John Wilson of Wilson Companies - Should you start a Conference to make money? - The Michael Girdley Show Episode 30

Hey, Michael here. Uh, welcome back to another episode of the newly rebranded Michael Girdley Show. Uh, John Wilson joined me today for episode number 30 on this particular feed. So talked about a lot of really cool stuff. This was a great conversation. Uh, talked about the Holdco conference that they're putting on in Cleveland, uh, something I would be going to but I have a family conflict. Uh, talked about different stuff around social media, uh, joining country clubs, the prospect of buying a restaurant, medical spas, uh, Akron, Ohio, and San Antonio, Texas. So lots of lots of really cool stuff in this one. I learned a lot from John. He's got a ton of energy, and I think you'll like it as much as I did. So man, I wanted to start with talking about the Holdco Conf, which by the way, I'm glad that I practiced it. Like, you nailed it.

Like, that was perfect.

Because I can now pronounce it. So, so you guys are putting this on, like, tell me what it is.

Yeah, okay. So Kelsey and I, we've been doing like the conference circuit Right. Just sort of going to all these different things. Um, and each one has its own vibe, but each one we felt like was missing the, the multi-business ownership characteristic. And that can look obviously a lot of different ways. It can look like a roll-up. It can look like, uh, like I, I know I have a few friends that own like 15 of the same franchise, right? So that's very niche. And then obviously like you'd be a great example on the total opposite spectrum of a very decentralized holdco. So lots of different types, but all these different conferences we were going to, it was either people just in small business with one or people managing, you know, like a billion-dollar fund. And there, there wasn't really a middle ground. Uh, so we thought that we've started a couple of group chats with other guys that buy, buy businesses, own multiple things, and we all seem to have about the same problems. Which I thought was really interesting.

Um, yeah, so like, what are, what are those common problems?

Most of it's leadership. Uh, like a lot of us are in the same zone, like that $20 to $50 million revenue, uh, zone. So we're trying to hire presidents for companies. Oftentimes this is the first president we've ever hired. Um, we're trying to find financing. That's been a really big one in this size, is you're— you sort of graduate from SBA, then what? Before you can get conventional financing because banks don't seem to want to touch you for a little while. Trying to think what the other issues we have are. Scaling HR. You know, if you're scaling a company, you're scaling your people. So what does that look like? How do you go from 100 to 500 employees? And what does the teams have to look like? And when you add layers of leadership, what does that have to look like? So it's been a lot of common challenges and we've been going— I've been a part of these group chats for like a year. And it's like, well, why don't we just get even more people involved, have them all out and have smart people tell us how to do it? Yeah. So I think a conference was born.

So you guys trying to make money on this conference or is it one of those like first priority is we're going to like we're going to like learn some stuff and have fun and then if we break even or make money, we're cool with it. Or is it like, are you guys trying to do this as like a real business, like Make money.

Well, we're definitely trying to make money.

So there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Yeah. So I think the model lends itself to making money. Like, I don't know how big— and by big, I mean number of attendees— a Holdco conference could ever get. It's probably not the thing where you're going to cross, you know, 1,000 attendees. So I think if you create this niche experience where you bring in really smart people and talk about interesting stuff and you charge a premium for it, then you can make money and, and learn from it. But yeah, we hope this becomes an annual thing that, uh, makes us, makes us a couple bucks. So we've, we sold 50% of the available seats in the first 30 days, which, that's awesome, to me is crazy. Like the other folks, you know, we've talked to Moses Kagan, we've talked to some of the Capital Camp folks, we've talked to, uh, the guys who put on SMBash, and they said to expect usually around 1/3 of total tickets sold in the first month. But us selling half was like, all right, like, this is, this is real. We can potentially do something interesting here.

So are you running it? Are you doing all like the logistics and stuff like that? Are you doing it internally? And to me, I think there's like, there's like the logistics logistics, and then the business building aspect of it. So like the logistics are like, venue selection, AV coordination, speaker coordination, all that stuff. And then, then there's like the second part, which is like the, the second part of it, which is like the, you know, the sponsorship generation, like the strategy aspects of it, you know, the, the stuff that you get in kind and all that stuff. So I kind of think about those as the two different, like, things you can outsource putting it together. Which of those are you guys, like, partnering with vendors on and which you're just trying to do yourself? Yeah.

So we've, I think we've looked at it. You're probably right with the way you're looking at it, but we've looked at it as 3 buckets. So who was I just talking to about this? That was really like a lot smarter than I am. Oh, Lucas. You might know this guy, Lucas Lopatin. He's running a startup incubator. You should look him up on Twitter. His whole thing is he's doing like sort of what you're doing, but in Spanish, in Latin America, specifically in Spanish. Like his whole thing is everything he writes is in Spanish because there's not a lot of content created for it anyway. So, so he and I were talking about this. And so I'm, I'm basically handling the growth side, the sales side, the sponsorships, all the pre-stuff. Kelsey is handling the content inside the, the event. So that's going to be arranging speakers, arranging topics, arranging events, that type of thing. And then the actual, I guess I'm going to go with consumer-facing, what hotels you were staying in, what venue were you staying in, who's serving food. We brought in an outside party to plan that just because it, it, that's a lot, that's a lot of details. I don't want to do that. Like, that sounds like a nightmare.

Yeah, well, I saw the ladies that the SM Bash guys had. Yeah. Putting that all together and coordinating that. And it was amazing to watch them because like they were so kind and super nice and everything was super well put together in the venue. And for those of you who don't know, SMBash was like a small business, like Twitter conference in Orlando. And, uh, you know, what was amazing to me was watching those ladies have so much fun doing all those tasks that I was like, oh my God, like I can't imagine like, like doing what they're doing and enjoying it. Like it seemed like such a drudgery and they're like, this is so much fun.

Yeah, they're getting a kick out of it. And I mean, they're like perfect. So it's the same team.

Oh, you're using them.

