Rohun Jauhar, Co-founder of JT Capital - From W-2 into Real Estate - The Michael Girdley Show Episode 45

Hey, Michael here. Welcome to another episode of the Girdley Show. Uh, today I spent an hour talking with my buddy Rohan Jha, uh, who is out of Austin and, uh, like many of our guests, is in the real estate private equity business. Uh, I've been really fascinated by how that business works, uh, since getting exposed to it a few years ago. So we talked about that, talked about where he specializes, which is apartments in Florida and Texas, and then we went into a bunch of life and self-help kind of stuff that, um, I obviously floats my boat to talk about. So, um, talked about, uh, hiring virtual assistants. Uh, I don't have one. I need one. Uh, talked about how to make the leap from having a day job to becoming an entrepreneur. And then lastly, talked about how he had a podcast, uh, and had 3 episodes, uh, with all-star guests and then stopped. Uh, so super interesting stuff. A lot of good life lessons from Roe. Um, really thoughtful guy. And, uh, I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy talking to him and learning from him. So. Uh, we'll get into it, but first, a quick word from our sponsor for today's episode. Hey, Michael here. Uh, sponsor for today's show is actually, uh, a product that I'm a part of called DMBridge. And what DMBridge is, uh, is a service that we built, uh, to solve the problem that Twitter's direct messaging functionality is a total mess. So we built DMBridge to help you fix that. A lot of the other solutions, uh, do things like requiring you to install a whole nother inbox. We didn't want another inbox, so we created DMBridge. And What it does is it takes all of your Twitter DMs and has them appear inside of your email inbox. So you can reply to them just like it's a regular email. You see 'em just like it's a regular email. You can search them later like it's one of your regular emails, all just by using DMBridge. So we're currently live with the product. Would love for you to sign up and become a customer and check it out. So you can find that at dmbridge.app and go on there, put in your name, and be either part of the beta or join us as part of the live use of the product. And again, check it out, dmbridge.app. Ro, I'm so excited to visit with you. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Yeah, it's gonna be awesome. Well, you're from the hinterlands up in Austin, so, you know, it's pretty far away. So hopefully the time difference doesn't affect our ability to talk, you know, that much.

Yeah, the commonality is we're both in 100, you know, 10-degree weather right now.

Ah, I turned to my wife the other day, and for those of you who live in normal places, In South Texas, we've been in a massive heat wave here in the beginning of June and it's like 104 every day. And I'm acclimated really to hot weather, but like the number of times like I've been like, "Ugh, I'm not going outside." Like it's happening a lot. So I turned to my wife and I was like, "Why do we live here? This is terrible." So anyway, hopefully you're surviving it. Cool. So, you know, I feel like I know you really well. We're in the same kind of Twitter creator group. You know, we have a Signal chat where we do that and look at each other's stuff before we put it out. But that's been a ton of fun. And I, and I also know you pretty well from Twitter, and then I ran into you at Capital Camp and we got a chance to talk there. But my audience may not know you that well, so I'd love to give you a chance to introduce yourself and what you do.

Yeah, definitely. So I run a real estate private equity firm called JT Capital. Really what we do is buy, you know, 100 to 400-unit apartment complexes in Florida, in Texas. Most of our portfolio over the past 24 months has been purchasing in Florida, you know, stuff that was built, you know, anywhere from like the 1990s, early 2000s, 2010 vintage, that kind of stuff. We go in, we renovate interiors, we fix up deferred maintenance. We have a partnership with one of the largest multifamily property managers in the nation. And then we just execute the business plan on these deals, you know, gradually raise rents, deliver good returns to investors. So So that's pretty much what I focus on these days is running our real estate private equity firm. Before that, I had spent some time working in tech. Before that, I had worked at GE in finance strategy operations type roles. Originally, I'm from Michigan, born and raised there, now living in beautiful Austin, Texas.

Yeah, beautiful, hot Austin, Texas. So you talked about Y'all's model is, you know, Sunbelt-centric, you know, Texas and Florida, and then mostly apartments and residential. Is that the focus?

Yeah, it's all multifamily apartment complexes that are, you know, minimum 100 units, maximum 400 units. Really stuff that is like, you know, relatively good on a risk-adjusted scale, right? Like residents that have higher-paying blue-collar jobs or maybe entry-level white-collar jobs, which has been, you know, a good strategy, especially during 2020 when COVID hit, and then a little bit into 2021. Because, you know, some people in certain industries were hit much harder, and it made it tough for, you know, rental payments and things like that. So we're very niche-focused.

Yeah, dig it. And so why Why do multifamily residential? Like what? You know, I know there's other folks that do a lot of light industrial. There's people who do, I'm sure, heavy industrial. And then there's people I'm sure that are doing oddball stuff like, you know, amusement parks and stuff like that. But why, why that niche? Why does it fit you? And I assume the T is a business partner. Is that, is that who the other half of the JT is?

