Alex Auerbach Interview

Yo, what's going on, everybody? Welcome into another episode of the B Ball Jones Podcast. I am your lovely, handsome host for this evening. Morning, afternoon. Wherever you're watching this, just know I'm the host. I'm B Ball Jones, the B Ball Jones Podcast. That's kind of how I've been topping over here. And today I have another gift for you guys. As you know. Hopefully you're about to find out. Like, of course I'm a basketball trainer. I am a nerd for, like, the mental side of the game, too. Like, just getting people to change their brain, shout these things, and how you think about stuff. I like that part. Like, I. I like psychology and a little bit of sociology and all this stuff, too, but I'm not, like, a professional at, like, I'm decent enough. Like, if you guys. I got, like, somebody who, like, actually does this, they do at a very high level. Like, they're. They're dope at it. I'm okay, but they're dope. So let's introduce you guys to the dopeness that we have. And Mr. Alex, he's, like, professional. Like, what's going on? Professional PhD. Alex, what's up, man?

What's going on, man? Thanks for having me.

You got a.

You got a great podcast voice, dude. You're crushing it, man.

That's. I appreciate that. I don't think I've heard that that often. Like, I've heard I had a great voice, but I think this is the first time I've heard I had a great podcast voice. So I appreciate that.

You might be built for this.

God designed me for podcasting. He had podcast and design at some point, and he was like, let me make sure Brian has this, like, detail down.

So we'll get him talking about basketball. We'll get him talking on a podc. What could be better?

I'm living a life right now, man. Like, I can't complain.

That's awesome.

So let's tell the people about you, though. Like, you're. You're living a pretty good life as well. So let's tell them about you and what you got going on.

Yeah. So my name is Alex. I'm the sports psychologist for the Toronto Raptors. I've been here for about three and a half years, since actually right before the NBA went into lockdown and the bubble season of COVID So I joined on March 1, 2020, and I think that was March 11, 2020, so it was a pretty quick turn in my role, responsible for mental health and mental performance of players Coaches and staff, but also responsible for what we call off court player development. So that's things like character development, leadership development, life skills training, things that sort of round out the whole person as a basketball player. And we think a lot about how to help our players be great on the court, but obviously be great off the court and think about how they can maximize their full potential. So that's where I come into play, doing things like helping athletes train their mindset, think about how they might perform better under pressure, manage stress, improve confidence, all those things.

So I don't want to make this whole thing about a Covid situation, but what was your thought process when you got hired? And then, like, two seconds later, it's like, oh, I'm not even, like, working. Like, what? Like, as you like. So let's take me through Alex the Man. Like, how did you handle that? But then how did you handle, like, the job environment and dealing with the players and, like, the new staff and.

Everything was an interesting time for me, personally, because I was also transitioning out of my old job and into a new job. So there was a little bit of time there where I was doing two jobs. And so I didn't have a ton of time to really think about it much personally. Obviously, it was challenging and it was disappointing, right, because you're sort of getting geared up to go live in a new place, be with these people that you really like, try to onboard, start a new job, do a good job, and then everything comes to a halt. And obviously the team's in Canada. Like, you couldn't even cross the border at the time. So I was like, I don't know when I'm gonna go, right? I don't know when I'm gonna go. I don't want to live up there. I don't know any of that stuff. So it was a lot of uncertainty, and at times that was stressful, and at times it was fun. But I think the way I tried to handle it was to just try to kind of embrace it. I mean, as a therapist and psychologist at that time, a lot of people needed help and support, right? And so for me, you know, with that training, a lot of my attention was poured into other people, right? How do we keep other people safe? Well, transition to remote work, keep people engaged, all those things. And then the team was. Was great for me in that regard because it became pretty clear quickly how important mental health was going to be throughout the pandemic, right? People dealing with isolation, losing their opportunity to connect with people at work, losing, like, A core part of their identity and how they spent their time. And so we were really proactive in thinking about how do we help people cope with this, how do we help people cope with the change? How do we help people think about what to do with their time most effectively? Um, so I got put to work fairly quickly, even though it was remote work. Um, you know, then obviously you're. You're trying to think about how you help and manage the players who are going through a unique situation too. Right. Their whole year is on pause. It's not clear if we're going to start or stop. It's not clear where we'll pick up from. Will we just go straight to the playoffs? At the time, obviously, the bubble wasn't even a thought in anyone's mind, you know, so it was really a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty, which I think was really tough on. On all of us, right? Us as the Raptors, but all of us as people dealing with that. So I'm not immune to any of that. I certainly experienced some of that myself. But like I said, try to keep. Do my part. Right. And help as many people as I could through it.

So what was like, how did you handle that? Because this is like. So first off, how are the players being receptive to the mindset? Half of it. Some players just like, eyes like, you know, whatever is kind of phony or fake. And I know some of them kind of open to it. But how's like, the overall reception to you in general and especially during that time of like, it's a new person coming in and this whole pandemic thing, like, you know, I mean, how did they handle that whole situation and directly dealing with you?

Early on in the pandemic, I mean, I was really thoughtful about not reaching out to players because I was brand new. They had someone in my role before me who was still available and around and consulting. And so I tried to be really thoughtful about how quickly I made contact, found creative ways to offer support. Right. So we did like a mindfulness challenge. We did kind of daily, well being challenges that everyone could do. And so that was the start of kind of building a relationship with the players, getting to know some of them. And then over time, as the pandemic went on and we spent more and more time kind of dealing with that, and then everyone was getting ready the bubble. I got sort of more and more involved, but it wasn't really until after the bubble that I started to build solid relationships with the players and be around them more. I just said Honestly, I'd never met any of them in person before that. So it was kind of a. It was a weird time to transition in, for sure. So I would say kind of broad, broadly. Like, I think there's openness to what I do. You know, we've done a good job, I think, making my role accessible, right? Like, I'm at everything that we do. I show up to practice, I come to film, I go to games. And so I'm seen as part of the team, just like everybody else is seen as part of the team. And I think that that's a really effective way to integrate something like mindset training into what you do versus putting it away in a corner somewhere and kind of like, if you find it, you can go. Which is how some teams deal with it. And so, yeah, I would say, you know, we're entering a new era, I think, of athletes, right? You're seeing a bunch of famous athletes talk about their mindset or mental health, broadly. And I think NBA players are similar, right? In a lot of ways, NBA players are kind of leading the charge, right? You've got Kevin Love, DeMar DeRozan, John Wall. Like, the list of NBA players who are coming out and talking about things. If you go back to the bubble year, as Paul George was talking about it. So it's very. I think it's becoming more and more accepted as part of what it means to be an elite athlete, means to take care of mind the same way that you take care of your body. And of course, you have some people who don't want to use it or don't get it or don't want to talk, and that's fine. You know, everyone has their. Their right to make their own choice. I'm not here to force anyone to spend time with me. But I think you also got a contingent of guys who. Who get that this is an important part of becoming a high performer.

