#156 Dr Alex Auerbach - Creating Healthy High-Performance Environments

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Welcome back to the Sports Psych show. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to be speaking with Dr. Alex Auerbach. Alex, welcome to the sports site show.

Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here.

Hey, so cool to have you on. We've been trying, we've been trying for a few months now, haven't we?

Yes, Covid seasons moving several obstacles to making it happen. But I'm glad we finally lined it up.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Why don't we get started by getting you introduced to the sports site show audience.

Yeah. Awesome. So I'm Alex Auerbach. I'm the director of Wellness and development for the Toronto Raptors and in my current role I'm really responsible for all things mental health, mental performance and off court development for our players and a bit for our staff as well. You know, we're really as an organization moving to a place of trying to incorporate wellness and holistic health and everything we do and obviously creating a healthier staff and a high functioning staff, supporting the staff makes for better experiences for our players players and happier, healthier, higher performing players. Prior to joining the Raptors, I was the director of Clinical and sports Psychology services at the University of Arizona. So spent a couple years there and really enjoyed my time in the collegiate space working with some high level collegiate student athletes and then before that sort of bounced around graduate school and completed my my internship in North Carolina, did my doctoral studies at University of North Texas, one of the few sports like programs in the states. And before I became a psychologist I was a college football coach. And so I've been around a little bit in elite sport but have really just enjoyed the environment and the opportunity to be involved with a dynamic group of people, people who are competitive and so I'm glad I get to show up like that every day at work now and continue to help make the NBA and the Raptors a fun and thriving place to be.

You've navigated your way across North America then, mate?

I sure have. I've done Arizona, Texas, North Carolina, Rhode Island, Canada. It's a bit of moving around, but it's been fun.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up, I was born in Phoenix, moved to Tucson where University of Arizona is when I was about 8 years old. So Tucson is true home where I've spent most of my time, but have found that basically everywhere I've lived becomes home after long enough. So I claim several states now but but Arizona will always sort of be.

Number one multi state national. So growing up did you play competitive football and. And obviously will affirm that that's American football?

Yeah. So the short answer is no, not really.

Really.

I grew up actually playing soccer and. And was really enjoyed that, but got to a point of burnout, honestly around 9th or 10th grade. Just was involved in several teams, was fairly competitive actually, as a soccer player, and just found myself not really enjoying it anymore. So I actually pivoted to Australian Rules football for a season and played with a good friend and just kind of enjoyed that and did something different. And then right after my sophomore year of high school, actually, my family moved to the east coast. And so at that point I sort of stopped playing competitive sport in a really organized way. You know, played pickup here and there and was involved with friends games on weekends and things like that. And did my. Ultimately did my senior project actually for high school on coaching. And that was really how I got into it. Was just fascinated with the strategy side of things, but also fascinated a bit with the development side of things. And how do we help players, you know, reach their full potential and cope with ultimately the end for many people of a significant part of their life. You know, when you graduate high school, it's a very, very small percentage of folks who are going on to play college sport at a high level. And so I was just interested in what the coach's role was in all of that. You know, managing a whole program, navigating, not only preparing players to perform, but preparing players for sort of life after sport a little bit, especially at a still fairly young age. But a significant piece of a lot of folks identities, certainly my own when I stopped playing. And so that was really how I got into coaching and then just decided to go to college, honestly, at the one place where they'd allow me to work with the football program. So I loved my senior project. And then University of Arizona was kind enough to let me jump on board with their football program, first working in recruiting and then doing some work on the offensive side of the ball and then on the defensive side of the ball. And so it was really not until my junior senior year of high school and then through college, where I really got deep into American football. Football, yeah.

Just taking a couple of steps back and dwelling on the burnout piece. When you reflect back, what was the cause of the burnout? Was that something to do with the coaching you experienced, or was that just you being overzealous, over enthusiastic and playing all the time?

Probably a bit of both. You know, I certainly. I had a very intense coach growing up. A gentleman who had moved from Italy, had competed at the, I think the second level in Italian soccer, was obviously a very talented person. But had I, I think, looking back, a bit of extreme expectations for young athletes. And so practice was always very intense. The dynamic was what I would describe as maybe overly competitive. I'm all for a healthy competition and pushing each other to grow and learn and develop, but not so much the sort of pitting people against one another to see who comes out on top. And so I think that was a big part of it. There was a part of playing with, you know, on multiple teams where it was just finding that there were other things I was interested in that I wasn't getting the opportunity to dedicate so much time to. And then certainly, you know, just a bit of my own kind of playing a bunch of soccer for a really long time and then just kind of deciding there was, it was time for something new at a young age, a.

Little bit of early, early seriousness and early professionalization.

Yes, yes. I'm a great case study in why that may not work.

And so then moving on. So, wow. Aussie Rules football in Arizona. Interesting. And then moving on to football. So I'm taking it throughout your teenage years you were a fan of NFL, that you were sort of building your knowledge around the game that enabled you to then become a coach in the game. Would that be, would I be correct in saying that?

