The Demolition Business - Sam Bacon, CEO of Green Circle Demolition

Hey, Michael here. You will now hear some episodes of the Michael Girdley Show that we had branded differently, called Unusual Profits or some such like that. Same show, same person, just me interviewing people and producing content that could be helpful on your journey and mine as well. So with no further ado, here's the episode. Hey, Michael here. Sponsor for today's show is actually a product that I'm a part of called DM Bridge. And what DMBridge is, uh, is a service that we built, uh, to solve the problem that Twitter's direct messaging functionality is a total mess. So we built DMBridge to help you fix that. Um, a lot of the other solutions, uh, do things like requiring you to install a whole nother inbox. We didn't want another inbox, so we created DMBridge. And what it does is it takes all of your Twitter DMs and has them appear inside of your email inbox. So you can reply to them just like it's a regular email. You see them just like it's a regular email. You can search them later like it's one of your regular emails, all just by using DMBridge. So, uh, we're currently live with the product. Uh, would love for you to sign up and become a customer, uh, and check it out. So you can find that at dmbridge.app, uh, and go on there, put in your name, uh, and be either part of the beta or join us as part of the live use of the product. And again, check it out, dmbridge.app. All right. Welcome to the How My Business Works podcast. I am your host, Michael Girdley, and we are back for another week to talk about the fascinating world of demolition. And I've got a great guest today, Sam Bacon, who joins me from the lovely city of Atlanta, where I'm told it's not raining, unlike here in San Antonio, where it has gone Total Swamp on us. So Sam, welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you, glad to be here.

Yeah, so you've got some cool stuff, but would love to— before we dig into it, love to give you a chance to introduce yourself to the audience. Give us like a 1-minute thumbnail sketch of your career and, and how you got into getting paid to bust things down in the world of demolition.

So, uh, I graduated from college— I went to Georgia, graduated college with an accounting degree, never used it, uh, as Probably evidenced by my current career choice. And I moved to Colorado, worked for some developers, moved to York, worked for some more developers. '08, '09 hit, my dad got sick. I moved back to Atlanta, worked for some more developers. And then I hooked up with a guy through a friend that was in the demo business, had sold out, his non-compete was up. And it was just a time of low opportunity overall in the real estate sort of development space outside of distress. And, uh, I hooked up with him for about a year. Um, he ended up getting an opportunity to go to Colorado and kind of retire with his wife. And so after that, you know, just started doing it on my own. So it wasn't, you know, not really a family thing, not really, you know, just kind of a, you know, you just kind of bounce around until you find something that sticks. And, you know, I kind of learned the business from a guy that'd been in it and then just kept doing it on my own.

Yeah. So the name of the company is Green Circle Demolition, right? How'd you come up with a name for that?

Wish I had a good name story. Honestly, I was, you know, right when we started, it was our thought was, look, we want to, we obviously want to maximize recycling. It's a big part of our business. And we want to, we want to have some kind of, you know, holistic kind of where we're going to take it from here and try to do the best we can with what we've been given on, on the materials reclamation side. And That was sort of the green side. And then we, at the time, I had partnered with a guy that had a material reclamation facility, a MRF, and that's sort of the full cycle of taking the material. Uh, you put it through a plant, you sort of reduce it to, you know, the different components that some that have resale, some that are just, you know, landfill cover, other stuff. But that was sort of the circle, like, we're gonna team up. He ended up going out of business and it didn't work out, the the dump fees in our region are so low, it's really, really hard to compete on the recycling side here versus a, you know, a California or a New York where you're paying a lot to get rid of the stuff. So it just, it's very difficult to make that work. But that was, that was sort of the deal is we're going to be the full circle, the green circle. We're going to take it and we're going to, um, you know, we're going to try to recycle at the max and all that. So that was the original, even though it didn't, didn't really shake out that way in the end. Um, we, we still recycle what we can, where we can, but it's that relationship is no longer there.

