S5 Ep. 5 On Performance Anxiety and Self-Consciousness

Hi, this is Meadow Devore. And this is the Meadow Devore podcast. Real life, real talk, real solutions. And today we're talking to a woman who wrote in and says I have crippling anxiety around work. Conference calls, face to face meetings, even ones where I'm not expected to talk. Speaking up, contributing to project related conversations. She says, I'm a senior copywriter in marketing and I'm confident in my ability to perform the writing side of the job. I receive constant praise and feedback for the work I do, but I get paralyzed when it comes to verbal interaction or attention. Because of this fear, I often sabotage certain projects and collaboration opportunities. In fact, I've turned down a director role at a previous company due to the thought of myself having more visibility. I've even left companies due to this fear and I've started at a lower position elsewhere for less pay. My anxiety tricks me into thinking that to remain invisible and small is the safe route. So I let my writing speak for itself. But in this business, inevitably I have to pitch and I have to use my actual voice. My security blanket is sitting in the chair behind the computer, unseen. But when I have to do a conference, and this is often and a lot, or make an appearance in the office, which requires monthly travel, I get overwhelmed and obsess about these events for weeks before they happen. I'm consumed by future events where I might have to speak until they are over and then they start back up again. It's an exhausting cycle I'd like to break. My gut tells me there are self esteem and self worth and confidence issues going on beneath the surface of probably more. So that's where I started. I read through that. I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted to work on. So in this coaching session, you're going to hear me start with some of the things I teach in almost all of my classes. And this has to do with self esteem, confidence, insecurity. You'll hear me touch on the four voices, which is the mind voice, the heart voice, the body voice, and the soul voice. And then we'll start to put it into, into action for her and we'll see. Toward the end of the session, I start talking about other things that might be going on. And that's. So there's a couple different pieces to this session. So if you have like stage fright or if you have anxiety or if you have performance fear, you don't like to be the center of attention, this session might be right up your alley. And also if you have maybe some stuff from Your childhood that you haven't quite worked through, you might start to resonate with her as well. In this session, we talk about dissociation, we talk about coping mechanisms, we talk about fear, control. And at the end, I was on video with her so I could see her face and some of the silent areas. I just want you to know she's just feeling things. And often, as a coach, the best thing I can do is just sit with her and be quiet. So if you hear some stretches of quiet toward the end, that's all that was happening. So as you listen, see how you would answer these questions. See if any of this resonates for you. And especially if you have this particular fear. Try to try on some of these questions for yourself. I'll see you on the other side. So we are just going to start right in on what are you afraid of? You are afraid of something. What is it?

On the surface, I would say public speaking.

Why is that scary to you?

Well, diving a little deeper, I think I am fearful of messing up, of being wrong, of being seen.

Okay, so those are three different things. So let's slow this down. So why are you afraid of messing up? What's bad about that?

Nothing. I know rationally that it's okay if you're wrong.

Okay. But you're afraid of it. So what does it mean to you if you're wrong or what does it mean in these contexts especially? It sounds like work is the big one.

It's the big one. But I think it, you know, spills over into a lot of other areas of my life, I think losing credibility, not being taken seriously.

Okay, so if you mess up, then you lose credibility. And what would that mean?

I'm a fraud.

Okay.

I'm not good at what I do. I shouldn't be in this position.

So are you, like, secretly thinking they're gonna find this out? So you're like, trying to cover this up a lot or like the fraud feeling? I totally know the fraud feeling. But is that you're mostly trying to cover.

Yeah. And I've talked to a lot of people that this fraud thing. A lot of people have. I know that. I think.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just the fear of being found out or someone telling me what I've spent the last 20 plus years building and doing. I'm doing incorrectly or I'm not where I'm supposed to be. I'm not good enough.

Yeah. Okay. So I'm just going to reflect this back to you. Let's just say on a Tuesday afternoon at 1:30 you have to go in and you have to present for something about work. And unconsciously you have made this mean. If you do it well, you get to continue doing your life. If you do it not so well, this means you are not good enough. The last 20 years of your life has been for a waste. And everybody wants will know that you're secretly very bad at all of this. That's pretty high stakes for a meeting, right? Yes, I would say anybody would have anxiety if that's what they made it mean.

Yeah.

Okay, so when you're watching other people lead meetings, speak publicly, do you see anybody that does it really well? Have you ever seen anybody that does it well?

Yeah, most of the leaders, the leadership team at my company, I mean, they do it very well. Specifically my, my boss's boss, who happens to be a woman.

Okay.

She's amazing at it.

