44. Dr. Alex Auerbach—Creating a Mastery Climate that Gets Results | Part 1 - Cutting Edge Coaching

In the contrast, the growth mindset climate or mastery climate is really about persisting in the face of failure, increasing effort as things get more challenging, ascribing failure to not giving effort and knowing, hey, I can go back and do this again and I'm just going to put forth more effort this time versus hey, I think I'm going to give up here because this is really tough. Obviously, again, it's a fine line to walk knowing the outcome does matter, but what I think I would suggest is that by spending more time, more language, more values, more behavior around the mastery oriented climate, you can promote that a bit better. Right? So it's not to dismiss outcome as irrelevant, but it's to sort of put it in its place of relative importance while we're also focusing on these other things that are truly what lead to the outcome that we want.

Welcome to the Cutting Edge Coaching Podcast.

Where we believe coaches are some of the most important teachers and leaders in the world and they deserve to be supported. I'm your host Luke Gromer and every week we're bringing you conversations with coaches, experts and leaders from across sports that will help you get better at teaching and leading so that you can develop high performing teams and high character people.

Coaches I'm excited to welcome Dr. Alex Auerbach to the podcast. He's a sports psychologist and the Director of Performance and Wellness for the Toronto Raptors. He joined the Toronto Raptors after serving as the Director of Clinical and Sports Psychology for the University of Arizona. Dr. Auerbach has worked with NCAA Division 1 schools in the PAC 12, ACC, Big 12 and Conference USA. He earned his doctoral degree in Counseling Psychology with a specialization in Sport and Performance Psychology from the University of North Texas. He's a member of several professional organizations and is a certified Mental Performance Consultant, a licensed psychologist, and a member of the United States Olympic Committee Sports Psychology Registry. In Part one of this conversation, we talk about creating a good team environment and the impact it has on player development, mastery climates versus ego climates, and practical ways to keep our behaviors and values in alignment. If you enjoyed the episode and want a copy of the podcast notes, just go to cuttingedgecoach.com podcast or or click the link in the show details to download a free copy of notes from this episode or any episode. And if you're interested in learning more about what we offer coaches, go to cuttingedgecoach.com now to part one of my conversation with Dr. Alex Auerbach. Enjoy the episode.

All right, coaches, really excited to welcome Dr. Alex Auerbach to the podcast today. Dr. Auerbach, I would love if you would just start off by telling the listeners about how and why you got into the sports psychology field and a little bit about what your role with the Toronto Raptors entails.

Sure.

Well, first, thanks. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here and spend this time with you. You know, the Cliff Notes version of how I got into sports psychology was I started my sport career as a college football coach and was really interested in more of the tactical and technical side of things, was interested in the strategy and the competition. So started off as an undergrad assistant at University of Arizona, worked my way up to a full time job at a small FCS school in New England. And when I got there, I just sort of found that the part that resonated most with me in coaching was not so much the technical and tactical and strategic, but was much more the relational and the human development aspect of the work that I had been doing. And so that prompted me to do a bit of soul searching and sort of figure out, you know, if this is where I find myself most fulfilled, you know, how do I create a job or create a role that better lines up with that value, knowing all the different demands of coaching and the different directions I might be pulled and trying to sort of better line up my passion and my purpose there. So decided to go back to graduate school, did a doctorate in counseling psychology with a specialization in sport and performance psychology from University of North Texas, and so sort of work my way through the graduate psychologist trajectory after meeting a wonderful mentor who sort of suggested, hey, I think this sports psychology thing might be the sweet spot for you is a lot of relational work, but there's a bit of competition, a bit of strategy, a bit of everything. And so that really solidified for me that path. And so left graduate school, finished that at one point was managing the mental health and mental performance services for the athletic department and University of Arizona, and then made the jump to the Toronto Raptors in March of 2020. So just before sort of the whole world stopped in professional sports. And in my current role, it's somewhat similar to what I did at University of Arizona. So I oversee and manage the mental health and mental performance services for our players and staff, deliver organizational level consultation, and then I also oversee our off court player development programming with a focus really on kind of holistic health and human. The performance element of what I do is incredibly important. Um, but you know, we're starting as a field really to sort of recognize the personal and professional, especially in professional Sports as deeply interconnected. Um, and so here I am, you know, going into my, I guess, third season, but second full season with the Raptors, trying to continue to elevate what we do to support our players and staff. I love it.

