Dr. Alex Auerbach on Maximizing Your Leadership Potential | The Highest Level Podcast with Evan Burk

Well, Alex, thank you so much for joining us, man. And I want to start with you had this career as a football coach formerly and now you work in sports psychology. And I want to know how has your view of coaching and leadership evolved over that time?

Yeah. Well, first, Evan, thanks for having me. It's exciting to do this with you. Obviously, we've known each other for some time, so it's cool to be a part of this journey with you. Yeah, I think when I started in coaching, I think a lot of my ideas around leadership were really around kind of providing direction, making decisions, sort of, I guess in a way, kind of being the all encompassing figure of an organization. Right. And like developing all the values and the deepest mission and guiding everybody. And it was, in a way, I think, very kind of directive the way I had it in my mind. And I think a lot of that was, you know, seeing these football coaches that I admired and how I perceived from the outside, they did things, you know, called the offense, called the defense, whatever it might be, and less of like the nitty gritty kind of details behind the scenes that I'm fortunate to see now. And as my career has changed, and I think as I become a sports psychologist now, the way I think about leadership is so much more relational and a little bit less directive and a little bit more guiding and kind of, you know, building a canvas for people and allowing people to paint outside the lines, but stay on the canvas kind of conceptually where people can sort of make the culture, make their role or whatever it is in an organization their own, while sort of understanding concepts around like commander's intent and these bigger picture things. And so to me, I think leadership a lot more now is about how do I use the relationships I've built with people to influence them positively, to help them be the best they can be, versus maybe leadership, back when I was thinking about coaching was like, how do I use this position to help people get what I need them to do? And I think those fundamental shifts have. Have played a big part in the way I think about leading people now.

Yeah, it's interesting when I look back at my coaching career as well, especially early on, I was trying to emulate a lot of people either that I had seen on television or that I had experienced their leadership firsthand. And I think that's important in leadership, in kind of like creating your own model. But it wasn't until many years later that I started to become more authentic in my coaching and in my leadership and developing those relationships. How have you seen Coaches that you've worked with or organizations develop those relationships with the players. Is there anything specific that stands out to you that some of the great leaders do in terms of developing those relationships?

I think the best leaders at developing those relationships make those relationships the priority and the center of the way that they move through an organization. So, you know, I think maybe Pete Carroll in Seattle is a great example from the outside looking in, where I think he leads with caring about his players. He leads with wanting to understand what motivates them, how they do what they do, what's important to them. And then the football stuff kind of comes after. It's not necessarily like, you know, here's the exact role I need you to play, and so I need you to do this. And then like, oh, by the way, tell me about your family. You know, it's sort of. It's inverted. And so I think, you know, first is like, kind of breaking through some of maybe the hyper masculine stuff that permeates sports and saying, like, yeah, relationships are actually really important, right? And the more I understand you and the more I care about you, the more I invest in you as a person, the more likely you are to actually want to reciprocate some of that and support me and support each other and grow together, right? And then the rest of the stuff we can figure out, like technical and tactical stuff, is, I think, probably comparatively easier to teach, right. Than really building a deep, authentic relationship. And building a deep, authentic relationship is maybe more vulnerable and more scary. And so I think it's. It's harder for people to lead from that place, I think, a little bit. But I think those who do a really good job, they say, like, that's the thing I care about the most. The rest of this stuff we'll figure out later. And, you know, I want to circle back to something you said because I know from your coaching career, one of the things I love that you did, which I could never bring myself to do, was you kept this notebook where you sort of wrote down, at least as far as I remember, you wrote down, like, things that you liked about each situation you were in and maybe things that you would do differently or things that you. You, if you were in that role, you would see yourself operating in a different way. And I'm curious for you if I'm tying it into this kind of like putting relationships at the center. Like, how did you start to come about maybe some of that type of thinking as you started to piece apart or pick apart what you liked, what.

You didn't like, yeah, I think that part of this is your evolution as a leader and as a coach. Right. Like, you see certain things and maybe you feel a certain way just naturally. And I think early on in my career, I was experiencing certain types of leadership, certain types of culture within programs and organizations. And you're right, I did take meticulous notes. I was always kind of taking down what I didn't like. And then, you know, as I started to have more and more experiences, I started to experience more of what I thought was things that I wanted to replicate in my own career and in my own coaching. And one of the things that really stands out early on is I remember this is, like, very early in my coaching career, there was a situation. A young man had a family member that was sick. He wasn't close to the university. He was close. Ish. But he was still going to have to leave for a couple of days in training camp to potentially go see this family.

And.

And we, like, the head coach didn't let him go see his family. And I just remember that because I, like, took notes on it, and I was like, wow, this seems kind of wrong. Like, why would we not let him go see his family? And I think looking back on that, like, my natural assumption was, yeah, let's let him go for a couple of days, and he'll be back. And it's not the end of the world. It's training camp. Like, we have four weeks before we play a game. But you get put in those situations as a leader, and the stakes are really high, and you have to win now, and you're trying to get everybody in line. And so I think a lot of that has to do with the pressure. And that's what I've seen, really, at the highest levels of sport is that I've worked with some people that I think are really good people, but I think the system and the pressure that is created just consistently on a daily basis makes them make decisions that maybe aren't in line with their personality. And I think that's a problem. I mean, I think that, like we spoke about a moment ago, authenticity is so important. And you mentioned Pete Carroll, and I think of people like David Shaw and Dabo Sweeney that just kind of have this way. People call them players coaches. I don't really think they're player coaches. I think they're real human beings, and I think the players gravitate towards that.