Yeah, exactly. So I have two business partners, Supin and Pooja. They're brother and sister and their last name is Teladi, hence the JT Capital. You know, when we first started and when I first started, it was kind of a mistake of getting into multifamily. So I was working at Facebook at the time, you know, through a variety of things that happened. I was just like, hey, I want to go start my own thing and do my own thing. So looked at going down a variety of paths. Ultimately, though, I landed on real estate. My initial idea was, hey, I'm going to go buy up single-family houses in college towns. I know college will be around for, you know, probably at least a decade still. The parents are typically cosigners on the leases. You know, they rent it out for 12 months, but they only live in there for 9 months. So this looks like a really good, good opportunity. I didn't know anybody in real estate, and so I brought this idea to one of my uncles who I didn't know what he did. I just knew he was in real estate and he was like, you know, don't do this. I started with single-family houses and you make like $200 on each one. So it's just not worth it. Like you have to buy so many for this to really make sense for you at scale. He's like, but you know what you should look into is multifamily. And so what I did was, you know, started looking at larger-scale multifamily. I did a lot of just like downloading deals from brokers' websites and underwriting deals to kind of get like practice reps in and you know, learn how do you underwrite a deal. I shared that with him. I did like 100 deals in 30 days, shared that work with him. And I was like, I know you spend a lot of your time doing this. I could just do this for you. Why don't I do like an apprenticeship, you know, under you? And he allowed me to do that. So that's kind of how I got into multifamily, just, you know, on his suggestion. As I went into it then and started, you know, looking at other asset classes, multifamily just stood out as something that had the best kind of risk-adjusted returns, right? People need a place to live. Based on the demographics of the country, you know, roughly 50 to 60% need to live in apartments or prefer to live in apartments. And that's just how, you know, the trends have been working. Zoning in on, you know, the specific markets that we hit— good population growth, good job growth, good income growth, warm temperate climates, low to no state income tax. Um, and so that's kind of like, you know, why we continue to focus on it. Quite frankly, like, we've just stayed late, stayed laser focused and not gotten distracted by other asset classes. It's been super easy to, you know, take a look at some others and say, hey, maybe we should go do that thing. But our playbook works really well in the markets that we're in and the asset classes that we focus on. And for now, we just feel like, you know, staying laser focused, um, staying within that circle of competence and allowing time and patience and good execution to kind of compound over time puts us and our firm in the best position.

Yeah, totally dig it. Well, it's interesting, like the way you described the transition from having a W-2 job and working in corporate America, like, like the first thing you started to do was like actually do the work and hustle. And it's interesting to me because I talk to so many young people who are like, I want to be a venture capitalist, or I want to be, you know, in private equity, or I want to be, you know, a programmer, but they're not actually willing to step forth and hustle. Like they're looking for somebody to give them like the opportunity instead of going out and demonstrating capability there. So, I mean, how long ago was this that you, you just made this transition? You said, okay, I'm, I'm not gonna work a W-2 job anymore. Like, like how long ago was that? And why did you just know to have hustle? Like you need to go put in the work first?

Yeah. Um, probably about like 7 to maybe 7.5 years ago, I made the decision that I need to go do something else because, you know, working for someone else just isn't for me and, you know, not really the direction that I wanted to take with my life. And so that's when I kind of made the decision. You know, I tried everything. I like looked at going and becoming an engineer by going to Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp. I thought maybe I'll be a product manager. I, I worked in a Domino's. I was like, oh, maybe I could be a franchisee. And, you know, I, lasted like one day in the Domino's and I was like, I can't do this. And then, you know, I just landed on real estate. So probably 7 years ago, the reason that I went about it the way I did is because, you know, it's really scary at the time when you're getting paid every 2 weeks, you have a good paying job, you have lifestyle expenses and everything like that, that it's like, hey, I can't just go off on myself and do this thing. When my whole life up to this point has been getting paid every 2 weeks. So it's a very scary transition. And so I said, I need to put in this work to kind of learn if this is something I want to do, if I can go get taught from someone, you know, that knows a lot more than me and then kind of just gradually make this transition where I feel confident that, you know, I can go do this myself. I think this apprenticeship model is super underrated and Um, it's a really good way for people to be able to, um, you know, kind of go do something without needing to ask permission.

Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, I do this model where I hire associates and like hopefully apprentice them into becoming entrepreneurs and investors and founders, right? And it's, it's a no strings attached thing, but it's interesting how many people I run into who are unwilling to do any sacrifice like whatsoever. Right? It's like, no, I wanna be paid above market. I want security of a W-2 job. I want you to tell me what my outcome's gonna be. I don't wanna do any prep work, and I may not even wanna work that hard during the interview. It's just, it's really fascinating the level of entitlement that a lot of people have. Um, and it becomes a big selecting factor for me where it's just like, oh, okay, well, like if you're super entitled, then we're probably not gonna be great. Cause I don't feel like I'm super entitled. So it's, it's inspiring to hear you kind of take a different attitude towards it and be willing to put in the work.

Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's a self-selecting thing, right? Like, you know, generally speaking, those types of people are not, uh, even if someone gives them a shot, they're not going to have the success that somebody else will have that's willing to put in the work, that's, you know, willing to kind of take certain risks and, um, you know, sacrifice whatever it is now for a longer-term type of gain. Um, and that's just kind of what you have to do if you want to be successful at, you know, the level that probably, um, and entrepreneur wants to be.

Yeah, well, that's why they want to do it. They want to have freedom and make money and all that kind of stuff and be cool. I don't know, it's not that cool. Um, so one thing I wanted to ask you about, um, you know, you talked about classical multifamilies where you guys play, but like I'm seeing more and more folks subscale, go raise funds and stuff like that to do single-family home purchase, you know, at scale. And it's not You know, it's— they're not mobile homes. They're like legit single-family homes built to rent and that sort of thing. Like, what is going on with that trend? Like, how should I think about it? Is that smart? It sounds like it's— I don't know, it just smells funny to me. So anyway, how do you think about that?

Yeah. Yeah. Look, I think the build for rent trend is real, right? Like, I've seen a lot of these funds pop up. I've seen a lot of these deals pop up. The economics are fairly similar to multifamily in terms of, you know, what these are trading at. At least in today's market. You know, it is like a unique thing that we're not sure, like, if this will actually play out and this is how things will work in the future where people can't afford houses, but they want houses. And so therefore they just have to rent these houses. You know, it's happening right now at scale. I kind of understand, you know, why this would be happening because now, as I'm, you know, more so in the millennial generation, people are going into that family formation age where it's, it's been delayed relative to Gen X or the boomer generation, but now it's really coming, coming to fruition. And because of that, you know, you go from like, okay, I don't want to live in a 1,200-square-foot apartment anymore. Now I actually do want to live in a larger house with a backyard and those kinds of things. But just given, you know, over like generally millennials' finances, they're not in a position to be able to own a house. Even 2 years ago, if you looked at— let's say you could find a $300,000 house 2 years ago, right? A mortgage payment on that, if you maybe put 3.5% down, which is, you know, the lowest you could put with an FHA, would be maybe $1,500 a month. Now, with where mortgage rates are at today, and, you know, Q2 2022, you know, you're paying $2,000 to $2,200 for that same house. Not to mention you probably can't even find that house anymore because the home prices are up, you know, double digits over the past couple of years. And so I think it is a trend that's out there. I know that people, you know, that are operating these are doing well because there's been significant rent growth. And I know that the actual consumer is demanding this because they can't afford houses. They want to rent. That they have to rent, but they also want a house, and this is kind of the best option there. I don't think it's a bad strategy at all. I just think, you know, you have to think about what is your cost basis going to be as you get into these things, because the price on a lot of— I haven't seen one where the price made sense to me, I'll put it that way.