So how. How do you act? Like, let me see how I want to ask this. So it's not mandatory for him to come to you. So how do you earn your paycheck? To an extent, because you could just like, basically be coasting by and nobody comes to you. And it's like, I'm here, but if nobody comes to you, then it's kind of like, you know what I mean? So, like, how. What do you do in that instance? Like, you know what I'm trying to say? Like, I'm not asking the best way, but, like, they could easily just be like, no, I'm good, and I come to you. And so, like, how does that whole dynamic work out?

Well, I'm responsible for a lot more than just player well being. So that's part of it, right. You know, so I'm responsible for thinking about things like organizational culture, how do we create a high performance team, how do we get staff members to work better together? You know, I deal with things that you might think of are like kind of HR kind of issues, right? Employee behavior, staff behavior, player behavior, coach behavior. But then I'm also involved in things like player development, right. So we talk about how to help players develop their skills on the core. Like, well, what is the mindset like going for that? So you kind of find ways where you plug in across the organization, this central skill set of being a psychologist. Right. Which is basically understanding and helping modify human behavior. And if you can think of an organization, it's like just a big group of people, right? There's a lot of human behavior happening everywhere. And so there's a lot of opportunity to make a big difference and to make an impact on how the organization is operating. And so I think that's a big way to add value as a psychologist, even if people aren't meeting with you individually. But what I found is it's kind of like a slow, steady rise. Once you've built a good relationship with a couple players and you've done some things that are helpful, then the rest of the team, staff people start to see that, you know, and players will talk to each other, obviously. And so if they're comfortable, they'll. They'll say something. And that stuff helps too. But the reality is there's a lot of work to go around with everyone figuring out how we can all be healthy and high performing. So of course the players are the main focus, but all of us are trying to figure out how we can be the best that we can be.

So what is that relationship like with the coaches? Like, I know I'm pretty sure you've done a lot of interviews always about the players, but like, just. I don't know what made me think about it, but like, what is that relationship like with the coaches? Because they deal with a lot of, like they're pretty much the whole job is their brain. They had to deal with like a lot of. They're basically HR too, to an extent, because they have to manage the personalities in the locker room. And, oh, he's powdering me because he's not playing as much and he has all the court issues now. He's not performing on the Court, so he has to deal with that. But some of that kind of falls in your lap, too. So how do you manage that with the coaches? Like, what are their. What does their process look like when it comes to you, too?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you're spot on. Right. So I think, to me, the way I think about coaching, the main currency of coaching, like what makes coaches successful is good decisions and good relationships. And both of those things are heavily impacted by your mind.

Right.

And how your mind's functioning from sleep to emotional health to kind of the. Even the words you use. Right. Like, all those things are kind of a product of the way that your brain works. And so I've been super lucky to work with some very psychologically minded coaches. Right. Coaches who understand that, look, this is a huge part of what it means for me to be successful. And in many ways, I try to advocate for coaches thinking of themselves like elite performers. Right. I mean, you're also performing under pressure. You also have to make the right decision at the right time, the same way we ask players to do that. And that requires the same thing it requires of players. Right. Good sleep, good nutrition, good hydration, exercise. Right. Meditation. These basic things that we're trying to encourage players to do, to be in a solid place to perform, coaches need to be doing that same thing. So a lot of times my relationship is around helping coaches manage some of those things and then manage the unique stressors that come with being a coach. Right. There's a lot of pressure to win and win now. There's a lot of kind of hierarchy, status issues that come into play with coaching. There's a lot to manage there. And so just like the players, we try to help the coaches manage those as best we can, too.

Okay. I was just wondering because I don't know what made me think about that. So I was just like, great question. Yeah, thank you, man. I pride myself on that. So I appreciate that. So I like. I like giving practical stuff here too. So you're at the highest level. But let's bring it down to, like, high school, middle school. What can a coach do within their practices or training or whatever to, they say build mental toughness, but, like, what can we actually do that's practical to help the players out, to, like, develop them mentally and not just the skills?

So I think the first thing coaches can do is think really constructively about how they talk to players during practice and during games. Right. So a lot of what we think of as mindset really comes down to beliefs. You have about specific things that you're dealing with. So, for example, when you're thinking about mental toughness, a lot of that comes down to beliefs you have around dealing with challenges or dealing with adversity. And so if you want your players to be better when it comes to dealing with challenges or dealing with adversity, you need to talk to them productively about how to do that. You need to actually teach them how to do that, right? So that might be doing things like saying, hey, when. When we're under pressure, we rise to the challenge, right? Or this is an opportunity for us to get better versus, you know, some of the stuff you hear in coaching, which is crazy, right? Like, you know, you guys are crap. We're never gonna do it. Yeah. It's like, that stuff is not helpful. What do you. What are you hoping someone is going to gain from that? Right? So the first step is to talk productively and constructively about mindset skills, right? About what it means to persist through difficulty, right? Or be gritty, right? And so then that gets the things like growth, mindset, right? Like emphasizing the value of effort over natural talent, talking about how important it is to work hard, stay consistent, but really then connecting that to behavior, right? So when someone does something on the court that's persistent or someone gives really good effort, reinforce that, reward that, right? Like comment on the things you want players to do, not just the things that they're doing wrong, which is also a coaching default, that tends to be problematic. So I think those are some really kind of practical ways that you as a coach could think about building some of these mindset skills. And then, you know, I mean, you've been in this position too, right? If you're coaching someone, you can kind of tell, right? You can tell, like, when the confidence is gone or when they're being hard on themselves. Those are great opportunities to just pause and say, hey, you know what? I noticed that you got really hard on yourself right there. You got really down on yourself. Like, tell me, what were you saying to yourself in that moment? And then if they give you the answer, you can ask, like, well, did that help you? You know, how did that work for you? Right? Like, be curious. Try to help your players become scientists about their own performance. If you can do those kinds of things and give that feedback, you can really build constructive mindset skills. The last thing I'll say is, broadly speaking, I think coaches really need to practice giving feedback about positive things, right? So the golden ratio is kind of five positives to every one negative if you want a negative bit of criticism or feedback to sink in. And so that's a lot of praise to be giving. Right? But we're very, as a society, broadly, certainly in coaching, we're very quick to give a lot of constructive criticism. So think about something that you've done at work. Like if you're a high school coach, right, you maybe teach classes and you've asked for feedback or you've gotten student reviews, right? It's super easy. Like, oh, you went too fast. You shouldn't have done this, you should have done that. Oh, that wasn't interesting because that's how we're conditioned. But it's much, much harder and much more valuable to say, hey, when you did this, this, this, this and this, I loved it. Hey, when you ran really hard after that loose ball, that was excellent. I really like the way that you stayed focused on that and you were willing to sacrifice for your teammates. That was amazing. And the next time that happens, I might think about just trying this one small thing differently to help you be successful with that. That kind of feedback is really, really valuable and not feedback that we give enough.

