Ad Valorem Property Tax Consulting with Zachary Fleming of Ryan LLC - e5

Hey, Michael here. You will now hear some episodes of the Michael Girdley Show that we had branded differently, called Unusual Profits or some such like that. Same show, same person, just me interviewing people and producing content that could be helpful on your journey and mine as well. So with no further ado, here's the episode. Hey, Michael here. Sponsor for today's show is actually a product that I'm a part of called DM Bridge. And what DMBridge is, uh, is a service that we built, uh, to solve the problem that Twitter's direct messaging functionality is a total mess. So we built DMBridge to help you fix that. Um, a lot of the other solutions, uh, do things like requiring you to install a whole nother inbox. We didn't want another inbox, so we created DMBridge. And what it does is it takes all of your Twitter DMs and has them appear inside of your email inbox. So you can reply to them just like it's a regular email. You see them just like it's a regular email. You can search them later like it's one of your regular emails, all just by using DMBridge. So, uh, we're currently live with the product. Uh, would love for you to sign up and become a customer, uh, and check it out. So you can find that at dmbridge.app, uh, and go on there, put in your name, uh, and be either part of the beta or join us as part of the live use of the product. And again, check it out, dmbridge.app. All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of Industry Anonymous. I'm excited today because we have our first San Antonio guest, and I'm here today with, with Zach Fleming, who is going to spend some time talking to us about the glorious and exciting world of property tax protests. At the lower end property tax protest. Do I have that right, Zach?

Yeah, that's, that's our deal. Every— it's the job everybody aims for, or wait, no one aims for but might end up in.

Well, I mean, you and I have a mutual friend who's in this business, and I find it fascinating and so appealing and so cool. And believe it or not, there are other people out in the world that are going to find it super fascinating. And I know, hearing from the tone of your voice, it doesn't sound like you're like, yeah, this is the most exciting job ever, flying, like flying F-15s or whatever. But it is a, it is a super cool business based on what I know. And I'm really excited to learn some more about it.

It's interesting because I get to see and touch a lot of interesting deals that I wouldn't otherwise, but most of us end up in the business on accident.

Yeah, that's super cool. Well, maybe start there. So how did you get in personally into being in this business? I know you mentioned before we started recording, you had an interesting past of some other previous careers before you got into the property tax game.

Yeah, so I was a golf pro in a previous life and was the head pro at a municipal golf course in Austin and moved to a privately owned club outside of Austin. And that's where I got my first property tax bill. And I was an economics major in college. So I understood pretty quickly when I looked at the value they hung on that golf course and what the cash flow was, that there was absolutely no way that was right. Had some students that I taught golf to that were tax consultants and I called them and asked for help. And they said, I can't do it because of the timing. It's their busy season, but here's what I would do. And I went and got mine fixed the next year, saved the owners like $40,000. The next year, I had some buddies that ran other golf courses, got theirs fixed. And the next year, I was making as much money doing this in 3 or 4 weeks as I was working at the golf course and decided I needed to figure out which one was going to be my full-time job.

Huh, very cool. And so how, how long ago was this, just, just to give us some context?

13 years ago.

13 years ago, okay. So it's super interesting. And how long were you a golf pro?

15 years. So I'm old. Yeah. So my first day on this job was September 15th, 2008. Yeah, I know that because that's the day Lehman Brothers went under and I was unpacking my box for my new office, opened, turned on the internet and thought, you know, maybe I need to put my stuff back in this box. This doesn't look good. Of course, this can be a fairly countercyclical business, so it worked out.

Yeah. Well, I definitely want to dig into that, but before we go there, how does the business work? At its core, in Texas and many other states, you have this value-based taxation system on property. Is that right?

Correct. So we're advocates for taxpayers. We'll call it FITE, the Appraisal District. It's really working through a system with the appraisal district or appraisal districts. They're tasked with getting to market value by the state. They have to be within 5% of market value on this, on their annual, biannual ratio study in Texas. So they're supposed to get to a fee simple market value, which is somewhat different in commercial real estate than than what transactions may reflect, in that a transaction may have— that's a lease fee valuation. So— Right. A buyer of commercial real estate is going to purchase a revenue stream, and that revenue stream is based on the leases that are in place. And those leases that are in place could be based on a number of things. It could be a financial instrument for the tenant. It could be a bunch of tenant improvements that are baked into the lease rate. There could have been free rent at the front of the lease, so they're paying an above-market rent for that reason. So any of those things need to be sort of backed out of the rental rate, and you get a market rental rate. Then you get market expenses and market cap rate and market occupancy and calculate from an income basis what the fee simple value should be. Got it. And most of our work is in negotiating what the appropriate market rental rate and capitalization rate might be. Got it.

