@SpiritofPines - Living the No-College American Dream - The Michael Girdley Show Episode 39

Hey, Michael here. Uh, welcome back to the Michael Girdley Show. Uh, another entertaining episode for you guys. Uh, today I had my first anonymous guest, uh, on the podcast. We talked for a bit over an hour about a bunch of topics. Uh, he is Pine Baron, who is, uh, one of the best, uh, I would describe it as, uh, irreverent posters, uh, on Twitter, uh, and somebody I love to follow. So, uh, younger guy for me, uh, comparatively, but well on his way in his career and doing some cool stuff. You know, we talked about a bunch of different things, his journey to develop wealth and get into real estate buying. He and his partner bought a bunch of stuff. Why be anonymous on the internet? I thought that was another interesting one we talked about, as well as why do people trust corporations so much these days and which corporations do we trust? So I think that covered it all, man. I had a good time talking to Pine. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed making it. So Thanks for being here, and here's the episode. Hey, Michael here. Uh, today's sponsor, uh, is Harbor Capital. Uh, so Harbor Capital is a firm located up in Austin, uh, and they are a real estate private equity firm that focuses specifically on light industrial assets across the state of Texas. So, uh, Levi and his team, I've got to know them pretty well, uh, having worked with them as an advisor over the past several months. And excited to have them sponsor today's episode. So, you know, what they do is basically, you know, acquire these real estate assets using their own money and investor money as well, and then they manage them over time for cash flow and appreciation, hopefully with everybody winning throughout that process. So they're excited about what's going on, and I've seen what they're doing, and they're also building a portfolio designed to weather both the ups and downs of the economic cycle. So thanks to Levi, thanks to Harbor Capital for sponsoring today's episode and helping me on my never-ending quest to make the Michael Girdley Show a break-even podcast. Um, so excited to do that, and thanks again to those guys. Check them out at harborcap.com. Uh, and here, back to the episode. Uh, Barron, thanks for being here today and chatting with me.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I've really been looking forward to it.

Uh, well, I think we're gonna have a great time. Uh, you are my first, uh, pseudonymous— pseudo-anonymous guest. How do I pronounce that word?

Pseudonymous.

Pseudonymous. Who said you needed a college degree? You don't need one for— you could pronounce that word better than I can. Um, so yeah, so maybe start there. Like, you are a pseudonymous— pseudo-anonymous on the internet. Like, uh, what's— why, why are you— why are you doing it that way? Because I'm out, you know, like, people can find me. Like, I'm the opposite. So why are you— why have you chosen to do it this way?

Well, I think maybe the easiest way to describe it is optionality. You know, I was a big fan of Derek Sivers. You must know him, uh, who framed a lot of business decisions in the terms of optionality. So I figure I can always de-anonymize, but going the other direction is harder. And, um, Yeah, I think a lot of the value I can provide is being funny and brutally honest about the industries I'm involved with. And that can be tough, you know, because I'm boots on the ground. I'm running a marketing agency every day. I work with clients, some big clients, maybe some of your listeners will have heard of. And I want to keep running my marketing agency, but I also want to be able to say honest kind of contrarian things. So it's Pseudonymity felt like the best way to do that for now.

Yeah, well, it's interesting because I've— I know 3 people like you, and you're one of the 3, so— but who have started out as being, you know, pseudonymous. And like, I, you know, I know— I know you through DMs and stuff in real life and, and stuff like this, so I know who you are in real life, but most people don't. And the other 2 people who are in your situation have talked about becoming their real selves on the internet. And neither one of them has actually pulled through and done it. It's really interesting. Do you struggle with it at all, or are you just like, no, I'm good with exactly the way it is?

I wouldn't say I struggle with it. I definitely think about it. I don't want to commit to anything, but I think there's a good chance I'll de-anonymize fully at some point, but it may be a few years from now. I wonder if one of the people you're talking about is the Real Estate God. One of our Twitter friends.

He is somebody I know about. I am not friends with him, so I haven't— it's not that I'm not friends with him. He seems really nice. I just haven't connected with him. Also, like, I don't know, his self-branding is really inconsistent with mine. Like, I just, I'm not good at that kind of self-promotion. I think it's also Real Estate God, and then he lists the type of private jet in his handle, like a G6. And it's just like, okay, I— maybe we'll connect over something someday, but that's That's the opposite of Girdley ethos. Like, I am the last person to post a picture of myself in a private jet or talk about one. Like, that's just not the way I do stuff.

I will take ownership of anything I say, anything I've done. Um, but, and I know this is kind of like podcast bait, but I am genuinely concerned about cancel culture. And what I don't want is if I say something controversial, I don't want it to blow back on my wife or my business partners or employees and one of my companies. So this is, you know, the— I'm not saying it's the perfect solution, but this is one of the ways I've found to handle that.

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, like, so you think somebody in my situation is putting themselves at risk?

No, I mean, I— so, well, let me say this, Michael, I really admire you. So, you know, people who follow me on Twitter know that. I come from kind of a humble background. I don't have a bachelor's degree. I struggled for a long time before I started my businesses. And I didn't have great role models. So a lot of my role models have come from social media and listening to podcasts. And I think I really reprogrammed my brain when I was broke and struggling. And I just listened to a ton of Tim Ferriss and James Altucher and Tony Robbins. So let me just say that, and I put you in that category, Michael. So I mean, I'm really proud of what I've achieved. I'm a literal self-made millionaire. But, you know, I have a long ways to go. And I think you're, you know, you're a few steps ahead of me. So I think there's a big difference, you know. But there's a big difference in where you are in your businesses and your kind of wealth and portfolio and where I am. So that's part of what plays into it.

It's very kind of you. Also, the older I'm getting, the less I realize a lot of that stuff matters. Like today I was at lunch with 3 people from my CEO peer group and like we were talking about somebody that like, oh, you know, so-and-so just left their job and like this person, like I had worked with as a client like 15 years previous and you know, just hit me like. You know, this person has gone on to be, you know, whether, whether they've gone on to be successful or not successful, it doesn't really matter. Like, none of that stuff in the end really matters. And then I'm also at a stage in life where I'm starting to go to more funerals, and that's pretty eye-opening in terms of, like, you get past kind of the go-to— well, I'm, I'm past go-to, like, little friends' kids' birthdays stage, and I'm getting ready to get to friends' kids' graduations and then weddings. But then I'm starting to— a long parallel to that is you start to go to a lot more funerals. And like, I talked to my parents yesterday and like, they've gone to 3 in like 3 weeks, like, and people that are younger than them sometimes. So it starts to be kind of eye-opening for me in terms of just realizing all that stuff kind of in perspective. And then I think the second part is people are always like, Oh, well, like, it's always successful people talking that way. And I guess it's true. So then I hear myself talk that way and I'm like, oh, like, well, stop being such a faker. Um, so anyway, I don't know. Um, so I mean, this, this is something that's been top of mind for me. And I, I'd like to understand your opinion because you're from a different generation than I am, which is like, like, I'm Gen X, so like, I expect everybody to leave their personal societal views like at home. And like, you know, my buddy texted me this morning and he talked about Starbucks like agreeing to pay for abortion travel for their employees. And like, he's like, you should come to Dallas. Like, there's about to be a lot of opportunity here because people are going to be really pissed in Dallas at Starbucks. And like, what feels so weird to me was just like when I was a kid, people didn't expect corporations to do leadership on like societal and governmental Like, like that's the government's job, like to do politics and societal stuff. And I'm curious, like you coming from a different generation, like how do you feel about it? Like, do you think the way it's done now is right? And do you think us Gen X are just weirdos? Or like, is there some nuance of how we should think about that? Cause I'm, I'm kind of confused by it. I'm, I feel like kind of inclined to be like, keep that stuff at home, you know?