Yeah, I mean, I, I grew up certainly a football fan. Both of my, my folks went to universities where the football tradition is strong. And so I grew up, you know, watching and paying attention and dealing the familial, dealing with familial conflict around the Big Ten and then got really into the NFL. But it wasn't probably until my, my first year of university myself, where I really got into it and had the opportunity to learn from some really high level coaches who are willing to spend extra time with me, sort of walking through the strategy and the logistics of the game. I mean, there's certainly one level of fandom where you start to learn something, but then being really in it and seeing how it all works together, understanding the strategy a bit more didn't really come together for me until that first year at university, but my fascination had really been with the strategy side of things before that, you know, I was really interested in why do coaches make the decisions that they do, how do they make the decisions around, you know, even what play to call or how they manage, you know, the time constraints of the game and what time does in terms of Changing decision making or what pressure does in terms of changing decision making. So I started to just get really into that because I think football, at least at that point was a very different strategic game from soccer. You know, soccer is a very fluid and sort of ongoing sport and football has these starts and stops where you get the chance to reset and really think. And I think that happens a lot in soccer too, but it happens differently. And so I just honestly read the book, thinking fast and slow and then I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting in a sport context. I wonder where that plays out the most. And then really gravitated toward football and then all of a sudden found myself, you know, really invested in the NFL, college football, trying to understand the decision making, the creativity and the pressure that coaches face.

Really interesting. So it strikes me therefore that if you didn't have much pushback from those coaches, they were quite open minded because quite often you'll find coaches like other coaches that they're working with to have a deep knowledge or deep experience of the sport that they're coaching in. Did you. So were your coaches quite open minded in that respect?

Yeah, I think there was, you know, there was certainly a part of me that was adding value in other areas where I could help earlier on. And so I think that created a bit of that openness. And as you know, from being around elite sport there, there is a bit of just needing to be around and be available and do some of the what people might describe as grunt work to really get in and be a part of the system. But then once you're a part of it, it's a really tight knit family and it can become a little bit more of a safe space, if you will, to talk about what you don't know and to ask those questions. And certainly a tremendous amount of credit to that staff for being willing to take on a young 18 year old me who just wanted to get involved and learn something. And so I'd like to think I added some value on the recruiting front that allowed for that to happen. But yes, there was some openness there. And then I think it was probably a couple years in I actually started to add what I would say is at least real value on the coaching side of things in terms of preparation, working with the other graduate assistants, working with some of the coaches, just trying to understand a bit of what it is they do and help prepare players however I could at that point, you know, so it's kind of a bit more of a hands on experience which was, was fun.

You mentioned essentially being fascinated by strategy and a coach of strategy or a scholar of football strategy these days, as a sports psychologist, you're essentially a coach of people. One can argue all coaches are coaches of people, but I'm assuming, therefore there was a little bit of a shift there that you moved away from a fascination around the strategical side of football onto the people side of football.

Yeah, so when I graduated university, actually took a full time coaching job at the University of Rhode island, which is a smaller FCS in the state's university, and we were a decently competitive football program for the year that I was there. But I was still very young. I was 21. I graduated college a bit early, and so I still enjoyed the strategy and tactics side of things. But in my role there, certainly as a younger coach, I found that I was often in the position of supporting our players with other things happening away from the game. Whether that was because I could relate to them a bit more or because that was being the young coach and the older coaches may not have wanted to deal with that anymore, which I think is fair. Fair. I found myself in that position a lot. And then what happened for me was I really resonated with the relationship building side of coaching. I really found that to actually be more appealing. And I had certainly had some of that at University of Arizona. You know, I had some of the players come talk to me about what was going on in their life more as a peer, but obviously didn't have anywhere near the training I have now to really support that. And then when it happened again at Rhode island, it was like, huh, this is kind of a, a significant piece of what happens in this whole sporting thing. And yeah, the decision making and strategy stuff is interesting, but you know, gosh, if this player can't figure out how to even stay eligible academically or has so many other things happening off the field, you know, the strategy and tactics matter, but they're a bit less impactful if the player can't even pay attention in practice because of what's going on away from the game. And so I really started to gravitate toward that and found that that was where I could make the most impact. You know, I didn't quite identify with some of the other pieces of coaching so much, but really identified with the relationship building side of things and then started to explore, okay, how do I take that relationship building aspect of coaching and translate that to being the core of what I do professionally? And that was how I ended up as a psychologist. That's the that's the short version of it.

Our backgrounds, whilst not exactly similar, have some parallels. I always say to people that probably the most profound experience I've had in my development as a sports psychologist, whilst my degree and my master's degree were fantastic, I would still say coaching golf was for two reasons. Firstly, because, you know, as a golf coach I was coaching for 40 hours a week. It's, you know, it's one of those sports where you're non stop coach coaching because you're making your living by the half hour or the hour basically and you're seeing so many different people, different ages, different levels, different personalities, different types of people from different backgrounds. And, and, and so you, your, I suppose your people skills become sharpened, they become better and, and also the other side of it, Alex, I find when I reflect back is I as a coach of golf I grew a strong appreciation of and a fascination with the technical side of not just golf, but sport. Building an eye for the technical detail again of golf, but also of sport in general. And so now as a sports psychologist, that's enabled me not just to build my people skills to understand people a little bit better, but also to understand sport from a technical perspective. That's how I think my coaching background heavily influenced and hopefully positively influenced my capacity to be a sports psychologist today. How do you think your coaching background has influenced your ability or capability as a sports psych these days?

That's really interesting to hear, Dan. I would be fascinated to learn a bit more about what you've picked up on the technical side and how you've maybe translated that to some of the other sports you've worked in. I think I have some of that. I might be a little bit less technically savvy than you are. I think for me, where it's probably made the biggest difference has been understanding the coaches I work with and to a degree understanding the executives I work with. There's a bit of similarity, I think, between front office work and coach work, but obviously the roles and responsibilities and pressures and timing of season and all that stuff affects things a bit differently. But certainly having the ability to appreciate what it's like to wake up incredibly early, work really, really long days with no vacation, understand what it's like to miss family events, you know, understanding the pressure that coaches really face when things are not going well. I have that experience too. And so it does leave me with a bit more compassion for those who are navigating the coaching profession. And it helps me to understand how I can position the work that I do as being complimentary to the work that coaches do. I think often there's some skepticism of sports psychology in terms of what it means that we're going to be doing with the athletes and are we supporting the coaches? Are we not supporting the coaches? Are we helping move the program forward? Are we just there for the athletes to, quote, unquote, complain about whatever is going on? And what I found is there really is a way to position what we do as being in service of the same things the coaches are looking for and the whole organization is looking for. But having that deep understanding of coaching, I think helps me do that. And then I think there is part of me, like I said, that maybe picks up a bit more of the technical stuff, although I'm certainly still very early in the process of understanding the technical side of basketball. But from a football perspective, there's a bit of interest in that as well, for sure.