Uh, oh, where the price— I'm not following you. So the price to sell the home, or what their return on investment was going to be?

Price from a, uh, the price from a real estate investor standpoint, right? Like if I see a 200-unit community of this, you know, the cap rates that it's selling at are typically going to make you negatively leveraged in today's environment. And so if I'm trying to buy that 200-unit community and, you know, rent out these homes to people, the pricing typically just doesn't make sense because the cost basis is so high.

Yeah.

Okay.

Dig it. Yeah, it's interesting. I have a friend that's in real estate private equity and they do ground-up development. And I asked, you know, what percentage of y'all's deals don't underwrite given current rental rates and the interest rate hike that we just went through? And this person said a significant amount, like a third of them. So it's like, yeah, it only works if, if, if rental rates keep going up. And I wonder how many of these single-family home ones are very much like the same way unless rents keep going up 20%. you know, per year, which evidently is happening in Austin because everybody in Austin tweets about how they can't afford their rent anymore and then evidently is moving to San Antonio. Um, and then they discover San Antonio is just as hot as Austin. Uh, but anyway, uh, so yeah, it'll be interesting to see how all that shakes out because it just, it just smells unsustainable. So smells not as bad as '08, but it smells unsustainable in that kind of same vein where it's like, well, wait, how, how is this going to work? How do these deals underwrite?

Yeah, no, 100%. Like the things that start— that you start seeing where you're like, okay, this market's getting a little bit risky is when people are underwriting, you know, high rent growth. And then two, they're going negatively leveraged, leveraged into these deals. At some point, that rent growth is probably going to normalize. And if you're negatively leveraged, you're going to be in a really tough position. It's a little different than '08. I think the underwriting standards are much more stringent. I think the collateralizing of these loans, from what I've seen, has been, you know, the risk has been kind of like consistent in whatever tranche that's being sold. So I think there's a little bit of that. It does seem like cap rates are going to expand a little bit, right, to kind of go in line with increased interest rate increases. But I don't think that there's like significant um, you know, crushing of the real estate market, which I think some people are kind of, um, like, think might happen, or they're just like waiting for it to happen so they can finally go buy something.

Well, the, the, the social media narrative is the world is ending, and then when I'm driving around the real world and dealing with people who are not tweeting, it's very much consistent with a soft landing. Like, that's what I'm seeing from the belt tightening at this point, where it's just like, well, you know, things used to be terrible, we couldn't hire anybody, and now they want work. It's like, oh, okay, you mean like it's always been? And so we'll see. It'll be curious what kind of the macro numbers come out of the jobs reports and stuff like that going forward. So, um, so one thing I wanted to talk to you about, like, more and more people in real estate, private equity, venture capital even, are getting on social media and sort of use that as a platform to raise funds, like build businesses around that. And it's I think that's good. Like, I think that's— it democratizes it. That's a really good thing. What worries me about it is you're starting to see hints of more and more people come through and be like frauds. Like, frauds are scammers, and, and I distinguish those two things. So frauds is somebody just doing like a Ponzi scheme, Bernie Madoff-style stuff, and then the scammers is people I would describe as taking advantage of unknowledgeable or unsophisticated limited partners or investors. So, you know, maybe I'd really be interested in your take on those two things one at a time. Like number one, like first question, like how do you, how would you recommend that somebody is investing in a real estate deal or a limited partner in a real estate deal? Like how do you vet a new manager that maybe you've just seen from Twitter or maybe you've just read about in the paper and you contacted? Like what, what is, what is the best way to go about that?

Yeah, totally. Yeah, great question. I think the framing of your question is right as well. Like in these bull markets where people are making money hand over fist, like over the past decade and, you know, now with social media and being able to kind of just put whatever you want out there and it can be unverified bullshit.

There's some bullshit on Twitter. I don't know if you're aware of this.

Yeah, just a little bit.

A little bit.