Well, it's, it's a good question. I'm obviously not a normal millennial for better or worse, so I'll try and separate my own thoughts versus what I see kind of from my peers. Um, also just to go really big picture for a second, I mean, you talked about, you know, the dangers of you being so out in public, but yeah, and I don't mean this as a criticism at all, I think you're really good at this. You manage to say real things and interesting things, but you also, I think, have a kind of a sense of like the line where, you know, if you cross over, you'll get into controversy with maybe dubious or negative results. So I think that's something you do very well. I think actually people don't realize how hard it is. I, you know, my own content is, I think, a little edgier than yours, but I still work hard even though I'm pseudonymous to stay out of topics that, you know, will only make people mad. So I think you're very good at that because most people who try to do it only end up spitting platitudes and it's boring and We just don't need more of that in the world. So that's my quick big picture thing to say. Personally, I don't like it.

Admittedly, I spend several seconds to longer going through stuff and being like, oh, is this going to get me canceled? And thinking through how all the ways that people think about it. Like I wrote a thread over the weekend on dealing with baby boomers. And it like, after I wrote it, I was like, this is some of the best work. This is really useful. Like, you should do this stuff. And like, like, what I forgot— and the thread did okay, it did like 1,000 likes or something like that, which is fine. Um, but what I forgot is like, oh, like, if I really wanted this thread to be like useful and to go viral, like, I had to go kiss baby boomer butts through the whole thing so they would retweet it and like it and share it with their kids. But I didn't do that. I was like, real. Um, so anyway, I, you know, it's, it's not only getting canceled. I also had to learn like, oh, like I got to speak to my audience and give them what they want, which is they wanted me to respect them through the thread, which the thread is basically like, you need to respect these people because that's what they value. But I didn't actually do it in the thread, uh, so I kind of screwed up the whole thing. But I do spend probably 10 to 15% of my Twitter time of writing stuff and being like, am I going to get canceled for this? And If it's borderline, I often don't send it. Like, I'm scared. Like, I don't want to.

Yeah, well, I think you've done an impressive job walking that line. Of course, there'll be mistakes and people who follow me might think it's funny because I do post some outrageous things, but I actually try to be careful too. You know, my brand's obviously different than yours, but, you know, careful readers will notice that. But yeah, to your original question about Starbucks, You know, I don't like it personally. I'm not afraid to say that. I think if you were to defend the position, it would be that large corporations have always shaped the discourse and shaped our values as a nation. So you could argue that this is a positive thing just because it's more honest, it's more out in the open rather than just Capitol Hill lobbying. So that, that's, uh, one thing I might think. I mean, The, you know, if you start having a more sophisticated, uh, view, uh, arguably more cynical view of, you know, where does power lie in our country, you know, you— it's not that controversial to say that these big corporations are major power centers.

Yeah.

Um, so maybe it's good to know where they stand.

I dig that. Well, okay, so just curious for you, if you had to stack rank, like like what organizations you trust the most in, in like America right now. Like, so where does like federal government, local government, bureaucracy, small business, large business, tech, non-tech, like how would you kind of stack rank those? Which do you, which do you implicitly trust the most?

Um, I mean, it'd be hard to say I trust any of them. You know, I like to think I have a good theory of, you know, it's like I trust the federal government to behave in certain ways. They don't necessarily help or hurt me. But yeah, I mean, I tend to like small business people. I like it aesthetically, philosophically. But, you know, when I recently hired a tree crew to cut down some trees on my property, and, you know, they way overquoted the price to me. So, right. But it's not that I don't trust them. I just, you know, I kind of know where we stand and what they're trying to achieve. And sometimes that helps me and sometimes it doesn't. So, yeah, I mean, in terms of like, who do I think will do a good job? I think, you know, like a lot of people in our orbit, I'm, you know, cautiously optimistic about Elon Musk and, you know, these kind of take no prisoners, break all the rules tech entrepreneurs, probably more so than any other power center compared to, say, academia or big media. So probably the most bullish on big tech in terms of actually doing good in the world.

Mm-hmm. It's interesting. I think a lot of people would answer exactly what you said, Apple. Like, I think a lot of people really trust Apple. And I think to some extent people trust corporations. You know, I was thinking about this after I tweeted it. I think they trust corporations because you know what you're going to get out of a corporation. You know what the motivation is. Whereas, like, you talked about the other end of the spectrum, which is like the lobbyists and smoke-filled rooms of the government. Like, you don't, you know, you don't know what's going on there. You know, Berkshire Hathaway has a big shareholder meeting, and you know what Warren Buffett tells you, and there's a pretty good chance that he and all the other people in the room want to make the most money possible. So you're like, yeah, I get this. Like, I know I'm going to get out of it, even though that's not necessarily what you'd respect and hope they would do. That's easier to trust than this smoke-filled room that you don't know what's happening.

Yeah. Well, and to your point, yeah, I mean, I am an Apple lifer. I've spent many, many thousands of dollars between my businesses and myself. And yeah, I feel like I know what I'm getting with Apple. It's, man, I don't want to go too far down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. It's interesting what Steve Jobs' widow is you know, doing with the Jobs fortune, which maybe I'm less, uh, enthused about. Uh, but Apple as a company—

what is she doing?

No, certainly. Yeah, well, she's just, you know, she's very active in supporting various causes and media outlets. She's the, I believe, the majority owner of The Atlantic. Um, so, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't want to go too much down those rabbit holes.

Yeah, yeah, no, I dig it.

Yeah, I mean, to your point, that's just to draw that contrast between Apple as a company which makes, you know, reliably nice UX hardware, and then the Apple fortune as a pool of money. And you don't know necessarily quite what they're up to, right?

Well, it is— I think I read it was one of the reporters for The Washington Post, and like he or she wrote this like article, like this op-ed, and it was like, why is somebody like Elon Musk trying to buy Twitter? Like, this is just the dumbest thing ever. It's not a good business idea. Like, you know what, it's not going to do anything with regards to anything for freedom or any of his businesses or anything like that. And I was like, didn't Jeff Bezos like buy the Washington Post? And don't you work for him? Like, he's the second— like, it was just the most obtuse thing like I'd read in a long time where somebody just wasn't thinking through why billionaires like want our own media platforms. Like, it just, it made zero sense. So I don't know. Any other thoughts on that? Otherwise, I want to ask you about Brooklyn Barbecue.

Yeah, let's, uh, let's talk about my own content, which, which I can speak much more confidently on than, uh, vast power structures.

