Kevin Dahlstrom, CEO of Swell Money - The future of wealth building - The Michael Girdley Show Episode 40

Hey, Michael here. Welcome to another episode of the Michael Girdley Show. Today I sat down and had a bit over an hour-long chat with my buddy Kevin Dahlstrom, who is a rock climber, serial entrepreneur, Twitterer, and all-around energetic good guy out of Boulder, Colorado. So Kevin, we'll talk a bit about his background a bit, but we talked about some pretty cool stuff. He's my age, Gen X also, so we talked about staying fit in middle age. His company, Swell Money, also came up a bit. He's gotten back in the arena and started a business. We talked about Elon. I volunteered again to come in and run Twitter, so I'm still available, Elon, if you're listening. And then we closed with a cool discussion around how to kick ass at everything, which to me was pretty cool to hear him, him being Kevin, describe how to do it. So I really enjoyed this episode. I hope you enjoy it too. But first, a quick word from our sponsor, and then we'll get right with Kevin.

Thanks.

Hey, Michael here. Today's sponsor is Harbor Capital. So Harbor Capital is a firm located up in Austin, and they are a real estate private equity firm that focuses specifically on light industrial assets across the state of Texas. So Levi and his team, I've gotten to know them pretty well, having worked with them as an advisor over the past several months and excited to have them sponsor today's episode. So, you know, what they do is basically, you know, acquire these real estate assets using their own money and investor money as well. And then they manage them over time for cash flow and appreciation, hopefully with everybody winning throughout that process. So they're excited about what's going on, and I've seen what they're doing. And they're also building a portfolio designed to weather both the ups and downs of the economic cycle. So thanks to Levi, thanks to Arbor Capital for sponsoring today's episode. And helping me on my never-ending quest to make the Michael Girdley Show a break-even podcast. I'm so excited to do that. And thanks again to those guys. Check them out at harborcap.com. And here, back to the episode. All right, Kevin, thanks for being here. My first Gen X guest on the podcast. So thanks for doing it.

Yes. Here's for the Gen Xs. We don't get enough credit. The last low-drama generation, by the way.

Uh, it's funny. It's funny. How many Gen Zs do you spend time with? Like the younger, the post-millennials, the ones—

well, I mean, my kids, I spend a lot of time with them and, you know, so, so yeah, I mean, a lot of millennials, a lot of Gen Zs. I mean, when you work in the tech world, you run into a lot of them. So, and by the way, I'm super fascinated with the whole like generational descriptor thing. I think it's actually a useful tool and it's just fascinating to observe the differences.

Yeah, well, so I mean, what do you think about these people that are like, I don't buy generational differences at all? Like, I get that response probably a third of the time. People are just like, uh, all generations are basically the same.

No, I mean, that's— well, I don't know how you can claim that because, you know, we're all a, uh, a product or a victim of our upbringing, right? And we all— we grew up in dramatically different environments. I actually did a little mini post on, on Gen X today and pointed out that You know, Gen X, we are the, the OG tech generation, right? Because, you know, you and I are about the same age. We, you know, our early childhood, the internet and computers didn't exist. And we, so we were the first to own PCs. We were the first coders, the first generation of coders and computer scientists, the first gaming consoles. You know, it just goes on and on. We, we You know, the browser, the World Wide Web, like the Gen X is founded by far the most startups of any generation. And so, yeah, no, there's huge differences. And I think, you know, I look at my kids and they grew up in a completely different environment, right? I mean, they had social media from the time, you know, how early did your kids learn to swipe on a phone?

Well, I can remember my kids being infants and this is like 10 or 12 years ago. And my kids are 12 and 16 now, or 13 and 16. And I can remember the 16-year-old being an infant and walking up to a TV and like trying to swipe it to the left or the right, like, or to move it to the home screen and like being like, "What's wrong with this TV? Why won't it change the channel?" 'Cause that's how they grew up.

And my kids are 15 and 17, by the way. And my 15-year-old, you know, she lives in the metaverse already. I mean, you know, most of her friends are from her online community. She's a gamer, she's in Discord groups. And so like, this is what kind of cracks me up about the whole, by the way, the whole remote work conversation is like, if you don't think the future is, you know, remote and involves some form of, you know, metaverse, you know, just look at kids. Like they, the idea of like gathering physically will seem really bizarre, not in the not too distant future.

Yeah. Well, my 16-year-old will yell at us, um, cause he's 16, but like, He will tell us like, I just want to go hang out with my friends. And we're like, yeah, okay, well, there's the front door, like go drive over there and talk to them. And what he means is he wants to get on Discord with them and play video games. And it's just, it's just a totally bizarre perspective. It drives, drives my lovely wife nuts.

Same here. My wife often, you know, kind of reacts negatively to it. And my take on it's probably a little bit contrarian is like, that's the world we live in. Like that is You know, that is how they socialize. Now, clearly we'd like to get them out of the house a little bit, but, but you know, that's, and it's same thing. Like, I'm sure you have the same thing where like, why am I buried in Twitter? You know, for X hours a day. Um, it's not just because I enjoy it. Like that is the world that I operate in now. It's a big part of my business, a big part of my life. And so, you know, I don't view it as like technology or metaverse versus the real world. It's just all kind of mashed together.

Yeah, well, and so this is something I've been thinking about. Like, you go look in Twitter, and to some extent, you and I are not, you know, we're— I'm 47, you're 51. Like, we're not dinosaurs because there's some boomers kind of running around, but like, there's so few Gen Xers running around, and the few that are on there are totally uncomfortable like talking about and being their whole self online. And, you know, as I think about it, like, in the little community of Twitter you and I are in, like, I don't know any other Gen Xers who are like really adopting the platform like the right way, like bringing their whole self. So I was just curious why, what made it like natural for you to like come be like your whole self, like, and talk about your feelings and your wins and losses? Like, because most people our age seem to be totally terrified of doing that.

Yeah, uh, I think a lot of it for me is, you know, I don't know any other way. I mean, that's sort of how I'm wired. Um, you know, I, I've said before, I think maybe I was born a little bit ahead of my time because I, I really do like have no problem relating to the younger generations. I feel very, very comfortable around them. And I hadn't even thought about that, that, you know, there's probably, um, not a ton of Gen X people who are sort of, like you said, living their whole self online. But, you know, I think what's interesting about Twitter, and I think you're part of this, is a lot of us came onto Twitter around the same time, and it wasn't that long ago. I mean, I've had a Twitter account since 2007, but I didn't really start posting until the pandemic started, and I was like stuck in my house, and I was like, well, I like to write. And I think you and a lot of the guys that run in our circles, and ladies too, um, you know, we all started around the same time. And, you know, I didn't come in with any expectations or rules I was trying to follow. My whole take on Twitter was I like to write. It's like journaling. And so I'm just going to shout into the void and write things for myself. And if anybody else likes it, that's gravy. And then, you know, one thing leads to another and it changes over time. But, you know, I don't know, I guess I've never had the problem. I guess one of the things our generation struggles with a little bit is vulnerability, which is what you're talking about. And I've— that's not something— I've always been a pretty vulnerable guy, I think partially because I had such a crazy upbringing that it was my only— it was my outlet to like, I had to use it as a relief valve. I had to talk about it.