I could not agree with you more. I mean, what resonates for me with what you're saying is and maybe this is a way, I haven't thought about it, but it's sort of emerging as we're talking about it. In terms of leadership, as you know, from a young coach perspective to slightly more mature sports psychologist perspective is like. I think a lot of what I saw is similar to which. And I can think of a situation almost exactly like the one you're describing with a coach where I have the same conversation as a sports psychologist at that point though. And I think, yeah, the pressure is part of it. But ultimately, I think sometimes real leadership is about doing what you need to do for somebody else to be the best they can be. It's not about asking somebody else to do what you need them to do for you, right? And so the more you can lead with the other person first, the more you can put somebody else's needs above your own, even in those high pressure situations. That's, to me what real leadership is all about. And we can certainly think of more recent and relevant colossal failures of this at a massive, potentially national level, depending on the way you lean. But I think there's a real, I think pressure is a big part of that, right? Like when people are stressed or feel under pressure, there is a tendency to try to take care of yourself first. And I think the ironic part of that is actually, again, the more you put somebody else first, the more likely it is that that person actually wants to help you and wants to succeed. And I think about this a lot in terms of like, trust. That's a big thing that comes up a lot in leadership or relationship building. It's like, well, do I trust you? And so, you know, even in sports, like a lot of times people behave in ways where, you know, the common thing is like, well, you got to earn my trust. It's like, well, if you behave like I need to earn your trust, I'm actually less likely to act in ways that are going to make you trust me. Because at the end of the day, we're just both humans, like, we're both equal. And so if you act this way, you're not sending signals to me that I should trust you, right? And so now I'm going to be guarded, now I'm going to protect myself, now I'm going to respond differently to pressure. Whereas if I just gave you my trust and act like you deserved it, you're much more likely to behave in ways that keep me trusting you than you are to break that trust. And so I think those are some of the ways I start to think about this. Relational dynamic and the pieces of leadership is like, I had that same conversation. I was very fortunate that luckily our coach at that point decided that it was in the athlete's best interest, after probably four hours of debate, to let him go home. But now, of course, you know, whatever, five years later or four years later, now that relationship between that athlete and that coach persists. It's like one of the strongest relationships that. That they have. And I think that's a reflection of, like, I care about you. I'm putting you first instead of, well, like, the team really needs you. I need you to win. Like, in my mind, the team needs you to be the best you can be. If you got to go to this family thing because that's going to help you be the best you can be, then that's what we should do. If the team needs you, because I need you and I don't want to lose, that's not going to get it done.

Yeah. And you talked about team trust or you talked about building trust. And I immediately start thinking about building trust within a team. And specifically Frank Ganz when he came to smu. Frank Ganz was a longtime special teams coach in the NFL and came out of retirement to work with the SMU football program in 2008. And we had been really, you know, we hadn't won. We had been losers. We hadn't won at any type of. We didn't even had a winning season in like 30 years since the infamous death penalty. And we used to always talk in our coaching staff meetings about, like, we have to develop the habits that are going to lead to winning before we can win. And one of the things that we did was we had a drill we ran every single day. And it was called coverage drill. And it was very basic in terms of football. It was like running down the field and like breaking down and making a tackle. Something that sounds like very fundamental, but that a lot of players, even at the NFL can't do really well. And so we were running this drill every single day. And I thought it was really interesting. In the coaching staff meetings, Coach Ganz used to talk about some of the guys that were walk ons that were not star players on the team that did the drill really well and how he was going to start spotlighting them in our team meetings. And it was like a subtle way of reinforcing who you can trust on the team. And I always kind of think back to that where it's something that behind the scenes you see and you're like, wow, that is Great. You're not showing every single play. You're not just showing big hits.

You.

You're showing the guys in that room who they can trust subliminally, subtly. What have you seen in your career in terms of building that trust, whether it's on a team level or on a personal level?