I had a coach who would say. He would always say, talk in the positive and the affirmative. Yeah, he would always talk to us in that way. And he would always. He would never, like, directly call anyone out. He will always just kind of. If it was negative, he'd address the team. If it kept becoming an issue, then he'll come to you directly and he'll call you out. Like, he, he was. He was a psychological guy. He was probably my favorite coach because he, like, he would tug at people and he'll play the mind games and all this stuff. So he always, like, say, speak in the positive and affirmative. When I was younger, I'm like, what are you talking about? You're speaking like another language like that. But now that I'm older and I'm kind of in a similar shoes, like, okay, I did my psychology research, understanding the mindset. It's like, okay, the brain responds better to positivity. And especially as kids, like, we're all like kids to an extent. We all respond better to positivity. Like, nobody wants to be fussed at and, like, have negatives thrown in their face. No matter how constructive criticism it is, we all want to have the positive. And so with coaches, we kind of do have this perceptive nature of being the tough guy, especially as being like, men. Like, we're going to be like, I'm hard nose dad, or, you know, whatever, but how important do you think that emotional intelligence is as a coach? Because I don't feel like that's talked about enough. Like, you just, you're the coach and it's, you know, back in my day, it was the hard nose, you know, throwing a ball at your face type coaching. So I'm coach. You guys like that too. And it's like, okay, but today's kids aren't responding to that. So how important is emotional intelligence for a coach and making sure that they're adapting to that environment, too?

I love that you're asking this question. I think it's super important and it's very important. Right. Emotional intelligence, like, at its core. Right. Understanding other people, what motivates them, how they're feeling, what they're thinking, all that does is help you be a better coach. Right. If you know your athletes that well, you know how to put them in a position to be successful, you know what to say to them after a tough mistake, you know how to respond to them when something goes well, that's all super valuable. I mean, ultimately, coaching is guiding, it's teaching, it's helping players do what you want them to do within a system that you think is going to win. If you don't understand that who they are or know them or care about them. And I think most coaches do care about their athletes, but if you don't kind of get into the emotional side of it and build that personal relationship, you're just never going to see the full picture. Right. And the full picture is really what you want if you want to get the most out of your athletes. And certainly you're spot on. Right. Things like masculinity kind of get in the way. And, you know, I think the phrases that kill coaches are the way we've always done it and when I was your age, right. Like those, those two things are never going to get you anywhere because it's not the same age that it was when you were a player. And the way we've always done it like that the whole world innovates. Right. If we did it the way we'd always done it, we'd still be driving around with, you know, attached telephones in our car. Cell phones wouldn't exist. Right. Like, there's a lot that comes with progress that's really, really positive. And so I think leaning in, regardless of where you are in your coaching journey, leaning into the, the eq, the emotional intelligence side of things, I think is really, really important because ultimately you're trying to get the best out of your players. Right. And if we can get the best out of our players, then you're going to be in a great position to win. Right? And that's ultimately what it's all about. We all want to be successful, we all want to win. But it's a lot easier to do that with guys who know that you care about them.

So would you say the first step for a coach would be to just basically understand the players and try to get to not know them, like, personally personally, but just understand them individually?

I think so. I mean, I think, you know, one of the also common pitfalls of coaching is to coach the team that you want instead of the team that you have. And I think you want to coach the team you have. Right? So to do that, you have to know your players individually. You have to know their strengths, their limitations, what they like, what they don't like, what situations they're comfortable in, what situations are less comfortable in, what they need from their teammates, what they need from you, how they like to be coached, how they receive feedback. Like, there's a ton to get into if you're a coach. But all that stuff is going to help you be better, right? And so it all sounds like, fluffy, right? You know, it's sort of warm and soft and it doesn't seem like just coach basketball. But that is coaching. Like, that's what coaching is. It's building the relationship enough again that you can get the most out of this guy. And that's what you're really trying to do. And I think anyone kind of, when you step out of sports, it makes a lot of sense, right? So imagine going to work for a boss who never asked you anything about what your work, you know, anything about life outside of work. Like, you wouldn't want to work with that guy very much or that gal very much. You wouldn't feel that connected to them. That certainly wouldn't be a boss that made you stay right or made you work hard. If you got another opportunity to go somewhere else that paid better and was more connected and more fun, you'd be out of there in two seconds, right? So why do we expect players to be any different? We shouldn't. They have the same needs that the rest of us have. It's just a sport context. And so I think reminding yourself that those things are fundamental human needs, right? People need to be cared about, they need to be connected. They want to feel empowered. Those things go a long way to getting the most out of your athletes. And if you want to win, right, you need them to play as hard as they can in your system for you. Right. And the way to do that is to get super connected.

What is it? Maslow's hierarchy of needs? I think that's who was. Yeah. So, like, once you get past the first stage, like, there's not too much a coach can do about that, you know? But the next stage, I think, is like, just basically, I don't remember exactly off the top of my head, but just. Just conquering those levels of needs that each player has. And so as a kid, you want to feel included. You want to feel like you're important. So how can a coach develop those needs of the players and make sure that they feel like this is us and not just a bunch of people, like a random group here with the same uniform on versus like an army or a team, like a real group that's we're like family building together. Like, what's the difference between a family culture and just a group or a team? Just, like, pick up five at the random wreck. Like, how do you. How can you build that different culture to where we're not just a random five on the court to being a family and team culture?

I think it starts with spending time with each other on and off the court, Right? So it starts with, again, the same stuff. We're talking about getting to know each other, getting to understand individual preferences and tendencies, and then really kind of the way, like, I don't know if you have. You have kids, but I'm sure people who are listening do have kids, right? Like, you kind of parent your kids the same, and you kind of parent them differently in that, like, each kid you have has individual things that you have to think about and individual ways that they respond. They're unique people. And so you have kind of a set of guiding principles that you apply, right? These are your values. This is what it means to be a part of this team. These are the guiding principles, the standards that we're going to hold everyone to. But then you individualize what you do to each individual player and the person that's in front of you, because each person has different needs. So what I need from the team, Brian, might be different from what you need from the team. As a coach, I should be trying to get both of those met. As long as it fits. This is how we do things. This is what we believe in here. So the simple way I think about building a culture, kind of the three buckets or three pillars are values, right? Which is like, what do we stand for? What do we want to be known for. Who are we as a team, what's our identity? Standards, which is like, what is the expectation for how we operate? How do we do things here? So we had, who are we with values now? How, how do we. With standards? And then norms is kind of like the daily habits that we implement as a group that drive the way that we behave regularly. And a simple way to think about culture is it kind of falls to the lowest common denominator. Right. So whatever you tolerate on a day to day basis, that's going to set your culture. And so the way to kind of create that closer culture, that tight knit culture, is to really make the norms about interacting, about hanging out, about spending time together, about caring about each other and doing things every day that foster and facilitate that. Right. So taking time at the beginning of practice to let guys chat or checking in with each player individually before practice. Hey man, how's your family? What's going on with you? How's school going? Whatever, right? Like these little things that sort of communicate that care. If those become the norms, you'll have that closeness and that connection that you're looking for in your culture. If you show up to practice and immediately you go into warmups and no one says anything, like you can expect to be a bunch of guys wearing, you know, yellow pennies out there running around trying to figure it out together.

