FreeFuse Sessions Ep 17 Sarah Lee & Dr Alex Auerbach

Foreign.

Hey everybody, thank you so much for joining us on this, the 17th edition of the free few sessions. Crazy to think about, but I am here today as the Founder and CEO of Free Fuse Mike and of course I've been hosting these free few sessions to highlight subject matter experts in various fields and today is a very special topic regarding the whole idea around mental health, various kind of aspects and thoughts around that. And I've brought in two great subject matter experts and key opinion leaders here, Sara Lee and Alex Auerbach. Sarah is a former founder turned coach and investor in ambitious teams and novel technologies which make the world more awesome and also help people or humans realize fully livid lives. Coach to leaders, founding teams, aspiring leaders at sea to pre IPO companies across industries. She has 700 plus hours of one to one coaching across 135 companies and clients referred by the top investment funds include General catalyst, Sequoia, Khosla, M13 and accelerators including YC, Alchemist and Techstars. And hopefully I don't mess up this introduction, but Dr. Alex Auerbach is the Senior Director of Wellness and Development for the Toronto Raptors. He joined the Toronto Raptors after serving as the Director of Clinical and Sports Psychology for the University of Arizona. Dr. Auerbach has worked with NCAA Division 1 schools in the PAC 12, ACC, Big 12 and Conference USA. He's worked with founders and executives from a range of companies including venture backed startups and Fortune 5 execs. So without further ado, I'd love to open the floor for you both if you'd like to share some extra context as well. And just want to thank you so much for taking the time out to be with us today.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I really enjoy the time I get to spend with Sarah. And obviously this subject is super important for any high performer who's looking to think about getting the most out of themselves and take care of themselves in a sustainable way. So I appreciate you Mike for having us on and letting us talk about this.

Thanks so much Mike. Yeah, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. You know, not to not to get too dire, but you know, suicide is like the second leading cause of death for adolescents. And so for me as an investor in future of learning and future of work, it's something that's pretty crucial in society today. So glad you're shining a light on it.

Absolutely. And well, you know, I really appreciate kind of the different lenses that we have in Top performers. Right. We have, of course, Sarah you're in the startup realm, and Alex, you're in the sports realm. But there's an interesting crossover, I feel like, with having to be a top performer in your field and, you know, sort of the pressure that comes with that. Right. And so from what you've seen working with founders or working with athletes, I feel like there's a certain sense of getting in your own head or like, you know, really having a challenge of trying to maintain that top performance over time. So what are some of the major things that you're seeing in 2023, you know, from what we experienced maybe in the last few years that have been contributing to the largest challenges in mental health for these top performers?

I'd say from my view, probably the big ones are kind of the constant ambiguity that's come with COVID You know, ambiguity is incredibly taxing for people and uncertainty is very taxing for people. So, you know, if you think about the sort of the business space, right, there's issues around return to work, working from home, getting things set up, dealing with childcare, managing family, not knowing if you're going to have a job. Right. Like, there's just been so much that's gone on. And similarly in the sports world, you know, in the NBA, for example, we went from. From playing every other night to not having a season to go into a bubble. In my case, relocating to another country, moving back. Like, there's a lot of uncertainty. So I think that's part of it. And, you know, that leads to people being burnt out and a little bit worn down. And so I think those are, you know, probably the biggest challenges I've seen kind of coming into 2023. Obviously, the economic uncertainty today, I think is a big stressor and a big challenge too. So it's just been one thing after another, it feels like, for the last three and a half years, unfortunately. And when things really uncertain, one of the things we tend to do as people is jump to the worst possible outcome and sort of sit there and try to problem solve for that, which I think also increases some distress. And then I guess the last thing I'd hit on is just the loneliness. Right. We've all been a bit more isolated than usual, a bit more disconnected from the people around us than usual. And we're starting to come out of that slowly but surely. But I think that takes a bit of time. I don't know. Sarah, what do you think?

Oh, gosh. I mean, that's all spot on for sure. I think a couple of like, macro shifts are also A really big part of creating higher levels of anxiety and depression and just crises, particularly amongst founders where the job is really lonely to begin with. But I think, you know, obviously market forces, as, you know, Silicon Valley bank, you know, a bunch of other sort of interest rate hikes, wars, craziness in politics, global conflict. But I think two main things that I really point to, one, crazy amounts of content and social media that's like constantly like infusing your brain with impressions of what your life should be and other crises and distractions, sort of numbing you from really feeling what you're feeling or being present. And two, just a general sense of like, how do I become and live up to Silicon Valley unicorn status that is totally unrealistic, not necessarily where most small, medium to sized businesses like really excel. So those are two things that I see often.

