Meghan Skornia of Asakura Robinson - There is Bar in San Antonio for Austin Expats?! - The Michael Girdley Show Episode 32

Hey, Michael here. Welcome to this week's episode of The Michael Girdley Show. I had a really cool guest this week and we talked a lot about a bunch of different subjects. Megan Scornia is her name. She actually relocated to San Antonio a couple of years ago from Austin, originally from St. Louis, and she goes into a lot of her background. We talked about a bunch of cool stuff. Believe it or not, there is a bar in San Antonio where people who left Austin go to commiserate their former city, the new 100-mile bike and hike trail that goes from San Antonio to Austin that they're working on, as well as a bunch of different urban planning, urban development, life and philosophy stuff. So really enjoyed it. Excited to share with you kind of Megan's perspective on stuff. I learned a lot and I'm personally excited to share this one with you. So thanks so much. Megan, thanks for being here. I'm really excited for chatting with you today. Maybe a good place to get started, like, uh, tell me how you ended up being in San Antonio and kind of doing what you do. Like, I'm, I'm excited to hear about that.

Cool. Thanks, Michael. Excited to be here today. Um, so my name is Megan Scornia. I am an urban planning consultant. I'm currently based in San Antonio, Texas. Um, how we got to San Antonio, it's kind of a, uh, classic millennial story of being priced out of Austin, Texas. Um, so we, um, I'm an urban planner. You, to get that, to get that job, you, um, just go to school and get an urban planning degree. So, um, we moved here in 2014, um, here being to Central Texas area, uh, moved to Austin where I worked for a consulting firm that writes zoning codes, um, form-based codes, things like that for different communities. Um, I was with them for a little bit and then switched over to where I'm at now, which is Asakura Robinson. Robinson, lived in Austin, and then how I ended up in San Antonio, I guess kind of towards the end of the, end of the scary part of the pandemic, I guess. So September, October 2020, we had a big life change. You know, a dog of ours died. Our rent was going up. Our affordability, affordability possibility of buying a house in Austin was just slipping through our fingers. Um, so we just decided, you know, first off, we're going to take kind of a road trip. Um, you know, drove up and down California, spent a couple of months doing that, put everything in storage. Um, but then decided that we needed basically to build some equity. Um, we kind of had added up how much we'd spent on rent in the past, you know, the 8 years of living in Austin. It was very painful. Um, but we, we wanted to keep our connections. We wanted to still be able to see our friends. Um, I wanted to keep my business connections. Um, We weren't really ready to leave Texas. Abbott had not put in place his draconian abortion law yet, although I frankly, that would have been a major changer for us and still is. So I don't know if we would have ended up quite the same. But we're here in San Antonio. We bought a house in Dignity Hill in April of last year. So actually a year ago. So yeah, I've been here a year and it's great. It's been great. Yeah.

And you're a mom now.

I am a mom. I had my son in November of last year, my first son. And so that experiencing kind of birth, pregnancy, postpartum, and a woman as a woman in this country has been pretty radicalizing. I don't fully— I haven't been able to fully digest what it means for me in my life yet, because I think it means a lot. Um, it's just, it's, it's been a whirlwind, but my son is amazing. His name is Holden, as everyone says. Um, he's just super cute and chill and very much what we needed.

That's awesome. That's awesome. And where, where is your partner slash husband from? Is it from— he's from St. Louis?

Um, yeah, my husband is. He's from Nashville. Um, we met when we were in architecture school. Um, I was a grad student, he was an undergrad, um, met there and then, um, we lived in Nashville for a little bit and then, um, moved to Austin for my job. And he's in carpentry, furniture fabrication, remodeling, um, kind of that whole world.

Yeah, super interesting. Well, one of the things you touched on, and we don't have to go deep in this if you don't want to, but like, like I've been fascinated by watching kind of like the process of like what it becoming a mom, like, changed to, like, thinking? And you kind of talked about that, like, it made you— like, I think the word you used was radicalized. So, like, what— like, can you describe more, like, what's happening? And we could talk about something else you want, like bus routes or whatever, but, like, it's super curious.

Yeah. Um, I mean, it's kind of crazy because, um, you know, you go your whole life trying to prevent a pregnancy, especially as a woman, you know. The onus is on us really to do a lot of the prevention and make sure the prevention is happening. And then you start not preventing and, you know, we were really, really lucky. I know we're very lucky. Got pregnant very immediately. So, you know, you kind of think that's it and you're like, okay, well, I've done it and now I wait. But really just going through everything that can happen in a pregnancy is really intense. For example, like some of the genetic testing that comes up, you know, it comes up midway through the pregnancy. And luckily, you know, my son is totally fine. We did have a minor scare where there was a moment where we thought in order to protect him, we might need an out-of-state abortion or something like that. And it was just really the, the most like intensely bad I've ever felt. Was knowing that like there might be something wrong with him. And I couldn't get care from my normal providers here in Texas. So that was pretty radicalizing. I mean, and then just going through— I'm in this really cool thing. It's really cool. It's through Reddit, you know, but it's these bumper groups. And what they do is they place you in these groups with people who are giving birth in the same month as you. Worldwide. So there's about, you know, 2,000 people in this chat, and we're chatting about what we're going through. We're all giving birth in November. And really just seeing how literally all the other developed countries where people were able to take off of work for their pregnancy, whereas I was working, laying down, throwing up, really poor mental health, like, just through these really awful situations in the United States. That was, that was kind of really intense. And I I don't know, you know, they say comparison is the thief of joy. You know, I know things are better for women in Europe, places like that, but really just seeing it firsthand as women who were pregnant at the same time as me was really, really intense. And I'm lucky I work for a very women-friendly company. I'm very senior there. So, you know, I had the flexibility that they could give me and that I needed, but it was just really intense to know that um, we can do better and we're just not. That sucks.

Yeah, it's super interesting. Well, yeah, you— so you talked about the ideas of like what the most recent like abortion bill that we had passed here in Texas, like, like, I guess it's so confusing to me. Like, I'm so confused. Like, why? I don't understand. I don't understand why we're doing that unless it's like— feels like we should be worrying about more important stuff.

But anyway, uh, yeah, I try to, I try to about it from like a view. I'm like, why do we want potential, you know, like I'm trying to think, I'm like, is this some sort of like we need to have workers thing? You know, like why are, why are we doing this? And I haven't been able to figure that out. So let me know if you do.