I'll start with the personal level first. I think. I mean, to me, I think there are a few things that really work for building trust. Maybe I'll think of a couple more as we talk about it. But I think number one is consistency. And I don't necessarily mean consistency. And you show up the same way every day. I think people inherently have some variation in their behavior. We don't feel the same every single day. We wake up. We don't sleep the same amount every night. We don't have the same life circumstances every day that we show up to work. And so it's a little bit unrealistic to ask people to show up and be the same exact person in the same exact way every single day. But I think people who do show up consistently in some way, and I think in that way are putting other people first or inquisitive about others, curious, open, you know, kind of leading with the fact that relationships matter. I think if you can do that consistently and sometimes that can look or sound different, I think that's one. One way. So, for example, like, if you're a person who's having an off day, one way to show up consistently in that moment is to actually just tell people, hey, I'm having an off day right now. Like, I don't know. I don't know that I can do this, or I don't know that I can have that conversation or make this decision today because I don't know that I'm going to make the best decision. So can you work with me? Right. That's, to me, consistent with showing up a day when you feel great and being like, hey, this is an awesome opportunity. How are you feeling? Like, oh, you feel good? Okay, let's see what we can do today. And so I think just consistently working with other people and having those conversations, showing up, I think matters. I think the second dimension that's important is leading with some degree of vulnerability. Right. Everyone has different levels of comfort with sharing who they are, sharing something about themselves. And, you know, it takes time, I think, to build that level of security or comfort in sharing. But I think vulnerability really begets more vulnerability. And that's where, like, trust comes from in my mind, is this kind of idea that, like, at the end of the day, we both are probably struggling with similar things, right? Humans have generally similar needs, and so sort of working our way into where we can connect is an important part of trust. And then I think safety is probably the last thing, and that maybe bridges nicely into the team element for me, which is like, safety in individual relationships is all around, like, you know, for me, it's. I know that you're going to take care of me if I need it, right? And not take care of me in the sense of, like, bring me water, bring me food, but take care of me, like, protect me, look out for me, help provide me guidance, and that if I share this information with you, that you're going to use that information to help me versus hurt me. And so then when I think about it at the team level, I think of this concept of, like, psychological safety, right? Which is that people feel safe to show up, take risks, share something, try a new idea out, and they're not going to be punished for it. Right? And that can be, you know, on a basketball court, it might look like, you know, taking a big shot, even if you're not, quote, unquote, the guy that's supposed to take that big shot. But do my teammates trust me enough or trust you enough to do that? I think that's. That's one thing. I think consistent consistency is probably similar here too, right? Like, knowing what you can expect from your environment, getting a sense of what to look for in the teammates around you, I think can be. Can be really important. I think some level of group vulnerability is important. And then I think, you know, I think there's kind of like a. Maybe the last element that cuts through both dimensions to me is probably like this honesty and integrity dimension, which is like, you're not going to BS me about what's going on, right? You're going to tell me what I need to know. And I think in sports, we often underestimate the degree to which players want, like, real, direct, honest feedback about what's going on. They don't necessarily want things to be sugarcoated. Like, I think people really want to hear. And the way I always think about this is like, you're doing other people a disservice if you're not being honest with them. Right. And you can be honest and tactful, and that can work really well. Or you can be honest and blunt, and that might not be so good, but there are still ways to deliver feedback in using language that other people can hear. And I think that comes with, like, knowing people. And the integrity piece, I think touches on this consistency or ties it all together. It's like, I do what I tell you I'm going to do, right? And if you know that I'm predictable because I'm telling you I'm going to do this and that I consistently do that thing, that to me is that integrity that makes it possible for me to trust you, buy into you a little bit more, buy into the team, all of those things. What about you?

Yeah, you came back to honesty. And that was the thing that I wrote down that I 100% agree with this. I mean, this is so big. And I think this is also an example of something in my evolution as a leader that drastically, drastically changed from early coach Evan Burke to now where just understanding exactly what you just said, that people want you to be honest with them. You know, especially if you're in a high performance environment like a business or sports where everybody wants to perform at their highest level. And a lot of times that takes honest feedback. That takes also being honest with yourself. And I think that this is a really big thing. And I've done this plenty in the transition that I've made from football coaching now to executive coaching and consulting. And you have to be honest with yourself in terms of where are my strengths, where are my weaknesses, and am I doing things that align specifically with my strengths and maybe kind of doing my best to hide my weaknesses or improve my weaknesses. And this is something that I think that I've seen specifically in the organizations that tend to excel is they do a really good job of looking at themselves after a game, after a season, and truly being honest about what's happening, why they win, why they lose, and what's going to lead them to success in the future. Right now, you know, we're in the NFL off season, everybody's kind of making moves and everybody's talking about all the quarterbacks, right? Like, where are the quarterbacks going to end up? Is this guy going to come back to this team? Is, is this guy going to get traded? And you know, some of those organizations, they need to have like really honest conversations with themselves. And they've probably already done this and say, okay, does this individual really take us to the future that we are trying to get to? Like, is this the best path to realize our vision of success? And I think that we'd all be shocked at how many teams don't do that, actually. And I think we can look through the last, specifically with the NFL, the last 20 years of people that just seem to make decisions. I remember head coach, after he'd been fired, telling a story about how they drafted a guy, number eight overall and they never met him, they'd never talked about him in pre draft meetings, but they just didn't know he was going to be there, so they picked him. And I think there's a lot of things that happen and if you don't, if you don't kind of take the time to look at situations or events as they unfold in real time after the fact and say, okay, like, you know, why is this happening? I think that's a huge failure if you don't take that time, like you said, to be honest with yourself.

I think to your point, I think in thinking about leadership and one of the things that I have done personally to improve my leadership and this is constant, is this self reflective practice you're describing that can be at an individual or team level. And sports is certainly guilty of this where I've often heard the sentence like, well, things just move so fast, we don't really have time to reflect. I'm like, well, how do you know you're not just repeating the same mistakes you've made over and over again? You know, if you're never pausing to learn from yourself or what you've done, or hear the feedback from somebody else, or really sit with a decision that you made and evaluated it, like how do you know? How do you know you're heading down the right, the right path? And I think that's a very, it's a slippery slope, it's a dangerous game to not, not practice that.

You know, when I, I think this was around 2014, I was finishing up my master's and I had been introd to a book called Mindset by Carol Dweck. Obviously a book that you're very familiar with working in sports psychology. And as I was reading this book, I was almost upset that I had not been introduced to it earlier and the teachings in it and growth. Mindset is a lot about your own personal self talk and how you view certain events that happen. How do you view your success? How do you view your failure? And that book dramatically changed how I viewed myself as a leader and how I viewed my coaching. And I just felt, as soon as I was reading it I was like, this needs to be taught to every single team. This needs to be kind of, you know, first year freshman in college class talk about how maybe some coaches and leaders out there can maybe implement this within their teams. Because I know A lot of times you're having a lot of people come together, different backgrounds, people that view failures as the absolute worst thing in the entire world, as opposed to opportunities to improve. And so do you have. Does anything come to mind when you think about a collection of people and trying to build that growth mindset?