And I think that what's, I feel like a hallmark of human beings is really the resilience element. Right. No matter how much you have things change and crazy things happen, there is a certain sense of being able to bounce back and adjust and sort of develop our own strategies around getting around that. Right. And I think that for, you know, whether it's top performers who are athletes and top performers who are in startups, I think the, one of the things that people have a challenge with is asking for help. Asking for help is, I think one of the more challenging things is, you know, if you're a startup C level person or if you're a top athlete, you don't want people to think that you're dealing with particular, you know, elements in your life that are, you know, challenging. And everybody handles these things differently, right. Certain scenarios and things cause us to have sort, certain ways we respond. So when you're working with folks, whether you're coaching them or whether you're working with them and sort of maybe, you know, the way they look at the world, how do you sort of allow them to, you know, maybe give them this opportunity to feel like they can share with you those aspects so that they can allow themselves to be the most effective while working through some of the aspects that are most challenging for them as top performers?

I think I'll, I'll speak about this from a kind of investor seat. I mean, one of the things, you know, because I'm investing at early stages, so a lot of it is really about qualitative assessments of the team and the ability of the founders to really execute. And one of the big things that I really look for is grit, resilience and coachability. Is this founder able to take in content and still maintain, you know, ardent vision for their product and their market, but can take in different opinions, process them, and then still make sound decisions? And I think, you know, one of the things that has not been part of venture capital startup culture from the 1960s or whatever, when venture became an asset class, is this idea of asking for help, vulnerability. So I feel like it's a fairly recent phenomenon in the last decade or so when startups and investors have really been saying, what's going on? What support do you need? This is really tough. It's a lonely job, and even providing that as part of the investment capital that comes out. So I think it's shifting, and I think it's a cultural norm that does need to continue to grow.

It's super interesting to hear that perspective, Sarah, because the sports world, like, we kind of have. I feel like we're a couple steps ahead in some ways, and then in some ways we're still navigating some of the very same challenges. So I think, Mike, what you're raising is kind of like the issue of stigma around help seeking. And obviously in professional sports, in the NBA, for example, it's a pretty hyper, masculine environment, so it can be a bit scary for people to ask for help. But what makes it a little unique in my world is that coaching is baked in, right? Like, it's just assumed that coaches will be a big part of what's going on on a regular basis, and that coaches are necessary for skill development. And so when I work with professional athletes, that's a really easy parallel to draw. Right? Like, you have a coach who helps you develop the physical skills you need on the court. You have a coach who helps you develop the physical strength that you need off the court. That translates to the court. Why not have a coach that helps you translate the mental side of things to what you need to do on and off the court? And that tends to, I think, resonate for people, right. Like make some sense. And most players, I think, and all of us who are high performers, I think, do recognize the importance of the mental side, or the mental game, if you will, to achieving peak performance. And so I think that parallel works well. Kind of marrying matching the idea of physical performance and mental performance, I think is helpful. And then when someone is with me, one of the things I'm often trying to do is demonstrate a little bit of what I'm hoping to see back from them. Right. So sharing a little bit more about myself, being super open, obviously, I'm an expert in what I do as a psychologist, but I'm not the expert in the person right in front of me. Like it's my job to bring my expertise and skills to bear in their situation and their job to sort of share and together we can partner up to really get people to where they need to go. And I think often as long as people don't feel like you're trying to fix them, the help seeking is a little bit less scary and can be a bit more accessible. And I think the final thing that's, that's super interesting to me here, kind of like in the differences is, you know, in the sports world we're slowly but surely recognizing that essentially the idea of talent identification is crap. Like no one is really that good at it. And there obviously you've got some outliers, but by and large, like you can think of a number of misses from the NBA world that people would, if we went back in time, would absolutely redo. Like the most obvious one right now is Jokic, right? The guy got drafted in the second round, has been a two time mvp, NBA finals mvp, NBA champion. Like if you were redrafting today, you'd take him first overall, right? So why did nobody see that? Well, there's a lot of reasons that nobody sees that. But I think probably the biggest thing that people don't factor in is the environment. And so I do think that also helps make coaching a bit more accessible because it's really not about something wrong with you as a person or you as a person needing to be fixed. It's about, look, we need to create an environment that allows you to thrive. And for us to do that, we need to know more about you. We need to understand who you are. And then we together can shape the environment to bring out peak performance of you. And I think that kind of approach, at least in the pro sports world really seems to land.