Thanks for sharing that story. And I'm just kind of curious, especially as you were talking about, you know, your journey, getting into coaching, coaching college football, and realizing that the thing you were the most passionate about was the human development and the relational aspects of it. Was it something that, as you were. As you were coaching, was it something that just became really obvious that that was. Was missing, like, from the team environments that you were in, or was it something where it was just. That was the piece that got you the most excited?

Yeah, I would say it was more the latter for me. I mean, I've been fortunate to work with some great staffs and coaches who, you know, do recognize the complex nature of being a college athlete or professional athlete. But I think for me, what I found most intriguing and appealing was all these problems coming to me that I wanted to support with and help with, but didn't feel really qualified to navigate. So I was a younger coach. I had younger guys coming to me to talk about professional development or relationship issues or stuff going on at home and all of those things like, huh, I want to support you, but I don't know how to help you. And that was sort of where I saw this gap between here's a really, really necessary resource and here's what we have sort of as a full staff. And sure, I can, like, be a listening ear and offer some kind of, you know, comfort around that, but certainly not enough to really help manage and mitigate, you know, a lot of those concerns. And so for me, that was sort of like, huh, I'm really passionate about this. I see this gap here. How can I weave that in more to my daily life and make that the focus of what I do?

Yeah, that's. That's awesome and really interesting, and I think we'll hit on. On that maybe a little bit more later, but I'd love to talk now about kind of a broad topic of creating a good team environment and specifically, you know, how coaches can do a better job of that and. And the importance and impact of that team environment on individual performance.

That's a huge topic.

It is. And you, like, take it wherever you want. Wow.

Okay. You're giving me a ton of creative liberty here.

Yes, sure.

So I guess for me, I'll sort of start at what I see our first principles of creating a good team environment, which I would sort of boil down to language and behavior. Right. And so there's a way that we talk about things, a way we communicate about what's important, that really sets the scene for creating a team environment, for how we treat one another, for what we say that we value. And then there's the behavioral aspect, which is essentially does what we actually do line up with what we're saying? And obviously, the more sort of congruence we can have between those two elements, assuming those elements are pointing in a positive, fulfilling direction, the better our team culture is going to be. And so obviously there are, from the science side of things, several dimensions we'd want to pull from here. So I think the workaround, it's been really popularized by Carol Dweck and the growth mindset, but that was born out of these two researchers, Smith and Small, who did a lot of work around creating a mastery oriented climate. So providing feedback about effort, helping people orient toward mastery versus task performance. Obviously there's a little bit of both in sport. I mean, that's the inherent nature of what we do. But I think that's a great place to start. I think Amy Edmondson's work around psychological safety is hugely critical in this area. I think there have been some interesting pieces that have come out of organizational psychology that I think are relevant, like identifying organizational values, cultural artifacts, assumptions we make about the culture. I think those pieces are also really important to recognize. And then I think there's sort of the art side of culture creating, if you will, which is sort of what does the coach value, what does the organization value, what is most important based on where we are. So I think of people like Ben Littleton and his book Edge, where he sort of identified these teams that had really unique cultures based on their own circumstance. And it wasn't that one was any better than the other as much as it was. Here's what's sort of unique about being in Toronto, for example, and what we can claim that maybe other people can't claim, and some of the unique challenges and benefits we have and how do we shape a narrative and an identity really around that. And so I guess that's where I jump us off, but I'm happy to unpack. Whatever you think would be best.

Yeah, no, there's a ton of good stuff there. And I think one of the things I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about is the mastery climate that you reference, referenced and yeah, maybe just a little bit more explanation of what it is. And why it can be so important in the environment that a coach creates.