So let's talk about what. What does she do that you admire? What are the qualities that you're seeing that she's a able to embody or carry through?

She exudes just a self confidence that seems natural. It seems, it doesn't seem forced, it doesn't seems very authentic.

Yeah. Okay, so that's where I'm gonna want to stop you because that I think is exactly the thing. There's. There's one person that's faking confidence and trying so desperately hard that nobody will find out. And then there's another person that seems very authentically confident. So let's just talk about confidence because this is a very interesting thing because I think that's what is going on for you. Like you don't feel like you can get to this confident place. You're pretending to be confident, but it's totally backfiring. Pretending to be confident never works for anybody, no matter how good you are at your job. It's actually this backwards approach. So first of all, I want you to think about what is confidence. And I'm going to flip this upside down. Most people think confidence is a thing to get like they have confidence. What I want you to think about is that confidence is a lack of a thing. It's actually just a lack of insecurity. Confidence itself is not a thing. Insecurity is a thing. Self consciousness is a thing. Okay, does that make sense?

Yes.

So it's not like you're trying to get to this place called confident. You're actually just trying to peel off this self consciousness. That's all that has to happen. So like confidence is actually like a zero. It's not that you get to this 10 place. It's actually just zero. And right now you might be at negative six. But, like, naturally, like, the natural space is to be what we perceive to be confidence. But all that means is there's just a lack of self consciousness. Now, the word self consciousness means being conscious of self, like thinking about yourself. Right. And so people that don't have the self consciousness just aren't thinking about themselves. That's all the differences.

That's all.

They're thinking about the project, they're thinking about the person across from them. They're thinking about what they're gonna have for lunch. They're thinking about something else.

That's all.

That's like the big magical mystery. That is all that's happening.

Okay.

So I can see her face. She's smiling and looking at the ceil.

I'm absorbing and processing. I have always thought of confidence as something that I lacked, that I wanted to attain.

I know.

And so I'm thinking about it in the way you just delivered it to me. And it makes sense. I'm just.

How do you put it to action? Right.

Well, then I was also thinking, like, well, yeah, because it's so much easier for me to speak to something if I'm really, really busy. If I'm almost overwhelmed with project and workload to be able to run a meeting, I.

When there's no space to think about self.

Right.

You could probably do it. Right.

I can do it better. Still a struggle for me to speak in group settings.

That's okay. It's totally fine. So, I mean, there. The Speaking in group settings is definitely. That's a skill. I used to be so bad at it. I would turn red and I would sweat so bad. So bad. Like, my pits would be so bad, I would be shaking. My face would be super red. I mean, I owned a music conservatory for a long time, and I'd have to do these recitals once a year. And I swear I would get up on the stage and all I wanted to say was like, thank you for coming. It was like one sentence that I'd be shaking so bad in front of people. And these are, like, people I saw every day. I just taught their kids, like, this is not Carnegie Hall. This was just like my local little group of piano parents. And I would just shake. So it's a skill that you could definitely learn. But there's key pieces of this one is if you make this way too important, and you make this, like, you give this terrible story to it. Like, this Is this means so much about me, basically, which is the self conscious viewpoint. It's how I speak is about me, how I deliver. This is about me. How I look on stage is about me. Right. So like, that is reflecting back to self. Right. And. And that is a losing strategy for this type of a thing.

Okay, I get that. And I've heard you talk about that before and I. And it does make sense because it's a very self absorbed thing to do. To think, oh, my God, everyone's looking at me.

It's a habit. Yeah. It's just a habit. And so there's a reason why this habit is in place. And at the end of it, like, you're wanting to be good at your job. That is great. That's wonderful. But there's two different pieces to this. One is being good at your job, and then one is being seen as being good at your job. And the being seen part is called image. And wanting a certain image gets you into trouble. The minute you're invested in an image and wanting to look a certain way and appear a certain way and appear smart or appear successful, believe me, this is like crack. And you can get really hooked on it, trying to chase that idea that you're trying to get to. And so I want you to think of this woman that you're like, she's really good at it. Do you have the. Do you ever get the impression that she's really thinking about herself right then? No.

I mean, she's very focused on the task at hand.

Yeah. Yeah. So that is what you're perceiving to be. Conscious confidence. And that is also what you're perceiving to be. Authenticity.

Mm.

Which is great.

Yeah. So I understand everything you just said.

Mm.

