How to Improve Anxiety & Enhance Mental Performance in Athletes w/ Alex Auerbach, PhD

Foreign.

Alex, thanks so much for taking the time today.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Well, listen, I've got a million different questions for you. I'm really, I'm really looking forward to picking your brain on all things performance and mental performance. But maybe to kick things off, you can tell folks a little bit more about yourself and your and your background.

Sure. I'm the director of wellness and development for the Toronto Raptors. And so my background is as a counseling and sports psychologist. So I did my doctorate in counseling psychology and got some specialized training and ultimately a certified mental performance consultant. Recognition and specialization in sport and performance psychology. But before I became a sports psychologist, I was heavily involved in the coaching world and had really wanted to be a coach for the early part of my professional life. And so I had worked a little bit in college football, had done a couple internships in the NFL before pivoting to sports psychology and was fortunate enough to go through a really strong training program that sort of allowed me to stay connected with football. And that was my first kind of passion before graduating. And then most recently before joining the Raptors, I was the director of clinical and sports psychology at the University of Arizona, which was also a great opportunity to serve a different population than the one I work with now, 100%.

My wife is a former University of Arizona. Go cats.

Yeah, Bear down. I love it.

There you go. You know, I don't think as athletes, even practitioners, we realize this different motivations behind our endeavors. And so you've done some work in that. And it's really fascinating when you start to peel things back around these sort of motivations because when we're unaware of them, it's not so easy to find the right then tools to be able to support performance. So can you talk a bit about your work and achievement motivation and how that impacts things like anxiety and sports related endeavors?

Yeah, I think the motivation factor is obviously hugely important in sport performance, but across kind of all performance domains, even things like parenting, if you think of raising your kids as one 18 year performance, at least in American culture, before you send them off to college, you know, motivation is a big part of that. And so, you know, the achievement motivation framework is kind of the backbone of a lot of Carol Dweck's work. She really popularized that, Popularized, excuse me, that framework with the growth mindset and fixed mindset paradigm. But you know, there's sort of other layers to that and you know, at its core really achievement motivation theories around these two different constructs, you know, and it's basically, are you motivated to demonstrate talent or are you motivated to improve skill and learn? And that's a very basic way of framing the distinction. And I think it's been sort of looked at or talked about more popularly as though they're kind of mutually exclusive. And I think what we find is you can really be high in both. Right. You can want to demonstrate competence and also be highly motivated to learn, or you can have really any configuration of motivation. But I think what it means is that these different ways of thinking about the performance task you have are almost like a lens or eyeglasses over how you look about the other dimensions of your performance. And so if everything that you do is reflective of your kind of innate talent or baseline ability or core identity, it can be very anxiety provoking to move through the world sort of constantly feeling evaluated, even if other people are not evaluating you that way. Right. If you're evaluating yourself that way, I think that's, that's taxing and anxiety provoking and you know, sort of conversely, if you look at, you know, the different experiences you have as an opportunity to sort of benchmark your current progress and then examine where you can learn and grow and improve and the impact effort may have on that, then, you know, all of a sudden you've taken, you know, really the same performance, but you've re. Reframed it as largely within your control and something that you can navigate, you know, a little bit more with, with greater agency. And so I think you start to see some different outcomes around things like performance anxiety, perceived effort, time to failure, and kind of giving up. And so that's where you saw, you know, in my dissertation, grit and some of those other things come. But I think as a, as a foundational element, this one part of motivation I think is pretty important. And I think it's interesting because it speaks to what motivates people in a particular performance at a particular point. And you can start to see some of those associated behavioral patterns if you unpack it a little bit.

Yeah, and it gets really fascinating when you get to the highest level because you've got athletes who might not have realized that a lot of their motivation comes from this appearing to be competent, which indeed they are. But the fact that they've succeeded so highly and so well at the high school and the collegiate levels and that for the first time the professional level is going to be where they are confronted with this new challenge of not only not being the star, but being down the line of options. And it's Amazing then how all of a sudden, you know, as you must be well aware, the internal, you know, the internal wheels start. Start turning. And these are not that we would imagine now if we're starting to build more and more, but these are skills that now, all of a sudden we need in a. In a high capacity. But we're at the. We're at the knife's edge in terms of being there. And so that idea around increased anxiety, I mean, you know, you found things like the mindfulness piece. You know, can you speak to the mindfulness as it relates to how that skill can support that, you know, reduction in anxiety or other skills that might be beneficial?

