Founder Mental Fitness Conference: Fireside Chat 3 (#FMFCon)

Thank you, Naveed. It's a pleasure to be here with everyone. I'm Dr. Alex Auerbach coming to you live from a hotel room in Fort Worth at another conference full time. I'm the sports psychologist for the NBA's Toronto Raptors with a deep passion for helping our entrepreneurial community be as healthy and high performing as possible. And I am delighted to be here today with Dr. Ute Stephan. Ute, how are you?

I'm well, thank you very much. And it's the theme. I'm joining you also from a hotel room at the conference. So, so hello.

Awesome. Well, I wonder, to kick us off, could you just tell us a little bit about you and the work that you're doing to help orient the audience?

Sure. But first of all, Alex, thanks so much for interviewing me and a big thank you to Navid for putting all of this together. I think the topic is just so important and it's so great to see a whole conference dedicated to this with great speakers. So I'm Ute Stefan. I'm a professor of entrepreneurship in King's College London. I'm also by training a psychologist with training and organizational and clinical psychology. And so that kind of intrinsically makes you interested in all things happiness, well being mental health, and I'm going to use those terms quite interchangeably. And then after a stint of self employment myself, I've became really fascinated with understanding how individuals can thrive in entrepreneurship, which by any means and measure is like one of the most stressful, challenging, but at the same time also most psychologically rewarding and intriguing jobs. And perhaps we shouldn't even call it a job, perhaps it's much more a way of life. And so I started researching entrepreneurs mental health and trying to understand how they differ from people who work for others employees, but also what it really is. What's the combination that makes people work the longest hours of any occupation and be very happy while doing so. So I've spent the last two decades almost now on researching this.

Wonderful. So can we start there? Let's start with the paradox you're illuminating for us. This long work hours and deep passion and it's not quite of a, you know, job. It's, it's something deeper than that. Can you just tell us a little bit about what you've learned in your research so far on that?

Yeah, so I have to say the research is maybe also a little bit lagging behind, but what we see is that there is kind of this combination of everybody says you're in charge, right? As the Entrepreneur, you have all this decision making freedoms and at the same time your work is very meaningful because you are creating your own job. You're kind of, you know, you end up doing, designing your own work, designing your own organization. And you combine that with individuals who tend to be quite achievement oriented. You have to be a bit confident to take on the whole thing. And you have work that matters to you, that's very purposeful and you can always do more. There's never a line, right? Nobody says stop. You can always gain more market share, you can always have more impact. And really that leads. Yeah, it's a combination that sucks you in, for lack of a better word, leads you to overextend yourself. And at the same time, because you've invested so much in that and you know, in that career, into building this and also made sacrifices often in private life. We know you kind of justify psychologically to yourself that you're actually very happy. And I think that's really a tricky combination because you know, subjectively you think you're happy, you're thriving, but it does take a toll on your body. And what we know from research is that your body doesn't forgive you. So there's only so much you can, you know, let your body work under stress. At some point we know that this, all this buildup of what we call allostatic load backfires and you become ill. You, you either suffer from a mental illness or you suffer from a physical illness or worst of all hope. So it's this time delay, I think, that's really tricky. Over to you.

Yeah. Gosh, I feel like there's so much we can unpack here. So let's start sort of fundamentally. Like, is there data that suggests entrepreneurs are different from the general population? And if so, how.

Yep. So I'm not quite sure what's going on here. I hope you can see me. Okay, so yes, there is. So we've actually just completed a big survey of all the evidence There is across 82 countries, over 7, close to 7 million individuals. 40 years of research, what we learned is, yes, you're happier working for yourself. So entrepreneurs are happier in their work, in their life. They're not necessarily more stressed in terms of self reported stress. But there is more and more evidence coming out that shows us that physiologically entrepreneurs are indeed more stressed.

That's interesting. And so they've got again that paradox of happiness and higher stress. You've also written a wonderful paper about the depth of recovery activities entrepreneurs might engage in and how recovery can really Help entrepreneurs sustain excellence over time. Could you tell us a little bit about that paper? And then what you found was tremendously impactful in the ways entrepreneurs.

