-based care worldwide. Now, I have opinions about this administration. I have opinions about every administration.

Right, exactly. Okay.

I have opinions about—

Which is great. Those are my favorite conversations.

Yes, I have. And if I start with the basic premise that there's no clean hands on either side of the aisle, it pretty much lowers the— like, if we just assume that I would tell you, let's just say 90% of politicians in Washington, D.C. are there to enrich themselves at the expense of the citizenry.

I know.

It's— Then it changes the conversation, right?

You have to keep some degree of optimism. Otherwise, I just—

Well, I have optimism. I have optimism that they will— let's look, you can keep the term— look, here's my deal that I want.

All right.

You can keep the insider trading. Just give us term limits.

Okay. All right.

I'll get— you can do— you're blatantly insider trading. Like, if I did this on my own, I'd go to freaking jail for 20 years.

Right? Right.

You can keep the insider trading. Right? Right. Like the Nancy Pelosi stock tracker is like one of the greatest things that you can invest in.

Right?

You get it through autopilot. You can tie your investments to what she does and she gets like an annualized 43% return. Like, how does that happen? Okay. Keep it, just give me term limits. That's like the most out there I'll get there with my political views.

All right. All right.

Which that is not, you know, that's probably, I don't know what that is. Maybe that's the libertarian belief system.

So I know now if there were people with honorable, good motives, then term limits are a problem.

Not necessarily, because you can be a congressperson, you can be a senator.

I'm just saying in terms of learning how do the job. In other words, I'm not saying people should be there for a life. We don't want a lifetime appointment. That we don't want. We don't want lifetime appointments in anything. But maybe. Yeah, I know. See?

Yeah, maybe. I mean, it's not a— again, see, I always— I'm a historian. I always go back to how did things become the way that they are? Not to say that that's how they should be. But why did they become the way that they are? Sure. I can see the value in the— I can see the value in the argument, and I can see the holes in the argument. Right?

Absolutely.

Like, can I see the value in the argument with regards to someone like a Fauci? Do I think that he served too long and he had too much control? Probably. I think maybe he got a little full of himself at the end, and he made a lot of fucking money. Okay. I mean, he made a shit ton of money insider trading on that stuff. By the way, so did all of Congress.

Exactly.

Right? Like, I'm not— it's not just to him. Right?

Right.

To Supreme Court justices? I don't know. You know, like—

I think that is so crazy. I mean, they're supposed to not be political. They're so political.

Oh, they're so political.

I just cringe.

So political.

I just cringe.

Yeah. I mean, but they should have oversight on the Like who they can pay for their vacations, right?

Yeah.

Like, there should be more oversight on that.

Yeah, simple, simple things.

Yeah, like if you're gonna say that you—

But they don't want to because then it would apply to them as well.

Right, well, of course.

I do a lot of Kabbalah study and that's one of the major principles is—

Oh, what's that?

If you're going to— it's so great, my Kabbalah teacher has little kids and he talks, like one of his kids said, came to him and said, that's not fair, my brother got more of an allowance or something like that. And he goes, okay, so let's talk about fair. Your room is bigger than your brother's room. So if you want everything to be fair, then you are going to have to take turns with your brother having your larger bedroom. Is that okay with you?

The answer to that's no.

And the answer was absolutely not.

I know what that answer is going to be.

That's how it goes. So for example, he brings it all the way down to the level of how automatically we judge other people. And we have to be really careful because we are inviting from a, you know, he doesn't use the word karma, but I'm just saying that from an energetic standpoint, if I'm criticizing someone, I better be prepared to be pristine in whatever area I'm criticizing them in.

Yeah.

If I'm criticizing how they deal with money, I better make sure that I'm 100%, which is hard to do. So my best bet is just don't critique that person. Just continue doing my best to learn and grow. So yeah, but that's not the motivation in politics.

Well, it's not the motivation in life.

People who want the power aren't the ones who should be there ideally.

It's a big ego stroke.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. Can you imagine Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States. I mean, can you imagine?