Yeah. So what's the story of your crazy upbringing? I don't think I've ever—

oh yeah. So, well, I grew up in a smallish town in Texas and, you know, um, I won't get into the gory details, but, uh, you know, had, you know, prison time and addiction and mental illness, uh, run pretty strong in my family. So, you know, my, when I, turned 18 and went to college, you know, scholarship was my ticket out and haven't really looked back. And, but, but, you know, so in some ways it's like Twitter is very therapeutic for me, you know, cause I'm pretty open about everything in my personal and professional life. And, you know, I don't, I don't go to see a professional therapist. So maybe that's my outlet. I'm inflicting my wounds upon others.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what I do now is definitely like, I can trace it back to like traumas as a teenager and a kid. So anyway, if it's any consolation, like, you know, that girl refused, who refused to go out with me when I was 14, like I'm still working through that. So that girl that dumped me when I was a sophomore in college, like still, I'm still working through that stuff.

And the nerds shall inherit the earth.

Yeah, yeah, pretty funny. I mean, what is, what is interesting is when I, you know, I have to train myself because when you deal with somebody when they're a 14-year-old kid, your initial inclination is to just assume that they're the same person when they're a 44-year-old adult. And I've had to train myself to just be like, oh, like, I, I, this, the way this person acted when they were a child is not who they necessarily are as an adult, right? And so, so there was a time earlier in my adulthood where I would be like, ah, that person was this way, you know, a cool kid in high school And I'm like, oh, like that was 30 years ago. So who cares? Not a big deal anymore.

You know, it's funny. I talk a lot about like, you know, I've had my 30-year high school reunion now and it's, it's very interesting to look back and, you know, you, like you said, you remember kind of what category you put all these individuals in and to see how they've changed. And obviously things change dramatically over time. And so Yeah, it's interesting. And you do have to kind of like, um, start over and, you know, let the bully have a second chance, I guess.

Well, I'm bigger than all of them.

Maybe, maybe it's our turn to bully them, Michael. I don't know.

It could be. Well, I'm 6'5", almost 230, so it's like, okay, you want to mess with me? Like, fine.

Yeah, I think you and I may also be like, um, we're probably like the largest podcast duo that's live right now. I'm, I'm 6'3", but I'm a little lighter than— I'm 195, but we're— we could make a pretty formidable Duo.

Oh, there you go. Well, yeah, form a gang, it'd be great. So one thing I did want to talk to you about, because I've thought about this a lot but I'm interested in how you think about it, is like staying fit into middle age. And I've got— and the context is like, I've got all these friends and you're not one of them. Like, you're still incredibly active. Like, we see pictures of you like rock climbing and all that stuff, and like, uh, working on your finger strength, which I think is fascinating from a rock climbing standpoint. But like Like I've got all these friends and acquaintances who like I used to work out with a ton 10 years ago and they're like physically broken now. Like they can't, they can't work out hard or they've let themselves go. Like it all, it all just ended like bad knees or some combination thereof. So I was just curious, like how, how do you think about staying fit not only at our current age, but like making sure that's sustainable, you know, for like the next 20 years or do you not even care? Is it time to let it go and we just grow dad bods? Like, I could totally get into that too.

No, I mean, I don't see a dad bod in my future, you know, if I can prevent it. You know, it's funny because, you know, we all know the cliché, you know, health is wealth, right? And, but yet most people don't behave accordingly. My view has always been, you know, your body is your only vessel you get for this life on earth. And so why wouldn't you want to maximize its performance so you can squeeze the most out of life? And, you know, you'll see like most things in my life, you know, you'll hear me kind of bring in rock climbing. Rock climbing is intertwined into almost everything I do. But for me, that was really the key is finding something I was, you know, incredibly passionate about that also happened to be a mode of fitness. And I happen to think it's, by the way, the best mode of fitness there is because it combines literally everything, you know, strength, power, endurance, flexibility, coordination, mental, you know, strategy, and so on. But, but, you know, if it hadn't been rock climbing, I think it would have been something else for me because I, I'm a big believer that like, gosh, I just want to live the best life I can. I also did when I was in my 20s. I, I had a pretty serious viral infection that it left me with a bunch of symptoms post-viral illness that are very similar actually to Long COVID. I actually just posted something on Twitter about this yesterday, and that was a turning point in my life also, is that if I, you know, I felt horrible, and I quickly learned after visiting a bunch of doctors and clinics, like, hey, my health is my responsibility. If I ever want to get better, I've got to take things into my own hands. And so for me, it was like a confluence of events where, like, you know, I discovered rock climbing, I was trying to recover from this pretty serious illness And what you do is, as you know, Michael, you develop habits and patterns that kind of stick with you. And, you know, it's, it's like, it's such a big part of my life. And I'm sure you feel the same way. Like, if I don't have my, the fitness and health part of my life, my week just doesn't go well. It's just not, it's such an integral part of everything I do.

Well, I just did, I got back yesterday. I just did a 5-day trip for my buddy's 50th birthday, and we flew to Salt Lake City and drove back, stopping to mountain bike 3 hours a day every day. And, um, one of the guys that came with us was like a 23, 24-year-old guy that like hangs out and goes to our gym and stuff. He's a great guy. And, uh, he's like, why, why are we just always on the move? And I was like, well, did you ever read like On the Road? I don't know if you remember that book, the Jack Kerouac book. And it's just like, the book— I tried to explain to him, I was like, the book is just this, like, this beautiful picture of how, like, at a certain point in life you just want to go. Like, you just want to go do stuff and be busy and be flying from one thing to the next and involved in making stuff happen. And that whole book is that. Like, that's the thing I remember most from that book, besides the drugs I took, which was interesting. But the, the just the feeling that I had reading that book of just like that like energy that you just gotta go. And like, that's— anyway, I don't know why I want— maybe I just wanted to talk about that, but that was like how I felt at that moment. But it was like just so much, so much more fun than being sedentary, and I just couldn't imagine at this point in life.

Well, I mean, at risk of getting overly existential here, you know, it comes back to like kind of some of the fundamental questions of life. Like, at the end of the day, what are we trying— like, what's the goal? And, you know, I happen to believe that The, you know, the only things that really matter in life ultimately are experiences and relationships. And, um, so, you know, I've, I've tried to build my life around that, maximizing the experiences I have, you know, by being on the go a lot and then, you know, investing in relationships. And actually the, you know, it's, it's again, it's kind of cliché to say, but, but most people I think don't internalize it that The best of both of those things cost nothing. That's kind of the paradox. Yet we spend so much of our time chasing, chasing things, chasing money, chasing status, whatever. So I was maybe a little bit ahead of my time in that because even, you know, I don't know about you, but I kind of grew up in an era in corporate America where like the idea, like to even talk about like, you know, you know, a lifestyle as being important. You would have gotten laughed out of the conference room. Like, there was no thought of that. But I was all— I was never willing to make work the sole focus of my life. I wanted to— I wanted to kick ass at work, but I also wanted to kick ass at other things. And so that's what I preach about a lot online, is this idea of being multidimensional.