Yes. So if we go back to my earlier point that you don't necessarily feel stressed, but you're actually quite happy in your work, but you do have this physiological buildup of stress and your body doesn't forgive you, then one way to deal with that is kind of give your body regular intervals of respite that allows you to recover your energy and really breaks this vicious physiological circle. That's why recovery is so important, because if I'm going to tell any entrepreneur, well, you're going to have to have less stress in your life. I think they're just going to laugh. So I think the tricky bit is do something that you can do that's not taking too much of your time. And so recovery has many forms. And, you know, it's not kind of about adding a long list of to dos to your list. But if we started with a very basic, very fundamental recovery, which is sleep, then what we saw was we fitted entrepreneurs with sleep trackers. So we measured their sleep objectively and then followed them over two weeks. And we spoke to them every day in the morning and in the evening. And what we saw was that on days, on nights, rather, where they slept better the next day, they were more creative in their work. So that's really intriguing, I think, for two reasons, because it actually shows investing in your recovery, investing in your sleep, which you kind of could see as taking time away from the business helps you to be more productive in the business. Right. It helps you to be more creative in the work you're doing. And the second reason why I think that's really interesting is because it moves us away from thinking about creativity as something that's fixed. Right. That something. Something that entrepreneurs are born with. We actually found that creativity had really substantial variation over time from day to day, and it really mattered whether you had a good night's sleep and then, you know, creativity went up the next day.

That's super interesting. I love the language you use about sleeping and investment and future performance. And that's something I talk to the elite athletes I work with about, too. It's a very similar paradigm. You know, often in sports, there's this idea that while you're sleeping, the enemy is working. And I think that same kind of dynamic plays itself out in entrepreneurship. And yet to hear that taking time away is actually an investment in the ongoing future success of the company, I think is really important. And I love that you started with sleep because this is sort of a non negotiable for human performance, right. It's the single most impactful human performance enhancer that we all have access to. We know that if you reduce your sleep, right, all the things that entrepreneurs need to be successful, good decision making, effective communication, all those things suffer. And so I think it's wonderful that you've started there. What other recovery activities have you uncovered that are linked to things like creativity or other mental health outcomes we might be interested in?

So I think I just want to reiterate and it's not just my research, actually research by Jeff Kish and colleagues and also Amanda Williamson, they found a similar pattern and I think that's really encouraging that you're independently finding find the same result. And you know, just sleep matters so much and it's something you can't delay, you can't catch up on, right. Your body doesn't forgive you sleep. And just the downside, so the upside is mental fitness. The downside is we know that people who kind of compromise their sleep over time literally die earlier. So that's a downside that's also worth keeping in mind. And then there is a whole menu of other recovery activities and some, to be fair, we all only just starting to unpack and we, we have not done as much research as we would like to, but we're on the way to really kind of look at that in entrepreneurs. But so, so one element is also detaching from work and we've actually done a study on that. And so there, it's really interesting because entrepreneurs are slightly different there than employees. So for employees it's better if you just stop thinking about work when you come home. For entrepreneurs, what we see is that there's two elements really. There is the element of stop worrying about work and that's really important. So you know, if you think about work in the evening, try not to worry about it. I know, easier said than done. But there are super tools from cognitive behavior therapy that can help you there. But so the activity that actually also helps in terms of creativity and also in terms of well being is to you can ponder problems. So you can, you know, you can still think about your, your work problems, not too much. When you start to worry about them, then you need to stop. That's your signal. But then also again you benefit from sleeping on it literally. So there is this, this magic thing that goes on in your brain. It's not quite magic, but it feels like magic because There are incubation processes going on physiologically that then help you to digest and come up with more creative solutions the next day. And generally, you know, we do find investment in recovery and self care really helps to lift your mood the next day. And as you said, you know, if you're in a more positive mood, that's not just nice to have, that's an element of being able to perform well and consistently well over the day.

Yeah, we know that recovery plays such a huge part in, you know, high performing relationships, healthy relationships, again, good decision making. And I love your, your recommendation to sleep on it. There's some really interesting data from Daniel Kahneman, who's one of the leading psychologists and decision scientists in the world, who basically describe sleeping on it as getting a second opinion from yourself. And so I love that, that paradigm there. Three factors that I think are critical for founders who are navigating their own mental health and the performance of themselves and their company are clarity of thought, resilience, the ability to bounce back from failure, adversity and then belonging, like having a sense of connectedness, community and being a part of something bigger than yourself. I'm wondering if you could share, you know, what founders might do to bring more of those three factors, clarity, resilience and belonging into their daily lives.

