The Freight Industry Media+Data Business - Craig Fuller, CEO of FreightWaves

Hey, Michael here. You will now hear some episodes of the Michael Girdley Show that we had branded differently, called Unusual Profits or some such like that. Same show, same person, just me interviewing people and producing content that could be helpful on your journey and mine as well. So with no further ado, here's the episode. Hey, Michael here. Sponsor for today's show is actually a product that I'm a part of called DM Bridge. And what DMBridge is, uh, is a service that we built, uh, to solve the problem that Twitter's direct messaging functionality is a total mess. So we built DMBridge to help you fix that. Um, a lot of the other solutions, uh, do things like requiring you to install a whole nother inbox. We didn't want another inbox, so we created DMBridge. And what it does is it takes all of your Twitter DMs and has them appear inside of your email inbox. So you can reply to them just like it's a regular email. You see them just like it's a regular email. You can search them later like it's one of your regular emails, all just by using DMBridge. So, uh, we're currently live with the product. Uh, would love for you to sign up and become a customer, uh, and check it out. So you can find that at dmbridge.app, uh, and go on there, put in your name, uh, and be either part of the beta or join us as part of the live use of the product. And again, check it out, dmbridge.app.

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Welcome to the How My Business Works podcast. I am your host, Michael Girdley. I am joined this week by a very impressive guest reporting live from the top of a mountain in Tennessee, Mr. Craig Fuller of FreightWaves. By the way, Craig, I'm totally paranoid about mispronouncing people's names and have them look at me on the Zoom and be mad. Hopefully, I batted 100% there.

Well, the mining is pretty easy. Craig's hard to— Cool.

Well, you run a super interesting business that's, I think, a niche media business. I'd love to hear what does FreightWaves do and what is the vision for the business?

Yeah, so FreightWaves is the largest provider of data and information to the global logistics market. So the logistics industry is about $9.6 trillion, is 12% of global GDP. So it's not, it's not really niche. A lot of people say, oh, that's an interesting niche. In many ways, logistics is one of the most important industries globally. 40% of the global economy is tied in logistics-dependent industries, and effectively we give information to participants in the market so they can make better decisions. So we've seen this with COVID or in a post-COVID world, everyone has experienced some level of disruptions in their life, whether it was toilet paper not being in stock or meat not being available or personal protective equipment not being available. All of those things we all sort of were impacted by. More recently, we've seen the Suez Canal get shut down. We've seen pipelines in the US get disrupted through cyber. Issues. We've seen Texas electricity grid go offline. But those are things that are constantly disrupting supply chains. And folks that are in our industry, which there are, you know, about 70 million people globally that are— have the job of being in logistics, have to deal with all of these issues.

Yeah, super interesting. So who, who is the typical customer for y'all? Is it somebody who's a freight manager in industry, or it's the, the trucking and logistics companies themselves, or is it a variation of all those folks? Who typically buying from y'all?

Yeah, so we have two businesses. We have a media business, which is advertising-driven. So we generate money like every other media company that isn't subscription, where people pay to advertise to our audience. So we get about a million uniques that tune in or watch our— read our content online every month. And then we get about the same amount of uniques that watch our TV and download our podcast each month. And so those are folks that are in logistics that are interested in what's happening or folks that are buying logistics services. So it could be the head of supply chain at a, you know, a large big box retailer. It could be the head supply chain at an auto company or an OEM. But it also could be a transportation provider, whether it's everybody from a truck driver to a warehouse worker, all the way up to a CEO of a Fortune 100 logistics operation. So our, you know, our focus is informing those individuals about what's happening in this really important industry and giving them context on how they can manage their business. And If you have a pipeline that goes out and you have to get products to consumer stores, but you can't get fuel for those trucks, what do you do? And so you tune into us to find out that information where we have market experts and we use data to inform those decisions. So that's our media business. Then our data business, which is a recurring SaaS subscription business, we provide upstream real-time data on what's happening. So we're tracking the global economy, specifically the freight economy. And through that information we're providing, people take our data, it's upstream data, which means we're tracking the first instances of when something happens, when a truck is ordered or when inventory is ordered. We're tracking those transactions and managing to get that information to providers out in the market.