As you were, you know, as you were speaking earlier and talking about the early interest in the strategical side of, of American football, I always think it's an, an advantage to a sports psychologist to have that interest. I mean, so many sports psychs, as you well know, have a, have a strong either playing background or have some kind of coaching experience. So we're hardly two people who are set apart from our peers. But I would imagine that your interest in the strategical, historically, your interest in the strategical side of the game allows you to broaden your lens of the sport you're working in as well as the interactions you're having with coaches, because you can appreciate the sport from a different lens. Because I think maybe sometimes, maybe, hey, I can be guilty of this is as sports sites we're always looking for through a psychosocial or biopsychosocial lens. But we've got to remember that there are other components and there's the integration between them and having that interest, whether it's the technical or strategical or the tactical or whatever. But the physical side, that's got to be to one's advantage to be able to integrate that psychosocial piece into the other areas.

Yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. I mean, it influences all the conversations I have in the organization because there is, you know, like you said, there's more going on than just the biopsychosocial piece. And while I see that as central to successful athletic performance, I do think you have to appreciate the demands that other people are facing and what they're trying to accomplish. And it does make for Also more dynamic dialogue with some of the players that I've had the chance to work with because that's also a side of the game that they're interested in. That's a part of what they're trying to figure out and understand and just to have somebody else that they can come talk to who may not, you know, certainly understand the game with the same depth that they do, but knows enough to be dangerous is what I like to say. Right. Can ask the right question or can, can push a little bit and think about some of those things. And it doesn't mean that I have to, you know, fully step into the strategic space. I'm always trying to redirect anyone I'm working with back to the expert in that regard. But having a bit of that interest and thinking a bit about it, you know, does provide a little bit of a different perspective and allows me to sort of play that out a little bit to understand a bit more of, you know, what, well, what might have that coach been thinking when they, you know, ran that drill in practice? Or what might have we been working on when we made this decision in the game? Or what were we thinking about long term knowing in the NBA there's 82 games. So not every decision we make right now has to do with right now, you know, and thinking through those things allows me then to, you know, better serve everyone I work with, really. And it's a, it's a fun place to learn and grow. You know, it's, it is interesting to learn more about basketball. It is interesting to learn more about the sport we're working with and continue to try to improve myself and grow myself in some area too.

It's interesting because as you were speaking there, it was making me think that it's not necessarily essential to have a deep knowledge of their sport and perhaps that's just not possible. But it does reassure players, people that you're working with. If you have a deep interest in and a deep knowledge of sport and those components within sport, the tactical, technical and physical components, and a general appreciation and feeling of what they're going to through, you might have a background in American football, NFL. And when you go onto the basketball court, at least those players, they know that you've been in a sporting space. They know you've had those, those conversations with good players around, you know, not just the psychological side of, of, of say, football, but also, you know, the, the technical and the strategical side. So you, you know, you've, you've got knowledge of sport, you've got an understanding and a feel for the game.

Exactly right. Yeah. I think having an understanding of elite sport, competitive sport, the dynamics of competition, the pressures, you know, the impact of things like social media, the impact of things like travel, sleep on performance, having a bit of knowledge of those dynamics goes a long way. And then I think the other thing you make me think of is, you know, I believe that people really enjoy talking about something that they know a lot about. And so what I found is not knowing so much about basketball creates an opportunity for me to be really curious about the more intimate and deeper parts of the game. And it becomes a way to build a great relationship with people because they enjoy talking about something that they love. And it's exciting for me to hear about that and then be able to, like you say, overlay some of my past experience onto that and find the places of connection, find the pieces where, you know, basketball may be similar to the NFL. Right. Like, there is a, an incredibly high amount of pressure on these athletes they're dealing with. Certainly today's athlete, I think, is dealing with a lot more than, you know, past athletes in terms of social media and the content, constant news cycle and some of those things. And so at least having an understanding of what that's like and all that goes into preparing to be a high level competitive athlete for a game. Although I've never done it prior to this role in basketball, I have that experience that allows me to, you know, say, oh, it kind of reminds me of this and what about that? And facilitate some of that dialogue while I'm, I'm having the opportunity to learn about something they love. So it's kind of a cool experience for me in that way. And it's, it's been really fun to see. There are some parallels between football and basketball too, strategically and conceptually that I think is interesting. The use of space and how people use things like screens or movement. There is some of that too. That allows me to, like I said, know enough to be dangerous to ask a couple good questions and then really start to unpack more of obviously what's, what's working for our players or not working, working for our players.

Just one more question about your experiences in football. American football at the college level. You alluded earlier to any, to a bit of skepticism out there, a bit of pushback. I mean, was there much pushback throughout your college sports psychology career from American football teams, coaches, players, departments?