So I think there is also an element of tailoring and testing what works best for you. But generally things I would recommend, and it's really from recovery research at large, is, you know, small steps, try things out. So what's really effective and a productivity enhancer is, is if you have actually regular breaks throughout the day. So say there's actually little software tools that help you to do this. So you work, let's say 55 minutes and then you take a five minute break. And these mini breaks are not quite as magic as the sleeping on it, but you also gain some distance. So in those five minutes you're not doing anything related to work. Ideal scenario, you have a garden and can be exposed to nature and really kind of change the scene. Um, and you know, it also resets your thoughts and you'll be amazed if you try it out a few times just how effective this is. And it's about building a routine, right, so that your body is getting set into this rhythm, knows 55 minutes work and then 5 minutes I'm going to have time away from work. And it also, because you know those 55 minutes come up, you're going to be more productive in the lead up to the, the end of those 55 minute period. So that's something you can do in work. The other thing is, yeah, certainly we know that entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur can be a very lonely job. And as you say, belonging is really important for mental fitness. So do look after your networks and do schedule time to actually see your friends. And I think there, the other element is, and we've actually done research on that, it's really tricky to get feedback as an entrepreneur and sometimes your friends are the right people to do that, but other times it's much better to get professional advice from a coach. So we see often entrepreneurs are so hungry for feedback that they're almost overusing the private network. So certainly do keep in mind that these social relationships are not just nice to have. They're really important for your general sense of wellness, fitness, resilience. Yeah, and spending time in nature seems to be something that research tells us if you do just two hours per week, actually your cortisol levels, so it's a stress hormone, respond to that. And two hours per week doesn't seem that much. So that should be achievable, provided, of course, you're in a space where you have access to nature and nature can just be a park around the corner, I guess. And ultimately, if you're in a position as an entrepreneur that you can maybe think about having an employee or kind of outsourcing some of your work. So ultimately thinking that it's. You really have to do all the jobs that are on your plate or can you free up some of your space and time by delegating certain elements? I know that at the. We know from research actually that the first time you do that, that might be extremely challenging. But give others the benefit of a doubt and try it out and also work with them and give them feedback. But at the end of the day, if you always do everything, it just is a very complex job because you're running a company and so you're in danger of overloading yourself. And even though you think your best place to do everything, if you're not an any longer fresh and resilient and, you know, in a, in a positive state of mind, then even you won't do the best job that you can. And then maybe somebody else could do a better job at it.

Sure. You know, you slid something in there that I think is really important that I want to circle back on, which was the idea of, you know, entrepreneurs working with coaches or seeking support outside their typical social networks to find, you know, a second opinion or have that ongoing dialogue. Could you just talk a Little bit about what the data shows is useful for entrepreneurs in terms of seeking coaching or seeking therapy, just additional support, resources and why and what positive impacts that has.

So I should say caveat. There's very little research on it, but what we do see is, and actually in itself, we know famously being an entrepreneur is quite a lonely job for many reasons. Right. If you're an employee, you. You have co workers you can rely on. If you're an entrepreneur, unless you have a co founder, that's very difficult because anybody who's your peer is likely also in a position to be your competition. And maybe you also don't want to open up if you are partnering with them because you don't want to see others or think that others kind of be seen as vulnerable by others. And that's a whole different discussion that's also important to have around stigma and whether that's okay to be seen as vulnerable. But sorry, I now lost my train of thought. It is close getting to midnight here. So can you remind me what the other part of the question was? What we know about loneliness and support.

Yeah. And whether you know what we know about entrepreneurs working with coaches or therapists.

Yeah, yeah. So we know very little. But any evidence we have suggests that coaching is a good thing. So there is research with entrepreneurs who are close to bankruptcy where coaching really provided a lifeline. But also generally, actually coaching, there's some interesting research on entrepreneurs seeking funding. And generally investors look clearly for good ideas and confident entrepreneurs. But they often see if you seek professional support from a coach and are seen as coachable as a positive thing, because then they know that you're interested in to learn and improve. And that's really important if you make an investment.