Uh, I, I will quote another person who I happen to spend a lot of time with, but shall remain anonymous. But said person says it's actually, um, quietly a war against, uh, women. So like it's designed to subjugate especially, uh, women of, you know, certain social strata, certain colors, that sort of stuff. Like, you know, I think somebody like yourself is in a situation where a law like that, uh, isn't as devastating, um, to your potential options and to your ability to live a balanced and best life. But I think that the argument is that it's, you know, to some extent, a pretty, pretty aggressive thing against the poor, you know, the under-resourced and stuff like that. That's, that is one person's, that is one person's interpretation of it. Um, which the corollary to that is it also drives this person crazy when, when she, he sees, uh, women signing up like this is a great thing for women. It's a terrible thing for women because it reduces options, um, and, and the ability to kind of control what's going to happen with your body and your life. So. Um, that's, that is one opinion I would, I have heard. I don't know.

That's one, that's, that's a valid one. I, I, that makes sense to me.

Yeah. So you talked about leaving Austin. I, and something you tweeted about is there's a bar in San Antonio where all the former Austinites go to be sad about leaving Austin. First of all, like, how dare you be sad about moving to San Antonio? But no, I'm just kidding. I felt sad when I moved here too. Yeah, we, we, we moved here in 2003, and I felt like it really took me almost a decade to feel like I was really part of the community and I had found my place. Like, I was, I was almost— there was a juncture where I was like, we're either moving to Southtown, which at the time was kind of the Dignity Hill of San Antonio, or we are, or we're moving someplace else, going back to California. And we moved to Southtown and it turned out great. But, uh, so anyway, I, I'm giving you some, some beef about that. But, um, what, uh, what, where is this bar that all this— where do all the sad Austinites go? And, uh, why is it Olive Garden?

Um, so, so I will say, you know, this is a locally owned bar by some wonderful San Antonians, um, with a lot of really cool San Antonio-specific things. I just have happened to see a lot of sad Austinites there. Um, and I I had a sibling of mine in town this weekend who lives in Dallas, but knows Austin well, and he correlated my feelings on that. But the bar is Pink Hill, right there on Broadway. And so they're just, you know, it has an Austin vibe. A lot of people there look like they just came right down from Austin. And I feel like whenever I'm there, I end up having a conversation with someone that basically goes along the lines of, You know, we're really, really lucky to have had options. Um, a lot of people, you know, in Austin do not. Um, and we're financially better off for moving down here, but, um, we miss it a lot. So, Pink Hill.

Yeah, I totally dig it. Now, the funny thing is, I spend— you know, you're talking about this bar right on Broadway in kind of the central urban core, if you call it urban, of San Antonio. I spend probably 2 hours every day within 100 yards here because my gym is right here. I had no idea there was a bar here. Oh nice. Like, where's this the most?

Yes, yeah, that's great.

By the way, this may be the most Austin part of it, is like, why don't you put a sign out front? Like, I want to go to the bar, but you got to put a sign out front.

They put a blinky one out like when they're open.

Yeah.

But it is a really wonderful place, highly recommended. You know, we take our baby there. But they have a lot of, you know, this is San Antonio, so we can't have an event without there being a market, right? So there's always a lot of markets going on. Um, you know, a lot of food pop-ups. Yeah. It's a great little shop.

Totally dig it. So what, what thing I noticed about your, your work, um, and they, on your bio for, for stuff, they asked you where you could work on a project anywhere in the world and you listed Mexico City and Hong Kong. So, I mean, I was just curious, like, what, what makes for an urban planner, like, and I'm the opposite of an urban planner, like, I'm an urban consumer, uh, like, what makes, like, a canvas like something like that, like, so interesting compared to, like, like, to me, like, the greatest urban planning challenge would be, like, Corpus Christi, like, and if you've never— I don't know if you've been to Corpus Christi, it's not that nice. Um, I have no listeners in Corpus Christi, by the way, because I poop on Corpus Christi a lot, but, like, Like, what is so appealing about, like, you know, someplace like Mexico City or Hong Kong for the type of work you do? Like, I just, I guess I didn't— I wouldn't understand what's the rationale and thinking there.

Yeah, well, kind of two. Um, so when you're an urban planner, you know, urban planning has a long history of doing some really messed up things to minority communities. Um, you know, the entire highway system, let's start. Um, so cultural competency is a really important thing for us. And so what that means is when we come into a community, if it's a community that I'm not a part of, you know, for example, it's a Black community, something like that, we'll really try to kind of take a step back and work with, you know, for that example, a Black firm or hire Black community members to really be the face of this project and be the drivers of this project. And so for me in Mexico City, like just knowing that I would have that approach to the project where it's not like me, the designer walking into Mexico City, where it's me finding, um, some cool, interesting Mexican firms and like lending support and learning from them. That's what really, um, drove me to kind of say that about Mexico City. Um, I mean, I'm just really fascinated by it. It's so close, been there a lot. It's like a totally different world. So just learning from people about the forces that shape that city, that live it day in and day out, I think would be really interesting to me. And then my response about Hong Kong was just, what's really interesting there is, you know, in America, we tend to work on the x-axis, you know, it's the land and the buildings out as far as you can see. Whereas, you know, in Hong Kong, they work so much more on the y-axis. Like, I just remember going there and being shocked and shocked to see commercial up at 3, 4, 5, 6 stories. Whereas in the United States, you know, commercial is ground level. That's it. Because it just— people aren't used to, I guess, buying things they can't see or going in places they can't see. So that was just really fascinating to me. And then add in the topography of Hong Kong, the complex geopolitical situation. It just seems like one of those projects that might be all-consuming but would be super, super interesting.

So, yeah. Well, I think so. I've been to both of those cities because, you know, I'm a world traveler and stuff, but I was actually— my wife and I love to travel. So it's true. Um, but like the, the thing that surprised, will surprise people about Hong Kong, which I always kind of think about it as like Asia light. It's like if you want to like, it's like a light beer. If you're going to go to Asia, it's like, oh, like you can get around pretty well. Um, and I remember once being like in a taxi there and the taxi driver didn't speak English. He just spoke Cantonese. And, uh, he called his daughter to like translate for us, uh, which was like super entertaining, like driving around Hong Kong. But I think the thing that would surprise people about Hong Kong, they know how dense it is, but like how much the policies have affected how like such a low percentage of the actual buildable land is actually built on. Like they have all that land that because the government is doling it out a little bit at a time to preserve their revenue stream, like they actually haven't developed even though some parts of it like go up like 80 stories right into these massive housing projects to have people. So I always, I always found that to be a fascinating example of how, like, the economics of how government gets funded can totally affect, like, the housing market and how development happens.