Right?

So those are, those would be the three buckets I'd sort of point people to, to think about.

Yeah, you should probably trademark that, man. Alex's three buckets of team culture.

I don't know that I'm sophisticated enough to trademark it, but I. There's more work to do on it, but I think those are, those are pretty important pieces for sure.

Yeah, I think just we can figure this out after, you know, we get it done. I just need like 2% as a manager fee and then you can have the rest. That's it.

Okay, Perfect. Done.

Hey, hey, hey. Relax. It's okay. Listen, I understand that your goal is so big that it just feels daunting, it just feels overwhelming. Like you're trying to get to the NBA, you're trying to get to WNBA, you're trying to play D1 college ball. I understand sometimes that feels like a lot. But listen, you're not gonna, you're not gonna make that jump from now tomorrow to be to the league or being D1. So let's just slow down and focus on the whole journey. Enjoy where you're at right now, but don't get Too comfortable. You have to still keep working. You still have to make some type of progress and still keep growing. All you gotta do is think about this. If I, the minimum I can do today is get 1% better. You winning? Because there are some people gonna take step backwards. There are some people that's going to stop and just be equal, but technically you're not going to be equal because I'm getting better than you. So it means you fail backwards now. And so you got to get 1% better because it's, it's a, it's a slow grind from from where you're at now to where you want to get to. You don't have to worry about taking, taking over the world in one day. Just take over step by step, one piece at a time. 1% better. It's a whole journey, okay? You, you got this goal that just hanging over you, weighing you down. But this goal, the end destination, it's not going to change. So you have to appreciate the journey and taking steps to get there. You're a marathon runner, but the whole marathon is about focusing on that next step. So I need you to go ahead and look at whichever one you want. You can get this one or the other ones, but I need you to get, get this reminder for you. Get to get you a hoodie, a T shirt, whichever one, as a reminder that progress is my only goal. And progress don't mean I'm perfect. Progress don't mean I'm there. Progress means I'm getting better. Because better and better adds up to being the best you that you can be. But the best is not existing because you're always going to get better. So get you this peaceful reminder right here to say, hey, all I gotta do is be a little bit better, 1% better, and I'll get to that goal at some point. Remember, it's about the entire journey and not just the end goal, because progress is on the go. All right. What did you say? Habits. So lately I've been like nerding out on habits. That sounds weird that I said it out loud, but it makes sense. So just like knowing how important discipline is like, and understanding that discipline is really just like a build up of habits. Like when you get to where you can do good things as second nature, you have to think about it, which is basically my definition of what habits are. You become disciplined at it. So like, how, how can you build those simple, like what are some habits that a player should introduce into their life and how can they integrate them to where it's like not a big fight. And on some of it will be a fight. But like what is something they can do to make it, you know, applicable to the light? That's a big question. I use that one. So they can apply it to their lives.

Yeah, well, so there's a great book on this called Atomic Habits by James Clear. Maybe you've read it. But it kind of breaks down a lot of the really good science about habits. But I think the, the core pieces are start small, right? So come up with something that you want to do and just get started. You don't have to like, like often people think about like, oh, I want to meditate, so I need to meditate for 20 minutes a day. It's like, no, you can meditate for two minutes a day as a starting point, right? So start step one is just start small. Step two is pair it with something that you do regularly, right? So like we all do basic things. Brush our teeth, take a shower, drink water, watch tv, whatever. Like there's a lot of list of things that are already actually habits that we have, right, that we could just simply pair, right? So hey, every time there's a commercial break, I'm going to get up and I'm going to do five jumping jacks, whatever it is, right? Like if that's a habit you want to build, just pairing the new behavior, the new habit with an existing habit and using that as a cue to engage in the new behavior can help you make that habit a bit stickier, right? So you're not just trying to figure out where in my day do I meditate? But it's like, okay, every time when I wake up, I meditate for two minutes. Now all of a sudden you've got a really clear signal when if this, then that, right? You've created a rule basically to follow for yourself. And then I think bigger picture is thinking about things like who do you want to become, right? Ultimately, like a lot of your habits are symbolic of the kind of person you're developing into. And so you can start to ask yourself things like what would a person who meditates do right now? Would they meditate or would they watch more tv? And if you can start to ask yourself those questions and find form it as part of your identity, it becomes much easier to make the habits sticky, right? And to make them something that's really a core part of the way that you operate on a day to day basis.

Okay? So I like that because I'm a big fan of like anybody that talks to me about stuff. I try to, like, reverse engineer. So, like, like you said, like, what is your end goal? What do you want to be at? And, like, let's start rewinding back from there to where we can build towards that. So whether it's this person you want to be, this is the player you want to have, whatever, we're starting with the end goal, and we're going to, like, reverse engineer from there. And a piece of that is visualization. So, like, explain more of that, because I listened to Huberman's podcast about that, and he just kind of, like, messed me up with that. I didn't finish the whole thing, but he kind of messed me up with visualization. So can you explain visualization to a better extent and help me with this? Because he kind of messed me up a little bit, so I gotta finish the podcast too, but we'll see.

How did he mess you up?

So first, the nugget that he had, it was like, you know how they always say the brain can't tell the difference between what's real and what's fake? So that. That was, like, the popular thing. And I was like, man, that's not true. Okay. Like, so now I have to, like, really do my own research now. Like, really figure it out. But that's the biggest thing that just kind of like, okay, maybe my whole life is a lie now. Like, this is.