How do. And I honestly, like, I don't want to be her. I don't want to run a room that way. I don't want to get. I'm, you know, a writer in a marketing for big corporation. In the marketing department. Big corporation. So, you know, I found the perfect profession in the sense that I communicate with the written word, not the verbal one. But I do have to pitch ideas. I do have to be in group settings. I do have to sell my ideas. And I'm just. That part of the job trips me up. Because all those physical things you were describing about you delivering that one thank you sentence. I get that. Just sitting in a meeting, even if I'm not supposed to talk, and I know that's me telling myself a story, it's that.

But then you also have, like a physical response happening. So you have a mental pattern, you have an emotional pattern, and you have a physical pattern happening. So you have three different things happening that we have to kind of separate out and figure out. So sometimes it's the mental story that started. Starts it, and then the cascade of fear and then running away from fear, and then you have this resistance in your body that's happening. So it's like a head, heart, body thing happening. Sometimes it's. You might just have a body sensation from being in a room with people where you might be empathic and picking up on vibrations, and you interpret that to be dangerous, whatever. And so, like, the body might be starting it, and then it cascades to mind and heart afterwards. Or you might just be in fear. And then the brain starts telling all its crazy stories and the body's responding. So of those three parts of you or the three out of the four voices, there's the fourth voice is soul. But out of those three voices that, they go in all kinds of different orders. So you just have to be able to separate out what. What's going on. So there's that. That mental voice that I was talking about, and that's the one that's like making a big deal out of this, making it mean a lot, and also very. That that is focused on self at that point. Then there's the actual emotion. What is the true emotion that you're feeling? And my hunch is it's two different emotions. One is fear, which seems obvious, right? You're.

You're.

You're afraid of this. You know, you're afraid of this. But the other one is shame. And shame is fear of ostracism, fear of losing your place in the pack, fear of that. And that's what shame is.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So how do you deal with both of those?

Are you asking me how I do deal with it now?

Well, yeah. Like, talk to me about what. What does fear mean to you? How do you. How do you feel it and how do you work through? What does it mean? If you're afraid, what do you. How do you interpret fear?

I do anything I can to avoid that outcome. Okay, I will. If it's fear of a deadline, then I'll get it done as soon as possible. If it's. I don't know.

Okay. So often people kind of. What you just said is, I will try to control it. You didn't say it, but that's. That's kind of. That. That's your right strategy there, right? Yeah. You can't control the way people perceive you.

Right.

So when you're going in with this story of I must, you know, be able to do this in this container that I can control. You're so fucked. Like, so, so fucked. You will not win. So there's this thing called surrendering on purpose to the fact that you are not in control. And that is terrifying. But that also is what confidence looks like to outsiders. Of, like, I'm not. I'm just gonna show up and see what happens. I'm gonna just say my mind. I'm just gonna sit here and participate or not participate. I'm not going to need to control this. The need to control is to just simply try to make things predictable and safe. That's all you're trying to do. And that's a beautiful, awesome idea, except that it doesn't work in real life. That's a fantasy.

Yeah.

And so it's almost like if I can make this controllable and safe, this little incubator, then of course I will be able to speak in front of people. That. But. But you're never gonna get there because that's an. That's a mirage. That's an illusion. You can't get to this place where everything's gonna be controlled and predictable and safe for you.

Okay?

It's just not. It's just not safe. Ostracism can happen or not happen. People can not like you or like you. They can like your ideas or not like your ideas. They can think you're stupid or not stupid. Right. Like, you really have no control at all over how people perceive you.

And that happens all the time. And it's fine, you know, I get ideas rejected all the time. I get, you know, so what's the.

Difference when you're okay with it versus not okay with it?

I'm okay with it when it happens.

It's.

It's the anticipation of it.

The anticipation of being rejected. Or is the public knowing about the rejection?

Well, I don't know.

It's.

It's. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Because I mean, my job, you know, 50% of the stuff I produce is rejected and 50% is praised and liked. And I roll with it. And it's easy. I mean, I. I take constructive criticism very well. It's the being in a meeting or a kickoff and having someone put the spotlight on me and I'm supposed to speak something like in the hot seat. And then I, I blank. You know, I'm so fearful of that happening. You know, I go into a meeting thinking that could possibly happen because it has happened before. And I don't know what to say or I say the, you know, I say a slew of words that I don't remember because I black. I black out.

Right, right, right. You're not home. You're not home.

So that's the fear. I'm fearful of my reaction to a situation like that, okay? Because I. It's a physical, biological thing happening that I can't control. I can't meditate right then and there, which, you know, I do meditate, I do therapy on my own. I work out.

Right.

I eat healthy. But in these certain situations where I'm in it daily.