And so it certainly happens. And those two groups of people people, I just categorize them into one, right? If you're a fraud or a scammer, like, you're just a fraudster to me. Um, there's— I think I put out kind of like a due diligence framework on Twitter, um, but really the way that I think about it is, and kind of how I even approach it from the LP side, is this: when I'm first meeting with someone or I've read about them and their stuff on Twitter or, you know, wherever, um, the first thing you got to do is just Google search them and start learning about them a little bit, right? Like, you know, you could just Google the person's name and then say lawsuit after or like legal proceeding or something, you know, like if something pops up and, you know, you should go read it because people get sued, like, you know, not for something they did, but just go read it and see what happened. And you'll probably, you know, be able to find if something's bad about that person or something fishy after that. You know, when you're having the conversation with the person, you know, if I was— let's say I was early in my career and I was having a conversation with someone to try to, like, understand you know, should I be investing with this person? You know, if I had money when I was younger, I probably wouldn't be able to tease out, you know, does this person have integrity, all of those kinds of things. But now at this point, after like working with so many people, investing with so many people, those kinds of things, there's just— there's kind of like a gut feeling that you have when you're talking to someone, right? So, you know, one piece of it is like, what sales and influence tactics is this person using on me, right? Are they doing like a name association or name dropping? Right. I'm not saying like something like that. It says like this person is a fraudster, but it's one thing to know that like, okay, this person is using this kind of like sales tactic on me. You know, I should go verify like, does this person actually invest with this person or do they know each other? You know, things like that. You know, more tactical things is asking for track records, right? Like, hey, can you send me the complete and thorough list of deals that you've done? Right? Certain questions you ask, you know, really pay attention to how someone answers those questions. So for example, like when I ask— this happens to me even— like people will ask questions and then they— if you say like a couple of words that just align with what that person believes to be a good answer, they kind of just tune out. And they're like, okay, like this person answered that question, right? But I would dig in and be like, not dig in. I would really pay attention to the exact words that this person is using and not trying to like misrepresent what they're saying by giving certain caveats or things like that. For example, like, let's use an example. So for example, if I said, hey, can you give me a list of your deals and, you know, talk to me about the worst one? Someone may say like, yeah, you know, our worst deal was you know, this one we got like a 5% return or whatever. Didn't really, you know, think what we would hit for investors. You know, in this group, let's say they said that. It's like, okay, why did you say that? Like, did you have another group before this that you were working with? And like, there was other deals in there. So just those little things that I've seen over time that people kind of, you know, they're not lying, but they're really caveat their answer in specific ways. If people do that and you have to like dig in and dig in and dig in, they're probably trying to hide something. It's probably not somebody that I want to invest with. You know, just one more point, like the fraudster thing, you know, Bernie— Bernie Madoff's investors like probably should have questioned at some point, how are we getting such great returns every single year? Like something has to be like, is this guy that smart that like he never has a down year? Even Berkshire has down years. So like, what's going on here? Um, at some point, like, maybe people are just like, look, I'm getting great returns, I don't want to question this. But like, you know, if that's the case, like, maybe something's wrong here. Um, so that's, you know, I know that's not the most structured— I have a tweet on it— but like, those are some of the tells and things that I look for.

Yeah, it is interesting to me how how little diligence a lot of people are doing to put significant amounts of money with money managers. Um, you know, and I, I syndicated a deal last year which was a business, you know, a private equity deal. Um, and there's people that I was like, well, you sure you don't want to call some references? You know, maybe do a criminal background check on us? And no, they're like, you're fine. I'm like, well, that's true. You know, I'm glad, I'm glad this is a time when you're, you're running into somebody who's not going to rob you. But, uh, is, is super interesting that you know, out of that many people, only one actually asked me for references. And we gave them references like, call any of these people or look at anybody on my LinkedIn and tell me, you know, feel free to reach out to them. So anyway, it's just— it is interesting. And, you know, buyer beware with some of this stuff. Like, there's some people out there, you know, as I'm— I read their tweets and I'm like, oh man, like it sets off alarms, right? Usually, usually the first one is the the Grant Cardone in front of a, in front of a private jet one. That's the one where I'm like, oh man.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good, you know, signal. If you see someone standing in front of a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or a private jet, like, you probably shouldn't— don't want to mess with that person.

Yeah, yeah, it's totally with you. Totally with you. So yeah, I had a funny, funny thing happen to me yesterday. So my buddy calls me— speaking of reputations, all this kind of stuff— he calls me and he's like, hey, Girdley. I was like, yeah. He's like, you need to know about this. Uh, you know, a guy, a guy syndicating a deal in San Antonio, uh, is using your name and telling everybody you're putting a million bucks into it. And I was like, American? Like, and I was like, no, no, I'm not doing that at all. But so that was kind of a first like, oh man, maybe I think I finally made it moment where I'm like, oh, like Like I've become well known enough that somebody's lying to make a deal happen that I'm investing in it, but also like just totally dumb. Like how did anybody, you know, how, why would anybody do that and think like, I'm probably not going to hear about it. It's just like, you know, especially my friends who are like, you put money in that? I was like, hell no, I didn't put money in that. Were you crazy?

Yeah, that's crazy. That's, I guess when you know you've made it right when people are using your name. Falsely to say that you're investing in their deals. It's that, and it's like the fake Twitter account that's impersonating you. Those are the two tells that you've made it.

Oh yeah, I've had a couple of those, though they've kind of, they've kind of calmed down recently. I don't know why, maybe it wasn't working out. People are like, Girdley's selling me crypto scams? Like, it's just not believable.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Twitter's now, um you know, eliminating the bot problem because, uh, Elon's gonna take over.

Uh, we'll see. I do think there's, you know, on Twitter there seems like there's a purge of automated accounts every quarter or so because my friends will be like, hey, you know, what's going on? Have your follower accounts started to shrink or like go away or stop growing? And I think, you know, that's, that's when their automated systems come through and catch another batch of people. So anyway, I know they run a cat and mouse game with the scammers, so it is what it is.

Yeah, yeah, super cool.