Yeah, Well, I think too, I want to touch on, you know, you raise a really important point around kind of climbing the ladder in sports. And I think what's notable about the achievement motivation literature is how much environment really shapes, you know, the beliefs we ultimately internalize and what motivates us. And so I think, you know, and I can tie that into mindfulness here in a second. But I think that's. That's really important for people to sort of tune into. I think Carol Dweck's work has really illuminated how minor language changes can really, really impact how someone sees their performance. And then ultimately it comes to be something that we hold onto individually, but we're all a product of our environment to a degree. And so I think that piece is really important and was a lot of what I tried to manipulate a little bit in my dissertation is seeing what these little changes in language would bring about in terms of performance outcomes. And so where mindfulness comes in for me is I think you can look at the different defin and how people have sort of operationalized it. But ultimately, I think about it a lot as sort of the ability to be present and step up or step back in the moment based on what you're hearing and what you're responding to. And so I think for me, this mindfulness element was around, you know, how do people learn to hear and respond to feedback? And if you're, you know, my theory was if you're kind of a lower mindfulness person, you know, there's certainly some advantages to being more in, like, automatic mode too, right? So you got to think about that. But if you're a person who's lower and kind of that state mindfulness or has a tendency to be more susceptible or less mindful than the thinking was, you know, you might be highly influenced by feedback, right? Because it's just sort of you're taking it, you're internalizing it, you're not necessarily stepping back, observing, deciding if that's helpful or harmful, letting it go. It's just kind of a part of your narrative now. And high mindfulness, folks, we sort of thought the opposite. Right. Like if you, you know, if you're higher in mindfulness, you'll be able to sort of think through a little bit more and observe this feedback and then decide like, is this something I need to hold on to right now or not? And so I think from a skill standpoint, mindfulness is a great skill to think about incorporating into everyone's arsenal, really. And you know, myself, I've meditated for like eight years, almost every day now, and it's had a tremendous impact on my life. So I'm a little biased, but I think, you know, it's a, it's a simple skill to start to practice, but not easy in a way to start to sort of pick apart some of the thinking patterns that go on and some of the automatic ways we respond to not only our internal self talk, but the feedback we get from the environment. And then I think other skills, you know, I think reframing is an important skill to start to play with a little bit, particularly around thinking and sort of these kinds of feedback moments. Right. You know, interpersonally with feedback, you can kind of take or leave what you want, but I think a lot of people just take it. And so, you know, I think learning to leave and reframe is important. And I'm sure there are other ones in there too.

And if we circle back to even just the mindfulness, are there specific techniques that you yourself or with clients that you find, you know, if you're introducing a young athlete or a client who's new to that, are there certain techniques, whether it's a breathing technique, whether it's, you know, mindful immersion, or some of these different strategies that we can use to get people onboarded onto this.

Yeah, I've experimented a ton and I think what, what I found resonates most for people who want to get started is music. And the way I've used music is, you know, I've asked someone to an instrumental track to a song that they can tolerate listening to for five minutes. So, you know, I don't necessarily want you picking your favorite song. And I think there's value to picking a novel song where you're sort of like having to pay attention, but then pick out one instrument or one element of that track and see if you can just follow that track. The Whole time. And then you can start to see, you know, when you get distracted, come back to that part of the track. When you get distracted, come back. And people have varying experiences around that. You know, some folks really quickly immerse into that, following that track, and other folks, it's like I can't even get to the one. You know, I don't know what to pick. But it's, it's a. I think it's a pretty accessible way to introduce the concept that doesn't necessarily rely on some of the more popular social techniques. Right. Things like breathing or, you know, mindful eating, which, you know, all of those have tremendous value. But I think it can feel daunting to people to say, you know, hey, sit in a chair for two minutes and, you know, take three deep breaths.

Think about how you're breathing.

Yeah, that's it.

Think about how I'm breathing.

Yeah, exactly.

Adding a stressor. But I like that. I mean, that's a great idea around just listening to a track or music and then you can, you can immerse yourself in that. You know, it's amazing to see just how much things have changed since I played basketball, because it's amazing to see at the end of practice now, you know, coaches, young players, even, you know, lying on the floor after a stretch, maybe putting their hand on the belly, doing a little bit of this breathing. But again, in an environment that feels pretty safe and it's a short time span, so that's pretty cool to see. And you mentioned reframing there. And Dr. Peter Jensen, our sports Psychic Canada Basketballs, talked a lot about reframing, and that's something that's also hugely powerful. I mean, again, if we come back to this narrative, and I'm sure people, practitioners working with their clients or people who are successful in other domains, you're going to get to a point where you don't achieve it or there's a roadblock in the way. And it sounds so simple to reframe, but it can be really challenging for athletes, especially, again, when we're used to success and we get to a very high level and this is the first time that we might be getting rejection or failure. Can you walk people through that sort of reframing process? And again, maybe some of the techniques.

That you might use. Sure. I mean, so I think the first thing that's really important to note that you've hit on too, is to just remember that this is a skill, right? So like anything, you know, you don't just show up to the Championship game with no practice and hope that you score 40 points. Right. Like you got to put in the work and mental skills and mental training is no different. And so, you know, when you get to those big moments, the more practice you have, you know, subtly reframing events in your everyday life, I think it can really make a big difference. And so for me, reframing is all about sort of redirecting attention to a more helpful way of thinking about a particular problem. I tend to gravitate less towards specific language use or positive or negative because I think what I've found in my experience is sometimes that's sort of like self critical. Internal dialogue can actually be pretty motivating for people, you know, and there's some interesting work out there that suggests that like, you know, a little bit of quote unquote, negative emotion is actually a sort of necessary component of striving for high performance. Right. Like failure.

That's like the old school basketball. What I grew up with was, you know, the tongue lashing to get everything, to get everything going, which does work, but it's sort of. There's a tipping point, I imagine.

Yeah, yeah. I don't want that for everyone. Right. And so I think my, my argument would be for a more nuanced approach. Right. And a little bit of individualization there. But I do think there are some people that it does work to sort of, you know, have the internal dialogue be, you know, a little bit more kind of critical sounding, if you will. But I think, I think a few things are relevant here. So the first is putting the experience into perspective. Right. I think that's a really helpful one. So if I even go sort of out of the sport domain and think about my work with college students, you know, failing an exam in the moment feels like a huge experience. I can honestly say 10 years later, not a single person I've ever met.

Has ever asked me about that exam I had.