Right, right. So there, there is something you can do. And so let me, let me tell you what you can do. So when you're, when you're conscious of self, when you're doing the self conscious thing, you are up in your head. Your focus and your point of consciousness is on the thinking mind. It's with the sentences going through your head. I hope they don't pick on me. Oh my God, I'm not gonna know what to say. This is gonna happen. They're all gonna stare at me and I'm not gonna have anything to say. That will never click over to be the creative mind, nor will it click over to be the improv mind that can just wing an answer. Right. Then the only way that you will be able to do that is if you're not listening to that thinking mind. So when you're. You said I can't meditate, right? Then you actually can. You can. And it, and it goes like this. Can you feel your butt in a chair? And if you can't feel your butt in the chair, you, you're not home enough to be in that meeting. Like, you're up in your head the minute you can feel your butt in the chair, feel your feet on the ground, the minute you can even grab the table or kick your feet off and feel, is it carpet or is it hardwood that puts you into your body and out of your head so you go blank because you're not home. To be blunt, there's nothing to come to. There's nothing can come to you. You're somewhere else. Like you're back in third grade when your teacher picked on you the first time or whatever it is. That's where you are. You're not in this time zone, you're not in this location. You're not in this chair. You're not able to Hear even what they're asking of you. Right, right. Like, so that that idea of flow, of being like very present and very able to concentrate, that is a type of meditation. But that requires you to be in your body.

Okay.

And so what I, what I'm hearing is that the minute you think that this is going to happen to you, you dissociate from a dissociated place. You cannot function. Nobody can. It's a coping mechanism to not have to feel what's going on or be where you are, the opposite of what you're wanting in a meeting. But it's great if you're abused child, like you don't want to be there for that. And so you might have learned that at once upon a time. This is what happens when I get scared, I pop out, I go somewhere else. Uh huh. And so, and now this is a scary situation. And I'm going to do the same coping mechanism and I'm going to do the same coping mechanism over and over and over, except that this doesn't work in the workplace.

And that really resonates with me. But as an adult and as someone who is in their 40s, how come I can't bring my rational mind into this and stop disassociating? Like what?

It's not a mind thing. So dissociating means you're going to your mind, you are using rational minds, you're going out of the body into the mind rather than staying in the body. So it's a coping mechanism where you, you actually recess into the mind so that you don't have to feel the emotions and you don't have to feel the body sensations.

Okay.

So. So it's actually kind of an over rational mind is what's happening right there, if that makes sense to you. So that's what I mean. Can you feel the butt in the chair? Because the minute you force yourself back into the chair. Can I feel it? Then you're back in your body. And then you're gonna have to feel the actual fear that you're feeling and learn how to stay with fear and not jump away. So yes, if you have like abuse in your background, trauma in your background, addiction in your background, anything where you got to escape anytime things got hard, you're gonna have to teach yourself to stay longer in it. And you do it like little minutes at a time. I can do this for a minute, I'm gonna do this for two minutes and then I'll let myself go up into my head.

Okay.

It's called a Triggered response. It's like a. Because it's unconscious. You're not. It's not like you're walking into class, you know, your office, going, I'm now going to dissociate. Goodbye, everybody. I'm out. You know, it just is happening without your consent. Because this. This was a coping device. It worked for you. It is a habit.

Well. And when you say, you know, I have to stay with the fear, that's scary.

Yeah.

Because I do live my life trying to avoid. Well, you know, if my heart's starting to beat really fast and I can feel the tingle sensations in the meaning, think I'm gonna pass out or faint or something. And so I think that's when I go to my mind. I go.

Right.

And I dissociate.

Yeah.

So in order. So I have to actively feel my butt in the chair, feel my feet.

On the ground, Feel your shaking knees, feel how sweaty you get. Yeah.

And my voice shakes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. It is scary. It is scary. So there's a book called the Body Keeps the Score by Evander Gulk. Have you read it?

No, but I've heard you and Laura McCowan recommended.

Yeah.

Have it on my list.

Yeah. So he talks about. This is a trauma response. It's like a little broken record where you just rewind. You know, you're like, you want to skip this hard part. You want to skip this hard part. You want to skip this hard part. And you've done it so many times that you don't even know how to play through it anymore.

Yeah.

And so that's. That's what, like, a somatic therapist can tell. Yoga can teach you a lot of different places where they require you to be in your body. They teach you to be in your body, and they teach you that you can be safe in your body even while you're afraid. And that's what I'm really hearing for you, is that somewhere along the line, you decided, I can't do fear and you can continue to live your life like this, or you learn how to do fear and realize, oh, right. So let's talk about, like, a. Do you have kids?

I do.

Okay. So let's talk about, like, something really, really scary. Like two in the morning. You hear somebody. I can see you have stairs. So you hear somebody downstairs. And you know you have to protect your kids. What would happen?