For sure. I mean, I think you're right on something in terms of leadership being really important in terms of developing and kind of cultivating a growth mindset across people. Right? Like if. If teams or groups hear one consistent message and hear what's valued from the leader, it becomes much easier for people to kind of adopt that. Right. Versus, like, asking people to figure it out on their own. So I definitely think there's. There's merit to the leadership, you know, sort of sharing that message. I mean, I think, you know, the big things, when I've worked with coaches or other leaders around kind of implementing some of this is shifting the attention away from the outcome, which is what often gets noticed first, right? The score at the end of the game, you know, how many wins or losses in a row, and focusing really around things that people can't control. Right? So there's a lot of attention paid to in the literature that this book is based on around, you know, kind of like giving great effort. And I think effort is a big piece of this growth mindset attitude, right? Like, how much do you explain the outcome of what's going on by effort versus talent? Right? That's sort of like the fundamental paradigm here, but I think you can extend that a little bit further, which is to say, like, there are other things within your control that do facilitate some type of growth mindset, right? So, like effort, attitude, focus, energy. Those are things that if you start to put attention as a leader on, how are we showing up today? Not what did we get done today, or how productive were we, or how many papers did we turn in? Or what grade did we get or what score was it? No. Did we show up and did we play the best game that we could? Did we give our max effort? Did people play their role the way they were supposed to play? I think those sorts of things are really simple ways to start to build a sense of a growth mindset within an organization or within a team? And it's really. It's not to say that the outcome doesn't matter, because I think in almost every arena, like, there is a reality that wins and losses do matter, but it can coexist. Right? And so one thing people often lose is they focus so much time on the outcome. Right. That they forget to emphasize these other process elements that contribute to the outcome. And I think just a subtle shift, which is to sort of down, not downplay, but lessen the importance of the outcome and increase the importance of the process. And the focus on these controllable dimensions, I think is really important. So that's step one. And then I think the other thing I would share would be, you know, people tend to do well with adopting this kind of mindset stuff if we start to talk about, talk about it in terms of identity instead of a place to, you know, instead of a thing that we do and subtle difference. I'm going to try to tease it apart a little bit, but I guess to me it's like I saw this great meme or tweet or something yesterday that was basically like, you know, instead of telling kids like, oh, I'm so proud of you for xyz, it was like, well, ask the kid, like, how did it feel to do xyz? What does it mean to you to be a helper versus great job helping or good sharing little things like that. And I think James Clear was wrote an atomic habit, something very similar along these lines, which was just like, rather than give people advice or coach people on an outcome, teach people to ask better questions. And those questions become really great guides for how people can show up in the world. And so as a coach, you could start to think about this. Instead of asking like, well, what happened on that game winning shot or why do you think we lost? It's like, what did you think you did? Well, what would it be like to show up as the most engaged person today? What do you think you could do to be the best, the max effort player that we need and get other people to think about that in terms of who they are and less about these other dimensions? I think works well.

It's so funny you say this. This is like what I had just written down to kind of like get to. And you kind of like stole my thunder there. Ale I was going to talk about the power of asking questions. And this has been an evolution. This is since I've left football coaching, right. Like, I did not know a whole lot about this, but I think as I've started to do more one on one coaching with sports leaders and executives, two things that I've really had to improve in my own coaching and that I teach is active listening and the power of asking questions. And a lot of this is about going back to the relationship piece. It's a lot about like having genuine interest in the people that you work with and the people that you lead. And the power of asking questions, you know, you were asking about, like how it felt, you know, asking these reflective questions, as opposed to the directive approach to leadership and coaching is so powerful. And I work with a lot of teenagers, and teenagers are very difficult to talk to on a daily basis to get any type of full sentence out of. And one of the things that I've had to really develop over the last two plus years is I've consistently been working with these teenagers, and I'm talking kind of high school age here. We're talking like 15 to 18, is you have to be really good at asking questions. They're not going to share anything that you want them. Two, you're going to have to kind of coax it out of them a little bit. And you have to be good at asking those reflective questions, like you just said. And that's been a challenge, but a fun challenge. And I really wish I would have known that when I was coaching. Like, I didn't understand the true power of learning, just how important those questions were in, number one, getting to know your players, and number two, getting to getting them to think a little differently about the processes and like you talked, about the things that lead to winning as opposed to just the outcome.

100%. I think, you know, to your point, people often confuse leadership with needing to have all the answers. And I think that that's a point where people struggle a lot, right? Because it's impossible to know everything. You're not going to have all the answers. But showing up in ways that communicate this sense that you feel like you have to, in a lot of ways, ends up undermining people's leadership. Right? And so there is real merit to thinking through what you can learn from other people about how to get the most out of them. You tell me, Evan, how can I help you be the best you can be? Not if you do this, Evan, you're going to be the best podcast host of all time, the best executive coach of all time. Right? Those little subtle differences can go a real long way in helping maximize our leadership potential.

And this kind of brings something else that I wanted to touch on with you. And I'm just curious if you have thoughts. And one of the things I've been thinking a lot, especially as I've transitioned out of the football coaching world, is coaching staff development. And somebody in particular, Bill Belichick, who is obviously regarded as one of the greatest coaches in his sport, if not Modern coaching. He does a really great job of developing young assistants. And I think part of this is challenging them in their roles to kind of start thinking about future roles. And I think part of this also is like leading by example. They're kind of getting a master class in leadership and organization building from him. And I'm just curious where you see in your work and I know you've worked extensively in big time college and pro sports, like where do you think coaches are lacking and where do you think some improvements can be made? In addition to kind of like the listening and question asking piece?