So. Got it.

Okay.

And then, so to understand how the business works at its core, so who is the customer for your company? It's developers who need to get something? Is that exactly who calls you?

It's kind of split, right? So there's— our scope is a scope. If you're a guy that goes out and buys a building that you know is not repairable, that's just functionally obsolete, you could reach out to us directly, right? But what happens about 80% of the time is they get a general contractor involved who is looking at the entire project saying, hey, you know, the demo is a really small part of the deal, but we want to put an apartment here. And so we end up most of the time working for that guy. Um, they provide the owner another layer of insurance protection, and they're sort of the subject matter expert on, you know, everything. And that's obviously dependent on the GC, how true that is, but You know, they really are the gatekeeper for a lot of our business. On the environmental side of our business, the general contractors typically are pretty scared. Uh, they don't like that exposure. Um, and we do almost all of that for owners directly. So even if there's a GC involved, if there's asbestos, lead, or mold, that almost always gets carried outside of the general contractor scope of work. So a lot of the time we'll be working on a job and we'll be working for both of them, same job. We'll be doing the environmental piece. For the owner or the developer, and then we'll do the demo for the general contractor. So it's a— that's, that's, you know, sort of the two avenues. And then there's sort of another subset of our business, industrial, that a lot of time that's sort of controlled by consultants, kind of, you know, big, uh, national consultants that sort of manage that work for them. And so that's sort of another customer base that we have to kind of reach out to and take care of.

Got it. And so, and then how many people do you have working for you now in the company?

We've got about 160 total, but that includes, you know, the office, the field, uh, our recycling facilities. We have secondary metals recycling facilities that process our scrap that we own and operate, um, the trucking division that runs the roll-off and open-top trailers. So that's, that's kind of everybody. It's, it's a pretty— you'll see if you kind of poke around in demo companies, There's some guys that are really focused, but there's a lot of guys that vertically integrate a lot of pieces because they just— it makes sense from a control standpoint. So like, if, you know, if we're doing an interior demo job where we just take, you know, you've got a restaurant, you want it to be, you know, some other use, a little office or a car wash or whatever it is, but you want to keep the bones of the building, you want to keep the structure, we've got guys that'll just go strip everything down and just leave you, you know, a cold gray shell to start over, right? Well, I'm, you know, the biggest component of that is labor. We got to pay the laborers to go in there and literally by hand pick every piece of material out. And if you don't own your own dumpster company and you've got 10 guys in a space waiting on a $350 dumpster, it's costing you a lot of money. So at one point you kind of get drug into some other ancillary businesses that you may or may not want to be in just because it costs you too much money in your core business not to have those assets. And you'll see that with a lot of different demo companies around that you need to be able to control your job and guarantee your schedule to your customer. You have to make those investments in non-core business as you grow.

Interesting. And so then when you've organized those different business lines, they seem like they're very cooperative, but to some extent also with the recycling, you're selling to other— your recycling plant, you're selling to other folks besides your company. So how have you organized those? Do you have general managers in charge of each of those, in each of the divisions?

Yeah, so the recycling is like 90% outside customers, 10%. So those are— they're standalone, and there's general managers at each of our yards that, that manage the flow. We, we buy a lot of auto at our yards. We have a pretty good population of, uh, you know, of independent tow operators that run in and around Atlanta that, that have a lot that, you know, are just out literally buying cars out of people's yards, putting them on a wrecker and dragging them over across the scale. And obviously, the commodity markets right now are as good as they've been in 15 years. And so we're seeing huge volumes in that business. It's been a real— I mean, it's been a banner year on the recycling side. That's been a really good side of our business this year.

Trey Lockerbie Yeah. Interesting. Well, I know there's one demolition company that I know of here in San Antonio, And the reason I know them is they put their sign on every job. And like, is that— is that the— are you marketing your business in a different way? But all I know is these guys, they're called Hansco. They're here in town. I think they went from one guy with a, what, a couple pieces of machinery that he was renting to like a big operation now.