Absolutely. And I mean, just the amount of green space there, um, is pretty incredible. And I mean, it's just really fascinating to see, um, especially, you know, I grew up in your typical kind of middle-class privileged suburban lifestyle, just to see the ways in which people live and are totally fine. It's been It's been really freeing for me because I feel like the suburbs do just put such an intense pressure on outward facades and things like that. So to really see other people living in— I don't want to quote Le Corbusier on here, but machines for living, they're actually using their house to live. They're not using it as a facade to show how rich or Christian they are, I think is really, really interesting.

Yeah, totally dig it. Well, and then you see that same thing happening in Hong Kong. The other fascinating thing they do is because you can't use your house as a showpiece for your wealth or for your values like you can in, in America, um, or even Japan or other places like that, they do it with their cars. Like, so they all buy these like ridiculous vehicles and then they get custom license plates on it. So if you're ever interested in it, go on like, uh, go on the web or YouTube and there'll be like channels that focus like on the cars and then the creative custom license plates that everybody gets to go with these these like ridiculous yellow Lambos and stuff like that. Like, it's totally fascinating, uh, as, as, as an opportunity to kind of see how the other half like, like watches that, like, that human instinct to kind of show off and peacock on things. But because you can't peacock a certain way, they start peacocking a whole other way. Like, the human urge is, is unstoppable.

Sure.

Uh, in terms of that.

Yeah. So I guess the lesson is just you're gonna express that in some way, no matter what.

Yeah, well, I mean, look, men are gonna do men things. I, being one, I will tell you that's how it works. Like, we just do men things. So the other, the other thing that I think Texans in general, like, like, we had a thing happen recently. So we've, we go, I go to a gym, uh, over by the bar actually, and there's a young guy there. He comes to the gym all the time. He hangs out with us. We go get coffee afterwards. And we found out for spring break he was going to do what? Well, let me ask you, what would be the most boring thing you could imagine a 21-year-old guy, healthy and virile, doing for his senior year spring break? What would be the most boring thing you could imagine?

Iowa? I don't know. Missouri. I'm from Missouri, so I can say that.

Close. He was going to the northern suburbs of Houston to play golf for a week. That's what he was gonna do. And me, me and my other middle-aged guy buddies found out by himself, by the way, not with anybody else. Me and my other middle-aged buddies found out about this and literally for weeks we harangued him until he agreed to go to Mexico City for the week and go stay in a hostel and just have a great time. And it all went great until after spring break he comes back and we say, dude, how was Mexico City? Like, amazing metropolis of the world. How was it? And he said, I didn't go. And, uh, we said, what happened? His mom found out that he was going to go to Mexico City, freaked out about all the PR and refused to give him his passport. So he went to the world's most second boring thing. He went to Vegas with a bunch of 20-year-old dudes. So anyway, so I think that's the thing that kind of drives me nuts about Mexico City is number one, people don't realize if you're in South Texas, like if you want to get out of the heat for the summer, the smartest thing to do is actually get on a plane and fly an hour and a half south to Mexico City. And the weather's wonderful because they're at such high altitude. And then the second thing is just how much people have taken the kind of scare tactics in the, in the media and like not gone to places like Guadalajara or Mexico City or some of these other kind of San Miguel de Allende, like some of these just beautiful places that are so culturally rich and the people are great. And like, yeah, you shouldn't do stupid stuff to get yourself in trouble, but like, it's just such a missing opportunity for so many people. So anyway, that's just my soapbox about Mexico City. Like, it's great.

That's funny because the first time I went, I was quite a bit younger. And yeah, my, my mom was the same thing. She was very concerned, very, very concerned. Um, but I mean, I will say I, I felt very safe the whole time we were in Mexico City. Every time we've gone, um, and I, and I feel regularly feel unsafe on the streets of San Antonio, so Yeah.

So we talked about— I went to lunch with some work colleagues. Why do you think people feel unsafe on the streets of San Antonio or any American city? I don't think, I don't think San Antonio is that different from other places, unless you disagree. Like, what, what do you think is diff— why do, why do people feel unsafe? Why do you feel unsafe?

Yeah. Um, for me, it's kind of a constant battle between— and so just a little bit about me, we have one vehicle in my family. Um, it's mostly what my husband takes to work. It's a medium-sized truck. Um, so, you know, during the day, most of the time I, uh, walk and I take the bus, and that's pretty by choice, you know. Um, if we needed another car, we could get one, but it's just, um, so I almost feel like with my job I know too much. Um, I know, you know, they are these horrific depreciating assets, not to mention the environmental cost, you know, the cost on the modern family. I know how unsafe vehicles are, like it's this this massive amount of death we just accept every single year as the way it has to be, but it doesn't. So I'm really coming at the streets being unsafe from a pedestrian perspective. So really, to me, I see two things. I see the physical infrastructure. We just don't have enough crosswalks, lighting, sidewalks, things like that. And then the other one is from a street harassment perspective, I'm like constantly torn between walking down a street that is busier, but I know I'm going to be told some really messed up, awful things from speeding trucks, or a street that's less busy, but I'm a little bit worried about safety because there's not as many eyes on the street. Especially where I live in Dignity Hill, the dogs are a major issue. That's my really only beef with my neighborhood, and it's a big one, is is the dog situation, is pretty shocking for an American city of this size. Um, but yeah, those are kind of the two forces I see at work with why are the streets unsafe. Just really this auto dependence is a big one.

Yeah. Okay, so you're saying it's actually a lot of the safety— well, it sounds like there's vehicles and then there's crazy drivers and then there's some animals that, yeah, and then that combines the structure and then there's like society.

And I mean, um Yeah, the street harassment thing, it's, it's, you know, it's— it didn't bother me. I mean, it bothered me a lot, um, early on, and then it didn't bother me, and then it bothered me a lot while I was pregnant. To be getting the amount of street harassment was, was pretty messed up. Um, it bothers me now when I'm out.