Okay, so one thing I want to ask you about, uh, so I've done, I've done two podcasts that have continued on after more than a handful of episodes. Acquisitions Anonymous, which is our small business acquisitions podcast, that's made 100 episodes. That just got released today. So nice. Yeah, that, that is a lot of work, but we have a ton of fun doing it. And then this podcast is on like episode 45 or so. So yeah, pretty, pretty exciting. But I want to talk to you about your podcast because you did a podcast and you did 3 episodes and you got Keith Rabot, who's like one of the world's most famous venture capitalists. And then you got David Rubenstein, who, who started the Carlyle Group, I believe, and is like super charismatic. And then who was your third one? You got like Jeffrey Immelt, like the former CEO of GE.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you started a podcast, you did 3 episodes with total ballers, and then you're like, I'm hanging up my spurs. Like, I'm done. This is over.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. You know, like I said earlier, you know, like with our— yeah, it sounds super strange. And with our real estate private equity firm, you know, when I mentioned like, I don't— we don't want to get distracted and go after new things and stuff like that. I think one of my strengths is like the zero-to-one phase, right? Where I'm like, hey, I can start something and get it going or stop it very early in the case of the podcast. And this was an outlet for me to be like, hey, I like a podcast. Just sounds cool. It sounds fun. I get to talk to awesome people. Let me go try this thing because this will distract me from like ruining our own business, trying to like go buy self-storage or RV parks or mobile home parks or something like this. Like, let's not ruin what's working. Let me go try to start something new here. So I did the podcast. They were great. I think we had really good conversations and it was fun. But, you know, I just kind of like got bored and, you know, something else, you know, distracted me. And then I was like, okay, I'll go do this thing and try this out for a little bit. So I got with the podcast. I think I was just like, that was fun. The few episodes I did. I don't know if I want to keep doing this. You know, credit to you running a couple. Like, it's a lot of effort. You have to put in a lot of preparation. You need to do research on the people. You want to make it a unique interview. So you go like deep in the archives. I mean, I found things I'd never known, you know, about these people, which was amazing. And yeah, I think it was just a cool experiment to do. I'll do like, you know, I think maybe a couple episodes a year or something like that where Um, you know, I talk with someone and we have a really good conversation and I'll just say like, hey, this was great. Like we should be recording this and like sending it out to the world. Um, and so that's probably how I'll approach it now. But yeah, I like to start things just as experiments to be like, yeah, I tried that. And like, you know, I liked it for this period of time or, um, I tried that and now I'm like actually going to go do this thing for, you know, a long time.

Uh, okay. So that totally makes sense. And like, I am a huge fan of quitting stuff quickly. I think most people stick with stuff way too long. And, you know, I think that's one of the benefits of getting older is you start to really run across a number of things when it really, really works and you're like, oh, this is really working, right? And then that allows you to identify the stuff that's just kind of mediocre or lukewarm and just quit that stuff. Um, the danger there, I think though, is there are a lot of things that they don't come out of the gate like winning or losing. Like you don't really ever, ever know. And like, you know, I was looking at another content creator, I think Alex Hormozi, I think is the guy's name. And I was like, man, look, this guy's got like a number 20 podcast. And then I realized he's done 450 episodes to become an overnight success. Like, like that's years of just kind of putting in the work to make it happen. And like, you know, Chris Power's podcast, even Joe Rogan, like you go watch some of those early Joe Rogan shows and it's like, oh man, who was watching this? Is there— it was like this video of Joe like trying to click around on his computer screen to turn on his microphone. Like just hilarious stuff. But anyway, That's kind of the danger of quitting too fast, I think. But anyway, I think that's super cool. So, so, okay, so getting famous guests for your podcast. So you had 3 badasses for the podcast. Tell me, what was your technique to get them? And were they— was it 3 out of 3, or did you get, uh, get some— get it done some other way?

Uh, no, I got some nos for sure. Um, so the first one was relatively easy, uh, with Jeff. I'd worked at GE, and so, you know, that was an easy podcast to coordinate.

So how did you do that? Did you like— how did that work tactically? Did you just like cold email him, or—

yeah, I just— I have his email, so I just emailed him. I said, hey Jeff, I'm going to start a podcast, you want to come on? Uh, he had written a book, uh, you know, about GE and kind of, um, in his view what the story was, because I think there was a lot of, you know, criticism from one side over time. Um, and so I knew that he wrote the book, I read the book, and I thought that, you know, he would do a podcast to to discuss the book and the time at GE. And so, yeah, you know, that one was pretty easy. David, you know, I just sent an email and then I was connected to his, you know, like PR team. And then, you know, I had a conversation and that one was pretty easy to schedule as well, which that was surprising because I was like, you know, David Rubenstein is like, you know, still the executive chairman of Carlyle. He does all of the stuff. He has TV shows, podcasts, whatever. The day I interviewed him, he was like giving an award to the Queen of England or something that night. And so I was super surprised that we like got that one organized really quickly. It was like in a few weeks after I sent the email. And then Keith, it was very similar. I just, you know, found his email, cold emailed him, and, you know, he was— he agreed to come on. There was a couple others I emailed, and probably not a couple, probably like 5 people I emailed, and you know, I got nos or no responses.

Yeah. So 3 out of 8. That's pretty horrible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good at cold emailing. I think like there's a kind of a framework you can use. I'm sure you're familiar with it, which is like, you know, keep it short and brief, tell them why this is valuable to them, and then make it super easy for them to say yes. And if you can kind of hit the end and, you know, maybe a line that like, you know, about them, like there's a specific reason you're contacting them or, or something like that. And and if you do that, you can connect with pretty much like anyone in the world that you want to connect with. It's amazing.

It's amazing. So how did you make it when you cold emailed them? How did you make it easy for them to say yes?

So with Jeff, it was, you know, again, like the Jeff one was easy, so I won't use that. But David and Keith, I usually just put a one-liner in there like, you know, and if you'd like to, come on the pod, we can do like these times, just respond with the one that works for you. So kind of saying like, hey, we're going to go do this, like, just let me know which time you want. And all they need to respond with is like, you know, yes, June 24th, 2 PM, no, or hey, I'm forward it or like it gets forwarded to their assistant. And so, you know, if you are cold emailing a busy person that you want to connect with, Your email should not be like your life story. It should be something where they can just respond to with like yes, no, or a question really, but usually just yes or no. And then you can connect with anyone you want, probably.

Super interesting. And so do you— how do you feel about what you only interviewed 3, 3 famous people? Like, I feel like doing this podcast where it's— I mean, it's a bit more discussion-oriented, than a lot of interviews. It's a lot more discussion-oriented. But I feel like when I do this, like, I've discovered it's like an amazing way to build like long-term relationships with people. Like, it's a really focused conversation. Like, unlike, you know, other situations where it's just like an intro Zoom or whatever, like, like you and I are both intensely focused in this moment, right? It's a very kind of flow-type state situation. Like, I've discovered like this is a great way to build relationships with people. Much better than going to lunch, in my humble opinion. And maybe you feel differently after you hear the rest of my questions. But anyway, the— so did you— I feel like that works, you know, and you and I are friends and peers and that sort of thing. But when these kind of famous people come on, do you feel like you generated like a relationship with them? Like, would Keith remember you at a bar? Like, you know, do you have that kind of like, you know, like any data points around that one way or another?