That's really interesting. And you talked a little bit about stigma and the role that stigma and vulnerability play in help seeking and entrepreneurs getting support. Can you maybe touch on what you wish the entrepreneurial community better understood about your research in terms of promoting founder mental fitness?

I think first of all, understanding that entrepreneurs are human beings like the rest of us, because often there is the sense that they're particularly stress resilient and somehow that means whatever you throw at them, they'll just work through it and they do the grind. So really understanding that entrepreneurs suffer from stress and they're susceptible to make bad decisions under stress like anybody else, but also understanding that there really is this double bind, that it's a very meaningful, purposeful, really, you know, a very energizing job, but it also is very stressful and that the stresses really go unacknowledged, that they are not socially. It's not socially acceptable to acknowledge, not even sometimes in close relationships. So we had founders in our study who said, I can't any longer talk to my partner about the stresses at work because they worry basically. They know that all our money goes into building this business, and, you know, it seems to be taking much longer than they expected. And so I can't disclose any longer because essentially that creates a whole different conversation about our financial security. So really acknowledging that there is a lot of stress and making support available, but also asking the entrepreneurs every once in a while, if you have an entrepreneur in your network, if you're an investor who kind of supports an entrepreneur, just ask them genuinely how they are, how they are doing, whether there is something there's a roadblock at the moment that maybe they can be helped with.

I love the recommendation to just ask how people are doing and really mean it. I think that kind of stuff goes a really long way in creating some of the culture change. Recently I shared this with you. In our preparation for this event, the US Surgeon General released a document about promoting mental health at work and identifying work as a foundational place where people's mental health is impacted and shaped. And there were several dimensions unveiled in that paper from the US Surgeon General. I'm wondering if you could just share a little bit about your perspective around the founder's responsibility to create a healthy workplace to promote the mental health of not only themselves, but ultimately the people that they end up bringing on board and employing as well.

Yeah, I ultimately think that part has really not yet been researched enough. And it's extraordinarily important because really it's a route to societal well being at large. And I think maybe leaders matter in organizations and founders matter even more and they role model at the top of the organization, what the employees see. And it's not just that. We also know from leadership research that leaders who are mentally in a fit state, who are not stressed out, are better leaders. Because what happens if you're stressed, you have much less capacity, literally much less cognitive capacity, to take others perspective and understand where they are coming from, what problems they may have. You're much more likely to interpret things in a way that are unfavorable, so that somebody has bad intentions, for instance, as opposed to just making a genuine mistake. And so you're a much better leader if you are yourself, mentally healthy, mentally fit.

Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that's super important here to Me, when I'm thinking about founders and this responsibility is the idea that it's much easier to build a culture than it is to change a culture. And so if you start from this place of authenticity and vulnerability and promoting mental health and open dialogue and being real about what's happening, it's easier to continue that as more and more people join. But if you start in this place of, you know, hiding things or sweeping things under the rug, it can be really hard to create that culture of psychological safety and openness that we are seeking. You know, many people are seeking in their workplace. You touched on not having enough research in this area yet. So what do you see as the next frontier of research for entrepreneurs? Mental health and mental fitness?

Can I have more than one frontier? So one frontier certainly is kind of testing out some of bespoke interventions for entrepreneurs. So we know a lot what works in different fields. I do think we need to kind of tailor some of this to entrepreneurs to their unique work life settings. And we have a lot to draw on from sports psychology, from clinical psychology, occupational health coaching and so forth. I think it would also be fantastic if we could find a way to inoculate entrepreneurs. So a lot of the conversations I have with entrepreneurs around mental health well being is once they've burned out or with investors, once they've seen a company they invested in, at least one of the founders burned out, wouldn't it be fantastic if we could do something in the setting up of a business that that could be prevented and you're actually building right from the start a mentally fit organization. But that's really tricky because as I said before, because there's this double bind that actually you feel, you know, you're thriving, it's very intense work and you don't yet feel the physical and physiological consequences of the stress. So somehow we need to crack that. And I think the other aspect is really kind of to normalize these conversations and just start talking more about the importance of mental fitness and seeing it as part and parcel of how we do our daily life, of how we run businesses, of how we run societies, for lack of a better word.