Okay. Yeah. So right after SMBash, we asked the guys, we're like, hey, we want to do a conference. Do you know anybody? And they're on Brandon's team. So it's Sage and Lydia and they just launched their own company. It's called Stellar Happenings. So this is what they're doing now. I assume on the side, I think they're still working for Brandon. But yeah, the SM Bash guys were generous enough to sort of link us up and yeah, we brought them on. But yeah, exactly that. They have fun picking out food, which like sounds like a nightmare to me.

Well, I mean, yeah, they were like, check out this barbecue. Do you know how many places we checked out? I was like, no, don't tell me. It sounds terrible.

Oh, venues too. They went through like 50 venues in 30 hours. —because we— they just did this last weekend. They flew in and it was like every 45 minutes they were at a new venue. And I'm like, y'all, this is wild. Like, you guys are hustling.

It's the cutest thing too. If you follow them on Twitter or I think it's on Instagram too, it's like two millennials like flying around, like taking part in themselves, like on scooters and stuff. Yeah, it's just like the most millennial thing ever. And it's a hardcore Gen Xer of like, oh my God. It's pretty funny.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

So, I mean, one thing I'm curious about this kind of conference idea and like Cody Sanchez does a conference, SMBash guys do a conference, like everybody that talks about it and maybe Cody's in a different bucket, but, you know, there's kind of this like opportunity cost idea, right? Where it's like, you know, I think Cody's charging enough to make a lot of money. I guess the Capital Camp guys are making good money, at least, at least my $9,000 charge on my credit card thinks so.

But like, Yeah.

Are you gonna be there?

Yeah, I went last year. You didn't go last year, right?

Now that was during my 'why do I go to live events' phase.

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm totally gonna be there.

I'm looking forward to seeing you. Uh, yes, I will be there. I'm excited. Um, but, um, like, how do you think about like the opportunity cost of doing one? And that's all of my kind of— I think it— I think those types of things are interesting, but you're You're talking about it like it's not going to be a big moneymaker relative to your day job. That's potentially time you could be spending buying another company, right? So what's the calculus for you?

It's a good question. So I think in general, I'm going to go back to monetizing an audience. There's only so many ways to monetize an audience. And half of them sort of gross me out. Like, I don't want to do it.

Which are the gross ones? Which are the gross ones?

I don't really want to go full bore on a course. I like— I think one or two value-add things are great, but I don't want to become like— I don't want to go to an event like Capital Camp and be the guy that sells courses. Like, that's not really the vibe that I want to be known for. Works for— works well for other people. But I don't think that'd be my thing. So I think there's some things that are generally seen as non-reputation damaging because of course, like some, whether or not you like it, courses obviously make a lot of money, but you become a person that sells courses. And I think that it can damage the personal brand that you're trying to build. So that's why I've always steered away from it. But books, conferences and maybe some version of other live events. I'm sure there's a few others. There's other ways to monetize that don't damage the personal brand. So that was one of the reasons an event was attractive to me was I thought not even damaging it, it might even help build it and help make us more of an authority on the hold code topic, which I think will be ultimately valuable. Outside of just, you know, the, um, an event that makes money.

So this is what I struggle with, and you just kind of talked about the dichotomy, right? So writing a book and selling it is okay. Like, I think you and I aren't— I, I'm, and I'm trying to discover why I feel emotionally the way I feel emotionally. Like, I find a lot of self-insight when I'm just like trying to figure out like, why do I feel that way about something? Because a lot of times it's your subconscious telling you something. So writing a book is okay, But you just expressed feeling the same way kind of about courses that I do. Like, yeah, I'm not a course guy. Yeah. And like, I mean, courses are in theory more efficient.

It would take way less, you know, a book someone might take 5 hours, a course you could do in like 45 minutes. Like, I, yeah, I agree.

So why, why do we feel that way? I don't— is it, is it because of the nature of the people that have gone into courses in the past? I mean, I can't figure it out.

I think, so I know why I feel the way I do. So one of them is a very specific tweet that Moses Kagan did once. Someone brought up selling a course and I respect Moses a lot. I think he represents himself well. I think he's a good guy. And he said, it was like, "Books are harmless, courses gross me out." And I'm like, "I'm locking that one away." I would like to be respected by Moses one day, right?

So why is there a dichotomy there?

Well, I think it's the way they get marketed. I think that's the whole thing. I don't know if you look at people that courses become the main bag, I think you lose some credibility. Cody is probably a baller. She probably built everything that she says she built, but because she sells courses, there are a ton of people who I know that don't believe that she's done any of what she says she's done. Because now, of course, it's like the Rich Dad Poor Dad thing. Like, did you really do it, or did you make most of your money selling the thing talking about what you might have done or might not have done? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you lose credibility. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, he went off the rocker. I mean, that's a little bit— that's a little bit different.

Um, yeah, I mean, the Cody thing is tough because, um, I've— she's coming on a podcast with us in the future, but like You know, I feel for her because I have seen firsthand the way women get treated on the internet, especially on male-dominated platforms. So like, I wonder how much of that kind of juvenile behavior that gets pointed at her is because she's a, you know, a good-looking younger woman. Like, good luck getting respect, right?

Like, yeah, she's got the deck stacked. She has the deck stacked for sure.

So many neckbeards there. Um, and kudos to her for just like muting the haters. Yeah, like, I think it's pretty good. Uh, meanwhile, I take a deep breath and write nice things to them, and then, then, yeah, whatever. Um, but yeah, so yeah, maybe, and it's what you're saying, it just comes down to the way they're sold. That's why it feels yucky.

Yeah, if I could come up with a way, like, the course model is sweet, so yeah, I hope Holdco Conf is $2,995 a ticket for the early bird, right? And it was probably the coolest month of my life getting random notifications throughout the day that a $3,000 ticket just sold. So I'm sitting here like, holy shit, like what else could we possibly do that looks anything like this? And the easiest answer is, oh my God, you just go like create and sell a course. So I don't know how to market it to make it— I guess I'm not opposed to the course. It's— I'm opposed to having to market myself in the way that other course makers market themselves. I don't want to do that.