Sure. So I think the best way to sort of frame it is from the Carol Dweck work. So for folks who have read the book Mindset, you basically got growth versus fixed mindset. And so mastery oriented climate is really about fostering a growth mindset. And task or ego oriented climate is really about fostering a focus on results and outcomes. There are several ways that you can go about fostering that mastery climate. Things like providing feedback about effort, validating outcomes based on effort versus ability, emphasizing things like persistence and hard work, using language that supports the validity of the process versus really highlighting the outcomes. And so that would be, let's say, a growth mindset oriented climate or mastery oriented climate. And just to contrast for a second, ego oriented might sound like really focusing on wins and losses, worrying about who's talented or who's the better athlete. A little bit less emphasis on development and more emphasis on things like sort of innate ability to deliver on the field or on the court. And what we found in the literature is really that the two can coexist. So I think that's an important emphasis. You know, often they get talked about as though, you know, they're mutually exclusive. And the reality is like for really high level performers, you need a little bit of both, right? You have to care about the outcome. In sport, that's just the nature of what we do. But by overemphasizing or over focusing on the outcome, what you end up with is all these behaviors that ultimately are things that hurt your outcome and are things that could coaches typically don't want to see. So, for example, really emphasizing the outcome, what you tend to get is people who, to use a sports metaphor, play not to lose, right? So you withdraw effort as things get more challenging. You're really focused on comparison. It's less about skill development and more about me and what I can do or can't do. And so a lot of behavior then gets sort of routed around helping to protect this image of myself as a talented athlete, as a person who can or can't do things. And it creates a little bit less of that drive for improvement that we all talk about and like to see in coaching. In the contrast, right? The growth mindset climate or mastery climate is really about persisting in the face of failure, increasing effort as things get more challenging, ascribing failure to not giving effort and knowing like, hey, I can go back and do this again and I'm just going to put forth more Effort this time versus hey, I think I'm going to give up here because this is really tough. So, you know, obviously again, it's a, it's a fine line to walk knowing the outcome does matter. But what I think I would suggest is that, you know, by spending more time, more language, more values, more behavior around the mastery oriented climate, you can promote that a bit better. Right. So it's not to dismiss outcome as irrelevant, but it's to sort of put it in its place of relative importance while we're also focusing on these other things that are truly what lead to the outcome that we want.

Yeah, that's really good. I appreciate that explanation and I appreciate you just highlighting too that like it's not necessarily one or the other that, you know, in sport and especially the higher you go, like there is the both. And at times I think that's just important for us to remember. I would love if you maybe just talked a little bit more about what you were saying there at the end, as far as, you know, that language and those values and behaviors that really drive that. And I'd just be really curious to know, you know, maybe it's things that you guys that you with the Raptors are doing or things that you've seen other coaches do, but what are some, what are maybe some things that coaches could take away as far as, you know, language or really how to.

Yeah.

Create that language and shape those behaviors to move towards that mastery climate?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think to start, I guess, on the values front, I think values are pretty personal and team specific, but I think in general, values that promote pro social behavior, values that promote hard work, treating one another with respect, those are foundational things that I think are important. Where I think I can probably spend more time is on the second piece of your question around coaches and what I've seen. And so I'll go broadly in terms of the best coaches I've been around and the most coaches who I think have really succeeded in fostering that environment. And I think a couple things jump out at me right off the bat. So the first is, you know, in coaching, I think sometimes there's a tendency to assume that we have done the best job that we can and now it's on the player to figure it out. And. And the best coaches I have seen have taken responsibility for their players development and talked about their teaching and what they can do to improve to help their player get more out of the way that they coach. And the message that sends is that we're in this together. And this is not about where you are right now. This is about us working together to help you get where you want to go. And so it's very process oriented. Similarly, I think language around persistence, so keep working hard. That was a really great effort. We're going to keep taking those game winning shots. Whether you make it or miss it, we're going to keep shooting. Those sorts of even small verbal behavioral nudges go a really long way toward illustrating what it is you as a coach value. And so I think that the best coaches I've been around have talked that way, but then the behavior also lines up with that. Right. And so it's really easy to sort of say, yeah, just keep working hard. But then when Johnny's out there on the field and he misses a shot and you start cursing or jumping up and down on the sideline and telling Johnny that he's trash, you know, all those things do happen. And while coaching can be an emotionally intense labor of love, I know, like I've been there, I've been in the 100 hour workweek trying to prepare for a game and feeling that defeat and feeling that victory, those messages really matter too. And so I think probably the last element I toss in here is I think of culture as sort of hard won and easily lost. And so the idea would be you can do all of this right in practice. You can say, focus on effort, you can be supportive, you can cultivate in a mastery climate. And if you show up on game day and you don't do anything that supports or rewards players who have put forth great effort, if you focus only on the outcome, those things can really undermine all the work you've done during the week to get to that point. And so I think the best coaches have that consistency across practice and games, maintain a good perspective around what any one outcome means. Right. So if you take an NBA season, for example, we have 82 games. That's not to say that the games aren't important, but it is to say you don't necessarily need to disproportionately emphasize one over the other, depending on where you are. Right. And so having a bit of that kind of contextual intelligence to navigate that I think is incredibly important for coaches too. So I think those would be some of the highlights.