Right. And I think that's a great, you know, that's a great way of just sort of helping people put a different spin on it. And then I think about.

And just to stop you there, Alex, I've heard you mention that in a recent tweet, just around this idea of like the decisions that we make and like, you know, if you could stop yourself for a minute and think 10 years from now, how would you respond to this event? Just like you mentioned, I mean, it really reshapes and totally reframes how you, how you think about something, isn't it? But at the moment, when you're in this, I failed an exam or this event didn't go well. You know, it's amazing how that can really derail us, right?

Oh, for sure. I think, you know, as intensity of emotion rises, right. The wheels turn a little bit more and you almost get sucked in. And it's this, you know, self fulfilling prophecy to a degree and a little bit of a spiral and a loop. Right. We're just stuck in how we feel. And then we think about how we feel and then we feel more intensely. And then we think about how we feel, feel more intensely. And you know, I think the more we could step out of that, then we can start to play with like, okay, what is this emotion about? And so I think that's an important part of reframing too is instead of looking at this experience as like, you know, this is incredibly emotionally challenging. I don't want to deny that because I think feeling what you feel is really relevant. And then I think the question is, instead of, you know, how do I get rid of this feeling right away, it's how do I learn from what this feeling is? You know, what can I do differently in the future so that, you know, when I encounter something like this again, I feel better prepared or I'm positioned to take over. And so I think a lot of the reframing components are really just about, you know, truly like if you imagine changing the picture frame around a particular experience, things look different when you do that. And so I think it's that same kind of, kind of approach, like trying on these different lenses and seeing if you can see the experience for what it is from multiple angles. And then, you know, try to take what's useful and leave behind what's maybe not so helpful.

Yeah, I mean it's such a powerful tool and it's almost like we need a post it reminder or something or a friend to remind or practitioner. Because like you mentioned, we get stuck into this vortex of thinking about it and how it impacts us that we can't just pause for a minute and step outside of ourselves and just kind of, you know, revisit the situation from that sort of third party's perspective or take it from that five years, 10 years down the road and it just takes on a whole different light. So really powerful in the sense of if people are, you know, as you're trying to achieve all these things, these setbacks are gonna are a natural part of the learning process, aren't they? And we talk about mindset skills and of course, you know, values are such A crucial part, the mindset skills really help to cement one's values. And of course, we talk about team culture and the values that organizations or professional sports teams have. And when we think about value, like the way that we converse and we talk and the languages that we use is also a key part of that. Can you, can you talk about how language can influence, you know, not only our own thoughts, but some of the outcomes?

Yeah, I think the more I think about language, the more I'm sort of arriving at a conclusion that I have yet to solidify with real science back data. But I would bet it's out there and I'm going to go looking for it is. You know, I really think language is the fundamental unit of culture and not only, you know, broader societal culture, but how you talk about things in a particular organization I think really says a lot about who you are as a group of people. And so I think, you know, before the values, like you're saying, just how you talk about things and the way your organization communicates and people communicate, I think is a really, really critical part of understanding how we do things, wherever it is that we're doing things. And I think the same thing is true internally. You know, if you think of self talk like, that's just a bunch of languaging at yourself. And so thinking about the words you use, I think is really important. And I think we often underestimate the impact of the frequency with which we hear certain words. Right. So if you hear things like, if we take it back to the achievement motivation for a second, if you hear things like, man, I can't believe you just dropped 40, you're so good, you're such a talented basketball player. That might be true, but all that languaging is shuffling this person toward more of a fixed mindset, which is like, oh, you know, all my outcomes are relevant to my talent. They're not relevant to these other dimensions of my performance. And if you go in contrast, it's like, no, you scored 40 points, like, wow, you must have worked really hard getting ready for this game. And you know, talk me through your film review, like, what did that look like? And how can we replicate that now all of a sudden the language is really about effort and focus and these other things that are a little bit more controllable. And I think that has a huge, huge impact on how people start to think of themselves. And I think narrative and identity is a huge piece of what I think about too. I think language is a big part of how we start to tell Our stories and how we make sense of things for ourselves. And people are inherently motivated to find some level of coherence in their own narrative and in the cultures they live in. And language is a huge part of that coherence. And so the more we can be intentional about crafting that narrative and thinking about how people fit into a larger cultural or team narrative and cultivate belonging and those sorts of. Sorts of things with the words we use, I think. I think the better positioned we are to, you know, support everyone and create healthier internal dialogues and healthier, you know, interpersonal dialogues as well.

Yeah, again, it's.

It's.

There's so many layers there. We don't even realize when we have young athletes or children or whatever that we do say, you know, hey, great performance at that recital, or great job. You scored 40 points. And we end up perpetuating, as you say, this sort of fixed mindset versus circling back and creating that shift on the process or the effort required and all these types of things. And again, it's subconscious for most coaches or even parents. Right. They're not really realizing that this is actually taking place. But it's interesting to see all the research that we have now just to show that this is actually. And you see it even in young kids, whether it's a test or a drawing or whatever it is. And so now, you know, myself with three little ones at home, it's like the wheels are now turning of like, okay, I've got to really upskill myself.

So.