Is it like dudes like yelling at sexual stuff?

Is that— yeah, it's, um Yeah, it is sexual stuff. If you want to look up, I used to run an account called @atxstreetharassment when I lived in Austin. It is since not doing anymore. But yeah, it's just mostly sexual stuff, vast majority from white men in trucks. So that's just the way it is. I mean, like, women's bodies are seen as like out there for the taking. So yeah, sexual stuff, threatening stuff, gestures, you know, on— sometimes it'll be like a flash of a certain male body part, you know, pulling over in the car, that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's kind of a bummer.

Yeah, it's really interesting. And you're— I mean, I saw you tweeted you take the bus a lot too, right? Or you try to when it sounds like it's not that reliable. I don't, I don't take the bus. I pull up. I used to take it when I lived in San Francisco.

It works when it works.

Yeah.

Yeah, it works when it works. And the thing about transit funding is a lot of the funding comes from ridership numbers, so it's like a chicken or the egg situation. I mean, everyone who I'm sure works at VIA, which is our transit agency here, is very qualified and know what works well. It's just the funding and the— kind of the buy-in from the community is just, it's not quite there, especially in Texas where, you know, having this vehicle is such a sign of like who you are and what you do and everything like that.

Yeah. I mean, do you think it's, well, do you think it's shifting more that, you know, your generation especially, and I think we covered in the pre-show, you're a millennial and I'm Gen X, so you could, you're welcome to say, okay, boomer to me, whatever you want. By the way, I've studied generational stuff lately and, uh, like the number one driver for, and a number one fear for, uh, boomers is they fear a loss of relevance. Like they're terrified about it. Um, and, and that the big problem with OK boomer for them and why it's so insulting is it totally implies like, oh, you're irrelevant. I don't care about what you think. And that's just like, that's why like every baby boomer you talk to who's heard that okay boomer thing is like, like it makes their head explode. So anyway, coming soon to a Twitter thread near you will be like, yeah, do not say okay boomer to boomers.

Do you know another thing that I just realized, um, will, is very dangerous to say to a boomer is to, you know, so this is a generation who's really had, you know, everything they want when they want it. Hyper, hyper independence from this generation and telling them that there is a time imminently that they won't be able to drive. And then the fact that they're all living in, living in these communities that are set up literally only for driving. Like, I mean, if you tell a boomer that they're not going to be able to drive forever, it's liable to get you killed. But it is, that's just, that's kind of a big, big urban planning problem that is facing this generation is that they, you know, are all living in these autocentric communities, and auto— driving an auto is, is not for everyone, and most especially not some elderly people. So that's going to be a big one.

So, so what do we do about that? Are we just screw— or is it just going to be Mad Max for a 20-year period?

It might be. Um, I mean, we build communities for walkability, you know. We build— it's funny because I think about in San Antonio, I think I tweeted this, but I'm like, has anybody told everyone that we can have a Pearl in every neighborhood? You know, like a mixed-use walkable center with apartments and shops literally in every neighborhood if we just change the zoning? And like, I don't know if no one's been that direct with people or if, you know, the other sides are coming around saying, oh, apartments, there's gonna be poor people, it's gonna be awful. You know, all the normal kind of arguments. I mean, it really all comes down to the land development code. I mean, especially in places, you know, in San Antonio and in Austin, Central Texas, Texas as a whole, United States as a whole right now. I mean, development money is there and ready to build. It's just, you know, we're slowing it down with our development codes. Our development codes are racist and anti-women and anti-pedestrian and anti-poor and, you know, a large variety of things. It's just kind of changing these codes that is arduous.

Yeah. Well, I mean, is it, is it still kind of done like they do the National Fire Code and Building Code? Like, there's a, uh, nationally there's IFC, IBC. I haven't done this in like 5 years, so if I'm talking about stuff like you— this is the okay boomer moment, Yoke, was it? But is it, is it the case that there's still kind of these national things that everybody just kind of says, okay, well, here's the here's the UCC or whatever it's going to be in terms of our code, and we're going to adopt this, then we're going to modify it a little bit. Is that, is that the core of the problem of— or, or is there something— is there another way that these local building codes get set up?

Well, so we're talking about development code. So building codes are like what you're saying, you know, make sure that like the wall is not flammable, stuff like that, right? Um, that's a building code. A zoning code is more like what uses and what form and shapes, height, you know, buildings you can put in different places. And those are actually, unfortunately, usually developed at the municipal level. And unfortunately, they're also usually developed with a significant amount of public input. And you think that sounds good, but the way we set up our public input over the years is to favor white landowners. So all of the policies that are set out of these engagement sessions on the land development codes favors these landowners. So I mean, this is really everything from asking for input that requires a computer and an internet connection, which is a privilege, asking for input at a meeting at 6 o'clock that doesn't have food or childcare. Only so many people can make that. So there's things that have just excluded people from this process. And then, I mean, going back even further, we're talking about actual redlining, actual deed restrictions that say, you know, African Americans cannot live in this home. Really, it's just been like a layering of these oppressive systems, and they all are locally developed for each city. And like, for example, you know, if you go out into the county, you know, I'm talking more rural situations, but like counties don't have zoning codes and things like that. So it's mostly the cities that you're seeing that are developing these, driving these, and restricting this kind of flow of development.

Yeah. What is this? Is this one of the situations where, you know, San Antonio is kind of a rarity in Texas where it's this big single amoeba city compared to, you know, let's say Dallas. Dallas is a great example, right, where you have Dallas city limits itself and Dallas city government is relatively small, and then you end up having this total fragmentation of the governments around the rest of kind of especially North Dallas and even South. You have Hutchins, Little Elm, Waxahachie, all these different cities up there, and they each get to kind of not screw up their zoning codes. Is this, I mean, is this one of the situations where, you know, kind of the Austin and San Antonio model where we have this one giant city that does most of our urban zoning, like, are we getting hurt by that? Is that, is that how you would think about it? Or is it better to have the more kind of fragmented either Houston or Dallas model where they have a bunch of little municipalities?