Well, that's, that's so interesting when you're talking about like the environment and the, the inconsistency or inability of humans to detect talent and success. I mean, part of this idea of like asking for help can be even more complex for female founders and founders of color and generally sort of underrepresented or underestimate estimated certainly under capitalized founders when you're sitting in front of a room full of mostly Ivy League middle aged CIS white dudes, right? I mean, so when I'm talking to immigrant founders, female founders who get 2% of the venture capital in the United states, right, in 2022, it's a different story, too, to be able to see that we need to diversify the people on the other side of the desk, too, so that there is common language, comfort, a different way of sort of a different story of what success looks like as well.

You know, what's interesting about this conversation is I always felt like there was going to be a cross contextuality between determining the top performers. I just didn't realize, like, hearing about it and hearing you both how the approaches go, how much there really would be such a crossover. And I think that at various levels, there is a challenge with finding talent, whether you're trying to hire people, whether you're trying to figure out who you're going to put your money in in terms of investment. You know, it's interesting too, because I look at the parallels of the NBA draft. I also look at it as like, you know, that's what venture capital is, right? In a sense, you know, if you really kind of were analogized, it's like the draft, there's like, things that are obviously home runs, like, easy, you know, hey, like, we know this guy is going to be good, right? And. But you look at a guy like Jokic, and it's kind of like a dark horse person who becomes an amazing NBA player. There's companies that get overlooked for years, and then you almost feel like they come out of nowhere and end up taking a market. And to me, there's so many parallels to how can we improve that process. And I think there is a certain level of diversification of thought that can really help with that. But, Alex, you covered a quick item about the actual context and the environment, and I think it plays really well with the whole idea of what Sarah mentioned in regards to the content that we see on a regular basis. And I'd like to take it a step further and say, you know, an environment also provides us with a specific set of content that we, you know, kind of analogize to be a part, you know, solidified as part of our world experience. Right. And one of the things I think that a lot of folks actually struggle with is the, the sort of stories they tell themselves, the, you know, sort of what they consistently tell themselves or, you know, what makes up their beliefs and things that they see in the world around them. And I feel like part of coaching is helping folks really unwind the things that they believe that are, you know, maybe either fundamentally not true or at least to some degree not true to help them move forward. So you both have worked with top performers. How have you helped folks get over those mental hurdles to become top performers or improve their performance when they have those built in and baked in beliefs that are limiting them.

Oh, that's a huge good question. I mean, this is my take on it. I'd love to hear what Alex thinks, but my take is therapy and coaching are kind of two sides of the same coin. Right. And therapy helps us understand and articulate the storytelling of our own lives, how we got where we are today and what shaped us. And then I think coaching takes those insights about ourselves that we hopefully learn and sort of says, now what. What's the kind of forward action plan? So, yeah, I mean, I. I feel like they go hand in hand, and it's.

It's.

It's part of what I love about this job.

Yeah, I agree. They're. They're very similar, and it's sometimes hard to tease them apart. But when I think about the narratives or the stories, and maybe my coaching is informed by my training as a psychologist, so it's pretty hard for me to kind of tease those two things apart. I think everyone's narrative developed originally from a place of utility, right? So the stories that we tell ourselves at one point were actually pretty helpful. Now, whether they had any limitations at the time where they developed or not, like, that's a whole nother story and a good thing to unpack in therapy. But by and large, people don't tell themselves stories, engage in behaviors that are not in some way functional for them. Right. That's how behavior sort of like, sticks and stays. But I think in coaching, what you're trying to do is sort of illuminate the limitations of those beliefs and raise the discrepancies essentially between what you believe and how that's holding you back and where you want to be going, and then figure out new ways of relating to yourself so that you can then move forward. Right? So I think that's one of the things to Sarah's point that coaching can be really valuable for is like the. The. Now what the. So what with the story is, does it still help you? Right. Or in what ways is it holding you back? In what ways is it impacting your journey as a founder, and how is it impacting your business? And then what can we do with that? And oftentimes, the stories can be made just a bit more flexible and useful now because they often developed a long time ago, go in a very different context, and those subtle changes can actually lead to really big differences in behavioral outcomes.

Mikey, I mean, you're a founder you know that storytelling is like one of the most important jobs of a founder, particularly early stage.

Absolutely.

It is your job, right. You're like telling the story so that you get people to come and work for you and attract the best talent you can for not a whole lot of money and a kind of delayed, you know, return on their time investment. It's the same thing that you do for your investors and your customers to believe in you. And the only way to do that for humans with something that doesn't yet exist is story. I mean, that is fundamentally what starting something that doesn't exist means.