No, it's like the last job I would ever want.

Oh, it's the last job I'd want. Well, I wouldn't say it's the last job. I think—

no, I've heard—

I think being a garbage man might be the last job I'd want.

No, garbage men are great. They get to see amazing things that people throw away. Absolutely.

I would— yeah, I've— I would, uh, I would run for governor or president.

No, I would not. No, too much trouble. Well, one, I have 2 children. That's hard enough. Well, let me That was hard to do.

You don't have to worry about me doing it because I got a lot of skeletons, right? But if I did—

Oh, that's going to change because going forward, all the— from now going forward, everybody's going to get to a point where 100% of people running for office have been kids and teenagers and young adults in the age of cell phones.

Yeah. So what I mean is—

So the skeleton thing's going to change.

If I were to run, Which is, you know, it's the, the best person doesn't win, right? It's, it's about the PACs and all of that.

Correct.

Which is how they all enrich themselves. But if I were to run, I'd hold a press conference and go, all right, let me introduce you to all the women I slept with. Here's their numbers. Let me tell you about the affairs I've had. I'm gonna tell you exactly how I was a horrible husband and all the mistakes I made as a father. Here's my bankruptcy file. Here's it all. Here you go. Here's the people that you know I lost their money in the investments, like when I when the real estate market crashed. Like I'm just gonna be like, here it is. Okay, any questions? I contend to this day if Bill if Bill Clinton was asked, did you have sex with that? Did you have sex with Miss Lewinsky? Instead of him saying, I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. If he would have said, yeah, I fucked her, right? And I did it on the couch, and Hillary and I have not been having a good time. And yeah, I did. it. I think everybody would've gone, all right. Like literally, they'd be like, what's for dinner? Like, what's the ballgame tonight? I know.

His problem was— I think they would do that now for sure. At that time, I'm not so sure, but now I totally get it.

Seriously, you don't think that Bill could have gotten up there with as charismatic as he was and said, oh hell, Hillary and I have been struggling? No.

I heard him speak and it's really a tragedy that he will be remembered for that.

He was a great president.

Rather than—

He was an amazing president.

Incredible work.

Amazing warrior.

The work that he's done since then is absolutely incredible.

He's a scumbag, but yeah, I mean, he's got some— look, he's got—

Again, that's what we're saying.

That's the whole point. He's imperfect.

Totally.

And we expect our politicians to be perfect. He's an imperfect man.

Expect our sports heroes to be perfect.

I'd take Bill today. Wouldn't you take Bill in the White House today?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

I would take Bill in the White House in a heartbeat. I think he was the last one that was able to get deals done on both sides of the fence. That's not to say this one or this one wasn't a good president in the context of their time or what they had to deal with, because I do think you have to look at content and context. But I would take him today because he knew how to be like, well, part of what I want is better than not getting any of it. And that's what we've lost. And I think that's—

Calcified is the word that's being used for the politics.

Oh, that's a great word. It is calcified. People's opinions and beliefs are calcified.

And the margins of elections everywhere at every level are so tiny. I live in Nevada and I love it here because I'm in Reno. Reno's very purple. Vegas is purple, maybe even towards blue because of all the casino unions.

Mm-hmm.

But the state overall is red. We have a Republican governor and 2 Democratic senators.

That's the perfect model.

I— and you can have conversations here.

I live in California and it's a monolithic—

You cannot even have conversations with people. But I will tell you that one of our 2 state senators, not senators to Washington, it took almost a week to certify her election a couple of years ago.

And she won by like, what, 40,000 votes or 10,000 votes?

Yes, it was definitely a small margin and it took It took that long to establish it. And that is how a lot, I don't know about most, but a lot of elections are just that narrow. And that's just from people not receiving information on both sides. And the only thing—

And their algorithms feed them what they want to hear. So it confirms, it's confirmation bias at its worst.

Yeah.