Yeah, well, they're always shilling their course like that. Yeah, it feels like they're— it feels like you're, you're on Twitter and you succeed on Twitter by being your real self and bringing your whole self. And that's, that's something, first of all, most people in my generation just have a horrible time getting their head around. Like the number of times I talk to other 47-year-olds and they're like, I can't believe you say those things on the internet. I'm like, just get over it, man. Like, you gotta wake up and change. Yeah. Um, but like, so it becomes like this demeaning thing almost if you're just like shilling your stuff directly at the end of every thread. You're like, hey, sign up for my, you know, $500 course and download it. And you have to do that if you're going to convert. There's just no other options. And maybe that's just the yucky part about it. And then you—

Well, I think he's done a good job because he dropped his course and it was very successful. I think in the first couple of days, that was a year ago.

He has 2, he has 3 now, I think, 3 courses. Yeah.

Well, I think he does a good job because frankly, I almost never hear about his courses, which is great because I don't want to hear about his courses.

The Twitter algo is pretty good about hiding them from us, by the way. Okay. Okay. His page, I'm like, oh, here's— he's talking about his course. Twitter knows I don't like the word course, so it doesn't show them to me.

Yeah, I mean, that, that must be it. But like, yeah, he, he's had some success with it, and I almost never hear about it versus other people I have to hear about it way too much. And he's also—

I, I like the way he's selling them too. Like, he did a webinar like the other day where he's like, look, I'm gonna just come on and I'm gonna give you a taste of what my course is like, and it's gonna be free. Ask any questions you want, and then that'll be it. And I thought I thought that was a cool way of selling them to one where I'd be like, okay, like, this is cool. Yeah. There's the second part also, which is coming back to this opportunity cost question, right? Like, at what point does translating your feed from something that is, you know, totally pure, like not trying to sell things to your audience, into one where you sell this one thing, at what point does that cost you more than just the serendipity and like overall, like karma of the universe paying you back. And like, you know, I've looked at the economics. I'm like, well, you know, that's like, that's, you know, Tesla money if you do it like a year. But at the same time, like, how much does it cost me if I go down that path? And frankly, the other part, like, I just like the prospect. I've written books before. And like, like, frankly, like I, when I was doing the books back in the early 2000s, I would type so much that I had to get on anti-inflammatories to keep my wrist. Oh wow. Wrist from having problems. Because I would go, well, here's, here's basically my job in 2000. I was the only product manager for like a $300 million product. So that means I was supporting like 2,000 salespeople by myself. And so I would write like 2,500 to 3,000 emails a month. Like that's all I did all day was answer people's questions. And then I would go home at night and I would work on writing a book. And like my wrist started to hurt so much from tendinitis that I had to get, uh, I had to get, uh, drugs. Yeah. To, um, cut down on the anti-inflammatories. And I'm 24, like, I don't know. Um, anyway, it turned out I was taking Vioxx, which is like an ADHD and anti-inflammatory medicine and also is no longer sold because it was killing people. So, okay. So the only way I got through like writing a book was like taking this, the, this is the point of my story. The only way I got through writing a book was because I was basically taking drugs to where I was mentally deranged enough to be able to focus uninterrupted for 3 or 4 hours writing paragraph after paragraph of stuff out of my brain. And anyway, that's the other part. Like, I just don't— the prospect of sitting down and focusing on one thing for that long period of time, like, I envy the people that can do it, but at this point in life, it just doesn't seem like fun. Like, it's a lot horrible. It's a horrible way to spend a couple of months.

I think I liked the live event thing. I don't know why I like that better than a course, because in some ways it looks pretty similar. But there's some folks that I know that take that model into— what do they call— masterminds. So that could be a way to do it. It would still be live in person. So it is, it is literally more inconvenient because you have to physically get together. Uh, but for some reason that like get-together makes more sense to me. I don't know. That'd be, that'd be something.

Yeah. I don't think that's, that does not feel yucky at all. Does that feel good? Yeah. All right. So I want to switch topics a little bit unless you want to keep talking about Holdco Conf.

I'm good. Let's do it. Divvy it up. All right.

So you talked about, you went out and asked on Twitter yesterday, how many people are members of a country club?

Oh my God. That blew, that freaking blew up.

Why were you asking about that?

Actually, hold on. Yeah, I'm going to answer this, but first, are you a member of a country club? Uh, no. Okay, why not?

Uh, none of the activities there are really fun to me. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't play golf, I don't play tennis, I don't like going to bars. Um, you know, I don't like going to big— I don't like cocktail parties. It's like everything that they do is, um is the opposite of things, activities that I find enjoyable. So I don't join one.

That's a good reason. Yeah. So I'm not a participant either. Yeah. So what happened was, so our country, our local country clubs, there's like 3 or 4 and they're like the full thing, golf, tennis, the whole whammy. And I have never— I got married at one of them, but besides that, and like prom, but besides that, I've never gone to a country club. There's almost no reason to, like, like you, that, uh, this is not really the stuff I do. And I've always assumed that it was primarily a boomer activity, like they have not— the average age, I think you're a junior member if you're under 50. Like it's kind of crazy at some of these, which I would imagine like young kids and all that stuff, you'd think that, you know. Yeah. So, okay.

So I'm like, okay, as the second, as the second oldest person that I work with, I think this is great.

That sounds great. Yeah. You have to be a junior member. You're a junior member. You even get to pay less in fees. So, so I was like, yeah, okay, this, this probably isn't a thing. You know, I'm like 30. Probably not my bag. I'll check back in 20 years. So I get invited to a lunch in a week or two by a guy who's like 33, and he invites me to lunch at one of the local country clubs. And I'm like, well, hold on. And he's doing interesting shit. So that's the other part. The one thing I always wondered about country clubs is do people actually do interesting stuff there? Are they, are they doing deals? Or like, where locally can I talk to other people buying companies? Because I, I know people all around the states now buying companies. I know like 3 people in Akron.