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I guess for me, I sort of saw an evolution over the time. I Worked as a sports psychologist or a sports psychology consultant with football programs. So the first football program I worked with there was a bit of keeping me at arm's length. I would say it was sort of like, we're intrigued by this, but we're not sure that we want this to be central to what we do. Different coaches found different levels of value in talking about things like leadership, or working with the players on mental skills, or talking about the culture of the team. And then other coaches had their past experience and felt like they really had everything that they needed to go. What I found was, and I found this at several places, for better or worse. Unfortunately, that crisis really tends to be the place where things turn. That's been where I've found that, you know, a sports psychologist can add some real value. Even if you're not delivering the intervention yourself. If you're facilitating, all of a sudden, being the person that can actually help facilitate in some way in those moments can be, can be pretty impactful. So I think that was my early sports psych experience. And then what I found as I sort of went through graduate school, started working with other football programs, took full time roles, and was at a university level as a sports psychologist. There was also sort of in parallel a really massive rise in mental health concerns on college campuses. And so as that happened, I found more and more football programs and coaches were interested in really the mental health aspect of what it is a sports psychologist can provide. And so, you know, I think there was the mental health almost became a bit of a gateway to the mental skills and some of the other things we could do. But managing mental health and the stresses of being a college student I think was a primary focus of a lot of the coaching staffs, football coaching staffs I had been around or worked with, and similarly found that crisis kind of facilitated or expedited the growth of the relationship and the interest in the other things that we could do as practitioners. But I do think, certainly with what the NFL has done in the last couple of years and the way that the NCAA has moved to make sports psychology accessible for student athletes, and I think we're probably in a place hopefully where it's more of the latter, there's more of an interest in what we do and how we can prevent and mental health concerns and what else we can do away from mental health. You know, obviously that's a critical part of what goes on to helping people perform and thrive. But it's not the only thing we can do. And I think that's starting to happen now. But certainly early on in my training we weren't quite to that point point yet and there was a bit more skepticism there for sure.

So whilst we might voice frustration around our involvement being driven by cure rather than prevention, actually what you're saying is that can provide an in into the. The culture and the team and the coaching staff.

Yeah, I think, I mean I'm. I would prefer to prevent than cure.

But.

I think the. There is a reality that that's a. I think that's a unique value add that we have as sports psychologists. I think, I don't always believe that we have to be the person that has, I guess the answer, if you will, or has the ability to deliver the service. I really believe that there's value in being a person that knows how to connect to people who may be able to help if you are not the person who can help. And I think what you do is you broaden a program or coaches network, you become a place of support. Support, you know, and even for coaches who are trying to figure out how they support their student athletes, being able to offer some comfort around supporting the student athletes, but also offer some comfort to them in terms of how they're managing, working with their student athletes, I actually believe that that's a place we can add real value. And I do think certainly in the, in the US at the college level, coaches are placing an increasing amount of value on prevention. But there's been for, for several years, I think a real interest in what is the. How do we contribute to the cure, as you said, Because I think that's a place where they've seen their own players and student athletes struggle and know that that's a place where someone else has to offer some support. And so I do think there's real value there, although there, like you said, and like I firmly believe the prevention would be a bit better.

You've mentioned the mental health piece and I'm sure we'll go on to talk more about this and we're both passionate about this area and as we're recording now, it's the Olympic games and there's been a lot of attention on mental health, not least because of the experience of Simone Biles. But I know that there's been some fantastic work done and again you've mentioned this a couple of minutes ago in the NFL, and I correct me if I'm wrong, but in the NBA around franchises having to have some form of mental health support. However, Alex, do you think there is a possibility and I think that's wonderful and it's brilliant and it's absolutely necessary. And the narrative that's taking place right now is a welcome change, if not a paradigm, a potential paradigm shift. Do you think there's the potential, however, for the mental health piece to engulf and drown out the mental skills piece, which still offers an important element, especially around the performance psychology area?

I think the short answer is yes. Right. I think that's always a bit of a risk. And I think there's. The mba, like you said, has done an incredible job of, at the league level of sort of helping organizations tease apart and understand the different dimensions of mental health and mental performance. And I think that's a really important place to start. I think organizationally people come to our space with preconceived notions about what it is we can do and preconceived notions about what's most valuable. And I think that that often drives a bit of what takes the lead, if you will, if it's, if it's mental skills or mental health. Honestly, from my own experience, I found it incredibly difficult to tease apart the two and decide which is which. You know, I think there is certainly an opportunity for high level athletes to spend time purely on optimizing for performance. But obviously, as I'm sure you've, you've seen in your experience, performance is really deeply personal to these, these players. And to think that, you know, a poor performance wouldn't lead to some distress and difficulty off the court, I think is, you know, important dynamic to understand and then to understand that what goes on away from the court is likely to show up. I know there's a real hope that we can cross the line and somehow once we step onto the playing surface, everything else just drowns out. And there certainly are players who have that really elite skill of being able to just, you know, shut it off and turn it on. But by and large, I think it's incredibly challenging to do that. And I would argue that even if you have that shut it off, turn it on skill, that sort of psychological load and the strain that you've carried from off the court stuff is still going to show up a bit on the court. The same way that we think about flying overnight as part of the physical load, dealing with issues at home, I think is part of the mental or psychological load. And it's really hard to tease that apart and say, well, this is purely mental skills or this is purely mental health. And certainly there are cases where that's a bit clearer, but I think that's I'm, you know, progressively finding more and more that that separation is. Is challenging. That being said, I think the MBA and the materials they produce and the way they've started to talk about things has been really sophisticated in, you know, helping differentiate and showcasing the value of both, you know, and what I've found personally is that you can sort of pick which side people resonate with most, and that becomes sort of the gateway into whatever you need to get to. But there's a benefit to being able to do both, I think.

We can linguistically and conceptually separate them, but we can also linguistically and conceptually integrate them. They're happening at the same time. You were a soccer player. You played Aussie Rules Football in Arizona, which I still can't get over, which is great.