Yes. When I think of landslides, so this last election when Trump won reelection, Um, and people are like, it was a landslide. I'm like, it was not a landslide. It was not a landslide by any stretch of the imagination. Because the last— I remember Reagan, when Reagan beat Jimmy Carter, that was a landslide. Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, that was, that was over, that was over before the polls closed in the West Coast. They call— people don't realize this, the polls closed at 7, right, on the East Coast. By 8 o'clock on the East Coast, half of the country still hadn't voted. Like, they were still running.

Right.

And they were like, Ronald Reagan is going to win in a landslide. Which what that did is it changed all the elections. And that's— and won in a landslide. They took over the House of— the House of Representatives for the first time in whatever, 40 years. I remember this. It was a bloodbath because I grew up in a Democratic, Irish Catholic Democratic family in Chicago.

Right.

And my father and my mother were like apoplectic. They're like, oh my God, it's the end of the world.

Right?

I remember we discussed politics at our dinner table like people talked about freaking math scores. That was a landslide. This was not a landslide. I mean, what was it? 300 and something? That was not a landslide. This was not a mandate. What is it? The House is at 218 to 214 or something like that, or 216. The margin of error is 2 votes, 3 votes.

It depends on who dies or who gets sick.

Who gets in the hospital or who just hit on an intern. This is not— people, people, they overstate underness all the time.

Yeah.

Oh, this is the end of the world. I'm like, fuck, you and I have been through too many ends of the world.

Yes, exactly.

Do you sit there and laugh? Do you just go like, oh, I've seen this fucking movie before?

It's more cringe.

Cringe? I laugh.

I don't— I'm not to the point of laughing. I'm not to the point of laughing because I watch basically the Supreme Court. And so I know that this is going to extend to— and so I pay attention to court appointees.

You know what? I do too. I read opinions.

And my boys are in their 20s. There's a very funny comedian. She's very hilarious. I believe she's a Gen X like me, and her kids are Gen Z like mine. And her routine starts out where she says, you know, so my kids are Gen Z, That's the end.

I had a kid that said that.

There are no more letters. And then she says things like, you know, and so they're dealing with the possibility of nuclear war, and they're dealing with this and that and drugs and this and that. But do your homework.

Yeah, but do your homework. Just get the aliens to come back now. Like, just come now. Like, I keep seeing online, like, you know, Atlantis is gonna rise, or Lemurians are gonna I'm like, can they come now?

Like, we could use them now. I'm like 58.

I'm like, I'm kind of tired, right? Like, they'd be really fucking great if they would— they could just solve all the power world and give us all enlightened love. Like, what are they wait— like, what are they waiting for? Like, are they waiting for like one more fuck-up? Like, what are— tell me what it is.

They probably just have better things to do, Matt.

You know, I think they're waiting for—

they're probably just in better worlds.

You think they're sitting there going, they're so fucked up, we're not going to— no, like, I know we were supposed to be here 10 days ago, I'm not coming. You people are screwed. Like, you think the aliens are like, nah, nope, like, no, too far gone. Let's just keep screwing with them, right? Oh, right.

Oh dear. Oh my God. Yeah, that is so funny.

I mean, because like everybody keeps saying, no, this is the age that the aliens are going to come back and the new Earth is going to be built. I'm like, I'm ready, dude. Like, I got a mortgage payment due. Can we have them come next week? I gotta finish up another college payment because if none of this is gonna matter, I'd like to know now.

Yeah, I know. But again, I mean, I definitely think that, you know, we've got these 4-year or 8-year cycles, and yes, things will change. Things will— some of the what I consider to be damage will be undone, right? Everybody thinks that.

Yeah, because they come in and they just undo all the other orders.

You're the one doing damage and we're gonna undo it. And then I'm like, okay, you guys are doing damage, and then hopefully we'll be able to undo it.

All the executive order things out of control.

But there are still things that are not 4 to 8 years. They are 30 years. And that's my kids trying to plan their retirement. And what's that going to look like? Plus longevity in my family. My mom's 88 and my dad's about to turn 90.

Well, I mean, that's the bigger issue. Like Social Security, remember they ran the model on Social Security of people living 3 years after retirement.