Um, well, it's— do you consider day drinking to be an interesting activity? That's the—

no, no, not, not particularly. But I get invited to this lunch at this country club, and the guy's like 33, and I'm like, oh my God, all right. Apparently young people in Akron are, who are doing deals, like he's buying companies, he's rolling up manufacturing all around the states. Really interesting guy. So I was like, shit. I mean, maybe like, maybe I'm sleeping on country clubs. I don't know. Like, what am I missing? So I threw out the question and the response was hilarious. I mean, we got like 200 responses on that. A lot of them were entertaining. Like most of I would say half of the ones that said no, I don't belong, they made some general— some generalizing comments about the attitudes of country clubs. So that was kind of funny, just like clearly the bad reputation that country clubs have. Um, and then nearly all of the yeses like to play golf, which, yeah, I guess that makes sense. But I've honestly— I've always thought of country clubs as like a social thing, not like a golf thing, right?

So yeah, I think the version of the country club which, which I have— we don't have here in San Antonio, it's just not the population for it. But I would love a very expensive like version of Soho House where it's like only people that do cool shit. Yeah. Um, like I would definitely sign up for that because that's an activity I like. You want to know what I like to do? Sit around and talk about interesting stuff. Well, yeah, like interesting people are going to do that. So I would do that. But also, if there was a country club that like did the 5 or 6 activities that I really like, like, and unfortunately country clubs like have none of those.

What are those activities?

Um, uh, road cycling, mountain biking, CrossFitting, yoga, hiking, skiing, and business. Things I like to do. And evidently write shit on Twitter. That's my job. Yeah, that's what I do.

Yeah.

Yeah, um, I don't have to join a club to do any of those things.

So Reg brought up, uh, Soho House in basically the same response. He's like, yeah, I wish, I wish we had this here. I, I honestly never heard of it, you know, little town Akron, it's never crossed my radar. Um, but I agree, like, it looks, it looks dope. And now I just, I, I almost want to do a little bit of what you've done. You call it the baller office, right? So I sort of want to do a baller office slash city club thing here because there are other— apparently there's other young people doing deals, doing interesting stuff in Akron and Cleveland. And I just want to get to know them because, again, I know people all over the country doing interesting stuff, but it feels very weird that I don't know hardly anyone doing deals in Northeast Ohio. There's a lot of them. I just don't know them. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, I mean, it's interesting that you say that there's a lot of them because I mean, I feel like realistically the further you get outside of the major metros, the lower that absolute number of people gets. And then the, the smaller their percentage gets. I mean, just reality, like Youngstown, the town near you where my wife grew up, like there's a few people doing stuff, but not, not at the same ratio as Boston or San Francisco. And I think San Antonio is that way too. There's some people doing interesting stuff here and I'm, But the ratio is so low that I'm still kind of surprised when somebody's like, I'm doing something really interesting. I'm like, oh really? Like, I'm kind of shocked. Where? Like, where are you guys here? Yeah. So maybe this ties into your idea of what you really don't want is a country club. You really want like— and your idea of a restaurant, like, you— because you're asking like you want to buy a restaurant. It's almost like you almost want like this Soho house for ballers. That's what you want.

Yeah, I, I do. And I pitched this idea to a friend.

Anyway, I pitched, I pitched doing this exact idea to a buddy and he's like, why would I do that? I was like, because it's awesome. Like, like, you should totally have this. I'll join. You know, it's like, you know, like a smoking lounge where there's no smoking and then there's an open bar and like people can go there. Right. And it's a— yeah. And then you could have offices in the back. This is what you need to make.

I— yeah, I mean, I think so too. We have— so one of my businesses is moving and I own the property. That we're moving out of. So I'm sitting, I'm sitting here like, I think I'm going to build a baller office, and I think I'm going to add some cool shit to it because I want to go somewhere and just like hang out. Yeah, I want to own it because I like to own stuff, and I want to meet, you know, other people doing cool stuff.

Are you going to serve food and liquor and stuff?

I, I think so. I don't know about food, but I, I think liquor, or maybe like soft foods, like whatever I don't need a full kitchen for.

Right. Okay. I like the idea. You should totally do it. Is your office in a cool place or no? No, that's the—

that is the biggest downside. It's so— it's in, um, so this is— how do I want to put this? We're like 1,000 feet away from a cool place. Yeah, it's not very big. No, it's not. Yeah. So, so I'm deciding how to handle that part. But yeah, I think I reread your, your baller office thing the other day and like I was like, oh my gosh, I have all these things. And then the last one was like, make sure it's in a cool spot. I'm like, shit. Yeah, yeah.

Every time I tell people where we have it, they're like, that is amazing. That's great. Because you can like, you can walk out of the office, you can do a call on, you know, walking through the park. There's— I have a picture. There's a little tiny miniature train. That goes in front of the office, all that stuff just makes a huge difference to people being compelled to want to be there. And then the icing on the cake is just like, oh, this is a handpicked group of people that I can be exclusively part of. All that together is that kind of flywheel of making the thing successful. How'd you fill it? Just went on Twitter, said, hey, we have spaces. We filled 2 spaces that way. Went and talked to friends because invariably we know people that are looking or interested in something like that and just like, "Hey, are you interested?" And that's how it just has been 100% occupied the whole time.

And it's coworking style, right? You can rent an office, there's no lease, month to month, or is it longer term?

Yeah. So the way we have it structured, so we don't own the property. When we went out to go look at properties, buying one was absurdly expensive. And then, you know, we realized we could rent one and run an experiment there really easily. So we rent, we rented the space. It actually had 5 offices and then 2 like open cubicles. So we negotiate the land, negotiated with the landlord to turn it into 7 offices total. So took the 2 cubicles and enclosed them. And those are like interior offices with no windows. So you rent an entire office for the month and it's month to month. And then My partner Mike and I are the master lessees, so we take all the vacancy risk and then everybody just gives us 30 days notice if they're going to leave. And yeah, you know, they pay us and we pay rent too to, to cover everything. So we treat ourselves both as tenants and sublandlords, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's cool. I'm pretty into that. Like, how much does it gross a month?