Right. I'm not sure. You know, yeah, I'm not exactly sure. I will say this, though. Like, I've been cold emailing forever and I email, you know, with people that like, I can just ask them a question, like a specific question I have, not trying to waste their time, not trying to just connect with them, just connect with them, but like just ask them a specific question that I have about business or a problem I'm facing or a challenge I'm facing. Business or in sometimes like just life or family and, you know, they'll answer. And for some of those people we've never met, we've just been emailing back and forth for years. And so I think you can build relationships through, you know, connecting digitally with anyone that you want on the podcast. I haven't done it long enough, you know, to know if that would happen. I'm sure for some of the guests, yeah, it would be the case where they would love to meet and, you know, grab lunch, coffee, whatever. And for some of them they would just say, you know, my schedule is too busy, like I can't meet and I do a lot of these podcasts. I think for your format though, like definitely right, like, you know, like I mean, we would meet regardless if we weren't doing the podcast or not, right? I'm sure that's the case for a lot of your other guests, but I'm sure that this is a great way to meet new people, get to know them a lot better because this is just a conversation like you or I would have at Capital Camp at lunch. But the benefit is that we get to talk about this, record it, and share it for anyone. And hopefully it's going to be helpful for those people.

Yeah, well, that's kind of the, the fundamental thesis that I have is if I'm learning from you, and if you feel like you're learning from me, that's a benefit too. Like, if I'm learning, then people are going to find it useful because I'm finding it useful. Just like if I'm finding something interesting, they're most likely going to find it interesting. Otherwise, they probably aren't going to be in my audience. But anyway, that's the core thesis here. So Hopefully it'll keep working. You know, I do have a data point about this kind of podcast as a way to build real relationships. Like at Capital Camp, like I ran into Chris Powers, right, who's pretty well known on social media. He was there and like he and I have never met in person. Never met in person. We've been on two podcasts with each other, me on his and vice versa, and DM'd a couple of times. That's it. That's the whole thing. But literally, like, we walked up to each other and our instinct was like to give each other a big hug and say, I'm so glad to see you. Like, it was just like, it was like one of those things where it's like, you know, I don't think if the podcast was there, there would be that kind of bond. Even with some, you know, how many times do you hug somebody you've like never been in the presence of before? Like, I barely hug my kids. Like, it's pretty amazing. So anyway, I thought that, I thought that was a good anecdote about the power of this stuff.

Yeah, totally. I did the same exact thing because I've had this— I had the same exact experience. And there was like so many like that from at Capitol Camp or other people that I've met where we've only talked on Twitter. You see each other in real life at, you know, an event or a conference or a meetup or something like that, and you hug each other because like, you know each other. Like, that is your people. That's your tribe. You didn't need to meet them in person before because you met online and You know, you've like created this friendship pretty much. So yeah, I agree. It's amazing. And then, you know, you go to these things and people are like, hey, I follow you on Twitter, or you go up to someone, you're like, hey, I follow you on Twitter. And it's really cool because you know what, at least like what they're publicly thinking about and talking about. I think it's awesome. It's amazing.

It is. It's super cool though. The Capital Camp turned out to be like a scaled version of my Twitter DMs to some extent where I was like, You want free, you want free business advice. That's, I understand. All right. So, but I mean, when, when people would come up, like, it was super, it was super nice to hear people say thank you for like the content, like I would put out and they'd be like, it helps me a lot. Like, you have no idea. Like some guy from Houston who had no idea, like he came up and he's like, like the stuff you put out, like changed my life. I was like, whoa, like, that's amazing. Like, that's, that's a good. Deposited in the karma bank. Now, like, did I monetize any or whatever? Like, who cares? But like, like, it was, it was cool to hear. Like, I totally dug it.

Yeah, totally. I think it's true too, right? Like, uh, just one point, like your stuff about, um, how you set goals, kind of like how you develop the long-term plan and then work backwards from it. Uh, I read that and I was like, this is amazing. I have a note that I need to go use your framework and go do that. So, you know, I think the stuff that we put out, it like is very helpful for people and yeah, it's super impactful. Yeah.

Well, great. I'm glad it's proven useful to you. Let me know how it works out two decades from now. So, but I mean, it's— yeah, I've struggled so long with keeping long-term plans and not chasing shiny objects, and it took me 20 years to figure out a system to keep me from doing it. So I'm pretty Pretty stoked. Um, so, uh, speaking of things that you do that I find really smart, like you have a whole thread about virtual assistants. I do not have a virtual assistant. I keep promising my business coach I will hire a virtual assistant. I keep not hiring a virtual assistant. To some extent, like, I looked at your list of things that you ask your virtual assistant to do, and like, I've always struggled with just being like, oh, like, do I have enough things that are things I can keep this person busy to do. And I think you've done an amazing job of coming up with this list of like a million things that you have your virtual assistant do. So I don't know if you feel comfortable kind of, um, remind me how stupid I am not to have a virtual assistant. 3, 2, 1, go.

Yes, you definitely need one. I'm actually shocked and surprised that you don't have one. So, uh, that'll be our action item after this podcast, something you get one.

Writing it down. It's the same reaction I give my business coach, by the way. He's like, why don't you do this? I'm like, fine, I'm writing it down, get to work on it.

I'm gonna look, I'm gonna check, I'm gonna ask you tomorrow. I'm gonna text you like, hey, did you, did you get one? What's going on?

Okay, so anyway, 3-2-1 business coach, right? For somebody, or not business coach, virtual assistant, what, you know, what is, what is the model that you like to use? And then You know, how does, how does somebody like me do a good job with a virtual assistant? I think those are really two questions.