You.

You really majored, if you like, in American football at college and worked primarily in that sport. And there definitely would have been basketball teams within the universities, the colleges that you worked in, but it sounds to me like you hadn't had much experience within basketball. So you walked into the Toronto Raptors building with this new challenge. How did that feel, walking into that building for the first time day. The first few weeks? And what was your perception of the specific challenges you faced as somebody who hadn't worked so much in basketball, let alone the NBA?

Yeah, it was intimidating, to be honest. I mean, I was very, very, very nervous for the first several days and weeks. And. And I would describe myself, probably looking back as. As a bit cautious in terms of how I was navigating the organization and trying to understand the dynamics of basketball. And certainly, you know, the NFL and NBA are a bit different culturally in terms of how they operate. There are different demands on the performers, you know, and there's different levels of sort of knowledge of the players, I think, as a function of wearing a helmet versus not wearing a helmet. Large roster versus small roster. And I'm trying to figure out all these different dynamics and, you know, draw parallels while I can and draw differences where I can. And I think my biggest challenges moving in were trying to establish some level of credibility. I mean, I think not knowing anything about basketball, I was really fortunate to have a leadership team, an executive team that said, well, we know you don't really know, but it was clear when you interviewed that you wanted to learn. And so I tried to really lean into that and leverage that for my own sort of. Of relationship building, for my own sense of establishing some credibility. And there were times where I felt very, very lost. And certainly joining, you know, 11 days before COVID hit and the season shut down, that that was an interesting way of onboarding to a new organization and trying to figure out how to make a difference. And I was fortunate to have an opportunity to lead sort of a staff wide presentation on coping with COVID And that was my introduction to the staff that I think helped. But then, you know, obviously once I spent more time around the players, I think there is just a reality that understanding something about basketball and the dynamics of being an elite NBA player does matter. And so that. That was probably my biggest challenge, was finding ways to tap into that, to learn a bit more, to build those relationships and simultaneously start to offer some value and add some value there. And what I found was in the feedback I've been given, I'm very thankful for the. The players and staff who are willing to share a bit more with me about what would help. You know, what I learned was that the consistency and how I showed up really made a difference. And so I'm thankful that I managed to at least show up and be the same person every day without being too overwhelmed. But there was definitely a sense of that.

What do you mean? Sorry, Alex. What do you mean by that, the consistency? What did they want to, if you don't mind me asking this question, they want to see from you.

I think they liked what they saw. And what I mean by the consistency is there was a sense that no matter what happened in practice or at the game, that they knew what they were going to get when they saw me. They knew they were going to be greeted with, you know, a hello, people. I was going to constantly ask how they were doing. I was going to be the same person every day whether we won or lost. And that was really, I think, the piece that started to be most well received. And as I'm sure you know, from being around elite sport, know, sometimes a couple difficult days in a row can really change the dynamics of how the whole organization moves and feels. And so to be a person that I think people felt like they could rely on to sort of be the same and to be authentic every day, I think really made a big difference.

So does that mean. Sorry, Alex. I just think this is really curious because I just think the dynamic behind the scenes at these top NBA, English, Premier League, NFL clubs, a lot of people don't get the opportunity to experience them. And the emotional temperature of these organizations is critical. And so your behaviors as a member of staff is crucial. So what you're giving us here is absolutely fascinating. They wanted consistency. So it sounds to me, like, they wanted you to kind of be a bit result agnostic. They didn't necessarily want you to be too high or too low consistency. Would I be correct in saying that? And with that, is that not difficult? Because if they do lose a couple of games, my experience is possibly that the organization becomes a little bit flat as a consequence, and it's very difficult to therefore behave as somebody who is result agnostic. It's much easier to join in with the behaviors that you're seeing around you.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting way of describing it. I guess there's a part of it that feels result agnostic that I think was important, you know, was. Was being a person that was clearly separated from the decisions made. You know, I'm not deciding anyone's playing time. I'm not deciding, you know, where people sit on the bench or any of those things. And. And so there was that sort of level of being, I guess, one degree removed from the final outcome that I think was important. I think there was also a part of it where I learned to care about the result because it mattered for the people I care about, but to not allow that result to change the way I treated the people. And certainly it's challenging to show up when the emotion, you know, emotional temperature varies. I'm incredibly fortunate, actually. We have a really, really talented coaching staff and front office that is incredibly deep in their perspective around these things. And so it's actually, at times, I think, you know, for me at least, it was a bit like, whoa, this is really interesting to see that these people don't necessarily live and die with each result. But for the players who maybe are a bit younger, who are trying to establish themselves, who have different sets of pressures, who hear different things from media and fans, I think that it's a little bit tougher to sort of stay that big perspective on everything. And I think the performance feels, you know, really personal to them, too. And so there was this. This element of needing to meet them where they are and be in that space with them and share some of that sort of, you know, emotional challenge around the performance of the team at times when. When it wasn't quite going the way that we wanted it to. But then I think there was value in sort of them knowing that, hey, no matter what happens, like, this person is here to support me, this person cares about me as a human being and isn't going to only come to me about what's happened on the court, right? Is going to come to me and talk to me about what else is going on, be willing to listen to that, be curious about that and be willing to facilitate my improvement in any domain. I think that's sort of the consistent that they were looking for from me.

Gotcha. Gotcha. You said something interesting there about the coaching stuff and again, I'm going to be very respectful around your necessities of confidentiality, but you mentioned a coaching staff who would, and I'll paraphrase you here, but look deep into the process if you like, rather than necessarily ride that wave of, of emotion. What I'm hearing there. We use the jargon term, don't we Alex? A motivational climate. And maybe what I'm hearing is a, a task orientation over or process orientation over, an ego orientation. So much more self referenced rather than other referenced, much more aligned towards mastery rather than overly engaged in performance and outcome or overly invested from an emotional perspective. No question there. Because again, I respect what you can and can't say, but maybe any kind of comment would be wonderful.