But at its core, so if I'm a 5-year-old, I want to understand the reason your business exists is the government— if I own a commercial building or a home in the state of Texas and in most other states with this system, the government has a process to put a value on it and then they send me a tax bill based on that value. And where you come in is you're an expert at arguing with the government to make sure that that number is fair and ideally fair in my favor, right, as a property owner?

As fair as we can make it. And yeah, so when the government goes to hang a value on your property every year and we do basically exclusively commercial property, residential may be coming next. Stay tuned. But, you know, each appraiser in Bexar County, for example, we're sitting here, right, in every county in the state. These appraisers have to put values on 4,000 or 5,000 properties. Every year. And it's a mass appraisal system, so they're working on very basic metrics, and then it's our job to come in and define where they missed their guesses and go— Essentially what I'm saying is they have 3 or 4 minutes per property to value your property for your taxation. So I fortunately get much more time than that to really dig in and analyze it and demonstrate where things might be different than with the assumptions they made, and then hopefully come to a conclusion that is as correct in the taxpayer's favor as we can make it.

Yeah, okay. Well, so just to put some magnitude to this, so say like here in Texas, if I own a $500,000 house, my property tax is gonna be $10,000 or $12,000 a year on that. I'm speaking because that's a ratio of my current house, so that's how I'm—

Right, so, you know, in Alamo Heights ISD, it's about 2.5, so it's 12.5, before you start backing out the homestead exemption and that sort of thing.

Okay.

So if you have a $20 million building, it's half a million dollars. Wow.

So you— your ability to cut that down from a half million dollars to $250,000, for example, that's— that starts to really affect the value of that building because of how much cap rates get multiplied that up. And because that just expense drops to the bottom line. So, you know, for those of you that don't know, cap rates are kind of how real estate businesses trade. So if you traded a 5-cap, that means ideally there's a 5% return on the value of that building each year. And so if $200,000 drops to the bottom, that becomes really important for the value.

In a 5-cap, that's a 20 multiple. So $200,000 is $4 million of value. Wow.

Wow. So that's why I think that creates a really cool opportunity for somebody in your position because you're You're really fighting for what, from a cash flow perspective, is a small amount of money for the landowner, but from a value of their property standpoint is enormous.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't get paid on the value, unfortunately. It's just on the taxes. Darn it.

Darn it. Darn it.

Tried. Everybody says no.

But so one of the things that I've seen is that it's much more appealing to be in recurring revenue businesses than into project-based businesses. And I think that— could you talk about that? So you guys have a book of business. I assume you have clients that have been with you for— since you started, I guess. Or is that— is that pretty common?

It is. You know, we're, we're pretty sticky. We get really integrated in our businesses. Our systems tie into our businesses' systems so that we can feed and pull the information directly without tying anybody in operations down and asking them to run reports for us. And it's a client service business, so communication and client service is really important. We represent $13 billion worth of real estate in Bexar County. So we have enough sort of critical mass that they can't certify the role without dealing with us. We're able to— and Texas is an annual REVAL state, so this is a process we do every year. There are jurisdictions where it's 2, 4, 8, 10 years. So that's a very different system than ours. So our revenue is somewhat recurring. It's actually really, it's steadier than you might know, or most people would believe. You would think that it's real peaks and valleys, but these jurisdictions are trying to capture 100% of market value every year. Discounting Rolls-Royce market value out at sometimes 108 or 110%, trying to guess where it's going to go. And we talked to them about where it was. So the business stays fairly steady. We've grown 8% to 10% a year for the last several years. Our growth was a lot stronger than that as we sort of grew the business here. But it's now my billing to an individual property changes a lot annually, but overall the market has been fairly steady.

Yeah. Well, maybe touch on that. So there's this thing called ad valorem, Right? Which is you get a portion of what you save for folks. So how— you're at a big firm, right? Which is a big multi-city firm, which maybe operates differently than other folks. How does the business model— how do you make— how does your firm make money or firms in general make money in this space?