Right, right, exactly.

Like, are you going to retire at 65? Because I'm sure as hell not.

I don't know. I can't answer that right now. Okay.

Yeah. Today you're not feeling all that great. You're like, fuck it, I'll retire. Okay.

It's very— it's got appeal. Okay.

It's got— today it's got appeal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not gonna be able to retire 'cause, you know, I've got a lot of work to do and, you know.

That's— I feel that way too.

I have a lot of work to do. You feel the same way?

Absolutely. I think about this every day. Like, if I won the lottery, what would I spend my time doing?

Would you do this? Keep doing this? Would you build a bigger brand?

I would. Here's what I would do. Here's what I would do. My patients that are doing great, I would spend less time with them. I would bring in maybe a nurse practitioner. I would do something for them to just keep them feeling great, because they're—

Yeah, once you get into the maintenance mode, it's—

We call them cruise control, and they're great, and they love it. They love the title. They love being in cruise control.

Yeah, I'm on cruise control with my doctor.

Then for new patients, those are my absolute favorite. Like, the first year is The transformational year. And it's just awesome. And it totally juices me up. Plus with all the advising that I've received and that I've sought out and been coachable, right? That's—

You've been very coachable, by the way.

Thank you. And I've been coachable for a long time. And again, pursuing money mindset types of things. So I have raised my prices to a point that I'm really happy with. I know there are people who charge more than I do, and there are people who charge less than I do. And there are menopause coaches who charge more than I do, and they can't even prescribe. Okay.

Isn't that amazing?

So I feel really good, right? So this is also like a bit of a message to doctors, right? 'Cause that's, it's scary. Okay. But another thing that's been happening lately that I haven't had a chance to fill you in on is that a lot of the patients I've been taking care of for a very long time, so they came in at really low pricing models as we're asking them to renew. And they are not at the price that my new people are at.

Right. So there's a gap.

It's still really modest, but it's a lot more than what they started at. And I have them feeling great. They're good. And so they're choosing not to renew their yearly program. Fantastic. I love it. It's great. I literally I can have 4 of those folks say to me, thank you for all your help. My doctor is willing to write these prescriptions. And I can say, fantastic. Vaya con Dios. Okay? Okay. And 4 of them can bow out, and I can have—

And you replace with a new one.

One.

Yeah.

One new person at my lowest tier.

And isn't that really what you want to do as a doctor?

That is.

Is to graduate patients.

And I call them graduates.

Yes. That's what we call when somebody— like, people work with us for 3 or 4 years, We're actually creating a new group for the alumni for them to stay in.

Yes, alumni.

It's gonna be like less expensive and it's a way for— and it's gonna be like the pantheon of all the greatest in the mind.

Yes, I love that. Keep the resources, keep the community.

We're gonna call it the Pantheon, right? And it's gonna be by invite only. But the whole point is you never leave because we want to—

Yes, you want to stay.

I want to— it's gonna be a lot less expensive than what we charge now. And it's designed specifically, it's different things. Like you're not, you don't like enough coaching and all of that. Like we'll do some masterminds, but the whole point of it is exactly that. Stay connected, right? And like you said, people can do— yeah. And you graduated them on. So you've handed them off. You've saved their lives. Right.

And their marriages a lot of the time.

Yeah.

Isn't that great?

Isn't that the best?

It's the best.

Isn't that the best?

It's the best.

Do you wind up treating their husbands?

So the very few men that I have in my, in my practice are mostly husbands or partners or referred.

Right.

Or kicked in the pants and said, you know, you need to go see her. But at this point, I've also done something and I And I think you talk about this, but I know I've gotten coaching on this, which is, it's counterintuitive. I mean, I can help everyone, right? I'm doing hormone balancing. Most people need that in some way, shape, or form. However, my marketing is now super narrow.

To women.

To women, let's say 40s and 50s. I prefer later 40s to 50s. That's really the sweet spot. Where they've— it's very specific. They've been dismissed by other doctors. Things are better now with the changes that the FDA removing the black box warning from—

Do you think that's going to change the opinion of OB-GYNs?