So that side is something that comes to mind, and the other one is just around the openness of communication as well. Like that ability when we talk about language, I mean, we have the idea that are we all sort of speaking the same language or do we understand the language? And then there's just that openness of is everyone actually going to participate in the conversation? You know, can you talk a bit about just the openness of being able to communicate so that we can actually even understand what everyone's values are versus some environments, Even if it's not on purpose, people don't feel that openness, and then we don't get that same conversation.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think if I look at the team effectiveness literature and what makes teams work, you know, so there's definitely kind of a culture element to teams that's really important, which is based on language and again, some of the ways we talk about ourselves. But I think the other one that comes to mind really easily, a couple processes that come to mind easily And I would bet there are more here too is the concept of shared mental models is really, really important. And one of the things we find is kind of fundamental to a team success. And the easiest comparison I can draw or metaphor I can draw for a shared mental model is a playbook. So if I call a play, we all have to know what every word in that play means. Otherwise we're going to be running two different things and we're going to miss each other, we're going to make mistakes, and those are all things we're trying to minim in the process of performance. And so obviously the more closed you are, the less information you have around building a shared mental model. And shared mental model would also apply to things like values, right? So if I know what motivates you and I understand your role on the team and I understand how you think about what you do, then the better able I am to support you when you need support or encourage or hear where you're coming from and all these things. And so now we've created the shared mental model of our relationship essentially and we understand each other and that can be really important. And so I think openness is just a huge factor in that one. Because if you're not talking, you're not building that shared kind of information bank. And there's kind of this concept of transactive memory in teams which is along the same lines. Basically. The more shared information we have and the less concentrated information is within one node, the more we can sort of specialize roles and help people figure out where to access the right information and from whom. And so it's not necessarily that, you know, if I take my sport right now, for example, like I don't necessarily need the center to know how to play point guard, but I do kind of need the center to know what the point guard knows.

So that NBA, you never know, right?

It's a little bit more, more flexible right now for sure. And so I think those, you know, those things are hugely, hugely important. And then I think if you get into the real interpersonal dimensions of openness, there are all these things around vulnerability and connection and belonging and creating shared meaning that I think are hugely, hugely important to that. And so those would all be things I would be encouraging leaders and team members to think about. Choosing not to share is not only about protecting yourself, but choosing not to share is also actually limiting your teammates ability to help you, to work with you, your coach's ability to help you and work with you and is limiting the team in some ways. And that doesn't mean you have to share everything about you, but it does mean the more you feel comfortable sharing about you and how you operate in this particular context, the better able your team can function.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I just heard some quotes from Shaq Barrett of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers linebacker who just recently resigned. And he talks about Tom Brady coming in. And one of the things he talks about is just how he came in and was immediately just one of the guys and was connecting with everyone and talking with everyone, and people felt comfortable around him. And then all of a sudden there's these bonds that start to form on one side. It seems natural, but it's like, you know, the more connection you have with someone now, all of a sudden you're willing to run through the wall for them, or you're willing to put all that sweat and work in because you've got this. This connection with the person versus. You know, sometimes we try to. Every. Every team wants to create culture, right? Every team wants to create, but. But still, very few do. And, you know, obviously the great run you guys have had at the Raptors, I mean, he's done a tremendous job on that. But that. Can you speak to that idea of just some of the. You spoke a bit about that idea of vulnerability, but some of these relationships and how do we, you know, if we could just magically get everyone to get along and be friends, we could. We could accelerate this. But it's not that easy, is it?

Yeah, well, and I don't even know that. That I want everyone to necessarily, like, get along all the time.

We need some friction, right?

Yeah. You know, some level of. I think Adam Grant's new book, Think Again, frames it, frames it well. Like kind of disagreeable Givers, I think is good. You know, people who want to disagree because they want to make you better, not people who are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. I don't know that I think that's productive, but I think the vulnerability element is. Is huge. I think it, you know, people. The more people understand you, we have a lot more in common with everybody else than we tend to realize. And so that vulnerability really creates an avenue for people to start to see themselves as similar to you. But I think the other things we can do are create shared values. Right. And values are a way to signal levels of inclusion and belonging beyond motivation. And I think motivation at an individual level works really well for values and at a team level. But I think it also, you know, if we co. Create and agree on what those values are. You know, that's also different sort of touch points or points of connection where people can jump in and feel a part of something and they don't have to resonate with everything, but they can really resonate with, you know, one or two or three things. And that. That can sort of enough. And then I think, you know, if you think about, like, the Shaq Barrett and Tom Brady dynamic, you know, I think one element of that that's really important is, you know, Tom Brady fitting in and being a great leader and the way he talks to people and wants to educate, but he also, you know, he walks the walk too. Right. Like, he's working hard doing those things. And I think that's a huge part of, you know, kind of the culture destruction a little bit is often there's a mismatch between what people are preaching.

And what they're practicing, 100%. And it's interesting. A few years ago, I chatted with Dr. Andrew Kring, who's a behavioral ecologist, and he uses all these animal models to show what, you know, that leader, follower dynamic and how it differs in different animal models. And, you know, it is fascinating, that idea of, like, if the individual is willing to go through it, like, Tom Brady is not asking anyone to do anything he's not willing to do. He's not asking everyone to not eat nightshades either. And, you know, he's putting in the hours, like you said, and he's. He's approachable. He's all, you know, whether it's contract, and that's actually. It seems like a straightforward formula, yet it's so rare. Right. It's. It's not what every, you know, alpha player is. Is doing. And apart from that leader, follower dynamic, does that provide a layer of vulnerability to show everyone, hey, I'm part of the group, or what is it about that that then galvanizes everyone else to say, hey, we're ready to follow this person?