The biggest place for me right now that I see that coaches can improve is starting to think of yourself like a high performer. So what I mean by that is like we set up the environments, especially at the pro level, but I think as best we can at the college level too, to basically help the players like perform optimally on game day. Whether it's game day every two days like it is right now in the NBA, or game day every weekend like it is in college football. But coaches, for whatever reason don't seem to apply that same sense of logic to themselves. And so I think that that's really a place for coaches to start to think about how they develop and what they do. Right. And I think it is intentional. Right. So if you think about training an athlete to peak and be their best on game day, right. What do we do? We set aside time for physical training. We set aside time for sleep. We set aside resources for nutrition. We hire folks like myself for resources around mental health and wellness and mental performance. Right. We structure the environment so there's time for them to achieve the things that they need to achieve that could interfere with or take away from performance on game day. Right. So there's less to worry about. We provide them with different resources or access to other experts. Right. Or other things of interest so that they can explore life outside of sports so that that's not sort of constantly nagging at them. Right? So there's all these things we do culturally and environmentally in sport to promote the athletes showing up. And we don't really do much if any of that for coaches. So coaches are the first to choose to sleep deprive themselves. Even though you basically get paid to make decisions, Right. Like you are not going to make great decisions sleep deprived. It's just not possible. Maybe for one day, sure. But the chronic sleep deprivation I see in coaching. No, Right. Like just, I don't care who you are, it's just not happening for you. Right. And if you're making good decisions, imagine how much better your decisions would be if you actually slept. You know, there's. There's no, you know, diminishing return on sleep. Similarly with nutrition, similarly with mental health, physical health. Right. We just let some of those things go because the attention is really paid again on the outcome. Right. And so much less focus and emphasis is placed on, like, people feeling good, showing up positively to work, you know, being the best that they can be. And so I think that's a little bit backwards. And I would really encourage, you know, coaches who are trying to develop to, like, seek out a coach like yourself, seek out a therapist, you know, seek somebody out that can help you learn more about yourself, that can ask you different questions, that can help you take care of some of these things outside of your work so that you can show up and be. Be the best you can be. So that's one thing. And then I think the second thing I'd like to see, and just from kind of thinking about my experiences maybe over the last five years, is there's a lot of resistance, I think, you know, subtly, to kind of, for lack of a better phrase, like, the way kids are these days. You know, like, in my day, we drank salt, you know, we had salt tablets at practice. It's like, yeah, it's fine, but it doesn't matter, right? So, like, nobody cares that that's what happened, you know, and it's not relevant anymore. So instead of sort of fighting with today's modern athlete and, like, why are they more emotionally intelligent or what is it about these other things that are so important? Like, why are they focusing on that instead of resisting that? Like, embrace that as part of the fabric of things changing. And I think if you can find ways to do that, like, we all have bits and pieces of that in ourself, right? We all want to be connected to other people, coaches included. So tap into that and then use that to connect with these athletes that you have versus sort of thinking about it, like, well, it's a weakness that they, you know, are more on social media or more this or more that. Like, yeah, sure, there are different distractions, but ultimately, it's more effective to learn how to work with those things than it is to resist or sort of push against those as, like, well, that's not the way we should do it. So I would think those. Those would be a couple places where, you know, I would really encourage coaches to think about their own development. And that's maybe broad, but I think important. I think that those two things will make everything else in terms of, like, technical skill development much easier. Right. Like, it's easier to be a great communicator when you're fully functioning and slept well. Right. It's much harder to do that if you slept three hours for the last four nights and you're not sure which way to put your pants on in the morning. Yes.

I mean, I could literally talk for four hours on the inefficiencies that I seen in my coaching career. And you're right. Like, the decision making is such a huge part. And I don't think a lot of thought goes into what actually leads into those decisions or what's going to create the environment for me making the best decisions. And a lot of this conversation has been around coaching and leadership. And I just want to hear from you if you think a lot of what we're talking about is leading a group of people. And I wonder if you have a feeling strongly if there are different characteristics for players that are leaders versus coaches that are leaders, do you see a big difference or do you really see them as really very similar in terms of the characteristics?

That's a really good question. I don't know. I don't know. I think it depends to me, I guess, what I think about. Well, for both aspects, I think there's some parallels. But in terms of the team leadership, one dimension that I think is a little different is, you know, as a player, like at this level, for example, you don't necessarily get to pick your teammates. Right. Whereas coaches get to kind of pick who they work with. Usually, sometimes it's a little bit more restricted, but there tends to be more freedom in that regard. And so I think, you know, if you're a coach, you can be really strategic about who you surround yourself with, and that can make a really big impact on the way you show up as a leader. Right. So if you have, you know, if you're, say, a coach who perceives themselves to lead by example and you're not a real vocal person or you're not a person who likes to like, rah rah and cheer, that's like, fine. So surround yourself with a couple people who do like to do that for the players that do need that energy or do want to engage that way. So I think that part is a little different. Whereas for players, it's like, well, you kind of have to figure out, like, you know, what role can I play? What do my peers need? Right. So that's one thing too, is like, you're still peers as a player to player. Right. Even though there might be one player who has a little bit more status or power, has been around a little bit longer, whatever. Like, ultimately, we still show up and play the same game. Whereas coaches, like, you're not necessarily peers with the players, right. You are in some ways in charge of the players. You're in some ways more in charge of your staff. So I think those two elements would be a little different. But in terms of characteristics, I mean, to me, I think you can be a great leader without needing to be any one type of person. I think the. Maybe the things that we need are leaders who are willing to stretch themselves, challenge themselves to lead differently based on who is around them. And that doesn't mean be inauthentic, but it means, like, you know, if I'm thinking about maybe some teams that I was on, like, I'm not really a rah rah person, but if I lose all the rah rah teammates, maybe I need to adopt that for a little bit. Right? Or maybe I need to stretch myself or push myself to adopt some of that role. And I can still do that in an authentic way. Right. Doesn't mean I show up every day with, like, pom poms and I'm cheering like that. But it does mean that I might have to say more, you know, speak up more. And so I think, like, some of leadership is about figuring out what the people around you need and sort of pushing yourself and stretching that role. And so to that point, I don't know that there's like a course. I don't know that. I believe there's like a core set of characteristics that leaders need to be successful or that differentiate players versus coaches. I just think some of the dynamics around leading from a coach perspective or a player perspective are a little different.