So the vast majority of our engagements are success-based. So our fee is a portion of what we save you. And that portion varies depending on property type and value. So my contingent fee percentage is less on a $100 million office building than it would be on a $600,000 single-tenant retail site. Now, if you have 100 of those $600,000 single-tenant retail sites, our fees get a little more competitive, but it's almost exclusively success-based. So I only earn money if I save you money. Are instances where clients want to be able to budget more easily and we chart and select a flat fee and we can do that too. Or we can have a combination where there's a flat fee and that contingent fee is reduced.

Got it. But let's say I own a $10 million portfolio of self-storage things, right? Which by the way, I think you and I are friends on Twitter. So there's like, that's the cool thing now, self-storage, random rural self-storage in tier 3 markets, which super fun, whatever. So like if I have that $10 million thing and I'm the operator of that portfolio, what is the typical process somebody uses to identify a service provider like y'all and pick, pick a partner for Tax School? Is it done by RFP? Do they call you up and say, hey, you know, come sell us, we're putting our business out for bid? How does that typically go down?

So RFPs are typically pretty large portfolios, sort of one-offs or Or in-person meetings, well, back when that was a thing. Lots of Zoom meetings these days. And people want to know, one, what your experience is and what your success rate looks like and what comparable properties you might represent in that area. And they want to talk through what your market knowledge is, right? So they want to know, "This deal sold. They're currently assessed at 82% of the purchase price." What do you know about that? That it sold for, well, in excess of their current assessed value, but I feel like I'm currently valued at— Everybody thinks they're valued at above their market value when they're talking to the tax guy, right? Right. Almost every client I have, their target value for the appeal is zero, which is often hard to achieve for them. But they want to know that you're going to be responsive, that you know what you're doing, and that you can advocate for them appropriately. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we're based on our results. We're judged on our results. And if we don't save a client money, they might look elsewhere. But the vast majority of our new work comes from referrals from current clients.

Makes sense.

I mean, we've got 39 offices across the country, and we have, owners, you know, I've got owners in San Antonio that own things across the country and I've got partners in Chicago who send us work because their clients own stuff in San Antonio. But, you know, again, client service business. So you keep your clients happy and they send you more.

Yeah. So the reason that it makes sense to be— y'all are a multi-city, as you just described, firm. The reason it makes sense for you to be part of that is kind of the same thing that happens with big law, big multinational law firms, the Bracewells and folks like that, where it allows you all to scale for bigger clients, allows you to have, you know, better buying power, better market knowledge, and then really this cross-pollination thing. Is that really the reason that the big firms have emerged like y'all? Yeah.

So, you know, our wheelhouse is portfolio owners, people who have stuff all over the country, and institutional investors. We obviously have the advantage of having local market experts across the country. So I can, if you called me and said, "Hey, Zach, I'm looking at a property in North Carolina. What do you know about it?" I would tell you a little bit, but I have a partner that works North Carolina exclusively and they know everything about it. So let's get you on the phone. So it's sort of a centralized point of contact to be able to go get into a network of experts across the country. And You know, our size gives us systems and access to data that I, you know, I wouldn't have if I was a small San Antonio exclusive shop.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, well, that makes sense. And so then there's got to be, there's got to be portions of the market that because there's properties that are all the way down to the $25,000 valued POS home on the wrong side of town to the, to the, well, the building you're sitting in right now, which I think is one of the most expensive buildings in town from a valuation standpoint. Well, maybe you're representing it, it's a low valuation, but it's It's huge. We do.

It's not low enough, but it's pretty low.

You'll get there. You'll get there. So, but I gotta imagine there's some of those businesses and you talk about the appeal of the portfolio stuff. Like I look at the other end of the spectrum, and I see some of the folks that are doing what y'all do to protest these values and work and are doing it for single-family homes and these $50,000 valued homes. That just seems like a really hard business to to do well.

Yeah, it's a grind. You know, when I started, I did, I took anything I could get, right? And, you know, which is a great way to build experience. And we, you know, we obviously have to pick our, pick our clients to some extent. I can't spend any time about, you know, working up a value on a $50,000 house, because if I got it cut to $10,000, I still haven't saved you enough money to justify my time.