Absolutely. And to that point, I think a lot of folks extol the thought process around storytelling and all of the fundamental benefits. And what's really interesting is I've actually been reading this book about how they're linking in the processes of how we process information from like the neocortex limbic system and paleocortex or what people kind of call the lizard brain. You know, kind of an endearing term there. And something that I found was really interesting was this. The, the approach was to actually talk to the limbic system and the lizard brain. Right. Because, you know, lizard is of course, like fight or flight, you know, natural human responses about, like, moving the human race forward. Right. Things like that. But a lot of what happens in storytelling is that people tell the story of facts and figures. There's the lack of actual emotional development. There's the lack of actually tapping into the more fundamental human parts of it. Right. And it's interesting too because, like, there's a lot of folks who are worried about the, you know, the rise of artificial intelligence and things like that. And as far as I know, I don't think there's any machines that feel emotion yet. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that's the fundamental human part of us. Right. The aspect of having those particular fears, having this feeling of non safety and having the idea that we have certain emotions and things that we assign to things which I think lead from our stories. So when people say storytelling, I feel like in the startup world a lot of people misconceive it to be. Let me tell you about my business and how we're going to make a whole ton of money. Yes, that's important. Of course you want to tell people the opportunity, but they don't really touch people in the aspect of actually giving them something that's meaningful. Right. Like, that's why I feel like more people focus on developing the mission and the values of what they do, which then funnel into the aspect of communicating about their overall company story and who they're about. So that's why I've always been fascinated about the stories that we tell ourselves. Right. And I think that it's a greater idea of identity.

Overall, I totally agree with you. Storytelling, to me, is deeper, bigger, more vulnerable than. It's not the same as an elevator pitch or a fundraising pitch. It is how you connect the dots for yourself and therefore for others. I often tell founders, if you're not proactively storytelling about yourself, your company, your mission, your why, what problem you're solving, somebody else will, you know, and if you're not helping your team to be able to kind of all steer in the same direction around the story that you all have, then their fears and that lizard brain will come in and fill up that storytelling space. So, yeah, it's kind of something that we have to do proactively too.

Absolutely. And you know what's interesting, you know, is a similar parallel, you know, for any startup founders. You're basically thrust into this role of, you know, leadership as you start scaling your organization and figuring out how you can actually, you know, sort of work through even the problems that other folks have. And I think it, you know, wears on you. And to a certain, to the same extent, you know, when you have a team of folks like in the NBA, there's, you know, 15 other people or 15 people that are on your team. Right. And it's kind of similar to what I look at as like an early stage startup as well. Well, but, you know, you have the top, you know, best performers that you have, you know, to put out on the floor. And I've, I've always looked at this aspect of how do you get the most out of, you know, trying to figure out everybody's problems and then more importantly, how do you get everybody on the right page? And how do you coach people up through working through their individual problems, whether it's their specific problems or their problems as a, as a unit of people. So from what you've seen working with some of these founders and how they, you know, handle, you know, sort of the team dynamics dynamic, how have you sort of coached them through, you know, team issues or team chemistry, as I like to call it, from like NBA 2K.