Yeah, well, I don't mean to distill you and me down to clichés. First of all, I disagree with everything you just said. I agree with everything you just— I agree with everything you just said, not disagree. I agree with everything you just said. But also if you like had to like look up in a dictionary, like prototypical, like Gen X attitudes on work, work-life balance, like meaning of life, all that kind of stuff. Like you and I just checked all the boxes, like all the way down. Like, and then like experiences over things, peer-to-peer relationships over like identifying with like an organization. Like you and I are going to be wired. I mean, typical Gen X is not going to trust organizations because they're, not trustworthy, right? Like, you can't trust institutions. So anyway, I don't mean to diminish you and me to a cliché. I'm definitely a cliché, and that's one of the things I'm okay with in life. But, but like, yeah, if anybody listening and is not Gen X, everything you just heard there is like perfect Gen X.

That's interesting. I didn't even realize those were necessarily Gen X traits. That's, that's pretty fascinating.

Yeah, I have a cool chart I can send you, um, that basically goes through and it's like 5 pages long, and each column is a generation And like talks about the things that, how each, each generation thinks about stuff, like of researchers who've gone and interviewed people and talked to them about what's important to you. Right. And how do you view, how do you view life? Like, how do you evaluate? What are your lenses to look at things? All that's all, it's all, there's a lot of science to it.

I think of those, that's, I'd love to see that because it reminds me of like some of these personality typing, you know, Enneagram or whatever. And they're incredibly useful tools because like just to use a generational example, like, I often make the mistake of expecting my kids to care about the same things I care about in the same way that I do. And you know how that works out. It doesn't, doesn't end well. And so I'd never really thought about it as much through a generational lens, though.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not perfect, you know, and just like the personality assessments, they're a good way to short circuit and and to know what to listen for, but not necessarily to prejudge somebody. And same with generational stuff. The actual craziest thing, uh, that I've seen recently about generations is like our kids' age. Um, well, you have all girls or do you have girls?

15 and 17. Yep.

Yeah. And I don't know if it happens with girl dads as much, but like one of the things is that this current generation of teenagers is the very first generation to see their parents as friends. Like, we always saw our parents as, you know, parents. And I don't know a better way to say it, but like, these kids these days are the first generation, by and large, to see their parents as friends because we treated them like adults, right? As equals from like day one. So like, I saw this speech from this lady who had studied generations and she's like, okay, how many of you have teenagers right now? I was like, oh yeah, I do. I have two. And she said, 'How many— how much— how often do your kids wear your clothes?' I was like, 'All the time. They just walk into my closet and they just start taking stuff, and like, they, they'll, they'll just take my stuff and just start wearing it. Like, it's just normal.' Um, so it's, it's a fascinating thing. And she said that's because this is the first generation to see their parents as friends. It's like swung all the way from the opposite of what the Baby Boomers went through, when kids were to be seen and not heard, to like, 'Oh, like, congratulations, you're 3, you're a peer.' We're going to treat you like one of us.

Like, that's really interesting. It resonates with me. I think that rings true with me. And I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. Like, uh, I also think our generation is maybe the first to like be particularly young at heart. So like, I think back on my parents when, when they, when they turned 40, they considered themselves old. And so did society. I'm thinking of like that famous Wilford Brimley picture that goes around the internet. Where it says, you know, shows a picture of Wilford Brimley, the actor, and he looks really old. And it says Wilford Brimley was 42 years old when this, you know, picture was taken. And it's like, wow, he looked like a grandfather, and he probably thought of himself that way. And I think our generation, for whatever reason, we, we think of ourselves as like— honestly, it's, it's, it's getting increasingly hard for me to make the case, even to myself, but I still think of myself as young. You know, and I like to think I can relate to my kids and their friends. And my parents didn't even try to do that. Like, they had zero interest in, in, you know, relating to us on our level.

Well, do you think we're just delusional?

Probably.

I mean, sometimes I'm like, I must be old because they're, they're acting like I'm an old person.

It can be, it can be, yeah, it can become sad, no doubt about it. Uh, but also, like, it's interesting, I think also the kids are, are sort of more worldly and wise also because of the internet. A great example being like, I connect to my older daughter, my 17-year-old, through music because she likes my music. Like, she's a huge fan of '80s music. She's a huge fan of like, um, '80s and '90s rock. We went to the Metallica concert together. Like, so, so they're kind of dipping back in time to our era. And where I didn't do that as a kid, like, I wasn't— like, in my teens, I wasn't interested in like '50s and '60s music. Like that was, don't even, I couldn't even name a song. So I think it's kind of like going both ways.

Yeah. What is, I see my son and I see him listening to like The Doors for the first time, you know, the band and, and I'm like, oh man, like, or how great would it be to be listening to Led Zeppelin for the first time and not the 900th time and just to experience, experience that stuff. So I kind of envy, envy the young in that way, the kind of the, I was thinking the other day that, Youth is wasted on the young. And then I said, you know what else is wasted? Wealth is wasted on the old. I don't know if that's, if that's an original thought or not, but I was like, ah, these, these rich old farts really don't know how to have a good time.

That is, I always, uh, I have a saying that's kind of a flavor of that. It's like, most billionaires are incredibly boring. It's shocking to me. Like, you see what Elon Musk does, which, you know, like him or hate him, he's doing cool shit with his money. And, uh, and why don't more billionaires do stuff like that? Like, like big idea moonshot, change the world things.

Yeah, well, that's, you know, I think about why at this, you know, I put out my 10-year goal, like I want to have a higher net worth, and I'm like, well, why do I want to have higher net worth? I really, I'm not motivated by money. It's that I want to work on more interesting projects, and I know if I can go write a big check, I can make things that I think are really interesting happen that right now are just impossible for me to do just because there's that chicken and egg of I don't have the net worth to support it. Um, so yeah, it, I would definitely be on the like Iron Man suit, like private island, you know, Dr. Evil. And not that I would be evil, but I want to go do those interesting projects. So, okay. So how do you or anybody, as you start to get older, stay interesting? What is the, what is, what is the key there?

Stay interesting.

Yeah, you just talked about like the problem is all these billionaires are boring. How— even if you're not a billionaire and getting old, how do you stay interesting?