Um, that's a good question. In— so, I mean, in Texas, a lot of times, like, you know, let's look at Alamo Heights, for example. Um, you know, I live there. Let's do it. Because— so, I mean, you know, Alamo Heights is its own city, and I— and a lot of these, you know, you'll see these kind of wealthy enclaves that want to become their own municipality and that's really so that they can have control over their own rules and make rules that make sense for their tax base. Is that— has that specifically been used over time as a tool for segregation? Absolutely it has. Is there anything inherently wrong with doing that if it works for your community? I don't necessarily think so. I just think it's the way it's been used in America has been very, very exclusive. And that said, I will say, like, just from a delivery of services, delivery of infrastructure perspective, like Alamo Heights, if it was not as wealthy as it is, they would have a lot of hardship funding, you know, infrastructure, roads, street services, things like that. And so a good example of where this can be a problem, I think, comes from actually where I'm from in St. Louis. And so there, the city and the county are separated. And through decades and decades of racist zoning policies, white flight, things like that, a vast, vast majority of the wealth lives out in the county, pays taxes to St. Louis County, and is very against a merger of the city and the county. And the city of St. Louis, where the people who have the means drive in once a week for a Cardinals game and then drive right back out, The city is struggling, struggling, struggling. And so, you know, losing population by the tens of thousands every year. And so while the idea is not inherently bad, I think you can see by my examples it's just really been used as a very bad tool.

Yeah. And for those of you that don't know, San Antonio Alamo Heights is like the kind of in the one inner city Well, it's one of three little inner cities that we have that are their own little cities. And they're like, well, it's where I grew up. It's like where the privileged grew up. So being a privileged person, I'm not afraid to admit where I'm from.

Yes, definitely.

It's really interesting. You know, you talked about this problem where you end up with governments almost always, like the fundamental problem is they don't think about and aren't optimized for the residents they should be trying to bring in. You know, they end up optimizing for protecting the interest of the existing folks, and that could be bad for everybody, you know? And I think that's kind of— if people ask kind of what my, my challenge is for San Antonio is like, we keep optimizing more and more for parents, people below the poverty line, like we do, we do a lot for that, for car lovers, for retirees and for military people. But people that want to live like the life that you were living prior to kind of becoming a parent, I'm just, I'm being totally presumptive. That that has changed your life radically. But the people who want to live that life, like be mobile, live on a bike, not own a car, like, you know, work in high-growth kind of environments like San Antonio has just for decades just decided not to do anything to try to retain or attract those people. And it's proven like it's pretty challenging for me. Like, I don't try to recruit under-30 single people to San Antonio anymore because I know I can't keep them here. Like, they never stay. But if somebody is like a parent They'll totally stay. They think this place is great, which it is.

Well, and like, yeah. And that's what, you know, we were, we were up the road living in, you know, 490 square feet in the middle of the city and wanting to have a kid. And, you know, it just wasn't going to pencil, but, you know, San Antonio was a good place for us where we can park it for a few years, get relatively affordable childcare, grow some equity, you know, things like that. So I totally agree. I have a good friend of mine who is in the low 30s dating pool, and she is struggling. So I understand, um, where, where you're coming from. Yeah.

Oh, she's here in San Antonio?

Yes, she is. So yeah, yeah, you know, anyone's into my way, but she's, uh—

I mean, the funny thing is I know a lot of desirable 30-something single women in San Antonio, much fewer men. So It's, it's a challenge. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's one of those things where people were like, you know, I got, I get used to get invited to like the, hey, come on. And we're going to talk about how to fix the community meetings. I don't go to those anymore, by the way. This is me. I just keep my blinders on. Um, but they would, they would be like, what do you mean you can't keep 20-somethings here who are single? I was like, open up Tinder. Go ahead. Yeah. Open up Tinder, sign up for an account, come back in a half an hour. Let me know. And then go pick another— anywhere else. Go anywhere else. Go Dallas, Houston, Waco. I don't care. Just compare their Tinder to our Tinder and let me know if you still want to stay here. Let me know.

And it's unfortunate. And like, you know, I feel like a lot of, you know— and I'm, I'm saying what she tells me and a few other single friends— but it seems like a lot of what's left are, you know, unfortunately, men who maybe haven't been to therapy yet. Um, and so, you know, it's, it's not, it's, it's not an unfixable problem, but it's just they just, they need a little work. And at this point, you know, a lot of us, I mean, I'm lucky that, you know, I'm married to a great man who does a lot of inner work on himself. But like, a lot of men, it's just kind of, it's just been so long that they, that they've been set in these ways. And, you know, and like, we as women, we've, we've been dating so long, you know, and like dealing with all this men BS that like the thought of then trying to date one and convince them to go to therapy. It's just like, it's, it's like, I'd rather stay home. So that's kind of— I think that's kind of the general feeling.

Yeah, I, I mean, look, I'm not an expert in this. I've been married for however many— 20 years. Like, I— when I, when I was dating, like, they still— people still put out personal ads in the newspaper. That's how long ago. Like, I was dating—

see, that seems really classic and nice.

Um, I did put a— I did put a personal ad in the San Francisco newspaper once when I was there. And, um, I put it in the men seeking women stuff because I was like, well, let's just try it, what could go wrong? And, uh, all I got were phone messages from men, like just hundreds of them. I was like, this is not working, this is not San Francisco for you. Uh, yes, yes, that— I mean, that's, that's— San Francisco is a not a great place to be a straight single person, especially straight single man, like it's pretty rough. So in retrospect, New York and other places have better dating options, which by the way, the last two, the last two young men I recruited here, guess where they're moving this weekend? Like they moved to Austin first and they're like, yeah, we want to go see the bigger world and they're going to New York. It's like, well, I can't really blame them. That sounds really smart. I'll come visit and I will be in bed by 10 because I'm not getting in trouble. That's just the way it's supposed to work.

Exactly.

Super cool. Well, I mean, you know, I think it's, I think it's so admirable, like, that you've moved here despite not really having family here. And I can tell you actually care about San Antonio. So thank you. Uh, thank you for caring about San Antonio. It's, it's super admirable. And, you know, I think the temptation when two people that care about a place like we seem to is you can get into some very negative stuff. So I just want to say, like, San Antonio's got more positives than negatives as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. San Antonio, yes, it has issues. You know, we've talked, we touched on a few of them, but you can— I will say that, you know, you said that not having family here, and that's something that, um, we're just really lucky to have been like embraced by a couple really good friends here. And like, I mean, a lot of people, like you say, are just shocked that we're down here with a kid without family because it is such a big family culture, whereas, you know, We've been on our own forever. We're fine. We kind of like it. But, you know, I mean, just the welcoming of the city has been really incredible. The cultural richness. I mean, like I said, and I think my tweet, I was like, I cannot believe I've been sitting up there in Austin for this whole time, not knowing this super complex, rich culture that exists in San Antonio. So it is definitely on the up and up and the energy is on the way. So, yeah.