Yeah. I think the vulnerability is a great framework for that in my mind, because I think it's sort of stepping out of the larger sport narrative for sure. But even I think of American culture narrative is all around this idea that basically there's only one pie in the world, and so you just gotta get as much of the pie as you can, and there's no way to share the pie. And that we couldn't all enjoy eating pie at a dinner table together. And I. I think everybody loves Tom. Yeah, everyone does love by it. I think what Tom Brady does a Great job of is sort of showing people like, you know, my success doesn't mean that you're not successful, or your success doesn't mean I'm not successful. And we can share in this together and we can do things together. And this isn't about me versus you in terms of, you know, competing and I'm trying to get better than you. This is me competing with you because I want to get better with you. And I think it does take a certain level of humility and vulnerability to be able to look at things like I'm going to bring everybody along, not only because I think that's the right thing to do, but because I genuinely believe that bringing everyone along means we're all going to share in this victory together, we're all going to be a part of this. And then that really motivates people. But you have to step out of this framework of, well, if I don't do as well or if I put energy over here, that means I'm not getting mine and I'm not putting the energy into me. And so what's going to happen with that? And I think, you know, there's, I mean, even if I look back at some of the team research I've done, there's a good bit of research that suggests that even in collectivistic cultures there's like a little bit more of that team cohesion and just greater team effectiveness and work teams, just by virtue of the culture more generally being oriented toward people wanting to help one another more than we see in the culture I grew up in. And so I think that that part of it's really interesting and starting to think about it a little bit more as kind of like the infinite game model of Simon Sinek than the Fin.

You know, obviously Brady coming out was like a fifth or sixth round pick, like he was working his tail off just to get a chance. And wasn't what we've discussed here a little bit, which is that player that's just so uber successful at every level. And obviously he was successful to a certain degree, but he was not that player that was just the can't miss number one draft pick. You know, we talk about and how environment influences us and how can you speak a little bit to maybe some of those potentially mindset skills or things that he had to develop just through that sort of background?

Yeah, I think adversity is like a really good teacher. Right. And so I think obviously he's got a tremendous amount of resilience and there's some great research out There around like the rocky road to the top. That I think speaks a lot to different levels of adversity that people encounter and how that sort of shapes their, again, their narrative of their resilience. So I think those are big ones for him. I think the persistence is a huge one. And obviously he's very passionate about what he does. And I think all of those things sort of push people toward the more observable behaviors that we tend to link up with folks who are in that sort of sphere. The late round draft pick who's very successful. So there's probably some level of ability to make up for perceived physical deficits with intellectual abilities. Right. Like, intelligence is a predictor of. Of job performance across domains. And so I think that's highly relevant.

Quarterback performance as well.

Yeah, so I think that's highly relevant. But I think those other characteristics, like, also push people toward working hard. Right. And toward, you know, putting in extra time. And I think the other thing that Tom Brady, if we're using him as the example, has been remarkable at has been his balance between the working hard and also this taking care of himself and resting and. And I think he's done a pretty good job of giving voice to. And LeBron James is another one giving voice to like, sleep and some of these other behaviors. But I think what they've done is, you know, instead of relying on that physical talent to sort of carry them through their career, they've had to develop these other compensatory mechanisms to find ways to improve their odds of performing better by tapping into these other things that just generally some athletes may not tap into. Right. If I go back to my college days, like, and sometimes happens in the NBA still, right. Guys want to stay up late and play video games or whatever, that's fine. But that does impact how you show up tomorrow. And so I think thinking about those things are some of the things that, that kind of motivation, that passion, identifying as a hard worker, values around performance and being successful. And, you know, I think for Tom Brady, I don't know that he set out to become the greatest of all time, but I think he set out to be a great football player and to prove people wrong. And so those things, now you start to get into a space where you can identify these other behaviors that'll support that. And I think that's really, really helpful.

Yeah. And this discussion on values, you know, if we're talking about trying to uncover our own personal values or building organization or team values, because, you know, now we see this more commonly talked about and people are trying to be more introspective or have their group, whether it's a clinical group or performance group, et cetera, or company. You know, are there strategies you use that are different between an individual organization or what are some of the tools that you might use to help an individual or an organization start to uncover what their values really are?

Yeah, I think they're similar, but I guess I frame them a little differently. So, you know, I think for me, kind of my sort of go to exercise for thinking about individual level values is just helping people think about how they want to be remembered at, say, their 90th birthday party or their retirement party. You know, imagine that you're at the end of your professional career and everybody that matters to you, living or dead, shows up and they're all going to get up and say something about you. Not what would they say today, but what do you want them to say about who you are as a person and what you meant to them? And people will come back with some incredibly insightful and deep motivating things, like I want to be remembered as a really kind person or as the person who always helped other people or as an achiever. And, and all of that's great, but people just don't often get the chance to give voice to that. And so I think just having someone ask those kinds of questions can be illuminating. And so that's the individual way I tend to unpack it because I think those are events that people can imagine without having to live and can really sort of put themselves in those shoes. And sometimes it can help to go through a little bit of like a guided imagery to really get into it. But I think the crux of the activity is around imagining that. And I kind of extrapolate that out to the team level, organization level, which is, you know, imagine in 50 years they're going to get your organization back together and recognize you as, you know, the best team that, that we've had in the company. Like, how do you want to be talked about? What do you want to be recognized for? What does best really mean? What kind of qualities did you have? How did you pass on your knowledge? How did you work together? Who are you as individuals, as teammates? Like, how did you connect with people? I think those, those activities can be, can be helpful. And then there obviously are steps after the identifying the values, but I think those are the ways I think about sort of bringing to light some of them. And I've heard some other really fun, creative ways. So. So the other really Fun one I like is people are more used to this now is the ESPN 30 for 30 concept. So it's kind of like, you know, they made a 30 for 30 about you.