So here's what it has already.

Oh, really?

Yes, but it's being treated like new information. Now we know that hormones are safe. And I'm like, oh my God.

It's been around forever.

So now my patients are having trouble getting their stink Yeah, that's a big deal right now. Oh, it's such a fucking headache.

People call me all the time, it's like, what do we do about the estrogen patches? I'm like, make them yourself. Like, not that you can.

There's like very—

I got no answers.

There's hilarious Instagram reels of like a woman in a back alley deal. Oh yeah, he's like, what do you want? What do you need? And she's like, I need my estrogen patches. It's hilarious. Yeah, it's really, really funny. He's like, okay. And then he's like, name some ridiculous price.

Yeah, I've heard some pretty funny stories.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Like, one of my, one of my doctors, like, uh, she's really smart, and I think she, like, pre-bought a bunch of extra estrogen patches.

Did she see that coming?

She saw it coming. She's really smart. She's been in this space for 20 years, 25 years. She's another one of the OGs. I'm trying to get her on the podcast, and she's like, no, I gotta hang out on my boat. Like, she's just like, no.

I'm like, oh, that sounds like—

I helped you, like, get free. Like, I changed your business. I made— I took her— I took her monthly recurring revenue model from like $45,000 a month to like $350,000 a month. I'm like, I saved your fucking baking during COVID Get on the podcast. She's like, no, I don't want that. She's like, I'm not coming on. I'm like, all right. I can't even mention her name.

All right. Well, you can tell me later. And if I see her at a mastermind, I could like try to—

She's semi-retired. Her husband's worth like $200 million. Like they got a yacht. Like you go fishing in the Bahamas.

She's like, why should I spend my time?

She's like, I'm not gonna bother with you.

That's hilarious.

But yeah, so she's Her clinics are still active. And I remember we texted and she's like, oh yeah, I pre-bought a bunch of like estrogen patches just in case.

That's hilarious. I didn't pre-buy them. I didn't see that coming. But I happen to have extras because I mostly do the hormone pellets for myself. I have a colleague, she does— I do her pellets, she does my pellets every 4 months, which is just so easy. But there's times where you need the patches in between. Yeah, they tide you over, etc. So So I ended up with them. And every time I look at them, I feel guilty. I'm like, can I give up boxing these?

Can I give boxing these away?

But then it really wouldn't be fair. Like, who—

how am I going to— Now you're playing God. It's kind of like who gets on the lifeboat on the Titanic.

Oh, right.

Who's going to get laid?

Yeah, it's exactly like that.

Even though there's extra seats, you're not a woman and child, so men, you can't get in. Right? Like, you know?

Yeah.

And if you try, man, I'm going to shoot you. You got to die. You're going to die on the boat with the rest of us into the freezing water. Isn't that hilarious?

Yeah, that's what I call funny in a not funny way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what has what's been one of your big changes in the last six months? And I'm this this is kind of self-serving. I mean, like you sure sure. So for those of you that Liz is one of our clients, and we met on the B H R T training academy cruise. We had we sat at the same dinner table, and a lot of nights was you, me, and Christine.

Yes.

Okay. And you were pretty skeptical 'cause you'd been like, oh, I've been in coaching programs. I did not take that personally. You took it as a challenge.

Yeah, exactly. No, that was not a problem. And I knew you wouldn't take it personally. So I'll tell you exactly what was going on in my mind at the time is I, anyone who cares about their business spends money on their business. And I'm also aware that doctors are, easy prey. I'm constantly being approached.

You are very easy prey.

All right. For example, I started right before, 3 months before I met you, I was at A4M and I decided to go forward with a podcast. I'd been wanting to do it for a long time. So I hired Dr. Torres to do it. Yeah. Met Brad. It was great. All good. And so So we start working together, whatever, end of January, let's say. And they say, okay, you have to record 12 episodes. And then we'll discuss when to launch. So I recorded the 12 episodes. And then my project manager says, I'm so excited. You're my first person I'm working with to do, to record all the episodes. And I go, but that's what you told me to do. And Brett's on that call too. And he's like, yeah, But most doctors don't do it.