I would run into their rooms immediately.

You wouldn't dissociate?

No.

You wouldn't just go up in your head, right?

No, I wouldn't.

That's real fear. That's how you deal with fear. You freaking protect. You just do what it takes. That's fear. So you do know how to do fear because you know exactly what you would do. You would protect them, you would run away, you would get them out the window. You would do whatever it took to stay safe, right? And in true, true fear, you know exactly what you have to do. So you. You're going into this meeting, calling it like the scary person at 2am, trying to take your kids away. It's not the same. You know, it's not the same. This is not like you're gonna die.

But it feels the same.

You think it might feel the same. So you are going to your safe place.

My body has the reaction. Like, all of the physical signs are the same. If I heard someone in the house, I can relate to that feeling in the enemy. I know it sounds silly.

No, no, no, it's not silly. But the difference is all the physical signs are the same, except in one, you took action, and in the other, you tried to shut it down. That's all.

Okay.

Fear is fear. So. Okay, let me just tell you. This is how you do a meeting. When you're afraid, you're like, holy shit, I am sweating. I am freaking out. Check my body out. This is amazing. I'm barely breathing. What if I pass out? Whoa. Okay. Stay with the butt in the chair. Do I feel my butt in the chair? Okay, this is what happens to my body when I'm afraid. Check it out. This is what's happening. Then they call you and you're like, oh, my God. I'm just thinking about my butt and my chair. And then you survive it, and then you do it again.

Yeah, I can. Those are some new tools.

Fear is meant to hone your. Your attention, to bring your attention to real, real focus. So you can actually use this fear of they might ostracize me or might lose my job, or they might laugh at me or whatever. I might look stupid. That's a real fear. And you can use it for focusing in what is the danger and how do I prevent this danger from getting in or getting around, Right? So, like, you actually just stay with it. You use the. Use it rather that. Rather than try to avoid it at 2 in the morning. You know, you wouldn't avoid it. You wouldn't just sit there and go, oh, I hope it all works out. Right. No, you would actually use it and you would. You would move your body, you would move forward in whatever way it took. Yeah, so, so that, that's the difference. There's this like actual true natural fear response and then there's a trauma or triggered fear response that's happening. Those are like two different things that's. That are happening for you. And ideally we want just the natural course of fear to run through and to help you. Yeah, it's going to make you breathe faster. That's what it does. It's going to make your heart pump faster. That's what fear does. It's naturally designed to do that to your body. It's going to give you a bunch of blood and a bunch of oxygen and you're going to feel a rush or a vibration through your body called fear. And that either can freak you out and you can try to run from it in your head, or you can just stay with it and go, yeah, this is fear. This is what it's meant to do.

Okay, so I have to accept that I have this triggered traumatic fear response in these settings and I have to live through them and do the exercises that you're saying.

Yes, so something happened. So when you have a trigger that that trauma, something happened in your history that has given you evidence that it wasn't safe to continue in that way. And so now you're continuing that pattern. So when you start to feel this meeting fear, you are overlaying history. So you're actually reenacting history rather than really in present time, what's happening. Okay, so. And that's absolutely common. Like, you know, I had a client once who peed her pants in second grade. Literally peed her pants in second grade. Like, that's what happened. And every time she felt like she needed to go to the bathroom, she had this like really incredible fear come up that she was going to pee her pants on the way. Like that was history. And then she was. Every time this was happening, it was like history was more in her eyesight or more in her focus than the actual reality of her. Right. So that, that's like triggered response, trauma response.

Yeah. I don't know what exactly mine would be. Does it, would it help for me to dive in and try?

I mean, it might, you might go back and think about like when, when is the first time you remember feeling like this?

You know, it's funny because I was a very outgoing kid. My parents always told me I didn't know a stranger, which probably not a good thing, but somewhere along the lines, you know, I was a front of the classroom kid. And then somewhere I became a back of the classroom kid.

And you can't pinpoint when.

You know, we had a big change. We moved from a small town to a big city around seventh or eighth grade. But I was still, like. I took debate. You know, I was in debate, which.

That. Holy cow. That's like the opposite of this.

Well, that was who I was. And then from 8th to 9th, 10th and on, two very different people. You know, like, I love debate. I would get up and in front of, you know, I mean, we'd have competitions and.

Yeah, that's hard.

I don't know who that. I don't know who that little girl is anymore from that.

Where did she go? What happened to her? Yes, I do think that that would be important to look at. Something happened.