Is—

are you doing other things beyond that at your scale and size?

Yeah, I mean, the, you know, so you— I mean, it's great to get, you know, throw the sign up, you know, you're out there doing the job. Somebody remembers you for that. But our market is pretty small. It's a pretty small and targeted— It's a lot of— Right now, post-COVID, we really didn't lose much in COVID, but the data center side of our business is huge. E-commerce has been huge. And one of the biggest changes honestly has been malls. I mean, the narrative around malls for a decade has been malls are dead. And I can tell you, we're tearing down 3 of them right now. And I mean, it was like within 90 days, we were seeing plans for malls all over that Amazon was going to convert to distribution, or that Epic Games was going to take and convert to their office, or that— I mean, that mall, it was just like someone flipped the switch and it's like, yep, malls are dead now. COVID killed the mall. Time to start tearing down malls. And we're doing one in Arkansas, We got one in Aiken, uh, that they want to get going on. We got another one in Atlanta that they're converting to a medical office use. I mean, the mall stuff, it's, it's really interesting because if you can get the zoning piece right, you've got huge amounts of parking, a massive footprint, and it can just— it can be a lot of, a lot of stuff, you know. So that, that piece is really kicked. So we've, you know, so we've been, we've been spending a lot of time marketing to people that are looking to redevelop malls, uh, into any use. And We've got good data we can give them on environmental costs on malls we just did a week ago. So it's really more of us trying to be a value add during the due diligence process with these guys so that we're in the game when it comes time for the game to start. It's really been some of our best marketing, quote unquote.

And so then for that kind of work, you have a business development team that's centralized, or are you the business development team?

Yeah, I mean, I do a lot of it, but, you know, we also— so it's, you know, demo is kind of a technical sales, you know. So we have found, you know, we've had guys that we brought in and said, hey, you know, you're a good business development guy, we're gonna put you out there. But I mean, people ask you questions like, how much is it going to cost to demo my building? And if you can't answer that question because you don't know the answer, then you sort of lose credibility quickly as you're kind of reaching out to people. So our sales guys, the estimators, They do a certain amount of business development every week, which is just kind of reaching out to core customers. And then most of our stuff is referrals. I mean, that's really where we're getting the bulk of our business is we did a good job for this guy and he knows another guy, and it's just staying out in front. We do a lot of LinkedIn, kind of just like top of mind sort of stuff. And we've tried a ton of stuff, but we found that it's really relationships and it's up to the guys that are out there beating the streets, trying to get the deals to to keep selling.

Well, and then how much of your geographically— so you're an interesting beast because you're this vertically integrated thing, right? You've got a trucking haul-off stuff, you've got the pure demolition stuff, you've got the environmental thing, and then you, you mentioned the recycling plants. Maybe there's parts of it I'm missing, but how much of it is Atlanta, Georgia metroplex, which is where you're located? And then you mentioned going to these other places too.

How do you—

how are you looking at it geographically in terms of your spread at this point?