I love your MBA 2K reference. That's awesome. Yeah, it's really hard. Like, this is, this is a really hard area, especially if you're working individually. Right. Because it's like everyone's reporting is a Little bit biased, right? We all tell the story from our own perspective. But when I think of really good teamwork and team cohesion, there's sort of like two dimensions to me. So the first, this is me being a nerd for a minute. So hopefully you guys will forgive me for that. But the first dimension is what psychologists would call task cohesion, right? It's the idea that we understand what we're working on together. Everyone has a shared mental model of the best way to execute what it is that we're trying to execute. So the perfect parallel here is the playbook, right? That's why playbooks exist. It is literally a mental model for what we are trying to do as a team that everybody should know and understand. And if you don't, that's where you get play breakdown. That's when you know guys are running off into the wrong space, right? You see that happen, and it throws the whole thing off, and it looks disorganized, it looks uncohesive, right? So that's one element of cohesion that I'm thinking about. And then the second element is kind of relational cohesion, right? Which is a similar concept. It's my mental model of the other people on the team. How well do I understand you? How well do I relate to you? How well do I get? What motivates you, where you're likely to hit a problem, where you're unlikely to hit a problem, what problems you do well. And a lot of this, like in the sports world, happens just over time. You learn more and more about each other, how you like to play. Right? Where to throw a lob for an alley. Oop. All that stuff is kind of tasked but kind of relational, right? So when I work with founders, I'm thinking about those two dimensions, and I'm really thinking about how clear are we about what it is we're trying to accomplish together, and how well do we understand and empathize with one another? And one of the ways to sort of get that alignment is to sort of align the values around the goals around the behavior, right? So if you can trickle all the way down like that, you tend to have pretty good consistency in what people are executing and what I think can often help with that. One of my favorite things to do, and then I'll get off of my teamwork soapbox here, but one of my favorite things to do is to really help founders. And I do this in the MBA to help individuals connect with the values of the organization. But everyone needs to understand what those values mean to each person. So we can all agree that there's a shared set of values where we show up, like, let's say the Raptors, right? Suppose we all agree that respect is an important value here. Well, respect for me might look and feel different than respect for you, Mike, or respect for you, Sarah. And it's actually okay that it's different. All that matters is that I know what it looks like for you and you know what it looks like for me. So we can have this same value. We can align around what's most important important, while also leaving a bit of room for individuality and different coping styles and different motivators. And I think so often when we're thinking about teamwork and cohesion, what we really mean is everyone needs to feel the same. And in the best teams, that's not really how it works. And you see this with like, you know, Steve Kerr and the warriors have done this really well. Pete Carroll and the Seahawks have done this really well where they sort of like create freedom within the structure. That is, I think, the ideal way to sort of bring about this cohesion. And then within that, you can navigate everyone's problems because you know what's expected. You've got a framework for dealing with it. You have guiding values, clear expectations, mental model alignment. And now you're really solving it from the place of where does your world deviate from what's expected and how do we best get you back on track?

Yeah, those phenomenal. Oh, go ahead, Sarah.

Just ditto. I think my only kind of $0.02 is it's I'm a Montessorian, so I'm a trained sort of Montessori person. And in that kind of philosophy, which is sort of the predecessor to developmental psychology, the sense is that you have a prepared environment and it's the founder's job to prepare that environment. And by that I, you know, I think what Alex was alluding to is cohesion, vision, balance, values, etc, and that each person has agency within that environment, but they're not kind of sitting in rows doing their own thing. You know, everyone's doing the same thing, same problem, same minute of the day, that each individual child has sort of their autonomy, freedom of movement and freedom to choose what content they're going to work on, but that they're all achieving the same learning outcomes over time. And I think that's basically the same idea. It's what you see in Google office structures. It's what the kind of modern pedagogy says is ideal for cohort based learning. And I think it's the best for startups.

Yeah, I can agree and definitely echo that sentiment as well. And I think there is a certain sense of maybe it's first time founders or maybe it's just folks who have this sort of complex, of wanting to control situations as best as possible. Right. And I think that it goes back to the idea of uncertainty. People want to be able to control everything because they want to be able to feel that, oh, hey, I have control over this, therefore I have no uncertainty. Right. And it's that fear of that that makes people want to micromanage. And I feel like that whole idea of doing that actually does two major bad things, which is you lose the, you give people too structure, too much structure, the rigidity loses the idea of creativity. Right. Like people aren't going to try and innovate out of it and bring ideas because you've basically indicated to them that that behavior will not be rewarded.

Right.

And there's a certain sense of rewarding folks for actually going beyond what you're doing right now because it's a capability that you want to instill in people. Right. And then I also think that, you know, having guidelines, you know, that you want to follow, like obviously there's certain things that you definitely don't want people to do, but you know, if there's at least ways that people can have that freedom of movement, I think that that's such an important thing. And I also think that it gives people that autonomy, gives people the power to their best selves. And I've never really agreed with the aspect of micromanaging the way people do things, because that would be to say that you would know how to do things better than everybody else. And in that case, why didn't you just hire, why don't you just do everything yourself? What's the point of actually like hiring folks and building out a team and building out a scalable business? You can literally just do everything and be a decently successful person and you know, run a solopreneur career and do all that. But I feel like, you know, there is a fundamental nature that kind of clashes when you have too much structure. So I really appreciate that aspect. You know, when, and I'd also like to, you know, sort of touch on when we, when we have like, let's just say a challenge that comes up, you know, amongst team members, let's just say the dynamic that has happened and there's irreconcilable differences, right? Well, you know, in the NBA that might, might cause a trade but you can't really trade folks at the startup realm, right? You know, especially folks who have equity. Obviously that's more of a legal conversation, but you know, as it pertains to trying to maybe mend situations and getting things back on track before they become a catastrophe, how might folks actually, you know, mend some bridges or maybe find ways to relate to people that they might have fallen out with or you know, have an unhealthy relationship in this top line work, work.