Yeah. I don't know if it was the move with. You know, I moved from a place where I had grown up with these kids from, you know, preschool and on, and then we moved and I was trying to integrate with kids who had been together for. So, you know, that's hard for kids. That's just hard. I don't remember anything that stands out from that time period. I then went away to a boarding school. I asked to go away. My.

Why?

Well, my. My parents are both alcoholics. I think they've never. They wouldn't describe themselves that way or, you know, if you don't believe in the word alcoholic. They were heavy drinkers. And my sister had just gone away to college. She's five years older than me, so she was kind of a protective barrier for me from that. But there was no, like, physical abuse. If anything, it was emotional or neglect.

Yeah.

At the time, I didn't know that's why I was asking to go away. But after, you know, I've been in therapy. I've had a handful of therapists walking me through those kind of things. But without therapy, I wouldn't. I would never describe myself as growing up traumatized at all.

Well, trauma just means that it was just too much to handle in the moment. That's all.

Okay.

That's all it means. It doesn't mean like you were beaten with a baseball bat. It just means, like, something in your. It, like, short circuited and wasn't able to be processed at that point.

That. That's a little more digestible to me. Trauma is a big word in my head for some reason. I give it a lot.

Yeah. And there is, like, chronic trauma, which is a whole different ballgame. And that's not even what I'm talking about. You could have just had a really bad day where you Were like, just forgot. You know, it could have been a spelling bee or something and where you just felt on the spot and like you just kind of short circuited and weren't able to be there for. Was just too scary.

I mean, I had to give a speech one time in high school and my kneecaps started to shake. I mean, they were like. And I remember there was a girl that commented on it and I could hear her from the audience. And I don't remember finishing. I mean, I probably did, but I don't remember what I said. I think that was. That's the first time I ever remember having a physical response to getting up or all eyes on me kind of thing and not. And not. And. And not not caring about that. Then I started to become, I think, more self conscious about getting up.

I mean, that's all it takes. Yeah, One time, okay, one time where your knees were knocking and a girl commented, and you just don't even remember the rest of it. That's. That right there shows me you dissociated at that point. I don't know if it's the first time that you did it, but you did do that there.

That's the first time I remember doing it. And then I remember thinking, oh, I never want to do that again.

Yeah, no kidding. I don't blame you. I do not blame you. Right? But see, so whatever her name was, let's just call her Sally. So Sally says something about your knees, but this, that is what you're afraid of every single time you're going to a meeting. Now is Sally. Literally, that's what happens. That's how it works. It's like I bounced out. So this little history is just like embedded into my mind and I can't get through it without having to go through Sally every time.

Makes sense. Damn it, Sally.

Bitch. Sally.

My rational mind. I don't care if I fall on my face. I don't. I don't really honestly care if I get something wrong or say something that is, you know, not lining up with the data. I am. I can say I was wrong very easily. So it's not so. I don't know. Really. Like, am I that scared of what other people think? I don't. Like, if someone asks me if I care what people think of me, I. I really would say, like, I don't really care what you think of me, but is there some subconscious thing to it that I care?

I think that it's more like you care that they are thinking of you. Like you just don't want to be noticed, period.

I don't.

Yeah. So I don't think you're like trying to impress everybody. I think that's equally scary to you.

Yes. Like positive attention is just as scary to me as negative attention.

Yeah.

They were sitting there praising me or singing me happy birthday.

It would be just as nerve wracking.

Yes.

Yes. So tell me this. In a household of alcoholics, when all eyes were on you and no one else, how good did that feel?

I did everything in my power to, to avoid it. I mean, my sister confronted it, I hid, I went to my.

I also think it's that.

Yeah, okay.

I think it's that just don't even look at me. I'm safe.

You're not looking when you're in that situation, when you're doing that or I don't call you after 5 o'. Clock. I know. You know, I definitely have those.

But this is where the trauma gets interesting or working with trauma gets interesting. Because when you're working with people that are drunk, they are not. That's chaotic and there's no way to control it. There's no way to predict it. And that might be what is also being triggered in you when you go into these meetings that you cannot control, you cannot predict. You don't know if you're going to get called on. So. So in. In that container when you're a little kid and things get chaotic and uncontrollable, you know? Yeah. You learn to disagree. You learn to cope, however. You learn to cope. Right? Yeah, so. So yeah, you could have learned it there and you could have had the cellie thing happen and then you could be just reenacting both of those things. But yes, that's that. This is how it works. It's like there's something in the brain and the easiest way I can say it is like it's like a scratch on a record player, like it got scratched and you just learn to jump over that part. And so to really integrate self and to be able to handle these kind of things, that means you have to be able to play through the scratch. You have to figure out how to stay with yourself even if it's chaotic, even if it's uncontrollable, even if it. So that to me is very interesting. And that's what I check for if I feel like I must have been triggered because, like I don't remember and I realize I'm acting irrationally. Like you're saying I'm not really afraid of these people. So what's going on? Right. You know that. Except that then you get there and it's like I'm gone again.