Yeah, there were some really powerful things that you said in there. I think what you said was that you think culture is hard won but easily lost. I think that's really powerful and true. And I think the other thing that jumped out to me is it's small, subtle shifts that need to be made. Often. It's not necessarily that coaches need to change everything they're doing. We just need to be more intentional with our language and recognizing maybe when we have a tendency to behave in a way that's not in line with our values or what we've. What we've told our athletes we're going to be about. I think. I think that's huge because, like you said, when. When we don't. Like, that's. When you lose your culture. When. When we. When we behave in those ways that aren't aligned with our values and what we said we're trying to create and we don't. And we don't own it. Like, we. We just do that and we, you know, because we will mess up, like you said, and. And I. And hopefully we're willing to own it and apologize and repair those relationships. Um, yeah. I just think that that's so, so powerful. And some of those small shifts in language can just be so, so impactful on our. For our athletes and in our coaching. I'd love if you would talk a little bit more about kind of what I was talking about there with coaches and our behavior and making sure they're aligned with our values. Like you said, it's really easy in the heat of the moment, a practice, a game, to really just behave in ways that aren't aligned with what we've claimed we care about. And so I'd love to just hear from your perspective as a sports psychologist, what do coaches need to be doing to ensure that their behaviors stay in line with their values?

That's a wonderful question. And first, I'm happy to unpack it, because I love where you're taking this. I want to double down on something you said that I think is really important briefly, though, which is the emphasis and the small shift. And I think a lot of times in behavior change, like, this is sort of a broader cultural phenomenon. Like, if you think of New Year's resolutions, for example, people are like, jumping to the ultimate thing that they would love to have accomplished. And I think people sometimes think of culture change like that too. Like, here's the culture I want, so here's exactly what we're going to do, and it's just going to show up like a week later. And I think what you've done is masterfully illustrated the ways that you can change your culture without any sort of formal announcement, without sort of laying it all out there, but just these really tiny shifts in what you emphasize, how you talk. And I think that that's a much more manageable way actually to create the culture that you want. It can be more challenging at times, and there is merit to sort of laying out up front and being really transparent about what you're to create. But I think knowing that there are smaller steps you can take is really important, which I think bleeds nicely into your next question. And so, you know, I think some of what else you were illustrating that I thought was really well done was this emphasis on self awareness. And so for coaches who are trying to, you know, better discern how to line up their values with their behavior and vice versa, I think it starts with the foundation of self awareness and learning a bit more about who you are and what you value and not in some sort of like culturally sanctioned sports sort of way. Right. Where all these sports have their implicit underlying things that we say we're supposed to value, like that's fine, but I think it's more powerful to dive a bit deeper into you as a person and ultimately, you know, think a bit about what it is that you value and then how that might show up in your workday or your relationships with other people. I think from that you can start to figure out what are my hot button issues, what are the things that I find most frustrating? And can you start to then tease apart is your emotional reaction in those more critical moments about fear, which is what I think happens a lot in coaching. I think there is a ton of fear of failure, loss, loss of job, all these other things that are very real, but ultimately kind of undermine a bit that longer term trajectory of creating the culture that you want. So I would start there. I would advocate for coaches to think of themselves like high performers and to do the same things that they ask their athletes to do. So if you ask your athlete to meet with a nutritionist, if you ask your athlete to meet with a sports psychologist, you yourself should consider those same things. And it's not because there's something wrong or bad. It's because coaching is hard and coaching is a performance endeavor. Like you're under pressure too. The game is about you also, right? It's mostly about the players on the court or on the field, but it is a bit about you too. And so I think those things are really critical. So those I think would be good places to start. And obviously, you know, as a psychologist, to the extent you're comfortable, I'd advocate like a bit of process consultation or performance coaching or therapy, whatever you want to Call it but. And whatever you feel comfortable with. But there is merit to having having kind of an objective outside person listen to you and tell you kind of where, what they see and what they hear and provide some of that feedback. It can be really illuminating. And you can do that with a close confidant if you feel more comfortable that way. But obviously I think there's something sports psychologists have to offer there too. And the last piece, I'd say is I think, plotting your own sort of learning and development trajectory a bit. I think particularly for head coaches, there's sort of this predetermined way that people think they're supposed to climb, right? So it's like, I'll be the head coach here and then I'll jump up a division, and then I'll jump up a division and as long as I keep winning, it'll be okay. And you know, I think the best coaches I've been around have said, like, what is it that I can learn from this particular place? What can I try at this particular place that's unique and how does that help me grow and develop? And so I think those elements together, kind of the self awareness, you know, treating yourself like a high performer and focusing on your own learning and development would all be things I'd advocate for better. Figuring out how to line up those behaviors with those values.

Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in there. A couple things. One, as you were talking about understanding our triggers, maybe what's actually beneath our behaviors. The Trent Dilfer video that went viral just popped into my mind. And yeah, I'm not here to make a judgment about him. And to be honest, I respected his apology. I thought that, you know, I don't know him. And like we've said, it's like everyone makes mistakes. But that was my question. Like, what was beneath that? That video of him getting so frustrated at a player, like shoving. It's like, what was really going on in Trent there? Like, why was he so irate? You know, what was. Like you said, oftentimes it's a fear, you know, a fear of how we're perceived as the coach or. I don't know that. That was just what I thought of as you were talking. I was like, what was beneath that? And then to be more self reflective, like, okay, what's beneath it? For me, when I snap at a kid in practice or a game, when I kick a kid out of practice or I like, what. What's really there? I think that's just so important to consider. And unless we really consider it. We probably never will realize what it is. And then I love that piece too. Essentially, as coaches, we need to do what we preach. It's just really hard for athletes if they have a coach talking to them about the importance of nutrition and that coach isn't taking care of their own body. Right. Or that coach talking about mental performance and the ability to move on to the next play. But that coach is just complaining about the 10 things that happened previously and the coach isn't focused on the next play.

Yeah, yeah.

The modeling is so huge. What would you. You have anything to add to that?

Oh, I just love where you're headed with that. And I think that's like, that's one of what I think is a primary culture killer, is there's this massive discrepancy between what you are emphasizing as a coach and then what you actually do. And so, you know, players are smart. Players are smart no matter what level you are. Like, even at a young age, we learn how to detect bs, frankly. And so when stuff doesn't add up or when it doesn't make a lot of sense at the best for a coach, what we get is confusion and a chance to explain ourselves. At the worst, you get a player who's like, dude doesn't know what he's talking about. And so I think, you know, what I would suggest, and I'll borrow this from Adam Grant, but I think he said it beautifully, is like, only preach what you practice. If you don't know what it is that you want, it's okay to not know. And that's part of creating that psychological safety. That's part of being a leader and sort of owning up and being self aware. But if you're going to just preach something because this is what everybody else is doing, or, you know, sort of conceptually you think this is important, but you're not really sure. Like, I would just encourage to go one step further because those things will really kind of undermine a bit what it is you're trying to create. And so, yeah, I think, I think what you're touching on is really important. And a lot of times, I think, you know, you mentioned the trend for video. I think I wish I knew what was going on. I don't know. But I think when you were talking about yourself and sort of throwing a kid out of practice, like, even for me, I started wondering, like, huh, you know, I wonder, like, what did this kid do? You know, and is this about. And I don't mean this critically, you and your ego Right. And what you hope this kid will deliver, or is this really about, like, man, this kid just really is, you know, kicking a soccer ball onto the other field, not playing with his teammates, you know, doing all the things that would actually warrant sending someone home. Right. So I think that's really important for coaches to think a bit about, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I love what you said there. Only preach what you practice. That's just a such. That's such a powerful place to start and to frame it from. And what you said there, too. Yeah, like, that's the question that I've had to reflect on. Like, is this about my ego here? Like, I'm really frustrated with this kid. Is it about my ego? Like, this kid is not meeting the standard. It's dragging everyone down. I'm frustrated. But again, like, is it. Is it about me? Or, like, am I kind of justified in this frustration? Yeah. We could spend a lot of time, like, figuring out how to handle those situations better.

Coaches, thanks for listening to this episode. I'll be back next week with part two of my conversation with Dr. Auerbach.

As always, if you enjoyed this episode.

And you want to grab a copy of the podcast notes, go to cuttingedgecoach.com podcast or click the link in the show details. My big takeaway from this episode is the importance of creating a mastery climate. If we want to develop our athletes to their fullest potential as players and people, we need to commit to creating this kind of climate. And it's a commitment, a commitment to align our values, language, and behaviors, which all have a massive impact on our ability to create that climate. And like Dr. Auerbach shared, it's not that the results don't matter, but as he said, and I believe this too, this is the best way to actually get those results and performance. A commitment to creating a mastery climate. Like I mentioned in the intro, if you want to learn more about how we serve coaches, go to cuttingedgecoach.com thanks for listening to the podcast.