Yeah.

Even if you had 1,000 of those, there's just nothing there for me, right? Now, there's a model for residential appeals that, again, stay tuned, but I think it's a self-service model, sort of a TurboTax version of property tax.

Well, I've seen people trying that here and there. There's a group up in Fort Worth that I don't think is y'all, but is like, you come in, you put your, —like, and this is what I want as somebody who protests my own house. By the way, my protest this year was great. All I did was just email the guy and say, "I think it's too high and I'm going to protest it." And he said, "Well, how about this other figure?" And it was great. Like, I was, "Okay, fine, I'll take it." But I think the huge advantage you guys have is that database and the market knowledge to where you're coming in and being like, "Okay, here are these 6 comps that you have to look at, Mr. Appraiser, and here's the case we're going to make in front of the review board because it—" if you don't agree, it goes to this review board of citizens. Like, if I had that, I think I could do almost as good of a job, you know, as what you guys do. And I don't mean it insultingly, but for a simple house, like, it's pretty easy if I'm like, yeah, these 3 other houses are really nice. And they're, they sold for this per square foot.

For houses, I couldn't agree more. And you know your house better than I'll ever know your house. Yeah, right. And you know, any issues that it might have, and you can upload, you will be able to upload pictures and, and select the comparable properties and And I absolutely think that that's the right way to do it. And by the way, it's the right way to do it because you can pay me online and I don't have to go see what your new value is going to be and send you an invoice. Right. So and you'll get to see every year and be sure that you're not valued at $700,000 and your neighbor with the same house is valued at $400,000. Yeah. So it'll give you— give the taxpayer some peace of mind too, which is— and it's going to make the appraisal district's jobs easy because they've got tens of thousands of homeowners that run through there every year. And if you've ever been to an appraisal district and seen homeowners get angry about the value of their home. These poor people that are government employees sitting there look like, "Man, what do you want me to tell you? Your neighbor's house sold for half a million bucks. So yours is the same. So it's half a million dollars." "Yeah." "But it was only $470,000 last year." "Correct. How am I supposed to help you?" They have a really tough job. And they get painted in sort of a They're the tax man, so they get painted in a bad light sometimes. They're not bad people. They just have a hard job.

So does the SAFE system exist in some variation in all the states, or is it kind of like the liquor laws, every state in the US is different?

So it's slightly different, but really similar across the country. Different value cycles. Most valuation dates are as of January 1st, although that varies some across the country. But the system's generally the same. They are supposed to get as close to market value as they can for the market value part of it. Now, in California, your value can only go up 2% a year, more or less, right? Arizona, it's 5%. Oregon, it's 3%. So there are states with caps that are very taxpayer-friendly for the most part, right? Theoretically. The problem is I have a client who purchased some retail on Rodeo Drive, And they paid an astronomical amount for the property on a per-foot basis. I mean, it's a crazy number. Their neighbor has been owned by a company in Southern California for 40 years. So their value was like $100 a foot or $150 a foot 40 years ago, and it's gone up 2% a year for 40 years. My client purchases a property for a multiple of that. right? And they pay tax on that number. So their tenant pays that tax. So they're passing through like $25 a foot in tax where the neighbor passes through $4 a foot in tax. So obviously the rent has to adjust because the tenant doesn't care. They see an all-in number. So it's pretty problematic for owners of real estate, for buyers of real estate when their competitors have such an advantage.

That's one of the things that strikes me as very healthy about the Texas system in which it's kind of high. You have a penalty just to sit there and have a bunch of money stuck in a piece of real estate that's appreciating, which is you got to come up with cash to pay property taxes. I know with the land I own here and there, I'm like, "Man, that sucks. I can't believe I just had to pay $8,000 for property taxes. Maybe I should sell this bad boy and move on to the next thing." If you're not an income-generating property, I kind of felt like, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, I kind of felt like it's one of the things that Texas has going for it, which is there's a disincentive to just do hold forever type stuff, right? There's more liquidity in the market because of a fairer system around valuations, but—

It incentivizes property to be used at highest and best use, right? So people tend to not sit on property, which is good. You know, certainly if someone was sitting on 5 acres downtown and they weren't incentivized to make the best use out of it, We'd have a hole in downtown where maybe somebody could come build some useful product, office, multifamily, whatever it might be. And then the community benefits from that.

So yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, super interesting. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. One of the things that I'm curious about is a lot of the folks that I meet that are in your industry are not spring chickens. Curious your thoughts around, well, is that accurate? And B, how are you thinking about younger folks coming into this industry? Like, does it make sense to come in and be a junior petunia at a big firm like, like yours? Does it make sense to go start your own book of business and then try to sell it to a big firm and come in as a more senior person? Like, how are you kind of seeing trends happening with, with the industry and the level of maturity of people in it?

So we grow most of our talent. We try to hire strategically. The fact is that if somebody has had a successful career in our business, we are an exit strategy, but the vast majority of new talent in our business starts at a firm like ours or similar and starts to understand the business. There's not a college degree in property tax consulting. Right. So we do hire out of a lot of real estate and finance schools, We have a really strong intern program, and that's how we try to grow our talent. But you're right, there's a lot of gray hair in this industry. That's interesting. Those that are fortunate enough to have hair. Not me.

Nor do I. This is maybe a question that you don't want to answer, but what are the market multiples where the books of businesses trade? Do you guys trade as multiples of EBITDA? Do you trade as multiples of revenue? Do you trade on some rule of thumb around The valuation of the property under contract?

It's generally a revenue multiple, and it's 1.5 to 2.5.

1.5 to 2.5, yeah.

Because it's such a relationship business that if we're buying a book of business, usually we have an earnout period because we have to transfer that book and hopefully keep as much of it as we can. Our profit margins are decent, but every year's a new engagement. So every year's an opportunity for somebody to come talk our clients out of using us and into using them. So we, I mentioned earlier, we're pretty successful at keeping our book of business. And there's some momentum and it's a pain to change for some people, especially big portfolios, but there's plenty of people out there asking them. So buying a business is difficult in our industry because we're buying relationships. Those aren't easy to transfer.

Yeah, but you did say it was pretty sticky. Do you guys track classical numbers like portfolio-wide churn and per account, per relationship owner churn and stuff like that? Those are firm-wide KPIs and stuff like that, I assume?

We do. Because of who we are in the business and our footprint and our target client, Churn's fairly low for us because there's not many firms that can handle portfolios across the country. There's less than a handful. So the options are a little more limited for that. Now, for local clients, that churn's probably, for a lot of folks, it's higher than the national clients. But we get really integrated and every engagement is a partnership for us, right? So we succeed when they succeed. And we only succeed if the client's happy. Yep. So the hardest year to appeal somebody's value is often the first year. Sometimes it's the easiest depending on who handled it previously. But, you know, I've got to learn a whole new portfolio, a whole new property set, and getting a new client's expensive. So we, we certainly do all we can to keep them. Yeah.

Two more things come to mind, then, then would love to, love to close with you. But number one, I think you've probably seen some stuff in your time of people doing some crazy things to get their valuation down. Does anything come to mind of some stuff you've seen that you'd be happy to share anonymously? So yeah, we had—

so the agricultural exemption for land, people get pretty creative with that, right? Okay.

So that's where if you have in Texas, if you have vacant land and you put some 10, a certain number of cows per acre or goats per acre or bees, like you can, you can get your property taxes way reduced to almost a negligible amount.

Correct. So depending on the, the use value of 1% of the market value in some instances, right? So you might pay $300 instead of, you know, $30,000. And bees is a great example because you only have to have a couple of acres for bees. So I know people who have bees on their 2.5-acre— they— their 2.5-acre lot where their home resides and a suburban location. And I have, have a client who is a developer and has a golf course community in Central Florida, and they have one pecan tree on every lot, and therefore they have been granted an agricultural exemption for every undeveloped lot in their, their neighborhood, which is— so they're paying like $2 a lot instead of $2,000 a lot in taxes. So it's creative. But here's the thing, the assessor agreed. Yeah. So, you know, there are assessors who, who are not going to agree. But if your assessor agrees to it, they're going to agree to it for your neighbor. So you might as well let them agree to it for you.

Super fascinating. Cool. And then, you know, as I've gotten to know you here a little bit, I do think I'm starting to see a pattern amongst the folks that are in this industry. It's really an interesting combination of matter of fact exactness, but also willingness to just be direct with people. There's just a directness, and maybe that's a small sample size, but I'm curious how you think about the personalities of the types of people that do well in your industry versus the ones that doesn't end up working out for them.