Yeah. Well, I think that's what today's conversation is so special. Right. That's what makes this a really cool opportunity is the chance to talk openly about mental fitness and for people to hear from a variety of stakeholders and get different perspectives. And I love your idea of inoculating founders against stress. And we know obviously from research in elite military units and professional sports that there are ways that people can inoculate themselves against future stressors and prepare for what is an incredibly intense journey as an entrepreneur. And so, you know, for you, if you kind of could reimagine from the ground up the entrepreneurial community, you know, what factors or characteristics would you be building in to make sure that the entrepreneurial community is healthy and high performing?

Great question. I think I would start with the little things like creating those routines. Well, they seem little, but we know they're extraordinarily powerful. Creating these recovery routines, make sure you get enough sleep, make sure you take regular breaks, and make sure that you model health, healthy mental fitness in the workplace, because whether you want it or not, you will have an impact on many others around you.

Awesome. Thank you so much. We are going to turn our time and attention to the Q and A. I have a number of questions from the audience here that we can do our best to tackle together. Does that sound all right?

Sounds great.

Okay, so the first one I have here says most often when people talk about finding the right co founders, it's from the perspective of business growth. Is having a co founder also helpful for someone's mental health? Can it actually hurt in any way to have a co founder?

That's a great question. So yes, it can hurt because conflicts among co founders are really stressful. So you want to make sure that you get the right person. And I think you want to be complementary on a growth perspective, but you also want to be complementary maybe on a wellness perspective. And you want to cultivate between you and your team that, you know, you look after each other because you're going through the same experience, through the same stresses to some extent. So you have actually that other opinion that you get after sleeping on things you have in your co founder. So that makes life easier. But also just be mindful that, you know, there are not many other people who can support you and cultivate in your relationship, that you are available to support each other, that you will listen when the other person says, you know, not quite sure what to do. I'm feeling overwhelmed that you make time for that.

Yeah, I think this question is super fascinating and we have some really interesting data about how humans have evolved to co regulate one another's energy efficiency. And so my favorite example of this is always asking people, you know, to think of a time they were in a significant relationship and imagine texting that person, you know, we need to talk. Everyone's been on the receiving end of that text or message and knows what that feels like. Right? That immediate physiological reaction. And it shows just how powerful human connection can really be right through text without being face to face. Four words or five words can totally change someone's day. And so in some regards, having a co founder I could see being, you know, if they're healthy and high performing, being great for helping regulate you and helping you show up to a healthy, high performing workplace. And then at times I can see, you know, the intensity of entrepreneurship leading to sometimes maybe hurtful or harmful dynamics where having a co founder and that sort of conflict can be detrimental to the performance of both parties. And so, you know, I think it's a super interesting dimension of entrepreneurship to think about because the social dynamics are hugely important for how people function on a day to day basis.

Maybe just one thing to add. I think it's really important and I think one has to appreciate that relationships take time. So you have to make time for kind of expectation management so how you're going to set out to work together and also kind of almost agree a signal on, you know, now we need to talk so that you, you know, before the we really need to talk come so that you can have a constructive dialogue and you know, don't wait to the last minute.

So yeah, yeah, I think that's a, that's a great point too. I mean, I often talk about trust as being a function of predictability. So the more I understand who I'm working with and what I'm walking into on a regular basis, the easier it is for me to regulate myself, to communicate effectively, to operate well with you, to be a great teammate. And so of course that takes time. Right. We're basically building a mental model of this other person's existence and trying to understand how they function in the way that they do what they do. And so it's not going to happen over night. And even if you've known your co founder for a while in a different context, right. You're learning them in a new way as you start this new adventure together. And so I think it's, it's a really, really important thing for founders and entrepreneurs to process as they're thinking about who's on their team and the way that they work. Is there any data around how many people suffer from mental health issues without recognizing that they may be suffering? So do people actually know they may be suffering or at risk?