I'm excited to hear what Alex has to say about conflict resolution. You know, it's interesting. I mean, I think when building the team for startups, early, early days, I think a big part of it is really, you know, the founders, there's a couple of like sort of best practices, right? I mean, I think the founders have to be coachable, they have to be pretty self aware. The recruitment process, there's a lot that you can do there to kind of try to prevent some of those outcomes. I think two rules of thumb for early stage founders is hire slow fire fast. And, and two is that not everyone is going to be the best fit for the stage of the company that you are. And it is okay to let people come and go. And so those are two things that I think are important to keep in mind. I mean, I think the third thing is there will always be conflict and it needs to be a space where disagreement is okay and healthy and that there's a culture of repairing, repairing trust, repairing relationship once there is conflict.

Yeah, I totally agree with where you ended. It is, I mean, it's interesting in the sports space because you can in theory just trade someone, but you try not to, to do that. Right. You try to work it out first. And I think there's, you know, one element for me is you don't always have to like everyone that you work with. You just have to respect that someone else adds value. But I think a lot of conflicts that I see really come down to like misunderstandings or misperceptions of value, not feeling valued, feeling generally disconnected. And so for me, I always try to start with just like getting each other to actually hear one another, which can often be the hardest part. But the most important step for kind of building some of that empathy. And this is, I'm sure shaped by my worldview, but like most people are not inherently bad or trying to hurt you. Right. And so if you can sort of start with this baseline level of understanding that we probably want the same outcomes, right. If we're on the same team, we're probably actually after the same thing. We're probably both trying to be successful. We might have different ways of doing it. We might have different thoughts about the direction to take the company or what the most important decision to make is. I think from there we can then try to unpack and hear each other a bit better. I think where conflict gets irreconcilable is really at a point where no one's willing to listen to anyone else. But before that, almost all conflicts can actually be resolved. It doesn't mean it's not going to be hard or uncomfortable or not going to take a bit of work, and it doesn't mean that resolving the conflict is going to lead to people feeling the same. I don't think that's what the resolution needs to be either. But I think with an appropriate understanding of what the possible outcomes are, you can actually work through most things. I mean, as much as, you know, the founder, co founder dynamic is super important and what we're doing in the business space is really important. Like, people deal with much more significant conflict than this that they tend to reconcile. Right. Like spouses cheat on one another and people reconcile that kids run away, parents disown their kids and it, you know, like these things can be healed and so these things can be healed. We could probably heal some co founder conflict if we want to work on it hard enough. Enough. But it does take work and it does take a bit of stepping outside yourself to really be willing to do that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that one of the interesting aspects about all of this is I feel that with smaller teams, you know, and maybe there's maybe statistics that prove me wrong, but I feel like with smaller teams it's easier to talk out a lot of your things because a lot of the process that you have is like, you know, in the early days you might have three people. Like the three of you, you have a dream, right? You're running around trying to sort of filter out what's going to work for you, what doesn't. You're going to try and sort of prove or disprove any hypotheses you have. But I think an underrated aspect and it's something that in preparation for this discussion today, I was thinking about ourselves and our company. And one of the things that I realized was our decision making changed over time. Like how we actually process how we decide to do things. And it actually became that way because is when you have three people getting buy in is fine. Right? Like you're just like, hey, how do you feel about this? How do you feel about this? But every extra person you bring on now has a relationship with every other person, right? And there becomes this fundamental dynamic. And, you know, there's like that. You ever see the circle that has all the lines drawn to it to show all the connections? Right. So I look at that and I realize that level of complexity, I feel like, is where people start, start to lose the initial mores and values of the company sometimes like what they fundamentally built it off of. And so as you start getting bigger, people have a new story, a new idea of what the company is about, their own perception of and worldview of what this company is supposed to accomplish and why they join. And that might actually be quite different from the original founding, three or four folks. And I feel like that actually can sometimes lead to that significant conflict that, you know, is sort of hallmarks to what Sarah was talking about. Certain people, skillset wise, are only good at certain levels of the company, like early scaling or, you know, when you go out and start getting bigger. But I also think that sometimes it's really also somebody just not having the same ability to adapt to that vision. Right. Because they really were, you know, vibing with the first vision, which was about, you know, what you were doing in the early days, and now you have something completely new. So, you know, when folks are trying to maybe reconcile some of that. Right. I think that that's where people run into challenges. So in your work, in working with some of these founders, how do you, you know, how do you work with folks in such a way to allow them to be comfortable with that whole dynamic of changing messages or like changing, you know, maybe some of the ways that you operate that could have inherent frict every interpersonal connection that they have, whether it's a team in the NBA or whether it's, you know, a startup company.