Man, that's a. That's an extreme leap to take, buddy. Yeah, I mean, I. I think he's right. And so I think why that's important is actually kind of the same way. Like, people have taken growth mindset and made it, like, the single most important thing anyone can have. People kind of started to latch onto this idea of visualization. Oh, it's the same. You just do the visualization, and now that's your workout. And what's hard is we have a lot of data that shows that there's some similarities, Right? So there was a really cool study done where they asked people to imagine doing bicep curls, and their biceps actually grew, and they got stronger from simply imagining doing it, but it wasn't the same as if you actually went and did the curls. And I think that's the differentiator, right? So people assume, oh, I can just close my eyes and imagine doing bicep curls, and that'll be good enough. And it's like, well, it will be enough for some things, but it won't be the same as doing the thing. And I think that's an important distinction. So the way I think about visualization is it's kind of like mental practice, right? The idea is just to give yourself mental reps doing a specific thing, essentially, with the idea being that the more that you do it, the better your mental model will be of that specific behavior or activity or performance that you're doing. Right? So the better your mental model, the better your brain can perform under those conditions. But it's never going to be the same as doing it. You know, there's no amount of like imagining shooting a free throw you can do that'll give you the same practice as going out there and shooting 10 free throws. But that doesn't mean that it's not useful. Right. And I think that's the distinguishing part is just because it's not the same benefit doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Right. Sometimes when you're sitting on a plane at 1am and you've got 30 minutes to kill because you're waiting to get off, that might be an okay time to do some visualization, right. If you're pre game and you can't go out there yet because your teammates are shooting on the basket, might be a good time to do some visualization, get some mental warmup going. There's a lot of stuff that you can use it for. Just don't get it mistaken for the fact that it's the same. And I think as long as you have that understanding, you'll be all right.

Okay, so what is like the visualization process? So like, we're just sitting here visualizing free throws or like whatever you want to. So like, what would your suggestion be for how to go through the visualization process?

Yeah, so at a high, kind of high level, basic, simple way of thinking about it, I'd spend 30 seconds or so kind of relaxing, right? Just getting yourself into the here and now. So you might do some deep breathing, you might do some like a quick meditation. Just something that allows you to be a little bit more present, right. It's kind of hard to go from like, you know, transitioning out of a classroom and onto the basketball court, and now you're just sitting there visualizing, right? Like, you need to kind of get your mind warmed up the same way you get your body warmed up, right. You don't just like go out there and start running around and shooting. Like you stretch, you know, you do a light, lightweight stuff. So the breathing or, or meditation is sort of a lightweight warmup, Right. And then what I'd say is it's as simple as kind of Closing your eyes and trying to picture yourself as vividly as possible, executing the specific skill. Right? So if it's a free throw, you might want to imagine standing on the line, right? You might want to start by just imagining an empty gym so you're not dealing with. With distractions from the crowd or anything like that, right? And then actually seeing yourself go through your free throw routine, from placing your feet to bouncing the ball to positioning your arms to taking the shot. Right? And then ideally, seeing it go in, you know, and just doing that two or three times and then giving yourself a break, right? And then coming back to it again a bit later. That's kind of how I would think about doing it. Obviously, there's, you know, nuance and detail. You can. Can go into all of that. But I think at a simple level, it's relax, Pick the skill that you want to imagine, close your eyes, see yourself doing it successfully two or three times, and go on with your day.

He also says something about you don't want to do it for too long. I think he said like a couple minutes, like maybe five minutes, I think he said. So what would be, like, the time frame that a player should, you know, visualize for?

I think five minutes is good. I mean, look, you have different use cases for visualization too, right? So if you're doing visualization to relax, it can be helpful. If you can really vividly picture yourself at a beach, it might be helpful to do 10 minutes of just relaxing at a beach in your mind, right? But if you're trying to rehearse a skill or build a skill, five minutes is probably plenty. You know, there's no, like, magic number here, right? But it's hard to stay focused for much longer than that and kind of repeat the same thing over and over in your mind. And so kind of like regular practice, right? We're looking for quality, not quantity. And so if you can do 10 quality mental reps over the course of five minutes, you know, three times a day, that's pretty good. It's probably enough. It's much better than doing 100 reps in 100 minutes that are all low quality. Right. And so that's how I would think about it. There's no magic formula here for. For the right answer of how much you should do. I think it's really about being able to, again, see yourself do it well, build the model, be really vivid and intentional and high quality, and that'll get you much, much farther than the volume will.

Okay, so what is another habit that a Player could use. You know, we, we kind of touched on visualization, we touched on meditation a tiny bit. But like what's something else that a player needs to add into the game? Like what's, what's. Okay, let me ask you this. What is the thing that you see that is a popular thing on social media that you just like really guys, like come on, like this, this isn't, this is trash right here. Or it's just like misinterpreted. Like what's something that you see? It's just like I guess on your nerves type thing.

So many. That's like three questions in there. So can I answer all of them?

If you can, yeah.

Yeah, I think I can. So the first thing, you know, just to close the loop, like I'd say meditation would be the next skill. I think about building, you know, basic mindfulness. One or two minutes, focus on the breath, you know, focus on one single point. It's a really valuable skill. So it's kind of the foundational thing that I think it goes into mental performance because it's good for everything, right? It helps you be present, it helps you let go, it helps you process difficult emotions. It's just like, it's pretty valuable. And breath, breath work kind of as an adjunct is also useful. So those would be the other two skills I think about starting with then what I see on social media that is misunderstood or drives me crazy. There's two of these. So you're getting me on my soapbox here, but it's going to be worth it. The first is self affirmations, right? So you hear or see people like just love yourself. Just write on the mirror every day how amazing you are. Just tell yourself how great you are. And it's like eh, no, like one, we know that this doesn't work. Like there's tons of science that suggests self affirmations do not actually help you find, feel better about yourself and in fact can draw attention to the discrepancy between what you're telling yourself and how you actually feel. Right? So sometimes it can make you feel worse. So if you show up and you're like, you're the best person ever, you're so smart, you're so amazing. But like, I don't know, you kicked a puppy on your walk to work, right? Like it's going to be really hard to reconcile the fact that you kicked a puppy. And you're also telling yourself you're a good person and that gap is going to be distressing, right? And so I think self Affirmations have been given like a little pedestal to stand on and just, just love yourself and tell yourself you're amazing. It's like, actually would be better to be honest with yourself. And sometimes honesty hurts. But being honest with yourself is going to get you closer to performing well faster than telling yourself that you're amazing. Well, we're not looking for being delusional, we're looking for being accurate. And so self affirmations are a big, big no, no for me. The second one is growth mindset. And that's not to say I don't like growth mindset, it's just to say that it's really been overextended. Right? So people have turned it into, oh, just learn from failure. It's okay, just work hard, it's all going to be fine. And it's like, that's not true. Like, it's not all going to be fine if you work hard. Working hard is going to help, but you're going to need some other things. You're going to need some talent, you're going to need some luck, you're going to need some good timing, you're going to need help, you're going to need other people.

Right?

And then similarly, you're not always going to learn from failure. Sometimes you're going to fail and you're not going to learn anything. And so it's not always an okay outcome to fail. You know, sometimes you can't fail. I don't want my doctor in open heart surgery sitting here thinking, well, gee, you know what if I fail on this one, okay, you know, I'll learn something from this. Right. And so that like idea that this is just the way to live life is wrong. It's just wrong and it's not bad. It's just actually incorrect. Right. There are some times when failure is not a learning opportunity. And I think we have to just be a bit more nuanced in the way that we come to think about how we use these skills, what it actually means, what the science says is true and not overextended into these other ideas about how to live our best life.