We end up rent, let's say, just round numbers. Rent and costs are like $6,000. And then on top of that is like, we're with our own rent, we're at like $7,200 or so. It's a— do you make money off of it? Uh, we lost money last year. Hopefully we'll make that up this year. So it's in kind of bucket 2 of ventures, which is the benefits of this are non-monetary. So, but my goal is not to lose money. Yeah. So that's where we're at on the whole thing. So with the excess coming through, the other thing we do is, you know, you want that flywheel of the space being so awesome that great people come in and are willing to pay market rent, and then that flywheel keeps going. And so like whenever somebody asks for something, we're just like, oh, you want like a $500 coffee machine? Like, we— you want a water purifier for the water for the coffee machine? You want a like $75 a month coffee subscription for the office. By the way, our coffee is awesome. Like, we just do it. So we just make the space better and plow the money back in. But the goal is not to lose money. I think that's, that's a good goal to have.

Yeah, it's a good goal. So I'm going to ask you the same question you asked me about the conference. This is a small activity, like it's, it's an interesting activity, but it's a small one. So how do you, how do you think about opportunity costs when you're working on small projects like that. Yeah.

Well, I think people, I think there, there's two things. People underestimate the ancillary kind of value of things like the second order effects. So like the network you're going to get from something like that. Like people underestimate like how much that helps or the street cred that you're going to get from having that platform or the brand. Yeah. Did I sound very boomer there? Sorry.

No, no, I loved it. I was like, yeah.

Uh, yeah, it's fine. I almost, I almost wrote the word clout with a K on Twitter yesterday. I was like, I gotta stop doing that. Like, hey kids, hey kids. Um, on a side note, then I want to come back to your question. I was saying, I was talking to my business coach yesterday and he's like, Girdley, how many, how many people older than you do you spend time with every day? I was like, I think the oldest people I work closely with are like 5 years older than me. Like just barely boomers. And, uh, he's like, you need to go figure out how to hang out with some 70-year-olds. I was like, some good coaching. So country club, I was like, oh great, just what I don't need, just what I don't need. Um, so anyway, okay, so back to your question about opportunity cost of a side project like that. So people underestimate the value that they get from doing random stuff, right? And that's kind of like the Twitter thesis, like people way underestimate the serendipity of publishing content on there and all that kind of stuff. The, the second thing is I think people way underestimate how much, like, you, they basically look at something like that and they say, okay, here's how much time and money it's costing me. Like, that's a pretty straightforward, easy analysis. What they're not really, really recognizing when they think of something like that is there's a big opportunity cost of personal and mental energy, right? So that creative time that you're spending on Holdco Conf or Um, thinking about, you know, aspects of how to make that better. Like, you only, in my opinion, have a finite amount of, like, work energy that you can deploy each week, right? In that battery that you have in your body. And that is a bigger cost than what most people think. So even though something might be, for example, 5% of your time and maybe break even for you, the amount of mental energy you're spending in it, people really underestimate how much that's costing them. So, you know, when I hear about stuff like this, I'm like, oh, don't just reflect on like how much like the very, like very clear KPIs of this thing are like money and other stuff you could be working, but also how much of your finite, most finite resources, which is your mental energy and your creative energy, are you sapping by working on something that may or may not be, you know, below kind of your bar. I'm going very Chamath here in terms of below your bar of of things that, you know, make sense or don't make sense. So those are two things I think about it. Look, in the end, like, they're doing something like that, I think, avoids the biggest mistake of all, which is just not doing stuff. Like, much better to be erring on the side of just going out and making stuff happen and then quitting it when it doesn't work. Like, I think that's great. So that'd be my two cents on it. Like, go stir some shit up and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah, I've always probably leaned— my outward persona is we roll up home service companies, right? That's like what we're known for. But we are constantly experimenting with a bunch of other stuff. And I ask myself the same question all the time, which is, is this worth my time? And, and even if it's not worth my time, is it just gonna be fun? Because a lot of times things are not worth my time, but it's kind of fun. Like right now, I'm— we're thinking about launching a home service company that I don't need, I don't want, and it's going to complicate my life, but it would make really interesting content. And then I think I'm just going to give it away to somebody after like half a year just to sort of see if I can do it. Um, but I think that'd be interesting. But like, is it a good use of my time? Probably not. Yeah, but it'd be fun. Yeah.

It's one of the challenges that— I mean, I think you're getting there in life, right? You're starting to scale your business, you're starting to scale your aspirations as well. And it's a continual battle to be like, oh, like I shouldn't be doing this, right? Or this is just not interesting to me. And the frustrating thing about it in parallel is almost like the more experience you develop and the more resources you develop, the more those kind of just like easy money, but costly in mental energy or time kind of things come at you, right? And it's courses are one of those things where it's just like, oh yeah. You know, okay, this could be a good amount of money to you 15 years ago, but to you today, it's a net negative based on your hourly wage, right? And that's one of the things like my business coach has really, you know, focused me on is like, okay, define what your hourly hour is worth. And then like, figure out like, are you working on something that is worth more or less or doesn't count towards that bucket, right? Which is fun. Like you're doing something that's fun. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's a continual battle. It's like hard because I'm like, oh, look at that free money.