Yeah. I think that when I think about it in terms of players specifically, you know, you don't have to have the burden of creating the culture. Like you said, you're more accepting a role, whatever that is on the team. And the way that I think about it from a player's perspective is just being a positive leader. And maybe if we're breaking it down a little further, a positive influence, right? Like, I don't need you to be the rah rah guy. I don't need you to be everything. But I do need you to show up in a positive way with a positive mindset, regardless of kind of like what your role is on the team. Right? Like, you might just be a leader of a Specific position, group, or you might kind of speak for everybody on the team. But I kind of think of it in maybe a more just kind of like basic term of like, leading by example. And I think if you are a leader and you're kind of creating that team or you're creating that culture, you want those positive influences on your team. This goes back to, like, what you were just saying, surrounding yourself with the right people and you are who you surround yourself with. And this is like a core life lesson that I learned as I grew and developed. And I think this is so fundamental in terms of building quality teams and something that I think is not talked about a lot in coaching. You know, we were talking about, what can coaching staffs do better? How can they better develop? Well, head coaches need to get better at hiring. This is something that is never talked about. We talk about player evaluation, and I know you and I are going to visit on this here in a couple of weeks, but nobody ever talks about acquiring coaching talent or acquiring other staff members. Nobody ever talks about, oh, well, the video guy or the equipment guy or the secretary. Like, you better be very intentional about the people you are bringing into your organization. Regardless of what they do or how much impact they have on the bottom line, everybody you bring into that organization has an effect on that culture. So if that's the case, why would you not go the extra length to really examine what the intangibles are, what the positive qualities are? Also understanding the weaknesses of everybody that you bring into your team. You do that with players, especially at the highest levels. Why would you not do that with everybody that steps foot in your building? And I think that's a place where a lot of these colleges and pro teams could really do a lot of improvement. I mean, Urban Meyer goes out and hires this strength coach who was just fired for, I think, insensitive racist remarks at his former college. And to not have kind of like the wherewithal, number one, that that's going to be an issue within your locker room is troubling. And the fact that he would just say, oh, well, I've known this guy for 20 years, so it's good that's an issue. And have a lot of respect for Coach Meyer and what he's done in terms of football coaching. But that's an example of, you know, kind of the good old boy network and, oh, I know this guy, so I'm going to bring him in. Or Alex vouched for him. Like, who are you bringing into your organization? And if that's not at the forefront of every talent acquisition that you make, regardless whether it's a player or a staff member. You're selling yourself short in terms of your culture building.

You are. You're preaching to the choir, man. There's so much here that I agree with. And actually, I was thinking about this this morning because I was wondering, like, how do we get coaches to hire more people that tell them no? How do we get coaches to not want to surround themselves by people who just make their life easier? And I don't know. Right. Because there's probably some merit to having the coaches that make your life easier or that, like, help you get what you want done. But there's also merit to having someone who will challenge your conventional way of thinking, who doesn't do it the way that you do it or who won't buy into, like, well, this is just the way we've always done it. And, you know, you've. I've heard certainly, or read about these, you know, famous companies that have really done a great job of promoting that kind of culture. So, like, I know when Steve Jobs was in charge of Apple, each year he would promote somebody who actively challenged him in a meeting because he valued that somebody would stand up to him and not just say, yeah, whatever you say, Steve, it's all a great idea. No, Steve Jobs has bad ideas, too. Right. Or if I think of Bridgewater, the hedge fund in Connecticut, I think they value radical transparency. And, you know, Ray Dalio is a big fan of employees copying everybody on emails telling him this is a terrible idea. And I think, you know, the people who are most invested in getting as close as possible to, you know, capital T, objective truth, really value people that just tell them no or look for different things. Right. And so those people, when I say, like, objective T, truth, I'm looking for people who just, like, want to be the best they can be. It's not about having it to be my way. It's about what is the best way to get the outcome that we want. What's the best way for us to work together. And often different perspectives are a really important way of getting closer to that sense of truth or what's going to be best. Right. And if we're only going one person's way, say, a head coach's way or a manager's way, Right. Chances are we're missing a lot of other people who don't see it anywhere near that way. And so actually, like, if you're a coach working with a team of, say, 110 college football players. Right. Like, it would be valuable for you to hear somebody tell you no because there's probably a good faction of your team who's going to say no to the very things that you're going out there and speaking about. And so I don't know that I have an answer to this, but I would love to figure out how do we get coaches to think about that? Right. And think less about like, you know, to your point. Well, I've just known this guy for 20 years. Like, yeah, why not bring in somebody you've literally never met? Because that perspective would be valuable. It comes back to, you know, coaches give a lot of reasons why, well, I don't trust them. I don't know how they work. Like, okay, that's what a hiring process is for. That's what an interview process is for. Right. And coaching is so, you know, fast paced and quick to turn over. Like, there's not one of us who's worked in sports who's foolish enough to think that if you hired someone today, you couldn't fire them tomorrow if you really didn't like them. Right. And so I think that's sort of a cop out excuse for not wanting to really examine some of these beliefs that we hold and not wanting to think through it more quickly. There is one thing you said that I would push back on a little bit though, before the coaching piece, which was I do think the right players, the right athletes, if empowered the right way, can actually build the culture. And I think it might be better if athletes build the culture than if coaches build the culture. If coaches can accept that the athlete's leadership in that place is more valuable. It's an idea I've been playing with a little bit, but I think there's a lot of responsibility put on coaches to craft the culture, shape the culture, or managers or leaders to shape the culture of their team. But it sort of misses the values that those people inherently already hold. And so if there's a group of people that can come together and create a consensus around our values and our culture without one person giving the directive, I think there's actually maybe more power in that. Right. Because now this one person can say, like, yeah, I kind of like that, or I don't like that, or here's what I change. And then it becomes this collaborative mutual process where sort of coach and players or manager and staff agree on what's the way that we're going to do business, that's the way we're going to go about it. And that can alleviate some pressure on both parties. And now everyone sort of bought in and committed. So I'm not sure I'm right about that. But it's just a piece I was thinking about when you said that.