That's funny because a couple years ago I read a book, I can't say the title of it, but because this is a family friendly show here, but it's the subtle art of not caring, you know? You know what I'm saying?

So Mark Manson's book.

Yeah, I gotta get more of his books because I like his style. But within that, he talked about how basically what you're saying how affirmations are kind of fluffy stuff. And it's like you're basically just trying to lie to yourself. And it's like, I think this analogy he gave was like, no pretty girl walks around telling herself that she's pretty. She just is. And so by you trying to make these affirmations and like you said, write stuff on a mirror, on the wall, whatever, you're trying to lie to yourself. And the brain has this, this filter that's like, you're lying. So whatever you're trying to get through this, this filter of your lies, it's like, whatever, and it's just trash. So how can we use affirmations to where we're not lying to ourselves and make it to where it's actually a functional tool to our mental health, mental performance?

Build evidence. I mean, that's the simple answer here, right? Like, make it so you're not lying to yourself, right? If you want to be a good person, do things a good person does, right? Whatever that means to you. If you want to be more confident, practice, right? Practice the skill so that you've got evidence that you can do the thing that's the best source of confidence you're going to get. It's not going to. Can come from psyching yourself up, right? But that's sort of like fleeting. But part of why practice is so useful is it helps you believe that you can do it because you've done it before. And so I think that's the way to make those affirmations positive is to literally stack evidence that suggests this affirmation is accurate. Right. What I think about myself is true. Not because I just thought this, but because I actually have proof I've done it. And that's how I would think about making affirmations a bit more valuable and sticky. But, you know, I'm sure there are other ways to do it too.

Yeah. Oh, growth mindset. So that's kind of a tough one, man, because I was thinking about that, like, how can. How can a player or anybody in general change their brain from a lack mindset to an abundance? Like you said, a growth mindset. From not being so negative to being more positive. Like you said, like, it's not just learning from fairies. And like you said, it's like not nuanced answers. So, like, what can we actually do to where we're in lack or we're in this negative mindset to where we're crossing that bridge and taking a journey over here to abundance and growth. So, like, what is the connection There to make it more applicable.

Well, what the data suggests helps with this is kind of three things. Two or three things. The first is a gratitude journal, right? So actively deliberately making note of things that you're thankful for every day is a pretty good way to stack evidence that things are good, Right. And that over time helps you see the world a bit more positively. The second thing is to do what psychologists call savoring, right? So this is the idea of enjoying the small moments, really soaking it in. Sometimes it feels like being in awe. Like when you see a pretty sunset or someone do something spectacular, like just being fully absorbed in that experience can be really, really useful. So those would be kind of two places I would start. And then I think third would be to, like, kind of connect with people around you, right? To express that gratitude to other people. So not I'm only grateful for the roof over my head and the food on my plate. But hey, I'm really thankful to you, Brian, for what you've done for me, and here's how you've helped me and this is what you mean to me. Those kinds of ways of communicating allow us to see the world a bit more brightly, which I think is really important. And then I think finally I'd layer in a couple of things, like hope. So looking forward to stuff in the future, Thinking about what's good that's coming next is really important. And then I think figuring out kind of like what it means for you personally to live a life of abundance, right? So starting to like, really dig into the assumptions that you make, right? So like classic ones are assuming that it's a zero sum game, right? There's like, the world has one pie and we're all just got to get our piece of the pie. And whatever I get, you can't get. And it's like, that's not really how the world works. But why do I assume that? What's driving that? What fear is causing that? So kind of unpacking some of that can work. On the other side of that, getting rid of that lacking mindset, that's.

That was a big thing for me because I was talking to somebody one day and it was like I was. I was basically telling them, like, I got to figure out how I can do this or this because, you know, money or whatever. And that's like, I get where you're coming from, understand, but just replace or within. I was like, figure out how you can do this and this. And I was like, you know what? You're a pretty smart guy. You Know, that just changed my whole perspective. Yeah, that was a funny one for me because it's so simple to where that small perspective shift just like changed everything. And I hate to say it, but, like, society, you know, programs us to think it's either A or B. It has to be Jordan or LeBron. It's like, why can't we have a collective of things? Why can't we have more? Why can't we just have abundance or growth mindset? So I want to get your thoughts on this. I never told anybody this, so, you know, just keep between you and me. They say yin and yang. Correct. Am I correcting that?

Yeah.

So we need the good and the bad. We need both. So how can we get to where we understanding of both? So, like, it's never yin or yang. They. I've never heard that in my life. So where did that come from? To where? Oh, never mind. Let's not go that deep. Let's not go that deep. I had to catch myself because I try not to nerd out too much, but I love it. Yeah, Maybe part two. We have to come back and do part two.

Let's do it, man.

So. So it's not that you're mentally weak. It's just that you don't really understand where your mental toughness is. You don't understand where exactly you're mentally strong at. It's even crazy. You probably don't even really understand what mental toughness actually is. Now, I don't blame you because usually we just have coaches yelling at us and fussing at us saying, hey, hey, hey, be mentally tough. You're being weak right now. You're being soft right now, but it's not the full scope and it doesn't give you any true understanding of what mental toughness is and how you can get better at it. And so I'm here to help you guys out because just imagine I gave you a pill right here in my hand.

Just imagine.

And within that pill, it gave you just a epiphany where you just. Brain just blew up and he's like, oh, my goodness, you got so much better understanding now. Your game just grows by 10x and you just a whole different person now, bro. I got. I got the pill for you right here. Never fear, bees. Mental toughness playbook ebook is here. So in this whole little playbook I got for you, just small little ebook, it breaks down the mental game of understanding what mental toughness is in different areas of wave and substance is and how you can actually grow it. And get better and enhance it. So, you know, look in the link, look in the description, and go ahead and purchase it and do yourself a favor by just understanding what mental toughness actually is and also understanding how you can actually grow it and what you need to get better at it. So just Mental toughness Playbook Smaller ebook I'm just trying to tell you, hey, can't say I didn't warn you. How can we get to the yin and Yang mindset, to where we see both and we see abundance? Because I know perspective plays a big role in that. So what can we do to, like, change the perspective deeper? Because I know you said gratitude and everything, but some people say, well, I try to be thankful and bad things keep happening, or I try to be nice to people and stuff keeps happening. So, like, basically, they're being stubborn on it. So, like, what does that stubborn person need to do to where. Change your perspective from that to this.

I wish I had the answer for how to do this exactly. And I apologize. You probably hear my daughter crying in the back.

You're good, man. Good.