Yeah.

So that. That, to me, is just a way to check in. Go. Okay. This an obviously triggered response. And so I need to know that there's this little kid in me that is still trying to cope in the same way. And I'm also an adult, and I can take care of that little kid and also, you know, hold her, do whatever, so that we can get through this.

So just because I survived and I'm here now and I'm a professional and have my life.

You're winning. You got a name.

But I still have to deal with my. I still have to deal with my past. I have to work through it. Is that what I'm hearing? Is it bubbling up? Is that what it is?

Yeah, it is.

You can't just push it away.

I mean, you can.

I. I don't think about it on a daily basis, but it's still affecting you. It is.

It is affecting you. It is affecting you. It's showing up in this nice little package of call, you know, social anxiety. Yay. Or performance anxiety. That's how it's showing up. And it doesn't mean, oh, my God, I have to just go, like, work through all this shit about my mother. Like, it's not necessarily that. It's like little. It's like scratches on a record player. There are just little places. And there might be like 10 little places in your life where you just haven't quite learned how to get from A to B. So you always go A to C. Yeah. And that's affecting you. Yes. And so, yeah, this. This work, like self. Self development work, personal development work, is trying to integrate all parts of self, which means also integrate childhood. You can't leave her behind.

Right.

She's part of you, and she's actually running a lot more of your life than you think.

Yes. I'm learning that very quick. She has reappeared in my 40s.

She'll do that.

It's here. And no. I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm strong enough to revisit her, take care of her. And I guess that's what I'm learning is that it is necessary to be as mentally healthy and personally developed as possible, which I go over.

Well, I find it interesting. I mean, there's like, yes, I want to get better at life and all that kind of stuff, but I also just find it interesting I find it, like, fascinating how old stories still run through the day. You know, it's just like, wow, I thought that was over. No.

You know, I grew up hearing a lot like, oh, get over it. You know, get over it. You're too sensitive. Move on. It's in the past. And I don't know, I can probably. A few people in my family were like that, you know, like, just get over it. And so I always thought it was weak to keep revisiting something from my past that may have hurt or not been understood wholly. So I haven't really looked in the rearview mirror. I haven't.

Right. So I think that, like, instead of thinking of it like a wound that needs to heal or something that's broken in you. Not that you said that, but a lot of people think this way. I think it's like. I like the word integrate because it's like this information is there, and I'm not quite understanding how it fits into my life now. So. So it's more like that. Like, you just get to have your whole self, and you get to own all of your childhood. And it's not necessarily that you have to go through all those dark little places. It's more, you know what? Like, something happened between eighth and ninth grade. Something happened, and I want to. I want to understand who I was when I was doing debate. I want to understand who that was. And, like. And then I want to understand, like, why did Sally mean so much to me at that point in time? Like, what else was going on in my life? Like, why did that. Why do I remember that event? And why did that have so much power? Why is that still playing out in my life? Because it seems like, rationally, not that big of a deal, but it's still there. Very much so. So it's more like just putting all the pieces back in and making sense out of the pieces. Like, you're missing chapters, and you don't understand your book, Right.

Yes.

So it's more like that. And I find it really fun. Hard, but fun.

I'm very curious about it. I think it's a little. Sometimes it can feel exhausting, and.

It.

Does something to me physically when I think about potentially going back to those moments, trying to figure out the chapters. You know what I mean? And so I think.

Tell me what happens physically.

Well, it's the same feeling. It's just sort of. It's almost like a feeling like I'm falling, maybe a loss of control.

Mm.

You know?

Yeah. And you're going back to. Obviously you're going back to a time where you felt out of control. You don't want to go back there. You don't want to look at that, but you do. To be able to put yourself back together in this way. Yes, yes, yes. You do need to do it. So you're welcome. No.

Hello.