No, they don't.

So I'm very aware of how much doctors spend.

Well, it's that way in every industry. Like, I've had— I've run coaching programs where 50% of the people never made their coaching calls.

Okay. I totally believe you. And also doctors with having seen that there's X amount in the bank and they say, okay, I can hire this person, but then they don't do what the person tells them to do. I know.

That's one of the most frustrating things.

So that was partly what was on my mind. Also, I was struggling, as you know, with a salesperson that wasn't doing a good job. And so I was just aware of constraints that were happening in my actual business. And so that was really, skepticism is not the word I would use. It was more like resignation, right? Which is probably worse.

That is, resignation is the worst place. It's a killer.

It's a killer.

When people, we get on a call and they're like, I'm just resigned. I'm gonna, I've got 5 more years. I'm just gonna sacrifice my life and stay in the hospital.

Yeah.

I can retire when I'm 58. It's not going to be easy, but I can still do it, and I can always pick up locum work. So that's— I'm like, God.

Exactly, exactly.

I don't want to drive to the room and shake them.

No vision, no vision, no hope. I know, it's, it's, it's the most depressing thing in the world. Yes, it really kind of is. Yeah. So that was happening, and then there was the rest of the conference and listening to other doctors speaking, uh, and I still hadn't heard you give your presentation. But during the course of that, I was like, you know what? This is my business. It was an epiphany.

Mm-hmm.

And then I was very clear. This is not my skillset. Running a business, not my skillset. And I do have to hire help. And then I think the thing that you said to me in another conversation a little while after that, was the— not a promise, but a goal to recoup the annual investment in the first 90 days. And I thought, okay, that is possible.

Absolutely possible.

I knew that it was possible. And so I said, let's just do this. So I jump in and it so happened that a mastermind was like right then, 2 weeks later.

It was literally 2 weeks later.

It was my kid's birthday. He was turning 28. He doesn't care.

So great. Over 20, like, just send money, Mom.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

Which, you know, which I do. So he's like, but right.

Okay.

So a lot of these things like in my mind, oh, my kid's birthday. Never mind. Like, you can, you can go to Phoenix. You can do that. And I knew it would be great. And it was great.

Thank you.

It was actually greater than I expected.

So that was great. Thank you. I received that.

Yeah. And And I started making changes quickly, working with Dean, my coach, and just like, he's my coach, right? Like the team player gets sent out on the field. Coach says, do this, you do it.

Right.

'Cause the coach can see the big picture.

That's a hard thing, I think, for a lot of people to do, especially doctors. Like, I've always taken the approach, the coach told me to run through the wall, so I'm gonna run through the wall.

Yeah. Yes. And I have had practice with that, and a lot of people have it. And that's on top of the personality Particularity. It's not— the word's not coming to me. I don't want to say defect. I don't want to say—

Peculiarities.

Okay, we can say that. Special, special of doctors. You have to have a degree of ego to make it through.

Absolutely.

You just have to.

All Type A personalities, all people that achieve great things are a fucking pain in the ass.

Exactly.

Exactly. I can be a giant pain in the ass. Trust me.

Yes. I don't know that about you, but I believe you. I do trust you.

No, I mean, I'm very particular. I mean, look, one, I know how I'm wired. I know how I'm designed.

Yeah.

Right? And like, as a side note, like, it's the hotel I'm staying in. The hotel's nice. The staff is nice. The food service is like the urgency of like, I don't know, I can't come up with an analogy, you know? And like—

None.

I just, I'm like, the guy wants, you know, when I order breakfast, I order the same thing. I'm like, I want 3 eggs scrambled. I want some bacon. Bacon, water. You want this? No, I just want that. You want this? No, I just need this. Like, just bring my bill. Like, it's like, I'm like very—

Right, right. I'm also Aries, so I'm with you on that.