Yeah, no, I totally dig it. So in terms of the split of the business, is it revenue-wise, is it mostly the media stuff or the— I can see how that—

It's actually 50/50, which is It sounds like a convenient number for me to give you, but it was never intentional. It's just that both businesses are growing effectively the same rate. One month, the media business will be slightly larger, and the next month, the SaaS business will catch up and be larger than it. It's just a function of the fact that this is a fast-growing business. We're growing in excess of 100%. For each business, it's doubling— has doubled in the past year and is accelerating. They're both growing really fast and they happen to be equal sizes in terms of scope, but effectively it's the same business because you're providing information. Oftentimes we're called the Bloomberg of freight because if you think of Bloomberg's business model, they have a very large media business. That's how most common sort of mainstream people know of Bloomberg for their Bloomberg articles, Bloomberg Businessweek, or Bloomberg TV. Whereas folks in financial services, the most valuable piece of their business is in their data. And their terminal business, which is on a subscription basis. We operate the same way. We're just a much younger company. We're focused on the physical economy versus the financial economy.

Yeah. Bloomberg started with the terminals for 20 years before their media business. What came first for y'all?

We were in media out of necessity, I would argue, versus convenience. When we first started the business, we We're trying to talk about this market in a way that a business using data that is commonly found on Wall Street or commonly found in other types of markets, and the media businesses that existed in our space just didn't know how to articulate what we were doing. It was a difficult concept to combine this real-time data. We realized that the media businesses that are out in our space were publishers that ran on a print timeline and Real-time changes in the market were sort of alien to them. It was something that they weren't built to do. Their job is to write articles centered around press releases, which they have as much as a 2-week sort of lead on a press release. Or if a truck manufacturer releases a new edition of a truck, they're able to plan that out weeks or months in advance, and they start working with the OEM describing the vehicle and pictures and all that. And it's long-form journalism typically. Whereas if you're in business media, you wanna know what's happening right now. You know, today, as an example, pipeline is an issue. If you go back a month ago or a couple months ago, we had the Suez Canal that was getting shut down. People are looking for real-time information. Tomorrow it could be a major weather system that hits the US. It could be an earthquake. It could be a terrorist attack. It could be a war. All of these things happen and they happen globally. They happen all the time. And so people in our space are just dealing with those, with that reality at all times. Yeah.

Very interesting. And then on the SaaS side, are you guys just selling to people in logistics and whatnot, or are there also financial industry folks?

We sell to everybody from hedge funds to large tier 1, large-scale enterprise shippers, the big box retailers, the beverage companies, companies that where logistics is a big item. They spend a lot of money on transportation services. Or we sell to the providers in the space.

So how, you know, so kind of walking through the flow of say the data side, the SaaS side, you know, there's, let's say we're taking containers coming on a Maersk ship coming out of China, right? They're coming out of Shanghai. So you're gathering that data in terms of who the shippers are, what containers are on that ship, when that ship's leaving, did it leave on time, all that kind of stuff. And that's all publicly accessible.

That's less important about individual shippers, who they are, and more important about what's happening from a supply and demand standpoint. Okay. So most freight is routed within a couple of days of when, uh, the shipment's ready or when it's ordered. So, uh, most freight isn't routed months in advance. Now, it may feel differently if you're ordering something because you're lining up, you know, if you're an importer, you're lining up a forwarder to handle your shipments from China, maybe weeks before they move. But the actual execution happens within days of when that shipment is moved. And the carrier booking may change. It may go from, say, Maersk to Hapag-Lloyd. We're talking about ocean shipping. And the reason that it happens is there's a finite amount of capacity that exists in the world, and that capacity is constantly looking to be fully utilized, if not overbooked. And so the, the carriers themselves, their job is to maximize the amount of space that's sold on that ship. So there's always these disruptions that happen where cargo could be left behind, it could be sitting on the dock, it could be delayed, uh, and that's just a function of how supply chains work. And so our job is to help interpret what is causing those disruptions and help companies figure out what's the right price in the market that's going to ensure that product moves, and then also what is the likelihood that at this current price, you're either paying too much or paying too little. Got it.

Well, and one of the things I've been reading on Twitter lately, and which, you know, is kind of a bad sign reading stuff on Twitter, but people have been talking about the bullwhip effect of how things at one end of the supply chain can be small at the time. For example, people canceling orders at the Taiwan— at TSMC, the Taiwanese chip manufacturers, and that causing this huge bullwhip in terms of spike in auto prices, because suddenly there's a shortage of chips down at the far end of the spectrum, where this, you know, 0.01% of the thing is there. So is that the sort of thing that people are subscribing to you to try to recognize those future problems, right? And see where, okay.