Who would be in it?

Yeah. What would it be called? What would it be about? And what would I learn if I watched you in this 30 for 30? What would I learn about you? And I think the same thing can go with a team. If they made a 30 for 30 documentary about the Elon Musk team that launched the rocket, what do you want people to know about you? What do you want people to see? I think those kinds of questions are interesting.

Yeah, it's fascinating when I've used similar techniques with clients or athletes, even when they start to describe some of those things and if some of their habits or behaviors at the moment are really, you know, oriented 180 degrees away from that, it is amazing how just them saying it, you can just see the lights going off, that the things that they're doing now, whether it's nutrition, exercise, sleep, et cetera, are not in alignment with the story that they've just given you. Could you talk a little bit about that? I mean, I imagine you must get that a lot of, like some.

The.

Of somebody lays out this story to you, and then it's plainly obvious and likely to them that the things that they're doing are not going to, you know, are in opposition to that. And so is that something that you, you know, you let them naturally make the connection? Do we. We start to highlight that if practitioners are listening on how best to potentially, you know, approach this.

Yeah, I think, you know, what I found with most of the time, people recognize it pretty quickly, but I think, you know, really simple questions guiding people to that kind of insight, I think is better than pointing it out. You know, so you kind of get this sort of like, so how close are you right now to what you're describing? How much does what you're doing right now match up with who you want to be? And then if there is that gap, you can kind of point out some of that discrepancy and start to think about, okay, like, what's one small step we can take today to start to reorient. Right. And turn a little bit more towards true north and. And close that gap. And I think, you know, the big part of this for me is helping people try to take kind of a small step in that direction, because I think, you know, it's. It's not often also too hard to identify how people got 180 degrees the other way. Right. And so a lot of the times that was driving different factors. Yeah. I think, you know, and for me, I sum it down and sort of boil it down to like, a lot of that's driven by fear, I think, is what pushes people away. And it's sort of like you're just responding to whatever happening in the moment and just kind of like, like trying to stay afloat. You're not necessarily trying to be your best or thrive and, you know, rightfully so at times, like, I think that that's an important response to acknowledge also. But obviously that sort of just staying afloat has brought you to this situation. And so now that we're here, how can we do that? And I think starting with a small step is really important because it's kind of like, you know, the athlete who's out of the game, if you will, a little bit mentally having a down game. And so, you know, if I think of baseball, for example, like, gets up and, you know, just swinging to hit a home run, it's like, just hit a single, dude. Like, that's it. You don't have to. You don't have to hit a home run every time you get up there. Like, just get on base and then we'll figure it out. This is kind of the same thing. Like, you don't have to go from 0 to 100 tomorrow and be this person that you've imagined right now, but there is something you can do tomorrow that's going to help you get closer. And so if we could start to pick some of that up, I think it's great.

I mean, it is amazing, isn't it, how just, just again, the power of language and using it in a succinct and direct way like that, like there's something you can do. What's the small step that you can do? And now all of a sudden, it's amazing how achievable it seems like I can do one small thing and then we get the. We get the ball rolling. And if we pivot a little bit here, Alex, to talk about mental health, because we know with, you know, young athletes, it's front and center. And we see it in professional basketball, in the NBA. You know, we've got younger and younger athletes coming in. Rates of struggling with whether it's lower mood or anxiety are on the rise. And, and actually across the population, I mean, we see now, unfortunately, with 12, 13 year olds experiencing rates of depression that have never been seen before. And so when we look at even, I mean, I don't want to jump right into the whole technology discussion, but maybe around your experience with teens or adolescents or young, whether it's college students or athletes, what are some of the patterns or the things that you're seeing when you're in with clients?

I think the big one is, you know, at least if I think about college students is probably where I have the most kind of direct, relevant experience and certainly have some with, you know, teens and adolescents, but less, less to draw on there. I think even a frac college freshman, you know, first year student coming in my experience is that they perceive themselves to be, and sometimes rightfully so, and sometimes I'm not sure, to be under just a tremendous amount of pressure to have gotten to where they are. And I think a lot of that has emerged as, you know, the drive toward higher education and completing a degree has started to play out in terms of social stratification and all these other sort of problematic things we have to figure out how we're going to address systematically. You know, people have been pushed to basically, like, foregoing experiences. And this happens in sports too, where, you know, parents get really excited about getting their kid a scholarship in swimming, and so you just like, stop playing.

All these other sports, hanging out on the weekends. No more, no more of that. We're gonna just Exactly.