Yeah, so I think you have chosen, uh, puro shitposting because, like, I looked at your tweets and like 90% of them I would describe as shitposts, and then the rest appear to be around kind of, um, more wealth formation and philosophy type stuff. Maybe that percentage is wrong, but there's a lot of shitposts in there.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love the art of a good shitpost and I like to think that I have a certain ethos and worldview that carries through even in the silliest tweets, but couching them in some humor or irony, people seem to like it. My account's grown a lot over the last year and I like it.

Um, so you, you had this tweet and it was a picture of pretty terrible barbecue and you, and you wrote something along the lines of, um, you know, say what you will, but where else can you get this kind of value like Brooklyn barbecue for $75 or whatever it was? And it went viral. So I don't know, I'm paraphrasing it. Maybe I should pull the tweet so I don't brutalize it. But, um, did, did I miss kind of the, the gist of it that you were joking about the expensiveness of Brooklyn barbecue and stuff?

Yeah, yeah, that's basically the tweet. It went super viral, I think recently over 125,000 likes and over 10 million views. Maybe the most important thing I can say about that post, and kind of like even in the shitpost, there's a method behind my madness. I, um, put a couple— it was really a thread with a couple more jokes after the initial post, but then the final post was a call to action to join my email newsletter. So, you know, I always say, you know, have a reason you're doing this or else you're just working for Twitter for free, you know?

Right.

So that was, you know, a lot of people go viral, catch lightning in a bottle, but it's like, what do you do with that once you have gone viral? So I got a good number of signups and web traffic, which was nice.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You know, the kind of common wisdom is that if you want to grow your follower base on Twitter, you write threads. Threads are the way to convert to more followers. Is it different, like if you're trying to convert for something else, like a newsletter? Does that kind of viral shitposting translate into good conversion rates for other stuff like your newsletter?

I mean, it's hard to say because, you know, my sample size is pretty small and I don't have a good A/B test with other Twitter accounts. But I just know my goal is to build my email newsletter, get my content out there, you know, get people more into my brand ecosystem. So, and I like Twitter and, you know, I'm pretty good at it. So that's, you know, I've just married those things to married those two things together.

And then so in terms of that funnel, right? So Twitter is your content engine and content marketing and then you're converting them into the newsletter and then what is your goal to do with them after that? Like you have a, I think I saw on the website you have a mastermind group. So that, is that a paid mastermind group that you want to convert people into at the bottom of the funnel?

Yeah, so we have an entrepreneur chat group. I really love it. It's a cool community. It's not a real moneymaker for us. It's, I think right now it's $9 a month, which, you know, just basically covers our SaaS costs. But, you know, we do think it's important people pay so they take it seriously. And there's a high level of discourse in there, which there is. It's, it's a great group I'm really proud of. Um, but that's really just, um, a way— like I said, it's not a meaningful moneymaker for my business. It's just a way to get people into our orbit and kind of see what they want and, you know, have a channel, uh, that we could launch more sophisticated products to, which we are developing a few. Um, and I've already started doing some business coaching with, with some of our members, which Again, it's not a significant moneymaker compared to my marketing agency, but I just really love it. You know, it's part of why I'm on Twitter a lot is I love hearing about people's businesses and sharing what's worked for me and trying to problem solve and improve things. So yeah, we're hoping to grow that. And we, you know, we have a couple coaching clients and a few consults. But yeah, I mean, it's— I try not to overthink these things. It's just like I've I love doing this. I want an audience and I want to come up with ways to help them. So it's right now it's really just on growing the audience and then I feel like the business side will follow.

Yeah. And your main, your main wealth creation vehicle at this point is, is working at a digital agency or you own the digital agency with, with other folks?

Yeah. So I'm a partner in a boutique digital agency. So I'll give you the Pine Baron biography real quick. So I have a main business partner I do most of these things with. He and I worked at a big digital marketing company, and we made a lot of money for that company, and not as much money for ourselves. So we quit and started our own agency doing similar work. And then when that agency was doing pretty well, we reinvest a lot of the profits into a rental real estate portfolio. So those are kind of my two main things. And then we also ended up partnering with one of our clients on an e-commerce store. So we typically just work with a few clients at a time. And we will typically also do revenue share, in this case, you know, become actual equity partners with the clients, which is a really cool way to work, at least for me. So yeah, so I run that digital agency, working on a few projects, some of which are revenue share, some of which actually have equity in, and then we have our rental portfolio.

Yeah. And so your business partner in the agency is also your business partner in the real estate. You have that?

Yeah, yeah, we've, we've been fortunate. I think that we work well together. And I think I've seen you, Michael, write about this, but, you know, definitely some risk in having a 50-50 partner. But because we're both, you know, kind of ambitious, and we both, you know, want to have a lot of irons in the fire, it would be tough for one of us to go off and do something when, you know, it would take our bandwidth away from our main stuff. So fortunately, we're kind of in similar life places, have similar goals. So yeah, we've partnered on the real estate and partnered on the e-commerce store as well. So you know, we're pretty much 50/50 across all of our main moneymaking ventures. And it's worked out thus far. You know, thinking back to when we quit together, it was a really risky decision. Like, I've heard about so many partnerships that have blown up. I tried to start a business years ago with a partner who was brilliant guy, really hardworking, really smart, and he got hit with health problems out of the blue. So through no fault of his own, you know, crushed a promising business. So Partnerships are definitely risky, but my current one has really worked out.

Yeah. Well, and do you guys have like a divorce plan if something happens? Say one of you gets sick or needs to get out? Or is that— you just hope that doesn't happen?

We have, you know, boy, I mean, we do have proper contracts with everything. And like I said, some of our ventures have other partners like this e-commerce store. So, you know, we have the proper boilerplate legalese. I still think it would be a disaster if it were to happen. But, you know, it's not just a handshake deal, but basically it's, you know, it really ties us together is good incentive alignment and similar goals.

Yeah. And then what is, what is the strategy on the real estate? So they're all residential single-family homes or how are you guys going about that?

Small multifamily units.

Okay.

So we have like some fourplexes, a fiveplex, duplex. And the strategy was really just, we were doing well in the marketing agency. And we didn't really trust the stock market, or we thought we could do better on our own. So, you know, we were making good money, and we didn't want to put it into stocks necessarily, but we certainly wanted to invest. So It just felt like the best option at the time. And, you know, the last couple years kind of made us look smart, you know, like a lot of people who are buying small multifamily. So yeah, it's worked out pretty well. But it was, you know, we're both very like move fast, break stuff people. We're just like, we have this pile of money, we don't want to put it into the stock market. And hey, rental, you know, small multifamily looks good. That was kind of the extent of it.

And did you do the, you know, buy, refi, you know, as prices ran up, invest in more deals kind of game? Or how are you guys— have you guys structured kind of the properties in that way?

That was kind of the plan, but we just kind of, we really take it deal by deal. And we just, you know, for each of our deals, we kind of it kind of lined up with, you know, having some success with a marketing client. So it really just ended up being, you know, if we had a good, good month, good quarter in the marketing business, we buy a deal. And that was that. And, you know, now we're exploring refinancing some of the properties. But with, with how rates are, it's, you know, it's not clear what the optimal move is.