I, I went, we went through the same thing with like Holdco Conf where it's like, okay, if we, if we net out $140,000 or $150,000 total, split it between the partners, um, how much time did I actually put in it? What, what was my true hourly? And what was the, you know, why am I focusing on this, which is a six-figure business, which again, yeah, 10 years ago that would've been amazing. But over here, we have a very large company that needs other— needs more activity. But I don't know, I still think the content specifically, the podcast, the newsletter, all this random stuff that we're doing in our media, one, it gives me a ton of energy. I just like it. I think it's fun. It's creative. It's an outlet. And also it is, we're like taking most of those lessons that we've learned, which previously I did not understand media. I didn't understand content distribution. I didn't understand any of that. And we're taking all of those lessons learned and slamming them right back into our primary companies. So we're going onto this, we have this new campaign launching, um, right now, cause we're like, we're in integration mode. So we're combining a couple of brands. It's a whole thing. And we're using basically all the lessons that we learned from distributing the podcast and newsletter and growing our media into this, which is going to be awesome. So I'm finding that too, that we're just, we're getting benefits for the actual business out of these random curiosities that I'm following. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cool. So yeah, I think that what you're hitting on is what I've observed. And when people ask me like, why do you invest time in producing content or like being out there and stuff. It's because it like, it's an accelerator or like a lubricant to the flywheel, right? Of what you do every day. And that's like, sometimes you do things better. Sometimes like somebody comes in and helps you. You didn't know you needed help. Like all of that is this kind of thing. The second thing that I wanted to tell you is we had the Johnny Robinson, the Squeegee God, on the podcast. We recorded, recorded, I think yesterday, the day before. But he started talking about how like, like those businesses, those home services businesses, especially as you start to get the first, second, or third, like overall ranking on, on Google reviews or Yelp, like he's like, yeah, once you're there and you have a number of reviews, it becomes like a license to print money. I was like, that's really interesting. Because I, you know, what I think is the interesting kind of side effect of that is historically, like home services business like yours, like they didn't necessarily see economies of scale, right? They started to see diseconomies of scale because it was harder to run their business or their employees would leave and compete with them, all that kind of stuff. But like the, the days of that dynamic feel like they're changing with the digitization of how the customers are coming in. Yeah. And it won't surprise me if you see more and more kind of very smart operators like you that are tech savvy and can go lock up a first or second spot. And creating kind of these bigger businesses where you actually do have economies of scale just because of the way customers are found.

Yeah, I buy that. I totally agree. And I think, um, I've talked a lot about this. I don't remember where, but I know we've talked a lot about it. And it's exactly what you described. That used to be the common story where you get to a certain size and these businesses capped out because the techs would leave. They would go start up their own thing and they would make more money. That doesn't happen anymore. Like, it honestly just doesn't happen. And there's a lot of reasons for it. I think the biggest one, aside from digital, how do you actually grow the business? Like, some of that stuff got easier, but the really big change is compensation. These techs, they used to leave and go make more money, but now, like, they don't have to do that. They can just make more money working for a company. With no risk of launching a company. You know, plumbing, HVAC techs, electricians, being a talented technician, that's a license to print money too. You can go anywhere, make a god-awful amount of money, like six figures often in your 20s with a few years of experience, no college debt. And so why go through the hassle of starting a business? You can just make a lot for an existing company. And that dynamic didn't exist a decade ago.

That's because they are able to make more money because you guys are paying them more or because it's harder to start a business or both?

I think both. So I think there's a lot of factors there, but if we look at the industry in general, It was formally a bunch of technicians that became owners, and then those owners grew their businesses. Average business size of maybe 10 to 15 people, $3 to $4 million in revenue. That was the normal business size around Akron, Cleveland. And most of the places, I'm sure it was a little bit bigger in Dallas, but not significantly. A $20 million home service company a decade ago was like Oh my God, that's insane. Whereas now there's, you know, billion-dollar home service companies. So a lot of the boomers are starting to retire. The companies are getting sold, they're getting combined. So just companies are becoming bigger in general. So more market share, higher Google reviews, and frankly, just more money to spend on advertising. Like we spend more in advertising a month than some of our competitors make in a year, like top-line revenue. Uh, especially these starting guys, like, I don't even know how you begin to compete against someone like us. We're just too big. Um, and that same thing didn't exist. So, so definitely the marketing thing, the reviews, all that stuff. Uh, but the— just the drain of technicians, you know. In 2009, the industry went belly up with the housing market And there was just a huge drain of talent because they went to find maintenance jobs or they retired or whatever it was, but they got out of the industry because there was no jobs. So now a decade later, we're like, hey, you know, where's all the talent? It's like it left a decade ago when there was no jobs. So, you know, maybe we have half of the talent that we had 10 years ago currently in the industry. So businesses are able to charge more because there's just less. We have higher market share. So instead of the, you know, hundreds of plumbing companies in your area, maybe there's 4 giant ones. That's, that's what it is around here. We're, we're the second largest in Akron and Cleveland. Yeah. So I think there's a lot going on there. There's a lot to unpack, but a lot of it's aging workforce, people not coming in. 2009 really broke the industry. People just left. Yeah. Um, and then you can, you combine boomers retiring and just a lot of money pouring in for consolidation, and you sort of get this perfect storm of we need the techs. Um, they can go make a lot of money at any of these other big shops, so why go start your own company? Why take the risk?

So do you think the window is still open to keep rolling up those, those businesses, or do you think that PE and folks like that have come in enough now that there's Because I know like Xavier and his company, like Enduring Ventures, are like rolling up and buying, you know, plumbing and HVAC companies. Like, is that, is that window, has that closed or do you think it's continued to open? And how do you think about that opportunity? I think about it often.

I think, I think the window is, if it's not closed on what I would say is like a sustainable sized business. so a million in earnings and up. It's closing in the next couple months. You know, if someone was going to sell, they would've sold in the last 2 years since private equity got this active. And even before private equity got as, like, totally nuts as they are right now, they've still been in the space since, like, 2015. You know, there's a couple of billion-dollar roll-ups out there, like Wrench Group and ARS has been buying up like crazy. So there's probably 3 or 4 sort of billion-dollar roll-ups and then a bunch of them getting close. So if you were big and you were close to retirement, you would've already sold or you're about to sell. There's still a lot of room in the subscale market, which is where we tend to shop. So 250 to 750 in earnings. Um, there's just a lot of those companies, just a lot of them. And, and they're— a lot of those owners are still like, you know, retiring every day. So if you're willing to deal with the mess of small companies— the problem— that's the problem.