Yeah, that's a little bit. Yeah, so we do everything from look at the future, what new technology is going to disrupt it. Like, how are drones and aerial drones going to disrupt our lives over the next decade? How are autonomous or electric vehicles going to do it? So that's sort of longer-facing. Sort of context and information. But really the sort of cusp of what we do is what's happening over the next couple of days and why are things happening. So certainly the semiconductor shortage was something that we were talking about last summer, uh, that a lot of the auto manufacturers, uh, didn't either took serious or didn't take corrective action to sort of address that. Um, but those are the types of things that we're focused on. But a lot of what we do is actually the here and now is what's happening right now over the next week. Like, what do you need to be knowing? What do you What do you need to know right now to help manage your business? And that seems a little weird for people who are outside this industry, but even the largest companies in the space don't have enough context to what's taking place in their business. They just weren't big. It's very fragmented. So it's not, you know, and I'm talking about the UPSs and FedExs and, you know, they, they represent collectively, if you took UPS and FedEx, 2% of global transportation. These are massive companies in the move a lot of freight, but they're very small relative to the entire pie. And so they don't have a ton of context to what's happening in every piece of this transportation ecosystem. Uh, and so they depend on people like us to help interpret all of these signals from across the supply chain to help their business be more productive and more profitable and frankly avoid disruption. So we have full-time meteorologists that's looking at meteorological data, looking for weather disruptions. We're monitoring, we actually monitor Twitter for signals of airport shutdowns because of riots or, you know, bombings that may take place because of terrorist attacks in South Africa or somewhere in Africa. Those types of things. We are essentially the network operating center for a lot of logistics companies in terms of looking at all of the things that could potentially or are disrupting their business. And because it's a, we're monitoring how all of this stuff interconnects, we have an advanced view on what is likely to happen. We're also not only looking at public-facing databases, we're actually— the core part of our business is looking at the messages between companies. So when a big box retailer is ordering trucks or ordering shipments, we see that data, we strip out the identifiable information so it's not identified who it is. Then we build indexes and signals to look for any abnormalities in that data that can tell us that there is something interesting happening in this market. And the idea is helping to speed up that intelligence so that the people who can do something about it are better informed.

Super interesting. And then, so both the lines of business, they're direct sales models. You guys have a sales force going out?

Yeah, we have a sales force. The media business has a sales force that sells advertising, not typically through agencies, and we don't do programmatic, like we don't use Google AdSense or anything like that to generate ads. Ads. We sell advertising to companies ourselves. And then on the data side, that's through a sales model. And mostly half of our business, it's enterprise SaaS. Half of it comes inbound. A large piece of it is generated because of our media presence. We're putting charts and graphs and talking about concepts through our data that's informed by our data. And that's what generates a lot of inbound interest. So sort of top of the funnel is driven by our media business. And that Having people read about it or hear about it, then they're like, okay, I want to know what's happening. So when we're talking about a border being shut down, if you're an auto manufacturer and you're dependent upon parts supplies, the president threatening a tweet, border shutdown, all of a sudden warehouse prices just accelerate. This is interesting. When Donald Trump tweeted about shutting down the Mexican border, the very next day, warehousing in places like Laredo and El Paso capacity just completely shrunk.

But it's so cool. Like, you know, one of the strategies for SaaS businesses to get customers is to go into content marketing. Like HubSpot is a great example of that, right? The CRM. And like, that's typically a loss leader for them. They're not making money on it.

It's very profitable for us. So we look at SaaS as what we call negative CAC, which is you have your customer acquisition costs in a traditional sense, which is all your sales and marketing. What does it cost to acquire a customer? It's a really simple form. You take all your sales and marketing costs and you just divide the number of customers that you signed up in that, that month, and that will tell you what your CAC is per customer. Well, we generate a lot of cash flow and profit from our media business that essentially subsidizes the cost of customer acquisition. So we have something called negative CAC, which means we want to operate a business that we can essentially acquire customers for nothing. Because the media business is throwing off so much advertising dollars that it subsidizes our go-to-market on our SaaS business.

It's really genius.