Yeah, I'm a Scorpio. So I'm like, oh my God, and I'm a dull Scorpio, right? I've just learned to like not come across pissed off, you know?

Right, exactly.

Like, I try not to come off as an asshole.

Yeah, well, that's something I always say.

Unless of course you're like, you know, a Gemini, and then you're gonna get really pissed off at me, right? You know, I don't know.

I don't know how Aquarius does, or Pisces, but okay. Uh, no, that's absolutely Yeah.

So you've just learned to like listen to your gut. Like, as you're saying, like doctors are the most, they're very challenging.

Yes. So taking the bold steps is my personal work. And I was just willing and ready to do it. This is part of my message is midlife is the opportunity, right? Like in my 20s, I vividly recall how much I cared about what other people thought.

Yeah. Do you care anymore about what people think?

Barely. It's minimal. It's minimal. It's to the point where I anticipate like if they don't like it, like right now I just listened to my marketing person and there's things that I would like to change.

She's great, by the way. I'm gonna have her on the podcast. I'm in New York.

Oh, good.

2 weeks from now.

She's lovely. She's amazing. She's running a political campaign right now. She's got stories. Oh, she has.

Oh, she's got stories.

stories.

I'm so excited.

She is very lovely. She's a beautiful soul. And so there are things that have been happening, for example, that affect women's reproductive healthcare that I would really like to comment on. And at the moment, I'm just kind of keeping my counsel. And she says, will it bring you more patients? And the answer is no. So I'm just holding my tongue for right now. But I really want to do more of that. So I have very specific, clear goals. What, where I want to get to with my practice and my business, how to bring in help. Again, maybe a nurse practitioner.

And that was a big thing for you, like, because you had gone through—

Yes.

You'd gone through a really difficult season of life.

Yes.

And as you have those big changes, you lost someone very dear and dear to you.

Yes, my beloved husband.

Yes. It wasn't my place to say.

Yes, I got remarried and It was 8 years total. We were together for a year, got married, and 7 years later he got sick and he died 9 weeks later.

9 weeks later. And it was very— he was the soulmate.

Yes, yes, yes. Helped me run the business. And God bless him, and I know he's listening, he wasn't very detail-oriented. I've done a lot of cleanup in the last year and a half.

Well, yeah, I mean, look, it'd be the same thing with Christine and I. Like, yeah, I've been married and divorced twice, and they were both wonderful women. Ain't nothing compares to what she and I have. Like, unfortunately. And that's not any disrespect to those beautiful, 2 beautiful women that I was married to.

Right.

But yeah, I mean, I would be devastated. Right. Yeah. So you were coming out of that and you had to deal with all of that.

Yes.

The estate stuff and all of that.

Still dealing with that.

Still dealing.

Yeah.

You've been dealing with it for a while.

Not as— it doesn't come at me as thick and fast as it did initially. But yeah.

And you kind of stepped away from the business and you let your employees kind of run the show. And you kind of lost control a little, lost a little. I don't want to say full because if they listen, like, that's not fair to them.

I just say took my foot off the gas. That's how I—

You took your foot off the gas.

Yes.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

I had a good— I had 2 good people on my team, one managing the operations of the office and the other managing the sales. But then they each had things in their life. So that led to some changes.

And you've had to kind of change And grown your leadership style, haven't you?

Absolutely.

What would you say has been the biggest challenge?

I tell you, the biggest challenge has been communicating in a way that I am strong, I am decisive, and they still know I care. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the hardest thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Because at our base level, we all want to be liked. Right.

That's right.

And we all operate.

That's right.

I had this revelation the other day. It's going to be a teaching, so I'm going to give you a little preview of it. And I realize— so I had a client in, we were doing a day, and she asks the question— I get this question all the time— how do you find really great employees? And my answer has always been like, well, you got to focus on your values and are they a culture fit and all that. And I routinely— you've been around me, I get these downloads, right? You see it happen.

Yes.