Yeah, totally. So, you know, having a virtual assistant, super impactful. I did the tweet thread. I said like anyone over $100K should have one. I don't know if that's the right barometer, but like, you know, anyone who's making a decent amount of money should definitely have one to outsource and delegate and automate all of the things that they're doing that is well below their kind of like dollar per hour threshold or whatever their aspirational you know, dollar per hour threshold is. So that's kind of like the context and the framing of why people need one right now. The way that I think about it is like I do a bunch of tasks throughout the day. Each one of these tasks requires some cognitive overhead. By the end of the day, I'm exhausted because I've made like 1,000 decisions if I'm doing all of these little things right. So I just have a framework. Let's say like when you— if someone's first starting this process, which is just you literally track everything that you do for, you know, minimum 1 day, maybe maximum 7 days in a Google Sheet for every like 5 to 10 to 15 minute increment. So just track everything that you do. After you do that, then what you'll do is you'll kind of categorize each thing. So imagine you have a Google spreadsheet and you'll just say like, you know, is this repeatable? Can this be trained? And then do I like doing this? And really, you actually only need 1 and 3, which is like, is this repeatable? And do I like doing this? If it's repeatable, yes. And you don't like doing it, no. Then it's like, okay, this is something that can be delegated. Because oftentimes the reason you don't say like, can this be trained on, is people don't— people sometimes think like, only I can do this. Nobody else can do this. Only I'm the person that can do this. And the reality is that's not the case. So So if you're that type of person, don't have that column. And you just go through and you start saying like, okay, you know, all of these things, if I were to delegate them, depending on how many times I do this task, like how much time will I save? And then you just get to work based on priorities, prioritizing them. Hey, here we go. I'm going to record a Loom video for this, for this, for this. Then you just go through a framework of trying to source them, hire them, train them up and get going.

Yeah. And so how do you think about an onshore person, so in the same country, US or wherever, versus offshore and then time zones? Like, I know a lot of people do Philippines. I work really well with people in Argentina, mostly because I speak broken 4-year-old Spanish at them and I find it hilarious and they sometimes laugh at my jokes. But so how do you think about, how do you think about those kind of two dynamics of like onshore, offshore, and then kind of how to find the right, right kind of country or place for you to work with somebody overseas?

Yeah, so the— I like overseas. I like Philippines in particular. I've tried a few countries, Philippines, Pakistan, India. I have tried the US. I felt like the value that I get in the Philippines is the greatest. The English is really good. The work ethic is amazing. Time zones, they're willing to flex to your time zone. I mean, for a lot of people that are in this line of work in the Philippines, they're used to working US time zone because that has been typically the types of jobs that they've had. And, you know, you know, when you look at the US, the cost that you get in the US relative to Philippines is anywhere from like one-third to maybe one-fifth, one-sixth of the cost of what you'll get in the US. The work ethic is so much higher. The work product is just as good, if not better. And so I really like the talent in the Philippines. Um, I've tried the US and, you know, I just haven't felt like the value has, has really been there.

Yeah. And then in terms of sourcing the people, like finding candidates and interviewing them and vetting them, what do you think are kind of the best practices? I know there are different services that people go through. There's, um, online job boards specifically for Philippines and other places. Like, what do you see as kind of the pluses and minuses of how to source somebody good?

Yeah. So what I used to do is I would find them on Upwork. I would go through, I would select a bunch of filters that kind of filtered out the best people. So, you know, English speaking, 95 or 99% like plus job rating, they've built 10,000 hours plus all of those kinds of things, which I was like, this person is experienced and they've done really well. And then I would just go through like a very quick interview process of like 10 to 20 people. You know, like half of them don't show up for the interviews. You just batch them all like, you know, 10 minutes after each other for a couple days. You know, half don't show up, half show up, but, you know, can't really speak English that well. The other, like, as you narrow it down, you'll figure out there's like 2 people and then you can either put them both on like a 30, 60 day timeline, see which one you like, or you can just go with one and pick it. Now I've shifted my process where I don't go through all of that. Because it takes time. Sometimes it's really tough to source high quality. So I've just started using Support Shepherd, which has, you know, done a great job at sourcing really high quality people for me. I don't have to spend any time on that process. They do it all. You pay like, I forget, like 1/4 or 1/5 of their total salary for the year or something like that. So that was just worth it to me. And then, you know, you interview them, the person, and then you can hire them.

Yeah, yeah. We, you know, we started a business a year ago to do similar kind of sourcing and helping people hire in Latin America. And we're gravitating over time that what American companies really want as a solution is kind of what they're doing, right? Which is they just don't want to bother with it. They're just like, they want to, they want to get, take the problem off their hand and be just like, give me a good person and I'll pay a premium for that. Which has been really kind of entertaining for me to learn that because I thought And my hypothesis at the beginning was I thought people would really want to own that process like you did and do it that way because they want to make sure they get good people. And like, it's interesting that they were learning that companies just are just like, we'll pay a premium, just take care of it for us, which is, which is I guess where those guys, Shephard and others, ended up, you know, 2 years ago. So anyway, it just is an interesting thing you're saying because it's totally consistent with what with my total misunderstanding of the world, uh, when we started the company. So this was okay.

You've told us people will pay for convenience.

It turns out that's kind of, kind of works, man. So good. Um, so, and then as you said, it's, uh, typically 1/5 to 1/3 US rates for somebody in Philippines. So I've heard like $8 to $10 an hour for a lot of these folks. Is Is that consistent with what you're seeing these days?

Yeah, it'll depend on, you know, each person and kind of the quality of person you're getting. For us, we're paying roughly around $10 an hour, and then that's just the base rate. We'll do certain things like, so for example, you know, in December, it's just kind of like the cultural thing that you pay a bonus at that time to the employees. You know, one thing we do to incentivize and like reward really good work is we'll just pay like spot bonuses. So for example, like a couple of things is the VA will manage my calendar, my email inbox, right? If they've responded to an email like in a really good way that I would have done that, I'll just pay a bonus, which is like, you know, $50 or something, which is a small amount like, you know, in US dollars. But it's very meaningful when you're paying. That's like 5 hours of work, right? And so you do that kind of stuff and it rewards the right behaviors and the, the actions that you want from the VA.