We'll go just about anywhere for a current good customer. So if they drag us to New Jersey to tear down a chicken farm that caught fire, we'll go do that job for them. Otherwise, I don't really want to be in the Northeast. A lot of you stuff, it's a different market that we really haven't been very successful penetrating outside of very targeted— you're, you know, we're bringing you here. Um, but we, we try to stay sort of Florida, Virginia, Virginia over to Texas. We've done a job or two in Texas, but Texas is a, is a pretty competitive market. There's a lot of, um, you know, there's a lot of established guys there. But, you know, in all these sort of, I guess, B and C markets that you have, like the Birmingham's and the Chattanooga's, and there's not a lot of guys in those markets that can do a big demo job because there's not enough demo there to support a big demo guy. So, you know, if everybody's traveling, uh, to Charlottesville, Virginia, then we compete pretty well. If we try to go to Dallas it's a lot harder because there's big guys in Dallas that don't have to, you know, they don't have to leave home, they don't have to put their guys in hotels, and it just makes us less competitive. So we, you know, we sort of stay the Southeast unless you bring me specifically to somewhere because I did a good job for you in the past, or if it's kind of a B or C market where we know that everybody there is going to be traveling and we can compete well. Um, and that's kind of how we kind of break up our, you know, our opportunities. If you were gonna— we do about half our work in Atlanta. On the, on the contracting fee, contracting side. All of our scrap businesses here, because, you know, that's a very local— you know, scrap doesn't travel very far before you start losing money in freight. So you just— I mean, and we're not big non-fair traders, we don't do any of that kind of stuff. So all of our scrap is Atlanta-based, and then the rest of it is about half and half right now. We're, you know, in, in 3 or 4 states now doing stuff, and then we got some good stuff going at home too. So Very cool.

And then, so how small of a job for just the demolition side, which I assume is the majority of your business at this point, and you can correct me if that's not it, but—

The demo is about 65, and then the scrap and the trucking, the demo environmental are about 65, the scrap and the trucking are about the other 35. So again, you know, we have about 80% of our work is repeat customer. So if one of those guys has a $10,000 job that they need us to do for them, we'll go do it. But we really don't want, That's really what we consider more customer service than profitable work. And so we'll do those. But otherwise, you get below $50,000 and you really start losing your economies of scale to show up and get going and get mobilized and all that. So that's really— we don't want to do much below that if we're really going to do it. Yeah.

That totally makes sense. Well, it sounds like it's all about these— you've taken this thing that's really I always look at contracting, the problem with it is very much project-based work and it's feast or famine, but you've really turned it into recurring revenue in a way that seems like it's added a bunch of stability to your ability to grow to be 160 people. Otherwise, probably impossible.

Michael Girdley Yeah, it's tough. I don't want to oversell the— I mean, it is still very much a, you're only as good as your last job and you've all got to be digging and scratching and staying competitive. I mean, it's It is definitely not, you know, when you look at the, the guys that trade in these spaces on the, on the sell side, the multiples do not support any of a recurring revenue theme. But it is, you know, the reputation and your, your, your quality of work with sort of your core customer definitely, you know, definitely helps smooth out your earnings some, you know. It's still a fight for every job, but it's— you have to fight a little bit less hard as you continue to grow.

So You mentioned sell-side guys, so investment bankers and brokers. The vertically integrated demolition folks like that, where are they trading these days in terms of multiples and stuff like that?

Again, it's very niche and there's almost no public data at all on any of this stuff. So the multiples that these guys are getting that I know that people have traded at are sub-5 on EBITDA, and that's typically just contracting, most of them are not looking for the complication of 4 or 5 vertically integrated service-based businesses that are serving different customers. And so if you were just to peel off our fee contracting side, I think we'd be pretty lucky with some pretty good fixed asset thrown in to get a 5. The problem I think for the PE guys that seems to surface is just they want a consistent story, they want consistent growth and consistent margin, and that's just Quarter to quarter, I mean, you can just have some pretty good swings based on a big project pushing a couple months. It's just not the predictability of the revenue streams, and it's just not a super attractive private equity play, and you don't see a lot of them. Alloy is one that rolled up some guys in our market, and they've— I mean, it seems like they've been fairly successful. It's hard to know outside looking in on privately held company, but they've certainly taken and took 4 or 5 companies and they've got close to a national footprint, I believe, now. And I think they're doing over $100 million in sales. And so I think they got a pretty good thing. And they're just trying to go upmarket and sell to that next guy with a better EBITDA at a higher multiple. And I hope they do it. I mean, I haven't seen many people do it and succeed. So I hope they're the ones that set the, you know, set the tone and do it right.