That's another great question. I think there is data, but I'm not absolutely sure I can give you a clear study citation. But generally when epidemiologists do large surveys of the population to estimate the prevalence of mental illness. They have structured instruments whereby they diagnose and they often find that there is a much higher prevalence rate than you would expect from what you see being in treatment. So I can't tell you the precise number of how much it's out. It also depends a bit on the country you're in. So because in certain countries it's much more acceptable to seek help versus in others, it's much more stigmatized. But there is certainly a big gap between people knowing, realizing that they're suffering and what we would deem to be clinically relevant suffering based on these validated instruments.

What about the rates of help seeking for entrepreneurs? What do we know about how frequently or infrequently entrepreneurs engage in those services?

We don't know a lot. We do think that they don't seek a lot of help. We see in, in some studies indications of self medication. So you can kind of, or kind of a way of, if you want to use a other term, emotion focused coping. So one way of coping with emotions is drinking, for instance, or drug use, smoking. So anything that distracts you, calms you down, maybe for a while, relaxes you, which would indicate that, you know, there is a lot, a much greater need. And it is difficult for entrepreneurs to ask for help because it's not immediately clear who you would ask for help. So going back, you know, in an organization you may have peers, you may even have a supervisor who can you, who you can approach for help. For entrepreneurs, there's just much fewer people who really understand the challenges they're dealing with.

Yeah, I think that's, it's interesting to note that there isn't a ton of data there, but obviously, obviously to your point, we might expect that the data, whatever data we have, suggests the rates of help seeking are fairly low and probably a mismatch between the true prevalence rates of mental health concerns and the amount of services being provided. And so there's a clear gap there. And supporting entrepreneurs in figuring out what those resources are I think is incredibly important. Keeping in line with the research questions here. What is the state of research on the correlation between mental fitness and business outcomes or other metrics that show business success?

That's a great question. So I did a systematic review of all the evidence that we have and really we have much less evidence related to the outcomes. So what well being impacts? There is some evidence. The evidence we have is all positive. So it's good for opportunity, recognition, creativity. We covered it already. It's good, good for staying in Business persistent, it's good for effort, you know, working hard, you do that much better when, when you're happier. And we do have some evidence that it's related to business closures. So if you have, you know, greater mental distress, but I can't give you a precise correlation because we, yeah, we really need a lot more research to, to work that out. And it is quite tricky, especially if you look at young firms where the performance itself might also be fluctuating quite a lot and be a noisy measure in itself. So it's something we're working on for now. Believe me, there is a positive relationship by all intents and purposes from what we see from the studies and some of those are decent quality longitudinal studies. But I wouldn't be confident to give you a certain number because it's still a bit arbitrary because we don't have a body of evidence yet to estimate that number.

Yeah, and I think it's going to be a hard one to tease apart, but obviously super important. And we do know, you know, that things like mental fitness are related to employee satisfaction, employee engagement, productivity, absenteeism, you know, other factors that we can maybe tangentially say are related to the overall productivity and success of the business. I don't know if you have thoughts or comments about that, but seems like it's an important factor too.

Certainly an important factor. And the one comment and thought I have is that academics like entrepreneurs, like a challenge. So we're going to sort this out sooner hopefully rather than later.

Awesome. Have you observed entrepreneurs self sabotaging their own well being? What can cause this and how can entrepreneurs overcome self sabotage?

So yes, we see this in terms of they get to the point where they know they really should pay attention to their well being, they really should take a break, that they're working almost through burnout. So they see the signs but they can't stop. And that particularly happens when the business is in a precarious situation because that intensifies the stress. Right. Often your, you know, your life's work is at stake and that's really, I mean that's a known paradox actually. It's not just something entrepreneurs suffer from, but in entrepreneurships really intensified that. When times are most stressful, it's really most difficult to take time away and you know, give yourself space to engage in self care and recover. So yeah, this self sabotage is essentially just working through the early warning signs of burnout.

I want to take it one sort of tangent over, one step over. But what about any relationships between self handicapping and entrepreneurship, is there a tendency to sort of create circumstances where you can't succeed as things get worse? And do we have any data on that?

That's a great question. I'm not aware that anybody has looked at this, but it is. Yeah, it's intriguing. It could happen, but I don't know, to be honest.