It's funny, um, I've got a litmus test for that. So, um, there— I've been, you know, interviewing people for jobs for like, you know, 20-plus years, 25 years or something. And my entire career, I've always asked one question to every single person I've ever interviewed, which is What do you like to do when you're not working? And you would be shocked at how many people actually struggle to answer that question. And the best candidates sort of respond by saying, well, where should I start? And what that's a test for, Michael, is this thing that I preach about a lot, which is being multidimensional. I mean, honestly, like someone, no matter how successful someone is, if there's only like one dimension to them, let's say it's work, which is the case with a lot of men in particular. Like that's their identity, that only like— let's say you go on a 3-hour bike ride, you know, 5 days in a row with them. Like, you can only talk about that stuff so much. Like, there's only so much interesting stuff to talk about. Whereas if someone is into a whole bunch of different things, you know, like, you know, I'll use myself an example. Like, I'm interested in business of many flavors. I'm a real estate investor. I'm a climber. I love traveling. Like, Like, to me, you know, having those dimensions and being able to switch gears and, you know, being able to talk to different types of people and thrive in different communities, that is the kind of the spice of life.

Yeah. Well, so probe on that. So there's this idea that early on in a company's existence or a venture's existence, you need to have a lot of generalists. And then as the company starts to mature, you start to hire specialists. And like, is that tied to this concept you're talking about? Like, you're talking about somebody that's a— I mean, the way you just described yourself as somebody's a lot more of a generalist, like you're involved in a bunch of different stuff and seeing a bunch of different things, or, or is that generalist-specialist category categorization like different than what you're talking about?

I think, I mean, well, um, as it specifically applies, like startups or something, I've got quite a bit of experience with And I think of it less as the generalist special— because I actually believe, like, as in, I've invested in, I think, 56 startups. I've been an angel investor for a long time, and I actually look for founders that have like unique and super deep expertise on one problem. They uniquely understand a problem, and where others don't, they see— and they— so they can see things that others don't. I guess, you know, when it comes to this like starting companies, I broadly classify the world a little bit differently, which is like, I think there's zero to one people, which is, you know, pretty common. A lot of people talk about that. I think there's one to tens and ten to hundreds, and they each have very different skill sets. Very, very few people can span all three. Some people can span two, um, but most are really just good at one. And I think it's— so to me, it's like a different dimension. It's not so much about generalist versus specialist, it's really about more like how you're wired. Are you really comfortable working with a blank slate like I am? Like, I, I get uncomfortable when there's too many constraints already in place. I actually prefer a blank canvas, whereas I have friends who are, you know, really successful and great at what they do, who are more systems people, who like love coming in and fine-tuning systems and taking a company from $10 million to $100 million in revenue or whatever.

Yeah. Okay. So this natural curiosity of getting involved in lots of stuff in life and, and having a life outside of work and kind of vanilla interest, you think that's different than the— well, you, I guess you just made the argument the generalist specialist thing isn't really— is a false dichotomy.

Well, I think the difference was like you, you started with, you know, what makes someone interesting. And I think an interesting person doesn't necessarily, you know, make a great founder or, or business person. I just think it takes a lot more than that, um, that, you know, uh, that there's, there's skill sets beyond just curiosity that become really important in, in like certain contexts like business.

Yeah. When I wonder also, like, I think to some extent we're talking about why people of means aren't doing interesting stuff and, uh I mean, Elon definitely is doing interesting stuff in an interesting fashion. Um, I, I struggle with like, how do I not get boring?

Yeah, that's terrible. Actually, Elon's a great one to talk about. Like, I was sitting— well, when you mentioned his name, I was immediately thinking, would I consider him a generalist or a specialist? And maybe he's just a one-of-a-kind where he can go both broad and deep, because like, he's definitely deep in all the areas that he has business in. Like, He can talk rocket engines. He can talk, you know, the, I mean, he slept on the factory floor at Tesla and he can tell you every step in the manufacturing process. Um, so maybe he's just a, like, it's, you have to be careful, right? When you use outliers as examples of anything because they're outliers.

Yeah. It's, it's interesting when you see guys like him, what I never hear him geek out about is like, what's our sales model going to be or our business model. Or our customer acquisition model, like, like I would to some extent, maybe he can articulate that stuff really well, but like I would be much more, I think, impressed if he could be like, okay, like here's how we're like short-circuiting the dealership process and the car buying process and like the whole customer UX process. Like, I don't, you know, I'm not an Elon nerd, but I've never sat down and heard him talk about those things, right? He can geek out about the product and this nickel-cadmium battery, whatever, but like, Like, to me, like a great CEO and business leader, like you need to be able to geek out about all of those aspects of the business. So I'd be curious, maybe there's— this is just a public persona I'm not seeing.

Yeah, no. Um, what's interesting about that is there may be more than meets the eye because I remember, um, reading the Steve Jobs biography and what shocked me about it was like he actually— Steve Jobs, you think of him as the ultimate sort of visionary involved at a very high level. But he was super involved in like sales and operational and manufacturing, which is a side of him you just didn't see.

It's interesting how much, I mean, as core, like Steve just seemed to have really good taste on stuff, you know, it was like, like just that translated into, okay, no, no, this is going to be, this is not elegant enough for us. The sales process is not elegant or it is.

Well, I think, um, you know, Elon's the same way. And I think there's a theme there where like, You know, at the end of the day, the best marketing is a great product, is a disruptive product. Like, it provides, you know, marketing and advertising. All that stuff becomes a lot easier if you've got some customer pull, uh, and you're not force-feeding, you know, a product.

Yeah, super cool. Okay, well, that's maybe a good, a good chance because I want to hear about starting Swell. You sent me a t-shirt, by the way. It's awesome. I appreciate it. I did not wear it today, but, uh, consider to be a bad podcast host for that reason. But, um, so Swell, you know, is, is what in terms of— well, first of all, why decide to go back and do an operational role? It sounds like you don't really have to. Like, why, why get back in the arena?