Yeah, it is interesting. Part of me is like, looks at these people that are complaining about the rates and I'm like, you know, guys, if your deal didn't— went from underwriting well to not underwriting well when interest rates went from 5% to 7% on your deal, maybe you shouldn't have been doing the deal in the first place. And that's kind of— that's kind of my cynical Gen X talking about it. But I tend to have that feeling multiple times during the day when I'm— when I'm looking at Twitter and people are like, my deal doesn't work anymore. It's like, well, are you sure it was a really good deal from the beginning, given all that? So I don't know. Or do you think I'm just old and angry?

Well, I, you know, all of our deals are like in good shape with their current financing. And it's just, it's not clear to me that like refi versus 1031 is the optimal outcome. And frankly, I'm busy with my other business ventures. So sure, you know, part of why we bought the real estate is you know, we're, we're a revenue share marketing agency. So we can have really, really good months and really, really bad months. So part of why we bought it was just to kind of smooth that out and have some more reliable income month in, month out. So, you know, I'm not necessarily always going to take the balance sheet optimal decision. And this is what's nice about just having one partner is, you know, who I'm on the same page with. You know, we don't have a lot of investors that we have to placate. So we can kind of just say like, Hey, you know, we're probably leaving a little money on the table, but you know, the marketing agency is up and down. So we'll just keep collecting that cash flow and focus on the other projects for now.

Yeah. Yeah, I dig it. And then, so one thing I wanted to talk to you about, like a lot of people that I see that run digital agencies in particular, like tend to struggle. Um, and there's people that do it well, but there's a lot of struggling because it's feast or famine, like you're talking about. Like what, you know, what is your opinion on that feast or famine? Cause I think the second part of this is there are parts of digital marketing agencies that I think are really good businesses. Um, at least looking from the outside, like they have recurring high margin revenue, like, like people need them. They're a must-have. And then there's some of it where it's like project work, building somebody a new website. Right. And, and you look at that and it's one time you got to spend up all these resources and it doesn't scale very well. So like, you know, how have you guys thought about making a digital agency less fragile compared to say what I've heard from other people? Or, and you can also just tell me I'm looking at it totally wrong as I think about the universe of digital marketing.

Well, no, you're completely right. And the answer was buy real estate because it is so up and down and it is so feast and famine. And we realized we weren't built— I mean, really, we're so— we're not a typical agency where, you know, you and I have talked about this, Michael. We're in direct response marketing. And we do some very niche-specific things that, you know, we can charge good money for because it's just such a specialized skill set. And we have a good track record of success. But I mean, it's similar to more conventional digital agencies in that it is feast or famine. And really, we're just well-paid consultants. You know, we're structured as a business. We have contractors, we have one full-time employee. But it's really an entity for us to, you know, we still are trading our time for money. And we're not really building an asset. You know, people have asked me, why don't you sell your agency? And it's like, well, it's not worth that much without me and my business partner. So I think the business model is inherently limited. But, and that's why we're diversifying into, you know, our own brand and email list and our real estate portfolio. And I mean, I love the work and it can pay really, really well with, you know, revenue share because these things are so scalable. But yeah, it's not a legacy business. It's, it's not something that you can really scale or build a sellable asset. So, and I'm, Yeah, so rather than try and fix that, I'm just gonna keep doing it because I enjoy it and the money is good, but I am diversifying into other stuff. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, no, I dig it. And so at some point, do you, do you, do you get past having to work for a living and just focus on real estate entirely? Or what, what's the long-term path of where you go with this?

Yeah, well, the— so I really enjoy you know, making content. And that kind of came about by accident, you know, just being on Twitter to vent and then getting a bit of a following and then starting an email newsletter. So I'd love to get into more content and, you know, like talking to you, doing podcasts and doing more business coaching. The funny thing about the real estate is everyone warned me about it, but it is by far the easiest business I've ever been involved with. Like, it's, you know, it's certainly not passive, but it's way easier than anything I've ever done in internet marketing. You know, stuff kind of fits your spreadsheet or it doesn't. You either have the money or you don't. Like, I will agonize over a digital marketing campaign, you know, getting every word right, the emotions of the customer, the timing. But, you know, real estate, it can be stressful, but there's no decision that really takes me more than a couple minutes. You know, we can either afford it or we can't. It fits our financial model or it doesn't. And, you know, we use third-party management. So, you know, we're obviously, you know, sacrificing some upside for that, but the real estate has been fairly easy. So, and I like to stay active and start new things.

So it is interesting how, you know, how a lot of the folks that I grew up with have ended up in real estate and done incredibly well. And you're right, like kind of the book smarts are not applicable. Like they're really not essential at all. It's a lot of people smarts and, you know, there's a lot of folks that were very good at dealing with other folks, but the spreadsheet stuff, like, nah, they're not doing that, but they're killing it. Like, well, especially the past few years doing exceptionally well. So there's some beauty, there's some beauty to that business. You know, do you think there's a danger to it? Like every time I see somebody who's like, this business is easy, like that's a red flag that it kind of scares me, but it's just the universe of real estate so big that we, we shouldn't be scared. It's, it's naturally protected. Is that kind of how you think about it?

I don't think there's any more danger than any other industry. So no, I don't think it's uniquely dangerous. It's just not. And let me make a distinction between what I do, which is, you know, buy and holding with business partner I work with a lot. Like obviously if you're dealing with investors and LPs and GPs and contracts and you know, it's— that is a full-time job, I'm sure a challenging one. But, uh, you know, to just kind of do this buy and hold investing has really been surprisingly easy to me. Yeah, I'm not— I shouldn't even say easy. When I say easy, what I really mean is it just doesn't take up that much of my bandwidth compared to other stuff I do. Yeah, so that's what I really mean.

You know, for a lot of people on the internet, the strategy that you have is very much one that, and please don't be insulted by this, but it's a pretty conservative one. Like you don't have many employees, you're buying a relatively safe asset class and you just have a buy and hold with a reasonable percentage of debt on each one of these properties. Like, A, do you think that you're, you know, in a relatively like modest, like lower risk, like approach of what you're doing stuff? What in, in terms of compared to what other people are doing? And do you agree with that or you disagree with that? Because that's kind of how I feel when I listen to you talk. I'm like, oh, like you're not swinging and doing a bunch of really risky, complex stuff that could put your life in jeopardy.

Yeah, no, it's a very conservative strategy. I'm happy to admit that, you know, I've taken some bold, aggressive actions like quitting a good day job with a good salary and good commissions. But it's, you know, Like I said, I used to be really broke. I struggled really bad for a couple years, uh, living in bad neighborhoods and stuff. And, and, uh, yeah, it's like now that I've had some success, you're gonna have to pry it from my cold dead hands. Like, I know I'm, I'm very conservative, and, you know, I, I don't have a lot of crypto exposure, these small tech stocks that are killing people right now. So yeah, no, I'm happy to admit, and, you know, I, I still get some excitement, like because I do these revenue share marketing campaigns, you know, if one were to really take off, you know, it could literally make millions. So that's like a nice high upside thing. And then yeah, the rest of my portfolio being, you know, some conservative index funds and buy and hold real estate feels good. Like I have, I feel like I have that balance.