Well, I was just trying to think what— it doesn't sound like there's a lot of opportunity to have a national brand, or maybe there is, but you've got to— since a lot of it is done as subcontracting, you've got all of these, the general contractors who are accustomed to, okay, we're running a process, we're getting 4 bids. Okay.

Yep.

We're doing a cost-plus deal like this is We have to get multiple bids. So I was just trying to think what economies of scale they could get or efficiencies of scale, and it's hard to put my head around it.

The biggest demo company is NorthStar. They were a roll-up of 2 or 3, and their— and ENR claims they do $600 million a year or so. The bulk of what they're doing is big power plant and nuclear decommissioning projects that last 2 to 5 years or maybe longer. So they do have you know, a good sort of forward-looking, you know, revenue stream that they're pulling against. And that, you know, that they're in a different league. We know we're nowhere, you know, nowhere near them. But, you know, once you kind of get out of the top, you know, I mean, there's a few national players, and once you kind of get out of them, it's, it's regional or maybe super regional, but it's, it's still very fragmented across markets. And so it's, you know, which obviously is, is not all bad. I mean, that's why guys like me have an opportunity to compete, right? But those guys, they're kind of doing— they're focused on a different segment of the market than us. Yeah.

Well, we have here in San Antonio, there's a pretty famous general contractor named Zachary. I don't know if you've run across them, but they did the same thing. They, you know, back when they were early on, they were doing more commoditized style services. And now you just see them doing very narrow things. It's like, oh, you're going to build the stadium? Like, where are your guys? Are you building an office building? Like, call into the 85 other folks. And it's— It's a really niche— it's a really smart way to create a niche for yourself and potentially defensible position because I mean, you're probably not the guy to do a nuclear power plant decommissioning.

We're not. I wish we were, but we're not.

Uh, well, it depends on who you talk to. We need more of those in this country anyway. Very interesting. So to some extent, by being this vertically integrated beast, which helps smooth out your cash flow and in the end make your life better, You've created a business that someday— you still seem young, but someday is going to be— it's going to hurt you when you try to sell that thing.

Yeah. And, you know, I've always been a guy that, that when I add something, I'm adding it to add a margin of safety for the job, right? So we add the trucking, and instead of paying somebody else a profit on that trucking, that profit can either go to the demo company or it can provide a little bit of margin of safety on our, on our estimate where we missed 10 loads and Instead of losing money on the job, we just didn't make what we thought we were going to make. And so, and it's the same thing with the scrap. I'm getting a higher price than my competitors, which again, I can pass on, or I can kind of look at it and say, hey, look, I'm, I'm going to bid this like the rest of the market looks at this, and I'm going to have a little bit of safety. And maybe the market's turning and going down $40 a ton next month where that's going to hurt this guy. We're still going to make it through at the same, you know, the same gross margin on the job. So it The integration provides just these little pockets of safety where, you know, you've got a little bit of margin that you haven't necessarily stuck right into the job, you know, so that, you know, because stuff always comes up. And if you cannot go back to your customer when stuff goes up, when stuff comes up, then, you know, they're, you know, they're kind of pregnant with you once they're in the deal. And if you can, if you can make it, you know, less painful by being able to absorb some of that, then I think it's a benefit to everybody. So yeah, change orders are a good way to lose a customer, especially from the abatement guys. We're the first guy out there. So if you get a change order day 2, it's just— it leaves a bad taste in everybody's mouth.

You know, let's start this off on the wrong foot. Okay, we got you. So as you think about opportunities to take your business kind of to the next level and stuff, like what, what's on your mind? Does it do, do some of those, you know, do you graduate towards bigger deals as much as you can? Are you going to open up you know, in another city, but, you know, with another hub somewhere. I mean, I assume Florida is always knocking stuff down. Just curious how you're thinking about that and the opportunity for you in the future.