Those things are, are important parts of a human's development. And so I think, you know, a lot of younger college students at this point have foregone a lot of those opportunities. And there's no more joining, you know, a fun club or playing three sports because now it's, you got to Prep for the SATs or you got to join this club that looks best on your college resume. And I can understand where that comes from, from a parent's perspective too, because you want your kid to be successful and, you know, happy and climb. And, you know, most parents, I think, want their kid to be better than they were. And. And so I think those things are all, you know, I can certainly understand that side of the motivational equation, but I think, you know, we don't really often pause to just think about like, even our own childh, you know, like, and I'm not that much older than today's, you know, college first year, but, you know, I didn't have that. Like, my parents weren't sort of like, you know, you just got a really hyper focused on this one thing because otherwise you're never going to make it. You know, it's kind of like, oh, you should go, you know, mess around a little bit and fail at some stuff and, like, go try a job that you hate and see what you learn from that, you know? And I think those experiences are really important. And so by the time they get to first year university, there's just so much pressure built up and so much. It's such a limited identity built around performance and this identity as a student and my grades and all these other things. And ultimately there's just so much they've missed out on. And I think there's. Technology is a piece of that. I think the concepts of helicopter parenting or Zamboni parenting, I think are big parts of that, but I think those really take away from people finding meaning in their life. And ultimately, I think people are not that motivated to get A's for 18 years, and then, like, once you don't get grades anymore, you got nothing, you know, I think we have to help people find something more meaningful than that.

Yeah, I mean, it's. There's so many different areas to kind of dive into there and with, you know, technology and just what we see now on. On Instagram or YouTube or what a young, young athlete, young collegiate student sees, or even an adult for that matter, of just when you look at the literature, what you see coming out of the literature around the content or the amount of usage, it seems like it's starting to change our perceptions of things in significant ways, or at least if we don't consciously adopt some strategies. And in some of the literature I've seen, young males seem to be more. More prone to this or potential exposed to this in terms of low mood than females. But can you tell us what you've seen in the research lately and what are some things that we should be thinking about or trying to support?

Yeah, so, I mean, what I've seen is it's actually pretty mixed. Right. There are some dimensions of the social experience that I think are good. So there is some evidence out there that suggests people who are a little bit more open and vulnerable actually do tend to find greater sense of community and belonging in social networks, and people tend to overall respond generally favorably. We do see sort of the horror stories of the online bullying that are sort of the outlier but terrible outcomes we don't want. And they get a lot of publicity and attention. And so they may not necessarily feel like outlier events. And so I want to be really mindful of that. But I think there is some stuff that suggests putting yourself out there in terms of social media in an authentic way can actually lead to real connection and A real sense of. Of meaning. And I think, you know, the real pivot point as I've started to understand it, is this distinction between kind of curated or authentic. And I think the more curated our presence is, actually the more distancing it feels. Right. And the more likes and comments and retweets start to really weigh on us. Because, you know, if you don't like the version of me that I've presenting to you purposely, like, you definitely won't like the real me, you know, the real me that. That doesn't have access to this ridicul boat that I took this picture on or the real me that, you know, doesn't.

It's not really my car.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I think that can be really disheartening. But it's also, I think people sometimes struggle to realize, like, that's also not a thing that people can connect with. Right. So the normal person can't connect with a Friday afternoon yacht party, but a lot of people can connect with Friday afternoon. I'm like, exhausted from the week. And so I think those authentic levels of communication on social, I think, can actually be good. But I think there's also, you know, you touched on kind of a time factor I think is really important too. Like, you know, the more that elements of social media become a part of how you see yourself, I think generally the more nervous I get. Right. So if you start to sort of live and breathe for the likes or the retweets or the comments and you're checking often, and that's really important to you, it's taking time away from other experiences you could be having or other parts of your life. I'm a little worried about that. Even if it is kind of this authentic presentation, because I think you're still missing out on things. Um, but if it's not interfering with that, I tend to be less concerned. And unfortunately, I think what I find is it's like, pretty obvious when it is interfering. Right? So, like, if you're out there, if you're a high school athlete and you find yourself wanting to check social media at halftime or when you're on the bench, like, that's kind of something to pay attention to, right? Like, this is a time to be here in the morning. Yeah, exactly. And so those are the things I think are important about that.

Yeah, I mean, it seems to circle back to the start of our conversation around that kind of appearing to be competent in this fixed mindset of just the likes and the appearance. And this is how I want people to see me versus that authentic, you know, and it's great to hear, you know, some of that research around that being able to, to help build some of these aspects of ourselves mentally that are going to be purposeful. Because again, with, with, with small children at home, you start to view the Internet of things in a whole different lens than you do when you're, you know, when you're younger. So it's, that's, that's encouraging. Well, listen, I could pick your brain all day here, Alex. But look, we kind of round things out now with, you know, when we think about the future of mental performance. I mean, I was recently at the Football Sport Medicine conference here in London in the UK and almost to a performance staff, you know, it was the six inches between the ears that was the next frontier in performance. So, you know, without giving away any trade secrets, you know, what are some of the areas that we should be looking at in terms of sports psychology? Mental performance?

I am really glad to hear how everyone believes is starting to come around to the six inches between finally. Yeah, we're getting there. So I think it's a time to be really thoughtful about how we invest in this area. So I do think there are technologies out there that are helpful. I also think there are technologies out there that we should probably double check the science on, because I think, think at every level of sport there's sort of this propensity to find the quickest, easiest, most accessible thing. And what we know from the research is that really like most of the variance in people's ability to change behavior has to do with a relationship. And so unless technology is building a relationship that's healthy and functional and guiding, I would be, at least I would pay attention to that. Right. I think there are technologies out there that can be helpful in terms of, of capturing and quantifying data and even some training and helping people learn new skills. I think that's highly relevant. But then I think there are also sort of extreme versions of technology that look cool or sound fancy that I would encourage people to deep dive on. And then the second go ahead just.