Well, I actually, in my prep for today's chat, I quoted that. So thank you for knocking that one out for me. I was like, oh, that's So I do want to talk about something fun, and maybe you don't know anything about this, but you retweeted that there's this Great Springs project that's going from Austin to San Antonio. So for those of you listening on the internet or whatever, like, the two cities are like 80 miles apart. So they're kind of like Dallas-Fort Worth, um, with, with twin cities kind of in that, that nature, except Dallas and Fort Worth are much closer. They're like 35, 40 miles apart, and we're like almost, almost 80. So they're building this 100-mile nonstop trail from San Antonio to Austin. So I'm excited about this. I know it's not gonna be ready for like a decade. Hopefully I'll still be alive when it's done. But what do you know anything about it?

Yeah, I do. So, um, a lot of my colleagues, um, over the years have worked on this project. Um, the new plan was just released, which kind of shows the routing, which is super exciting. Going back to how this came to be is really interesting. So I don't know if you've ever turned off all the labels on a Google Map on a satellite and just zoomed out. If you look, you can kind of see the edge of where that Balcones escarpment kind of comes up like a curve from San Antonio to Austin there. And then all of the springs that come out of it, our beloved springs, San Pedro down here in San Antonio, Barton in Austin, Comal, San Marcos, all of those So what's really interesting is like, you know, your first thought is then you turn the labels back on and you're like, well, why did they build a highway on top of this incredibly environmentally sensitive area? And it's because, you know, this is the path that people have used for years and that was a country road and then it was an interstate and, you know, you know how it goes. But I'm really excited about it because I feel like we're getting back to that classic use of that escarpment kind of move. Geologically, and we're just, you know, really highlighting those springs. And then, you know, I have a fantasy where one day the interstates are no more and we're all riding on trains. You know, I take the train to Austin quite a bit and you go right along that path and you go over all of these beautiful swimming holes and springs. So I'm really excited about it. Any, any other mode besides a car I get pumped about. I think it's also one of the few places where in this state conservative people and liberal people can really find some common ground. Is it perfect? Is it a match made in heaven? No. But I think in a lot of ways, as we drift further and further apart, it is one of those core values that is important to focus on. So I think it's a great project, has a lot, lot of, lot of potential.

Yeah, dig it. Well, actually, so part of, you know, I mountain bike a lot. So one of the local parks, Macalester Park here, I think they're going to take part. It's going to start actually, it looks like right somewhere in there. Um, right near my house. So I could actually like bike from my house to this park to Austin, assuming 100 miles. So that's pretty cool. Um, yeah, but yeah, they're gonna— hopefully they start paving it. That does sound really awesome.

Um, yeah, I'd love to do a thru-hike and then, you know, take the train back or something. Like, um, it's just— it's such a beautiful area. And, and like I said, you know, seeing it from a train, I'd encourage everybody to do that If you haven't, it's quite nice.

So tell me about taking the train from San Antonio to Austin. Is it fun? Like, how does it— what's the pluses and minuses?

So in the United States, Amtrak for the most part has to share rail, and especially in Texas, has to share physical infrastructure with freight. So unfortunately, that means, as anyone who's taken Amtrak knows, delays, delays, delays. But because the line originates here in San Antonio and heads north, if you take it from San Antonio to Austin, it's almost always on time. Taking it back down the other way from Austin to San Antonio, that line originates in St. Louis, so it's often delayed by like 5, 7, 12 hours, like a bonkers amount. So what I do is like for work, I have a— I'm working on Project Connect pretty heavily and have other work in Austin. So normally I'll take the 7:00 AM out of San Antonio. I live right by the station. Station, which is super convenient. Take it north, takes about an hour and a half, you know, catch up on emails, sleep, whatever you need to do. Get off in downtown Austin about 9:00, 9:30. And then normally to get back then in that case, I'll either take a Megabus if it's good timing, or I'll take Hitch, which is kind of like Uber, but between cities. So you're piecing together a few things, but it's just really beautiful. It's such a relaxing ride. You see all the springs, and then the view coming into downtown Austin over the river is just like none other. It's gorgeous.

So I took Megabus, and the last couple of times I did it, the air conditioner didn't work. We took it to Houston once, and I was just like, uh, this is the worst. I'm going to go full baby boomer and just drive myself.

So, well, and this is the plug because Von Lane is amazing and that's like a business class bus. Um, but they do not run Austin to San Antonio despite my incessant begging. So if, if you want to beg them too, I would very much appreciate it.

Actually, when I was spending a lot more time up in Austin, which by the way, I decided like, hey, like I haven't been to Austin probably in 3 years just cause I decided I don't want to go there anymore. Like I just don't like it. I don't, I would rather fly to LA than and, you know, go to Austin. Um, but, or I spend more time in Dallas, frankly. So, but, um, one of the business ideas I wanted to do was actually before, uh, before any of the bus services came along, I wanted to start like a shuttle bus that ran from Geekdom, where you are, downtown San Antonio, out to 1604 and 35, so the Live Oak Mall. Live Oak, yeah. And then, then stop on South Congress and at the Capitol and it just got bucketed to the ideas of like things I never really— projects I didn't really want to work on because I didn't want to go to Austin as much anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So super cool. So one thing you've talked about, like, and it's in your kind of bio stuff, like you talk about people understanding the reality of our housing crisis. So like what sort of things is wrong, are wrong, or misconceptions like in the common narrative? How are people talking about the housing crisis? I mean, I hear about the affordability crisis and stuff, but like what aspects of that do people typically get wrong, you know, from your perspective as an urban planner?

Yeah. I mean, and this is a big one, like the idea that stopping development in your neighborhood will keep prices stable.

Yeah.

It's just, I mean, economically not going to happen. In the United States.

Um, so why do they think that? Like, this is the— this is like typical California, like, stuff, right? Like, do they not teach economics?