No, I'm glad you said that because I just wrote down different perspective, which you talked about in your last answer, and I was like, you and I think very similarly on leadership. Is there anything we disagree on? I kind of think of it. And when you were just touching on that in terms of the players, I think that is valid. But I kind of. I view it as leaders create that structure. And, you know, specifically in sports, whether we're talking college or pro, you are selecting those players. And so, you know, when we talk about having a tough football team, well, you don't just, like, get in front of your team and say, guys, we need to be tough, so we're going to practice in the snow. Right? You got to get guys that love football, which means it has to go back to your evaluation process. If your vision for your team is that you want a tough football team, well, then that better be reflected directly in what you look for with the people that you bring in to your organization. Then you bring them in, and you already have the structure in place where we are a tough football team. Yeah, we're practicing today in the snow. That's what we do here. And it's kind of. It's accepted and it is part of the way that we do things. And now you're bringing in people that are directly in line with kind of your overall vision for the program. So I think they kind of almost marry together. But I think I look at it more from, I think like the head of the organization kind of setting that directive, setting that vision and creating that structure and then bringing in people to kind of fit what you want for sure.

I think from a talent evaluation perspective, that makes a ton of sense. And how you're thinking about it, I still think. And another idea, I guess I've been experimenting with a little bit more, and this is something I challenged in my own thinking, as I've had some these conversations is like, you know, you hear about, like, I know FC Barcelona. I think it is like, basically, if you go interview with them, they just basically read you, like, here's what we value. Like, can you get on board or can you not? And if you can't get on board, you just end the interview process. Right? So the first part of the process is they just tell you about who they are and what you can expect if you come here and you decide as an employee, potential employee or player, like, yeah, I can get on board with that, or I can't get on board with that. And so I think that's one kind of extreme way of setting the culture that's really interesting and kind of lines up with what you're talking about, which is like this leader sort of sets the vision, creates the framework, and then you try to find people that can fit into that framework and maybe some people self select out of the framework. And ultimately you end up with a group of people who's generally sort of committed or consistent with what you value. I think the one piece I've started to think more about, and I don't know why I had never thought about this before, so sort of like kicking myself when I stumbled into it was like, why don't we update our cultures? Really? You know, like, I think a lot of sports programs I've been around, it's like, well, these are our values. This is how we've done it for the last five years. This is how we've done it for the last eight years. I was like, yeah, but you haven't had the same players for the last five or eight years. Like, why wouldn't you want to update that? Why wouldn't you want to change what some of that is? And so I think that's where some of my kind of, like each year I feel like the players should kind of revisit, like, who are we? Who are we as a group? What do we value? What can we agree on and have that become kind of the foundation of the culture.

Right.

And I think some of that does require leadership from the coach and saying, like, you know what? I trust this group of players enough to hand over some of that power and for us to agree on that. And we may not agree on everything, but if this is what you say can influence and motivate you as a group of people, and ultimately that's what I need to do as a leader, I need to impact, influence and motivate this group of people, then that's fine. I'll give you what you need.

So that's interesting. Real quick, now you're in. You work for the Toronto Raptors in the NBA. Does that maybe apply more to an NBA team or a basketball team where you have a little smaller setting in terms of the number of people involved? Right. We're talking about a team of maybe 15 players and I'm guessing 10 to 15 staff members, as opposed to your previous background. My Previous background of football where you have these large teams that are 150, 250 people operations, do you think maybe that feeds itself more into NBA basketball type situations where that culture can change almost on a yearly basis because losing one person is so much more in terms of the actual construction of the team?