Yeah, totally dig it. And then Support Shepherd, you're paying them directly and then they're doing— handling all the payroll and everything? So they're like a, a PEO?

No, I just pay them— just, yeah, I just paid them a one-time fee for sourcing the person. Um, I do, you know, you do all your, um, payment however you want it, so like Wise or PayPal or whatever it might be.

Got it. Or crypto. Yeah, or Bitcoin. Uh, yeah, I was, uh, I had hired an overseas person who may or may not be listening to us and was like, hey, I wanna, you know, I wanna get paid via crypto. And then we realized the crypto we were using had been, uh, had been Terra Luna. It was still down. I was like, it's not working, dude. It's not working. So it was pretty funny. Like, we're gonna have to pick something different. So good times. Uh, so you wrote down a couple topics in our prep of things you wanted to make sure we talked about. So I wanna make sure we did that. We did talk about JT Capital. How it works. I think if there's anything we missed there, happy to loop back on that. And then, uh, you had written a couple other things about building systems and taking the leap from W-2 to founder that we talked about that a bit. But, um, any of that comes to mind of stuff that we should talk about?

Yeah, I think maybe like the, uh, the W-2 to founder thing. I think when I wrote my story online about how I made that leap and like, you know, the steps I took, I think that was something that resonated with a lot of people because You know, now I don't even think about it that much, but there's a lot of people that are in their jobs and it's like the golden handcuffs and they're like, how do I get out of this thing? I'm like too scared to make the leap. How do I go do my own thing? So if you want, we can talk about that.

Yeah, let's talk about it. I'm sure it's super interesting. I don't feel that qualified to talk about it because I kind of cheated. Like my first entrepreneurial venture was going to work in a family business and they're like, here, you get to be CEO in a couple of years. And I was like, oh cool. Like, that sounds great. Like, so Anyway, I envy people that are like, so I quit my job and I had $20 in my checking account and I delivered Domino's pizzas, and then, then 3 years later I was a billionaire. Like, those are fun stories. And I'm like, well, Daddy gave me a job and then I just worked really hard since then. So anyway, curious your take on how normal people who are not as privileged as, as maybe I was, uh, can make that happen.

Yeah, well, we all have some sort of privilege, so I wouldn't, you know, beat yourself up about it.

I'm not mad about it. I just don't have a good story. I'm just mad about not having a good story.

Um, so yeah, I'll just give my brief story, which was like, you know, I was working at Facebook and I was like, this is not working for me. Um, I— anyone can put a meeting on my calendar, I have to show up. You know, I just read The 4-Hour Workweek. I'd like try to implement these things at my job, like saying no to meetings, and people are like, what are you doing? Like, that's not allowed. And so I was like, you know, I want like some level of freedom over my time. I don't want people telling me what to do. I don't have to like ask someone to take vacation. Like, none of this to me feels like, you know, how I want to live my life. And so it's super scary when you're getting paid every 2 weeks and you have bills and stuff like that to make the leap. And so, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about like how I kind of did that and gradually saving money and, you know, ultimately kind of like little by little taking the leap. But when I eventually did it, what I did was this fear setting exercise by Tim Ferriss, where pretty much you write down like you're making a major life decision. What is that major life decision? You know, that's like on the left-hand side of the column. And then on the other columns it says like, okay, if everything goes terribly, like, what will I do? Right? So if I go off by myself and this business just fails terribly and like I lose all my money, what am I going to do? And then I realized like, okay, well, like, I can just move in with like, it was me and my wife. Like, we can just move in with like, with one of our parents. Like, that's going to suck. But like, that's not that bad. Like, we're not going to go homeless. Then it was like, okay, you know, things are— I forgot the other columns were, but it was like, if things are failing, like, what would you do to turn it around? Well, it's like, okay, you know, your bank account doesn't go from like X to just zero, like overnight, hopefully. It like happens gradually as you're spending money on this business. And so like, okay, if we have like 6 months of runway, runway, I can just go get another job or, you know, do some freelancing or something like that and it'll be okay. We can extend this runway, we can still have money. And then one of the more most impactful columns is like, what would happen to my life if I didn't do this? Or like, what would I regret if I didn't do this? And that one is like very similar to Jeff Bezos's like regret minimization framework, which is like, if I don't do this, then like, here's what my life's going to be like in 5, 10, 15 years. And like, I'm not going to be a very happy person ever because I like didn't take that leap. And so I think that for most people, or maybe most people that were in a situation that was similar to what I was in, I would really suggest you know, saving money, doing that fear setting exercise. When you do the fear setting exercise, like, reach out to me. I want to hear what you learn about yourself because people have reached out to me after, you know, they've done it for themselves. And those are my favorite stories to hear, you know, that I get DMs about. So yeah, that's a little bit about kind of how I thought about the framework of doing it, a very tactical exercise that got me over the hump because I think we fear things that actually are not like should not be risk. Should— we shouldn't be fearful at all about, uh, but I think it's just like how our brain has evolved over time. But now we live in very safe times, and that doesn't necessarily serve us very well.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's biologically— being fearful of stuff that is the unknown unknown is actually entirely rational if you're a DNA molecule, but it sucks if you're like a human living in 2022. So a million, million percent agree with you.

Yeah.

Well, cool, man. I think that's a great place to, to put a pin in it. That just super cool to talk to you and you're so thoughtful about stuff and really cool just to be connected and in your orbit now. So in closing, how can people follow along with your journey and kind of stay in touch with you?

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. The two places to find me would be on Twitter. So just Rohan Chohar, my first and last name. And then you can go to jtcapitalgroup.com online if you don't want to reach out to us or talk to us about multifamily. But thanks so much for having me, Girdley. This was awesome, and I'm looking forward to meeting again soon in Austin or San Antonio.

Yeah, sounds great. All right, we'll stop there. Thanks again.

See ya.