Yeah, I think that's spot on. I mean, I think that's who we are and that's what we value and I think what we, our coaches have a tremendous amount of experience and so my guess is have, have sort of experimented themselves with what works well and what doesn't work so well. But culturally, you know, we do really value helping people grow and develop and that growth and mastery is central to the way we've defined what it means to be a Toronto Raptor for several years. You know, there's a high amount of regard for our player development system and the players that we have developed as part of the Raptors organization. And I think that does boil back down to creating a climate where growth and challenge and failure is all sort of part of the journey and not a reflection of a human being where there's a, you know, progressive interest in staying in the moment and staying true to what we need to do to win without worrying so much about what everybody else is doing. And maybe some of that's facilitated by an international border. But I think honestly it's, you know, really a core tenet of who we are. And I think that's a testament to the coaches who have really worked hard to make sure that that's a part of how they talk to the players, how they interact with each other, how they interact with the whole staff broadly, is really making sure that we're facilitating a place that the players feel like, you know, one they can show up and be authentic that it's okay for them. To struggle as long as they're learning to grow and develop and that we're going to stay, you know, consistent with what we need to do to be successful with again, without worrying every single day or every other day about the outcome. And you know, of course the outcome does matter, right? There is a record and there is, you know, a desire to make the playoffs and postseason and all of those things as a real part of what we do. But our staff has been very good at staying true to, you know, again, not getting too high or too low based on that one outcome and really staying true to here's where we are now, here's what we can do to improve in the future and let's just go get the next one.

Would you say that your experience at the Raptors that you've just described would be typical of a coaching unit or coaching approach or cultural approach across North America? Or do you think that what you're dealing with quite an accomplished organization there?

I'm honored to say I think we're dealing with an accomplished organization going to say, yeah, yeah, I think I, I think there is interest across North America and creating that kind of environment. And I think what's happened, unfortunately, I know you and I both are friends with Cody Royal who's talked a bit about this, but what's happened is there's so much pressure to get results immediately and relatively less investment in actually creating a cost culture and developing a program across North American sport broadly that I think it's really hard to create that culture. I think it's really hard to create a mastery oriented climate when, you know, I think it's the average NBA coach has a little over a year tenure or two years tenure. I mean, it's really, really hard when you've got to get results right now. And I think the NFL is similar and I'm imagining NHL and Major League Baseball are probably in the same ballpark and certainly I'm sure in the EPL and elite soccer in Europe that's the same case. And so I do think there's an interest in creating those kinds of cultures because I think the research certainly supports that developing more of a mastery oriented climate is likely to facilitate the long term outcomes that coaches and organizations are looking for. But to get there requires patience. And I think it also requires a bit of undoing. Unfortunately, some of the coaching and experience that's gone on before, before they've gotten to this elite level. Because you can't only fix it in pro sport. You can't only extend the Runway for coaches in pro sport, you've got to then extend the Runway in college sports so that college coaches can facilitate a more mastery oriented climate. And you know, players may be there for as little as one year, as many as four years in basketball, but coaches still may only get two or three years before, you know, they're asked to really demonstrate results on the floor, floor. And I think that pressure does ultimately push toward more of that ego driven, performance oriented climate. And I think it's really, really tough to get out of that when ultimately your career hinges on outcomes and not on developing the best players or the best prospects or the best people over the long term.

There's also an element, Alex, at least I've found this or experienced this in organizations, clubs, teams, that you've got to sell the notion of a mastery orientation, a task focus to the players as well, because every single player is going to arrive with a different lens and there's definitely going to be some who actually feed off extrinsic motivation, possibly more than than others are more oriented towards building a language around gotta win, gotta win, gotta win, gotta perform, gotta perform. I thrive off achievement, I thrive off beating the next person or beating our opponents. And so actually there's a degree of being a great salesman as well with regard that. Or saleswoman with regard that as well.

Yeah, I agree, I agree. I think there are players who are motivated by that and, and you do have to sort of pitch staying task focused and progressing toward mastery and not judging all the results at every moment and sort of staying consistent in your practice and focused on challenge and overcoming challenge and not so focused on wins, losses. You know, there certainly are athletes that are wired that way. And I think what I found is that, you know, a good degree of both is okay. Right? It's okay to have a bit of that performance orientation that can be motivating, that can allow for some players to really find what gets them going and engaged in sport. But if it's only that or if it's really over indexed on that performance orientation, it's very, very hard to get to a place of that, you know, accepting the growth and development, accepting the failures, accepting the losses and it's, you know, leads to all those behaviors that ultimately don't facilitate the growth of the players we're trying to work with. Right. So it leads to that withdrawal or avoiding the challenge. It leads to challenging narratives about who I am as a person or who I am as a player. And so I think, you know, it's sometimes tapping into that side of it a little bit and sort of highlighting how those performance oriented beliefs and attitudes may sometimes help and sometimes hinder, I think is an important way of thinking about it. And I think showcasing then where the mastery climate and the mastery orientation can supplement some of that belief, I think is really important.

I've always found that close relatives, from an environmental perspective to a mastery climate, a mastery orientation includes a psychologically informed environment. So caring greatly about the thoughts, feelings, personalities and experiences of the people within your organization, combined with psychological safety, giving players the opportunity to participate perhaps within the decision making, but also vulnerability, allowing players to express vulnerability again, no question. Would that resonate with you. I mean, everything you've said so far, I mean, we've honed in on the mastery orientation, the mastery climate, but it sounds like it's very much a pious, psychologically informed environment there and that there is space for vulnerability. Psychological safety is something that's embraced at the Raptors.