I think it might be more easily applied in this context, but I think it's still relevant even in a context of a college football team or even a college athletic department. Like, what I'm about to say might be controversial, but not everyone has earned the right to have a voice in the culture yet, right? So I don't think you need to have. If you run in 1000 employee company, for example, I don't think you need to ask all thousand employees what they think necessarily. Right, you can, and I would be open to that as an idea, but I don't think like all those voices are going to necessarily carry the same weight. Right. And like people are sort of reluctant to talk about that, I think. But the reality is like almost all organizations have some high performers, some middle level performers and some low performers. And so you probably don't necessarily want the low performers driving the conversation about the whole culture. You may want to ask them, you know, what is it that's important to you? How can we bring you up a little bit? How do we kind of create the inchworm effect? Right? So the low becomes the middle, the middle becomes the high, the high becomes super elite. Like that's great. But I think maybe a more way I would advocate for doing it might be not to only take all the high end performers either, but instead take kind of a representative sample, right? Like who from this group do we see that could emerge as a leader? Who from this group do we value their opinion? Who from this group will the other people around them buy into? Right. Because it's also about players, staff, whatever, having different points of influence too. Right. And so like a person who's really isolated may have marginally less influence than someone who's, you know, a low performer but really well connected. Right. And so even though that person may not be performing to the standard they want, that person has a high degree of influence and it would be prudent to involve them in some shaping of what it is we want. Doesn't mean we're going to give them everything they want either, but it may mean that we're going to involve them. And so I think, yeah, the size of the group can help, right? Like you can't certainly it gets progressively harder to do this with 1,000 people than 15 people. But I still think there are ways to do it where you sample kind of a representative group and make it worthwhile.

Got it, got it. Yeah. Just when you said that, I was thinking, man, you know, you lose one or two football players, it's a lot smaller percentage than, you know, losing one or two players on a basketball team. I want to end with this because you said something earlier that I feel very strongly about in terms of making decisions and then also having people around you that you know are going to tell you the truth and that maybe can sometimes tell you no. And I'm just curious, when you are faced with tough decisions personally or professionally, is there anybody that you turn to for help in making those decisions or any process that you go through to make those tough decisions?

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is so the first person I turn to in making any big decisions is my, my partner, my wife, Kirsty. Because in a lot of ways she sees me very differently than everybody else, right? She gets to see me when the house lights go down, so to speak, and it's just us and there's nothing else going on. And here's sort of my raw, unfiltered thinking about all the different things that are going on. And so in some ways get some more like vulnerable picture of me then maybe shows up in different places where so I don't have to engage that way or don't have to show those kinds of parts of myself. And so sometimes I default to not really leading with that vulnerability. And that's something I've worked pretty hard on for the last few years. But it still kind of comes up in its own way where it's sort of like ah, kind of sit back and self protect a little bit more than, and engage and share some of myself. So I'm working on that. But she's one person who I think has seen that always and so can really help. But I think probably the process that's been most impactful for me is asking myself when any of these really big decisions come up, like, how am I going to feel about this in five years, 50 years and on my deathbed like, am I going to be really glad in five years that I did this or am I going to be like, oh man, that was a tough, tough turn, right? And you can't. I don't bat a thousand, so I don't expect to bat a thousand. But I try to improve the probability that this decision in five years is going to have been the Best decision, likewise in 50 years, likewise on my deathbed. Hopefully not on my deathbed in 50 years, but I think those have been. That's the simplest model I've come up with to help myself. Because what I found is I think sometimes people wait to make really big decisions until they have as much information as possible. But what we actually know is that more information doesn't necessarily lead you to better decisions, right? And one thing that happens is we start to weight information differently based on, say, the source it came from or how long ago we had that thought or idea. And so we kind of lose touch with some of the things that are like, really going on underneath the surface around these big decisions. And so for me, that I think is the simplest framework. And honestly, like, the deathbed question probably has the most importance. You know, like, am I going to have wished that I did X or Y? And if the answer is why, when I look back and tell the story to my imagined grandkids on my deathbed, like, then that's probably the decision I should go with. And then the second step is to look for all the reasons why that's a terrible decision. And so, like, you've heard of the act of the pre mortem, which is like, you know, tell me about, you made this decision. Tell me about might have failed. And so I'll go through that kind of process, like, what, what could possibly go wrong in all of this? What are the things I'm not thinking about to try to unpack what it is I might be missing and then sort of like systematically, if I can address those limitations or figure out how to address them, and if they can't be addressed, then the question is like, can I live with that? Can I cope with that if that's an outcome that does in fact happen? You know, if, if this decision fails because of this thing that I can't control or can't address, like, will that be okay? And oftentimes the answer is yes, as long as I feel like I can kind of, you know, get a great effort and like, leave it all in the field proverbially. And then the final, final thing I'll do is I'll kind of like write sometimes I'll write a future letter to myself, or I'll write some sort of like, journal entry that's just really about, like, imagine this went perfectly well. Like, what did you do? How did you make that happen? And similar thing, right? Like, if, if it goes perfectly well, but I actually have no influence over going perfectly well. Like, it turns out in this narrative I've crafted, everything that leads to the great outcome is, like, totally outside of my control. Like, I work for the best people and, you know, it's always sunny and I win the lottery. Like, all those things. Right. Then maybe it's not a great decision. So I try to come at it from several different angles, but it all starts with Kirsty and then these other kind of bigger questions.

Yeah, that's great. That's great that you have courtesy to lean on. And I like your framework in terms of thinking about it multiple years into the future. And I personally also write down things and my own thoughts and try and think, almost kind of talking to myself to help me think through. Sometimes there's just something about writing it by hand in a notebook that helps. Maybe some things that are a little abstract in your mind become a little more concrete when you actually write them down. So really great to hear. Alex, thank you so much for joining us, man. And I look forward to the next conversation.

Likewise. Thanks for having me. It'll be fun to do it again.

Definitely.

Take care, man.