I have to communicate effectively with clients and appraisers, districts, and assessment review boards. To do that, I have to be pretty frank, and I have to be able to tell you exactly what my opinion is or what the taxpayer's opinion is and why it's that. And if I'm not forthright, my credibility goes out the window, and my credibility is literally all I have, Michael. If I don't have that, I can't get anything done. So, which is another hard part of transitioning clients when you make an acquisition is I have to assume someone else's credibility.

Right. Well, I guess it does help that they typically, they stay on for a while and you have earnouts and non-competes and all that kind of stuff. But also, they're probably How much does the client's understanding— okay, well, my relationship with Jim is— Jim's 70 now, so it all makes sense and we'll find my business a good, a good new safe home.

And Jim trusts this person and Jim's telling me this is a good person. I trust Jim because Jim's done my work for 30 years and I know Jim can't do this forever. So yeah, and that's a big part. But you have to, you have to earn that trust regardless of what Jim says. You have to demonstrate your value, right?

Because it's a year at a time. It's, it's, it's— you're just in the pole position every year for the renewal. That's right. Yes. Super interesting. What, if anything, when you talk to people about your business surprises them the most? Are there things that you're just like, people, people don't understand this, this thing about, about the tax consulting business?

Well, the first thing is that it's a business, right? You know, people— back when I was a golf pro, People would ask me what I did and I'd tell them, and that was like, I knew what the next hour was gonna be, right? Can you check my grip? Now I tell people what I do and they're like, huh, okay. So how about that weather? They don't know what it is, so the topic moves on, which in some cases is great. People immediately think that I work for the government usually, right? Oh, you're the guy that made my taxes go up. No, I'm the guy that can make them go down. Most people, unless they're in the commercial real estate business, aren't terribly familiar with advocates and then assume that I just go down and do a tap dance and make some magic happen and their value goes down. And it's really an evaluation process and in Texas, assessment comparison process in many instances. And that there's a lot to it and you have to know how to do it properly to be able to get somebody to buy into it and agree to move that value.

But it seems like a great business for somebody to be in as a young person or even mid-career, where if you're willing to do the work, you like the customer service angle of it, you can see the helping part of it, and you're willing to grind it out year after year, it seems like a great way to make a really nice living for folks. It certainly can be.

I've been lucky And that I had some great mentors in this business and I've been able to mentor some people who have really come along, a couple of whom are partners in our firm now, and some that were coming right out of college and were really green and are now the experts in the business and their property type and their jurisdiction. And that's great to see, and they've been really successful and they have really bright careers and futures ahead of them, which is rewarding for me.

Yeah, super cool. Well, I can tell you, knowing who I am and what I'm good at and what I'm bad at, I would be terrible at your job.

So I'm glad you're good at it. Well, I'm glad I found something I'm good at. Well, I mean, look at you.

I can see the view behind you. It's fantastic. So all pretty cool. All I got is a guest bedroom and a cat being an idiot in my view.

Well, that's my view about 3 days a week.

Super cool. Super cool. Well, hey, this is super fascinating. I know you probably felt like you were talking your book and explaining stuff about it, but I didn't really understand some aspects of how these things trade and how precarious the business is. It's just really fascinating. I thought it was much more sustainable and durable than that, but it's an inertia-based renewal much more than pressure. That's it, exactly. Yeah. Really fascinating. Well, good. And it's great to meet you. We office 50 feet away from each other, though it's across the sky. And I'm really grateful. How can people support you? I know you're on Twitter. I'll tag you on Twitter when we publish this. But what other things could be supportive, get the word about Ryan or anything like that?

Yeah. So, Ryan.com is our website. I'm in San Antonio, but I've got somebody in every market in the US and Canada. And if they have an issue, if they think they're being overtaxed, we're here to help. And they don't have to live 4 blocks from me like I do. They can live anywhere they choose. Super good.

Well, thanks, Zach. I really appreciate it. I think people are going to be really interested in this. I know you're surprised, but there are tons of nerds like me that are just like, "Oh my God, do you know how property tax consulting works?" Like, it's amazing.

I'm always happy to meet another nerd. Fellow nerds need to stick together, right?

Sweet. All right. Well, thanks again. We'll talk to you soon.