It's not something that we set out to do. It just works. And I go back to the Bloomberg business model. They do the same thing. I mean, I sat in a presentation a year, 2 years ago with the head of marketing for Bloomberg who said when she arrived at Bloomberg to run marketing, she was the first CMO they had ever hired. They had 3 people in marketing at the company. It was an $8 billion company and they had 3 people They were doing PowerPoint presentations for clients. That was what marketing for them. They didn't have brand marketing. For them, the media business, their radio and their TV and their publications were effectively their marketing engine. They've been, particularly over the last couple of years, they've really turned that media business into a very important part of their business, couple hundred million in revenue. Profitable and very profitable for Bloomberg, where historically it hadn't been. They were subsidizing the media business through their terminal business or data business to build this media business, where we've done the opposite. We've taken our media business and it's subsidizing the go-to-market on our SaaS business.

It's super genius. I think it's really— the entrepreneur in me is like, what are the other niches that maybe as big as transportation logistics, but—

I mean, construction, you could do it. You take these large markets. I'm actually convinced that if you have a big enough market that has a big enough community, you can apply this model to really anything. At the end of the day, I think there's this trend. I mean, we talked about HubSpot. They just bought The Hustle as a media business dedicated to millennial business news. It's the competitor to Morning Brew, which got bought by Business Insider, And so I think there's this trend that we're seeing where if you have a very strong community, if you've built this community and that community identifies with you, and it's a certain set of people with sort of similar requirements or buying criteria, it's very easy to take in a product that the community would naturally want to consume and make it a great way to acquire and engage customers. I think the model we call content-supported SaaS is something that we'll see more and more of those. You've seen it even outside of SaaS. Perhaps one of the best cases of this is Penn National's gambling business. The casino bought Barstool Sports, which at the time, people were like, "Why did they spend $400 million for—" It wasn't even the whole company, but they spent $400 million to buy majority share of Barstool Sports, it seemed a little weird, but if you followed the Barstool Sports and Penn National and looked at the stock over the last couple of quarters, it's done exceptionally well. There are discussions of other sports-related media properties that casino operators are looking to pick up. It's the same reason. The thing about media that's compelling is if it has a really strong connected audience, it's very easy if, if the product that you're selling is something that is naturally well built and helps the community, it's very easy to provide engagement, it's very easy to immerse them into the product experience. And frankly, build this really effective funnel. And I think that's what we've discovered with our business. We spend no, hardly any money on outside advertising, um, even though we're adding 30, you know, 35 to 40 new clients a month at an average contract of about $25,000. And, you know, you think about that, it's a new— a million dollars of SaaS revenue a month of new logo that's simply coming from the effectiveness of our, our media business without spending a dime on customer acquisition.

Yeah, it's super cool. And so you— what was the genesis? You founded the company after coming from industry, correct? I'm born in the industry.

So my father started what's one of the largest trucking companies in the US and my uncle started another. So my dad's business is like the 5th largest and my uncle's is the 8th largest trucking company in the US. So I've been around it. I actually left the trucking industry because I didn't want to work for my family and went into payments, spent about 10 years in payments. And in payments businesses, I saw the same thing as there was this guy in the industry that had built a conference because there wasn't a conference in this emerging industry. He ended up building a trade association, built a media business to bring everybody. He sold his payments business to a very large company. A couple years later, he did it again. He went back, took the media business, and built the second processing business, and then ended up building built another conference out of it, sort of a second generation. Then ended up selling that business to Google, but part of— and Google ends up spending $300 million or something and shuts it down 6 months later, but part of what the industry believed was the reason he was able to do that was because he had built this sort of— he was the center of the ecosystem, sort of the godfather of the ecosystem. That left an impression on me that If you control these, if you're in this ecosystem and you're creating this community around this ecosystem and you have some degree of control of the narrative of what that community— part of that community, then it's very easy to find derivative aspects to it or derivative benefit. That's how we've looked at our businesses. We focus on building something for the community, drive engagement, and then how do we monetize it? There's lots of ways to do that.

Yeah, super smart.

And so then, I mean, you could do this. I mean, Red Bull is another example that's done— the Red Bull Media House has done an exceptional job. It is, it's a really bad-tasting energy drink, but it's a cool brand because of their media alignment, right? They sponsor all these extreme sports, and it fits really well with this definition of a brand.

Well, and they have the people that do the launch off with the parkour dude.