We had an unsuccessful attempt at a Jacksonville office that we recently closed. It just was a— I learned a lot and it was not one that worked out. And we've got a guy that we're backing in Charlotte right now. So, you know, our plan is geographic. Like, we just— if you want to compete in the market, you got to have boots on the ground. You can't just sit in Atlanta and, and understand what's going on in the Charlotte market or the— so, you know, we're sort of starting off with a sales guy, estimator that, that is there meeting with customers and trying to kind of build enough of a critical mass that it's, all right, now let's get into a small office and get some crews and get, you know, support it from here until it's established. And, you know, we— I mean, that's obviously a very, you know, geographic is, is just sort of the low-hanging fruit, easy push. We've sort of vertically integrated to the point that I think makes sense. I mean, other guys, you know, near you, like Cherry Companies, they're a big demo company in Houston, and they had a huge concrete recycling division that they sold for $175 million. I think they were doing $175 million in revenue, they had $37 million in EBITDA, and they sold it for almost $300 million, 12 facilities. So, and they're, they're a big demo guy, so they got, you know, better than 8 times on that. But somebody, I mean, but that's a unique— they had a really good footprint, they had great great assets in that market. So Cherry, you know, they're, they're one of the guys that— they're a demo guy that vertically integrated into concrete crushing in a big way. I actually don't know their story. They may have been concrete first demos, but anyway, they flipped that business out, had 12 locations, and, you know, that was a really good exit for them, I thought, at 8 times for, you know, that kind of business. So, um, there are, there are success stories, uh, here and there that are sprinkled throughout the demo. And, uh, and, and then there's guys that do, you know, portable toilets and Those kind of site service stuff, fencing, that kind of all bolts on pretty nicely. So there's a lot of different sort of related verticals that people jump into that are kind of building off of that demo contracting or build into the demo from some other vertical. So we're definitely not unique in that way. Yeah.

Well, my co-host, one of the businesses you're in, my co-host, Bill D'Alessandro, for the other podcast, Acquisition Anonymous, available on podcast apps everywhere. And you're a listener, so thank you. But he loves the roll-off business. For the longest time, the dumpster roll-off business episode was our most listened to episode of the whole show, of the whole thing. So this is super fascinating in terms of— So as you think back around Jacksonville, maybe I'm probing something that wasn't that much fun. Shuttering an office is never fun. So it seems like you learned some stuff. In that process and your Charlotte stuff sounds like you have a guy that you're backing that is kind of more of an equity partnership. You know, what do you think about in retrospect you learned from Jacksonville?

We looked at Jacksonville and got kind of fooled, honestly. I mean, it is a, there was a really well ingrained competitor there that had a C&D transfer station, concrete recycling and—

What is C&D, I'm sorry?

It's construction debris. That's just basically anything—

That's all the stuff that comes out.

You tear down a house, it's basically the whole house is C&D. And, you know, we just, we lost consistently for months any job that we really wanted. We didn't do as, we felt like there was enough room in that market. And we started spreading, you know, 100 miles outside of that market saying, look, we gotta get away from these guys. They're just, they've got us kind of licked here. And, you know, Florida, the healthcare and hospitality stuff is sort of the driver down there. And, you know, both of those things took a pretty big kick during COVID And honestly, the guy that I had down there running it just got another opportunity that, he felt was a better opportunity because he'd been struggling. And he, you know, he left. And when he left, that was sort of the end of the Jacksonville experiment because he was the guy that we put down there to sort of get it churning. So it was just, you know, the market was tough. We didn't do as good a job. And Jacksonville's a smaller market. I mean, it's the largest city in the Southeast by population. It's got a million people in the city of Jacksonville, but the city of Jacksonville is massive. I mean, the only reason that is, is because Jacksonville stretches for, 100 miles in 3 directions. So it's just, it really just our initial due diligence on it just led us to believe there was more opportunity in that market than we found when we got there, just from total opportunities and then definitely from what we closed. So we've done work in Charlotte, we spent more time there, we feel more comfortable there. And the guy we've got there has been there for about 8 years. So we feel like we're better positioned there than we were. And it just, it was, you live, you learn.