I think so. I think so. And you know, I borrowed that concept of psychologically informed environment from you, from, from listening to your podcast and hearing you frame the way that you think about culture. I think that that's really important. And so like you're saying, the caring and the psychological safety. Safety are critical to what we do. They're critical to how we reflect on our past performance and how we reflect on the decisions we've made. It's critical to how our players feel like they can show up and staff feels like they can show up. And I would take it for us, you know, a step further than those two elements at times and say, you know, we're also then trying to, based on what we know of creating healthy cultures, high performing cultures, the influence, influence of environment on behavior, trying to then also extend, you know, beyond those two pillars and really think about all the other places where the environment has a massive influence over what it is we do and how we show up. And so I think those two elements that, that carrying really deeply in psychological safety are sort of foundational in, in what we do. And then there's also these pieces of, you know, the interpersonal dynamics that we've got to tap into a bit. That, that may not, it may not be always easy, I guess, to get people to that space, but thinking about how we treat each other and maybe you can tap that into psychological safety, I see that as somewhat similar and somewhat different, you know, and I think that's a huge piece of what we believe in. I think being thoughtful about even things like structure and order and what that means for how people navigate ambiguity and uncertainty I think is critical. And so we've, I've tried to extend your concept a bit and make it my own as much as I can because I think it's, it's foundational to creating a high performing organization. I just don't think that you can get to really consistent elite performance without factoring in the biopsychosocial factors and just really over overdoing it on, on practice and sport performance. I don't think you can get there.

Yeah, I agree. Absolutely fascinating, Alex. And, and I'd like to, to finish our conversation for next last few minutes. Coming onto the court, I'm, you know, performance psychology is, is. It sounds ridiculous to say it's a passion of mine because I'm a sports psychologist, but you know, there are plenty of sports psychologists who have passion, more of a passion around the mental health and wellbeing piece than the performance psychology piece. So I think it's fair to say that. But I think that psychological dynamic on the court, or the course or the pitch the field is fascinating. Let's start with a broad question. When you're watching the Raptors play, is there anything specific you're looking at or looking for?

Yeah, to be honest, at first I didn't know what I was looking for. You know, I was just sort of trying to process the game a bit and see how things ebb and flow and I've sort of narrowed in a bit. So I think now what I find myself looking for is what does the communication look like between players on the floor, between coaches and players? What does our leadership look like on the floor? What is our focus and attention on how do we perform in what I would describe as more, you know, clutch moments, if you will, you know, the end of the first half, end of the second half, you know, when we're in sort of a tight game, what does that look like and how do players and people respond? Because it's not for me. I'm trying to not only watch the, the players on the floor, I know that that's where the attention and interest is and that's ultimately where the magic happens, so to speak. But I do believe that how other people around the players are reacting in those moments does have a bit of an impact, especially if that player happens to, say, look over at a staff member who has their head, you know, high and they're cheering on, like that can make a difference in how that player feels in that moment. And so I'm trying to sort of pay attention to those dynamics as well. So that's been one place, I think another place I've found myself thinking a lot about is, you know, what happens when a player goes to the bench or comes off the bench. I think is. Is an interesting dynamic, you know, I think. And that's somewhat similar to, say, American football, but a little bit different perhaps from baseball or epl, where, you know, you get subbed on and now you're here and it's unlikely you're going to come off again. And if you come off, you're kind of done. You know, we have a lot of back and forth and so what does it look like to transition to being off the floor? To transition. Being back on the floor, I think is a really interesting dynamic. And what does it look like to get sort of back into the game, if you will. But what I mean by that is, you know, what does it mean to be come back on the floor? How quickly can you get present with what's going on? How quickly can you integrate with your teammates and. And get into the flow of the game, you know, refocus on what's happening now? Because I do think there's an element of needing to get, you know, fully immersed in the game. I don't know that you can have that experience just watching. And then I think maybe the final dimension I've started to really focus on is what happens after a mistake is made, you know, and how long does it take to recreate, recover from that particular mistake? Is this something where, you know, a player can engage in a bit of a reset and refocus and they're ready to go right away? Or does it end up sort of compounding into several mistakes? And what does that mean for how we then support that player, intervene, you know, work around mental skills. So those are the things I've really paid a lot of attention to as I've gotten more sophisticated in my understanding of basketball. And I'm sure there's probably more I can hone in on, but that's the stuff that I'm really into right now. And then I think where I see myself going next is, you know, there's a lot of research out there supporting, like, the idea of scanning and how frequently players scan and what that means for how they understand, you know, the floor and spacing and their ability to anticipate and predict. And so that's. That's an element that I'd like to find a way to pay more attention to. Admittedly, it's hard for me. I still, I think, watch a bit Like a fan, where I sort of like following where, where the ball is and what's going on. And, and what I found is that to really get the most out of observing, you've got to stay on one guy, whether he has the ball or doesn't have the ball, our player or opponent, you know, it's kind of the same. And so I'd like to get to that point. And I'm training myself as hard as.