To cut you off. Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. Technology is infiltrating so many areas of everything we do. It's almost like it would be nice to have a domain where we're still going to just build relationships and talk. Now that that doesn't happen. But it just seems like to your point, we're looking for that quick fix, that technology that's going to bring in. And it's amazing how Whether it's nutrition talking to someone, whether it's even getting your hands on someone from a training aspect, like the human part of it is just still the real big rocks, if you will.

Yeah. I think there's such a drive to quantify everything that I think sort of really dovetails with technology. And obviously there's value in that. Like we've heard the Moneyball story and paradigm and so I think that's relevant. I think what's less talked about is McNamara's fallacy, which is. Which is the idea that, like, if you can't measure it, it somehow wouldn't be important. And I think, you know, that it's a good Wikipedia page read. But, you know, I think, I think there's good stuff in there to think about. And not everything is going to be quantified or measurable. And there are things like interaction effects that we're not going to get.

You can't measure.

Right.

Like, there's stuff we're just not smart enough to measure yet, isn't there?

Yes.

I mean, quite a few things.

Yeah. And there are maybe some things I don't want to, to measure. Like the measurement's not going to fully capture stuff. And that's where I think some data science stuff comes in. Right. Like all things have variance. You know, all data captures have variance. It's not an absolute number. So we have to be really thoughtful about how we use that data and I think that's highly relevant. But the place I would love to see folks go in positions that are making decisions around mental performance is. And mental health is really starting to think about this, like physical health and physical performance. So, you know, you don't have, if you're a college football staff, for example, you don't have one athletic trainer that you ask to work with 110 athletes and nobody else. Right. You have a staff of eight athletic trainers who all have different functional specialties. And you have massage therapists and you have physicians and you have a family physician and you have an orthopedic surgeon and you've got a dietitian or a nutritionist and you've got all these different folks that touch these athletes. Because what we've decided is, is physical health is really, really nuanced. And so there are all these things we have to pay attention to. And my argument is going to be mental health is as much or more nuanced than some elements of physical health. It's different because you don't necessarily need to have your hands on everyone like an athletic Trainer may, but I would love to see organizations move toward a place of thinking about greater levels of integration and specialization on the mental health and mental performance side and start to think at, like, building a team. And so you're not just going to hire one sports psychologist or one mental health consultant or one mental performance consultant. You're going to plan to hire four or five and all are going to be full time and they're all going to be able to tackle different areas. Eating disorders, substance use, gambling, things that we know are happening. But take specialized training and take time and commitment and different things, different skill sets. Right. And, and much like athletic training or even seeing your normal family physician, people just don't connect with everyone that they interact with. And so having some variety and variation I think is good. And I would love to see that kind of specialization, collaboration, integration, building out staffs, thinking about ways that folks like myself can be helpful across the organization. So I think the easy sell is, is everyone says the players really need this. And it's like, yeah, that's true, but so do you like everyone, right?

And so that's always my line with nutrition of like, all the coaches really need this and not in our staff and everyone in the upper organization, like, it's, it's everybody. We got a performance is top to bottom, isn't it?

I mean, yeah, exactly. Well, and, you know, I think for coaches, like, how you show up affects how your players show up. And so if you don't sleep well and you're angry when you show up at practice, like your player is going to perform differently and, and you know, or you're going to make different decisions, like if you just can't. This is an argument I always make, like, you can't convince me that if you sleep three hours a night, every night for a week, that when you get to Sunday's game day, you're ready to make your best decisions. I don't care who you are, you're.

Getting hypoglycemic in the fourth quarter and angry. You know what I mean?

That's right. That's right. And so I want people to start to think about this area in the same, you know, obviously I'd love to see everyone, you know, that's well trained and qualified and competent get hired and. But I'm not saying like, like teams need, you know, for an NBA team of 17 players, I'm not saying you need 17 sports psychologists, but I am saying even for a team of 17 players or 10 players or 20 players or 110 players, you might want a few folks, you know, two or three that have different areas that can help.

And how it interweaves again with all the other disciplines. Again, nutrition strongly of, like, behaviors and everything else, and how we can really start to. To weave these things together so well that it's hard to start to see where one starts and the other finishes. I think it's a really fascinating area because we start to really get those outcomes that we're looking for.

Right? Yeah, for sure. Well, and I just. I want people to be less afraid of this area. Right. I want people to, you know, I know it's different. It's not part of, you know, traditional sport culture, but I think if people really believe that the mind and body is connected, which I think most people do do, then I don't know how you can make an argument that you should only train one and not the other. And so I hope people find that.

And it's interesting when we talk about language, just to circle back that even the difference between calling it a sports psychologist and a mental performance coach, even if the qualifications, you know, assuming qualifications are all equal, you know, just that how we. We title things can even impact how people view a certain thing.

Right.

I mean, it's. I find that fascinating with athletes and people, but listen, Alex, I can pick your brain all day. I want to respect your time. Where's the best place for people to keep up? I really enjoy your Twitter feed. It's interesting hearing all your thoughts and whatnot. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?

I think Twitter is a great one. Lexauerbeckphd. Please feel free to challenge all of the thinking I put out there. And I'm hoping, yeah, I'm hoping to use it as a network and a community to help me get better too. And I think, you know, happy to connect on LinkedIn with folks. And I'd like to think I'm pretty accessible, so happy to have the conversation because I think we can all get a little better here.

Awesome. Well, I've definitely gotten a little bit better over this conversation, and hopefully everyone else has too, so, again, appreciate the time.

Alex, thanks so much for having me.