So this is how you do it. There are a couple different things that you can do. You can work with a somatic therapist, and that's a person that actually helps you feel safe in your body. While you integrate stories, they're not just in the retelling of the story. Retelling of the story won't necessarily help you. You actually have to do something that connects the story to you in real time while you're breathing and sitting here, so that you can continue to feel safe in your body. Like, I could have told anybody anything that had happened to me, but I told it in this. Like, I dissociated to tell people what had happened to me. Like, and I didn't realize that's what was going on. Like, I became the head, and the head could tell the story. So that doesn't help. You need something that helps you be in your body while you feel fear or while chaos is happening or while you feel out of control and help you learn how to stay in that little scratched record part. So somatic therapists do that. EMDR will do that. I need a therapist that does emdr. And I mean, even doing ballet, working with horses. Find a couple dolphins and play with them. They do that, too. I'm sure you have some in your backyard. Totally easy. Find some dolphin therapy. But it is. It's like there's all kinds of different therapies that help you do that, help you learn how to be in your body. And so it doesn't mean, oh, my God, I have to go relive, like, the worst moments of my life. It's actually not bad. It's a different technique of learning just how to stay in yourself.

Well, EMDR has been recommended to me before, and I am about to begin that.

Okay.

Now that you've sort of even more so validated that, I think I definitely want to give that a go.

Yeah.

I've retold stories. I told stories. Da, da, da, da. And it's just nothing's fixing this.

Mm, mm.

Bigger issue that's helped. It's not where I'm becoming not functional in my everyday life, you know?

Right. And you're going to try. You're going to make your life smaller and smaller and Smaller to not have to touch this hotspot. And that's not.

I've already done that. I mentioned, you know, I passed up opportunities because it gave me more visibility.

Yeah, right.

That brings guilt and shame for passing up on that opportunity then. That's a whole.

Yeah. So the themes that I'm hearing is this is about wanting to control chaos and wanting control or make things more secure and more predictable. Which means that you focus on self and try to make self small and invisible. And I'm guessing that that was your tactic when you were little too.

Yes, that sounds. That all makes sense to me.

Yeah. And so, yeah, there is that little girl that you're going to have to protect and keep safe while you do these meetings. And then there is the adult you that's going to learn how to protect that little girl. Okay.

Okay.

I know it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. But it is really beautiful, I think, to think that there is this little girl in you still that needs help and you get to help her.

I love that actually. And I think it's time that I took care of her. Yeah.

Yeah.

Means a lot.

Yeah. David White, I love him. He's beautiful poet and he, he talks about, he's very, very self conscious and very shy and he actually has to be in front of people all the time. And he talks about going up on the podium and he always tells his little self, you can hide behind my legs before he goes and talks. And I think that's so sweet. Like, you know, he's like in his 60s and he's like, hide behind my legs.

I love hearing other people's stories like this that I can that show me that side of them. Because to me it looks like everyone around me is doing it and doing it well. And I'm like, what is that? Give me that. What are you doing? Like, fix me to be able to do that. And you know, there's not a quick fix, obviously, there's just some work to do.

Yeah. There's not a quick fix. Just imagine a little girl that's in that meeting with you and she is terrified. Like, how would you work with her? It's just like that or even, even like a little animal that was scared in that room. How would you work with that animal? There's lots of ways that you can help yourself realize what's happening and how much compassion you have to have.

Okay.

What's that feeling?

It's just I, I was thinking of my kids. I have a three to two Year old. And I would protect them, you know, I would die for them. And I think that I need to do that for myself.

Yes. Yes. You have a very clear understanding of what love looks like when you're looking at them. Right. And there is also that in you. That little. That little person that got frozen during whatever time. Is that sad? Because I see you trying to box up some feelings pretty hard right now. Yeah. You're allowed to feel feelings. It's okay.

Yeah.

That's what it feels like to come back home right there. What you just experienced, that whole rush of emotion that just came through you. That's the opposite of dissociating right there. That was coming back to yourself.

That feels good, actually.

Feels.

Feels okay.

It's okay. Yeah.

I gotta go find that little girl.

Yeah, yeah. She's there. She's there. Just don't push her to do anything that she doesn't want to do yet. Just go slow with her.

She doesn't want to be seen.

Not by them, but she desperately wants to be seen by you.

Yeah, I think that's what I'm feeling.

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

I had no idea this was going to be about that.

I didn't either. I never know where these are going, But there's a. Like, there's a real bright and goodness in you. You have done a lot of work and. And you can keep going. You're all right.

Yeah. And I want to.

Yeah, yeah. Do it for your kids. Do it for you. Do it for the better life. Do it for the little girl that's still with you into this. Let me know how it goes.

I go.

Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope that was helpful. I will be back next week with a whole new client to talk to. If you'd like to be a guest on the show and get advice from me, go to meadowdivore.com forward/getadvice to fill out the form. And it gives you bunches of topics that you can look at and see.

Oh, yeah.

To let you know what I'm looking for and what we're looking for for the team that's putting together this podcast. In the meantime, have a great, Great.