And it's crazy because, you know, I see people who are fully millennial, you know, my generation, card-carrying millennials, and they, you know, are the same way. And I know that they understand supply and demand It's just such an emotional thing. And, you know, people, people I think have a really hard problem looking at— really tough time looking at the problem from a bit higher level because they see, okay, there's a single parcel in my neighborhood. And if we knock down a house where somebody is paying, you know, $800 in rent for that and replace it with something that's, you know, renting 4 units for $1,200 or whatever it is, they're going to be priced out. Yes, they are, but we are adding units to the overall equation, which will only bring down prices. And I don't know if you find out why people can't, like, while regular, like, smart people can't grasp that, like, please let me know. I mean, I know that said, like, in Austin, we see a lot of heartache around naturally affordable housing, which is, you know, your older apartment complexes, especially over off like Riverside and Pleasant Valley, that's some of the last remaining affordable to regular working people housing in Austin. It's in sometimes pretty rough shape. And so while we all know that in theory getting rid of that housing and putting in some high-rise will add capacity to the overall market, you are taking away what is some of the last truly affordable housing in downtown Austin. So when it's coming from a community that lives in those apartments and they're saying, "You're taking away my home," I'm very sympathetic and I want to make that work. When it's coming from a white homeowner who doesn't want apartments next door or down the street or anything like that, I have like zero, zero sympathy for that because you're already on the upper end of the economic spectrum. You're a landowner and then you're going to prevent other people from having a place to live. That's just kind of inexcusable to me. So there's two different ways to look at it. And then what you see in Austin is you have people who don't want apartments, who want to preserve their land values, and they're co-opting this, what is a very, very kind of working-class fight, is to protect naturally occurring affordable housing. But they'll co-opt it for themselves to preserve their property values. Like, it's just, it's a big, big nasty mess.

Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, so I go on Twitter sometimes and like the NIMBYs, the Not in My Backyard people there that are using that kind of argument, like the argument they'll make is that, oh, if you allow somebody to tear down affordable housing and or to build more density houses, so let's say there's 5 units there that are affordable. And you allow somebody to tear that down and replace it with 12 units. Well, the developers are responding to, let's say in the Bay Area, they're responding to the incentives that they're given and the constraints that they're given, which is they can only build up so high. They have to provide a certain number of parking spaces and they're only given so much land and they're going to pay a fixed amount of fees no matter how much the units cost. So, you know, I think typically you would see these people being like, well, you know, if you demolish these, like, you know, rent-controlled or or naturally affordable housing, they get replaced by quote unquote luxury or market things. And you know, I think you've talked about earlier in this podcast, like how the building development codes are so screwed up. And the zoning codes are so screwed up that of course they are, like, of course the developers are doing that.

Yeah.

'Cause that's just the, we have, so you can't just fix it by saying, oh, we're going to upzone everything, or we're going to, you know, we're going to not protect this naturally affordable stuff. You gotta fix all, fix all the stuff around it. But, and humorously enough, and I want you to tell me if I'm wrong with this, but I'm in a special Twitter group for San Antonio people and somebody asked like, what would be the number one thing you would change about San Antonio? And I said I would remove all minimum parking requirements from the development code. So I'm curious, do you think that's the stupidest thing you've ever heard?

No, I think that is absolutely fantastic. You are seeing, you know, really progressive cities do that everywhere. There's a big push to do it in Austin. I don't know if you've been to downtown Austin. Well, you said you haven't, but And drive through it. Just keep going to Dallas. You do see, but you know, everything that's new in downtown Austin has, you know what, like a 15-story parking podium.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

And, you know, we're building buildings that are supposed to last, what, like 100+ years? We're not going to be driving cars in 100+ years. We're already seeing it becoming prohibitively expensive for a vast majority of, like, people who need them. And, you know, it's just really how much are we going to let personal budgets go to this, you know, depreciating asset is kind of crazy. But I mean, yes, I— short answer, yes, I think removing those is a major step and would go a long way. And I mean, people don't realize that removing these parking minimums will drop prices because those parking, parking spaces that have to be provided by developers are often adding so much rent costs, so much for sale costs. I mean, it's really kind of bonkers.

Yeah. Well, it, it's, you know, I used to live in Southtown here and it's, um, you know, it surprised me how much, and that's kind of a near what I, I, it was actually a suburban environment in the inner city core and everybody would talk about it like it's urban. I was like, dude, there's single family homes with driveways and these lawns. This is a suburban environment. It's just historic. And it just, it just amazed me how much the local kind of landed gentry of like, and I don't mean this in the, I'm going to say this in the meanest way possible, I guess, the old white folks there were just like, what do you mean you're taking, somebody's going to park in front of my house? And it's like, no, no, you live in the urban core. This is the way it's supposed to be. Like, get your ass out and walk. Like, that's, that's what you signed up for. It's not the Dominion. Move out to the Dominion if you want that, which is a upscale, upscale fancy neighborhood here in San Antonio that all the Spurs live in.

So yeah, well, and like, the other thing is like, what, what makes those people think that they own the public right-of-way? I mean, that's kind of where I am like, who told you that? Because they were mistaken.

Golly, I'm so, I'm so excited for our future millennial overlords to come in and take over. You guys are going to be great. It's just going to be great.

I'm ready for Gen Z. I will, I'll take a Gen Z boss any day. They've got it figured out. They don't take shit. I'm like, just tell me what to do, I will be your— I'll be your weapon.

Um, so yeah, so I've got a Gen Z thread coming up too. But so, two crazy things. So let me make sure I have the dates for Gen Z right, because my kids are Gen Z. Gen Z years. So my kids—

I think I just found out my son is Generation Alpha, which is interesting.

So yes. Okay, so here's two— here's two fascinating things about, uh, about Gen Z. Number one, they are the first generation to see their parents as friends almost exclusively. So I was getting this talk about generations. So my kids were born in 2006, 2009. So they are frankly Gen Z. So they're the first ones to see us because they have Gen X parents a lot of times, right? Like us. So they see, and we listen, we value their opinion. We treat them as peers. They've been spoken to as adults ever since they were little kids. So they're the first generation to treat, teach, treat their parents like friends. So I'm listening to this, um, listening to this like generationalist, I guess, person who studies generations. And she goes, okay, how many of you have teenagers? I was like, oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, teenage kids. Yeah, 12 and 16. And she goes, do they raid your closet and wear your clothes? I was like, yes, they, they just take my stuff. Like, like, it's just like if it fits, they're wearing it. And, uh, she's like, that's because they're the first generation to see you as a friend, like you're a peer, you're a buddy. Cool. It's fascinating. The second thing is—

that makes me really happy.