Sounds like you're going to leave the panel with several lines of research inquiry to dive into. Yeah. There's a quote here from Kenneth Frazier, the chairman of Merck, who said that people confidence but are loyal to vulnerability. What can entrepreneurs learn from talking about mental health? When entrepreneurs lean into talking about it, can that be an asset to the team? Team to drive more loyalty versus being seen as a liability? How might that openness about mental health help?

Yes, I think that's a great quote and observation. I do think it can actually be a driver of loyalty if you have the right conversations in the right setting. I think generally, self disclosure, because you're making yourself vulnerable, is a first step toward building trust and kind of having authentic exchanges. And I think that's really key in the workplace if you want to build purposeful organizations where people feel they can buy in. Right. They're not in some artificial world where, you know, they're supposed to perform, perform, perform, and then the rest of their meaningful life really happens elsewhere. So if you want to create organizations where, as you say, people work harder because they're happier and because they find their work meaningful, then that seems to be a very good ally. But, of course, you want to be careful. Right. What you don't want to create is that your employees feel, oh, he's. He or she is so vulnerable that maybe my job is at risk. Right. You don't want to kind of get them into a shock that maybe they have to worry about their own livelihood. So I think it needs to be a carefully framed discussion. But it's. It certainly is absolutely worth. And it's, you know, part of human nature. Go back to my point earlier. Entrepreneurs are human beings, and if you allow that in the workplace, you're gonna ultimately create much more meaningful workplaces for everyone.

Yeah. I think this. This quote and this question to me, hits the center of what psychological safety is all about. And obviously, there's been a ton of discussion, particularly throughout the pandemic, about how workplaces can create greater psychological safety for their employees. Right. So that people can speak up about what's happening for them amidst the intense pressure and ambiguity and stress that was created by the pandemic. And so I think Your point is really well taken. This balance between being vulnerable, maybe sharing failures, or what you've learned without tipping into too personal so that people are unsure or feel uneasy about their own leadership, I think is a delicate line to walk. But having someone who can model really clearly what it means to be vulnerable, who can share mistakes, who can talk about times when they've struggled and ways that they've managed, does make it easier, we know, for people to talk about their mental health and seek help and ask for support. And so I think it's a really important dynamic and dimension to capital capitalize on. For founders who are starting their own companies and want to create that sense of psychological safety, I think it's important to note that it starts at the top. Right. It's not something that's going to come about from just hiring a bunch of, you know, psychologically minded or open people. It's going to come from leadership, really being vulnerable and open about their own experience and encouraging and supporting others when they do the same. Go ahead.

Maybe, maybe just to add to that, it's also, if you put it in the context of today's economies where, you know, we know that actually in most countries there is almost a shortage of qualified labor. We know that startups often can't pay the same amount of money, but what they can offer is really a place of work where people like to work. And so it's really an important investment. And as you say, it is modeled from the top.

It's a competitive advantage. Right. If you can get people into that space. I think we've got time for one more here. And so going back to the benefits of co founders, what if you choose the wrong co founder and they have personality issues like being egotistical? Especially since narcissism is common among entrepreneurs. What would you suggest someone do?

That's a great question, but I think that also depends on how much narcissism you're personally willing to tolerate. I can only talk about what I would do. I probably would end that relationship because that's not the type of workplace I'd like. I, you know, I like to work with people on mutual understanding, trust, because I think ultimately then you get much more out of. Out of working is more enjoyable, but you also get much more creative ideas out of collaborations. So going back to the point of modeling a positive relationship from the top for the organization, that would be my choice. But everybody needs to make their choices.

Yeah, I just want to double down on your point here, which is, I think maybe highlighting sometimes that there's a trade off between bringing someone in who's like that and what the impact then might be on the rest of the people you bring in, how that shapes the company dynamic. You know, all of those things, I think are really important to factor in. And so, you know, narcissism may be more common amongst entrepreneurs, and ego is often highly involved when things feel deeply personal, like starting a company and being really close to it. But I think it's. It's critical to make sure that that's managed effectively so that the rest of the team, as the team grows and as the business grows, can be successful. Ute, this has been incredibly informative and helpful. It was a delight to host you. Thank you so much.