Yeah. So what I mean, what in your background or growing up makes you that conservative? Because a lot of times people come from very modest means and then they decide to overcompensate the other way. You know, it sounds like you're, you're not doing that. So like, as you've introspected on it, like, why, why this as opposed to some of the other paths out there?

Well, it's funny to hear you call it conservative because again, I think you're completely right. But yeah, if I talk to like my family members or people I grew up with, you know, they think what I'm doing is crazy risky. It's like, you're going to be a landlord, you know, what if you get sued? What if the, you know, what if the bank demands all your money? And, you know, obviously, you're a veteran investor, businessman, so you understand these are fairly conservative plays. But it's funny, like in my normal life, I actually, you know, people think I'm crazy and super risky.

Really?

You know, I think it does. Yeah. Your average person is not, you know, in small business circles, thinks it's crazy to be a landlord, at least the ones I talked to.

Yeah.

And I guess that's where some of the alpha comes from.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was just gonna say to your original question. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't think it's a, you know, you don't have to be a great psychologist to crack the code. I just, you know, I graduated high school and basically got kicked out of my house and went on to sell cars and play poker and you know, lived kind of an adventurous, interesting life, but it wasn't easy. It was pretty scary and stressful at times. So it's, yeah, I think it's pretty simple now that I've, I've had some success. I'm, I'm really careful to protect it.

Yeah, it's super interesting. Well, it also, I mean, it also highlights what you just talked about. It highlights a real danger in life, I think, that, you know, your peer group can get pretty narrow and limited over time. Right? And, you know, you end up hanging out with people that are of a similar mindset, similar socioeconomic status, similar career path. And it's easy to forget, like, how much of the world is like the real world because your world starts to get pretty fake, you know? And I'm not a member of a country club, but that's kind of like the extreme example where it's like, no, all my friends go to the country club. We all play golf, we all drive BMWs, you know, we all have oil field inheritances. And that's just the way That's just the way the world works, don't you understand? Everybody gets to eat cake. And I think it's a real danger to kind of forget that there's a whole big world out there. And like, I had, you know, I joined, I recently joined like a competitive bicycling team. It's really fun. Like, they're all Mexican Americans, like Mexican immigrants, so everybody speaks Spanish but me, which is awesome. There's a few other Anglo guys, but it's pretty great. But we go for a ride last week and like I stopped to get some gas and like a gas station tuna fish sandwich. It was delicious, by the way, at like a gas station on a really rough side of town. And like everybody, when I walked in there, like looked at me like I was an alien. Like it was like so cool because I was like, oh yeah, like I got to remember, like coming from my side of town, like you can't forget that this like exists. Like there's a whole different set of lives that people are living, you know, across the, across the city. And anyway, I don't know why I just thought of that, but it was like super cool to be eating a gas station sandwich on the wrong side of town. And extra bonus, I did not get sick.

So yeah, I was gonna say, talk about risky investments. My gosh, I would not touch a fish sandwich at a gas station.

The innovations in tuna fish sandwiches have been good. So there's some things you want to do if you're buying a gas station tuna fish sandwich. Number one, check the date. That's the most important thing. You're interested— like, you don't want to be past the expiration date. Number 2, you want to see when you get it, is it actually cold? Because if it's not cold, that's also— that's bad news, because a lot of times they're in those open front freezers. So you got to be careful with that. Number 3, and this is a— this is a tricky pro move with the gas station sandwiches: you want salty gas station sandwiches. Why do you want them to be salty? Salt kills bacteria, so that increases shelf life. Those are the things to go for. Number 4, you have to be very careful. You want to get very basic ones with not too much mayonnaise because mayonnaise is like a petri dish. You got to avoid that. So yeah, there is an art to picking gas station sandwiches and I have honed it in over years of safely going into Circle K and feeding myself with a tuna fish sandwich. So highly recommend that anybody at home could take that advice if they want.

That's your viral Twitter thread right there. That's probably the most actionable content we'll get out of this episode. That's great.

So anyway, there's number 5, but I didn't want to keep going. Number 5 is look for, look for a brand. Like, you don't want the generic ones. Look for a brand, you know, something that looks like they're kind of mimicking something fancier. You pass those 5 checks, you're going to be in good shape, uh, and get through without any kind of salmonella or those kind of poisons. There you go.

I appreciate it. So to, to go back to your, uh, your question at first, I mean, I'm not that far removed from, you know, being like super poor and struggling. So I hope to have the problem where I have to, you know, I need some connection back to the real world, but it's still pretty top of mind for me. I was only middle class very briefly. I went from being, you know, super poor to making, you know, top percentile money fairly quick. And I can talk about that a little more because I think it's kind of an interesting journey, but I think people will be interested.

I'm definitely interested. So yeah, let's do it.

Basically, yeah, I went from high school to work in various blue-collar jobs. I did do a little community college. So it's not true that I have like no college whatsoever. And I come from an educated family that probably should have been affluent. I came from an affluent suburb, but my family struggled when I was growing up. So yeah, I had kind of a weird— yeah, I don't mean to say, you know, I'm from the deep ghetto and, you know, I made some— it's like, no, I came from a nice suburb. Most of my peers were, you know, affluent, went on to prestigious colleges, but my own family kind of struggled. So, um, I— college wasn't really in the cards for me. There was no money for it. Um, and then, yeah, so I went on to sell cars, um, and play poker. And I always say poker was my MBA.

Yeah.

Um, it was such a valuable learning experience. I kind of had to control your emotions, how to manage a bankroll. One of the truly great lessons of poker is you don't have to be the best player in the casino, you just have to be a good player at your table, you know, so pick the right table where you're not outclassed, where you're comfortable with the stakes. So that was really good. So obviously, I was always interested in being an entrepreneur and being financially successful, but I didn't have the social capital, I didn't have the college network. So yeah, I kind of just talked my way into a tiny marketing agency by showing up at a networking event and then just doing tons of spec work for people. You know, I'd track down people on LinkedIn and Twitter and say, oh, I saw this side hustle you're trying to start. I made you a website or I made you a Twitter account for it. Just really hustling. And the funny thing is the work was garbage because like I had no background in digital marketing. And the guy who finally gave me a good white-collar marketing job, he basically told me, he's like, this is so terrible. I could never use this, but obviously you're like a smart, ambitious guy. So I'll hire you and get you in the door, but you need to learn how to do this for real.

Yeah. So when I talk to people and I'm like, hey, they're like, hey, how do I get a job in VC? Or in private equity, or like, I try to explain to them the, like, figure out some strategic and smart ways to kind of set yourself apart. And the simplest one is to like start doing the job before you get the job. And I think the number of times I've had a young person who comes to me and says, hey, I want to be a venture capitalist, right? Which, I don't do full-time or even that much part-time anymore. But like I tell them, okay, like you don't have the right degree for this. You don't have any of this stuff, but like what you need to do is go out and like just start doing the job, like start doing it in public. And that can be as simple as like start a newsletter and find 2 deals a week that you like from seed startups and feature them and do analysis like memos on them and publish them on the internet. And I think I'm like 0 for 10 on explaining that to people. And getting them to actually do the work and prove that they can. Um, so I'm curious, like, do you think that's the— well, it seems like you innately knew that that was the right path to, like, hustle and go create it and, like, give before you expect the universe to pay you back. And I was like, I'm curious, like, how did you know? And why does my advice keep falling flat when people keep asking me for the same thing? Because I keep telling them how to do it and they're like, huh. Like, I don't— they don't do it. They just disappear. So what, what, what did you know right? And what did I— or am I explaining it poorly? It could be. What would you advise me in terms of fixing this? That's what I talk to people.