Yeah, you know, it was a— it's the classic story of an itch that I eventually ended up having to scratch. Um, Swell started— you know, I've been in financial services mostly on the, you know, startup and technology side for most of my career. So, and I've worked across all the different segments, you know, housing, uh, banking, online lending, a bunch of different— so I've seen, you know, um, you know, how broken a lot of financial services is, and specifically banking. I mean, banking is a trillion-dollar industry in revenue just in the U.S. alone, yet You know, if you talk to most people on the street, they don't like their bank. They actually have kind of a dislike for their bank. And there's lots of good reasons for that. And so I'm keenly aware of all the ways in which banking is broken. And I started, actually, this is, you know, kind of ties back to the Twitter discussion. I started, um, I wrote a, uh, a Medium post actually about sort of, um, all the ways that banking is, uh, broken. The title of it was Your Margin is My Opportunity, which is the famous Bezos quote, basically talking about how these banks have— they're incredibly bloated, they don't serve customers well, yet they have insane, you know, bottom line margins. And that's going to create opportunity for fintechs and new types of banks. And so the idea kind of took on a life of its own. And, um, you know, I started talking about it with friends, and ultimately it just seemed like a, you know, for me, swell is not, as you pointed out, it's not something I had to do. In fact, you know, you could definitely make a case that I should have, you know, should be, you know, focused primarily on rock climbing right now and just enjoying life. But in some ways, like, this is like— Swell is as much for me a personal mission as it is a business. Um, this is something I'm in a unique position to try to fix. And, you know, so we're, we're swinging big here. And, you know, the basic idea is to to try to create a bank that actually helps people grow their wealth, right? So if you add— we did a survey early on at Swell, it was about 500 people, and we said— one of the questions we asked was, does your bank help you make moves with your money to get ahead? So things like reducing your debt, increasing your income, being really wise with your spend. And 99% said no, right? And so What is a bank's job? Like, if you think of it, like you step back from, from the way the industry works today, what is a bank's job if not to help you do smart things with your money? Just, just to hold it and then lend it back to you and charge you for the privilege. That's kind of what we've, we've come to expect or accept. But, you know, especially for people who are not wealthy, um, there's a huge opportunity to actually help them make what we call money moves, like just do smart things. With their money. And so that's, that's kind of the foundation of, of Swell, is, um, you know, creating a new type of banking app that helps people make smart moves with their money. And, you know, it, it provides some of the same things that traditional banks provide, you know, basic checking account and, you know, credit lines and so on, but also some very new and very different things.

Yeah. So I kind of thought about it as like, and maybe tell me if I'm characterizing this the wrong way, but it's like a neobank for consumers with like a community layer on top of it. Like, are you thinking about it that way or is it—

yeah, that's a, that's a, um, kind of simplistic way to look at it is, is, um, and, and by the way, you know, all these things are intertwined. So the original vision for Swell evolved quite a bit as I got on Twitter. And started building a following and engaging with people about— with the ideas, the vision really evolved. And, and our, our, you know, the great thing about financial services or banking specifically is it's such a big industry. What's going to happen is like we're going from one-size-fits-all products to more specialized products that meet specific needs of different types of consumers. The consumer that we're targeting, we call them Strivers, and they're people who have good income They're, um, they, they, they are willing to put in the work to get ahead. They're interested in all these wealth-building opportunities they hear about, but they don't know where to start. They don't have the financial expertise to pull off a lot of this stuff. And we happen to think it's an incredible customer segment to serve because they, they, they're willing to do their part. They want to do the right things to get ahead. They just need a little bit of help. And so we're building around that segment, and we think we, we will uniquely own that segment, which turns out to be, you know, a niche, but a very, very large niche for us to build a great business.

So a Striver, a Striver is typically how old and kind of what, what would, how would you describe like the prototypical Striver?

We describe it. I mean, we describe it more as like a psychographic than a demographic, but in general, like if you, if you look at about 5,000 people in our kind of waitlist for Swell, which is our community. And if you look at the demographics of those, they are generally, I'd say, more of a millennial-type age group. So it's kind of late 20s to 40s, but we see people up into their, their 60s. And, you know, remarkably even split between men and women. You know, there's a lot of women now who are the financial decision makers in their home. And I think those are You know, amazing people, amazing customers, but really it's, it's the, the mindset that we're, we're catering to, which is these people who, who really want to get ahead and are willing to do the work. And you might say, well, gee, isn't that everybody? Doesn't everybody in America want to get ahead with their money? And the hard truth is that's not the case. There, uh, most Americans actually don't spend any time thinking about personal finance. They actually Um, kind of actively ignore it. And so our, our customer really, you know, you, you see them on Twitter all the time, Michael. It's, it's, you know, it's these people who are really interested in real estate investing, for example, but don't have any connections and don't really understand all the, the complicated financial jargon that comes with it.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's super interesting. So, uh, lots of questions. The, um, So the track record for comfortable middle-aged people starting companies around a mission is not like— it's, it sometimes is, is set for failure, right? Like you see people who, who want to, whose vision is to build like a great business, and that's the why, the reason they're doing it, and they're passionate about the problem, but mostly they're, hopefully they're primarily passionate about building a great business. You know, how do you think about balancing that kind of risk, right, of somebody that's comfortable in life like you or me starting a company. Sometimes we can start it for the wrong reason rather than, you know, and you end up with misalignment. I don't know if I'm asking this question a really good way.

No, it's a great question. I, I get it. Yeah, but actually I'm going to challenge you and say my, my observation has been exactly the opposite. People that start businesses with the primary objective of making money generally, at least in the startup world, don't do as well As people who are starting the business because they want to scratch an itch and solve a problem. And there's always, it's a spectrum, right? There's always a little bit of both. I mean, make no mistake about it. I want to create a billion-dollar company and enjoy the financial rewards that come with that. And I think we will. I think, you know, there's, we're one of the few markets where there's, you know, it's a, there's a realistic opportunity to do that pretty quickly. Um, but I think if that's the primary focus, then you lose focus on what really drives revenue, which is having delighted customers and solving real problems. So I think if you look at like the founders that I aspire to emulate are very product-driven or problem-driven founders. They're not, they're not the Tim Cooks of the world. They're the more the Steve Jobs of the world who are, you know, trying to, trying to disrupt a market. And, uh, I view my job as like getting that initial wedge, disrupting the market. I'm definitely more of what you would call a zero-to-one type founder CEO. You know, I can do the one-to-ten thing. I've done it before, but at some point there's probably people who are, you know, who are better equipped than me to take this thing over and really focus more on the business aspects. And by the way, that's also something I have to be mindful of as a CEO. Is that I am a bit more of a zero-to-one, like visionary type CEO. And so I need to surround myself with really good operators, which is, which is what I've done at Swell. Uh, because, uh, you know, that's, that's, you know, we all have strengths and weaknesses. That's not the day-to-day detail operations is not my strength.

Yeah. What, what are your other not strengths?

Yeah. By the way, I'm a, if you, I know you don't know much about the Enneagram, but if you know, I'm an 8/7, which, uh, you know, we're not great at talking about our weaknesses. Uh, but I'd say like that, that's definitely the glaring one is that I'm definitely not a details person. I'm definitely high-level visionary. I think I'm a pretty good communicator. Um, but you know, depending on who you talk to, you know, I happen to believe that, you know, great businesses are a great idea and great execution. Some people believe, you know, it's, you know, 99, you know, 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. They're both important. But, um, for me, I, I'm, you know, I've been at this long enough. I know I've got to complement myself in, in those areas and surround myself with, with great operators. I, early in my career, I was definitely guilty of like, I think a lot of people do this. Like you try to hire people who are like you so you can all have like a, this echo chamber going, which feels really good, but it's, it turns into a disaster very rapidly. You have to have people who are not only compliment you, but are strong enough to challenge you and to say, you know, no, let's, let's like, I get it, but you know, we need to stay focused on this.

Yeah. Well, for me, I had to learn that homogeneous team thing the hard way, like, or I'd just look back and be like, why didn't this work out? It's like, oh, we had 9 idea people in the room and we got nowhere. You know, in the case, all just look like me.