Well, I think a general rule in sports is you coach the team you have, not the team you want. So I think it starts with sort of understanding, like the players, right. And recognizing who is a part of your group and really trying to, I mean, look, until you hit like more than 150 people, there is a world where you can actually probably have somewhat of an individual connection with these people and understand at least what motivates them and what they need and try to individualize things. And obviously, you know, a good management structure can support that. And so the way I think about it is like, you know, in the sports space, you try to get the players to buy in, which means you Invite some of their ideas, you encourage them to participate in the shared decision making. You tailor a bit of what you do because the players that you have change every year. And ultimately it's part of your job as a leader to put the team in a position to be successful, recognizing that if the team believes in what they're doing and what you're doing, and they believe that what you're asking them to do fits with their vision, they're likely to perform better, which is going to make you look better and the whole team look better. Right. And so I think one of the places coaches can struggle in pro sports, and I'm sure this is a parallel to being a founder, is you get so tied into your own ideas about the way to do it that you lose sight of the fact that really the outcome is what matters. It doesn't really matter like whose idea it was or whose vision it was or what the exact messaging is, as much as it matters that everyone can pull in one direction and we can all sort of align on that. And so I think for coaches, that's how I try to work with the coaches I work with is look like you can share your vision, you can cast your ideas, but you should give some freedom to the rest of the team to shape this a little bit and make it their own so that they feel attached to what this is, so that they feel connected to this larger vision. And once they feel connected, even if they talk about it a little bit differently or use their own words, we all again, have that shared mental model, what this means, and now we can be moving forward together. I'd be curious what you think, Sarah.

I mean, I think that's all really relevant. I'm just agreeing, I'm nodding. I think as a team grows from 3 people to 50 to 100, things shift, right? I mean, the one constant is change, for sure, both in the company and the structure in the day to day work behaviors. Certainly within each individual, you're constantly growing and adapting to the new stage. And certainly that's true for the CEO and the founders. It goes from being more implicit to explicit processes. It goes from proactive, you know, sort of innate storytelling to proactive storytelling where these structures and processes and touch points and communications channels are more intentional versus, you know, organic. Right? And if, if everyone can kind of be aware of what that is that we're sort of describing and acknowledging where we are in each stage, that's kind of the job of the founder to do for the team is to say, oh yeah, we're here now and we're going to do this this way now because that's what's happening. That's kind of what I mean by storytelling on an active, proactive basis. And so, yeah, I mean, there is, there is nothing but change in the start.

Absolutely. And, you know, I think that, well, going back to the whole concept of, you know, the mental health conversation as well, I think that, you know, certain roles are going to cause certain, you know, kind of feelings and eventually leading towards, you know, that feeling of maybe like, isolation. Like if you're in a leadership role, folks might treat you a different way. And so you don't feel like you can necessarily voice that you have problems and challenges because, you know, if you're the, you know, top of the flagpole, so to speak. Right. Like, there's not, you don't want to necessarily discuss like, with your, you know, folks who are employees and things like that. Sometimes, hey, I'm, I'm actually struggling with like, depression or something like that. And I feel like that's kind of the added, you know, sort of weight that comes with folks who are in the leadership position sometimes because, because you have to have a certain level of fortitude and I say somewhat of consistency, that folks need to be able to believe in that. And you are able to obviously communicate through the medium of storytelling. But there are certain things that you might not be able to mention to people and that will obviously aggrandize those issues. So for folks who have things that maybe they're not necessarily comfortable sharing with their team, team, what do you recommend is a good opportunity for somebody to have an outlet for, you know, some of those mental health issues or challenges that they might be, you know, experiencing that they can't necessarily talk to their own folks at the company with.

You know, one thing that I, that comes to mind is may be okay to share more than, than we might assume. It just might be uncomfortable and, or not the norm in their culture or family or whatever, or in Silicon Valley. But it, it could be seen as a source of strength and inspiration rather than a source of risk or weakness too. So that's a sort of challenge to that paradigm. But yeah, founders, I mean, peer groups are so invaluable for them. Every founder should have a coach, I think, and I'm biased, obviously, and I think every founder should also have a therapist, but they should also have, you know, really clear sort of system of kind of bottom of the pyramid stuff. Sleep, nutrition, exercise, those kinds of things. I mean, it's, it's not it's underestimated how important that stuff really is.