Yeah, they do the launch off of the bridges and like Places like Austin and Nashville, they own a Formula 1 racing team. I mean, I love brands that use media in a way that is unexpected and they insource their own marketing. It's not something that you can go— I think a lot of companies do content marketing, but they try to market their own products. I think that the fallacy in that is people will read into it exactly what you've done is, We spend a lot of time talking about the rest of our industry and creating context to it. So it's very easy to layer in our own products as we need to.

So 2016 was when you started the company by yourself? Yeah, it really went commercial in '17, but that was the born-on date of the business. And you've gone down the venture capital path?

Yeah, we've raised about $90 million in venture capital. We'll announce $16 million in VC through another round of funding. So we've raised quite a bit of venture capital.

Cool. I assume that's been fun.

It's a process. It is interesting because you hear horror stories. If you've never done it before, and I had never successfully raised venture capital, I tried before, it's a world that is in many ways somewhat mysterious to people who are on the outside. But it's like anything else, it's networking. And what I tell founders that are wanting to raise capital with VCs is the best thing you can do is start, because a lot of people are scared to make those calls or outreaches. And you're going to get blown out of the first 100 meetings you take. It's just, that's just sort of the way it works. If you're not, if you haven't worked at a startup and seen fundraising and you try to go at it yourself, the first couple hundred meetings, you may get blown out and rejected. But like everything else, you just stay after it and eventually you'll figure out what is resonating. I remember we went out and raised— we're trying to raise money and we're very unsuccessful in our early days. I just had this crisis of like, I was walking into Walmart and I was looking at the Walmart greeter and being like, "I'm going to be doing that in 6 weeks because we're out of cash." My wife and I were getting married and I was out of money and I couldn't even afford to take you to a honeymoon. I used a credit card to do a honeymoon and we were completely out of cash. We stopped paying employees and doing everything we could to do to stay alive. I just had this crisis because I kept pitching venture capitalists and I kept getting rejected. I realized there was something wrong with our business model. Basically, just rewrote the entire deck and said, "I'm going to start over." I gave up everything that I thought I knew about my business, what I wanted it to become, and started to look at what was resonating with people. That was the bottom, if you will. Then we were able to raise capital. Yeah.

Well, I joke, I have succeeded in raising money from other people. I have failed in raising money from other people. In both regards, it was the best free business consulting I've ever gotten in my whole life.

It's wonderful because you go in there and you pitch a venture capitalist. You find out what's going on in your industry, What do they think of the industry? And then what are your competitors doing that you should be aware of? And I think that's just something that as you go through the process, they're very good at educating you on the things you should be thinking about. I think for the first 6, 7 months, I just didn't want to hear it. And then eventually I just had this crisis realizing I wasn't going to raise the money if I didn't start listening. And I did, and then it ended up working. But it is a process.

I see there's about a dozen investors on the website. Who was the first believer?

Fontanalis, which is Bill Ford's mobility fund, was the first large check. They did a seed round. Then we had a venture investor out of Atlanta called Engage Ventures, which has a bunch of corporate LPs. For $75,000, they got effectively 3% of the company. Their $75,000 investment today is worth something like $8, $9 million. So they've had some insane returns on their money, but it's the nature of the beast.

Yeah, that's great. Well, and the company, at least on LinkedIn, has 170 or so people working there.

Yeah, about 165. It's about right. Yeah, that's great.

And looking at your view, it looks like you're doing okay too.

So congratulations on all that. We're doing okay. Yeah. I mean, look, it's— It is fun running a successful business. I think as a founder, and I know this show is intended to be for founders, founders, it's interesting because there's always this sort of, as your business gets successful, it's sort of the dream to be successful, right? But all of a sudden the drama dries up, right? You have money in the bank, you have customers, you have employees, things are going really well, and you've hired people who are much better at jobs than you are. And I've sort of faced this and I've gotten through it, but I sort of faced, the business got really boring really quick. We raised Last summer, we raised our last major round of funding that would take us to profitability, and the business started to really hone, and you're in rhythm. I got really depressed because I was like, "This is really depressing. I'm not needed anymore. It's like my kid is going to college." It was very emotional for me because I guess my own ego was one, or just that addiction to drama. In the early days of a business, You're trying to put out fires and it's like everything's near death. Like anything can take you out. Like a key employee quits, uh, you're out of business. A competitor comes and creates the same product, you can be out of business. Uh, a key vendor cuts you off, you're out of business. You run out of cash, you're out of business. There's like all these things that founders have to think of, the 100 different reasons that your business can go under. And then you reach a stage, and we reached it last year, where None of that could ever kill us. And I think there's a saying, you get to $10 million ARR, $10 million revenue, and nothing can kill you. You're like a cockroach. No matter what happens, you can't be killed in terms of recurring revenue. And that was where we sort of reached that milestone. And I got really depressed and I was like, I want to sell the business. And it was like all these things. And I just, I realized the problem was there was no drama. There was nothing for me to do. There was no fires to put out. So I just took some time to think about what I wanted to do with the business and how I wanted to contribute, was thinking about new markets we could go after. But it was a very strange feeling to be depressed, even though everything was going great. Right.