That's why the big shops aren't buying them.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, I'm sure you've— if you've seen them or you've talked— I've talked about them on Acquisitions Anonymous. Uh, but yeah, these tiny companies, they have no process, they have no leadership, they're very used to owner day-to-day. So it's a, it's a, it's a mess. Very small level of professionalism.

I mean, you see that also in other businesses, right? Like one thing I learned was how the difference between a sub-$1 million revenue software company is radically different than a sub-$2 million one. And that's radically different than a sub-$3.5 million one. Yeah. Like there's different things that have changed at each of those. And like, I think the market, at least in software, way underpenalizes the tiny ones, right? Because like sub-$2 million in top-line revenue for software, it basically becomes impossible to hire professional management. Like, you're just not big enough. You have, you have to hire you. You at the same time, you can't afford somebody that's like really, really good. And because those, they're going to cost you a lot, but you can't pay one person 15 or 20% of your top-line revenue to be that good. Right. So you end up with this like weird, this weird Venn diagram where like the circle of who you can hire and who you need is like they can't match. When they're too small. Yeah. And it becomes really painful. And we have the same issue.

Uh, yeah. You know, but for us it's like 1.5, 3, and 5. So those are the different— right. Because at each of those plateaus, you know, there's a different level of leadership, different level of earnings. But yeah, same thing.

Running a software company is harder than running a plumbing company. Like, do you need— is it harder to hire for that, like, senior level role? And I'm not trying to insult you with this, but I'm just like, oh, I honestly don't know. Yeah, it's a person that costs $80 grand equivalent to a $150 grand person in the software world, just because, you know, they're inflated salaries in that tech business.

Yeah, it seems like if I had to pick one, you know, a little partial here, but I think the advantage of— I would say software is harder, and that's from never being in software. Just because I think, you know, so, so my opinion is super valuable. Yeah. But the just having to compete with the level of, like, we have to compete, we have to compete for techs and that it's totally real. But labor does exist in the marketplace. We can afford it and we can also train it relatively easily. And I don't think that software has any of those three advantages. Like, there doesn't seem to hardly be any labor, it's really hard to afford, and I don't know how to train. And it may be boot camps, but those don't seem to be super effective.

Yeah, well, I think you're talking about a lot of the very technical people. Um, you know, there's, there's a bunch of other non-engineering roles that are super hard to come by, right? The number of people that have been CEOs of software companies or general managers for software products, like there's not enough of those people either. Like, you can't find them. Product managers, sales engineers, like, they just don't exist. They're just— they're everything. Everything top to bottom has salespeople. Everything top to bottom has a labor shortage in those things. But yeah, I mean, I think the engineer, like, the engineer to tech equivalent is for sure, you know, I totally dig that and what you're saying. But like, I was also talking about like the GM of one of your businesses to the equivalent size of a GM of a software product. Like, like, I, you know, I'm curious. I don't know, maybe I should own a plumbing company. I'll get it.

I'll come back and report. Yeah, that one, one, you should just, it'd be, you know, good content, right? But on the leadership side, I would say that we basically have the same struggle. Because leadership, especially with the size we're buying, to effectively run these companies, you have to hire rock stars, and there's not many of them in the industry and the ones that are in the industry. They're— if someone's been a GM or a CEO of a— man, how do I want to say this? The industry has changed so rapidly that if you were a GM 5 years ago in a plumbing or HVAC business, that is irrelevant to anything that's going on in this industry right now. Like the software has changed, like the generations of techs, like, you know, now it's Millennial is average in our company. So, um, it's just a different thing. So I— we can't find them. I don't know if they exist, but we can't find them. We have to grow our own.

Yeah, I don't know the right answer. I do know part of the problem is there's not enough Gen Xers around. That's— as a Gen Xer, that's what I think.

Yeah, I do. It's easily, easily the biggest problem that we're facing.

I used to When I, I mean, I remember being like 5 years ago, I was 42 and I'd be like, okay, you know what I really need? I need like a mid, a mid-career professional here. Somebody that's like got 20 years of experience, has led some people and they're just ready to take the next step. And you go out and you either got a 32-year-old millennial or a 62-year-old boomer. Those are the only people out on the market. Um, because all the, the middle-aged people, like there just weren't that many of us, like Yeah, there weren't that many born and there aren't that many in the workforce. Like, they just aren't out there.

I've never thought about that, but we have the same problem. So we've been hiring for, um, like bigger roles in the company recently. We had the same issue actually. We, we just didn't get the 30-year-olds. Uh, it was like a director of finance, controller. We're hiring GMs, and the only people that are showing up to interviews are— they're like, they're on they're on sort of the last mile of their career. And it's not meant to be mean, but many of them are in their 60s, um, which is great, but like, I, I don't think you would thrive in this environment. So yeah, we've really struggled. I assumed that was just Akron, so I'm glad to know that it's not just Akron.

Uh, at least here in flyover America, it's the same thing, you know. And I've done nationwide searches for roles, and you end up with a very barbell-shaped distribution. You know, I was born in 19— 75, which is the lowest birth rate year, uh, since World War II. So that's why there are not a lot of 47-year-olds running around comparatively. You're like, where are they? It's like, there's just not that many of us. Like, we're, you know, we're, we're shrunk down as a percentage relative to the younger and older generation. Pretty fascinating.

That is really—

I just want to ask you about one other thing, which, uh, is med spas. And hopefully we can talk about med spas because a couple things happened. Heather from Live Oak came on our podcast and I asked her what was hot in M&A right now, and she said med spas. Med spas did great in COVID. And then so you asked about med spas. So what's, what's your deal with med spas? You're going to open up a med spa? Should I get my brows waxed at your med spa or how does that work?