Yeah, I think you, you answered it well. I think it's the obvious ones to me are therapists and coaches, right? I mean, great, independent sort of third party resources that can help you offer some support that are there to listen to you and train to sort of offer that guidance. I agree peer support groups can be valuable in taking care of the basics. But I think, yeah, I also agree with Sarah's point that there might be some merit to sharing more than you would originally feel comfortable with. I think sometimes the story we tell ourselves is that sharing that stuff is going to be displaying our weakness and that says a little bit about our own ideas around mental health and the way we think of these things. And so sometimes you sharing as a leader gives other people permission to do the same. It gives other people permission to go get help if they need help. And so obviously there's an art to doing that and a way to do it that's tactful and done well. But I'd agree with sharing and I think bigger picture, I'd encourage all of the founder community to really think of themselves like high performers. Right. It's the same thing I deal with when I'm working with coaches and not athletes. Like your performance matters and part of that is your own well being and your mental health. Part of that is being able to achieve peak performance. It's all the basics. Sleep, nutrition, hydration, exercise, relationships. Like all this stuff plays a huge part in your overall functioning. And so you don't necessarily have to get all those at the company. Right. Like that's what you know, these other resources and spaces around you are for. But if you can sort of do the foundational stuff well then sharing I think can be a really powerful, powerful way to kind of move the whole company forward.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that there's a really good paradigm with actually athletes who have shared their mental health struggles. Right. And you know, folks who are Olympic, Olympic athletes, right. They're talking about how, you know, they feel things like depression or anxiety. And you know, I think that if there, if there's probably one common human trait in today's digital age, I feel like people have some level of anxiousness about something due to the level of like information sharing and like what you probably deal with on a regular basis. So, you know, to be able to allow people to know that hey, it's okay to be able to share, that is such a important fundamental thing that, you know, I think is a good part of Where I feel like the mental health conversation is coming, going to allow people to say, yeah, I really deal with this stuff, you know, some of it has maybe influenced my behaviors in the past. And being open to just allowing folks to peer in to what your, you know, what your headspace, you know, is like, is I think the first step in allowing all of us to, you know, really communicate that with more people. And you know, what you said at the beginning of this, you know, conversation Sarah, about like the high level of suicide rates, I think, I think that's what keeps people from actually getting to a point where they can feel like they are getting help, right, because they can't intimate some of these thoughts and feelings. And the only way they feel like they can stop these pains and anxieties and things like that is to obviously go that route. So I think that by empowering people to share those stories, more of the stories about what they're really dealing with, with, I think that we can all be just better because of it. So, you know, of course I know that we've, you know, kind of getting to the top of the hour here. So I did want to of course offer the opportunity to share, you know, anything that either of you would like to promote, whether it's, you know, maybe an initiative you're working on or you know, some of the coaching that you're doing. So in interest of obviously giving you the floor to share more of what you do, you, you know, we'd love to hear more.

We're coaches. I work with awesome coaches, founders and teams and execs, primarily pre seed through series B or C in venture backed companies. I love working with, you know, they're sort of traditionally under capitalized founders, first time founders and co founding teams and Alex and I are venturing in and doing some coaching together I hope in the near future.

And that's going to be super fun. I, I also do some coaching. I write a newsletter called Perform, you can find it on Substack. But if you're interested in my coaching, I tend to work best with people who like the sports parallel. You know, if you, if you also think of yourself as a sort of executive athlete or a high performer and you're interested in translating some of the principles and practices of peak performance from sport into your space, then I think I'm a good fit for that. So I appreciate the opportunity to share. Mike.

Absolutely. And of course, you know, any links or you know, obviously I'll be connecting, you know, any profiles of course as well, but any links that have to do with both of your coaching will of course be going up on the post as well so you'll be able to find that information there. But you know, I just want to say again, thank you both so much for, you know, taking the time out to discuss these elements. I feel like we could go on forever talking about, you know, all the aspects of this and you know, where, where people have, you know, their mental health challenges and sort of the dynamics of, you know, whether it's startup teams or NBA teams and top performers. So I just want to once again thank you both so much for taking the time out to be with us today.

Thank you for having me, Mike.

All right. Well, for those of you listening at home or around the world, thank you so much once again for tuning in. We appreciate you and we will see you next week for the next edition of the free Fuse sessions. Have a great rest of your day.