I guess so, but what clothes have I got to wear? Uh, so anyway, the, uh, the second, the second thing that they do is if they don't see the utility in learning something They will just refuse to do it. Absolutely. Whereas like in my generation or millennial generation, that was somewhat a minority opinion. This group, like it's almost universal. They're like, I don't need to know 19th century French literature. I'm not studying it. I'm going to get a 71 and pass and barely. And that's just the way it's going to be. None of this matters to my future. Like, so those are the two kind of fascinating Gen Z type things. So, uh, good luck with that. Well, hopefully by the time they're in charge, I'm dead.

So, no, I love that. And part of me feels a little bit Gen Z sometimes, like, like we were talking about that. I'm in this women's kind of, you know, financial literacy investment group. And, you know, a lot of us who are moms are talking about, well, do we start a 529 or do we start a custodial brokerage for our new babies? Because a lot of us are seeing where, you know, our education it didn't pencil, you know, the amount of student loans I have for the amount I'm getting paid. I, it could have gone either way. You know, I probably would have been fine had I just not gone to college and like figured it out. And so, you know, that's a big conversation that a lot of us are having is like, well, do we fully fund these 529s or do we assume our kids might decide that it's not a great investment to go to college? And that's just really kind of it's kind of sad, but I think it's also somewhat realistic, you know, as we're seeing this student loan crisis balloon and balloon and balloon and, you know, stagnated wages, rising housing costs and things like that. So it's really interesting to hear about Gen Z, and I kind of like that because, you know, I feel really strongly that the, you know, U.S. kind of education system is making workers, not necessarily thinkers. And, you know, I got a lot of flak for for having that attitude in my own education. Um, so I'm glad to hear— I like that about them.

Uh, well, my kids' 529s are fully funded, so we'll see what they do with it. Maybe they'll buy Dad a Lambo. Dad needs a Lambo. Um, so one thing I did want to ask, and then we're coming up on an hour, so I know I gotta let you go, but the, um— so how is the world of urban planning thinking about like the evolution of technology, right? So like you had kind I think like 1.0 coming along of like the Uber, Lyft of the world. And to some extent those just kind of supplanted the old taxi scheme and made them more useful. But like, like it seems pretty, pretty soon that we're going to have, you know, some sort of self-driving car. Like you're going to have self-driving smart buses, you know, flying taxis, you know, the quadcopters that can put 3 people on and fly you someplace like those are, those are on the horizon. Flown or not. You're going to have smart garages as part of that, like all this kind of more intelligent street infrastructure. Like, how do you guys like think about that in the context of, you know, planning for today and then thinking about it tomorrow? Like, I'm curious, I'm curious how much reality you guys think there is there.

Well, it's really interesting because, you know, in the things you just listed, um, a lot of them are assuming people have money for that. Yeah, I mean, I'm working in communities where people can't even, you know, we're getting to the point where gas is just rising and rising and rising. The cost of owning a car is rising and rising. They're having to move further, further out to qualify. So like, you know, self-driving cars don't really solve any problems. Like the infrastructure for that is just still, you know, massively expensive for the number of people it serves. So really a lot of us are just kind of like, yeah, like tech is great and we'll use it where we can, but like like looking to our, you know, to Europe and things like that, and even to Asia where, you know, they're on the forefront of technology and they haven't figured out anything better than a train, um, because a train moves the best, the largest amount of people with the smallest amount of infrastructure investment. So, so we're kind of like, you know, this is exciting and, you know, a lot of things, you know, micromobility I think is really going to change, um, you know, continue. We're going to see changes related to that. But, um, a lot of you know, see a self-driving car and like The Boring Company and like stuff like that as just kind of like a dude idea that like isn't really grounded in the reality of how things get done. Because like, I mean, think about it, you're still going to be sitting in traffic in your self-driving car. Doesn't really fix that. Yeah. So it's, so like, I think we're very interested in a way, but I think, I think we are also facing a reckoning with the, the private vehicles. And I think that we're seeing a little bit of that now. I think if we charge people what they actually owe for gas, they actually owe for road infrastructure, if we start doing that, we'll see that much more quickly. So in a lot of ways, it's kind of back to the basics in some ways. You know, I will say we do look to Asia a lot. We look to Asia, we look to Europe, what people who are really, really experienced in moving people around do and kind of follow their lead. Yeah.

Well, it all, it all ties together, right? You have to think about the transit infrastructure. You have to think about density of living, like, like we, to go back to like the bus system challenges here, like we've almost, in my opinion, given San Antonio's bus system, like almost an impossible job to do. Right. It's like, oh, you're supposed to like give this high density transit thing. but you're supposed to do it in suburban neighborhoods with freeways where cars get, you know, privacy on everything. And it's just like, like, it just kind of blows my mind that we don't think more deeply about that stuff. But then I look at all the vested interests trying to protect their vested interests and it's like, oh, okay, well, that all makes sense again. I totally dig this.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, well, no wonder what no one rides VIA. Like, you know, I mean, we make the stops are super hot, you know, they don't have a lot of funding for a lot of the things they need. And the land use and the transportation are just tied together so heavily. That's why I'm working on Project Connect in Austin, and that's why it is really such a comprehensive package, the way that bond was written, because it has so much funding for the land use that are adjacent to the new transit that's going in. You have to have that symbiotic circular relationship for them both to be successful, the land use and the transit, or it's it's just going to be a train to nowhere. Um, so again, that's why I think that bond package was like really super innovative, especially when you're talking about, you know, building transit from scratch in a Texas city. Um, so yeah, just really making sure those land use and transit go together.

Something we're really missing the boat on in San Antonio. So maybe future politicians will get it.

It is. We'll see. Maybe, maybe.

Well, when, when I vote for you for mayor, it'll be great.

Hey, I'm private sector all the way. I'm too loudmouthed for a public office, though.

Count on it. Count on it. All right, Megan, thank you so much for doing this. It was really nice to know you, and I hope you had as much fun as I did.

Yeah, I did. Keep in touch. Thank you all.