She's getting ready to eat dinner and she's like, what's going on over here? But, yeah, I think, you know, it's. It's. In some ways the perspective exists in the question, right? Which is recognizing that it's hard to. Things wouldn't feel bad if we didn't know what good felt like, and things wouldn't feel good if we didn't know what bad felt like, if that makes sense. I think that's kind of like the origin of the whole Yin and Yang concept. Right? Is light within the dark and dark within the light. And so I think there's just an element of seeing those things as a little bit more interconnected that I think can be useful. But I think it's also important to just recognize, like, if you wait long enough, things will change.

Right?

Like, there's always. If you extend the horizon, whatever it is that feels really good or really bad, it's just going to be a blip on the radar. I mean, I remember when I was working with college students more like, you get. And maybe you had this experience, too. I know I did. Like, I'd go to a test in college and I'd fail, or I'd get a C or a D and I'd be like, my whole world is coming to an end. Like, I'm never gonna get into grad school. I'm just a total failure. Like, this is just bad. I'm not gonna amount to anything. Right. I told myself this whole story about what it means or meant to get a CD or ask. And then in my adult life, zero people have ever asked me about a single test grade I've ever gotten ever on anything. You know, but in that moment, it felt terrible. And so just kind of zooming out. Right. And putting it into that larger, wider lens of look like this is not. Whatever you're experiencing right now is temporary.

Right.

Both good and bad. And I think if you can lean into that, then it makes it a little easier to deal with the ups and downs of life, which are just natural. Right. There's no normal parts of being a person. We all have good things that happen and we all have kind of crappy things that we have to deal with.

Yeah. I remember someone saying, like, think about life as the seasons. You. You can't enjoy winter as much without the summer. You can't enjoy fall as much without the spring. And no matter what season you're in, it's going to have a time where it ends, a new season begins. So the more you're able to just accept it and just roll with it because no matter how hard you try, December is going to come. And with December comes that winter time and it's the cold. Especially with you being in Toronto. You, you. I'm sorry, man. I don't know how you do it.

But you get used to it after a while.

I'm from Alabama, man. Like, I'm. I don't know, I just, I'm from Arizona, so.

I hear you.

Never mind. You might be right, but. But no, it's just, just embracing the seasons and whatever life has because I'm already a pretty nonchalant guy. But the more I understood I can't control a lot of things, the more like, accepting I became of things. So, like, I can't be rocked too much. And it's like, you know, it just happens, you know, maybe it's the bad thing sometimes I should be more bothered by things, but overall it's just like, you know, it is what it is and I just kind of go with the groove of it. So, yeah, I think that's a, a fun, but kind of dangerous mind space to be in because, you know, it's flatline almost. I do have an aggressive side, do have downs, but it's never like too heavy to where I'm just like drastically all over the place, man. So I don't know, maybe I need to come and talk to you one day and you just help me out.

We're all Figuring it out, right? Like the whole goal is just for all of us to get a little better, a little writer in our own life every day. So I don't. There's not like a right or wrong to any of this stuff. To me, to me, it's all about what do you need, what helps you, you feel good, perform well, be the best version of yourself. So I'm here for you anytime, man.

I appreciate that, man. But zooming back to your level more to pro guys, there's two things I thought about while we were talking. So when you're going through your journey of a player, like you're helping them with whatever issue you see come to mind. So how do you script out their plans? Like as a trainer, I have an end goal for, let's say strength and condition that's a little bit easier to process. So you know you want a player to gain £20, right? He needs to put on some weight and needs to do mobility, whatever the. The goal is. So what does that look like for you to where we're journaling through or we're taking this journey from this player from off season, which is now for you guys to whatever. Like, what does that process look like to get them from A, to quote unquote Z?

Well, there's not like one set formula, right? I mean, everyone's path like for gaining 20 pounds even looks a bit different, right? Some guys need more food, some guys need more protein, some guys need more heavy lit, you know, so it's like kind of the same, right? Everyone's got different goals and different things they want to work on. So the, the first step is to figure out where are you now and where do you want to be, right? And then try to figure out how long will it realistically take to get there and make an educated guess. Right? So if I know your goal is to improve your 3 point shooting and you're not confident when you shoot the three, right now I know we've got to figure out how to build confidence when we're out there. And so then I can start to reverse engineer kind of like what you talked about earlier, right? Okay, this is where we're headed here. I think the steps that go in to getting to that outcome here are the skills that get us to those steps. Let's start training those skills and let's pick one. And I think what's a little different than strength and conditioning here though is I'm a big believer in kind of test and try before you buy. So like, kind of like strength and conditioning in the sense of, like, you know, I might put on £20 by lifting twice a week. Really heavy, right. Powerlifting, you might put on 20 pounds lifting four times a week for eight to ten reps, let's say, right? And the goal is just to figure out which one of those things. So for on the mental side, like, some guys, maybe they want to do meditation, maybe they don't want to do meditation at all. Like, there's a lot of tools and tricks to get to that point that you're working on. And so you've got to figure out, well, let's start with this one. Let's test it out. Let's see how you feel. If you feel good, let's iterate, let's keep going. If it doesn't feel good or it's not working, let's pivot. Let's try something new. And so you kind of build the plane as you fly it a little bit, but you've got a sense of where you're headed. And so that kind of North Star, that main goal, keeps you grounded in what you're working on, but you're trying different tactics along the way.

So what is the starting point look like? Do you just kind of like you said, like you said, you know, the direction you want to go down to, and, you know, at this point, you have an idea of where the starting block could be. So how do you subscribe or prescribe? You know, prescribe a certain thing to a specific player. So actually take me through a play. You don't have to name names. I know you can't take me through a specific situation with the player as vague a details you need to be to where it still makes sense.

Well, so I think, like, an easy example is to think about a player who wants to perform better under pressure. Right. So you know where you want to get. So then it's understanding, well, how do you perform under pressure now? Well, under pressure, maybe I get nervous, maybe I lose focus, maybe I'm easily distracted. Maybe I don't want the ball in my hands at the end of the game. Right. These are all kind of possible things. Then it's unpacking. Okay, well, tell me more about that. Right. What are the fears around making mistakes under pressure? What are your current strengths when you're performing under pressure? What are you most worried about under pressure? And really trying to paint a clear picture of how are we operating right now under those circumstances, and then trying to define what would it mean to actually perform better under pressure? Well, it would mean I make better decisions, or it mean I'm comfortable taking the last shot of the game, or it would mean I stay more focused in the last two minutes. Right. Lots of possibilities. But perform under pressure means. And so you're trying to kind of really clearly map out what's happening now and what would be different, where you want to go. And then you start to think about what skill will get me from here to there. And it's. In some ways, it's that simple. Right. And in other ways, figuring out what skill that is is hard, you know? So you use science to make an educated guess. Right. So say it's someone who. I get really distracted under pressure. Okay. Well, that's a good distraction is usually a good indicator for some. Something like mindfulness meditation. Right. Mindfulness helps us focus. It helps us stay present. So that might be the first thing we try. Hey, let's build up this regular mindfulness practice, because that's going to help you learn to stay more focused. If you're more focused, you perform better under pressure. Right. And we try that out. And suppose that works. Great. Now let's layer on the next skill. What happens if you get distracted? Even with mindfulness practice? What can you do to refocus? Oh, I can use this word to help me come back to the moment. I can tap my pant leg. I can push my feet in the ground. Lots of solutions, right? No one right or no one wrong. But let's come up with something we can do if we get distracted. Okay. Now we've got a plan to stay more focused and a plan to deal with distractions. Okay. Now, how do we get ourselves so that we feel energized under pressure? Well, that might be things like changing the way we think about stress or pressure. Right. So instead of seeing this as a threat, oh, my goodness, like, this is a big moment. We see it as an opportunity. Here's my chance to demonstrate a skill, to show something new. Right. These are little things you can do that will all sort of scaffold to that goal of performing better under pressure.