I can to get there, I think in basketball. And I'm very green when it comes to basketball. I've worked with a few individual players, but not worked with a basketball team as such. It is fascinating from the anticipation, decision making perspective because of the, because the size of the court and with relation to the mental intensity piece. I mean that size of the court means it strikes me that there's very little room for a mental, a mental drop in concentration, that that mental intensity has to be retained. Where I always find everything about human system from time to time wants to drop in mental concentration because that's how we are as human beings. Combined with this notion of as you're, as you, as you're suggesting, you know, anticipation, decision making is about scanning, pattern recognition and so on and so forth and then making quick, optimal decisions. So again, no question, Alex, but I just find that piece absolutely fascinating. So as you say, if a player makes a mistake, is that going to make a difference to mental intensity? And how do players retain mental intensity? How do they retain that throughout? Have you again, appreciate what you can and can't say, but is there in general, is there an appetite in basketball, whether it's at the Raptors or in general, for the granular detail around the mental skills, the subtlety, the nuances that perhaps influence awareness, anticipation, decision making that ultimately influences the outcome of the game?

I think so. I think what we're finding is broadly speaking, that the teams that have invested in that part of the game are finding a bit of an advantage because as you know, in elite sport most of the players are fairly similarly sized and skilled. Right. There may be some players who have a really outsized physical advantage, but by and large most of the players are physically sort of in a similar distribution and ballpark. And so finding ways to optimize some of these less tangible aspects of performance, I think is really important. And there is an appetite for figuring out what it means to, you know, maintain that competitive intensity like you're describing and maintain attention and concentration and figure out how to balance that with. You're right, the natural human tendency to sort of check out and then check back in. There is a desire to figure out how we cope with mistakes. There is a desire to figure out how do we help maintain motivation over an 82 game season. I think all of those things are highly relevant to optimal performance and can separate teams and players from their peers. And I think, you know, perhaps the most obvious example is Kobe Bryant, right. You know, he's done a ton with Mamba mentality. I think in his 10 pillars of practice, mindfulness was one of them. So there is, you know, some of the greatest to ever do it, have invested in that side of the game and it's paid off. And so certainly, you know, there's some physical ability there that that helped Kobe, but there's also an investment in the, the side of the game that can be be a real difference there. And I think there's going to continue to be an appetite for that because like I said, all the players are sort of otherwise somewhat similar. And so I think this is a place you can win.

Absolutely. I can't let you go. Now you're. Now you're full time in basketball. Without asking you if you watched the Last Dance on Netflix and your thoughts on it, we all know it's a documentary and documentaries aren't exactly grade A reliable information. So what were your thoughts and experiences of watching that? Does it ring true to you, a lot of what you saw and any learning experience you got from that?

Yeah, I think I'll start with the learning experiences. I think one of the questions, cultural parts of basketball that's been fascinating to learn and hear about is there's a real passion and point of connection around the history of the game. Understanding the history of basketball and who has come before you is really, really important in understanding and appreciating the culture of basketball. And so to have sort of an immersive experience in, you know, one of the sort of peak periods of basketball from the lens of Michael Jordan I think was fascinating. And there was a lot of history there and that sort of was. Was just cool to learn and feel like, you know, okay, there's. I kind of have a sense of what this period was like now and I can maybe have a conversation about this in a way that I couldn't have before. And so I appreciated that I think from seeing the documentary. I think this is an obvious one, but it certainly still resonated for me. The level of competitiveness of Michael Jordan is just incredible. I mean, it's like, I don't know, you know, people have Their different takes on whether or not it's good or bad or how healthy or unhealthy it is. But there's no way that you can dispute just how incredibly intense he was about winning and competing. And so I think seeing that was just left me in awe, honestly, of what it means to be, you know, potentially that high level of a player. And I'm not sure if I think you have to have that intensity around competition to be, you know, argued to be the greatest of all time. But it's also hard for me to imagine that you could be in that conversation without that level of intensity. And, you know, certainly listening to other elite athletes like a Tom Brady or a LeBron James talk about how they approach the game, I see a lot of parallels there too. And so that part was fascinating. And then I think the, the last part that jumped out to me was the team dynamics, where, you know, there is a bit of, I think, an all high level sport. There's a bit of posturing around the team and a bit of figuring out, you know, who stands where in this real dominance hierarchy that we call a team. And so seeing that play out and what that meant for, you know, the highs and lows of their organization and what it meant for how people felt in the long run, I also thought was really fascinating. And so seeing that, I think does sort of give me a bit of insight into what might go on, you know, for our program, for other programs and think about, you know, what can we do or what can I do as a sports psychologist to help ensure that we're facilitating an optimal team environment in a place where, you know, I think people can maybe get a bit more out of each other and a bit more out of performance if we can find a way to do it around connection, around belonging, around a shared identity and a shared narrative, and not necessarily around one guy wants to win so badly that it really doesn't matter what anybody else wants to do. And there's probably value in doing it that way too. So that's, that's not to minimize or belittle that side of things. But as a psychologist, it certainly interests me to figure out how do we pivot that culture a bit to be a little bit more centered on, you know, inclusion, belonging and optimal performance through.

That lens, achieving in the healthiest, safest possible manner.

Yes, yes, exactly right.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Alex, look, that's just been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Absolutely brilliant. Can't thank you enough for your time. And I know that you are pretty active on social media. Certainly on Twitter. Some of your threads are absolutely brilliant. I'm liking them a lot. How can people follow you on social media? What's your Twitter handle?

Well, thanks. Thanks Stan, that's very kind. I enjoy seeing what you post too. So as I've said already, I borrow some of your ideas, so please keep sharing. You can find me lexourbackphd on Twitter.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much mate for your time. That's been just absolutely fascinating and best of luck for the coming season.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's been fun to chat with you and look forward to learning from you in the future.

Well everybody, I really enjoyed that podcast and I'd love to hear what you the listener thinks. So please do get in touch via Twitter or Facebook or through my website, danabrahams.com to tell me exactly what you think of the sports site show. And if you do have any suggestions, I'd be delighted to to hear them. I'm already looking forward to next week's episode. Bye for now.