Yeah. Early in my career, you know, I was kind of on the extreme of that. And I had a mentor, gosh, in one of my first startup ventures in, gosh, it would have been 1995, who gave me a big speech about, you know, square pegs in round holes. Uh, and you know, that, that it takes all types. And I took that to heart and it made a huge difference for me.

Yeah. So how does, how does Swell become that billion-dollar business? Like what's the, what's kind of your strategic path to get there over time? I know you guys, you know, you're swinging for the fences. You raised a good amount of money to pursue it last year. What is, what is the general strategy and the iteration that you see getting it to that? you know, that level of kind of Robinhood. Well, I didn't, I did, I don't want to equivocate it to Robinhood other than in size and impact, but like that kind of, that kind of idea. How does, how does it get there?

So a couple of things just right up front for anybody that's familiar with fintech, and you mentioned neobanking, so you have a little bit of familiarity. Um, one thing I want to kind of mention right up front because it's extra important given what's happened in the market over the past few weeks is. We're building Swell in a very different way from what most neobanks, or what I call Gen 1 neobanks, have done. The, the neobanks you see out there today, like Chime is the largest in the U.S., they were all about, like, they viewed it as a land grab and let's create a mass market product, you know, throw economics, you know, unit economics don't matter at this point. It's all about scale and market share. And they raised a truckload of money and acquired a bunch of customers, and now, you know, especially with the market, the recent market turn, they'll start to focus on unit profitability. Um, from day one, for a variety of reasons, we built Swell to be a unit profitable product. Like, we, we want to do great things for our customers and we want to earn, you know, build a great business around that. And so the second thing is we We're focused on a large segment, but it is a market segment. We're not trying to be mass market. We can build, you know, if you look at community banks, for example, existing traditional community banks, there's a lot of community banks out there that have a billion-dollar market cap today in the public markets, and they have 100,000 customers, 200,000 customers. One of the beautiful things about banking is it's a lucrative business. And it doesn't take millions of customers to be a very significant value, um, to the public markets. And so that's kind of our take, is, you know, we want to build, you know, call it half a million, uh, a very loyal base of half a million of these Strivers who our product is uniquely suited for. We're launching with, um, there's three components to Swell: Cash, Credit, and Compound. So Cash is our basic checking account. It's, it's, you know, similar to other checking accounts. There's some features that are, that are better, like we offer a higher APY and things like that. Um, great, it's a great experience, but it's, you know, it's kind of the, the foundational checking account. Our, our line of credit, we're offering the first line of credit that's integrated with the checking account. So for example, The reason that's interesting is there's, you know, overdraft charges are a $30-something billion industry. And, you know, in themselves, in banking, you know, when, when someone overdraws their account, the bank charges them $30 or $40. By having a line of credit tied to the checking account, you know, it just becomes a credit transaction instead of a debit transaction. So it's like one card that works two ways. We're also doing some things that will allow us— the goal is to— that customers can transfer in their credit card balances and we might whack their rate in half so they can pay off their credit faster. Um, so a lot of those like cool blocking and tackling features. And then the third piece, which is Compound, is the one that's gotten the most attention. And that's basically, um, providing, um, it's our investment— it's our spin on investing, and it's providing access to private market investment opportunities, like most notably real estate. To unaccredited investors. And we're doing this through something called a Reg A fund, which is, you know, you file with the SEC. And this is, uh, you know, our customer has a high degree of interest in participating in some of these deals that they hear people like me and you talk about on, on Twitter, but they don't have access or expertise to really participate. Um, in that market. And so the idea behind Swell Compound is to make that one-click easy. We'll partner with the best GPs out there, and Swell essentially becomes an LP. And, you know, that's even more important now. Like, we're in a market that's kind of downtrending, and so being able to invest in some of these sort of less volatile private market investments is really important.

Yeah, well, they may still be just as volatile. It's just the Pricing mechanism is not as transparent, so you don't know, you know, you don't get to open up Robinhood for the day and see what happened to your, you know, to your— yeah, well, game stocks.

So I think, you know, they, they are less volatile just in the sense that what's happened in the public markets is like the REITs are a good example where the REITs for no good reason have sort of been, you know, they get dragged down by the general market. Yet in the private market, like I've got several deals right now that are, that are being marketed and sold. And, you know, they're, they're doing great. Like, they're not, they haven't, they're not down 20% like the REITs. Um, so, so yeah, I think they are somewhat insulated. I mean, it's never perfect, right? I mean, the macro trends in the economy affect everything, but in terms of like just that volatility that we see, that some of which doesn't, some of which doesn't make any sense in terms of fundamentals, you're insulated from some of that.

So what are the challenges, especially with less sophisticated or investors or the crowd in general is like, you take any crowd and half of the crowd is going to be below average. I don't— I'm not a math expert, but I've been told that's the way it works. And that means also 10% of them are going to be in the bottom 10% of intelligence, sophistication, also problem. Like, how, how do you create like guardrails for those problem children don't come in and kind of mess up stuff or make your life a nightmare? in this, in this model?

Yeah, I think some of it is, you know, our, you know, the, by definition, like the types of customers that will be interested in what we offer at Swell, these strivers are, um, are, have sort of, you know, already proven that they, you know, they have the, I guess the biggest differentiator when I think about a striver is, is that they're, they've already proven that they're willing to do the work to, to, to kind of make financial moves to get ahead. So that already sets them apart. I mean, and then in terms of just managing, if you're talking about like managing risk and whatnot, I mean, we, we have pretty sophisticated, you know, underwriting capabilities to make sure like we, when we extend credit that, you know, we're not, you know, that, that we're managing it, you know, managing risk on that. But ultimately, I mean, what, what, what Swell is about is basically, you know, increasing access to, you know, regular working Americans. To all these things that wealthy people do every day. You know, people like myself, like there's things that, that I do every day that most Americans just don't have access to. And maybe if you're wealthy enough to have private banking that you'll get access to some of that, but even that these days is, is, you know, becoming sort of outdated. Uh, if you really want to, you know, you know, and you, you see the same folks, you know, a lot of them are online. If you want to run, you know, closer to a crowd that's on the cutting edge of, of what, what it takes to get ahead these days with your money, then that's what Swell's being built around.

Yeah, totally dig it. So in terms of the compound stuff, so y'all will offer, you know, it sounds like there's private equity, real estate private equity deals. What other sort of stuff are you going to try to expose to customers?