Well, I certainly think it's the right path. I mean, it literally changed my life, you know, going from like taking odd jobs, moving furniture, and yeah, um, to, you know, having a pretty successful white-collar career. So I certainly think it's the right thing to do. And a few people have done it to me now. You know, they've seen me talk about it online and people have sent me spec work and I've ended up hiring some of them off Twitter. So that's pretty cool. So I've really tried to pay it forward as well. And with the same charity that was shown to me is like, actually, this works not that good. I can't use it. But like, I see you're being ambitious and thinking about it. You know, you're thinking about it the right way. So yeah. In terms of why it worked for me, I mean, it's— I'm sure you know the infamous, I think it's the Bear Stearns memo where they said they wanted PhD analysts, poor, hungry, and desperate. Yeah. And I really was like, it felt like a matter of life and death to me. You know, I, I've shared this a little online, but, you know, I was living with a girlfriend, a bad neighborhood and a tiny apartment. And when she dumped me, I had to go live on my friend's couch for a couple months. Months, you know, because I was so broke and struggling. So to me, you know, getting into the white collar world, you know, it felt— I'm not saying it was literally a matter of life and death, but it felt like that. It felt like a matter of survival. So, you know, send 10 LinkedIn messages, no one responds. Then I send 20 and then 50 and then 100 and then 200. And it's just, there was no world where I would have stopped. And then you know, kind of just intuitively from that, how do I stand out amongst the crowd? I need to bring something to the table. So I kind of just worked it out myself, but it came from a place of, you know, just genuine intensity. And I think maybe some guys, they just, you know, I hope they have good lives, I hope they have loving families and a bedroom to move back in if things don't work out. But the flip side of that is, if you're competing with a guy like me who's treating it like a matter of life and death, you know, it's It's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough to stand out.

So one data point I've been just kind of noodling in the back of my head, I don't know if you've seen this, but the average testosterone for American males has been going down to like the lowest level in like forever. Have you seen these data points?

I do follow that and it's disturbing to me.

Yeah. Well, it has me like, um, you know, has me wondering like what the hell's going on. And then second, second order is like, How much of that kind of— how much of that just biology in our environment is affecting people's either lack of hustle or not? Because I think what you're describing and what I'm describing is kind of go demonstrate you have hustle and then people will flock to you for hustling about stuff. And, I wonder if the average American hustle is decreasing and I wonder if we should blame that on environmental or even this kind of idea of what the hell is happening to our testosterone. Because I mean, I think this— the last point I'll make on this is I have seen what's happened to me as I'm getting older, and I can see my like testosterone going down. By the way, it's awesome. If I look back at the things that made me unhappy in my 20s, I know what they were all caused by— testosterone. I am much happier now being, being closer to a blank slate. Um, so I know I like it, but it— in the other end of the spectrum, like that drive that comes in people from the right hormones being imbalanced as a younger person, like, it makes some magic happen, right? Um, so I don't know, I, I'm just spouting about a bunch of data. I don't know if there's anything to tie these together, but it has me kind of scared and maybe, maybe questioning whether it explains why so many people just sit on their butt. Like, I, I don't know. Anyway, do you have any thoughts about that entire screed I just gave?

Well, I mean, I, I think you're 100% right. I think it's dead on. And if you venture into the more contrarian or dissident parts of social media, it's a hot topic of discussion. Not that I recommend you do that, but yeah, I mean, I think it is a big deal. I've taken great pains myself, whether it's, you know, only wearing wool and cotton clothing or, you know, moving to a small town where our water comes from melted snow. So, you know, obviously you need some degree of affluence to take those steps, but, you know, lifting weights, Um, yeah, I've taken great pains to try and, you know, keep it steady in my own life, right? I mean, both the— you know, I think a lot, you know, it's very easy to say there's problems with the mainstream news or big corporations or— yeah, and then, but that doesn't mean the opposite of that is right. So, you know, you'll have to wait— if you get into the contrarian space, you'll have to wade through a lot of crap, but you can find these gems there. You know, and so I— and I like seeing what weirdos are talking about and trying to find the next thing. But yeah, a lot of it's crap that I will not defend for a second.

Well, okay, so in defense of bro Twitter, uh, I think it is order of magnitude better than crypto anon Twitter. Like, that is the worst. Like, it's the worst. I've gone— I've waded into that space where you have, uh, similar young men talking about crypto and how it's replaced their religion and stuff, that, that's worse. So it— I, I want to defend, I want to defend my, my folks. So we're cool.

I mean, crypto Twitter's hurt people recently. I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking. You hear some of these stories of people who bet more than they could afford to lose. So yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll hate on crypto Twitter all day long. They've just given such bad advice.

So many scammers, so many scammers. It's so sad. I mean, but I'll tell you what, it was fun when everything was going up for a while. I've done that 3 times now. Every crypto run-up, I'm like, like I've learned with like Bitcoin, for example, like you have to find that there's a moment where you go through the cycle of grief and like when you almost reach capitulation and then you give it a couple of months after that, that's when you know, like it's time to start buying again. And you'll start to hear— for me, the sign— and I, I'm totally advocating timing markets, just so you know. I'm not doing my entire net worth with this strategy. I just think it's fun. But then when I start seeing people that are like outside of my core circle of like crypto hardcores start to talk about Bitcoin coming back or being useful this way, or NFTs, that's when you start buying. And so I've done that timing 3 times now, and I will tell you, right now sucks for Twitter or for crypto. But like, if you get in early and you do this strategy, it's fantastic. You just, you just work on the wisdom of crowds to come in and look for a gold rush. And we do it, we do it every couple years in crypto. So just, just hang around. But I— it is a lot more fun on the way up than it is on the way down. You're exactly right.

Yeah, well, give me the buy signal next time, Michael.

Yeah, I'll send out the back signal.

Um, I did catch Ethereum on the way up, um, and unfortunately I hadn't I just didn't have that much money to invest. So I had a pretty nice win with that, that actually paid for my house in the mountains, or at least the down payment. But I took profits and it was a little painful because it kept running after that. But you know, now I feel pretty good about flipping fake internet money into real, real estate money.