How do you feel about the turning nervousness to excitement idea? Are you a fan of that or. No?

There's a lot of science that suggests it works, so I am a fan.

I've kind of heard how that's not as true as we've made it seem. I'm not. I don't do the research, so I'm just kind of. I have ideas for stuff, so don't listen to me.

Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of it Is about how you choose to think about it, right? So I don't think it's effective to just always tell yourself every time you're nervous, like, oh, I'm excited right now. But I think what's more helpful is to. When you're feeling a rush of energy, right? Is to recognize what that is. So when people feel nervous, typically what that is is just your brain and body preparing you to do something hard. Right now you can choose to view that hard thing as an obstacle, as a problem, as a real threat to your existence, right? Like, oh my gosh, if I fail at this, I'm going to completely melt down, I'll never be successful. Or you can choose to view it as an opportunity. Hey, I have a real challenge in front of me. Let me show these people all I've been working on in the gym. Let me show these people how good my handle is. Let me show these people I can take a big shot under pressure, right? Those simple, subtle shifts in this is a threat or this is an opportunity or a challenge. That's where I think the magic is in turning nervousness to excitement. It's not just telling yourself I'm excited now. It's kind of the same thing as affirmations, right? So that's how I think about that, that sort of challenges. It's about finding the opportunity in those big moments to perform well.

Self awareness is in perspective. I think is. That might be the title. It's not gonna be a title. I need a better title that. Need something. Help me come up with a title for this because it's pretty good.

Thanks, man. I don't know, call it, call it something about performance, right? Peak performance, high performance, performance, mindset, whatever you want, you want to call it.

I, I'll think about it. You know, I got a little bit of time, but there you go. This is, this is. It's been really good, man. I think I, I can't say that, but I really, I think I enjoy talking to you so much because I know, you know, like level 10 stuff, but you make it so simple and so practical. And I'm a huge fan of people like that because I, I desire to be like that. I want to be like a guru, genius, monk type guy when it comes to training in the mental game and stuff, but make it seem like I'm the average man and just like, oh, all you gotta do is A, B and C and it's like, oh, he's a genius. So simple. But that's what you are in my mind, right?

Now, like, that's very kind of you. I wish I had that level of self confidence too. But I appreciate the kind words. I just do my best to make this stuff as accessible. Accessible as I can.

I mean, but that's kind of what your job is though, you know, to an extent. Because if you weren't able to break it down and make it make sense, I don't think you have a job in this field.

So I don't think so either.

Nah, man, this has been fun. I know you have daddy duty, you know, got you.

Yeah.

Your baby crying. So let's, let's get you out of here. But any closing words, anything you want to share with the people?

Well, first, thanks so much for having me. And I was serious. I'll come back and do part time with you anytime. And we can line it up where I don't have dad duty so we can, we can wax poetic for even longer because this was fun. You know, I think what I'd say in closing is just to take care of your mind, right? We all have been kind of conditioned to take care of our bodies, right? Exercise, eat right, sleep well, hydrate. But your mind kind of drives the whole machine, right? So take good care of yourself. Train your mind the way you train your body, you'll be on the right path to peak performance.

You just made me think of another question I wanted to ask you. But it's, it's okay. We're going to get out of here on that note. But I'll save it for part two, man. But there we go. This has been, this has been really fun, man. This, this is. I really enjoyed this conversation. Like, me too. I could probably talk to you for a good three hours and just next.

Time we'll do a three hour episode.

All right. I'll figure out what to do that I don't mind doing it, but just. They don't listen to that. I'm not trying to be Joe Rogan and, And he remained like they. They have some long episodes, man. I don't want to turn to them or be a Marvel movie type guy.

Like we can cut it into three different ones then.

Got you. We can do that. So we'll figure out a way to make it work, man. But this has been fun. Hopefully the listeners have enjoyed. Interviewers have enjoyed this too. And if you have, I need you guys to go ahead and subscribe like the YouTube watchers. Just the button is right there. I don't get why you can watch this and not see the button. Like right there. Like where it is, like, it's right there. So just press it for me because I got you PhD level education on this platform and you paid nothing. Like, I don't get how you just can't subscribe and press the like button. It's very simple. But maybe you can understand because you, you have the higher education to me, I don't understand. You know, maybe you understand why you don't do that.

I don't know. Just push the button, man. Just push the button.

See, I got it, man. With a PhD telling you what to do and hopefully you listen to him. You don't need me. So, people, anyway, I love doing this part so much, I don't know why. So anyway, you can follow me on all social media at B Ball Jones. That's B E Ball Jones. It's not B Ball. It's like B. Put that in there potentially so you guys know it's me and not just like regular basketball. Follow me on all social medias at B Ball Jones and follow our guests on Twitter. Man, this is a PhD level education right here, man. Like, this is, is some dope game and you gotta like, help them out, give them some love, go to the Raptors game, support the team and well get a passport and then go to Toronto and support the team there. But when it come to your city or nearby, support them there too, because, you know, that's what you should do. Help them out. Just say, hey, man, I saw you on the B Ball Jones podcast. You did a great, you know, job on there. And I'll find feel weird because I don't think that's ever happened. So that'll be dope for me too. But just tell them like, yo, I saw you, I saw you on the podcast and that was fun, man. You should come back and do like a part 3, 4, 5, and just, you know, we'll see what he says after that. Yeah, that's it, man. Follow him on Twitter and also on LinkedIn. This is the first, guys, this is the first LinkedIn reference we've had. This is like legendary and pretty groundbreaking, guys. I've never heard of LinkedIn. Follow him on LinkedIn and showing us some love. This has been fun. He has to go be a dad and not be mental performance coach right now. So we can take that hat off and switch over there, man. And it's been really been fun, man. Anything else you want to say before we get out of here?

No. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Look forward to part two.

I appreciate you coming on really means a lot. So that's it. See you guys next episode. Alex. All right, man. Have a good one. Get out of here.

See you.