Everything is awesome and nobody's happy. Everybody in the company was happy.

I was not. I was very depressed because I was I just got bored and I got really sad, frankly. And I think it's— I think— and I realized it was sort of this— it wasn't burnout. I thought I was burned out, but I think it's more of just boredom. I think founders were used to literally every day being in a near-death experience, particularly those early days. Right. We just didn't—

that wasn't going to happen. Yeah, it's— I mean, it's super interesting and I'm curious how it shakes out for you. My personal reaction to how I deal with all that is I just start from day one understanding there's a certain period of evolution in the company's existence where I'll just be a board member. That's just where I'm good. About the time we get a CRM, that's where the types of things I'm really good at, we don't work on anymore, and somebody else is going to be better than me, and I should go work on the next thing.

Yeah. Well, I have forced myself to do it. I think for us, last year, company almost ran out of cash because we were sort of, as a venture-backed company, you do burn cash and you always plan your next funding cycle. But when COVID hit, sort of WeWork tailwinds or headwinds, if you will, and COVID, we were trying to raise money in that sort of first quarter of 2020 and it was very difficult. And so we had gone through this stage of like, oh my God, we're going to be out of money. Most founders are, at least I am, a more wartime-oriented CEO or founder where you're like, "Let's go fight. Let's figure this out." That was a thrill. Then all of a sudden, we solved it. The business started to do really well. We got additional funding that we didn't really need. It was like, "Whoa, there's no more crisis in the business." I just all of a sudden had all this free time because I'm not pitching and I'm not going on sales calls because we're not traveling. It was a very different world. Yeah, I've gotten through that existential crisis of like success, but it is, and this is such a first world problem. You know, I feel so, you feel so spoiled whining about things that are going well, but I think that's what makes founders really, really good in the early days is that we can deal with that. But it's very difficult when the business needs to be optimized and professionalized because we're not built for those days. We're definitely wartime versus peacetime operators, I think.

Man, I am so glad we did not talk about the shipping challenges at the Long Beach port. This is much more interesting. Thanks for, thanks for being so awesome with me and opening up about the whole business and your journey. It's— and the view. I mean, I could fly to Maui or I could look at what's behind you. It's pretty amazing.

So anytime you want to come do a video cast, right? Next time I'll return the favor and we can talk about, uh, what, what it's like interviewing founders. I'm curious, as you do this podcast, What is it you're hoping to accomplish?

Well, I think first of all, I'm a big believer that if you produce things that are interesting and are going to be helping other people, the universe pays you back. That's my approach to Twitter. That's my approach to recording podcasts. I want to produce interesting content that other people like me will find interesting, and then just weird stuff happens. People show up and want to invest in stuff, or I've made friends, but it's nothing like I'm selling a course or anything like that. I'm not good at direct directly asking for, like, here, I'm— I have nothing to sell. Like, that's the truth. Like, I'm not selling advertising, I have nothing. But the more I help other people through doing stuff like this and make their lives better, like, it just seems like my life gets better 10 times whatever I do for other people. So that's, that's the goal. It's just this karmic view of the universe. Like, right, that's awesome, right or wrong. That's it.

No, that's, that's, uh, it's really cool.

Yeah. And hopefully— so, um, love to close with a plug for the business. How can people support you? You know, FreightWaves has a website. Some of my listeners may be folks in logistics space and they should know about it.

So yeah, so freightways.com is a free website with lots of content. You can, you can go there, uh, content's always free. Um, and, uh, that's probably the best way to, uh, be a part of the community and, and learn more about our business.

Yeah, right on. Well, awesome job, and so cool to talk to you. And, uh, thanks for giving me and all of us part of your day and opening up. It is really cool. Yeah, likewise.

I appreciate your time.