That's amazing. Congratulations. I can't think of anybody that deserves it. So Um, so one thing I do want to talk about, like, so you're, you're unabashedly, and I think to some extent, and correct me if, if you disagree with this, I think you're somewhat proud of like the way you've come through like not doing college education. And you've done a little bit community college, as you said, but like the, I think there, and I think there's no one path, by the way. I think, I think many paths can work, but like, I think what's, what has me scared is I see so many times now where people are pooping on college or, you even high school, and like, like they're conflating the idea of higher education with being an educated person, right? And like, like I worry that the more, especially millennial folks, um, and I'm sorry if I'm stereotyping there, but like folks who, who generally have a negative attitude towards higher education and the higher institutions of higher education, like I see so many of them actually saying like, oh, that stuff doesn't matter. Like college, college doesn't matter anymore. And it scares me that people are interpreting that as you shouldn't be a learning person, you shouldn't be trying to get educated about things, which is different than having a degree. So anyway, I was just curious, do you, do you see that danger? Do you think I'm just overblowing it because I'm an old curmudgeon? Um, or, and if so, do you like modify how you talk about stuff? Because I think I see, I just hear people interpreting it exactly the wrong, and it kind of scares me. By the way, my kids are going to college. They want to go because it's the most efficient way I can figure out to get them educated. And because I'm not doing it, I'd be terrible. But anyway, long screed about that topic. How do you think about it?

Yeah, well, I think you and I first really connected on social media kind of arguing about it. And it made me a little nervous because I'm like, ah, here's this successful businessman who I really admire and he's going to just block me because I'm disagreeing with it. And for those of you guys who don't know, this is a story I like— don't worry, Michael, I haven't told it to too many people. But we kind of joked about what a bad— you know, it's— don't invest a lot of money and go to a bad college. And Michael made up a fake one, West Bumkins State. So I'm—

yeah.

And I thought that was really funny. So I made a logo and a t-shirt for them. And I sent that t-shirt to Michael. So by the way, again, to like get in touch with successful people or building your career, it's like, that's the kind of stuff I'll do. I'll make a custom t-shirt and mail it to someone. So that's, you know, that's the kind of follow through. Now don't everyone mail Michael t-shirts all at once.

Oh, that's all right. They're busy mailing me Chili's gift cards. I get like one or two a month.

That's not too bad. But yeah, I mean, let me admit, certainly I'll say something incendiary about college to get attention. I'll be the first to admit that. It's something I actually believe, but I know what I'm doing. You know, I know I'm saying something attention-getting and incendiary. So, but a podcast is a good place to get more nuanced. And let me say, like, I'm really proud of the success I've had without college. I am not proud that I didn't go to college, because if I'm being honest, I was devastated, you know, when I was 17 and all my friends were going to prestigious colleges. And my family was just like, well, we don't have any money and you're kind of a bad student. So, so I certainly did not make the decision to not go to college. And if you said I could have gone to college at 17, I would have done it in a heartbeat. I mean, I was, I was devastated to not go. So I want to be very clear about that. My position now is that I think a lot of middle and lower tier colleges are not a good investment for average people. Which is the more nuanced position, like it's not a good ROI. And I also want to say, you know, not to toot my own horn, but like, you know, I was born with certain gifts, like I have a high verbal IQ, you know, I've written a lot of ad copy that can sell well. So the proof's in the pudding. And, you know, there's a lot of people like I didn't need to go to college because I had some innate skills that I was able to develop on my own. But, you know, if you're not born, you know, having a really good acuity for, you know, software engineering or writing ad copy like me, or, you know, it's, it's hard. And your average person didn't go to college, or, you know, the guys doing drywall on my rental units, it's not guys running digital marketing agencies. So I think I agree with you in a lot of ways. I also think even bad colleges are a nice thing to do. It's fun. So I'm not even a hater of going to a bad party college. I just think it's a really bad investment for most people, for most middle-class families, that the ROI is not good. But it's a nice thing to do if you can afford it. If you're successful, it's nice to, you know, it's good for kids to socialize in something that's kind of half the real world. So no, in general, I think it's a nice thing. It's just a lot of middle and lower-tier colleges are bad ROI. ROI.

You're not going to get an argument from me as the guy who invented West Bumpkin State. Uh, it is fascinating how poorly college is still implemented. Like, it has not evolved at all in terms of providing more value for kids, um, and for the parents, right? Like, it still blows my mind that they only go to school sometimes 6, 7 months a year. Like, Like, it's unbelievable. Like, that's how much we ask, like, a kindergartner to go to school, and we can't ask— we can't ask a 19-year-old to maybe, I don't know, go 11 months out of the year? Like, how hard is that? Like, plenty of 18-year-olds are working, you know, quick service restaurant jobs and working 50 hours a week, you know? Like, how can— how come we can't ask a 19-year-old, like, who's spending all this money, to get it done in a faster period of time? So I'm totally with you, you know. I just Um, man, I just really, I just really don't want to end up as part of a civilization or a country that just doesn't value being educated. Maybe we're already there, but that's the anti-college movement has me worried that people are going to dumb it down and just miss the point, which is you need to be educated. But if you're not going to do it through college, like, find another way. There's plenty of other ways. Um, so I'm totally with you on that. So I think we're violently agreeing. This is perfect.

And I, you know, I'm, I'm a fierce autodidact. I did do community college classes. I've just, I've always been a voracious reader. I, you know, bought courses and, you know, tons of books. And so, yeah, I'm certainly, you know, I've studied a lot of different things. It's just not in that formal context. And, you know, I don't want to speak above my pay grade here. You know, Michael, as you know, someone, you know, with kids who are going to be college age and all, you're in a very different position. So I can just, you know, speak to my own experience of, You know, and it's nice I have zero student loans. So, right. You know, so that's a nice bonus. Kind of let me, let me throw a monkey wrench at your thing real quick, which I'm not even saying I believe this, but I think college accurately sets people up to work for big companies. So I think a lot of the problems with college are the same problems you find in big companies. So there's a sense in which part of your education is learning to deal with those bureaucracies. Because that's what's going to come next for a lot of them.

Yeah, well, I think there's— you see it often, there's good Twitter threads and like, like blog posts that talk about how actually all the things you do in a, in like college are exactly the opposite of what you should do in the real world. Like, in the real world, like cheating is how it works. Like, you get to do things with open book, like it's collaborative, like you don't, you know, nobody's giving you a grade for everything you do, like It's exactly the opposite of how the real world works. And, you know, I agree with you. Like, I think that, you know, I think that there's a way to reimplement college in a way that prepares you better for the modern world. Because, I mean, realistically, the college system that we have, if you go back and look at the history of it, it was basically designed to season well-off English gentlemen so they could come back and be entertaining at cocktail parties and talk about Yates or, you know, Edgar Allan Poe or whatever, right? Like, like that is really the system we're still running and it is so inane. That's, that's exactly the way it works. Now you would say, okay, well, why hasn't anybody, uh, actually changed this? It's because it's really difficult with the way the accreditation system works in the U.S. Are you, are you familiar with how the accreditation system works in the U.S.?

No, and that's why I'm deferring to you.