Yeah. Yes to both. Yes to both. I just think that spas are dope. All right. So if we're looking— if we're looking at like, I have a, I have a type of business that I like, and it's not just ones that deal with poop. They, they tend to be like, what is pretty durable? What is price elastic? Like, what can we just raise prices on? People are going to keep doing. And what is going to handle well in nearly any economic environment. Yeah, this is where I usually lose people with med spas is that last one. But so like all of our businesses, that, that was really most of why I started buying more plumbing companies was I was like, if you buy service, you know, toilets always need to flush and you always need hot water and like septic, like it has to get pumped. There's no option. The county will shut your house down. So we really like businesses that do well in bad environments. So, uh, I've thought about a lot of things over the years that fit that mold. Like hair cutting, I thought would be sweet. And then, you know, COVID sort of proved that wrong, I guess. But besides that, like, you know, hair cutting, I always liked, uh, low average ticket though, so I didn't like that part. But med spas seem to be that magic. Like, hey, if you're getting Botox, like, you don't stop getting Botox. Like, that, that is a one-way street. And we're more on Zoom than ever. We're more on social media than ever. Our faces are more like in a microscope than, than ever before. Like, beauty businesses are only going to continue to get better. And, and, and back to the Botox or waxing or whatever, that's a one-way street. Like, I know plenty of people that are in their 30s, they've started Botox because apparently that's the time to start it. And they're not going to stop until they're 80 and they're going to sacrifice to keep that Botox going because that's their confidence. That's how they look. That's like, it matters. It's real. So yeah, I'm passionate about med spas. I think they're sweet.

It sounds awesome. So when are you going to open one?

Well, so my, when I first like threw it up on Twitter, my buddy actually is, uh, he's my cousin. And he lives down in San Antonio, and I connected with you, and I appreciated the connections you gave me. So his wife is a— oh, what is it? Physician's assistant? It's the thing where you can still do your own practice. That might be the wrong term, so I'm really sorry for all the medical people listening to this. I don't know how it works, but it's like you're right under a doctor, you can open your own practice, blah, blah, blah. So she, she's getting ready to open her own thing. She's been working at med spas for like 5 or 6 years and like she's taken her, she's taken her, taken her talents to her own thing. So I'm like, hell yeah, this is great. I want to watch this work and then I'm going to try to figure out how to do it up here. I have to find that physician's assistant. Like, do you know what the title is for this role?

For an aesthetician?

No, it's like a nurse— oh, nurse practitioner, maybe that's it. I, I don't remember. Okay, anyways, you have to have a specific— it's either a doctor or this specific medical designation, and then you can go, you know, run a med spa, I guess. Uh, so I have to find one of those around here.

I think it's— yeah, who can operate a med spa? Physicians, physician's assistants, registered nurses, and licensed aestheticians. Okay, almost every service at a med spa. There's, there's the list. She manages the medical spa but is not required to be on site. Yeah.

So yeah, med spas I just think are really interesting. It's super high average ticket, super high gross profits. It's a one-way street. And if you cash pay, yeah, you don't have to deal with insurance. Super sticky customers. Like, you know, if someone's going to stick a needle or allow you to stick a needle in their head, they're probably going to continue allowing that same person to put a needle in their head. I wouldn't want to switch that. Um, like, you know, so yeah, I just like it. I like it a lot. Uh, yeah, so that's me and MedSpa. So I just have to find a physician's assistant. So if you're listening, located in Akron and Cleveland, and are okay with me having control, like dictator-level control ownership over a company that you help me run, then let's do this.

That's awesome. All right, that's a good, that's a good ask. And then, uh, so when is the Holdco Conf? You have— what's the exact date for that?

It is July 24th to the 26th.

It's definitely July because it's during my family reunion, which is why I can't go. But, um, I, I look forward to going to the 2.0 version when you guys move it to a more sane month.

Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'll, um I think we want to keep it in Cleveland. So let me give you a quick—

I think that's great. Don't put it in Austin like everybody else is doing. Yeah. Dear Lord, I don't need to go there again.

I kind of like what Brent does. I think it's hilarious. He's like, hey, I'm going to throw a really good party and I'm going to force you to come to the middle of absolutely nowhere. And you and I both know you're going to come. So I'm hoping to do the same thing. Yeah.

You know, and it's part of the genius of conferences, right? Is that you know, you charge more and the attendees get better, right? Oh yeah. I've been invited to conferences before and they're like, okay, it'll be $800. I'm like, I'm not coming. It's too cheap. Yeah. Like, are you kidding me? It's too cheap. I'm like, yes. Like, yeah. Or I've been asked to like the local business journal one time asked me to join like a peer group and they're like, okay, well, we're going to make it very affordable. It's $100 a month. And I'm like, I'm not being part of that. Like, not coming out. Waste of time. Because because at this point in life, like, I know enough people. I don't need to know more people that can afford $100 a month. I need to know more people who are off doing cool stuff, and those are people that can afford something more. That's a very elitist way of describing it, but at a certain point, that's just the truth of life, right?

No, I totally agree. Like, we took the same model with Holdco. We didn't feel like we could launch straight off the rip with like Capital Camp level pricing because we're still unproven. Right. But, um, yeah, the hope is that we escalate the pricing and make it a premium experience because we, like, we're the people that are on the guest list are running $50 and $100 million companies. And in order to keep that, it has to be interesting. It has to be good and you have to charge enough for it. So I totally agree.

I love it. Well, man, thanks for being here. This was awesome. And, uh, so Holdco Conf is, uh, what's it's holdcoconf.com or.com?

Holdco Conf. .com, and it's July 24th to the 26th in Cleveland. Looking forward to people coming.

Yeah, and then you're on Twitter at Wilson Companies— at Wilson Companies, right? At Wilson Companies. Check me out. Just changed my— @GirdleyCompanies. Awesome, man. Well, thanks for being here. Good to talk as always. Learned a lot, so appreciate it. Thank you.