And usually, you know, it happens when I go, well, let's figure this out. And I go to the whiteboard, I just draw it out. And then I get done, I'm like, oh, fuck, that's good. Take a picture of it. Like, this is how this works for me. So I'm standing at the whiteboard. She goes, how do you, how do you find really great people? And I'm opening my mouth, getting ready to do the values and the culture talk and all that. And I go, you can't hire great people until you understand that you hire out of your woundedness.

Wow.

Excellent. And I can't— I got to be careful how much I say, but basically because of what happened to her in her life as growing up, yes, her Human Design is one way. Yes, she's supposed to have a lot of downtime, hermit time, like me. Yes, but she has set it up because when she had this trauma, she had to take over her family. And so she's used to the that need and desire of proving her worth for everybody to need her, which requires them to have 24/7 access to her, which is in conflict with her design, which causes this bitterness. Right. And this afternoon we're going to go over yours, right? Like before our session.

Yes.

And this causes this bitterness. And I said, the problem is you're hiring out of this wounded child over here and this need to constantly prove your worth. So therefore you are hiring people that you're going to have to micromanage to prove your worth.

That's so helpful.

Isn't that amazing?

Well, I can tell you something in real time.

Go ahead.

My salesperson who I was very excited about, the new one that I hired yesterday, told me that she's very sorry, but she found full-time work, which is great.

Good for her.

We had a wonderful conversation. I said, I wish you absolutely the best. She said, I'm not gonna leave you high and dry. I can cover until you find someone. Okay, fantastic. But I'll tell you the thought that I had. So now I'm having a little epiphany in real time here, which is a belief That it's difficult to find someone who will be only working part-time because I don't run a model that would be a full-time income for a salesperson.

Yeah.

So that's the intermediate level.

Or you just make the comp so amazing because you change the way that your pricing is structured or whatever.

Yes, exactly. But there's solutions.

There's solutions. There's— it's not an either/or. It's always both and what.

Yes. Including the fact that it's been that way up to now also doesn't mean that that predicts the future.

Right. The future— everybody wants to say the past always predicts the future. I disagree.

Right. Absolutely.

Because we can choose our own future.

Exactly.

So yes.

Okay. I have a really beautiful Kabbalah piece with this, which is that going forward, we have free choice. We have free will. We can choose going forward. But we must, and I personally think for our own sanity, that's not what they say, the teachers say, but the way I interpret it—

That's the Liz addendum.

Correct. But the teaching is that everything that happened to you up to now, you must think of it as it was God's will and God forced your hand. And it's very freeing.

Interesting.

Because you can't recriminate yourself.

Right.

It's like, okay, that happened because that was my path at that moment.

Yeah.

Okay. Now what I do tomorrow, I can influence, but everything that happened up to now, I can just choose to look at it that way. That's how I choose. A God, source, whatever. It's not a religious— Kabbalah is not religious. It's really the spirituality that preceded all religions, or at least the Judeo-Christian and Muslim, all those religions. There was like this— like if you asked Abraham or Moses if they were Jewish, they wouldn't know what you were talking about.

Right.

So that's sort of a lot of study that I've been doing.

I'll say this. Most people want to spend their lives relitigating and re-prosecuting the past.

Right. Exactly. Well, this one little tidbit can just free people.

That's a big way to free it.

Yep. Cool.

Well, Liz, we are out of time.

Okay.

See, you made it.

I know.

Did you think you were gonna make it at the beginning?

Yes.

Okay, good.

Yes.

I knew you would. So if people wanna find out more about what you do, website?

Website. My website, I just have redone it. It's all in my voice. I love, I love it. And it has a contact button on every single page. Doesn't matter where you go. There's a free ebook that people can download, which is a guide to midlife. So I love that. A lot of heart went into that. But it's very easy to schedule.

A discovery call, and the domain is through that.

It's Dr. Liz MD, drlizmd.com. Beautiful. Yeah.

Thanks. I'm glad we were able to finally do this. I got on yours. Now you're on mine. Absolutely. Here we go.

Thank you.

Thanks, Liz. Appreciate it.

Absolutely.

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