Okay, so here's how it works. If you want to charge money, tuition, for a— to run a higher education institution, you have two options. You can send people to private lenders and say, okay, well, figure it out, or they— you only get wealthy parents, right? Um, you know, unfortunately, education has been subject to what is called Baumol's cost disease, uh, which is often caused by— calls by slightly other names, but this guy Baumol went through And he saw that when you had, say, you had situations where the productivity in other sectors of the economy would negatively affect wages in your sector of the economy. So for example, like if wages start to rise in pure tech, you have to raise the wages for, say, computer science professors in university. Otherwise they're all gonna leave and they're all gonna go teach Or they're all going to go work at tech, right? So that's Baumol's cost disease, like, in practice. So what happens is, is you have America getting more affluent, and it is basically impossible to run a university these days, either without government money coming in through the form of student loans, or if it's like a state system, through direct money coming in. And I know this because I own a business that does, like, education, like, and we get people jobs. And so you have a situation here where, okay, well, you're forced to do this, otherwise you don't have a viable business because you can't basically— you basically can't bring in enough revenue to support all the people you need to have working and running one of these organizations. And then you're like, great, okay, well, let's innovate. Well, here's the problem. The accredit— to get, to get those loans or to get qualified for that, you have to go get accredited. And the accredited bodies say this is the way college works, and you and you have to do it exactly this way and you can't innovate if you want to stay accredited. Thank you very much. Hire some PhDs. We'll see you later. So you have this like system where the regulation has made it virtually impossible for somebody to do high-level disruption or even innovation in place inside of these organizations. So it's a mess and it actually all comes from regulations in the Fed. So.

Well, I think what I'm hearing and what I kind of suspected Is that, uh, it's just the incumbents are so enormously powerful, you know, like the big colleges. Um, just, yeah, they enormous regulatory capture. They don't want the competition and they can afford to squash it.

Oh, I think, I think many of them would be more than happy to change. Um, but it's virtually impossible with, with the way the federal regulations work. It's incredibly difficult. It's incredible.

So you think it's kind of like bureaucratic inertia, uh, like some degree?

Well, there's— for sure, I would say that's exactly right. Um, and there is it, you know, it's not like there's some Machiavellian thing happening where like Wall Street is like getting, you know, capturing, you know, um, economically capturing the SEC. Like, I don't think that's happening. I think there is just this equilibrium where it's happened where like, you know, the people that are in these universities, like, you go talk to them, the admins and stuff like that, they want to do a better job. Like, but the environment that's created around them, like, they can't. So I, I don't think there's like the kind of economic capture that you're talking about, regulatory capture that you're talking about with higher ed, uh, like there is, say, with the Wall Street stuff. And maybe that's me just defending them, but like, I've talked to those people. They're not, they're not doing like the Goldman merry-go-round into the SEC. Like, it's not, it's not, that's not happening.

Sure. Yeah, I, I mean, it's interesting to hear you talk. Like I said, I, my My experience is that I didn't go to college and I was able to find some success, but, uh, I did struggle pretty bad for a number of years. So I'm, I'm certainly not anti-college as a whole, but just think it's bad ROI for a lot of people.

Oh, I, I'm totally with you. Like some of these colleges, don't go. Like they're bad. I totally agree with you. Um, but I think you're a testament to like what it takes to get ahead and colleges has not been and. And it's not been for a while, you know, a golden ticket to have a great life. Like you have to do more than that because it's just become so democratized. Like you have to do what you did and go hustle, make things happen, you know, save and be like, live below your means, right? Like that's what you have to do to get ahead. And colleges, you know, despite what the baby boomers believe, is not the path to get there. It could be a tool. But it is what you make out of it. It's not like a golden ticket anymore. So I'm totally with you.

The live below your means thing is so funny because I didn't even really do that on purpose. But, you know, and again, it's like kind of the— while my investments are very conservative, I've been pretty aggressive with them. So, you know, I've been going over my taxes for last year and I spent literally every penny I made, a little bit more on real estate. So we basically just lived off some stock investments I had. So, you know, I had a good year last year. But you know, my poor wife is like, wait, where's, where's our Porsche Cayenne and our, you know, membership to the local country club? Like, I was like, well, you know, I think in a few years, we'll be really glad we bought these rental units. But it is a little painful to like live well below your means, which, again, wasn't so much a conscious decision. It's just I saw good deals popping up and hopped on them, and then before you know it, I'd literally spent every penny I made from my business, my marketing business. So I'm sort of proud of that, but it is painful to be like, oh yeah, why aren't I living the good life right now?

So can you give me a rough idea of how old you are?

I am in my young 30s.

Okay. Yeah. So I just, I would share from my experience being 15 years ahead of that. So I'm in my late 40s. I am very thankful that I lived super frugally through my 30s. Like it is, it is such a powerful thing to letting the snowball, you know, the Warren Buffett snowball go. Like, I think it's great. Like, I love, I love that I played it that way because it gives you so much more flexibility. Power. And then also, surprisingly, I think the knowledge that you have the discipline and maybe you don't even really need that stuff. Like, every time I'm like, maybe I should go buy the expensive car or whatever, I'm like, nah, it's not gonna make me happy. And I still drive like a 2017 Subaru. So anyway, that's just the data point I'll give you.

Subaru poster. No, it's good to hear that. And I like, I know it was the right decision, but Um, I mean, it is a little tricky to strike a balance sometimes. I mean, there's always the thing you can get hit by a bus tomorrow, so, you know, don't delay everything you want to do. But the big things, like— and, you know, I was kind of tweeting about this recently, but it— there's nothing like flying on a small plane to make you, like, assess what you've achieved in life. I'm kind of a nervous flyer, I'll admit it. Like I said, I was broke for a long time. So I didn't travel much. But it's like, I, if I were to die, like, there's so much more I want to achieve. But the really big things like quitting my job and starting a business, moving to the mountains, proposing to my wife, like, there's nothing I feel that like I haven't done that I could have done at this point. So there's so much more I want to do. But like, those are the things I can really hang my hat on is like I You know, I went after my dreams, I've started achieving some of them, and, you know, so I, yeah, I don't have any regrets. And that's why I want to make money is, you know, really as a proxy for freedom so I can live where I want and, you know, raise a family and, you know, live my dream life.

So yeah, super cool. So I think, I mean, that's my life goal too. Like, I just want to live my best life. So it's cool to hear you say it. Sounds pretty awesome. So thank you for spending the last hour and now 10 minutes with me. Super, super generous of you. You know, how can I support you? How can any and all of my listeners support you in your journey? Follow along. What would be best for them to know?

Yeah, well, first off, just having me on was so awesome. Like I said, I really admire you, Michael. A lot of us other younger entrepreneurs, you know, there's a few people we follow and you're first among them. So love from our entrepreneur community and we really appreciate your content. So our chat group, which I'm really proud of, we share really great content. It's all under this brand WealthPin. Our website's wealthpin.com. That's being built right now. So we share the best stuff in the email newsletter. So my main plug is just go to signup.wealthpin.com. So that's W-E-A-L-T-H-P-I-N. Yeah, I'm really excited to grow this content brand and just coach people up, share what I've learned. And we actually recorded our own first podcast. We'll see where that goes, me and my business partner. So yeah, I just, I really love doing this content and people, you know, can follow me on Twitter @SpiritOfPines. And I always try and respond to DMs, you know, whether you're paying member of the group or not. And, you know, I struggled and people gave me a chance coming up and it's really important to me to try and pay that forward.

Super awesome. All right, man. Thanks for doing this. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.