Yeah, well, one thing, a CEO of one of my businesses that I'm involved in, we opened— we were just in San Antonio, we were going to open in Dallas, and he went around and talked to everybody and said, okay, what do I need to know about opening my first branch office? And universally, the advice was take the amount of time you think you need to spend up there as the CEO and multiply it by 4, and then plan on doubling that again. So for the first 12 weeks or so, he was in Dallas 9 of those 12 weeks. Just made it his mission to get ingrained in that market. And so every time I'm in a regional business and I'm like, okay, well, just so you know, like get your ass on a plane, you need to be up there in Dallas or Jacksonville or Charlotte, or have somebody who is, it sounds like your Charlotte setup is one where the other person has equity and is gonna think more like an owner than your employee who left you in the lurch.

Ah, yeah, you gotta hope so. But you know what, at the end of the day, you know, there's a lot of things I could have done differently myself to help make that office more successful. I mean, I'd love to always put it on somebody else, but I didn't give it the attention. We had a lot of opportunity that was just good opportunity, and it was always kind of the second or third thing on the list. So it just didn't work, but we're already seeing some good stuff in Charlotte, so I'm hopeful that we'll see that continue to grow.

Yeah, that's awesome. I don't have any of the answers either. When I was running our family business, I tried to open up in Houston 3 different times. So you're just like, all right, something's wrong here. Something's not working out. And I think it's me. That's what I figured out.

Right. I may find the same thing to be true.

So what, coming to a close here, what would surprise people the most about your industry? When you tell people about it, they're shocked. Or is there anything that comes to mind of things that would be surprising?

You haven't said the only thing that everyone says at every cocktail party. How do you blow stuff up? That's all the only thing that anyone ever asked me. And almost no one blows stuff up. It's less than 1% of all demos. Uh, the US is big and flat, and there's not many buildings that are 11, 12 stories tall that need to go away. And actually, everybody loves to put a giant sign on that, on that, right? I mean, that's the ultimate, like, put yourself The guys that actually, you know, if you've got a $2 million implosion that you're going to do, the guy that actually does the implosion may get $150,000 or $200,000 of that. There's guys all over the country that just fly around and do and basically design it, go set the charges, get it all done. They push the button and they go back home. And so it's— they're actually, you know, from a technical difficulty, all that kind of stuff, they're typically for the guy, you know, for me, the guy that's cleaning it up, it's really not a, you know, they're not, they're not very challenging, not very— I mean, they can be, but for the most part, it's you're putting most of the risk on somebody else, you know. So that is, uh, you know, they make for good content, but they're, they're really not the bread and butter of, of what people are doing all day, every day.

So, well, it just shows you how prepared of an interviewer I was that I didn't ask that. Of course I do that. Uh, well, you know, my family grew up in, I grew up in the explosive business. That was my first CEO job selling fireworks. So I would get, oh, business must be booming. Like I just, so over all those jokes, like, ah, come on people. Hilarious. Well, this has been awesome. How can listeners support you, follow your journey? Do you tweet, LinkedIn, any of that kind of stuff?

We have, uh, we, we, we are on LinkedIn. Um, Green Circle Demo. And we do have an Instagram. I think we have like 11 followers. So if anybody on here wants number 12 or 13, it's not— we just, we haven't seen the social media really, really turn up much. You know, I don't think people that have, you know, good jobs typically find those guys on Instagram. But, you know, we've, we've— somebody made one at some point. So yeah, that's, that's, you know, if, if there's a, there's an old, old something somewhere that you need to go away, we're, we're always interested in looking at it. That's awesome.

Well, I mean, just, just hearing the depth of thought and perspective that you have about the business, it's not surprising at all. You've been really successful. So kudos to you and it's been great to hear about it.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it, man.

All right, man. Well, thank you, Sam. We will click stop on the recording and then, then that'll be it. So thanks for being here. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.