I mean, down the road, the sky's the limit, but for the foreseeable future, we'll be focused on real estate. I mean, that's just for, for a variety of reasons, real estate is sort of by far the obvious candidate, the best way to get started in, in private equity. You'll be able to participate essentially as, as an LP in some great real estate deals. And then where it becomes— the reason it's, uh, it gets interesting to do that as, as sort of a, almost like a, a banker placement, is that by integrating, like, let's say, a checking account, a line of credit, and a private equity investment vehicle, you can start to do really interesting things. So for example, one thing that banks don't do at all today, and it's kind of mind-blowing. So you, you know, Michael Girdley, you have money that is distributed across a bunch of different things. Like you've got businesses, you've got real estate investments, you've got stocks. Your bank doesn't really look at you as a whole person. They don't consider any of that stuff when they're looking at lending. So for a simple example of what we're— one of the things we're looking at doing is let's say you invest $20,000 in Swell Compound, um, as a, as a, you know, as in a private equity investment, then using that to cross-collateralize your line of credit. So maybe instead of paying the 18% rate you pay on your credit card today, you pay Swell an 8% rate, right? And so, you know, that's where the power is and the long-term vision for Swell is like What banks have never done is made all the pieces work together. Banks are literally sort of— when you read a business book that talks about siloed organizations, they almost always talk about banks. I mean, it's literally different products within a bank are literally separate business units that often compete with each other. That's kind of famously. And there's so much opportunity to make these things work together and do things that you like that weren't possible before.

Yeah, it's funny. We, uh, I spent, you know, I have loans with banks and stuff, so I submitted my financial statement to them and they sent me an email back like, oh, thank you, I update it twice a year. Oh, thank you. Um, is it okay if we share this with our private bank? I'm like, is it that the people right down the hall? Like, what's the big deal? Like, don't you, you know, because one of my loans is with the commercial group, another loan's with the private group. And I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard. And this is like a new bank that's only like a decade old. And I'm like, how did you guys— how'd you guys do this? This makes no sense at all.

They're sort of designed to be siloed, and it doesn't have to be that way for sure. It's a— banking is what I call a target-rich environment. It's like there are so many opportunities in banking to do things better and to build a great, great business. And, you know, we— like, Swell is one approach. There's, there's room for literally hundreds of neobanks, for example, to come to build successful businesses.

Um, so are you building the whole thing on top of one of the underlying kind of platforms for banking? I know there's like 2 or 3 banks who are just basically white label providers for banking.

Yeah.

Are you building—

great question. There's a lot of subtle differences between— in our strategy at Swell. And one of the problems with neobanking is that, um, the, the— a lot of the neobanks all use the same underlying, what they call a sponsor bank, which has the bank charter, that offer a plain vanilla set of services, which is why all the products look the same. We have a strategic one-to-one relationship with a bank who's also an equity investor in Swell, and we're building everything from scratch. It's like we're, we're thinking from first principles. We have our own tech. Swell's building its own technology platform. And our bank is truly side by side with us working to innovate and build new products. Like, we're not just trying to launch a generic set of services. That's one of the big problems in neobanking that most people don't understand is, you know, like, this app is purple, this app is yellow, this app is green, but they're all basically the same thing behind the scenes.

Super interesting. Well, I love— what I love about this idea is how the problem space is just so big. Um, and it's like, you know, a lot of times you see people pursuing businesses, you're like, I don't think you really needed to get venture capital for this. And this is one of those ideas where I'm like, you definitely need a lot of venture capital. Yeah.

Well, there's a lot of basic, like baseline overhead associated with regulatory compliance. And, you know, you have to have a, like, I need a— I can't— I couldn't build Swell with like 2 guys in a garage. You know, we've got a team, we have 12 full-time employees already and probably half a dozen more contractors, probably 5 or 10 people at our bank partner, 5 or 10 people at another strategic partner. So we've got a pretty healthy-sized team already working on this and we still feel, you know, like we're, we're like stretched from a resource standpoint. And, and really that's the— Michael, the challenge in my business, the thing that keeps— you know, you always get the question as a CEO, like, what keeps you up at night? And, you know, the honest truth is I sleep pretty darn well every night. But if I had to name something, it would be time because my business is one where my level of confidence in our ability to build a great business here is very high. But, but we know that it's going to take time to get it all figured out. There's so many unknowns and variables in our business that you only solve through iteration. And so What I— my job, you know, the first job of any CEO is to not run out of money. So my job is to make sure that my team has enough runway so that we can solve all these, these problems. Um, because we know, like, there's no question, like, is the market there? Yes. Will our products resonate? We already have lots of evidence that they will. Is the unit economic model viable? Absolutely. So it's just a matter of having the time to build all this infrastructure and get it all you know, get the operational model figured out.

Yeah, totally dig it. Okay, cool. Uh, we only have a few more minutes of your time, so thank you for doing this. Again, one of the things I wanted to probe— you're doing, you're doing a podcast. First of all, huge mistake. I could tell you as a guy on episode number 39, you may want to rethink that. Uh, but actually it's been— we're about to do the 100th episode of Acquisitions Anonymous, and you and I are recording the 39th episode of my podcast. So thank you for Being 39 is a huge number in some culture somewhere. It's very important. Anyway, um, so, but your first episode, you have a guy who I think is like, first of all, I, I'd only seen a couple times watching some of these poker shows, and I, I'm blanking on his name, but like, I was like, man, that is just a great get, you know? Like, so what is your, what is your secret like for getting somebody, you know, so strong as your first podcast?

Yeah, so it's Krish Menon is my first guest. And, uh, are you a poker player?

Uh, sometimes, yeah.

Okay, cool. So, um, poker's only a small part of his life, but so, so my idea behind the podcast is very similar to the way I approached Twitter like 3 years ago, which is honestly, I'm doing— and my podcast is called Compounding— I, I'm doing the podcast mainly for myself. These are just people that I want to sit down and talk to, and if anybody else wants to listen in and finds it interesting, that's That's gravy. So that my primary motivator is just, I think these are fascinating people. And so the basic idea behind Compounding is, um, I, I call it interviewing the most interesting people you've never heard of. There are so many people who I call undercover crushers who are out there. They don't have a presence on social media. They're just out there living a great life and they're incredibly accomplished and, um, And so I think they're just the most fascinating people to talk to because they don't, they don't normally do podcasts. In fact, we talk about in this, in my first episode with Krish, we talk about how he's kind of uncomfortable because he's never done anything like this before. He doesn't like to talk about his accomplishments. And that's exactly what I want, as you know, as the, as the show host. So like, just to give your audience a snapshot. So my, my first guest is a guy named Krish Menon. He's, uh, grew up in you know, spent part of his life in India, came to the US. He established himself at a very young age, one of the top brand strategists in the world, was a chief strategy officer for a global ad agency at age 28, went on to found his own agency, which he grew and then sold. He's a serial entrepreneur, recently had a billion-dollar cash exit on one of his deals. He's a PhD in physics from MIT. He's a high-stakes poker player. He's a huge— he travels the music festival circuit. He's just a super cool, interesting, multidimensional guy. And there's so many lessons to be learned because almost always these really interesting people, they've almost by definition taken a very non-traditional approach to building their lives. That's why they are where they are. And so there's some incredible lessons to be learned. And I have, I have a pipeline of some equally amazing guests that I'm super excited about. And I'm not gonna, you know, my goal is to do about one a month. So I'm not trying to like crank out 100 episodes in year one, just huge emphasis on quality over quantity. And the other thing I'm doing, I think that's interesting is, and I may regret this later, I'm actually flying on location to interview all these people because I want to do it in their environment. So for example, when I interviewed Krish, He was in Vegas playing some high-stakes games, and so I interviewed him in Vegas. Um, and I'm going to do that with— I'm going to try to do that with each guest. I've got a— I've got a producer who is equally excited to travel with me, and so we're kind of a mobile setup, and it's going to be really fun. And, you know, look, I've— I have low expectations. I just, you know, if— if other people find it interesting, that's— that's great. But Really, the subtext is, and the link into Swell is that really, like, the whole point of Swell at the end of the day is to help people use money to build a great life. Um, and it's, it's not money as an end in itself. And so that's, that's kind of what the compounding is about. Yeah, almost every guest that I interview will have had incredible success in business and is financially well off, but that's actually to me the least, the, the less interesting part of it. The most interesting part is You know, what kind of life have they built? Because honestly, I'm not interested in interviewing people who are just like workaholic CEOs who have, you know, work is their life and they have broken families and, and they're not healthy. And that— I'm looking for people who have had success in every area of their life.

Yeah. So how did you, how did you find him? Because he's somewhat under the radar except for being on TV. And, uh, and then how did you get him to be on the podcast?

Well, this, this particular one was, was a little bit easy because Chris is one of my best friends. So, so, uh, uh, it made it easy. And, and honestly, you know, that's one of the benefits, uh, you mentioned earlier that I'm, I'm 51. I've been in business and doing a lot of— I've run hard for like a long, long time. And I've got this collection of people that I've met over the years who are just amazing humans that for the most part don't participate in any of this social media nonsense. They have no appetite for it. And so probably the first half dozen guests will be like a Rolodex of some of my friends.

Super cool. Um, yeah, so it's one of the things, like, I'm with you in terms of why to do a podcast like this. And, you know, so I'm, I'm super, super grateful, first of all, and again, I've said it a couple times, for you doing this. So thanks for taking the time. But it's like, it's such a cool intellectual challenge to think about how to evolve it and how to like You know, I love the idea of going to like visit people on site or you go to a city and you're like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna interview the 3 coolest people in Kansas City, you know, and develop and do it in person, which I think is, is so powerful as well. So I'm excited to watch that and, and, and good luck with it. I think it'll be super fun. Um, so before we end up, one of the things like I, I did, I went back through your Twitter and found the most kind of the most popular tweets. Um, which it's, it's a shame it's not easier to do this search. You have to like basically—

that's a whole other topic, Michael.

Uh, oh man, I— by the way, Elon, I am still available to come fix Twitter for you. Just call me. Um, I'll work for Chili's gift cards. I'm happy, I'm happy to do it. I, I've, I've got a tweet thread on how to fix it. I'll do the whole thing. Anyway, one of the threads you wrote, which is super cool, is, uh, how to kick ass at everything. And which I think is such a, such, first of all, saying it that way is so you, like, I think you're just like, yeah, okay, we're going to go out and kick some ass. Well, yes, Kevin is definitely going to do that. But so like, if somebody's listening to this and they need to know Kevin's theory, the grand unified theory to kick on how to kick ass at everything, uh, what, what is, what is the way I can go out in life and kick ass at everything?

Well, first of all, Michael, I think it's safe to say you're already kicking ass. So this is, we're going to talk for for other people. And by the way, I have to say, before we wrap up, I have to say that among the insiders on Twitter, Michael Girdley is considered a thread master. And you, no, seriously, like you're, it's almost an art form and you do, you know, maybe better than anybody else. Your threads are incredible because, you know, like there's obvious things you can do. You can write threads that get engagement and like build following. But the— I'm always amazed, like, I'll see one of your threads and it's like, holy shit, this is like 56 tweets, but like 53 of them will be like stellar insights and unique insights. And I, I know as someone who, who's a content publisher on Twitter, like, how much work that takes. And so kudos to you, um, and I think it's paid off in terms of like growing your following. But, you know, keep on keeping on, man. You do a great job.

I'm running, I'm running out of original material. I'm gonna have to start stealing jokes or something. I don't know.

Oh yeah. Well, so, so anyway, to answer your question, you know, uh, one of my, one of my favorite quotes is, uh, I was listening to a podcast one time with LeBron James and, you know, you think of LeBron James as like just the epitome of like natural talent, right? Like the guy's just a physical specimen from a young age. It was clear that he was going to be an NBA star, whatever. But I was surprised, like someone basically, the interviewer on this podcast asked LeBron, they basically asked him the same question, which is like, what's the key to being, you know, a superstar? And his answer was really interesting. He said, greatness is consistency over time. And then he went on to talk about how like, you know, yeah, it's great. Like when you have an incredible night on the court and you have a triple-double, you score 50 points, whatever. That's glamorous and it gets the headlines. But what people don't see is like the greatest players show up night after night. And when they're not on the court, they're showing up for training. They're consistent. They're consistent. They don't have like— it's a lot of NBA players have a great game or a few great games in their career, but it's hard to put together, you know, a Hall of Fame career. And what that requires is consistency. So, I'm a huge— like, the, the secret to kicking ass at any— everything isn't like, you know, to be a testosterone-fueled, you know, charge forward, take the hill, because that's just not sustainable. The secret is, uh, baby steps and compounding. Like, tiny little steps forward in every area of your life and letting that compound over weeks, months, years, decades. That's, that's the key. And, um, you You know, it's easier said than done, but, you know, I think it's, that's, you know, really the key to everything in life is, you know, tiny steps forward, little bits of progress. And then you look back after a year and you're astounded at how much, how far you've, you've come.

Super cool. All right. We're definitely clipping that one. That was awesome. Super cool. Well, thanks for being here, Kevin. This is a ton of fun. And, you know, appreciate your friendship. Someday we'll meet in person when I come to Boulder. And, uh, really appreciate you spending some time. And people, where can people find out about Swell and also follow along with your journey?

Yeah, on, uh, on Twitter, I'm— my handle is @Camp4, which I grabbed back in, uh, I don't know, like 2007. And it has— that's a climbing reference. And then you can find Swell at swellmoney.com. I invite everybody to sign up for our our waitlist and get early access. And good to meet you finally, sort of face-to-face. The invitation is always open for you to come to Boulder. I'll take you up a Flatiron, expose you to the world of rock climbing, change your life. Anytime, Michael.

I am terrified of heights. I'm terrified of caves. Don't like dogs. They scare the crap out of me. Like, Levi sent me the pictures that you guys took of him way off the ground. I don't know if I could do it, man. I just don't think I have it in me.

We only grow through struggle, right? And challenge. So that means you need it more than most.

All right, man. Thanks for doing this. This is awesome.

Yeah.